For all the incest jokes Julia Louis-Dreyfus makes on The New Adventures of Old Christine, nothing will prepare you for the new Brazilian film Do Começo Ao Fim (From Beginning To End). Two brothers’ tenderness for each other at young age develops into something much deeper as they grow older. Is this a beautiful love story, or a sickening tale? From the above trailer, it looks like the director Aluizio Abranches is leaning toward the former. There’s enough “twin brother porn” out there to know intimacy between two brothers doesn’t turn everyone off. And yet, if this were a brother and sister, would your reaction be any different?
Brotherly Love
2 Brothers Fall In Love. With Each Other. Beautiful? Or Disgusting?
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Nick K
Gah! My brain says no but my body says yes! 😕
kademonster
while the actors are attractive, and the story intriguing, i just don’t think i’m quite that liberal. it it very awkward.
Alec
Incest is inest. Would you really want to have sex with your brother or sister?
I’m not in favor of criminalizing consensual adult incest but…I can’t say that I’ve ever really wanted to see two brothers going at it, either.
At least this film doesn’t seem to be going for the shock value, although I have to say having stomached LIE and The War Zone and The Dreamers, I’m not really anticipating this one.
Leisa
There was another short film that was based on brothers and incest and love too…it was english language though…can’t remember the name.
Strepsi
This is an interesting category where being gay really DOES make the difference. Because all the taboos/prohibitions against heterosexual incest are based on procreation. “What will the kids be like? What genetic deficiencies will inbreeding cause?” And there are genetic issues that inbreeding causes children. But for 2 brothers, all that is off the table. So I guess… have at him!
😉
sal(the original)
what if they “break up” would their brother relationship suffer cause of this?
Alec
@Strepsi: I don’t think a heightened probability of birth defects is the only reason we have the incest taboo. There’s also a sense, I think, that it is psychologically damaging.
Mena
I say no to the two brothers. I can’t defend it, so I won’t try. It just creeps me out. Which begs the question – is this how the religious right feels about us?
VAA
I think it is beautiful
The Gay Numbers
there’s a sub genre of porn like this.
naprem
I have no problem with it, as long as it is entirely consensual on both their parts.
*giggle* parts
sal(the original)
for example i personally wouldnt like my brother to be jealous of my bf…..i think that would make me wary of his opinion cause i would think he’s telling me so and so cause he wants me
Julian Morrison
Incest matters for genetic reasons – but genetic problems have come within range of medical repair, and two brothers don’t have the problem. I see no rational objection. The taboo is obsolete.
Scudder
If I think of MY brother in this situation, it’s a definate NO. But, I’ve always thought it’d be hot to have a twin brother to fool around with.
sal(the original)
a sibling is like ya bestfriend,why ruin that??
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
I saw the dreamers and couldn’t stomach it, although that french actor is soo frigging hot!
Is lie the one with Julianne Moore? I stayed away from that one too…
dgz
people without brothers don’t understand the yuck factor involved.
Michael W.
Where can I get some hot twin brother porn?
TANK
@dgz:
Or sisters. It’s just sooo gross.
Anthony in Nashville
I’m not writing this movie off because it may hint at incest. I have been around long enough to know a lot of people find it hot.
One guy I know has played around with a family member, I suspect it (or at least family fantasies) may be more common than anyone is going to admit.
alex
I use to have a boyfriend with a super hot half brother and a very hot bisexual father. But in all my fantasies I never mixed them.
That said I find the idea of sexual relationships between brothers interesting. I find the idea of serious intimate love between brothers to be a bit more difficult.
John Santos
When I was first coming out I met a guy who told me his first sexual experiences were with his older brother. I mean oral, anal, full on penetration and ejaculation. Everything. I was left slack-jawed–and still am. I think it’s realy very gross.
dlpca
OK, I can understand the “yuck” factor considering the sexual aspect, as well as the beauty in any relationship of such deep love. However, it seems this movie is the ultimate dare; a riveting piece of art asking us to reconsider our definition of decency, love and society. Isn’t this what great art is supposed to do?
jake
Wouldn’t it be like making love to yourself, like masturbating in a mirror? I don’t know. I’m conflicted about this one. Seems alright since there is no inequality between the partners. Pure narcissism? Self-love? Perfect reciprocation? This one’s difficult, falls into many psychological categories. This is of course, only for identical. There are no potential genetic abnormalities between identical twins engaging in sexual activity. I think for people who aren’t identical twins it’s not really understandable which is most people.
TANK
@dlpca:
No, great art is supposed to keep the truth from killing us.
7SnowyNights
I hate my brother.
This is weird for me.
The Gay Numbers
Oh as for the movie it sounds like crap. Shock for shock. It’s also been done. There was another gay movie on Here TV with the same story.
getreal
This is sick!!!!!!!!
Alexis
Some straight men have a thing for lesbian twins, so I’m not surprised with gay incest. Horrified? Yes. Disgusted? Yes. Surprised? No.
I mean, is it too much to ask for filmmakers to show how wrong this is. Look at “The Reader”. Grown woman has sex with a 15 year old boy and some had the gall to call it a love story.
Herbo
the brother angle is creepy.
I’d rather see 2 older teen male *cousins* fall in love on a deserted island, ie: a gay Blue Lagoon.
Al Benson
What a bunch of F*ing prudes! I hate my brother too, but this film portends to be powerful and moving.
Appreciating and understanding this film does not come from growing up with a brother, it’s more about understanding the meaning of love. If you have never had it, don’t bother seeing this film, you will never understand it.
Alec
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): LIE, or L.I.E., for Long Island Expressway, is about a pederast. I just mentioned it for the yuck factor (it is a fairly sympathetic portrait of a pederast, as played by Brian Cox, but still…). And the War Zone is a darker incest film and The Dreamers, well….that’s the dreamers. All indie films exploring sexual taboos.
@TANK: Exactly. I can’t really imagine anyone with a brother or sister watching this film without experiencing nausea at the thought.
Tikiboom
This is disgusting and abhorrent. Any sort of incest whether between the same gender, different gender or twins is just disgusting.
Intimacy between siblings is fine. Seeing two brothers who are incredibly close and love each other deeply is very beautiful-or two sisters, or a brother and sister, whatever. But to then take that relationship and make it sexual…how psychologically disturbed do you have to be?
Michael
Okay, I could NEVER do anything of the sort with my own brother. However, I don’t necessarily have a problem with them. Especially because they had such a strong connection from an early age when they didn’t know any better. I realllllly want to see this now 🙂
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
I have many brothers and sisters etc, so yeah ‘gross’….BUT it’s about boundaries that are set…
And I do think Freud had a point, though no one has mentioned him here…yet?
It happens and I wouldn’t be mean or judge someone but it’s about the dynamics in the family and the person..
Oh, I don’t know…I’m the arty type Alec, so doing Fine Art you find out some of your favourite artists like young girls or slept with their mother..
I’m getting into physics at the moment and Isaac Newton had the weirdest relationship with his Mum which was bodering on incest…
@Alexis:
THANK YOU!
Why the HELL was THAT movie allowed to be a classic but when a 17 year old-Beau Breedlove dates an older guys…you guys go INSANE!
I was trying to explain to my sister who didn’t believe me that that gays are some of the most judgemental and prudish people!
@The Gay Numbers:
Blah.
I’d still watch it…guys are hot and I’m intrigued. Also, doesn’t look like something Here! would do? More high budget methinks?
BrianZ
I have two brothers, not sexually interested in them and I don’t really see myself searching out some brother-on-brother porn. That said, who am I to judge? You can’t pick who you fall in love with, I know that’s for damned sure.
At least they wouldn’t have to argue over last names ;o)
onyx_g
I guess love knows no boundaries. I understand the “yuck” factor mentioned by some, I for one could not imagine myself feeling something beyond brotherly towards my own brother, but we cannot also discount that there is a possibility that this type of love does exist. If “incestuous” relationships exist, I don’t see why brothers loving each other more than as siblings can not exist. Love is powerful, it is beyond feelings and is beyond our control, we cannot choose the person we love. If this is wrong, then so be it. After all, some people say that gay love is wrong, so might as well add more “wrongs” and be happy.
The Gay Numbers
You do not have to search for brother on brother porn. If will show up in any porn that you find. But even if you did search, there is nothign wrong with curiousity abot what posses peo to do the things they do. I once went to the Folsom Street Fair to do just such observation. As a general rule, I have explored or looked at every variant of sexual interaction imaginable out of curousity. I find most of it weird or unnecessary. For instance I never will get the attraction to such things as people being sick, fluffy toy animals, people with out limbs, etc. That’s why I can say here that I am not being a prude, but it is nasty to do it with your siblings. Prude implies a lack of an open mind. I have an open mind, but I also have critical judgment too.
TANK
What is interesting is that the actual science behind our revulsion to sex with our family members (siblings parents, etc) occurs between family members who are not biologically related. But specifically, siblings who are not biologically related do have the exact same gross out factor if they were raised together, and that revulsion is increased dramatically if one of those siblings saw the other “helpless” and being assisted by a parental figure. The evolutionary explanation is partially that it helps to increase genetic diversity and thereby fitness to spawn outside of the family unit…not to mention the birth defects that can (not always) result from incestuous heterosexual matings that result in pregnancy.
The Gay Numbers
ps
I hate lines like “we can not choose who we love.” We can’t choose the gender of the people we love. We may not even choose who we fall in love with. But we can choose not to act on fucked up shit that’s clearly harmful to us. Unlike gay, there are proven psychological issues involved here.
TANK
@The Gay Numbers:
And that usually centers aruond the reasons for incest, which are not generally consensual arrangements…or if they are, it has been linked to other forms of sexual exploitation in that or those subject’s history.
John
I get it, it’s forbidden and to some people that in itself is a turn on. Like 2 girls 1 cup where they pooped and ate it and barfed on eachother, I get it. I don’t like it, I’m not interested in it, but I’m not the only one on the planet and it takes all types.
Having said that, I have met 2 fathers so far who are into having sex with their 18 or 19 year old sons, one kid got married to a woman later on but still blew his dad occasionally and the other 42 year old guy runs ads on Craigslist asking for a 4th person to join him and his 18 and 19 year old sons for some serious …whatever. I get ill just thinking about it, thats your blood. Although sometimes I wished, like another person who wrote in, that I had a twin so I could fuck around with them.
I guess I’m conflicted…I’m leaning more towards don’t do it. It just feels wrong, can’t explain it.
Jeremie
@dgz and @Alec and others: The argument that those with brothers are rightfully disgusted by incest is, as Mena rightfully pointed ou, exactly how a lot of homophobes (and the religious right) see homosexuality. Condoning homosexuality, for a lot of them, is like admitting or saying it would be OK for them to sleep with men, or to want to sleep with men, etc. Here you say that you are completely disgusted by the concept of incest because you have a brother/sister, and because mentionning incest automatically makes you think of *your* own relationship with your sibbling.
But that’s the problem: if other (consentual) siblings are engaging in an incestuous relationship, it is *their* relationship, not yours. It has *nothing* to do with the relationship you have with your own siblings.
Generally speaking—just like gays were calling out to blacks in the last election: “How can you condemn gay marriage,” some of us asked, “How can you vote for Proposition 8, and deny us the right to love and have our love and commitment (not to mention security) acknowledged by society, when *you yourself was discriminated against in this very same way with biracial weddings?” how can any of you condemn consentual incestuous relationships?
How is it that you can simultaneously suffer the self-righteouness of the every day American who grasps onto tradition, religion as the last curtain behind which to self-deny the irrationality and cruelty of their rejection of homosexuality (“marriage is between a man and a woman”, “the good book says …”, etc.), and then go and hide your failure to think for yourself behind an age-old taboo, who’s relevance today (especially in the context homosexual relationships) is about the same as the imperative not to eat seafood in the Bible, or pork in the Coran …
We can’t ask people to set aside their irrational fear of homosexuality, and yet remain unwilling to do so ourselves.
Is any of this hitting home?
@jake: Finally, I’m not saying your thoughtful comment on sex between identical twins does not have some basis; I wish just to caution, in the more general case of incestuous relationships (not between identical twins), that “narcissism” has been a would-be scientific, but vicious way of dismissing gay love …
@sal(the original): Family ties are strong, but have been broken for much, much less than an incestuous relationship gone south. If this were used as an argument against incest, it would hold up about as much as “gay couples not committed” or “sanctity of heterosexual marriage” in the wake of all those (straight) divorces.
@Nick K (and others): whether it is hot or not is irrelevant. What do you say to straight males who would tolerate lesbians (do I’m not saying they do) because “it’s hot”?
I would like to close this (long-winded, sorry) comment by this: I have never arboured incestuous feelings; the idea of any sort of incestuous relationship with me younger brother makes is, to put it mildly, not appealing in the least—but so is the idea of having sex with so many other people (several billion, all told, I imagine); I just wish we could learn from the humiliation we’ve through and try to prevent putting other people through it (though admittedly, I’m not sure incestuous are that common).
Winter
@Leisa: HARRY & MAX
strumpetwindsock
I heard a piece on the radio this morning about blood relatives who have met each other and fallen in love without realizing they were related. Genetic Sexual Attraction, it’s called.
Here’s the show, with links:
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2009/200905/20090507.html
TANK
That’s just not smart…to link the condemnation of incest to the condemnation of homosexuality to somehow defend it…that’s just wrong all around…but you fight the good fight.
mmmhmmm
Incest grosses me out. HOWEVER, I also recognize that gay sex grosses a lot of people out, and 40 or 50 years ago, gay sex used to gross almost EVERYONE out. Thus, being grossed out by something is NOT a good enough reason to be opposed to it.
I think that the platonic way in which most of us grow up with our siblings (knowing them as kids before we even have a sexual consciousness) means that most people will not be attracted to their siblings. However, if two siblings fall in love, who am I to tell them that what they are doing is wrong?
50 years ago, everyone was opposed to homosexuality because no one knew any homosexuals. Today, people are much more likely to support gay rights if they know gay people than if they do not (or think they do not). While I still believe incest is “icky” I have to admit that if I knew successful, happy incestuous couples (such as the couple portrayed in this movie), it would force me to reconsider.
TANK
Except, as I previously said, incestuous relationships often involve sexual exploitation and abuse. These factors are harmful, and therefore unethical.
tavdy79
There’s a straight German brother and sister who are lovers; the brother has been imprisoned a couple of times, and they’ve had kids – some with genetic deformities. However their situation is unusual: they didn’t meet – or even know each other existed – until they were adults. They never grew up together so never had that kind of relationship, and they fell in love very quickly when they first met.
The Gay Numbers
Tank
It’s just representative of the pop culture lazy thinking that we discussed regarding how people use relativism. The people making these statements are not thinking about the i ssue any deeper than a superficial way. Well these are two categories, both are condemned, thus neither should be. They do not go into what the two categories are ,w hat harm is invovled or any pertinant information. It’s a knee jerk reaction. I wold not mke anymore of of it than that.
The Gay Numbers
Tank
Follow up: I find that people (gay straight or otherwise) like coming up with simple black/white absolute rules about how to navigate the world. for example, if one is a relativist, then one is going to be a relativist about everything and not try to add anything as complex as understanding harm.
Alec
@Jeremie: Incest is not the product of a sexual orientation. Really not comparable. Most incest cases don’t involve consenting adults (and if you read through the thread, I don’t think there should be criminal sanctions in those cases). Even many (if not most) incest cases among siblings involve some form of abuse, and usually an age disparity. There’s also a different, almost inherently coercive or twisted dynamic to incestuous relationships because of the prior familial relationship and setting, putting it closer to pedophilia (and othr paraphilia).
There are good legal and moral arguments to permit consensual adult incestuous relationships, but i.e., not to prohibit them through criminal sanctions, but that doesn’t translate to promoting or approving of them.
And frankly, unlike homophobia and even aversion to intergenerational sexual relationships, the incest taboo runs very, very deep.
alan brickman
it’s just part of life but not all of it…
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@tavdy79:
Yep, happens all the time in Europe.
@strumpetwindsock:
But think about it and boy, I’m being general because this is a HUGE area BUT are people not interested to others with features, skin colour etc that is similar to our own??
Do men not try and find that ‘mother’ figure and vice versa with women?
Joey
It’s a movie, it’s fiction, so it’s alright. But in real life, this would be to much. Also, obviously, when attractive individuals are involved in such sordid themes, people tend to let them off easy. This is really an attitude that should not be encouraged any longer.
The Gay Numbers
Agree with Joey. Gay community has a tendency to let bad behavior off because its done by someone attractive. Wrong is wrong regardless of who does it.
strumpetwindsock
@tavdy79:
The radio show is about that exactly – an attraction because the people are so closely related.
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): And there are colonies (hutterite and other old order societies) where everyone IS related. I have heard plenty of stories about them renting studs just to widen the gene pool.
And a personal story – I found out a few years ago that a couple of good friends I knew in university (25 years ago) were actually second cousins of mine; we had no idea we were blood relatives. One of the first things my friend said (in jest) was “Boy…. good thing we didn’t have sex”.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@strumpetwindsock:
Exactly.
I come from a dubious background etc but how is that my fault??
@Joey:
But how do YOU stop it being recognised? Was Freud full of shit? What are your action plans?
I the media more in control and others will follow?
So what are your societal polices towards this NEVER being ‘encouraged’ again?
stevenelliot
On paper (or film), its hot. In real life? kinda creepy.
Cait
The problem with things like this is that gay people spend so much time fighting against the Christian right when they say, “How is homosexuality different from incest, polygamy or paedophilia?”
This kind of thing just encourages them.
Miss Understood
As with gayness, if you don’t like it, don’t do it. I just don’t get all of these strong opinions about what other people do. It’s just nobody’s business.
alejandro
this is jus sad 🙁 like, they could never realy be together.. wether or not its right. its still sad.
louann
no
Ethan
Is this based on Augustin’s book The Carnivorous Lamb? it reminds me a lot of it.
james p. p.
no. no. no.
didn’t like it in flowers in the attic, don’t like it now. i see no difference between men and women, brothers and sisters, twins or not. it’s just… ew.
my brother lives in Houston and every time he starts talking about some girl he fucked i start cringing. gross.
just gross.
there are how many billions people are there in the world?? who says that you JUST HAVE TO fall in love with the person who popped out of the same twat as you?? please. get over it already.
move on.
(just… gross…)
Hannah
Do they actually have sex or kiss in the movie? The brother on brother cuddling in the trailer doesn’t bother me.
I wouldn’t do it, but as long as it’s consentual and not abusive, then I don’t care. Other people’s relationships have nothing to do with me. I’m not entitled to an opinion on things that have nothing to do with me.
Good lord
You gotta give it to those Brazilians. They do the mouthiest dirty sexy porn ever, and have every iteration of the word sexy not only living in the bright sunshine between their shores, but with a preference for speedo’s no less. I would have titled this article: “Are Brazilians the new French?”
Adrian
So many of the anti-incest posters here have arguments that amount to, “Basically, it’s gross! Yuck!” or at best, “Vaguely psychologically harmful!” These seem like pretty wishy-washy bases for some pretty vehement opinions.
@Cait: “encourag[ing] them” shouldn’t stop us from thinking critically and making rational arguments, i think.
Scudder
Funny. The christian right often speaks of gay marriage as some kind of gateway perversion that’ll lead to incest.
Look at the story of Sodom and Gommorah. Lot and his family flee the sinful ways of the city before the inhabitants are destroyed. His wife looks back and is turned to a pillar of salt. What is not so frequently mentioned…Lots daughters get him drunk and seduce him.
Funny how that rarely gets mentioned.
Gurlene
I’ll pass.
pc
If this were heterosexual incest it’d be more disturbing but probably quite funny too. I had a friend in college who was always touching and holding his sister a bit much and it made us all uncomfortable…. but it was also hilarious to watch them feel each other up all of the time. he also used to kiss his mom lingeringly on the lips. incest makes me laugh.
sal(the original)
@Jeremie: “Family ties are strong, but have been broken for much, much less” sooooo does that make it ok to CONSCIOUSLY do something that may ruin/complicate the relationship??i know that sibling relationships can be broken “for much less” and this is one of them that can do this,so it doesnt seem worth it
dgz
@Jeremie:
comparing incest to gayness… your position is the wet dream of every homophobe who argues the slippery-slope.
and all i said was that it grossed me out, something which you basically *also* said at the end of your post.
reread Tank’s posts. they make sense.
vernonvanderbilt
Obviously, this film has already begun to fulfill its probable intent, as people seem very anxious to jump into conversation on the subject it revolves around. Personally, I think it’s much ado about nothing. After all, we’re talking about a fictional film here. It’s not about what we would or would not do in our real lives. It’s about what the characters in the film do and how we react to it.
I’d never want to get intimate with any of my siblings, but that’s certainly not going to stop me from watching this film. Lack of availability will be more likely to stop me from seeing it. Nevertheless, if I come across it somewhere at some point, I won’t have any second thoughts about checking it out. It looks interesting to me.
Richard in DC
PLEASE TAKE THIS ARTICLE OFF, YOU ARE GIVING NOM FODDER TO SHOOT AT!!!!!!!
Good lord
So many intelligent comments to this post. And so many stupid ones. I alwaus wondered what a Queerty fan meet up would look like. But I worry all the wrong people would show.
Mark M
Would I want this for me? ? No. But it’s a great idea for a film, and an interesting one. There are many literary cautionary tales about incest. With gays, with no kids involved…. hmm.. it would be interesting to explore the emotional & spiritual risks without the risk of having kids with 3 hips and 4 thumbs. One bummer, for me: the trailer said too much. I already know the story, and don’t need to see the film.
Jay
I think this film just proved Freud was right all along.:P
I think pretty much any gay that has a brother will probably find this film disturbingly gross…yet erotic.
marcus
i’m not sure why everyone is being so protestant about this. at the least it looks beautifully shot. we are not talking hollywood or hollywood values here, and i think we should be alright with that, rather than moralizing or letting the yuck-factor take hold, which frankly i was more appalled by than the content of the film.
not that i think the film is shocking at all. it looks like an extremely tender treatment of a familiar theme, love that no one else can understand. the subject of the film is not “brother sex” and whether that’s hot or just a turnoff. the theme is – love at the edge of social limits, or love that people have trouble understanding. love without limits, love forever. clearly the comments stand as evidence of just how difficult it is for us to wrap our heads around it. but make no mistake, the subject of the film is not brother fucking, and to not be able to get past that is dumb.
and i think it’s very disingenuous for anyone here to say that this “encourages the religious right” so we shouldn’t be watching it. you grew up gay, you should know that once you start thinking like that your arms are tied. to say that our political problem is namely that we are not upstanding enough is completely wrongheaded.
Scott Laforce
Love of any kind is beautiful.
Disgusted American
well Im not judging anyone….humans can’t even really pretend to undetrstand any kind of sexuality….tho Id understand gay incest a tad more, and someone else mentioned the hwol baby thing…is a bit too much…..but lets face it,we’re programmed as children to think its wrong…..Oh i dont know…..tho I did have a crush on my older brother when he was like 21 and I was 17….nothing ever happened tho…I was attracted to him sexually…but it faded.
Rando
Wow.
I can’t say this is right, because as mentioned before there seems to be many problems with it and the psychological damage that is caused could be unmeasureable, but by the looks of it it looks like a great movied.
It’s hard to explain, but it does touch on grounds that we would never, or at least in the near future never accept as a society.
It gives people something to contemplate, to question the morals and norms of society.
I doubt the filmmaker was intending to make a movie for incest activism, but more for psychological aspect. How would we preceive something like this had we witnessed it first hand? How would we respond to the movie. And would we see it for a deep love or merely something despicable?
TANK
Yeah, I just hope they also include roman showers, because there’s nothing sexier than roman showers. BRING ON THE ROMAN SHOWERS!
James
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this. Although i can see why it might not be a wise thing to do… you can’t avoid a brother if it doesn’t work out.
me
anyone who watches supernatural knows that it is a beautiful thing to behold 🙂
Jen
So beautiful. I love best what Marcus said — “the subject of the film is not “brother sex” and whether that’s hot or just a turnoff. the theme is – love at the edge of social limits, or love that people have trouble understanding. love without limits, love forever. clearly the comments stand as evidence of just how difficult it is for us to wrap our heads around it.”
Incest is _gross_, true love could never exist between siblings, there’s a highly damaging psychological factor going unaddressed– give me something with _substance_, give me something with _teeth_, but these arguments (all but the last) are lacking in everything but personal preference. Hell, it’s surprising to see so many people with a vested interest in “to each their own” become so ferocious about love.
As for the highly damaging psychological factor, there have been studies on both sides of this issue. Consensual relationships between siblings in instances where trauma or abuse hasn’t been the key known factor bringing them together have proven functional, healthy, loving. The only damaging association being societal condemnation. Familiar?
Any relationship that involves abuse of any kind (emotional, physical, spiritual, psychological) is going to cause permanent and lasting damage, but why minds immediately jump to that when these two (in the film) are so obviously connected by something far deeper and entirely beneficial is beyond me. In truth, it smacks of intolerance and people’s own personal fears. Not really surprising, but still rings with the question, “Why?”
The answer isn’t because the portrayal in this relationship is steeped in cruelty, violence, neglect, manipulation, greed, pure entitlement. The segment we get of the film, it depicts two boys who have grown up together, cemented by a connection, who decide to take it further, dealing with what their family might think, what the people around them might think, what it might be to lose one another in order to realize their dreams or potential. It doesn’t appear that they’re holding each other back, but neither one of them seems quick to let go. Sounds like love to me.
So, again, _why_? What about this, love between two consenting adults (albeit brothers), doing far less damage to one another in a world filled with meaningless hookups and loveless marriages brings about such vehemence?
Nothing has ever been easier than becoming complacent in our world view. When the oppressed become established, when the ostracized become mainstream, it’s so easy to give in to prejudice. That scares me far more than two brothers falling in love.
afrolito
This film looks to be so beautiful. I can’t wait to see it.
I love art that pushes buttons, and judging by the moronic, close-minded drivel posted here, people are as stupid as ever.
vernonvanderbilt
@afrolito: Big ol’ co-sign.
TANK
@afrolito:
roman showers!
Pragmatist
I don’t have any problem with this — but I’d hope that anyone doing it would be in great emotional health. Otherwise, I suspect that nesting these two primal spheres of social interaction could be risky. Just a suspicion.
Otherwise, what’s the harm? I agree with the poster who stated that people in this thread who say “Ick! That’s wrong!” are exactly like conservatives who think gay sex is “ick” and wrong. And that observation has nothing to do with “pop relativism.” It does, however, have everything to do with requiring that people have valid reasons for passing a moral judgment, or admit that they’re being inconsistent in their beliefs (which is fine — we all are from time to time — just be honest about it).
osocubano
My partner used to screw his brother (who is straight), when they were kids. It happens more often than we care to admit.
hardmannyc
It looks cute, but it would be more fun if the step-dad joined in the fun.
hardmannyc
btw,my deceased lover slept with his gay brother once. but I think they just did it for the pervy thrill.
jason
Incest is incest. Being gay doesn’t give you the right to practise incest. Gay means “gay”, not “anything goes”.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@jason:
Someone’s on a role this early morning Jason! Seeing a few of your postings scattered around the place…go Grrr!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@James:
Lol, no….you can’t! 😉
osocubano
@jason:
Who needs to be given the right? We do have free will, and what you think about it is your problem.
Andrew
I’m curious. Having only seen a trailer, it’s tough to judge. But… it appears that the film maker is approaching a difficult subject from the angle of love, as opposed to some prurient aspect. Personally, the notion of incest is gross. But I also admit that I am ignorant of the very real-world experience of some people — an experience that no doubt could include love. So… I might see this film with hopes of having a better understanding and being less judgmental in the future. Doesn’t mean I’ll come to think better of incest, but perhaps be a bit more compassionate to those who have experienced such love.
undercoverpants
Oh, brother. Where art thou?
edgyguy1426
@afrolito: I think you’re exactly right, judging by the number of posts here! And after the majority of viewers’ boners subsided and logged in to say: “Creepy,Gross!Yuck!” I had to laugh. It’s a piece of art for crissakes..this is not a bio-film!
And don’t you love people that say “…this doesn’t give you the right…” I wasn’t aware you were the one handing out the rights…
Doug
It is a film that needs to be shown because it does happen and it is real and any type of love between brothers or sisters can be extreemly strong. We all thought just being gay was some horrible disease back in time and we evolved from that. We will with this too. I hope more films are made like this. Bravo to the writers and producers for making this film!
edgyguy1426
and the title of the film means the Beginning of the End, so I don’t think there’s going to be a happy ever after ending here anyway
edgyguy1426
Sorry I stand corrected on the translation of the title. My Bahian boyfriend would kill me if he found out. He’s not my brother by the way. 🙂
Lex
Eww.
Why don’t they just go ahead and make a film about fucking animals too?
It’s what people are already saying about us. Since we’re helping support negative and untrue claims.
Alec
@Doug: Yes, of course it happens. Many things happen. Really, the question should be asked, is it healthy for those involved? And while modern psychologists seem to say “No,” I am skeptical enough to question whether it holds true in all cases. Nevertheless, I don’t think the comparison to homosexuality is appropriate. Maybe when it comes to criminal laws prohibiting same-sex sexual relations, but in general the issues involved seem to be radically different.
@edgyguy1426: I’ll bet you that it ends in tragedy, as almost all of these films do. This is hardly the first taboo explored in a “serious” or sympathetic way. And what most of them have in common is a tragic ending.
strumpetwindsock
@Alec:
“ends in tragedy”
Of course…. the presumption being that there has to be some sort of punishment for breaking the laws of nature. If they just had a fling, ended it and then went on with their lives it would seem unresolved, even though it is a completely superstitious notion.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
KAPO! and…ROMAN SHOWERS! INCEST WITH ROMAN SHOWERS…HAWT!
Scrufff
If anyone is interested, I remember as a young teen reading “The Carnivorous Lamb” a somewhat dreamy story about an incestuous relationship between two brothers set during Franco’s reign in Spain.
http://www.squashduck.com/ltd/reviews/carnivorous.htm
However in reality, I can’t imagine sleep with my older brother.
Alec
@strumpetwindsock: Maybe. I don’t know that the author or director had that in mind originally. Might just be dramatic effect as opposed to judgment.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Perhaps vernon was right and you are just looking for attention, But I will defintely need to use the ball gag on you, boy.
You’re real good at dishing it out, but from what I’ve seen you squeal like hell when you get your words turned back at you:
http://www.queerty.com/but-what-do-famous-lesbians-cynthia-nixon-rosie-think-about-carrie-prejean-20090429/#comment-156058
Get some popcorn. Read the whole thread.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
You’re a cranky old man who defends sexism, homophobia, and toxic religious extremism because you’re a kapo.
strumpetwindsock
@Alec:
That’s what I mean.
Fiction is fiction – nor reality – and it seem to always need that “judgement”. If it weren’t there it would feel like the author was illustrating a existentialist wasteland where there is no moral order.
TANK
Now where are the movies that portray same sex necrophilia and pedophilia in a healthy, productive way? I’m sick of movies that just show the negative aspects of same sex pedophilia…it’s so tiring and predictable! WHy can’t a statistical irrelevancy be used to defend that practice? Goddamnit! It’s discrimination, and if you’re not FOR a charming beautiful movie about a same sex necrophiliac relationship, then you obviously hate gays.
TANK
where’s the gay version of hard candy, even? Everybody hates us, even us, and those complaining about this beautiful healthy same sex relationship portrayed are just responding to things like comprehensive psychological studies and reality… Can’t the rest of you just see the trees through the forest?
strumpetwindsock
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116783/
It’s straight, but it’s a serious film about necrophilia.
TANK
Too moody for me.
Pragmatist
@strumpetwindsock: Don’t you hate that? I think it’s just lazy, unimaginitive fiction writing. Like the screenwriter couldn’t be bothered to construct an engaging, real-world story, so he or she just used melodrama instead.
I have a hard time with stories that are so impractical. Like in 99% of movies about a romantic couple, a large bit of the storyline wouldn’t have occurred if the characters had just said what was on their mind the way normal people do. But, no, they had to move to different cities and pine away for each other because of silence and idiotic assumptions.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
Pedophilia?
Lolita dude!
TANK
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
No, no, same sex pedophilia. LIE wasn’t very “positive”. It’s just where are the healthy cases of pederasty on film…I feel like this is a really underrepresented MAJORITY of all cases of man on boy sex…LOL!
TANK
@TANK:
LIE wasn’t as positive, for example, as philadelphia.
The Gay Numbers
There have been several gay versions of hardcandy.
TANK
MAJORITY because…well, how could it not be? ANd if you’re against necrophilia, you’re against gays! That’s the new slogan we should be marching the streets uttering. UP WITH INCEST! UP WITH NECROPHILIA! NECROPHILIA IS A GAY RIGHT!
oy…some people just don’t…comprehend.
TANK
@The Gay Numbers:
name one.
strumpetwindsock
@Pragmatist:
It is annoying, but it is odd too, how we are trained to expect karmic justice, and if someone in a work of fiction does something evil or or simply forbidden (whether it is malicious or not) there is just the assumption that the person will pay for it.
And if that punishment never comes we leave the theatre or close the book waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Jeremie
@TANK: Thank you for your reply …
@Alec: Yes, you’re absolutely right, that sexual orientation (which you have to live with) is not at all the same thing as one particular attraction (which you can chose to disregard). I am not comparing the homosexuality to incest, but (as TANK noted) the condemnations used to attack both (and it’s absurdity and baseless-ness).
@Alec and TANK: You’re using children and abuse to discredit incestuous relationships, and I am sorry to say that is exactly the technique used against us (because, yes TANK, I do not like giving anybody fodder against us). How many times have people tried to fearmonger against homosexuality by linking gays to child abuse? Do you remember Anita Bryant, the orange juice lady? Anita Bryant’s anti-gay organization was called “Save Our Children“… (And no, gays were not the only ones to suffer the “they are going to abuse our children” rhetoric.)
Regarding the “deepness” of the incest taboo compared to others, well, in the timeless words of Jerry Seinfeld, “I’m not sure how official any of those ratings really are.” 🙂
@dgz: I did not say incest grossed me out: I said that insofar as I am concerned, I do not have any feelings for my own brother. But I am not attracted to women, nor do I feel like I am a woman myself, and that doesn’t mean I think heterosexuality or transsexuality are wrong. The point I was trying to make, and which you are replying to is: my feelings for my brother are separate from the feelings anybody else might have for their own sibbling.
Relationships where one of the parties is being coerced are bad. But any type of relationship can be non-consentual.
If you aren’t convinced by the “everybody should be allowed to love whomever they want” argument, how about this: suppose for argument’s sake that the “damage” caused to the partakers of a (mutually consenting) incestuous relationship is actually “proven”. Should both parties not be allowed to benefit from free will? Like the person eating lots of greasy food even though it is making him/her obese? Or the person eating a lot of red meat even though knowing it is bad for them? Or the person smoking, even though it leads to cancer? (Not comparing incest to anything bad; just argumenting that even when the negative outcome is assured, people are still allowed to chose for themselves …)
@me: Ha ha ha 🙂
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
Hmm…okay…
We have a few Brit film/movie stuff to be fair…but it really isn’t that much of a big deal…people start having sex at 14 in the UK…God, I remember being sooo mature that at 16 I ONLY wanted a relationship with older guys…like 20’s-early 30’s…but STILL felt more mature..
:/
TANK
Except…in this case, it’s true…whereas in anita bryant’s case it’s false… Pin drop.
TANK
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
whore
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Jeremie:
No…boundaries…
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
Ha! As if! 🙂
Come on….you’re mature by the age of 15…?!!
Where you not???!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
‘Were you not??’
Fumo
@dlpca:
I couldnt have said it any better DLPCA. I totally agree. There’s so much beauty in such deep love. Ya the subject matter is taboo but its just a movie yall. My friend totally freaked out when I said i wanted to watch this. Its like when she freaked out when i said “Lolita” was a good movie. Obviously pedophilia is disgusting and the man was a pervert. But the movie was cinematically beautiful, amazing actors, edited well and was invoked emotion. Thats what art does, it makes you feel something. Looking forward to this movie.
ps. this one looks as aesthetically pleasing as “La mujer de mi hermano”.
+Fumo
geoff
@getreal: Haven’t seen you post for a while and while we don’t agree on everything, let me echo your sentiment, Ewwwwwwwwwww. An incest movie? Really? what kind of nasty shit is that? I saw a post earlier about how it takes all kinds, and how 2 girls 1 cup is an example of that,well let me tell you, 2 girls 1 cup is NASTY! It is not for normal people to get off on, it’s a damn party prank (check you tube if you don’t believe me). Ok, back on topic, this whole incest crap is just going to bring the assbags on the religous right out saying “see we told you so” why give them that? Sorry, getreal, I know this is long winded and my criticisms aren’t even directed at your post sinceI agree with you 100%, but WTF?
geoff
@getreal: Again, sorry, you are actually one of my favorite voices of reason on this site, but this post just about sent me over the edge.
Hermitage
As long as it is consensual, I have no problem with it at all. Live and let live.
Phoenix (Ahoy! Butt-Pirates Of the Carribean!)
Funny, I thought homosexual meant you were attracted to another (non-relative, adult) of the same gender…I didn’t know it included incest and pedophilia (or beastiality, corpse-fucking, sadism, etc). I guess the fundies were right about us queers….we are sick fucks without morals or ethics who promote perversion.
p.s. Gay [gey] adjective 1. gleeful, jovial, glad, joyous, happy, cheerful, sprightly, blithe, airy, light-hearted; vivacious, frolicsome, sportive, hilarious. Gay, jolly, joyful, merry describe a happy or light-hearted mood. Gay suggests a lightness of heart or liveliness of mood that is openly manifested: when hearts were young and gay. Jolly indicates a good-humored, natural, expansive gaiety of mood or disposition: a jolly crowd at a party. Joyful suggests gladness, happiness, rejoicing: joyful over the good news. Merry is often interchangeable with gay: a merry disposition; a merry party; it suggests, even more than the latter, convivial animated enjoyment. 2. brilliant.
khoryB
My brother and I have a very close relationship. I am two years older. As kids we were each other’s best friends and constantly in physical contact. I can recognize in my memories now that our closeness, nothing that was ever sexualized, made outsiders uncomfortable – something that must have embarrassed our mother but she never discouraged. We held hands constantly, shared beds, and kissed as children. Once I reached puberty, I began to recognize the discomfort we caused and responded by forcing distance between us, my little brother didn’t understand what he’d done wrong, what he could have done to make me made at him. I still feel guilty for this period. The distance grew as we aged, we remained close as siblings and there was nevera time when I wasn’t watching out for the boy, but we were no longer each other’s gratest confidant. Eventually, I left for college and my brother continued to grow up on his own.
I don’t know that anything sexual would have developed between without the discouragement I felt, but with or without that aspect, I feel that we lost something of value.
Larry
One thing I remember from Anthropology 101 is that the incest taboo is universal among cultures, but the definition of incest isn’t. Some permit marriages between first cousins, for example.
I actually used to know a guy who’d been having sex with his brother since they were teenagers. They were both really close and affectionate with each other — more so than any boyfriend-boyfriend couple I’d ever seen — and enjoyed the relationship, and I didn’t see anything unhealthy or controlling about the way they interacted with each other or the world at large. Likewise, there wasn’t anything dysfunctional about their family life (their parents didn’t know, of course). I won’t lie: I thought it was pretty weird at first, but I got used to it.
I would still see sex between a brother and sister as fucked up (because of the risk of inbreeding) or between a father and son (because of the age and power difference), but if two brothers or male cousins want to go at it and really enjoy what they’re doing, then I don’t see a problem. I would even say it shouldn’t really be considered “incest,” because that term usually implies inbreeding and/or lack of consent.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@khoryB:
Interesting.
I guess you knew you had feelings for each other….that wasn’t sexual but love, which isn’t the way many incest brother/brother relationships star..
khoryB
I suppose I kind of left out my point. Which is that society’s knee-jerk revulsion to any relationship that can be considered incestual enforces barriers on all relatioships between relatives.
The definition of an acceptable relatioship is finaly changing, if slowly, and I believe that has an impact on the acceptable level of devotion in platonic relatioships as well. If society’s concept of a healthy relatioship changes to include some level of incest, it may expand the tolerance leveled at other interactions.
TANK
Or, it may just result in more birth defects and populations more susceptible to disease…and further, more people with psychopathologies are a result because, after all, most incestuous relationships are based upon rape and power imbalances that merit the term “abusive”.
Then again, I’m sure there exists a minority of incestuous relationships that do not involve sexual abuse and don’t have even the potential of causing harm…and to them…disgusting. But, hey…whatever floats your boat.
khoryB
That statement claims that incest should be sononmous with inbreeding, rape, and abuse. With obvious exception to the first situation, those crimes can be found taking place in standard relatioships. This shouldn’t be referenced as support for highly selective breeding practices or a standard practice that every child should be ‘broken in’ by a family member. Such all or nothing arguments have a long visible history of flawed logic.
Certainly concern should be given to those victimized in incestual relationships. It needs to be recognized that the absolute dismissal so common to most individuals’ way of thinking enforces a blanket shamed silence to everyone involved. Because society is so reluctant to acknowledge the practice victims are afraid to speak, witnesses refuse to believe what they are seeing, and abusers can count on a buffer of denial to keep the situation from being confronted.
Willingness to confront reality from multiple approaches is important increasing our abilities to deal with it.
This isn’t just a matter of boat floating. No one benefits from living in the dark.
Larry
In my opinion, as long as it’s based on mutual desire and consent and there’s not too large of an age difference, then it’s all right and even healthy if a relationship between two brothers becomes sexual.
I think semantics has something to do with it. As I mentioned earlier, different cultures have different definitions of “incest.” So why do we consider a relationship between two brothers to be incestuous? There’s no chance of pregnancy, and there isn’t the kind of power disparity as there would be between a father and son. At least in American culture, we’re inclined to think of any relationship between relatives as incestuous, even as notably prudish cultures in the Middle East permit marriages between first cousins.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this sort of thing is more common than people say. I mean, how many guys would actually admit to a sexual relationship with a brother? But I’ve read some of the stories posted on “confession”-type Web sites by guys who describe sexual experiences with brothers; even if a substantial percentage of the stories are fictional, a lot of them seemed pretty real to me.
TANK
@khoryB:
Not at the same rates. Nearly all incestuous relationships involve elements of abuse.
TANK
Some people benefit from living in the dark. Vampires and albinos; those without melanin…
Lots of unsavory types do as well.
Nathan
there is something more then incest between this brothers. The love they have for each other is beautiful….. To give a better analysis I’ve gotta watch the whole movie…..
Kally
@Leisa: Starcrossed?
jason
Incest is unacceptable whether it’s same-sex or opposite-sex.
BERRY
@me: wincest = ♥
BERRY
@Jen: I definitely second your opinion
Jake Davis
I think two brothers is hot; I knew a hot pair of brothers who had a rip body and both with dicks over 10 inches and they made deep and hard love.
Jake Davis
I think two brothers is hot; I knew a hot pair of brothers who had a rip bodies and both with dicks over 10 inches and they made deep and hard love. Even hotter would be a father son!
Sam
I personally think it’s beautiful, this specific story. I have two brothers and I’m not close with them in the least, so for me, it would not even be a plausible situation. I am also morally against it, in terms of me and my own family; it would just be too hard. I can’t judge who someone else falls in love with. It could be their sibling or their friend or someone they meet on the street one day. I think that love honestly knows no bounds and people need to be less judgmental. You cannot help who you fall in love with. If the connection is there and you truly deeply care for the other person and want to spend time with them and they you, life’s too short to just say no because you happen to be borne from the same family. We are all interconnected and come from the same ancestors, so incest really occurs in every relationship. Between brother and sister is a little more iffy/risky because of the possible procreative defects in their offspring, but same-sex is exclusive to that circumstance (luckily lol).
v
For me it’s ok. Love is love, you don’t choose who you fall in love with. And this film and story it’s just beautifully told and acted, and shows just that.
Btw, “No. 138 · Larry
One thing I remember from Anthropology 101 is that the incest taboo is universal among cultures, but the definition of incest isn’t. Some permit marriages between first cousins, for example.
I actually used to know a guy who’d been having sex with his brother since they were teenagers. They were both really close and affectionate with each other — more so than any boyfriend-boyfriend couple I’d ever seen — and enjoyed the relationship, and I didn’t see anything unhealthy or controlling about the way they interacted with each other or the world at large. Likewise, there wasn’t anything dysfunctional about their family life (their parents didn’t know, of course). I won’t lie: I thought it was pretty weird at first, but I got used to it.
I would still see sex between a brother and sister as fucked up (because of the risk of inbreeding) or between a father and son (because of the age and power difference), but if two brothers or male cousins want to go at it and really enjoy what they’re doing, then I don’t see a problem. I would even say it shouldn’t really be considered “incest,” because that term usually implies inbreeding and/or lack of consent.” I couldn’t agree with you more.
tusgold
@I am 21 my brother is 24 and is a physicians Assistant. I have been madly obsessed with his love and approval since before 1o years old. When I was 111 and he was 14 I initiated sex with him so he wouldn’t find a girlfriend. Oh how simple that decision was. We are still together madly in love and our se life is off the charts. We don’t explain ourselves to anyone we have a 4 bedroom house and I have a pretend room cause I have to sleep with him and he prefers I go to bed when he does but doesn’t ask. I do it anyway. I am certain he is my life partner.
tusgold
me and my brother who is my life partner and fantastic lover got so much attention at gay bars cause everyone caught on to our charade in like a year at most. guys would just beg us to 3 way.
tusgold
@Alec: well my brother has been my lover since as 11 I am 21. We have a very stable relationship. No plans to adopt. He would absolutely never cheat on me. He is more loyal to me than even my own parents. I am nopassing up the perfect man over disapproval with no scientific basis. Maybe we will make you a porn tape
tusgold
@Strepsi: Plus my brother and I have decided against adoption due to the confusion