What a business.

Yep. Like my father used to say “monkey business”. LOL

Yes, Lutherans, like other religions, DO lie…often and badly!
We receive daily reminders of that basic truth.

Lura is a victim of her own choosing, however. Unlike LGBT people who had no choice in their sexuality, she and other practitioners and purveyors of religious fables DID have a choice.

Lura was not born with her religious belief system already in place and had no knowledge of it upon arriving on this planet.
It had to be drummed into her little head, by rote.

Unfortunately, as she matured and developed the ability to think things out logically for herself, she CHOSE to embrace and live the lies and thus fell from God’s grace.

And like the fable, where all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty back together again, none of us can put Pastor Lura back together again either. :(

only mentions “sexual orientation” – nothing gay, lesbian or transgendered. Well, except for this advertisement:

Check out the world’s leading publisher of annual telephone information guides directed at the professional gay and lesbian community:

What a business.

You said “if I asked my Congregation to sign the Declaration [Homosexuals are Not Wrong, Sinful or Deviant] they’d be confused.”

No – we’d be surprised. Our Congregation’s individual thoughts are not as clear as that simple statement. I think only half of us would sign it. We’re tolerated and accepted here. That’s a lot different than not being “wrong” anymore.

Personally, I don’t think you would be allowed make that very clear statement AND keep your job.

Let’s find out.

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts

If the past history of the church tells us anything, one should remain properly suspicious of specious declarations made by the organs of the church.

I think they need to make the statement:

Homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant.

That would be clear and convincing. Pastor Lura Groen (Houston) did, then backed off. I think she’s working on it. It would be a big step for her congregation and Lutherans. It would also be “grace.”

I don’t want to be “welcome.” I want to be equal. Their religion is on the wane (as it should be) and they are revising their doctrine to try and erase discrimination. That is good. What I want to know is how the Lutherans are going to rewrite Christian history to prove that they don’t/haven’t hated gay folk. After all, Christians claim they follow a mythical person who “loved all” even people like us. Let them prove it.

Score one for you too.

Lordy, I am beginning to feel like a ping-pong ball. lol

Seriously, however, what you say is true. While we always get to hear about the Christians who are “not like that” from so many posters on Queerty, they are, unfortunately, not the ones we are hearing from, are they? :-(

Point well made.

Needless to say, I am not holding my breath! ;o)

Remember that a church is its members; if they don’t nearly all agree, you’re going to have a tough time getting a clear, unambiguous statement.

Thanks, Josh.

Obviously, I was being facetious. There is absolutely no reason why we should accept the double-speak we are apparently getting from ECLA on faith alone.

They should state their position and state it clearly so there is no ambiguity instead of performing The Jarabe Tapatío (Mexican Hat Dance) for our amusement as well as our confusion.

“The Lutheran witness is undergoing transformation as we enter into a new time in the history of the Christian movement. The post-post modern world where we are called to bear witness is calling us to clarify our vision, mission, values, and strategies in new ways to reach a pluralistic world. The opportunity for us collectively and for congregations individually to examine why they exist and to claim their mission for the future is exciting and urgent.”

Part of that “exciting and urgent” mission is to right the wrong done to LGBT persons by signing the Declaration.

I will check regularly to see when Pastor Lura posts the Declaration.

… checking the website …

Faith!

Yep. Faith!

That’s what religion is all about you peeps. Faith.

Just as we must have faith that there is a sky-daddy, sky-pixies, miraculous conceptions, parting of seas, dead people rising from the grave, the concept of heaven and hell and other violations of the laws of physics, one has to have “faith” that the Church(s) have finally, after some two-thousand years, come around to a humanistic approach to the “problem” of homosexuality.

I don’t mean to imply that WE have a problem with homosexuality. THEY have a problem with homosexuality. And, a BIG one, at that.

Here’s the thing.

We don’t ask for God to reveal himself.

We don’t ask to examine the wings of Angels.

We don’t pluck their heavenly harp-strings to see if they actually play music.

We don’t ask Mary to produce a notarized birth certificate for baby Jebus.

We don’t ask for photographic proof of the parted seas.

We don’t ask for a YouTube video showing Christ rising into heaven.

And we don’t ask for a Google Map showing us the coordinates for Heaven or Hell.

We just accept all of the above on blind “Faith”, which is all we need,folks. God will take care of the rest. You know, like making sure that the Jamaicans continue to have a stream of wealthy gays that they can bash when their money runs out.

So. Why should we be asking for proof of the Churchs’ acceptance of homosexuality?

We got Faith, baby.

What more do you need?

This means YOU will sign the Declaration and post it in the Church lobby or something? That’s real easy. Nobody will be surprised or complain and we will ALL be very clear. That seems like a great step forward. I’d like to see that. It would give me a renewed sense of hope about so-called Christians. What a great example it would set for other Christians.

I think signing the Declaration would be a very positive step f o r w a r d. Please sign it.

Co-signnnnnnnn

Bing Crosby sang the lyrics to the following song back when I was a kid. He’s right on the money.

AC-CENT-TCHU-ATE THE POSITIVE (Mister In-Between)

(Johnny Mercer / Harold Arlen)

You’ve got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between

You’ve got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium
Liable to walk upon the scene

(To illustrate his last remark
Jonah in the whale, Noah in the ark
What did they do
Just when everything looked so dark)

Man, they said we better
Accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between
No, do not mess with Mister In-Between
Do you hear me, hmm?

(Oh, listen to me children and-a you will hear
About the elininatin’ of the negative
And the accent on the positive)
And gather ’round me children if you’re willin’
And sit tight while I start reviewin’
The attitude of doin’ right

(You’ve gotta accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between)

You’ve got to spread joy (up to the maximum)
Bring gloom (down) down to the minimum
Otherwise (otherwise) pandemonium
Liable to walk upon the scene

To illustrate (well illustrate) my last remark (you got the floor)
Jonah in the whale, Noah in the ark
What did they say (what did they say)
Say when everything looked so dark

Man, they said we better
Accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don’t mess with Mister In-Between
No! Don’t mess with Mister In-Between

Then why is it so hard, for your congregation, at least, to just come right out and say it, instead of acting like y’all are being backed into a corner to come right out reiterate what you truly believe, instead of taking the position that doing so would be “a step back”?

Sorry, Pastor Lura, but that sounds like plain, old-fashioned pussy-footing to me.

That’s very much like me saying that I have been an activist gay,, wholly pro-gay, for years, decades almost, a life-time in fact, and then you ask me to my face, “just for the record, are you gay?” and instead of saying loudly and proudly “Yes, I am gay”, I respond with…

“saying that I am gay would be a step back for me”.

Huh?

But I have a job, yes, a job, that I love to go to every morning, that is deeply connected to my beliefs and values, in which I can help individuals in my community, and talk about larger justice issues.

Dear Pastor Lura,

And talking about “larger justice issues” from within an organization that cannot even come to a simple agreement about such issues, is akin to Wall Street fat cats talking about improving the financial lot of people who just lost half of their life/retirement savings in the stock market.

We in the gay community do not doubt your personal good intentions. it is your affiliation that we doubt. But for we gays to believe, or worse yet, depend on an organization who clearly does not support LGBT people in the areas where it really matters, is a little like living in the hope that the Pope will send me a years supply of condoms to make sure I do not get AIDS.

It ain’t gonna happen. Not in this lifetime, anyway.

Let me put it to you yet another way and in terms that you can more easily grasp. Walking a mile in….etc., etc.

Suppose I worked for an organization that did not approve of the church, those who are in it’s employ, and even the membership who gather and pray in your houses of worship? Does that sound vaguely familiar to you, or are you not old enough to remember the WWII years? We saw religion brought to it’s knees in Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia.

Anyway, this mythical organization to which I belong and am a sworn member of and who has vowed to uphold the standards, rules and regulations of it’s anti-religious rhetoric, is dedicated to the destruction of your belief system and your church. And just like the church you are employed by, it will not rest until the CEO’s of your organization are brought to their knees in humble submission and a complete denial of your beliefs…like what the Mormons and the RC Church wants us gays to do, you know…deny our homo-sexuality and be celibate.

Now, I happen to meet you by chance, in a religions chatroom. What I am doing there in the first place, I really do not know. Nevertheless, we strike up a pleasant dialogue and I take a liking to you on a personal note. And so, as not to offend you, I tell you all sorts of nice, warm, fuzzy things about your church and it’s congregants and how I personally believe it is wrong for my organization to be condemning you and you church.

My question is? Would you be willing to believe that I, a man who is working for and receiving weekly compensation from an organization that has been dedicated for hundred of years to destruction of your belief system and the shuttering of your church, really has the best interests of you and your church at heart, not to mention putting you in the lines of the unemployed?

If I really feel this sympathetic toward you and the work the church is doing, would I not be working with an organization that will do everything in it’s power to assist you and your church, as opposed to working for an organization whose only interest is demoralizing it and tearing it down?

Food for thought, Pastor Lura.

How did I lie?

• There is no universal Lutheran statement that “gay is OK” or any equivalent. The Social Statement lays out four categories of opinion about homosexuality. They range from abhorrence to celebration. Nowhere in the Social Statement does it state that Lutherans now whole-heartedly endorse the full inclusion of LGBT people in the life of the Lutheran Church. It basically just describes the debate we’ve been having for the last couple of decades.

(by which, in light of the rest of this discussion, I do not mean “rolling in the dough.” I could be making more money even in non-profit work. But I have a job, yes, a job, that I love to go to every morning, that is deeply connected to my beliefs and values, in which I can help individuals in my community, and talk about larger justice issues. Sure, it pays my bills. And I get to wear dresses and pretty embroidery! Since when does the gay community criticize that? ;)

Co-sign, Brian’s comments.

You do enjoy being treated as a second-class citizen, no doubt and are in no rush to change that, correct?

I am delighted to be informed that you are such a fine, upstanding role-model for the rest of us lazy-assed queers who are all shivering with fright in the closet and doing absolutely nothing but complaining about the abuse we get from religious institutions like the Mormon Church, The RC Church, et al.

Instead of asserting what you find wrong with someone else’s life and action, how about saying what you find *right* about your own life and action to stop homophobia?

Way to go, Dude! Put the blame on the gays for all of the homophobia the religious institutions have been laying on us for centuries. It’s our fault that we are not meeting up with their expectations of us. Shame. Shame.

Like we need to prove ourselves to them or something like that?

Apologist!

The Federal Government is made up of “believers,” Christian believers. Nothing will change until we change those “beliefs” you embrace and sanction those beliefs by supporting Lutherans. Try to make that connection – it could save some lives. Saving lives is a big Christian thing. Save some homosexual lives – starting today.

What steps? Gays and Lesbians can work in the Lutheran organization. Wow. News Flash: Gays and Lesbians can work EVERYWHERE, including the White House. One might ask ‘what took Lutherans’ so long? There is nothing to celebrate or “encourage” in what Lutherans did. These little steps do nothing to end the “wrong” of being LGBT. Nothing.

“Just dumping on them because they haven’t done exactly what you want and done it immediately strikes me as juvenile.”

It is not what I want, but what the LGBT Community NEEDS. As long as we are “wrong,” we cannot be equal. +70% of Americans believe we are wrong, sinful or deviant – until that changes we’re screwed. Religion did that. Your failure to understand that is perhaps (your word) “juvenile,” or you simply put “Religion” before our Equality.

Decide what’s more important: LGBT Equality or your Faith – because your “faith,” and that of others, has caused ALL the pain and suffering of homosexuals. This year about 1,500 gay teens will kill themselves – religion did that. How long do YOU want to wait to change that crime? I don’t want to wait another minute and no, I can’t understand anyone not wanting to end that IMMEDIATELY.

Homosexuals lose their life because of religion. Are you really “encouraged” by tiny Lutheran steps? Really?

I am a Lutheran and an openly gay man who has asserted both of those elements of myself openly in all areas of my life: friends, family, work, and the church, to gays and straights and metrosexuals and all the rest. Harvey Milk was right–if everyone came out, it would pull the rug out from under homophobia.

So ante up. Let’s hear what you’re doing besides calling christians money-grubbing cooky homophobes in dresses.

Where will they get jobs telling stories and wearing dresses?

The primary purpose of most churches is not to raise money

Ah. That explains the pomp, splendor and the riches of the Vatican. Life is expensive and it costs money to live.

How could I overlooked that simple fact?

That also explains why the RC Church is the richest church in the world and controls more real estate than any other church on the planet.

and most people who are pastors, priests, whatever that branch calls them aren’t in it for the money

Not much different from the corporate world, is it? The peons do all of the grunt-work, and the CEO’s get the $10.5 million annual salaries and the huge bonuses. In the case of the RC Church, it’s the Bishops, Cardinals and the Pope who are the CEOs.

The church imitating life.

The primary purpose of most churches is not to raise money, and most people who are pastors, priests, whatever that branch calls them aren’t in it for the money (certainly not the ones who are any good) because if they were they could get more pay and/or less trouble elsewhere. But life is expensive, and the ones I know could only do a fraction of what they do if they had to make a living doing something else.

A “doctor” is “just” a job, too. But, I would suggest much more important than a member of clergy. Story-telling may seem important to you, but my friend need real, skill, experience and talent. He needed someone to “save” him, and they did.

Members of the clergy have some importance – I guess to those that believe them, but in the spectrum of jobs, I’d suggest it’s not very important.

The “Commission” is most likely not an earthly one.

They collect that after they die…by going to heaven. LOL