The Jamaican newspaper Jamaica Gleaner is normally home to rants about those jerkoffs in the United States who have a problem with the island nation’s celebrated culture of homophobia, and defenses from locals about Jamaica’s right to Christian-inspired gay hate. But herewith, an about-face from the rag!
Any conversation about homophobia and Jamaica must include a footnote about where it comes from: the faithful. Most anti-gay sentiment begins with the church. Which makes Gleaner contributor’s Keith Noel argument for tolerance all the more wondrous, since it leads off with some scripture.
The theoretical basis for our homophobia lies in our Old Testament attitudes. We believe that the Bible has made it quite clear that any and all forms of homosexual relationships are sinful and its perpetrators should either be expelled from our churches or should be counselled and prayed for.
The logic is that this behaviour, being terribly sinful, is ‘of the devil’ – the creator and instigator of all that is sinful. So in the churches that are more demanding of their members there are cries for the expulsion of persons who are found guilty of this behaviour. In churches where the tone is less stringent and more nurturing, the consensus would be for the priest (and whoever else in the church is qualified to do so) to counsel the guilty persons and for the church to pray for them, exhorting God Almighty to drive this demon of unnatural lust from their souls.
This, from a man who “long believed that all forms of homosexual behaviour was unnatural. It was ‘easy’ for me to think thus because I have always been repulsed by the idea of homosexual lovemaking. However, I considered myself quite liberal as I was one of those who advocated treating homosexuality like all other sins (including gambling, lust, lying and fornication) and so accepted gays simply as fellow sinners and prayed for them.”
So what’s changed for Noel? Well, Caster Semenya, who for all intents and purposes is intersex. And, apparently, she’s a good enough reason to find new conclusions about queers.
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
So the recent flurry of comments about Caster Semenya, the South African athlete, has interesting reverberations for us. We hear in the news that the IAAF will not penalise her because she did not cheat. She had lived her life as a woman and believed herself to be one. She had taken no hormones, no operations, nothing to give her masculine characteristics. Yet the reports are that she is not entirely female. These scientific studies are forcing many to realise that there is a masculine-feminine continuum and that some persons fall closer to the centre in this continuum.
[…] These persons, according to all the scientific evidence, are not sinful, corrupt ‘weirdos’, but persons who, at birth, (like Ms Semanya) had only some of the organs of the gender to which they belonged and, internally, had some of the organs of the other.
All of this seems to challenge an aspect of our Adam/Eve theory. If physically, persons are not placed so firmly and definitely in one gender by the Maker, what about psychologically? Does it not follow that some persons could, quite naturally (i.e. because of how they were born) find themselves attracted to persons who belong to the same gender? Or is it heresy to consider this?
Who would have thought it would take a South African track star and international athletics scandal to ignite a conversation in Jamaica that maybe, possibly, there’s a remote chance they’ve been wrong all along to target LGBTs?
(Caster, meanwhile, was just handed £1,600 from strip club Teazers for that awful billboard ad they created, and then defended.)
scott ny'er
well, first off. Kudos to Keith Noel for writing that and for addressing in himself and in his religion things that might be wrong.
Kudos for him to have the courage to publish this in that newspaper.
And oh man, he better get some protection before his peeps start thinking he’s a “batty-boy” because he has asked people to re-think how they perceive things.
alicia banks
until the insanity of hatred as godly ends globally
there will be no real change in jamaica or anywhere else
shame!
ab
When Caster Semenya’s gender was recently questioned, millions around the globe quickly came to her defense. Racists pretended similar tests had never been forced upon any white athletes. Sexists pretended they actually cared about any man who might cheat women in any way. And, droves of South Africans pretended that they had politically and socially evolved sexually.
Kudos to Semenya for enduring all of the humiliating gender madness with regal dignity! She sparked droves of uniquely intelligent discussions about the endless scientific complexities of gender and sexuality in all living species. Sexuality is scientifically documented as universally very gray. Only rabid sexists and religious fools feign that it is rigidly black and white.
Now, collective athletic obsessions have quelled. Thus, the deafening renewed silences about the ongoing alienations, tortures, rapes, and murders of homosexuals in Africa that occur each day. The sudden resumed silences about the routine slayings of lesbians who do not win gold medals are most certainly not golden…
In 2008, Eudy Simelane was brutally murdered by three human dogs in South Africa. She happened to be another famous athlete. She is dead because she also happened to be a lesbian. They finally happen to be on trial. May belated justice be served as sincerely as athletes are championed…
ALICIA BANKS
OUTLOOK
tarxien
That billboard is disgusting. Only £1,600??
And Alicia Banks, please don’t compare the subhuman monsters who raped and murdered Eudy Simelane as ‘dogs’. Dogs are intelligent animals who would never lower themselves to that level.
Sebs
what a shithole of a country
jason
I think all Jamaican men are bisexual in orientation. They probably fear their inner bi. I wonder if it reflects a fear of male-male promiscuity.
I’m a great believer that, while sexual orientation and promiscuity shouldn’t necessarily be confused, in many cases it is fear of the potential for male-male promiscuity which drives male-specific homophobia.
You only have to look at the promiscuity of the male-male pardigm within the existing gay communities in Western societies. In many cases, gay bars and nightclubs are simply excuses for rampant sexual activity.
jarvisbearcub
This is interesting, since the Old Testament doesn’t mention “the Devil.” Only “ha-satan” in Job who was an accuser only.
Kerry
Scawnful dawg nyam dutty pudd’n – http://wisejamaican.com
alicia banks
tarxien
ditto!
humans prove more each day that they are less than animals
see more on the homohating bs in jamaica
i have boycotted the bigoted islands for decades:
http://www.geocities.com/ambwww/reggae.htm
Brian
“The theoretical basis for our homophobia lies in our Old Testament attitudes. We believe that the Bible has made it quite clear that any and all forms of homosexual relationships are sinful and its perpetrators should either be expelled from our churches or should be counseled and prayed for.”
See? Homosexual = wrong is a very traditional Christian belief.
Chitown Kev
“You only have to look at the promiscuity of the male-male pardigm within the existing gay communities in Western societies. In many cases, gay bars and nightclubs are simply excuses for rampant sexual activity.”
Well. Not only Western societies. The Muslim regulations regarding women, for example, also feed male-male sexual behavior in Muslim countries as well, though it would be technically incorrect to call them “gay communities.”
Now if you have money, you can get away with quite a bit.
stuart
The photo used to illustrate this piece shows South Africans and the South African flag and not Jamaicans and the Jamaican flag.
AlanInSLC
@stuart:
That is because of the realization that Caster Semenya (pictured) had on Kieth Noel who the article features.
J. Clarence
“Who would have thought it would take a South African track star and international athletics scandal to ignite a conversation in Jamaica that maybe, possibly, there’s a remote chance they’ve been wrong all along to target LGBTs?”
I don’t know what is so surprising about the story of Semenya being the catalyst to make some Jamaicans rethink their opposition to homosexuality. Whether it be Susan B. Anthony or Marian Anderson, or one of them many others; it’s individual events that often trigger people to challenge previously long held notions. Much more so anyway than screaming and calling said people names.
Most definitely any conversation must include an attempt to put the religious scripture in its proper context; however, practically, just in terms of their obvious religious devotion, and methodologically it wouldn’t be the place I would start. Because as I have said here often there has to be something else that encourages homophobic Jamaicans and everyone else to focus so diligently on those six passages more so than the other passages of things that wrong or the good stuff that’s in there. If we can tackle that, religious opposition to homosexuality would go the way of our once held religious opposition to bacon and barbershops, or for that matter selling our women for livestock.
Brian
@J. Clarence:“Because as I have said here often there has to be something else that encourages homophobic Jamaicans and everyone else to focus so diligently on those six passages more so than the other passages of things that wrong or the good stuff that’s in there. If we can tackle that, religious opposition to homosexuality would go the way of our once held religious opposition to bacon and barbershops, or for that matter selling our women for livestock.”
Christians believe homosexuals are wrong. They need to end that belief/teaching. That IS the source of all LGBT pain, suffering and discrimination. Get rid of that religious idea and you will change the world – positively.
CitizenGeek
Jamaica really is a shitty, shitty place. I feel sorry for people unfortunate enough to be born into that horrifically backward country.
Kerry
@CitizenGeek: I wonder where you are from. We who were born in Jamaica are very proud to be a Jamaican. You can see your ignorance Jamaica is an island and it is the inhabitants that make it what it is. Think before writing.
B
Brian wrote, “Christians believe homosexuals are wrong,” while
the truth is that some do and some don’t. Don’t follow some of these Christians’ example – at least make an attempt to be technically accurate.
Josh
@B: “Brian wrote, “Christians believe homosexuals are wrong,” while the truth is that some do and some don’t.”
Really B? I have seen you post this many times without any proof. Instead of defending your love of religion – why not provide some proof? Not more of the MCC crap either – I used to attend MCC, they haven’t rejected the belief that homos are wrong or sinners. They’re just marketing to gays and lesbians.
I’m a UU now and they are close to making a formal statement about homosexuals. It’s not as necessary as the MCCers, because UU is not Christian.
I think I agree with what I believe Brian is trying to do – if some Christians are “the good ones” how do we tell? The good ones should reject the anti-gay beliefs.
You don’t help our Community “B” by misleading people.
David's Pants
Jamaica Hate = Christian
B
Josh wrote, “Really B? I have seen you post this many times without any proof. Instead of defending your love of religion – why not provide some proof? Not more of the MCC crap either…”
I gave you plenty of proof and you, like your clones, ignored it.
I imagine you will also (again?) ignore http://www.gaychurch.org/Find_a_Church/find_a_church.htm which provides a list of actual churches, complete with street addresses, and states specifically as its criteria, “All churches listed represent themselves in some form or fashion as welcoming Christian church (i.e. gay friendly). ‘Welcoming’ means that the church does not view homosexuality in and of itself as a sin and therefore they would welcome and treat a homosexual person no differently than any other person who walked through their church doors seeking Christ.”
And it isn’t “MCC crap” – the facts are that MCC was started by a gay minister who was booted from another denomination for being gay, and would hardly start a church based on the premise that being gay was somehow “sinful”. I really don’t care if you don’t go to MCC – I don’t either – but that is not a valid excuse for making false statements about them.
David's Pants
@B: Hey B, I can tell you must work in religion, but “Welcoming” means ahhhh welcoming, not that they have changed their beliefs. I looked at their list and found two Episcopalian Churches in my State. I know they haven’t changed their typical christian belief that we’re wrong or sinners because I asked. So far, all they’ve done is allowed gays and lesbians to work there.
I think Josh is correct. Stop misrepresenting what Christians believe. Anyone who thinks “welcoming” means “homosexuals are not wrong,” must be very gullible. It’s just marketing. You should know that Episcopalians are breaking up simply because some of the churches ‘welcome’ gays. Imagine what would happen if they stopped making us wrong and apologized to all LGBT people.
Christians still make us wrong unless they formally reject that belief.
I asked MCC for the proof that they have rejected that belief and they couldn’t provide it. It doesn’t matter if a gay person works there – it only matters if they end that belief. You should be asking why they haven’t done so, not lying about it.
Josh
B = B.S.
David
Josh
“I have seen you post this many times without any proof. Instead of defending your love of religion – why not provide some proof? Not more of the MCC crap either – I used to attend MCC, they haven’t rejected the belief that homos are wrong or sinners.”
Proof has been provided, repeatedly, in the form of citations to outside sources.
I not only used to attend MCC, I still do, and MCC explicitly, consistently, categorically reject ‘homosexuality is sin’.
You are lying. So is David’s Pants. Brian is spreading false information about the people of faith who are working to end prejudice against homosexuals, trying to minimize and marginalize their work, slander their character, and dehumanize them. By doing so, Brian is overtly nurturing homophobia and vilifying the group of people who have done the most to procure the civil rights GLBTQ currently have.
And for all the times you and Brian and Andrew and the other socks have been asked, no one has provided an example of even one atheist organization that is actively working to create civil equality for GLBTQ people.
Nor has anyone provided an example of an atheist organization that has explicitly, publicly stated ‘homosexuality is not wrong’.
In the whining from you and your peers, we basically have defenders of the group of people who have the done the least for GLBTQ equality, vilifying and dismissing the people who have actually done the most.
Josh
Linking to an “article” about Homosexuality is not evidence of the formal beliefs of MCC. How old are you 12? I’ve been through this with MCC – they have refused to issue any type of statement that “homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant.” They even said “it’s too complicated.”
MCC just markets to gullible gays and lesbians. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing. I think they have 10,000 members in the world, so it’s of no significance. Small time “con,” that’s all.
David
Josh
Why don’t you and Brian and Andrew come clean, and admit that you are actually students at a private, fundamentalist Christian middle-school in Texas (probably) or some other southern red state, flaming the threads here with the pretense of being gay atheists stirring up lies about leading gay orgs so you have an excuse to look at pictures of nearly-naked men.
The tell is the very obvious “Christians still make us wrong”.
See, real GLBTQ people consistently phrase the matter differently, using words like ‘teaches’ or ‘believes’ or ‘says’, externalizing the message ‘homosexuality is sin’. Real GLBTQ people consistently recognize that our sexual orientation is not wrong, it cannot be made wrong, it can only be labeled as wrong.
The phrasing your little team has consistently used ‘makes us wrong’ or ‘makes homosexuality wrong’ is different. You assert a change of state and it internalizes ‘homosexuality is sin’. You are actually expressing how heterosexual homophobes experience the judgement, not the way GLBTQ people consistently express their experience. Homophobes function under the assumption that their belief has the power to make something wrong. Fundamentalist religionists operate under the assumption that their beliefs make, determine, define right and wrong.
Y’all have consistently argued in a fashion that is typical of homophobes pretending to be gay – with unconscious slips that indicate a whole-hearted acceptance and commitment to the premise that homosexuality is wrong.
Please stop lying to us and to yourselves. No religion makes homosexuality, or anything else, wrong. Some religions believe and teach that this, that, or the other thing, is wrong, and the only people who truly get confused about that, are fundamentalists who have a need to inflate the material authority of religion.
David
Josh
“Linking to an “article” about Homosexuality is not evidence of the formal beliefs of MCC.”
Of course it is. It may not be the form you, personally, would like, but it communicates the explicit idea “MCC believes that homosexuality is neither sin, nor sickness”.
” I’ve been through this with MCC – they have refused to issue any type of statement that “homosexuality is not wrong, sinful or deviant.” They even said “it’s too complicated.”
As the twelve year old say – pics or it didn’t happen.
There is an explicit statement on the MCC website “Homosexuality: Not a sin, not a sickness”. They support that with very detailed analysis and rebuttal of the verses used to construct ‘homosexuality is sin’ – you “it’s too complicated” is among the most silly lies told by you and your peers. You dismiss the documents MCC makes available for being too detailed and too complicated, then expect anyone to believe they told you ‘it’s too complicated’?
Stop lying, Josh.
B
David’s Pants lied by saying, “@B: Hey B, I can tell you must work in religion, but ‘Welcoming’ means ahhhh welcoming, not that they have changed their beliefs.”
I don’t “work in religion” and you can’t read given the quote from that website that states “‘Welcoming’ means that the church does not view homosexuality in and of itself as a sin. It also asks readers to inform them if any church has misrepresented its position. You claim about two specific churches is suspect – if true, why didn’t someone complain before and have them removed from the list?
I’ll ignore most of the rest – it is a rehash of mindless personal attacks and misinformation that is typical of you and your friends (on the off chance that you are not all the same individual using multiple identities, which your use of stock phrases strongly suggests).
Josh
@David: God, you lie so easily. There is no formal Statement from MCC. None. They link to an article somebody else wrote.
How much do you get paid to lie on behalf of your Metropolitan Community Church brand of Christians?
David
Josh
Please stop making false accusations. The article was written by a member of the MCC clergy.
Do you understand that MCC is not a single human being? It is an organization of many, many people, and so your dismissal “somebody else wrote” is just childish excuse-making. Every text, in any circumstance, is something somebody wrote.
The text you and your peers dismiss is posted on the MCC website under the heading ‘our beliefs’. The concept expressed by that relationship is ‘MCC – we believe – homosexuality is not a sin, not a sickness’.
What part of that is confusing you?
By the way, MCC is one of the largest GLBTQ organizations in the world.
Is there any atheist organization in the world that explicitly and publicly states ‘homosexuality is not wrong’? Is there any atheist organization that is actively working to create civil equality for GLBTQ people?
If there were, why hasn’t anyone posted even a single example? At this point after more than a week and many requests, doesn’t the deliberate silence on the matter, from those of you who lie about groups that actually are working for GLBTQ equality, indicate that there simply are no atheist org that openly, explicitly and publicly support civil equality for GLBTQ people?
rudy
Somebody is nuts here.
Out of curiosity, I observed a MCC service conducted outdoors at our annual PrideFest.
At one point in the service all couples stood up, embraced, professed their love, and renewed their commitments. The service was all about praying for strength to fight for equality and the courage to be out.
In case you guys haven’t noticed from other posts, I’m no big fan of religion – but accusing the Gay Church of being anti-gay is just ridiculous.
Maybe they don’t like being told to sign Brian’s illiterate because it gives legitimacy to a tactic used by Nazis, Communists, the Vatican and the Christian Riight.
As an ACLU member, I wouldn’t either.
Josh
@rudy: You would be the first to admit that religion is a set of beliefs. We have many different brands of Christianity because there were disputes about “beliefs” and they split. Lutherans and Episcopalians are now splitting = simply because they have allowed gays to work there (clergy).
While MCC professes to be gay-friendly, they have never officially declared that they DO NOT share the traditional belief that homosexuals are wrong. It would be very easy for them to do, but they haven’t.
Because it is about the one thing that has defined us – and hurt all LGBT persons, it should be unambiguous. It should be very clear. They have refused to make that statement on several occasions.
It is fair to ask what their beliefs are. MCC has the opportunity to do that. Making LGBT people “assume” they have rejected that belief isn’t enough. They should say so, directly.
CitizenGeek
@Kerry: I was lucky enough to be raised in Celtic Tiger (the name given to the enormous economic boom) Ireland. I know Ireland still has to legalise gay marriage and all that but our musicians don’t display homophobic bigotry in their lyrics, our President has worked with gay rights activists in her past and had made some of the most affecting statements in support of gay people I’ve ever heard from any world leader, we have a gay Senator and discrimination based upon sexual orientation is forbidden under Irish and European law. If you want to compare Jamaica’s track record to Ireland’s on gay rights, I think Jamaica loses by a country mile. I am not ignorant about Jamaica; any country with such regular and accepted displays of the most horrific homophobia cannot be a nice place in which to live, sorry.
rudy
@Josh:
Again, in this country, you don’t get to put your words in other people’s mouths.
However well intended, whenever you do something in politics, you should always imagine your enemies doing the same, and if it sucks you drop the idea.
Insisting people sign Brian’s ridiculous statement is Joe McCarthy redux.
ThinkRealHard
Hey Rudy – Josh is correct. We need a way to tell which Christians are which. It’s very easy for supposed “gay friendly” churches and denominations to sign a very simple and direct statement. It’s not asking for anything but clarity. Since when is that McCarthyism?
@Me
Rudy: McCarthyism? Are you serious? Some Christians hate us and some tolerate us. Most still believe we are second class, damaged goods. And you don’t want to know which Christians?
When I was growing up in a country town, my parents were worried about the rattlesnakes in the area. They wanted to make sure I could identify them. So, they showed me pictures. We need something similar for the Christians that believe we are wrong and consequently – hate us.
I would think the good Christians would want to be separated from the bad ones, too.
Looks like it’s a win-win.
B
Rudy wrote, “Insisting people sign Brian’s ridiculous statement is Joe McCarthy redux.” … or McCain redux – during last year’s election, McCain staffers tried to get Obama to deny a false allegation, and some of the analyses of the issue pointed out that for tactical/strategic reasons, you don’t want to put yourself in a position where you have do to say, “I did not do X”. The reason is that what sticks in the public’s collective mind is the name associated with “I” and “X”, whatever “X” happens to be, so the denials end up reinforcing the lies one is trying to counter.
Brian et al have a counterproductive agenda – what would happen if they were not ignored is that people would hear “homosexuality” and “sin” or “wrong”, and the result would be an increase in homophobic public opinion. It’s also well known that you make more progress in attracting people if you put out positive messages, hence the old song, “Yes, we have no bananas,” or the Christians as the Castro Street Fair yesterday with the sign on their booth saying “Christian + gay = OK”. These churches, like most organizations, want to attract more members so they try to put out positive-sounding messages.
This being San Francisco, right next to the Christians were some Buddhists in their booth, while about 100 feet away, the Department of Public Health was trying to attract people walking by, using a 7 foot tall penis costume and a ring toss where the sticks the rings land on were actually dildos.
@Me
Another non-sensical Comment from B. But, at least one honest admission:
“These churches, like most organizations, want to attract more members so they try to put out positive-sounding messages.”
“Positive-sounding.” Got it. Don’t actually change the typical Christian belief that homosexuals are wrong (officially), but just put together some more marketing materials. How foolish that you think this a progress. It’s sales and marketing.
Every LGBT person knows that Christians have taught for centuries that we are wrong, bad, defective, etc. Now, some are becoming friendly. Well, how hard is it for them to make a very clear statement that they no longer hold those harmful beliefs? It would be as easy as making that sign you got excited over, but more importantly, it would let us know which Christians went beyond cheap “marketing” and actually made a difference.
David White wrote this in The Advocate the other day:
“It’s a hellish enough world out there for a lot of homo teens trapped in cartoonishly superstitious, scare-the-holy-fucking-shit-out-of-you churches (i.e., pretty much all of them, with few exceptions) where the fear of Satan is pounded into their heads. “
Few exceptions. Seems honest people know the problem – Christianity is the source of the idea that homosexuals are lesser human beings. Nothing else did that – just religion.
B, with his promotion of meaningless marketing is part of the problem. He’s afraid of Satan, too. How
unfortunatesilly.Kerry
@CitizenGeek. Well you are proud of your country and I am proud of mines irrespective of what others might think. We all have our opinions and I will not castigate a whole nation for a few. I know that Ireland has it’s negatives too should I accuse the whole nation. We were given choices by God and some makes theirs just the way you make yours. Stop coming down on my country. Every time one happen to come across this site it is all about Jamaica. I must say that you all giving Jamaica more publicity than the advertisement that JTB put out. Thank you so much for the free adverts.
I am sure the Minister of Tourism appreciate it very much.
B
“Me” wrote another mindless, ad hominem attack coupled with a lie: “Another non-sensical Comment from B. But, at least one honest admission: ‘These churches, like most organizations, want to attract more members so they try to put out positive-sounding messages.”
First, I wasn’t “admitting” anything – I was stating the obvious truth, which was consistent with all the other comments I made,
and since I’m not part of any of these religious organizations, there would be nothing for me to “admit” anyway. Second, I gave a very cogent description of why it would be stupid to sign these people’s silly “declaration” – one based on the strategies people use to win political campaigns.
“Me then purposely misinterprets what I wrote, ignoring the point that was being made: ‘”Positive-sounding.” Got it. Don’t actually change the typical Christian belief that homosexuals are wrong (officially.” Neither MCC nor the gay-friendly church I gave as an example has anything to change as they were not homphobic to begin with, and when one prominently displays the phrase, “Christian + Gay = OK”, it is obviously implying that there is nothing wrong with being gay. They are just expressing it in a positive way that they hope will attract new members. Why else do you think they’d bother to staff a booth at the Castro Street Fair if it wasn’t to recruit more members? Also, exactly why would anyone thing MCC should change “typical Christian beliefs”, real or imagined, when MCC has no authority over any other Christian sect and never held objectionable beliefs in the first place?
If you characters want a Christian church to sign your silly declaration, it is trivial to do – form your own Christian church and sign the damn thing yourself. Nobody can stop you – the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives you freedom of religion. Why don’t you simply exercise your rights? It would probably take you less time to do that than all the time you’ve spent ranting about it on QUEERTY.