Queerty is better as a member

Log in | Register

10,000 New Yorkers Turn Out to Protest Prop. 8

Columbus Circle in New York City was filled with chants of “Gay, Straight, Black, White, Marriage is a Civil Right!” as thousands of protesters came out in opposition to California’s Proposition 8, which banned same-sex marriage in California last week. The event was the largest protest outside of California so far and shows how quickly and rapidly organized opposition to Prop 8. has sprung up across the country.

Marchers began at the Mormon Temple, located just north of Lincoln Center and marched down along Broadway, shutting down traffic and overtaking Columbus Circle. LDS spokesperson Michael Otterson told the AP that the church does not understand why it is being singled out, saying “This was a very broad-based coalition that defended traditional marriage in a free and democratic election”.

The protest was organized in part by Corey Johnson, Michaelanhelo Signorile and Ann Northrop and was rapidly disseminated through social networks like MySpace, Facebook and Twitter, causing some to ask if we are entering a new age of digital activism. Seen among the protesters were Dan Savage, Whoopi Goldberg and Larry Kramer.

A nationwide protest is scheduled for this Saturday, Nov. 15th. For more information, go to www.jointheimpact.com.

We want your stories, photos and videos! Send us links in the comments and if you attended, tell us what your thoughts. We’ll be featuring some of the best of them throughout the day.


Images here, here and here.

By:           Japhy Grant
On:           Nov 13, 2008
Tagged: , , ,
  • 103 Comments
    • Michael vdB
      Michael vdB

      I understand Prop 8 was the most publicized out of the election campaign and I think it is awsome people are coming out to support the prostest! But my question is, two other states also voted on similar props…is there any coverage or support being given to them? Is this rally for them too or is it a Prop 8 rally only?

      Nov 13, 2008 at 9:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tallskin
      tallskin

      Fan-fucking-tastic! Keep it up guys and gals.

      A fuse has been lit and the brushwood has caught alight.

      Great stuff. Wish I could be there to help

      Nov 13, 2008 at 9:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Othniel
      Othniel

      It is for all of us and for our children, and also for the foster children of Arkansas, left without foster parents, because of how important it is for others to fear and hate us.

      And it helps all of so very very much.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 9:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark

      Yes, TAX ANY CHURCH that gets involved in politics. There is a separation of church and state in this country that became totally ignored because the moron in the WH.

      His singularly inept example of what a President is supposed to do caused this to happen.

      Ultimately, you can blame this on Bush – because it was HIS total and complete ignorance of the Constitution that allowed something like the passage of Prop 8.

      The Mormons simply jumped on the bandwagon of hatred.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 9:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      I attended last night with friends, gay, straight and lesbian and it has truly left me with a feeling I cannot describe. Today I feel proud of who we are and what we stood for last night and am happy to say I finally did something for our cause aside contribute my hardearned paycheck to keeping all of manhattans gay bars afloat.

      Watching couples with their children, lovers, friends and parents supporting their gay children was easily one of the most powerfully emotional experiences I have had.

      I will attend City Hall again this Saturday with my mother and I encourage the rest of you to do the same. It feels good to participate in something you know is right.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 9:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • akristof
      akristof

      It was a great night, hope to see everyone on Saturday at City Hall at 1:30pm

      http://eatreadplay.blogspot.com/2008/11/pride.html

      Nov 13, 2008 at 9:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Woof
      Woof

      @Michael vdB: The difference is Gay Marriage was legal and the right was taken away. We are leveraging the “taking away of rights.” If doesn’t make those other props less important, but the argument is stronger in Ca.

      BTW – We here on the left coast thank you on the East coast for the support!

      Nov 13, 2008 at 9:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Woof
      Woof

      Correction: West Coast thanks East Coast.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 9:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anarchos
      Anarchos

      @Michael vdB: It’s because California granted marriage equality only to see it be taken away. That was not the case in Arizona or Florida–in fact I’m pretty sure gay marriage was already illegal in both states so the measures they passed on election day were redundancies. I think these marches are for marriage equality in general, but Proposition 8 is a focal point for the anger people feel, the injustice.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      Now head to Harlem and protest at black churches and black owned businesses because of all the black support for prop 8 in CA.

      You don’t have the kind of consistency, bravery, or integrity, to match your bravado.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      PS

      Gay is not the new black.

      Go try that slogan at predominately black churches in Ca and NY.

      Like I said, you don’t have the stomach for that kind of “peaceful protest”.

      Attacking religion is not smart, claiming gays are the new black is less smart, not being conclusive in your protests shows your lack of bravery and your true agenda against religion in general.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • akristof
      akristof

      @G: This is no agenda against religion. And while it’s true that majority of blacks voted for Prop 8, they didn’t do so as a result of some organized systematic campaign. The mormon church, on the other hand, financed and organized efforts to take away the rights of a minority. So protestic that is very very different from attacking religion in general.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jjh
      Jjh

      thank you guys so much! I’m a native angeleno and it makes me so happy to see this happening.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mark
      mark

      NYC you look GREAT!

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @akristof:

      Ok, so you are targeting one religion because they were organized, who’s fault was it that the gays weren’t organized before the vote? Gays are attacking one religion specifically because they devoted more resources than the others?

      Actually it was a coalition of religions that were for prop 8.

      So you are attacking religion in general, mormons specifically.

      The other point is, if the black community didn’t require the same kind of organization that the mormons did to vote yes on prop 8, doesn’t that mean you are barking up the wrong tree and gays have more work to do in the black community than at mormon temples? Im pretty sure it’s less than effective to your cause to be after mormons.

      The selective outrage is telling.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ajax
      ajax

      @G:
      G, first of all, if you look at the actual election results in California, you’d find that, although a disproportinal percentage of African-Americans voted for Prop 8, the number of African-Americans who actually voted produces a statistically insignificant amount of votes for Prop 8.

      Second, if I, a Caucasian New Yorker, wanted to protest against a New Yorker of another color, I don’t have to go to Harlem, or to any other neighborhood to do it. I can knock on my neighbor’s door and talk to him.

      Please take a moment to examine your provincial and divisive notions. You may want to moderate them in light of facts.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      @G: G what you are overlooking is the fact that what the mormon church did is WRONG federally and conducted in way which they had shown absolutely no morals. (which isnt very churchlike i might add) your faith is your faith fine! but to project any type of hate on a person and to have those that follow and abide you stricly bc of faith is wrong. they raised and donated money from church members across this country that would not have been affected in any way shape or form by the allowance of gay marriage in california. by then donating a sickening amount of money to a hateful cause and that my friend is wrong. when i left my house for work this morning i kissed my boyfriend goodbye and wished him a good day and im pretty sure no one died bc of it.live your life and i will live mine. good day sir.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      @G: G what you are overlooking is the fact that what the mormon church did is WRONG federally and conducted in way which they had shown absolutely no morals. (which isnt very churchlike i might add) your faith is your faith fine! but to project any type of hate on a person and to have those that follow and abide you stricly bc of faith is wrong. they raised and donated money from church members across this country that would not have been affected in any way shape or form by the allowance of gay marriage in california. by then donating a sickening amount of money to a hateful cause and that my friend is wrong. when i left my house for work this morning i kissed my boyfriend goodbye and wished him a good day and im pretty sure no one died bc of it.live your life and i will live mine. good day sir.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @ajax:

      Black vote in CA for prop 8: 7%

      Mormon vote in CA for prop 8: 2%

      If the percentages are so insignificant, why target mormons?

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rowen
      Rowen

      G, black and hispanic voters made up a very small percentage of the electorate. However, no single black or hispanic church donated as much money, time and resources as the Mormon church did to Yes on 8. The Mormon church not only overstepped its bounds in becoming politically active like this (at least, overstepping its tax exempt boundaries) but spent the much of the campaign lying about what was going to happen/what gay folks wanted/what gay folks had already done.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @Brandon:

      “Federally”, the mormon church is well within it’s right to speak up on moral issues.

      The mormon church has conducted itself like adults and voted.

      As far as morals go, Brandon, one only needs to see how the city of San Francisco, the police, the mayor, the politicians in the area deal with the Folsom Street Fair.

      Who is projecting hate and their morals on whom? Hmm, let’s see…kind of hypocritical for you to project this as a one sided affair.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @Brandon:

      “Federally”, the mormon church is well within it’s right to speak up on moral issues.

      The mormon church has conducted itself like adults and voted.

      As far as morals go, Brandon, one only needs to see how the city of San Francisco, the police, the mayor, the politicians in the area deal with the Folsom Street Fair.

      Who is projecting hate and their morals on whom? Hmm, let’s see…kind of hypocritical for you to project this as a one sided affair.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @Brandon:

      “Federally”, the mormon church is well within it’s right to speak up on moral issues.

      The mormon church has conducted itself like adults and voted.

      As far as morals go, Brandon, one only needs to see how the city of San Francisco, the police, the mayor, the politicians in the area deal with the Folsom Street Fair.

      Who is projecting hate and their morals on whom? Hmm, let’s see…kind of hypocritical for you to project this as a one sided affair.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @Rowen:

      Rowen, I would be delighted if you could be specific as to what the mormon church has specifically said about “about what was going to happen/what gay folks wanted/what gay folks had already done.”

      If you could find that, that would be great. Also if you could find out what the mormon church says about same gender attraction, gay marriage, prop 8, how to treat gays, how to behave during protests….that would be helpful too.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      @G: G, I project no hate whatsoever sir. am I upset with the way the mormon church became involved? Absolutely. I reiterate I do not hate you for your religous belief, that is sacred and that is yours. As are my civil rights and own personal beliefs! Church has no place in government, hate me all you want, say what you will behind my back, but voting hate into my life is something I will not stand for.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rowen
      Rowen

      The mormon church said that by allowing gay marriage, public schools would be FORCED to discuss homosexuality at a preschool level. They brought up a situation where a class went to go see their teacher get married. They implied that the class had gone at the teacher’s insistence, when it was the parents of the students who planned the event. They said that churches would be forced to preside over gay marriages, and would be punished if they didn’t.

      As for the rest of what you ask, I don’t see how it’s relevant. The Mormon church is officially against gay marriage. That, I don’t care about. I do care that they overstepped their tax exempt status, donated a large amount of money to a political cause, which helped put civil rights to a vote, which shouldn’t be the case anyway. If you want to know what the Mormon church says about how to behave during a protest, go look it up yourself. It is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • denise
      denise

      @G: Why would you protest at a black church in nyc? Blacks in NYC didn’t vote for prop 8. You’re assuming that just because a lot of blacks in California voted for it, all the blacks in the entire country would vote for it.
      I, for one, know many straight blacks in nyc who support gay marriage.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Woof
      Woof

      @G: Because the Morman church funded the phone, TV and radio campaigns from Utah. It has nothing to do with how many of them voted.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @Brandon:

      The mormon church doesnt hate gays. I dont hate gays, the church is about protecting marriage and families, prop 8 had nothing to do with taking away anyone’s civil rights. It is a moral issue, the mormon church has every right to speak out on moral issues.

      I dont hate you, I am not saying anything behind your back. Voting yes on prop 8 is not hate.

      Go look, you will not find the mormon church talking behind gays backs, spreading lies, or attacking them. You will not see firey speeches condemning gays to burn in hell.

      Homosexuality is looked upon as a sin, as adultery is a sin, and the mormon church doesn’t hate people.

      Just as Christ told the woman who was caught in adultery to sin no more…the mormons believe they are protecting the sanctity of marriage.

      As far as hate is concerned, there is none coming from the mormon side. You have not seen it, if you have, specifically address it.

      On the other hand, the signs, the protests, the chants, the vandalism, has been onesided.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @denise:

      For the same reason you would protest at a Mormon Temple in NYC. Mormons in NYC didn’t vote for prop 8. You’re assuming that just because 2% of the population in California voted for it, all the mormons in the entire country would vote for it.

      I, for one, have seen many news sources of straight mormons who support gay marriage.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @Rowen:
      “The mormon church said that by allowing gay marriage, public schools would be FORCED to discuss homosexuality at a preschool level. They brought up a situation where a class went to go see their teacher get married. They implied that the class had gone at the teacher’s insistence, when it was the parents of the students who planned the event. They said that churches would be forced to preside over gay marriages, and would be punished if they didn’t.”

      Specifically, where was that said.

      “I do care that they overstepped their tax exempt status, donated a large amount of money to a political cause, which helped put civil rights to a vote, which shouldn’t be the case anyway.”

      Specifically show the mormon church overstepped their tax exempt status. This is not a civil rights issue. Its a definition issue.

      “If you want to know what the Mormon church says about how to behave during a protest, go look it up yourself. It is irrelevant to the issue at hand.”

      It is quite relevant, there is no animosity toward gays.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rowen
      Rowen

      G,

      My religion doesn’t look down on homosexuals or homosexual marriage, so why should your religious beliefs be enshrined in our goverment?

      Further more, none of the bugaboos about gays have been proven, and most have been disproven. (homosexuality is a choice, absent fathers, gays recruit young children, we’re all drug addicts and AIDS victims, etc) So, it boils down to a religious “ick” factor. And, no matter how icky it is to you, that’s still no reason to legislate against gays.

      Finally, how is banning gay marriage protecting straight marriage? Gay marriage hasn’t been around (in our society) all that long, and you straight folks are plagued with divorce, adultery, and fly by night marriages. Gays are trying to stablize their relationships and protect their loved ones and families. Explain how this directly affects you. Give examples. General revulsion and the idea that it’s “sinful” do not count, since according to the words of Jesus, divorce is sinful, and yet divorce is a protecting institution in our society.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @G: The Mormon church broke federally law. The only recent why they will probably get away it is politics. The Mormons engaged in the same acts that the government went out Al Sharpton for a few years back.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      @G: G, if indeed it is a sin, then it is for me to live with, not you or not anyone else on this planet. Please tell me how my personal life hurts yours in any way whatsoever. It may be against your belief fine. but it doesnt belong in the constitution this country has provided us both. There are many religions in this country, but one government. I should be allowed the same rights you have no matter what my faith is or yours. as for the ‘sanctity of marriage’ that is a phrase I am tired of hearing. the day a gay person shares their love for another under law and whatever god they worship and it actually physically hurts somebody, then im sure we will all hear of it, BECAUSE IT WOULD BE THE FIRST TIME EVER and is a ridiculous notion at that. its time we remember this country was founded by peoples escaping such ridiculous religious oppression, who came seeking a fairer life. seperation of church and state, tell me how did this idea escape us?

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @G: Follow up: The only reason why the Mormon Church will probably again with the violation is politics. They clearly violated federal law regarding tax exemption status. More than that, they did so in such a way that has gays such as myself subsidizing their efforts through that tax exempt status.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rowen
      Rowen

      G,

      The accusations were said in the myriad television commercials floating around during the campaign. Qweerty has posted many of them, and has posted various people’s rebuttals.

      Non-profits are not allowed to endorse anyone. Churches have managed to get away with preaching from the pulpit, but, as a tax exempt group, they are not allowed. Donating half the money that Yes on 8 recieves definately gives the impression that the church is endorsing that political lobby.

      You haven’t explained HOW the mormon attitude towards whatever is relevant. I don’t care what your church says. I’m looking at it’s actions, you know, the whole “by their works” and all that.

      This will be my last response to you, btw. I have noticed that you haven’t been fully reading people’s responses and change topics when someone brings up damning evidence.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @G

      So you as a Mormon want to push the blame on blacks. Why does that not surprise me at all. The Mormon has a long history of vicious racism. It serves them well to shunt the blame, right?

      This is as plain as I can make it, you vote for discrimination, you are a bigot. Christian, Mormon, Pagan, White, Black, Blue. You are a bigot.

      Say it with me now. Bigot.

      Does that mean you are a bad person, no.

      Just a Bigot.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anarchos
      Anarchos

      @G: The Mormon church has no place commenting on CIVIL MARRIAGE. Nobody says you have to marry gays in your churches, and something tells me no gay would want to marry in one of your temples, but CIVIL MARRIAGE is a matter of the state and you and every other religious bigot has no right to interfere with matters of the state.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      @Tara – Praenomenal: Hi – Five Tara. Awesome.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @Brandon: Thanks :-)

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ILOVEZ
      ILOVEZ

      It was AMAZING!!! It felt so good.
      Q is not for quite anymore! Q is for Queer who fights for his or her rights!

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      The fact that your religion doesnt look down on homosexual marriage doesnt mean that no one else has a problem with gay activists and judges legislating from the bench. Why should the gay agenda be enshrined in government and why should activist judges legislate the gay agenda from the bench? Why is San Francisco forcing the country to be ok with the a lifestyle that it doesn’t agree with?

      The “bugaboos” as you refer to them have not all gone away. Yes, some are jsut plain stupid. But there is no way you can prove that being gay is not a choice. It is theory. The fact that there are many fine gay people doesn’t mean I agree with their lifestyle. It is the acitivist gays who are imposing their agenda on the rest of the country while throwing tantrums when a vote didnt go their way. Its the activist gays that make commercials bashing mormons, who spread hate in front of mormon temples with their signs and chants.

      It is not an ick factor, it is a moral issue, either homosexualty is a sin or it is not, marriage as an institution has never been for homosexuals. If the mormon church ex communicates adulterers, why should gays expect the mormon church to suddenly oppose homosexualty and gay marriage?

      In no way does prop 8 deny the same civil rights to gays and their partners, they recieve the same civil rights as everyone else.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @The Gay Numbers:

      How so?

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      @G: G, please refrain from divisive tactics. there is no difference bt your ‘fine’ gay person or ‘activist’ gay. we are one. who want only to live in a fair and just world. and as far as choosing my gayness i assure you i had nothing to do with it. i am who i am and who my god made me, who by the way seems to be a little less hateful and more reasonable than some would preach. seems to me people spread hate, not god.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @G: Ok Man, are you really that obtuse.

      Firstly.
      Being gay is not a choice, you know how I know. BECAUSE I AM GAY! Would you say that being straight is a choice? Seriously? Could you choose not to be? You do not get to tell me it is a choice, you are not gay.

      Second
      Ok. Let me get this straight with you, the courts job is to rule on the constitutionality of laws. They ruled that it is a violation of equal protection to say that X person is able to do this but Y person is not. Hmmmmm seems to make sense to me. That is not legislation, let me repeat THAT IS NOT LEGISLATION. That is a ruling, a ruling that was made by conservative judges.

      Third, because you completely avoided it, the issue of sin.
      My religion is not yours. Why should I have to agree to your sky pixie’s rules? I have an idea, lets legislate everyones religion. Let see. No one can work on Shabbas, Sabbat, Sabbath etc. Ok So then we can only legally work like 1 day a month, because remember we need to make sure everyones religion gets legislated. Ohh how about Kosher. That will be fun. Like Hamburgers? Not any more, violation of Hindi law. See how silly that gets?

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      “So you as a Mormon want to push the blame on blacks.”

      No, I’m pointing out the lack of consistency and slective rage on protesters part. Its cowardice and fits your definition of true bigotry.

      “The Mormon has a long history of vicious racism.”
      That blacks did’t recieve the priesthood until 1978 had nothing to do with racism. Blacks were not excluded from membership. I’ll bet you the “courage campain” sould make another rad commercial trashing mormons though.

      “This is as plain as I can make it, you vote for discrimination, you are a bigot.”

      The gay agenda is against organized religion, that is discrimination.

      “Christian, Mormon, Pagan, White, Black, Blue. You are a bigot.”
      Hence your cowardice for failing to target “Christians” and “blacks” and selective rage at mormons is not me trying to dump blame on blacks but is pointing out bigotry.

      “Say it with me now. Bigot.”
      Ok, those who hate mormons are bigots.

      “Does that mean you are a bad person, no.”
      Does that mean that gay activists that target mormons are bad, no…

      “Just a Bigot.”

      Just bigots.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      thanks Tara! Great example working only one day a month.

      also, “G” –

      If you are really concerned about marriage, why wasn’t prohibition of divorce on the ballot? That has been mentioned several times now, no response from YOU!

      MARRIAGE is a choice. No one was born married – so spare me the “being Gay is a choice!”

      Frankly, the government should civil union everyone and let the Churches & Synagogues, Temples, Mosques etc. MARRY peopole. There are too many Federal & State benefits tied to the “marriage” label. What, if someone won’t or can’t get married they don’t deserve health insurance? Nonsense. Well, if they “won’t” maybe….

      Also, please read some history. As in marriage has not ALWAYS been only between man and woman or if it has, the man could also have his concubines, more than one wife, have sex with slave boys and girls; get a bj maybe, but not give one……Women were property, couldn’t vote and the general condition for the majority of people (who were poor) was some condition of servitude/slavery.

      Sad to say, there’s a lot of human trafficking even today. WAKE UP. There are lots of issues and suffering people that need attention. That 75 million could have been much better used.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      thanks Tara! Great example working only one day a month.

      also, “G” – think about:

      If you are really concerned about marriage, why wasn’t prohibition of divorce on the ballot? That has been mentioned several times now, no response from YOU!

      MARRIAGE is a choice. No one was born married – so spare me the “being Gay is a choice!”

      Frankly, the government should civil union everyone and let the Churches & Synagogues, Temples, Mosques etc. MARRY peopole. There are too many Federal & State benefits tied to the “marriage” label. What, if someone won’t or can’t get married they don’t deserve health insurance? Nonsense. Well, if they “won’t” maybe….

      Also, please read some history. As in marriage has not ALWAYS been only between man and woman or if it has, the man could also have his concubines, more than one wife, have sex with slave boys and girls; get a bj maybe, but not give one……Women were property, couldn’t vote and the general condition for the majority of people (who were poor) was some condition of servitude/slavery.

      Sad to say, there’s a lot of human trafficking even today. WAKE UP. There are lots of issues and suffering people that need attention. That 75 million could have been much better used.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      sorry about the duplicate post…..

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Garrik
      Garrik

      @G
      You said: “…protest at black churches and black owned businesses. You don’t have the kind of… bravery…”
      I wonder what would happen if the Mormon Church, as an organisation, would finance a petition forbidding black people to vote or to marry…or even better: to divorce? What would happen then? I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t get a couple of peaceful protests outside your church, whith a couple of well-toned guys sprinkling the church premises with fairy dust… :-)

      PS: Nice video. I wish I could be there to support. Keep it up!!!

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Webster
      Webster

      G, even if I believed in your Invisible-Sky-Thingy-in-Charge (which I don’t), the judges were not legislating from the bench–fallacy one. The genius of the American system of government is that the courts were instituted in part to protect minorities from the TYRANNY of the majority. The Judges in CA *reinstituted* the Civil rights of gay people–and a well-funded (by the Mormons) campaign, full of lies, stepped in and took those rights away.

      Fallacy two: When did you “decide” to be straight? Being gay is not a “choice.” Period. It’s like being born left-handed or with green eyes.

      Fallacy three: “Civil Unions” are not the same as “Marriage.” Even someone as dumb as you must have heard of “Separate but Equal?” That is why the CA Supreme Court ruled that gays could marry–because Civil Unions are *not* equal, legally, to marriage.

      You can believe in any fictional Supreme Being you want and adhere to any fictional Scripture you want–but in this *secular* nation, you cannot enforce your religious beliefs into laws that affect other citizens. It’s not only wrong, it’s un-American–and unconstitutional.

      Someone needs to do some homework before they wander onto a blog and start throwing misinformation around.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 12:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      tara

      Being gay is a choice, how do I know, Im not gay. I would say that being straight is a choice as well. Hence, you are gay, and Im not.

      I dont agree with you that babies are born gay any more than I believe children are born to commit adultery and hate people because they voted yes on prop 8.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @G:

      No, I’m pointing out the lack of consistency and selective rage on protesters part. Its cowardice and fits your definition of true bigotry.

      Um, There have been a lot of people scapegoating Blacks. Seriously, Look it up.

      That blacks did’t recieve the priesthood until 1978 had nothing to do with racism. Blacks were not excluded from membership. I’ll bet you the “courage campain” sould make another rad commercial trashing mormons though.

      I call bullshit. My partner was raised Mormon. I know a lot about how the church works and believes. Black people had the were marked for sins by their skintone. Are you going to tell me there was valid reason for not receiving priesthood?

      The gay agenda is against organized religion, that is discrimination.

      No, there is an agaenda against being second class citizens, it does not matter if it is religion or Bob the guy down the street who opposes it, I oppose them. Cry me a river.

      Hence your cowardice for failing to target “Christians” and “blacks” and selective rage at mormons is not me trying to dump blame on blacks but is pointing out bigotry.

      Ok, this is inane. The Mormons are getting flack on this because they worked so hard to get it passed. As I said above I oppose anyone who wants to deny my humanity and equality. Suck it up big boy. What cannot take a little criticism, at least no one is trying to say you cannot marry. Hu. Funny that.

      Ok, those who hate mormons are bigots.
      Not exactly what I meant, but yes, Very true.

      Does that mean that gay activists that target mormons are bad, no…

      Again. Not what I said, but also true.

      Just bigots.

      Yep

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @G: “Being gay is a choice, how do I know, Im not gay. I would say that being straight is a choice as well.”

      k, well, that is surprising, what do you base that on, ever tried to be gay? Regardless, so is being a Mormon. Do not like how you are treated as a Mormon, by your logic, suck it the fuck up.

      See how that works. So by your logic I could put a petition thru that Mormons cannot marry.

      Would you not protest that? Can I quote you on that?

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • seitan-on-a-stick
      seitan-on-a-stick

      To all the newcomers, G is racist Churchill-y trying to stoke the fans of racism as usual when he’s off his homophobia meds.

      Having said that, there was a distinct lack of people of color representation and some of their organizations like People of Color in Crisis and Gay Men of African Descent at the march proportional to the demographics within the Gay Population. For the thousands who attended, thankyou so very much for taking part in our New Stonewall. I must say that I was awestruck by the attendees who included many who may be taking to the streets for the very first time. Congratulate yourself on your bravery and sinple desire to be Wed to the one you love, or have that right afforded to your friends.

      Also, for this movement to grow into a 5 million strong March on Washington (for the right to stroll down the aisle hand in hand) say, maybe in Spring of 2009, we must appeal to traditional “Non-protester” gays and straights in support of Gays like PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Gays) and Gay Servicemen and women who served a tour of duty for our country but have no Equal rights in the USA.

      Gay Marriage is a People of Color Issue, an Immigrant Issue, a Gay Family Issue, an Elderly Issue, A poverty Issue, A Youth Issue, A Medical Issue, A Tax Issue and a Civil Rights Issue.

      We, the Gay “Community” have failed to make the case that Gay Marriage is a People of Color issue as is Gay Parenting which communities stand to gain the most with Gay Civil Rights and Marriage Equality only enacted for Sexually discordant couples.

      I know some of us are basking in the victory of defeating the Repugnants but President-Elect Obama is not for Gay Marriage and we need to work with his administration for Federal Civil Union protections before the 2012 Presidential Election so Ellen and Portia and Adam and Steve won’t have their wedding rings ripped from their fingers by Hate Preachers and their lies.

      President-Elect Obama, sign civil rights legislation in your first 100 days in office or you can’t be guaranteed victory if Gays and Progressives withold donations to the Democrats and we’re stuck with President Palin; the Same-sex Impaler.

      A special thankyou to Gilbert Baker, the designer of the Rainbow Flag for his hand-sewn “God Loves Gay Marriage” banner. Any good footage of this?

      http://www.jointheprotest.com

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • farmer ted
      farmer ted

      @G:

      G, you make too much sense. These people keep parsing words to try and excuse their selective outrage. There were MANY black and Hispanic churches in places like East Oakland, Richmond, and South Central that ACTIVELY supported Prop 8. The fact remains, their “bravery” only extends to harassing polite, (mostly) white Mormons who will not retaliate in any measurable way.

      Actually, I want them to continue acting like petty little juveniles. It just shines more light on these petulant children. They try to equate a chosen behavior with immutable skin color, which is patently ridiculous. And yes, it is a choice…or at least it’s certainly not 100% “born gay”. Or are any of you who claim such nonsense ready to explain the “queer by choice” contingent of your “community”?

      Oh, and for the idiots out there who keep screaming about the Mormon Church’s tax-exempt status: THEY DID NOTHING THAT COMPROMISES THAT STATUS UNDER 501c3. NOTHING. Try actually reading the reg and understand that tax-exempt organizations CAN support or oppose ballot measures. They CAN’T endorse political candidates or parties.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @farmer ted:

      Ok, you feel it is a choice, YOU ARE STILL A BIGOT.

      See how that works. Your god is a choice. Lets ban him.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kyler
      Kyler

      AWEFUL TITLE THIS IS PROTESTING MORE THAN PROP 8

      These protests aren’t for Prop 8 anymore, they are for gays everywhere. We aren’t protesting so that 1 state can marry, Gays deserve to be recognized and we are all protesting for each others rights everywhere!

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      Its not to hard to see where the hate is eminating from.

      Hence, you bring up God and refer to Him as the sky pixie, and go on to say that you dont believe in Him.

      Marriage was insituted by God as religions believe, and since you dont believe in God, la dee dah, but you dont get to re define marriage as well.

      You are against religion and you want to do what you want to do, great, but dont get huffy and puffy at religions that you walked away from that dont want you to to re define marriage.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      “See how that works. Your god is a choice. Lets ban him.”

      Im pretty sure thats what gay activists want to do.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • farmer ted
      farmer ted

      I’m not a member of any congregation, church, or religion. Some of us don’t need a book, pastor, or priest to tell us right from wrong, normal from deviant.

      And the whole “h8″ and “bigot” thing is just so played. Don’t you realize people see right through that? People have caught on to the fact that words such as those and “homophobe” are just the infantile ad-hominem attacks gays for so long have used to bludgeon people into submission. It’s not working any more. Yes, there surely are true “bigots” out there who are opposed to gay marriage. But the overwhelming majority aren’t bigots or any other childish insult you choose to call them…they are people who, for their own personal reasons, oppose gay marriage. But go on, keep attacking them, real smart way to make friends and influence people.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @G: I can call it a SkyPixie if I want. It is my opinion. Ok, I really do not know how to explain this further, marriage predates Christianity or any religion of the Book. It is older than that. You do not own it. I am not trying to take anything from you, just to be Equal with you.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @G:
      “”See how that works. Your god is a choice. Lets ban him.”

      Im pretty sure thats what gay activists want to do.”

      Really, point to the legislation that is trying to put into the constitution that you cannot be religious? Can you name one?
      No because you are speaking in hyperbole because you have no rational argument.

      Quit making stuff up.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @farmer ted: I do not need to make friends, I do not need you to like or agree with me, what I need is for you to leave me the hell alone, to stop trying to tell me who I can or cannot marry. I do not care if you think I am a deviant. (Funny how you take umbridge at being called a bigot but call me a deviant in the same breath) I cannot put this any more plain, if anyone anywhere botes for discrimination of any kind they are a bigot. We are ALL equal or none of us are.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RichardR
      RichardR

      G, the “gay agenda” doesn’t include anything about religion, pro or con. Many of us are religious, many of us aren’t.

      I’ll just give you one old queer’s take on ‘the gay agenda.’ If I miss something, fellow queerty bloggers, please help me out. We want the same civil rights and responsibilities all other Americans have. Generally, we focus on equality in employment,military service,housing and other marketplace issues, and currently marriage and family. Oh, and we’d prefer not to be beaten up or murdered or taken out to the edge of town and stoned, just because we’re gay.

      Regarding your assertion that we don’t deserve special rights because we’ve chosen to be gay, I’d point out just as an aside that you have chosen your religion and that right is protected under our Constitution. More pointedly, there is indeed growing scientific evidence that being gay isn’t a choice, including the long known reality that homosexuality occurs in the natural world.

      And even if it were a choice — now this is a reach — it shouldn’t preclude our having the same protections afforded those who make any other lifestyle choices, such as choosing a particular religion.

      Now then, this old queer, agenda or no, is pretty down on religion and religious people. Not all of you, for to be fair, many religions and religious people don’t insist that their way, based on a narrow, literal, selective and inaccurate reading of a splendid but mythological work of literature is the only right way. If you want to believe that the first couple shared the Garden of Eden with a talking snake about 6000 years ago, well, I suppose you have the right to do that. I’m afraid I think it’s all a fairy tale, you should pardon the expression. And no one needs the Bible to know good from evil and right from wrong.

      But your belief, no matter how sincere, has nothing to do with anything but your belief. It certainly has no role — again one would refer to the Constitution — in civil matters affecting anyone else.

      Take religion out of this discussion, and there’s no discussion.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ray
      Ray

      Is it impossible to find a lovely, slender, female paratrooper? Am I reaching for the stars here?

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @RichardR: Well Said

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • seitan-on-a-stick
      seitan-on-a-stick

      Why are Queerty moderating my comments? Is dissent now moderated? What about racist bile spewed by G? What happened to a Gay Agenda??? Is anyone else being moderated? Don’t dare criticize the Queerty Gods or they will deny your FREE SPEECH! Sounds familiar….

      Nov 13, 2008 at 1:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tim Kelleher
      Tim Kelleher

      @G: We don’t want to ban your god…. we want to ban your god from having a say in our lives. Cause I, for one, think taking orders from your god is about the same thing as taking orders from the easter bunny

      Nov 13, 2008 at 2:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Japhy Grant
      Japhy Grant

      @seitan-on-a-stick: We don’t moderate comments, but readers can flag them– usually happens if there’s hate speech and/or someone doesn’t like you. Anyway, yours is up now.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      Japhy MARRY ME! that is, only if Farmer Ted, G and the mormons are cool with it…

      Nov 13, 2008 at 2:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DannyJ
      DannyJ

      As a Mormon, I would like to thank the gay-lesbian community for all the free publicity they are providing for our church. It’s amazing how many people ask questions about the church when they see the articles in the news about the hate shown toward the church and it’s members. You are doing so much to bring attention to the church and it’s beliefs. Thanks again!

      Nov 13, 2008 at 2:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tim Kelleher
      Tim Kelleher

      @DannyJ: Oh Honey… the last thing the Mormons need is more publicity.. trust

      Nov 13, 2008 at 2:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara - Praenomenal
      Tara - Praenomenal

      @DannyJ: Danny I do not hate you or your church. I do however hate Bigotry. I hope we really can bring attention to the church and it’s beliefs, especially the ones that they try and hide.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 2:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Webster
      Webster

      A formal Legal complaint has been filed today with the California Fair Political Practices Commission (FPPC) against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) aka the Mormon Church of Salt Lake City, Utah for not reporting various non monetary contributions to ProtectMarriage.com – Yes on 8, A Project of California Renewal I.D. # 1302592.

      Excerpt:

      “[The Mormon Church]
      Organized phone banks from Utah and Idaho
      Sent direct mail to voters
      Transported people to California over several weekends
      Used the LDS Press Office to send out multiple News Releases to promote their activities to nonmembers
      Walked precincts
      Ran a speakers bureau
      Distributed thousands of lawn signs and other campaign material
      Organized a “surge to election day”
      Church leaders travel to California
      Set up of very elaborate web sites
      Produced at least 9 commercials and 4 other video broadcasts all in support of Prop 8
      Conducted at least 2 satellite simulcasts over 5 Western states.

      All of these unreported contributions by the Mormon Church were on top of its massive fund-raising effort; the largest ever undertaken on a social issue ballot initiative.”

      And this is just the beginning.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 2:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      @Webster: That my friend was worth standing outside for hours last night. and many more if i have too!

      Nov 13, 2008 at 2:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jon92027
      Jon92027

      as someone who is also Mormon, at least still technically, trust me, this is not the publicity that the Mormon church wants, ever since the protests that have been trying to back pedal the amount of money and effort that the Mormons ( as in thier membership) and not the actual church itself put forth into PROP 8. There is such a thing as bad publicity, and they are getting it in spades, regardless of how warranted it may be, and the funny thing is that all thier effort in this issue does not gain them any more respect in American Christian Society. I hope that Focus on the Family and Knights of Colombus, since the Mormon Church a nice thank you letter, because I have not seen any heat put to those two and they were major bankrollers of Prop 8 as well

      Nov 13, 2008 at 5:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno
      Bruno

      @G:

      OK so we’re immoral but you don’t hate us. That makes me feel all warm & fuzzy.

      On the other hand, we hate you, so deal with that.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • froggyola
      froggyola

      Farmer Ted, what has gone so horribly wrong in your life to make you write the stupid shit you write? You are braindamaged or just plain dead inside.

      G, you are a coward, and I suspect if you were in the same room with me, you wouldn’t have the courage to say the things you say here. You can be brave from your computer keyboard, right, waste???? Get a reason to live.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 6:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • G
      G

      @froggyola:

      You can be brave at a protest against mormons, however, try another venue, say south central… I do believe you would be just as nasty in person.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 7:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael vdB
      Michael vdB

      Thank-you WOOF and ANARCHOS for your help! I support all my friends in the south of me that has carried on the fight. I just wanted to make sure that gays and lezbians in other parts of the country were not being forgotten. I have 2 adopted sons so props like that seem to get my attention too.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 8:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jhames
      Jhames

      I am taking issue with any religious organization or community of color in regards to Prop 8, we live in America and people are entitled to their beliefs.

      However, I started a group on Facebook to boycott businesses that supported propositions 8, 102, and 2. Group members are taking turns compiling lists of companies that we will distribute to friends and family.

      Again, in America people are entitled to their beliefs. Likewise, we can boycott those companies who support denying same-sex couples 1,049 federal rights.

      This boycott seems like a more practical option than, say, picking out a handful of passages in the Bible that feel relevant to a person’s life. Furthermore, this boycott does not assume the support of anyone, black or white, gay or straight. It is a measure of action based on personal belief.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jhames
      Jhames

      I meant to start my comment with “I am NOT taking issue.” Sorry about that, I’m typing whilst walking my dog.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Loren Wyatt - Nashville, TN
      Loren Wyatt - Nashville, TN

      If you believe in these words:

      “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

      If you believe, then please do something. Please speak up. Please raise your voice. Please share your energy. Please shout out loud. Please take a stance against PROPOSITION 8.

      Yes, I am a gay man. Yes, I am a gay dad. –And yes, I do believe that all people are created equal. I do believe that all American citizens should share the same legal rights, the same legal protection.

      Can anyone explain what “the sanctity of marriage” means? I am very confused when I hear these words. Does this indicate that marriage is blessed by religion? If so, is there then an understood, yet unstated correlation that religion dictates our laws? Does this mean that religion stipulates the rights of American citizens? If so, what happened to the separation of Church and State? If my understanding is incorrect, please explain why your relationship protects the sanctity of marriage, but my relationship does not?

      I am asking you to do something. I am asking you to speak up, to speak out. I am asking that you forward your thoughts, your support, to everyone you know. I am asking that you campaign for equality as strongly as you would fight for your family…because that is what this is about. This is about my family. This is about your family. This is about individuality. This is about equality. This is about the United States. This is about dignity. This is about human rights. This is about humanity.

      If you disagree, that is your right. I cannot and will not, say that I forgive you. Yet I can say, that I can and will forget you.

      –Can I get an Amen?

      ~Loren Wyatt

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Loren Wyatt - Nashville, TN
      Loren Wyatt - Nashville, TN

      If you believe in these words:

      “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”

      If you believe, then please do something. Please speak up. Please raise your voice. Please share your energy. Please shout out loud. Please take a stance against PROPOSITION 8.

      Yes, I am a gay man. Yes, I am a gay dad. –And yes, I do believe that all people are created equal. I do believe that all American citizens should share the same legal rights, the same legal protection.

      Can anyone explain what “the sanctity of marriage” means? I am very confused when I hear these words. Does this indicate that marriage is blessed by religion? If so, is there then an understood, yet unstated correlation that religion dictates our laws? Does this mean that religion stipulates the rights of American citizens? If so, what happened to the separation of Church and State? If my understanding is incorrect, please explain why your relationship protects the sanctity of marriage, but my relationship does not?

      I am asking you to do something. I am asking you to speak up, to speak out. I am asking that you forward your thoughts, your support, to everyone you know. I am asking that you campaign for equality as strongly as you would fight for your family…because that is what this is about. This is about my family. This is about your family. This is about individuality. This is about equality. This is about the United States. This is about dignity. This is about human rights. This is about humanity.

      If you disagree, that is your right. I cannot and will not, say that I forgive you. Yet I can say, that I can and will forget you.

      –Can I get an Amen?

      ~Loren Wyatt

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Maplewoody
      Maplewoody

      Shame on the elders and members of the church of LDS. They should not have devoted so much time, effort and funds for the political nature of Prop 8.

      They should lose their tax exempt status.

      I also wonder why so many super rich open and closeted gays just didn’t stand up and support the no vote
      On Prop 8. Where was the mega rich gay mafia?
      Shame on them also!

      Pissed in NJ.

      Maplewoody

      Nov 13, 2008 at 10:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Los Angeles Resident
      Los Angeles Resident

      Thank you New Yorkers!!! We Love you!!!!

      LA Resident

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chelsea
      Chelsea

      The protesters’ case is weak for several reasons:

      1. If, as protesters have argued, 8 was unconstitutional to the extent that it sought to gut rather than amend the CA constitution, they should have sought to nulify, rather than win, the vote. Would we have seen the protests we now see had the prop not passed? Doubt it. Well, it either is or is not unconstitutional; it doesn’t become one or the other depending on whether your side one. Everyone knows, and no one respects, intellectual dishonesty when they see it.

      2. Until the protesters become clear-headed in their complaint against the Mormons, the protesters will look to the rest of the world like little more than a mob of sore losers. Is the complaint that the LDS may not advocate politically? If that is the case, the protesters reveal more about their own ignorance than they shed light on any shortcoming of the Mormons. The law is clear that a church enjoys the same free speech rights as does any other citizen, with the exception that they may not explicitly support a particular candidate by name. If you don’t like that, protest at the graves of the Founding Fathers, not at the Mormon temples. Relatedly, does anyone believe that the protesters would be saying boo if the Mormons had been on our side? C’mon. Tell the truth: the protesters are not pissed off because the churches spoke up, but because the churches spoke up for the other side.

      3. Ultimately, then, what is the protesters’ complaint? That LDS organized well? Too bad. That it had money? Too bad. The same was true of the Obama campaign, and we heard no protests about that. In the end, all that can be said is that the protesters have one set of values and the Mormons and Jews and other Christian groups had another, and the protesters’ side lost. That happens. But there is not a hell of a lot to protest about in that.

      Nov 13, 2008 at 11:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • greybat
      greybat

      We should really do something nice for New York for showing their support. And something really nice for Florida.
      And TWO nice things for Arkansas and the orphans.

      Nov 14, 2008 at 2:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • boutros
      boutros

      @Chelsea:

      Wow, someone who actually sees all this for what it is.

      Nov 14, 2008 at 11:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tim Kelleher
      Tim Kelleher

      @boutros: Not alot to protest about? How about separation of church and state for one?

      Nov 14, 2008 at 11:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chelsea
      Chelsea

      #91: The four Episcopal bishops of CA actively and publicly opposed 8. In so doing, did the bishops, in your view, violate the separation of church and state? Can you please explain why or why not?

      Nov 14, 2008 at 11:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tim Kelleher
      Tim Kelleher

      @Chelsea: Maybe. The bishops are allowed by law to express their opinions based on their personally held religious beliefs to their congregations. This allows for a healthy dialogue and is clearly protected. However, should these 4 bishops have participated in fund raising, legal cases or direct campaigning, then they have crossed a line. They are trying to have personally held religious views legislated. I am not Episcopalian, so the opinions held by this specific religious group should NOT be inflicted on me anyone else who has not chosen to be a member.
      Part of what makes America great is that we don’t force others to agree with us in matters concerning spirituality (see the Taliban for what happens when this occurs)
      We are a nation of people who have a wide range of belief systems. No one denomination should be permitted to dictate civil law based on their tenets to any other group. And policy influence should be strictly curtailed to prevent this.

      Nov 14, 2008 at 12:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chelsea
      Chelsea

      @Tim Kelleher:

      Thank you.

      In my view, there are several difficulties with the view you express:

      1. When a person becomes a bishop, he does not, in so doing, relinquish his civil rights. True, he may not, acting specifically as a bishop, publicly endorse a specific candidate by name. But there is absolutely no law that prevents him from expressing views, either as a bishop or merely as a citizen, on policy issues. If you dispute this, I would be interested in seeing what you believe to be the dispositive case law. I believe you will not be able to produce any because there is none.

      2. You refer to having legislation “inflicted” on you. But Prop 8 was a public referendum. The competing sides fought out the issue in the public square. The side that won over more hearts and minds ended up winning. The people have spoken. How is something being inflicted on you?

      3. Much law is based on moral principle, and much moral principle stems from religious belief. How do you seperate out the laws that are ultimately rooted in religious principle from those that are not?

      4. Most interestingly, you are silent on the main questions I originally raised:

      A. Why only AFTER they lost did the protesters claim that 8 was unconstitutional? If they felt it was unconstitutional, why did they not seek to nulify the proposition beforehand? Why did they participate fervently in a referendum they believed was illegal?

      B. The protesters shout basically meaningless generalizations at the temples. If the head of the protesters could sit down with the head of the Mormons for an intelligent debate–let me just say that again: AN INTELLIGENT DEBATE–then what exactly would the protest leader’s complaint be?

      C. Why do the protesters not confront the Jews and Blacks?

      Nov 14, 2008 at 12:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tim Kelleher
      Tim Kelleher

      @Chelsea: 1. Not a lawyer, I defer
      2. If public (aka majority) opinion was a valid decider of civil rights issues for minority groups, the south would still own slaves. Hearts and minds, win or lose are not accurate ways of looking at this. The side that “won” has INFLICTED specific religious belief on a minority who have lost civil rights. This is not a game of monopoly, peoples safety– both civil and financial is what is at stake. Congratulations on your win?
      3. Again, not a legal scholar… but there are NO valid arguments for banning same sex marriage that do not have a religious basis, whereas with something like say murder there are plenty or non-religious arguments in favor of banning it, 10 commandments non-withstanding.
      A. They tried to challenge it in court, and the courts decided not to address the constitutionality until after the vote, and most did not anticipate the Mormon fervor
      b. The Mormons and Catholics shout meaningless scriptural generalizations in defense of this ban. And there is absolutely no way to have an “intelligent debate” with someone whose basis of argument is dogma.
      C. The “jews and the blacks” as you so lovingly describe them did not lead this charge with financial contributions. No one is claiming the Mormon people are not entitled to their belief that gay marriage is wrong. We are saying the LDS church does not have the right to use the church as a financial vehicle for influencing public policy purchasing advertising, busing protesters ect… to force their beliefs on others. And we are saying that the NARROW majority should not hold sway over civil rights for a minority.

      Now a question for you.. how, specifically, would my gay marriage impact your life AT ALL?

      And imagine for a moment how it might feel, if we got to hold a public referendum on your marriage.

      Hateful Christians blow my mind… this is NOT what Jesus would do. Jesus was a punk rock rebel, who didn’t give a fuck about the establishment… love each other and care for the less fortunate was what Jesus was about…Where did that message go…

      Nov 14, 2008 at 1:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chelsea
      Chelsea

      @Tim Kelleher:

      Thank you.

      Re: “Now a question for you.. how, specifically, would my gay marriage impact your life AT ALL?”

      It wouldn’t. I am gay. I am not necessarily NOT on your side on this issue. I just believe it ought to be argued intelligently and with intellectual honesty, and I just don’t see that happening.

      Re: “”jews and the blacks” as you so lovingly describe them.”

      I take it that that was sarcasm. In fact, I do love Jews and Blacks, and everyone else…or at least I try hard to. I don’t want to provoke a false argument here, but it may say more about you than about me that you seem to find those terms offensive.

      Well, I can’t say that you buy my positions any more than I buy yours, which sadly means that I am not sure we have gotten anywhere here, but thank you for the time and for offering your thoughts clearly and honestly, and for responding to mine in the same way.

      Nov 14, 2008 at 2:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tim Kelleher
      Tim Kelleher

      @Chelsea: re” Jews and blacks… maybe a little hypersensitive on my part.

      Clearly passions run high on this issue, and I guess my feeling is, when approached from a purely intellectual viewpoint, there are no valid arguments for banning gay marriage, its good for business, good for communities and good for creating family economic units.

      And I recoil at religious/moral arguments as I am a strict secularist.

      But, you have definitely raised the level of discourse and forced me to look beyond my blinding sense of injustice quite and to answer your questions slightly more objectively.

      I think the outpouring of rage from many in the community here is a result of holding our tongues for years of publicly sanctified gay bashing/baiting by the right/republicans (not to mention on the street and in the schools). We expect his from Arkansas… California was shock and now there is a line in the sand.

      I know it is hard from me not to answer with rage and sarcasm and I am about the calmest dude one would ever meet. I live in Boston, I am getting married this spring to the best man in the world, the thought that someone could come in and vote that out from under me is terrifying.

      Nov 14, 2008 at 2:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cody
      Cody

      I love all of you!

      Nov 14, 2008 at 4:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike Diamond
      Mike Diamond

      my take on the event

      Nov 14, 2008 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      @G:

      Dear G, thanks for your “concern” for our welfare.

      You and your side made your hatred and contempt for LGBT Americans and their civil rights quite clear.

      Now, it’s our turn to hold you to account. And we shall do so, loud and often, despite your concern that continued criticism will bring your organization’s moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy to light.

      Thanks!

      Nov 14, 2008 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Roland Basque
      Roland Basque

      I think it’s really cool to be anti-gay.I mean what does “gay” entail?Is it about a bunch of heterophobes trying to advance their own intolerant and narcissistic agenda?Everyone I know enjoys mimicking and making sport of the self absorbed nebbish twits who consider themselves candidates for veneration just because they are so called gay.Nobody really likes queers they just consider them material for great comedy.

      Nov 17, 2008 at 11:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Roland Basque
      Roland Basque

      I think it’s really cool to be anti-gay.I mean what does “gay” entail?Is it about a bunch of heterophobes trying to advance their own intolerant and narcissistic agenda?Everyone I know enjoys mimicking and making sport of the self absorbed nebbish twits who consider themselves candidates for veneration just because they are so called gay.Nobody really likes queers they just consider them material for great comedy.

      Nov 18, 2008 at 1:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • greybat
      greybat

      Just like straight people! Always good for a laugh!

      Nov 19, 2008 at 10:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

    Add your Comment

    Please log in to add your comment

    Need an account? Register It's free and easy.



  • QUEERTY DAILY

     


    POPULAR ON QUEERTY


    FROM AROUND THE WEB

    Copyright 2014 Queerty, Inc.
    Follow Queerty at Queerty.com, twitter.com/queerty and facebook.com/queerty.