Longtime LGBT activist and AmericaBlog founder John Aravosis is kind of a legend. He defended a gay sailor in the earlier days of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” He led a successful boycott of Dr. Laura 
Schlessinger’s racist and homophobic show and he outed GOP press bitch Jeff Gannon as a conservative operative and male prostitute.
But when it comes to the word “cisgender,” he’s largely ignorant.
In an article about Dan Savage’s second glitterbombing, Aravosis claims “cis” and “cisgender“—terms used to designate non-trans people in academia since at least the 1990s—were slurs akin to referring to heterosexuals as “breeders,” African-Americans as “colored” or transgender people as ‘trannies.” He implies that trans people use “cis” as a way to assert power and privilege over non-trans folk.
It’s kind of surprising that a white male would complain about privilege. As blogger Zinnia Jones points out, people seldom get to decide on the words used to describe them.
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Of course, Aravosis seems to have a bigger beef with the trans community. In a Salon article from 2007 he questioned how the “T” got into LGBT in the first place, and suggested it was transgender rights that was holding back the passage of ENDA.
In this instance, though, by calling cisgender a slur rather than accepting it as a connotation-free taxonomy, Aravosis seems to want to avoid any identity label that might put him at a disadvantage.
That’s a weird position for a writer, LGBT activist and lawyer to take.
Image via DailyKos, CampusProgress
EDITOR’S NOTE: The first sentence of the last paragraph has been edited since publication for greater clarity.
JAW
WOW… I totally agree with John!
It is a SLUR… who the HELL has a right to rename who I am. Trans people need to live their lives and not infringe on who the rest of us.
I hope that john is as successful at stopping this bull shit and put the Trans folk in their place
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!
christopher di spirito
John Aravosis is guy who wrote that the “T” in “LGBT” does not belong there. The moniker should be “LGB.” He has a peculiar disdain for trans folks and doesn’t want them attached to the queer political movement or designation.
Jaime Dunaway
@JAW: Does our “place” just happen to be somewhere below yours?
Cam
Can I point out something.
The author of this article is attacking the blogger for stating that the words Cis and Cisgender were derogatory terms used against non-transgendered. But then look at what HE HIMSELF WROTE IN THE PARENTHESIS…
“”Aravosis said that “cis” and “cisgender” (terms used to designate non-trans people) were “derogatory” slurs akin to “referring to straight people as ‘breeders,’ or transgender people as ‘trannys.’””
Interesting how he can write an article attacking Aravosis when in that exact same article he describes the terms as… “(terms used to designate non-trans people)”
Secondly, This author was the one who wrote multiple anti-gay articles on here, attacking gay couples for trying to get benefits, articles trying to say that bullying doesn’t cause suicides and even misquoting parents to make it seem like they felt that way, articles saying that men who slept with men weren’t really gay if they said they weren’t etc…
So there were many comments attacking those articles, and so recently it seems that there are a spate of articles from him attacking gays on the transgendered issue.
So now rather than attacking gays directly as he did in former articles, he is using transgendered folks as a cats paw to attack gays. What is his issue?
NelsonG
I’m of the belief John Aravosis a shyster; But in as much as I find Zinnia’s commentary awesome, she’s wrong. “CIS” is indeed being used as a slur, it’s being used as such by transgender activists such as Autumn Sandeen and others to demonize gay men.
Ian
I’ll admit I don’t know enough about this issue to say that “cisgender” references are derogatory. I highly doubt that trans people use the terms as slurs.
That said, Daniel’s statement that it’s “troubling that a gay white male should get to decide what words apply to him” is itself troubling. First, your statement implies that it’s troubling because it’s a gay white male making the self-identifying choice. Second, why is it troubling for any person — regardless of gender identification — to make a choice about how to self-identify? Shall we set up a committee to decided and hand down an edict on what is acceptable or not? I fully support trans people’s right to self expression and self-identification. Should I not support that same right for a “gay white male”? Does supporting our trans brothers and sisters require that we vilify or demonize the “gay white male”? Isn’t there a better argument to be made that, contrary to Daniel’s implication, ALL people deserve the unfettered right to self-identify?
JAW
@Jaime Dunaway:
Not at all… We all walk side by side. There seem to be a small, but Very vocal, group of Trans folk who feel that they control all of us. The people I mention are by and large M2F Trans people. The friends that I have who are F2M live as males, not trans male… but males, Just like I do.
They do not get the cis thing either.
The small minority of Trans people that want everything THEIR way, can’t always get it their way. They need to stop trampling everyone else as they strive for their rights.
GreatGatsby2011
This is just silly. It’s called language. When a new concept (such as transgender) comes to light a word must be created to define those not encompassed by that concept. It’s not a racial slur, it’s just being used to distinguish one group from another. Cisgender as opposed to transgender. The concept of “caucasian” didn’t exist until the first caucasian person met someone of another ethnicity and the need to make a distinction was created. You can’t have a one sided coin, it’s physically impossible. That’s not to say it CAN’T be used as a slur but ANY word can be with enough hatred put behind it.
Jaime Dunaway
Speaking as a trans woman, I don’t find cis offensive in the least:P
And really, some people could use just about any word to desribe a group of people and it could come off as slurry sounding. I’m starting to get the idea that those who have an issue with any use of the “cis” designation are really having a problem being labeled something other than “normal” and they’re not liking that feeling. Just my impression of it all after reading many comments on numerous blogs. And then reading that we need to be put in our “place” just kind of drives that perception a few steps further.
Daniel Villarreal
@Cam: I’ve never written an article “attacking gay couples for trying to get benefits”, an article that says “bullying doesn’t commit suicide” (though I did write an article saying that depression is an often overlooked element of why some bullied kids commit suicide while others don’t. While you may claim that I misinterpreted Jamie Hubley’s dad, I certainly did not misquote him. And sleeping with a man makes a guy no more gay than sleeping with several women has made me straight.
Wh1t
@JAW:
“It is a SLUR… who the HELL has a right to rename who I am. Trans people need to live their lives and not infringe on who the rest of us.”
Who is renaming you? It’s an adjective, not a name-change.
How is it an infringement on your life?
“Cis-” is Latin for “On the same side of,” it’s the opposite of “Trans-” meaning “on the opposite side of.” It’s used to denote the differences between trans-peoples and cis-peoples. There’s nothing derogatory about it.
@Cam:
“Interesting how he can write an article attacking Aravosis when in that exact same article he describes the terms as… “(terms used to designate non-trans people)”
He’s attack Aravosis on the basis of Aravosis’ ignorance to the use of the prefix “cis-” and how Aravosis idiotically believes it to be a slur, the author is not attacking him on the basis of using the words.
@NelsonG:
““CIS” is indeed being used as a slur, it’s being used as such by transgender activists such as Autumn Sandeen and others to demonize gay men.”
Except we use it to identify all people who aren’t trans (I.E. all people whose gender and sex are in unison). So how is it just demonizing gay men? If anything it’d be demonizing everyone who isn’t trans (Alas, it’s not though).
@JAW:
“The friends that I have who are F2M live as males, not trans male… but males, Just like I do.”
Because cis- is the “norm” and anything else is “other” and we have to live to be cis-.
Jaime Dunaway
@JAW: Oh, I disagree with the tactics of a number of “activists” as I find them offputting if you are trying to actually get people on your side. Instead, I feel they are driving allies and potential allies away.
I know that in my own experience, people tend to treat me with respect and even come to be fine with my transness if I treat them with respect as well. I wish many of those self appointed spokespersons would do the same, but I fear that’s not going to happen too soon, too much anger built up and they seem to enjoy feeding it themselves.
I think I’m just going to go back to the bunny rabbit label and just enjoy munching the clover before its all gone for winter.
JAW
@Jaime Dunaway:
That is just silly… Speaking as Male… I do not find tranny and t-girl offensive in the least 😛
I try to call Trans people what they want to be called… From what I hear… Transexual is out as are tranny and t-girl… I do not use them… when I introduce my trans friends… I introduce them as Mark and Brian… nothing else is needed. They introduce me as Mike… not my cismale friend Mike… Just Mike
the crustybastard
Aravosis is a thin-skinned partisan tool.
I posted on Americablog that — rather than lobbying our representatives to vote for the so-called “legislative repeal of DADT” (a shitty tweak of a law that continues to discriminate) — gay servicemembers would be better served if the community lobbied our representatives to pressure the Obama Administration not to appeal the excellent decision in LCR v Gates (holding the entire military gay ban facially unconstitutional), allowing the decision to stand.
For promoting this sensible legal strategy on his blog, rather than getting on the bandwagon supporting the Democratic party’s foot-dragging half-a-loaf diddlefuck “repeal,” Aravosis banned me. LOL.
Meh. Don’t miss his blog or the gaggle of frothing antisemitic nimrods who comment there.
Daniel Villarreal
@Ian: I am not demonizing a gay, white male. But I certainly don’t want anyone of any race or gender identity deciding what’s offensive based purely on whether they feel slighted—the same would go for a straight black woman, a Hispanic trans man or a Native American Two-Spirit. Offense should derive on the context and history of the word and Aravosis has failed to establish that either should offend in the case of “cisgender.”
Also, while it is not troubling for any person — regardless of gender identification — to make a choice about how to self-identify, that’s not what Aravosis is doing. He is making a choice about how other people identify him… and he doesn’t get to be arbiter of that.
Words have meaning. I am a Mexican. I may not like the way that word is used sometimes to disparage Hispanics, but I am still a Mexican whether I like the word or not because it is true. The same goes for a cisgender person like Aravosis.
We English speakers HAVE set up a committee to decided and hand down an edict on what is acceptable or not. It’s called the dictionary and the meanings of each words holds a generally accepted use, no matter what any detractors say to the contrary.
SteveC
The ONLY time I have ever heard the words ‘cis’ or ‘cisgender’ used is on internet topics related to trans issues.
And invariably in those contexts it is used as a slur to silence debate. Along the lines of ‘But you are a privileged, cis, gay, white male, what would you know?’
In real life I never hear the word. I imagine that very few people have heard the word, understand it or use it.
Jaime Dunaway
@JAW: Honestly, I see these labels as something to use when referring to groups of people when its necessary to differentiate those groups within a discussion, otherwise, yes, anyone should simply be themselves, with their own names and such. It took a while to get a good friend of mine to stop telling people that I am trans just to make himself look so accepting or whatever the heck was behind it all.
And yeah, I’m often a pretty silly person irl as well as online, I was born that way:-)
Ian
@Daniel Villarreal: If words matter, and I agree with you that they do, then why do you write the following:
“But it’s troubling that a gay white male should get to decide what words are “real”, what words are slurs and what words should apply to him.”
Either you were being careless about your choice of words -or- you were literally saying that it’s troubling for a “gay white male” to make the choice you note. Is it just troubling because a “gay white male” is doing it? Or is it troubling for any person to do it? Get it? Words do matter indeed.
Wh1t
@SteveC:
Sounds like a matter of relativity, to be honest.
Just because _you_ don’t hear it anywhere else, does not mean it isn’t used anywhere else.
(Personally, I use it all the time (that’s including normal discussion) and hear it all the time in normal conversation. Plus, rarely am I ever in, or hear a “you have cis-privilege” argument; I don’t use that argument- albeit I am trans and easily could.)
Daniel Villarreal
@Ian: Because homosexuality, caucasian, and men have privileged status over transgender, non-white women and transexuals, the idea that John Aravosis should be the arbiter of words used to designate non-trans people is particularly troubling.
Cam
@Daniel Villarreal: said…
“@Cam: I’ve never written an article “attacking gay couples for trying to get benefits”, an article that says “bullying doesn’t commit suicide” (though I did write an article saying that depression is an often overlooked element of why some bullied kids commit suicide while others don’t. While you may claim that I misinterpreted Jamie Hubley’s dad, I certainly did not misquote him. And sleeping with a man makes a guy no more gay than sleeping with several women has made me straight.”
______________________________
Lets break that down.
1. You said you’ve never written an article attacking the couple for trying to get benefits. “You are right, the author of that was Dan Avery, I mixed up the first names, my apologies.”
2. You said you never wrote an article claiming that suicides are not primarily related to the suicides of gays. Your quote in this article “the Ottowa teen’s suicide seems to have been prompted primarily by a chronic depression rather than bullying at school.” neglects to even consider that the constant bullying according to therapists can CAUSE depression.
Additionally, you wrote that the teens father said that bullying was not the cause of his son’s suicide. Even though the fathers words were “We will not say that the bullying was the only reason for Jamie’s decision to take his own life but it was definitely a factor.”
After complaints from posters you altered the beginning of the article to correct that.
3. And lets not forget your article saying that the fight for marriage was HURTING gays in the fight for rights (http://www.queerty.com/is-the-battle-for-marriage-costing-us-the-war-for-full-equality-20110222/)
4. Or this article defending the rights of homophobic foster parents (http://www.queerty.com/denying-foster-kids-to-anti-gays-parents-a-bad-choice-20110228/)
5. As for sleeping with men not making a man gay you left out something important.
a. the study you cited in the article did not investigation, they listed a man as straight only because he said he was.
b. Your sleeping with women gains you societal acceptance and can be a way to hide being gay. Sleeping with men secretly gains them no such thing. Failing to see the difference is a bit surprising considering you are a writer.
NelsonG
@Wh1t: The term was reappropriated by transgender activists to attack and smear gay men. See comment 16 for the rest.
Scott
@ No. 2 · christopher di spirito
>> John Aravosis is guy who wrote that the “T” in “LGBT” does not belong there…
That’s an interesting idea. The trans folk I know don’t identify as gay or lesbian because they are attracted to the opposite sex, for instance those born physically female but identify male so see themselves as straight in their attraction to women. Do trans people feel like outsiders in the gay rights movement?
JAW
@Jaime Dunaway:
it is Trannies like u that give the rest of the Trans community a bad name. There is no need to give labels to anyone.
One of the original comments also mentioned removing the T from GLBT… From what I have been told, there is a large part of the Trans movement that wants it removed. There are many Trans people that live lives at Straight and they do not want to be associated with G&L people… that is their choice.
Cam
@Daniel Villarreal: said…
“@Ian: Because homosexuality, caucasian, and men have privileged status over transgender, non-white women and transexuals, the idea that John Aravosis should be the arbiter of words used to designate non-trans people is particularly troubling.”
_________________________________
Ahhhhh, this is very similar to the phony statement back in the 80’s that minorities couldn’t be racists because “Race plus power equal racism”. Well racism is a judgement based on race. So anybody can be racist.
Your statement is the old “Parade of victimhood” meaning that the largest victim somehow has more validity to their statements. Can you please let us know how that breaks down?
Does a white FTM trump a black lesbian? Does a Native American gay man get more weight to what he says than an Asian gay man or vice versa? Do FTM’s get less say than MTF’s because they are now males?
Please provide the breakdown so we all know who to listen to.
QJ201
I’m so f*cking tired of this early 90’s queer theory bullsh*t that basically promotes the idea that if you are male, gay and white, you are part of the problem and by definition “an oppressor.” I did take a course in queer theory in grad school and after a few weeks the other “white gay men” in the class and I collectively decided to stop participating in any class discussions. Didn’t matter what we said, we were constantly attacked by our classmates and the professor did not intervene at all. Somewhere near the end of the term, the professor pointedly asked one of us a question and the student replied “As a white gay male, my opinion is irrelevant to this discussion.” The class then attacked him and then one by one the rest of us for refusing to participate.
Cisgender is indeed a slur because it is typically used as a slam against people that trans people have some issue with. Do trans activists have some special powers that allow them to see into my brain and examine my own sense of gender to label me as cis? Just because I have a penis and have no discomfort with having it does not mean that I have incorporated mainstream culture’s concept of masculinity into my identity.
Jaime Dunaway
@JAW: You using that term give gay men a bad name in my book. The term “cis” isn’t really aimed at just you people, its supposed to simply differentiate between trans and non trans. Would you all prefer non trans or are you on the whole “normal” bandwagon when labels are needed for discussion of trans and non trans issues? AS I said earlier, labels are sometimes needed for groups of people to let someone know what group of people you are referring to.
I can’t help what the more rabid and hateful members of my “community” do or say, most of them seem to just want to hear their own voices most of them time.
I don’t like being called a “tranny” and since you so quickly whipped that out there, I’m done discussing anything with you.
caris in jax
@Daniel Villarreal if it is the “context and the history of a word” that concerns you as to wether or not it is offensive, than perhaps you should consider what context and history that is building up around a word. Is the word being used as a slur? If it is why shouldn’t the people that find it being used as a slur object to it? Who better to decide if a word is being used culturally to demean them than the group it is being used on?
As for a the dictionary deciding what words mean, you have a much different interpretation of the situation than I do. The dictionary (by the way which one Websters? American Heritage?) doesn’t decide what a word means, but instead simply records what the people writing it beleives to be the most common usage of the word to be. I had one straight acquaintance that attempted to use the dictionary to “prove” that people do not have “genders” that it was a term that could only be applied to other words. He was wrong, and you are incorrect. The meaning of words come from how they are used not from what the dictionary says (I would be reluctant to ever refer to a female canine by the proper dictionary correct term in public; you know that whole history and context thing), and if a term like cisgendered get used as a slur often enough, it becomes a slur, regardless of how it is used by professionals and responsible people.
Jim Hlavac
So let me get this straight, Transgender people (who seem to be mostly men, despite Chaz, of course,) claim they are in the wrong bodies — and so they get a medical treatment to become women, so they can get a gender change on their birth certificates, so they can find the man of their dreams and get married as heterosexuals. Well, I’d say that makes them heteros. Now, good luck for all they do, of course — but the “T” is LGBT is really a harm, to gay men particularly.
For the average heterosexual person already believes gay folks are gender confused — and the “T” just adds to that. It was a political mistake from the beginning — and the moment that it was added to L and G I said adios to all gay political groups. I’m not gender confused whatsoever, and I don’t like being lumped in with people who want to slice off what I would protect dearly — don’t touch my junk, indeed.
Meanwhile, transgendered people have gotten CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, and FOX specials, coverage, and reports and who knows how much press — while these “friends” in the media have yet to really cover gay men. And lo, the public is further reinforced with the idea that we’re all transsexuals waiting to come out.
And I’d throw the “B” out too, for I find that they are always married or with girlfriends, but running ads on the internet and they act “str8t” and such — give me a break.
Maybe I’m old fashioned, for I come from a time where we gay guys were the focus of our efforts to be accepted as gay men and now I have to defend myself that I’m gay and not a transsexual in waiting. Sure, Bi- and Trans can go agitate for whatever it is they want — what do I have to do with it? Nothing, absolutely nothing. And now “Q”? Boy do I question questioning, that’s for sure. How many other letters must I allegedly be allied with to be Politically Correct?
Mav
“And lo, the public is further reinforced with the idea that we’re all transsexuals waiting to come out.”
^ I call bullshit on this – if anything, most people assume that transgendered folks are simply confused (or repressed) homosexuals who want to change genders in order to avoid being identified as having homosexual attractions. In other words, people think that we’d rather self-mutilate than admit that we’re queer. Not true of course – try explaining to people that gender identity has SO MUCH MORE to do with your selfhood than your sexuality – but I can’t control the thoughts of those fools, I can only control my own. So I don’t bother.
In any case, being gay is *much* more common than being transgender/transsexual. Think 10% of the population vs. <1%. So any general assumption that gay men are secret transsexuals is an asinine one in the first place, and I couldn't take anyone seriously who put forth that hypothesis.
SteveC
I do admit that my knowledge of trans issues is limited.
My only exposure to trans issues is online.
I rarely take part in any discussions because of the sheer aggression on display by the trans activists on those threads.
And sorry to point this out – maybe the word ‘cis’ is a neutral term. I would say that in about 90% of the cases where I’ve seen it used, it’s as an insult or a slur, or to tell someone that their opinion is irrelevant.
The internets is a place for extreme views and behaviors I realise. But my experience reading trans topics online does not make me very sympathetic to the trans cause.
Mike
@Jaime Dunaway: Don’t even worry about JAW, I was watching your conversation with him and he was just waiting to say something nasty; it wouldn’t have mattered what the conversation consisted of. You were just fine.
christopher di spirito
I have a friend who is a former regular at America Blog. Former because he says John Aravosis would con people into donating money to his cut-and-paste operation, promising all sorts of bells and whistles if a certain ca$h goal was reached.
Long story short, America Blog never changed.
The donations went to fund Aravosis’ yearly vacation to Paris.
Mav
Interfactional GLBT politics bore the bejesus out of me.
I think everyone needs to remember the Sicilian proverb, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
JAW
@Jaime Dunaway:
***You using that term give gay men a bad name in my book. The term “cis” isn’t really aimed at just you people, its supposed to simply differentiate between trans and non trans***
And you using the term cis give trans people a bad name in my book… guess that we are even.
I you feel a need to differentiate between wh we are then make it simple… I am mal and you are trans male. Since you identify as trans male that is soooo easy to use.
I find cis male as hurtful as you find tranny… That is a word I do not normally use. I used it here to make the point. Do not use words for males that most of us find hurtful and offensive.
Daniel Villarreal
@caris in jax: Many dictionaries will denote when words like niggardly and bitch have potentially pejorative or derogatory connotations. until there is a massive pushback on cisgender the way there has been on nigger and bitch, Aravosis lacks the historic context to definitively deem the word a slur.
@Cam: All I said is I don’t want one gay white guy deciding cisgender is a slur because it hurts his feelings. I elaborated in the comments that I wouldn’t want any individual acting as such arbiters, and others have pointed out Aravosis’ own trans-exclusionary tendencies making this gay white man an even worse arbiter as to what trans people use as slurs.
As for enumerated list of grievances against me, if you have gathered from all my work at Queerty that I am anti-gay and pro-bigot, then there is no need for further discussion. Queerty prides itself on challenging reader assumptions with counter-intuitive and occasionally unpopular arguments. I’d rather we consider these viewpoints and openly discuss them than to feel as if their mere mention will somehow overpower and destroy the movement.
But if you prefer silence and writing that will reinforce your current viewpoints, there are plenty of other LGBT news outlets that will cater to such myopia.
beergoggles
There’s a reason why it’s called self-identification and not labeling by another group. If you can’t call a gay man a ‘gay man’ and insist on relabeling them ‘cis’ something or another, you are imposing your labels on another and you have no grounds to complain when other people do the same by identifying you as ‘she-male’ or another label not of your self-identified choice.
It’s about respecting other people’s choices and if you cannot do so, you shouldn’t be expecting reciprocity.
JAW
sorry for these mistypes
***I you feel a need to differentiate between wh we are then make it simple… I am mal and you are trans male. Since you identify as trans male that is soooo easy to use.***
It should read…
If you feel a need to differentiate between who we are then make it simple… I am male and you are trans male. Since you identify as trans male that is soooo easy to use.
Jim Hlavac
And what’s even more galling, now that I think about it, gay men are being taxed to pay for the transgendered guys to become heterosexual women — since Medicare/caid is now willing to pick up the tab for the operations.
I find the term “people of color” absolutely outrageous for it supposedly denotes all who are not “white” — so what? I’m not a color? What am I? Transparent? I’m a person of color indeed, a rather pinkish, tawny, yellowish, tan color — ergo, I’m a “person of color” too, just not the “preferred” color.
And of late, on every form for some gov’t agency or even a regular survey for toothpaste or something I see: African-American, American-Indian, Latino, Hispanic, Pacific Islander, Asian, and who knows what other geographic denotation — and “white.” And I simply change it to “European-American.” I despise “Caucasian” too, for the Caucasus Mountains are in West Asia, in Iran, Azerbaijan, Turkey and Armenia — who are, oddly, “people of color.” And there’s no “white” folks there at all.
This politically correct stuff is just so ridiculous already it’s mind boggling. And so as a European-American gay man I’m not happy with LGBTQXYZ at all, nope.
Daniel Villarreal
@beergoggles: By that reasoning if a Hispanic calls an African-American person “black” or “a person of color”, and the African-American person doesn’t want that label imposed on them, they have a right to call the Hispanic person a “spic”, “wetback” or “beaner”? No, of course not. That’s not reciprocal in the least.
Cisgender is a value neutral term. It’s unfamiliarity may offend some people, but it’s not a slur in the same way that “she-male” is.
Jaime Dunaway
@JAW: In one of my comments, I plainly identified as a woman. Nice misgendering there, fella. I didn’t really notice it so much in your previous post.
And really, do you think you are furthering any sort of reasonable discussion with your attitude and apparent hatefulness?
Have a great day:-)
caris in jax
@Daniel Villareal How can the massive push back, that you claim is necessary, happen if we automatically dismiss the claims of it being used as a slur on the individual basis. Your choice to include niggerly is interesting, since you can not make a case that the word has a historical or contextual basis to be racially offensive. The entire basis of its offensiveness is that it sounds like a different racial slur. By your arguement, anyone that claimed it was offensive should have been mocked and critized for it. There was a time when a word like faggot didn’t have a history, did that make the first people that objected to its use wrong, or just the first to point out that it was being used as a slur?
Cam
@Daniel Villarreal: said… “@Cam: All I said is I don’t want one gay white guy deciding cisgender is a slur because it hurts his feelings.”
______
No, what you said was.
“But it’s troubling that a gay white male should get to decide what words are “real”, what words are slurs and what words should apply to him”
____
Which is interesting
1. Actually it is fairly common for the group that the word is directed at to decide if the word is a slur.
2. Why your continual use of Aravosis’s race in what is a non-racial discussion? We are talking about transgendered people in this post and yet you continually refer to the “White Male” which would obviously point out that you have a bias.
You also stated “Queerty prides itself on challenging reader assumptions with counter-intuitive and occasionally unpopular arguments.”
That is the problem, being so desperate to put up a “Counter ARgument” ceases to be an excuse when you are defending a homophobic anti gay couple’s right to be foster parents to gay kids, or claiming an exemption for bullying in depression and suicides, or trying to attack fighters for gay rights claiming that they are hurting the cause.
Your own words then would seem to be that either you make an effort to put something down there specifically because it is unpopular just to get a rise, OR that you actually believe it.
One is fake and a sad way to run an informational blog, the other would indicate that you believe those opinions, which, with your attacks on Arravosis’s “Whiteness” included in the mix would seem to indicate you have major problems with anybody you do not see as “Oppressed” Whites, the overall gay community etc… Which again, are your own issues and should be dealt with personally and not used to attack others.
If ARravosis stated that something you said was not valid because you were a “Latino Male” you would be calling him a racist in a second. But you say the exact same thing about him and don’t even see that your comment is racist.
MattCA181
If someone considers them self a male or female, I accept it and move on. To me it’s incredibly stupid to have to keep segregating everyone into smaller and smaller labels of who we/they are. Everyone ends up with a lame checklist of everything they see themselves to be.
Who cares. It just comes across as narcissistic and too self-involved for me.
I personally do think that transgendered people should be a part of the LGBT acronym because they too are a sexual minority and deserve the same rights as everyone. However, they at the same time are not a part of LGB community in the larger sense unless they have same-sex attractions. We all do need to work together for equal rights.
The hardcore trans activists really do need to tone down the rhetoric and misplaced calls to action because it just ends up giving the wrong idea about who trans people are. If a misunderstanding occurs, having a sense of humor really helps. Being up in arms and ready to fight at the slightest perceived insult does no one any good. It just keeps all the walls in place, and slows down progress.
phil
“blah blah blah blah” – couldn’t even make it through the whole thing – like some horrible instructional video. john avarosis is a great blogger who does more for our community than most of us. possibly misunderstood, his intentions with this are on the right side.
John
@Daniel Villarreal: So you’re trying to say the status gay white men have in society is privileged and not based in the natural rights they deserve?
Please sir, how can you seriously describe yourself as a proponent of gay rights? That very statement legitimately undermines some of the most basic things our movement has striven for. Yes, gay people do currently have more rights. That doesn’t mean they are “privileged”
Wh1t
@NelsonG:
“The term was reappropriated by transgender activists to attack and smear gay men. See comment 16 for the rest.”
Except for the fact that the word is used as a greater extent to refer to people whose sex and gender are in unison.
I’m a Trans-rights activist and yet I don’t smear gay men. I smear individual people when they’re bigoted, or try and correct those who are wrong. I don’t smear an entire group, if they all happen to be of the same group it’s coincidence, otherwise I try and correct every race, gender, sex.
@Scott:
“That’s an interesting idea. The trans folk I know don’t identify as gay or lesbian because they are attracted to the opposite sex, for instance those born physically female but identify male so see themselves as straight in their attraction to women. Do trans people feel like outsiders in the gay rights movement?”
>Some feel that way due to to the bigotry some have against trans-people. However, I personally identify as a pansexual trans-female and I’m currently in a (lesbian) relationship with my girlfriend.
@JAW:
“it is Trannies like u that give the rest of the Trans community a bad name.”
>Way to go around name-calling with a transphobic slur. I’m glad that doesn’t give _you_ a bad name.
>Yes I am trans and find “tranny” offensive.
There is no need to give labels to anyone.
>D’wha? You just labeled someone as a “trann[y].”
There are many Trans people that live lives at Straight and they do not want to be associated with G&L people… that is their choice.
Well I know many more who do identify (at least as an ally) with the LGB(QQPPA) movement than those who don’t. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel as if you’re relating to the Transsexual Separatist movement- which wants to distance itself from the transgender group, and not necessarily with LGB(QQPPA)s.
@QJ201:
“Cisgender is indeed a slur because it is typically used as a slam against people that trans people have some issue with.
Actually, no: It’s typically used to identify people who aren’t trans.
“Do trans activists have some special powers that allow them to see into my brain and examine my own sense of gender to label me as cis? Just because I have a penis and have no discomfort with having it does not mean that I have incorporated mainstream culture’s concept of masculinity into my identity.”
Transgender relates to your sex and gender not being in unison. The idea of “culture’s concept of masculinity” does not directly relate to transgenderism. That concept of masculinity falls under the feminist realm of the idea of freeing males from the strict confines of idea of “If you’re a man you do ‘this’ and not ‘that.’” If you are biologically male and identify as male (whether or not you conform to society’s definition of male) you’re cis. If you don’t identify as male, you fall under the transgender umbrella.
Wh1t
@QJ201:
“Cisgender is indeed a slur because it is typically used as a slam against people that trans people have some issue with.
Actually, no: It’s typically used to identify people who aren’t trans.
“Do trans activists have some special powers that allow them to see into my brain and examine my own sense of gender to label me as cis? Just because I have a penis and have no discomfort with having it does not mean that I have incorporated mainstream culture’s concept of masculinity into my identity.”
Transgender relates to your sex and gender not being in unison. The idea of “culture’s concept of masculinity” does not directly relate to transgenderism. That concept of masculinity falls under the feminist realm of the idea of freeing males from the strict confines of idea of “If you’re a man you do ‘this’ and not ‘that.’” If you are biologically male and identify as male (whether or not you conform to society’s definition of male) you’re cis. If you don’t identify as male, you fall under the transgender umbrella.
Mav
If being called “cisgendered” hurts your feelings when you ARE cisgendered, I don’t know what to tell you, other than, “Please look up the etymological origins of ‘cis’. Kthnxbai.”
“Cisgendered” is no more a slur than “lawyer”, but both words can be offensive depending on their usuage.
Ex. “John is a lawyer.” vs. “Get out of my wallet you bloodsucking lawyer!”
Context is your friend, people.
the crustybastard
Aravosis’ argument is about as substantial as a redneck being upset by the term homo sapien “because I ain’t no homo.”
Mav
Usage even.
Will
Hello people?
I would think that the the transgender community along with the gay, lesbian, and bisexual community would have better things to put their time and energy to other than word semantics like maybe FIGHTING FOR EQUALITY AGAINST THOSE WHO ARE IOPRESSING US?
Daniel Villarreal
@Cam: Aravosis is not a “group”, he’s one guy. John should check his privilege and that has as much to with his race, gender and sexuality as it would for anyone else. John calls “cisgender” a slur, that is invalid. It is invalid and as a gay, white male with a history of trans exclusion, his claim is also suspect. And no, if he said that about me, I wouldn’t consider it racist in the least. John and I are both thick-skinned individuals.
You have your opinion about me and trying to combat it is tiresome. Hell, you couldn’t even check the byline on an article you ascribed to me in your haste to build a case. Sometimes I write things to get a rise out of people. I usually write things I agree with and sometimes those opinions change. I pity anyone who gets all their information from here.
That’s all I’ll say on this subject.
Roxxy
@Jaime Dunaway:
What do you mean “you people”?
lol but really if you don’t stop someone might get offended because you are taking away their normalcy by adding a pre-fix to describe them
Drake
Since the trans world has made “tranny” a major no-no (although they used to use it themselves), can those of us who are called “cis” and “cisgender” please reject that term?
Cam
@Daniel Villarreal: said “And no, if he said that about me, I wouldn’t consider it racist in the least. ”
________________________
Funny, for somebody so unconcerned in that area, you sure toss race around a lot. I’m sorry but saying that somebody shouldn’t do or say something BECAUSE of their race, makes you a racist.
Him saying that he feels insulted by that word is invalid? Just because you SAY something doesn’t make it true. WHY is it invalid? If an African American says that THEY are insulted by the term “Colored” even though that was an official designation of the govt. and not an epithet hurled from car windows at them who are YOU to tell them that it is invalid of them to feel that way?
You have used race multiple times in a non-racial post as an excuse for why somebody shouldn’t be allowed an opinion. Then just made comments several times saying “I’m not going to discuss that”
Well your not wanting to discuss it is irrelevant. Your words and behavior are textbook racism. You STILL haven’t answered my question about which race and genders get more say than others. If Aravosis is to be ignored BECAUSE he is white then I asked you to provide us with a breakdown of who IS to be listened to. You ignored that comment, and yet continued to make comments about Arravosis being “White”
What is scary is that rather than acknowledging that using race as a reason to invalidate somebody’s comments you are trying to deflect ANY language that would make you have to face your own obvious racial bias.
Wh1t
@Drake:
Cis isn’t derogatory though. And what word to you suppose we use then? “Normal”? “Not-trans”?
And with everyone here going “I identify as _just_ male” well are you insinuating that your gender is “normal” and thus you shouldn’t identify as cis?
Example:
“I’m a cis, white, heterosexual male. But I only identify as male. It’s derogatory to call me straight, cis, or white because I only identify as male.”
That’s the argument that’s being made (except it’s specific to the gender [cis vs. trans] aspect).
Queer Supremacist
Bottom line: We get to choose what we call ourselves, and you’re going to call us that and like it.
Cam
Oh, and to the author of this article who says that people shouldn’t be able to decide if a term is insulting, then does he also think that people should ignore transgendered people who do not want to be called “Trannies”?
If that group is to be listened to when they say that a term is derogatory which they should be, then you can’t say that somebody else can’t do the same thing. Or is it just because he is “White” which you keep attacking him for, that he shouldn’t be listened to?
Daniel Villarreal
@Cam: As for your hierachy of which race and genders get more say that others: in America white gay men have more political power and media visibility than trans people. Am I wrong about that? How many white gay men have you seen on TV news? I bet you can count them on two hands. How many trans people have you seen? I’ll be astonished if you can name more than five without researching.
So who should have more say, especially when it comes to use of the word “cisgender”? Well, I obviously think a transwoman would be a good place to start, hence my inclusion of Zinnia Jones’ video. She and I obviously thought Avarosis’ comment worthy of sharing and conversation, no matter our opinions of what he said. This forum is not mine alone and we wanted other viewpoints than just his.
White privilege exists. Gay privilege exists. Male privilege exists. If a white gay man says, “I don’t like what trans people call me,” when trans issues and trans bias disproportionately have a negative affect trans women and people of color, then one should view it as suspect and (in my opinion), troubling.
While race, gender and sexual identity alone do not invalidate a person’s feelings or points of view, John did not make his case and I feel his myopia as a person of privilege informs his viewpoint. We certainly have a right to question it.
Ian
So this whole thread is really interesting to me for the following reason: I actually agree with almost everything said in the video (above) and disagree with Aravosis for the most part. I also completely support and honor trans people as human beings and as fellow oppressed people. As a gay lawyer, I represent numerous LGBT clients in seeking justice and self-determination. Yet…. because I happen to be 1) white, 2) male, and 3) gay, I am somehow the enemy of trans people. (according to some) I want to be an ally and will continue to be an ally despite the all to frequent broad generalizations about the evil-gay-white-male. We are better off working together against the powers that be seeking to oppress us all.
timncguy
@Wh1t: Negro isn’t a derogatory term either. But, I dare say you don’t use it to describe African Americans. Gay isn’t derogatory. But, I bet you don’t refer to lesbians as gay. Homosexual (shortened to homo) is a proper clinical term in the same way that people claim cisgender (shortened to cis) are. But, I bet you don’t call people homos and expect them to like it.
I’m not even sure that I buy the argument that cisgender is a clinical term. If you look up its origin what you will find is that the term was made up by people in the trans community and it has since worked its way into clinical discussions. It was not the other way around as is being suggested here.
Drake
@Wh1t:
“Cis” sounds like “sissy” and I do not identify with either word regardless of the definition. As for “tranny” it only recently became derogatory when some trans political correctness folks decreed it so. I have been to numerous LGBT gatherings over the years in which trans persons used the term in speeches with no hysteria. i will accept that people have been taught that it is supposed to be derogatory, so I do not use it. However, “cis” is a word made up by the trans community for non-trans folks, and it is a word I personally do not like.
Caliban
““Cis-” is Latin for “On the same side of,” it’s the opposite of “Trans-” meaning “on the opposite side of.” It’s used to denote the differences between trans-peoples and cis-peoples.”
Thanks for that. I was curious about the origin of the term.
The first several times I saw “cis-gendered” used I thought “WTF? Do we really need a word to designate people whose gender identity matches their chromosome make-up?”
But most of the time it’s used neutrally and carries no positive or negative connotation and when discussing gender identity issues there needed to be a short-hand way of indicating gender congruent(?) persons. Some trans activists DO use it in a sneeringly critical way but that’s mainly a matter of tone, not the word itself.
I’ll admit it, I don’t really “get” the transgender thing. But I learned a long time ago that my “getting” something isn’t required for it to be real. I also don’t get the appeal of NASCAR, religious fundamentalism, rabid sports fans, or Reality TV. Trans identity is not my life experience so trying to understand it intellectually and believing that people have the right to define themselves is the best I can offer. Clearly gender isn’t as cut and dried as we’re usually taught. Just look at Castor Semaya, the female runner who was “gender tested” and it turned out she had XY chromosomes but Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome so was born with “female” genitalia. Before those tests even SHE didn’t know that, technically, she was “male.”
timncguy
from Wikipedia
“The word cisgender has been used on the internet since at least 1994, when it appeared in the alt.transgendered Usenet group in a post by Dana Leland Defosse.[4] Defosse does not define the term and seems to assume that readers are already familiar with it. It may also have been independently coined a year later: Donna Lynn Matthews, the charter maintainer of the alt.support.crossdressing usenet group, attributed the word to Carl Buijs, a transsexual man from the Netherlands, claiming that Buijs coined the word in 1995.[5] In April 1996, Buijs said in a Usenet posting, “As for the origin, I just made it up. I just kept running into the problem of what to call non-trans people in various discussions, and one day it just hit me: non-trans equals cis. Therefore, cisgendered.”[6]”
Wh1t
Completely off topic comment:
@Ian:
Oh god, I’m sorry I can’t help but laugh a bit due to the circumstances with @Mav’s comment about the use of the word lawyer: and you being a cis, straight, white male.
*ahem*
Moving on…
Wh1t
@Wh1t:
Bah, I’m sorry. I got off-track talking a friend and mis-typed “straight” instead of gay, my apologies.
“Oh god, I’m sorry I can’t help but laugh a bit due to the circumstances with @Mav’s comment about the use of the word lawyer: and you being a cis, gay*, white male.”
Daniel Villarreal
@Ian: @Cam: I will accede however that by calling Aravosis’ race, sexuality and gender “troubling” has needlessly inserted identity politics into a conversation primarily about semantics. Whether the privilege of Aravosis’ identity makes him a poor arbiter is an entirely separate argument that I would have done better to address in a separate well-supported article rather than as a passing comment that has diverted attention from the primary issue at hand.
Ian
@Wh1t: 🙂 Yeah, it wasn’t lost on me. Then again, I’ve dealt with lawyer jokes for years. I always say that no one likes lawyers until it’s 3AM and their son or daughter just got busted and needs to make bail. Then they love us. 🙂
LazyJay
@NelsonG: Oh good grief. By that logic you could argue “straight” is an insult when used by gays of non-homosexual people.
@JAW There is no reason for you to be offended by the term ‘cis’ male/female. It is *not* the equivalent of “tranny”, which I also find distasteful unless spoken with a loving tongue. The cis equivalent of “tranny” would be “cissy”.
If you identify with the gender that matches your original plumbing, then lucky you. For those of us who don’t, to whatever degree, then at least grant us the right to exist, to describe ourselves and what differentiates us from the mass-marketed male/female binary.
I look forward to the day when the terms ‘trans’ and ‘cis’ will no longer be necessary. In the meantime, I’m going to get drunk in despair at humanity’s fear of the unknown and misunderstood.
Henry
I don’t think it’s entered Aravosis’ mind to take advantage of his race or his sex (I can’t see him possibly taking advantage of his sexuality in this culture even if he wanted to), so that comment about his opinions being troubling is strange and unfair, Daniel.
Henry
If you want to criticize whiteness, take a stab at what a caricature mtf transsexuals become when they discuss words they “find distasteful.” They can afford to discuss it in the tone of voice of someone who has enormous privilege. Their comments smack of white supremacy, only this time by women and not by men, and this is only because they realize that male power has less and less effective force in American life. They’re just playing the game more effectively than men, these days, could ever do.
NelsonG
@Will: Oh, please Will. If the transgenders were really interested in obtaining their equality, they’d be out there fighting alongside the rest of the LGB community instead of hiding behind their PC’s browbeating LGB activists, bloggers and the HRC. I don’t know about you and where you live, but here in NYC where earlier this year some of us took to the street to counterprotest Ruben Diaz and NOM, the transgender community was no where to be found. As for Aravosis, the last two years he has demonstrated he is not only opposed to full equality, he’s anti-Obama too.
Get off the soapbox, man. People are seeing thru you too.
@Wh1t:
Apparently you are the exception for the rule. Congratulations. But just because you havent used cis to disparage LGB’s, it doesn’t mean others haven’t. And that’s the argument that’s being had; Well, it was earlier.
Cam
@Daniel Villarreal:said..
“@Ian: @Cam: I will accede however that by calling Aravosis’ race, sexuality and gender “troubling” has needlessly inserted identity politics into a conversation primarily about semantics. Whether the privilege of Aravosis’ identity makes him a poor arbiter is an entirely separate argument that I would have done better to address in a separate well-supported article rather than as a passing comment that has diverted attention from the primary issue at hand.”
________________
While I feel your earlier statements amounting to an opinion that some people’s opinions are more or less valid based on their race is a dangerous and racist argument because a person’s speech is either true or false, invalid or valid independent of their race.
HOWEVER, I liked your post here and I appreciate that you took the time to hear the statements and respond to them in a way that while not agreeing with them acknowledged the difference in beliefs.
JAW
@Wh1t: #47
I understand that tranny is a hurtful word for many people. The reason that I used it was to show how I feel when I see the word cis used.
You have dismissed a haf a dozen people on here who find the term cis male (or is it cismale?) and cis female (or is it cisfemale). Like I really give a crap which it is
Why is it that Trans activists can use words, and be dismissive when they are told they are seen as slurs, hurtful, demeaning?
I wonder how Michelle Bachmann or Rick Santorum will react when they find out that the Trans Activists have labeed them as cismael or cis female
It is time that Trans Activists start showing all others some respect too… perhaps you will get more respect in return.
Wh1t
@JAW:
These aren’t my words, but they’re a great way to describe it:
“I think the term has value because it describes people. It allows for a portion of the population to be named. Instead of being just being transgender, gender queer, trans, and all of the rest being an unnamed mass which a large portion of the population believe is “normal” than we are giving descriptive terms which describe the condition of ones gender. It allows for us to control the dialog on gender issues where those who are gender conforming are not just considered the normal ones and everything else is different it creates a spectrum which people are a part of with out one of them being normalized. So while a new word could be found I think until that word is developed cisgender could and should still be used just because it allows us to talk not in a since of a normal or other but in a multifaceted categorical view point. Sorry rambling right now I hope I was able to get my point across.”
Well, I ask the same question to you that I did to Drake: What do you argue that we use in place of “cis-“?
P.S.And who cares about Bachmann or Santorum (Unfortunately, a lot of people care [republicans].)? They’re inept anyways.
P.P.S. I believe it’s cis-male/cis-female or cismale/cisfemale, no space in between though.
JAW
@Wh1t: #76
Let me get this correct…
If I use a word that you find offensive… I should stop
But if you use a word that I find offensive… oh well You are Trans so we have to just deal with it???
LOL… even you as a trans activist do not know the proper spelling…. THAT IS TOOOOO FUNNY as someone posted above #65.. some Trans person just made it up.. LMFAO
As for having Michelle and Rick find out… They will Rally the far right of the country around them to attack the Trans people.
Wh1t
@JAW:
So let me get this straight, you don’t even say anything about the ‘real’ part of my post and instead attack it because there’s variance in spelling. Oh yea, spelling “armour” instead of “armor” or “programme” instead of “program” debunks an entire argument. Can that also mean your argument is invalid due to your poor grammar?
“But if you use a word that I find offensive… oh well You are Trans so we have to just deal with it???”
Except “cis-” doesn’t have the negative connotations (and history) associated with it that “tranny” does. To be honest, it’s starting to think that you’re just a troll and up-in-arms about “cis-” because you feel the need to be up-in-arms about something.
“As for having Michelle and Rick find out… They will Rally the far right of the country around them to attack the Trans people.”
That almost sounds like a threat…
P.S. I love your terrible argumentative skills.
Will
@NelsonG:
Right Nelson cause Lord knows I’m Gay Inc. Right?
I’m not defending Avarois because I don’t think its a slur. I think cis is unnecessary. As is all the wasted words and energy over it.
But then again thats just my opinion.
I mean what do I know. I’m a just a HOMO and damn proud of it.
JAW
@Wh1t:
I did respond. The person that wrote the “real part of your post is Trans
My point was for me, as well as others on here, and in the world, having our identity changed has negative connotations. Sorry that you do not see that… but it does.
When I see cis used with male and/or female, I would bet, I feel as upset at seeing that word, as you do when you see the word tranny. I do not understand why you get to decide what I see/feel as negative. I understand that tranny is negative, the only reason that I used it to make the point that when you use cis, I feel the same as you when I use Tranny… I normally do not use it and indeed have told others that use it to stop.
As for the history of the word… it was made up by a trans activist in 1994.. that does not seem to have much history.
I mentioned Michelle and Rick not as any kind of threat… but as a point, that the far right is always looking for new ways to attack all of us.
Mav
Since I doubt very highly that anyone will hear “Cisgender!” before being murdered in a vicious hate crime, I think getting all butthurt about its usage as a “slur” is sort of stupid.
As for the “You don’t get to label me!” argument, how do you propose *stopping* people from calling a spade a spade? Cisgender simply means NOT transgender. Saying it is equivalent to derogatory slang is pretty ridiculous. You can be cisgender and straight, or cisgender and gay. You can be transgender and straight, or transgender and gay. Saying you are cisgender does not erase your identity as a gay man (or whatever).
I can’t help but think of Christians who get offended at the use of “Happy Holidays!” (or non-Christians getting miffed at hearing “Merry Christmas!”).
This strikes me as an argument of that magnitude and social retardation.
Wait, are we still allowed to say things are retarded?
Oh whatever, I don’t care. This argument is pretty retarded.
Wh1t
@JAW:
“I did respond. The person that wrote the “real part of your post is Trans”
No, actually, he’s not. He identifies as a queer male. He’s also cisgendered.
And actually, I’m not changing your identity by describing you with the description “cis-“. It’s still your identity, it’s still the same exact thing; I’m just noting that you’re cisgendered and I’m transgendered. In my opinion, there should be a noted difference as I don’t have the ability to know what it’s like to be cis, nor do you have the ability to know what it’s like to be trans.
It’s the same way as describing you with your hair colour. “Oh he’s a brown-haired gay guy [As far as I know you’re male and gay, correct?]” Does that change your being? No, it denotes a difference from a blonde-haired gay guy.
“Cis-” literally has the same neutral weight as describing a person with their hair colour. You’re not jumping on them as “oh they’re brown-haired, so they’re smart.” or anything of the sort.
Nelson G
@Will: I didn’t say or write you were part of gayinc. On the other hand, I believe you do kowtow to them…
The fact is, QUEERTY posted a video from someone who says cisgender is not a slur, and they used that to attack John Aravosis, a guy who’s not exactly a paragon of virtue when it comes to ethics and activism and who just so happens to be right on this one.
Unlike you, I’m not going to hide behind the pride flag and play deaf, dumb, and blind to this. And guess what? Some of us can actually multitask, fighting for equality while calling out QUEERTY contributors and YouTube bloggers.
JAW
@Wh1t:
So… if the Trans activists can make up a word, that some of those it is intended for hate and find it hurtful, Then you would not have a issue with cisgender (your word not mine) can come up with words that you would find hurtful and you hate.
Perhaps the non trans males and females would choose something like. I am 100% Male… or as Lady Gaga’s song says. I am a “Born This way Male? Since I just thought them up, those make more sense to me.
Cis has no history… just an activist thought it up. There is no science behind it. The international community of Doctors of Human sexuality did not coin it… just one Trans activist did.
I think that I will settle for the word that has been used for thousands of years… male and female, nothing more or less
blatherer
Am getting totally SICK AND TIRED of attacks on gay people by the trans crowd. If you want to be heterosexual, that is your right, but do not attack gay MEN AND WOMEN for their long history of struggle to be who they are.
gregor
you fags will argue over anything
silnus
gay people bitching about the -cis label is the same thing as straight people bitching about that label
GreatGatsby2011
C@JAW: Actually cisgender is derived from cissexual which was first seen in an article published by Dr. Volkmar Sigusch in 1991. I’m assuming it was updated to cisgender when transsexual was updated to transgender (or perhaps people were just tired of sound like they were stuttering). So to say there’s no science behind the term cisgender is inaccurate.
To everybody else who is referring to cisgender as a “derogatory term”. When I’m having an argument with a woman and she says, “You don’t understand, you’re just a MAN!” does that make the word man a derogatory term? No, it doesn’t. Any word can be spoken with disdain and be turned into a “bad word” in the context of that situation, but that doesn’t transform the word itself into a derogatory term in all situations thenceforth.
That said, everyone is more than welcome to be offended by the perfectly politically correct term. People do it all the time.
amo
Of course cis is used as a slur. Gay is used as a slur. Women is used as a slur. Does Aravosis want to get rid of the word gay?
This reminds me of that Louie CK sketch where he’s talking about how great it is (for him) that there’s no word you can use to belittle a white guy’s whiteness. I feel like Aravosis needs to get over that that sort of thing is a privilege, not “normal”.
I’m a huge cissy and I find cisgender a really useful word. The more often we use it in neutral/ positive contexts, the more we drown out anti-cis sentiment 🙂
missanthrope
Arvosis has only looked out for the interests of white, cis and middle calls queers, he isn’t really interested in the welfare of anyone else.
JAW
@GreatGatsby2011:
Thanks for the info on the origin of the word.. I figured that one person came up with it
I identify as male.. you can identify any way you want trans male, transgender. whatever floats your boat
For me cisgender, cismale, cis female, cis_____ (fill in the blank) is not politically correct
To me.. if the trans activists need me to rename by gender, I chose one of these Born Male or 100% Male… at least people will understand
The Trans Activists keep changing things to suit themselves
Transsexual.. is now Trans gender
Transvestites are now cross dressers (Those folks are not happy that u changed their name)
male/females are now cis
androgyny is now Queer… or is it intersexed or??
Sorry if I have left anyone out or have not kept up with all of the changes some people consider themselves to now be.
I always was, I am, and I always will be MALE. the Trans activists can change who they are daily for all I care. just don’t screw around with who the rest of us are
Peter
@Jim Hlavac: I’m sorry but no, in terms of visibility and press coverage, trans is barely scraping the bottom of the barrel compared to the visibility we have as gay men. A huge amount of tv shows have gay or lesbian characters, simply check afterelton and afterellen for the huge amount of shows they recap because of gay and lesbian content. But shows with transgender characters? The only one I can think of is Degrassi High: The next generation, who had a short story arc about the F2M transgender character…. Any others? Sorry, nope, please enlighten me? Gay marriage, Gay rights, etc, have been covered a LOT more than Trans, and this is tragic, because both groups deserve equal ‘spotlight’ so to speak.
MOST people no longer have that archaic idea that gay men are gender confused, thats an artifact of the 60’s and 70’s when all gay men were thought to be fairies.
David Ehrenstein
He’s right. It’s a slur.
Caliban
I don’t have a problem with the word. It actually DOES have a purpose, not unlike “straight or “gay.” When you’re discussing gender identity what word would you suggest using to denote men or women who aren’t transgender? “Normal”? “Regular”? You’d flip if someone referred to normal men in the context of straight vs gay. Believe me, I’ve read and heard some pretty sneery-ass comments by TGs I didn’t like but the problem was their tone and attitude, not the word cis-gender.
o
@Henry: It’s like you’re saying white woman have a lot of power in American society! How dare you? I’ll have you know that white women have no power at all. I ache for the white women who deal with serious food disorders and nervous disorders – there are a lot of nervous white women. I don’t think white men are cowed by white women, and I don’t think white women have an advantage over black men either – that’s absurd.
JAW
@Caliban:
That is simple. I am male and as Trans people prefer to be called… they are Transmale or Trans Male (same for the Females among us)
laughriotgirl
I’m a woman who dates men. I appreciate it if every single gay man and lesbian stops calling me Heterosexual (Hetero) (Het) and Straight. I didn’t get a vote in it and I feel oppressed like you just called me a “fag”. Until you homosexual men and women stop defining me as something “other” I will refuse to work with your homosexual gay homo whatever movement. I’ve hear gay men sling “Hetero” and “Straight girl” around like a vicious attack and didn’t like it.
There.. seems totally reasonable right??
WillBFair
So the trans community demand we use only words for them that they approve, then invent a term for us without asking us. Fine. Let it be.
But there are other words that appear regularly on Bilerico that are not so nice: priviliged, white, male, transphobe, not to mention false stories like the one about Dan S that make gay men look like trash.
I used to be fond of the trans community. No more, after listening to them for months spit contempt at me. They remind me of other disfunctional queer groups: barebackers, mainstream queers who’ve made excuses for the spread of hiv for thirty years, religion phobes at jmg, etc. They all have emotional issues and try to draw others into their circular arguments. It’s too boring.
GreatGatsby2011
@JAW: Again, not a word created by transgender activists. Created by scientists/physicians. Transgender activists are merely spreading the correct scientific term.
I think the idea that I’m failing to express is that you aren’t a cismale ALL the time. The gender with the penis is still male and the gender with the vagina is still female. You are only a cismale when being actively compared to a transgender individual. Here’s an example: If I were introduce my friend I would say “This is my friend, Jenn.” If I were at a party and Jenn were surrounded by a group of transgender individuals and another friend asked me “Which one is Jenn?” I would respond “The cisfemale in the purple shirt.”
Also, you haven’t been “just a male” (when being actively compared to a transgender individual) since transsexuality/transgenderism were accepted by the medical/psychological community. Previously, when a cisgender individual was compared to a transgender individual, they were labeled “gender-normative male” or “gender-normative female”. I’m sure we can all agree that “gender-normative” is extremely offensive to a transgender individual as it implies that being transgender is ABnormal. I, as a gay man, certainly would not want to be called homosexual while a heterosexual is called “sexually-normative”. It would offend me.
Finally, the prefixes cis- and trans- have nothing to do with the physical gender. Like I said, physically penis=male, vagina=female. Cis- and trans- simply refer to how a person mentally identifies with his/her physical gender. Cis- means your mental and physical gender align, trans- means they do not. That is why a person is referred to as a pre-op or post-op transgender individual, regardless of what genitalia they currently have they are still transgender because the gender they were born into does not align with the gender they identify with. That said, it would be silly to refer to yourself as a cismale when not comparing yourself to a transgender individual. That’s like me introducing my friend as “my white friend, Jenn” when her ethnicity is not being compared to anyone else’s.
So, in conclusion, cis- does not change who you are and is only applicable when being compared to transgender individuals. You can continue to be offended, as is your right, I’m just trying to explain why I believe there is no reason to be offended. No harm meant.
PS: Intersex is actually when a person is born with genitals that are not easily definded as male or female (most often an extended clitoris), previously know as hermaphrodites, and has nothing to do with androgyny at all.
Poor Lurker
As far as I can tell Aravosis never used the word “privilege” except in quotes, to respond to such claims made against him. You know for all the stories I’ve heard about transgender people who were ostracized and excluded by the feminist community, it’s ironic that so many have adopted their ad hominems and logical fallacies: namely, “He has privilege so he cannot possibly know enough about the world to make a statement that contests with my statement, and I don’t need to tell you why he’s wrong because all we without privilege know anyway and all they with privilege can never understand.”
I believe in a privilege that holds back the ostracized and the poor — but all the people who speak like you, Villarreal, make it very difficult to see the concept as anything more than a crude dismissal of any statement, made from one privileged human to another privileged human.
And for the record, no I don’t know anything else about you, or even Aravosis, and yes I am writing this only because I’m so sick of seeing people in the LGBT community quarrel over who’s the biggest “phobe.”
timncguy
@GreatGatsby2011: Please check the comment at #65. Per the origin as documented in Wikipedia, the term transgender was created by a transgender man, not by a scientist. The scientific community has adopted use of the term since it was coined in the trans community.
timncguy
@GreatGatsby2011: oops… the previous comment should read the term cisgender was created by a transgender man, not a scientist….
timncguy
@GreatGatsby2011: The term gender-normative does not imply that transgender is abnormal. For that to be the case, the term would have to be gender-normal. The opposite of normative is not abnormal.
GreatGatsby2011
@timncguy: I’m sorry for the confusion. In post #88 I explained how it seemed logical to me that cisgender stems somehow from cisexual which was first seen in an article written by a physician. I guess he could have gotten the word from a transgender person, but I don’t know enough about the subject to know.
Also, the definition of normative is establishing a norm. Which I take to mean, if you aren’t like this you aren’t the norm. I could be wrong, but to me, that’s a long way to say abnormal. But, ignoring semantics, you don’t think there would be an outcry from the homosexual community if heterosexuals were to be reclassified as sexually-normative? That seems unlikely to me.
And I can’t stress enough, these are my beliefs, and I understand yours may differ. And that’s good. Because if everyone believed the same thing then we wouldn’t have interesting discourse. And that’s no fun.
Pete
The word that I dislike is “Queer”. That is usually what thugs shouted when a gang would be gay-bashing you, kicking you in the stomach. Although some gays refer to themselves as “Queer”, I think that most straights mean it as an insult. And how did “tranny” become a slur? For many years, transgender persons used the word at rallies, demonstrations, etc that included gays and lesbians. There was an interview in a lo0cal gay newspaper last year in which a young transman referred to his “tranny” friend. What happened to make “tranny” a capital ofense now?
Dan
Clearly we should refer to people as boners and gashes so people stop seeing each other’s humanity completely. There’d be boner-loving boners, gash-loving boners, gash-loving gashes, etc. Let’s see how many people can keep a serious face while describing themselves and others that way in polite conversations and in the media. {someone addressing the UN} “Can’t all boners and gashes just get along on this planet and stop violating human rights.”
JAW
@timncguy:
You are correct that cis “gender” was coined by a Trans activist… but cis sexual goes back to the good Dr that GG mentioned… if you look him up on wikipedia you will see that is correct.
@GreatGatsby2011:
The word was coined by One Doctor… not by an entire community.
Since one person coined the word or guess the prefix cis.. I am now going to make 100% male and 100% female the preferred Politically Correct way of introducing those of us that are not Trans.
so That if I were at that party with you.. I would expect you to introduce me and all other 100% males and females with the NEW Politically Correct Term
ALSO.. Thanks for the update on Intersexed… I knew that You folks had changed that
can you help me with what name you all have come up with for androgyny I want to make sure I am being PC
JAW
@GreatGatsby2011:
Oh… One more thing… If I brought you to that party.. I would introduce you to MY friends as Gatsby (or what ever name you go by) I find no Reason whatsoever to bring up the fact that you are Trans… It is nobody’s business whether you are trans or 100%.
Ken S
Offensive? Come on. Cisgender means a male who just identifies as male in an uncomplicated way, or a female who just identifies as female in an uncomplicated way, as opposed to transgendered. How is it derogatory or slanderous to have a word for that, that trans people can use to refer to non-trans people without using ‘normative’ language that takes the experience of not-being-trans for granted.
For comparison it would be like Caucasians using some ethnic identifier for everyone else but objecting to everyone else having one for us, “because there doesn’t need to be a term for us, we’re just- you know- the normal people.” It would be supremely arrogant.
timncguy
@JAW: yes, I understand that the term cissexual was coined by a doctor. But, we aren’t talking about the term cissexual here, so that’s irrelevant.
missanthrope
From my understanding cisgender was coined on trans usenet groups in the 1990s. Julia Serano was the first to introduce cissexual (that I’ve heard of) in her book, Whipping Girl.
timncguy
@Ken S:Well, why does it seem that we are willing to call everyone else by what they want to be called except in this case we insist on using the term cisgender even when told it isn’t appreciated?
There is nothing derogatory about Negro. It’s a correct clinical term. But, we don’t use the term because we were told it wasn’t appreciated. There’s nothing derogatory about the term gay, but lesbians decided they didn’t want to be called gay anymore and we complied. There is nothing derogatory about the term homosexual. But, we decided we prefer the term gay instead. So, there is a “G” in LGBT not an “H” for homosexual. In all these cases a non derogatory technically correct term has been put aside and been replaced with a term that was preferred by those being referred to by the original, technically correct, non derogatory term. But, for some unexplained reason, in this case people refuse to honor a request to refer to someone in the manner that person prefers. Instead they insist on using a term that makes them feel comfortable no matter how the target of that name feels about it.
It’s like you are saying that I should be able to force lesbians to accept being called gay instead of lesbian because it makes me feel bad as a gay man for gay women to reject the term gay. Because that is what it sounds like when the explanation is that we must accept being called cisgender because if we prefer to be called non-trans or gender-normative it makes transgender people feel bad about themselves.
You and others may make the claim that cisgender is not a slur. But, the only times I have ever seen the term used was by transgendered individuals in blog posts when they were denigrating non-trans individuals. So, it is often used as a slur by those who are now making the claim that nothing offensive should be found in its use.
Desiree R.
The terms “cissexual” and “cisgender” (“cis” being a convenient combined shorthand for both of them) are critical importance to social justice dialogues because they change a “normal / abnormal” comparison to an “A / B ” comparison. They are directly analogous to “white” or “heterosexual” in providing a neutral, factual term for the majority group. Without terms of this kind, we have no choice to use “X / not X” comparisons which center the majority group as default / normal and cast the minority group as a deviation from this norm. There is a huge difference between choosing to embrace rejection of social norms and being non-consensually defined as abnormal; the former is done by people who self-identify with terms such as “queer”, whereas the latter inevitably happens when terms such as “white”, “heterosexual”, “cissexual”, and “cisgender” are forbidden.
Those who criticize “cis” on the basis that it is not an identity term which they have chosen for themselves are overlooking the fact that that “white” and “heterosexual” are not identity terms either. Cis people are a privileged group just like whites and heterosexuals are, and privileged groups usually do not have identity terms for themselves because they instead think of themselves as “normal”. This does not change when an individual is privileged in some ways and oppressed in other ways; while different forms of privilege do intersect with each other, being oppressed in one way does not erase being privileged in other ways. The idea that an individual who is a member of a major oppressed group can by definition never hold privilege over anyone else was the great ideological failure of the second-wave feminist movement, and it bothers me intensely to see huge swaths of the LGBT movement following the same busted path.
Skep
I will continue to support transgender equality, and I will continue to refuse having “cisgender” shoved down my throat, especially given how it is so frequently used as invective.
L-train
I think calling everybody else cisgender is kind of like how those dirty white Jews, the ones who would have collaborated with Hitler if they were alive during his reign of terror, call Gentiles goyim. You know the kind I mean.
Jeff
I was going to say how many Transpeople do use ‘cisgender’ as a slur against non-Trans people but then I saw how this is the douchebag who hates Trans people. To me ‘cisgender’ as a slur is like calling a hetero a ‘breeder’ and straight people just laugh off ‘breeder’ as a slur.
Amy Dentata
“Cisgender” is a terrible slur, just like “white” or “straight”. Oh, how offensive and rude those words are!
If you have a problem being called “cisgender”, the real problem is you don’t like being placed on an even level with trans people. You don’t like losing the label of “normal”. You want to keep the superiority of your unmarked class. Well sorry, you don’t get to stay an unmarked class.
Don’t like it? Then stop discriminating against trans people, stop othering us, stop violently attacking us and murdering us. And stop distinguishing yourself from us in law, letter, language, and belief. Because as long as you keep us a separate category, there shall always be a name for your own.
John
@Desiree R.:
You know what I read in all that?
“Blah Blah Blah You’re a privileged gay man! You could know nothing about the complexities of conforming within society! You’ve never been referred to as not normal! You are described as normal because your are part of mainstream society!”
It saddens me to see people imply that somehow Gay people haven’t had to struggle their whole live as well. It pains me to see the Transgender community, who could be some of the greatest allies in the movement for equality, attack the Gay and Lesbian community because we “Just couldn’t understand.”
Gay people aren’t privileged in society, that idea is absolutely absurd, so get of your high horse and face the reality that Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender people have a way to go before any of us get “privilege”. We face a lot of the same discrimination and social rejection you do. We face a lot of the harassment and name calling, the attacks, the mental anxiety and wear. We simply ask not to have to suffer name calling at the hands of what many of us consider an ally.
Transgender people, of all people, should understand that.
Neil Pearl Jam
@Amy Dentata your thought process shows paranoid features. Perhaps you should voice these thoughts to people you know in real life so they can escort you to the nearest mental hospital.
Amy Dentata
@John: Cisgender people of any sexual orientation are privileged over trans people, in that they are cis. Just like white gay people are privileged over gay people of color. These are separate axes of oppression. Membership in one axis doesn’t guarantee solidarity or understanding of another; one only need look at the rampant racism in the (white) gay community to know that. Cis gay and lesbian people constantly attack, belittle, and exclude trans people. It is a widespread problem and this man is a perfect example of how this happens.
John
@Amy Dentata:
This is a patently false lie, even mainstream society supports you more.
“So the pretty darn surprising news out this week, courtesy of the Public Religion Research Institute, is:
89% percent of Americans (including strong majorities of all religious and partisan groups) think transgender people deserve the same rights and protections as other Americans.
75% of Americans agree that Congress should pass laws to protect transgender people from job discrimination.
Approximately two-thirds of Americans not only know what the term “transgender “means, they’re well informed about transgender people and issues.
Three out of four Americans think Congress should pass employment nondiscrimination laws that protect transgender people.”
http://publicreligion.org/newsroom/2011/11/news-release-strong-majorities-favor-rights-and-legal-protections-for-transgender-people/
John
@Amy Dentata:
Also, you’re generalizing with saying there is rampant racism within the white gay community. As well with every other accusation you make without evidence and statistics. But
keep on kicking and screaming, someone might believe you some day.
scott
LOVE this. I’m not confused by my sexuality, and I resent being lumped into a group which some people look to Chaz Bono to define. I’m glad he/she has found his/her identity, but it isn’t my issue, and I resent being lumped in with it.
JAW
@Amy Dentata: #120
That is the craziest thing I have ever read.. G&L people are Not privileged anymore then all Trans people are Not privileged
If you feel excluded it could be due to your attitude.
I have heard that there are thousands of pre-op people who do not have the money for the operations or for others they do not have the money for the meds.. G&L’s have been to many Benefits, have contributed to health clinics that serve all GLBT people. Many of our bars and other business’s host benefits. Community Centers supported by G&L people also are used by Trans people.
So stop feeling sorry for yourself, go see a therapist and stop disparaging G&L’s, many of us do help… directly and indirectly.
sabatghzl1098
The problem people have with the word “abnormal” is absurd!
Of course being “transgendered” is abnormal! 97% of people (an NTAC estimate) are not transgendered.
Of course being “homosexual” is abnormal! 90% of people (there is so much variation in the estimates, but I hear “10% is gay” more than anything else) are straight.
The problem some trans or gay people have with being called “abnormal” is really a problem they have with being trans or gay in the first place.
Autumn Sandeen
@NelsonG: I don’t know what NelsonG is talking about. I rarely use the terms cissexual and cisgender, and am careful to use the terms as neutrally as possible. I very much understand that cissexual, cisgender, and cis are frequently weaponized against lesbian and gay people through use of adjectives and other descriptors paired with the term. I’m always looking for allies — including intra-LGBT community allies — to work on trans civil rights issues, and I’ve found use of cis terms to not be helpful in that goal.
I avoid community terms I have to explain each time I use those terms, and cis — even if it weren’t a term I saw as potentially one that alienates my potential allies, is problematic because it’s so infrequently used in the brick-and-mortar world that the term needs frequent explanation. In other words, the term is jargon. I specifically don’t use the term cis itself, except when quoting others, because the term is such a jargonized term — the term’s use is pretty much limited to use within online transgender and LGBT webspace.
Attributing to me the weaponizing of the term cis to attack gay men is without merit. I don’t get what NelsonG is talking about — I’d sure appreciate it if he cited some examples of me using the term “to demonize gay men” so I could know that he’s talking about.
David Ehrenstein
@GreatGatsby2011: They’re spreading it as a slur. It’s the reason why I find it impossible to post at Pam Spauldings anymore.
Laughriotgirl
GAY has NOTHING to do with being CIS! It really seems like there is a huge amount of confusion here. There are cis non-gay people as well as gay people. My mother, who is non-gay is cis, my neighbor who is also cis is gay. I am non-gay and trans, my friend is gay and a trans man. See, gay does not exclude anything else that notes something about a person – same with cis. They can all exist in some combinations within every person.
I am a non-gay woman. I have some social privileges over lesbians in some situations. A cis lesbian is likely has access some privileges I do not. See how that plays out?
Simon
I’m a gay white male and i dont buy into queer theory which goes counter to Nature. There is actually such a thing as “natural” you know. Being gay is natural. I dont know about transsexuality. A condition which requires heavy hormone and surgical treatment for people to accept their own bodies is not natural or normal. Im sorry mexicans and everybody else if it takes a gay white male to tell you that but please, lets keep both feet on the ground. Suffering from a split between sex identity and gender is not normal but it doesnt mean that those in that position should be stripped of humanity or have no rights. They should be accepted as equal members of society. There is however great need to recognise the fundamental and natural basis of sex which is rooted deep in our subconsciousness. Any consciouss attempts to deny sex identity from queer theory, deconstructivism etc will violate human nature and lead to rootless unhappy individuals. There is no need for cisgender term any more than for unhandicapped, unblind etc.
I agree gay people have nothing in common with transsexuals and I agree it confuses heterosexuals as to what it means to be gay
Jigae
There are three threads about this going on at the Slog right now. Lots of straight and gay people are not thrilled with the term cis, nor the way in which it’s been used with/against them. While trans activists have a right to choose whatever term they want for the non-trans, there’s empirical evidence that more than a few people find it offensive. Whether they’re “right” or “wrong” this is not an uncommon feeling.
CBRad
@Simon: I agree with you there. I don’t know if it’s normal or not, but it’s not for me to say how others should live their lives. So I’ll support all the basic rights of transgendered individuals, but I don’t know why some insist on lumping it together with the gay and lesbian issues. (Though I also, generally, despise that Aravosis character and his silly clique of supporters).
Dave
@Daniel Villarreal:
“We English speakers HAVE set up a committee to decided and hand down an edict on what is acceptable or not. It’s called the dictionary and the meanings of each words holds a generally accepted use, no matter what any detractors say to the contrary.”
I’m with you up until this last paragraph. The dictionary is a record, not a rulebook. It records how words are used as the language evolves. New denotations show up in the dictionary because that’s how words are already being used. They don’t show up in the language because the dictionary has deemed them acceptable.
People who try to play rules lawyer with the dictionary make me want to stab a bitch. It’s like saying you can only use your telephone if your number is in the phonebook.
pburke
Hey Jigae,
Notice that over at Bilerico they still won’t acknowledge that Tobi Hill-Meyer (the one who broke the glitter bombing story) has a personal relationship with Rose Pedal (the transwoman who glittered Dan Savage)? They also won’t condemn Rose Pedal’s statement that she regrets she didn’t get the chance to cause more physical harm to Savage. They even put up a third post about the incident that ignores all of this. So apparently Bilerico thinks it’s ok to commit violence against someone you deem is not being PC enough. The recent post claims glitter bombing is effective when all this incident has done is shown that Bilerico has no issues with posting lies and condones violence.
CBRad
@pburke: Well what do you expect from Bilerico!? That’s the blog that had the dopey kid trying to equate gay men with the UK rioters and looters.
Jigae
@133: I think what they don’t seem to get over at Bilerico is that all publicity is not good publicity. Sure this is bringing attention to trans people, but it’s not painting the community in a good light. As several people have said at Bilerico, Slog, here, and other places, attacking an ally for their failings might feel satisfying but is not remotely productive.
I also wonder to what degree these stories have simply become link-bait because they cause such immediate and fervent controversy. When Daniel Villarreal posted this story, was he really thinking of raising the consciousness of Queerty readers or the total number of page views? The same can easily be said of Savage, etc.
That to me should be more offensive to the queer community — your outrage is potentially being used as a revenue generating tool. Doesn’t that make you feel a little used?
Jigae
@133: And don’t even get me start of Tobi Hill-Meyer’s post: “Available Alternatives. There is no reason not to use the value neutral term, “trans,” instead of “she-male.” However, there is no value neutral term other than “cis” that can be used.”
In all the languages of the world, past and present, this is the ONLY possible word we can use? Seriously?
pburke
@CBRad
Didn’t see that one, but I’m not surprised.
Hephaestion
I don’t care if transgender persons use “cisgender” as a slur. Why should anyone care? we all need to get our frustrations off our chests once in a while, and slurs can help us to do that. Only Transgender Jesus would never ever use a slur.
Jigae
@138: So when a white person is having a bad day and gets cut off in traffic by someone of another race, they should just feel free to pick the slur that applies and shout it at the top of their lungs?
pburke
@Jigae
I agree with your statement that these controversies appear to be used as link bait. Especially in the case of Bilerico’s reporting of the glitter bombing. Now that we know Tobi Hill-Meyer had a previous relationship with Rose Pedals, I don’t think it’s that far of a stretch to say they probably planned the glittering together to create drama and get page views. And, as you’ve stated, it’s an insult to the community that they would try to use us in this way.
the other Greg
After plodding through these dispiriting, albeit occasionally amusing comments, I have a suggestion:
Several trannies of color should go to whatever upper-middle-class cisgender ghetto John Aravosis lives in, and beat him up! While yelling “CIS” at him!
Think he’ll figure out then?
Vann
“Cis” is nothing more than an attempt by a group of unstable people to assert their power over others through language. They know that they are not liked and are not respected. They have very little ability to craft a persuasive argument. All they have is bullying tactics, such as stalking, glittering, name-calling, etc. And they have an activists’ devotion to manipulating language. Trans activists love the mind-numbing jargon of the postmodern academics and “cis” is right in line with that.
The very best thing that gays and lesbians and bisexuals can do for themselves and for trans people is to fight these trans activists every step of the way. End LGBT. We can be allies with reasonable trans people on specific issues, but we are not some new Frankenstein creation called LGBT. And we do not allow others to define us, whether as “cis” or otherwise. We define ourselves.
The trans activist clique that came up with cis and LGBT could populate a medium-sized mental institution. We gain nothing by associating with them and we stand to lose our identity and our autonomy.
Laughriotgirl
@Jigae: Then by all means come up with a different term. It has been asked over and over. If you don’t like the term “cis”, give people another one to use. Each time this gets asked, the answer is essentially “normal”. If that is the case, then apply that to sexuality and you have a deal.
Amy Dentata's Gaffe
@Laughriotgirl: Non-trans
Simon
@Laughriotgirl: Dont you get it? Transsexuals are suffering from an abnormal condition that needs treatment for them to be happy. Why should i define myself as anything other than normal in that respect?
Im a same-sex attracted person thats normal too as Kinsey reported 50 years ago same-sex attraction is quite common. Acceptance is another thing. And acceptance of same-sex attraction is improving luckily.
Transsexuals are abnormal and require treatment. Gay people are normal and show variations of human sexuality that are normal too even if not being the most common variation.
Abnormal sexuality would be those that involved other species, were harmful to one partner or involved dead bodies
John
I have an Idea, how about naturally gendered, Especially since changing your sex doesn’t really happen in nature. I’m sure i’ll get flak for calling them not natural, but by the very definition, eh, they aren’t (There are animals that can however, be both sexes)
timncguy
@Laughriotgirl: I’ll be happy to admit that being gay is “not the norm”. That doesn’t mean it’s abnormal. But, at somewhere between 3 – 8 percent of the population, it’s certainly not the “norm”. Somehow though, I don’t believe you are really willing to stick with the deal you have offered.
Jigae
@145: There so many things wrong with your argument — even thirty to forty years ago homosexuality was considered by our culture to be a pathological condition requiring treatment, which we no longer believe. People with allergies, near-sightedness, or congenital heart defects all require treatment. I doubt you’d be as quick to label them “abnormal.”
I dislike the term ‘cis’ but still think neither you or laughriotgirl are doing the gay or trans community any good with your inflammatory arguments.
timncguy
@Jigae: @Jigae: I think you might want to remove your reference to near-sightedness from your post. Because, we tend to refer to people who don’t require corrective lenses for their sight as people with “normal” vision. Even worse, we refer to people with 20/20 vision as having “perfect” vision. And, these references to normal vision and perfect vision don’t seem to upset people who require glasses.
Simon
@Jigae: Someone has to bring this argument down to earth. There are real consequences of accepting queer theory nonsense. One is not a bad person for having heart disease but one’s heart is not parallel to a normal healthy heart if it requires treatment.
I dont have anything in common with transsexuals and im not adding artificial prefixes to my identity to preserve a misconceived “alliance”. Forget it
Simon
@Jigae: And with regard to same-sex attraction being thought of as disease then there is a REASON it was declassified as a disease, namely that those individuals can live happy, fulfilled, fully functional lives with NO treatment. Get it now…?
Jigae
@149/150: I think it’s a problem to act like your identity is totally “natural” when a large percentage of Americans still think being gay is totally abnormal, immoral, and unnatural. Our ideas of what is “natural” change with time and will continue to change. Acting like being gay isn’t a deviation from the norm shows a lack of self-awareness or a level of disingenuous in your arguments.
I don’t like the term ‘cis.’ I don’t necessarily think the trans movement makes sense as part of the LGB movement. But I think infighting between the gay and trans community does no one any good. Comments like Simon’s make gay men look unaware of their own privilege and also not so different from the homophobes that oppress them.
Jigae
@151: A shitload of gay men I know are in therapy or self-medicating through sex, drugs, or functional alcoholism. This can easily be attributed to the consequences but societal prejudice or family issues but I wouldn’t say gays are somehow more functional than transfolk.
Why is it important to you to define transpeople as “sick?”
CBRad
@Vann: “we are not some new Frankenstein creation called LGBT..” LOL!!!
JayKay
So how long until the ultra-leftist, “no such thing as normal,” “no restrictions or judgements on anyone ever,” genderqueer, pro-trans, sex-warrior crowd starts demanding that gays accept and embrace pedophiles? I mean they’re the most systemically oppressed sexual minority there is. Obviously that means we have soooooooooo much in common, and we have a responsibility to align ourselves with them and fight their battles for them whether we want to or not, right?
timncguy
@Jigae: Please read my post at #147 and you will see that I already embraced the idea that being gay is outside the “norm”. And, I have no problem at all with calling myself “gay” and using “not gay” as the term for what we now call straight people. Therefore, according to Laughriotgirl at #143 I should now expect her to refer to me as not trans instead of cisgendered. Additionally she will now accept the fact that trangendered individuals are outside the “norm” without it affecting her feelings of self worth. What really needs to happen here is for everyone to realize that not being a part of the “norm” is not the same as being “abnormal”.
missanthrope
For all of the wounded protestations of cis people over these words, I’ve never seen them try very hard to come up with a new term when they’re invited too by trans people in these ridiculous debates. And when they do it’s usually a cumbersome term that ends othering trans people like “non-trans” (as if being trans is an exceptional oddity).
99.9% of the objections I’ve seen are really just a intellectually dishonest reactions from people at having their privileged position pointed out and then trying disarm trans people of the language we use to describe our oppression.
Could you imagine talking about homophobia if straight people demanded that the word straight, heterosexual or any such word used to describe them not be used? The whole language that queers use to describe and discuss our own oppression would be lost and we could not make an argument against a hetero-centrist society for basic equality.
That’s basically what’s behind all of the “controversy” over the word cis, it’s a power play by a group who has privilege to deny another group from discussing it.
Unless cis people want to engage in talking about systematic transphobia and the power structures they benefit from, then the word is here to stay. Deal with it.
Wh1t
@JAW:
“That is the craziest thing I have ever read.. G&L people are Not privileged anymore then all Trans people are Not privileged”
Counter-point #1. More states protect sexual orientation than gender identity.
(http://www.progressivestates.org/sync/images/dispatch/hrc.map-1.png)
And many LGBT services are mainly for LGBs. Those places typically don’t know what to do with T’s or they just used the phrase as to seem more inclusive. I’ve actually been to my local LGBT centre and they didn’t have anything for transpeople and they had been in operation for 6-7 years.
Simon
@Jigae: It is important for me to have clarity in definition. Of course people who require treatment are “sick”. Do normal people require sex change operations?? If there is no “normal” then we lose the ability to promote health and happiness. Any attempts to hide the truth by pseudointellectual nonsense makes the task more difficult. Particularly for those who are not wise enough to see through the nonsense.
Im only interested in the happiness of individuals, not in making alliances between groups who fight over who is least privileged. This no way to further mental health and happiness. Deconstructivism and queer theory goes counter to human nature. Sex is NOT a social construct. Children are not born tabula rasa. They have psychic life from birth that is sex specific. If we want happiness and stop medicating ourselves with sex, drugs and alcohol we need to live lives in accord with human nature and the forces in our subconscious. Queer theory really isnt a step forward there…
Riker
@JayKay: We of the GLBTP community resent your statement as paedophobia!
ShortinIt
@John: And “naturally-gendered” could just be shortened to “natgendered”.
ShortinIt
There’s something I don’t really get. If you’re transgendered, doesn’t that mean that you felt the mind/person didn’t match up with the body, so the goal is to get the physical change to match the inside? So, if you change your sex, aren’t you now ostensibly a man or a woman (the one you changed the outside into) and now nobody is supposed to know any differently? You got the medical “correction” done. So how does that, in general, equate to us who know we are men but like men, or women who still like women? Maybe I’m looking at it too simply? I see the two as such separate things that I don’t understand why we’re supposed to be “linked” together.
Leonard Fritz
@Missanthrope:
I figured you would arise from the swamp to offer your two cents. People, this nutjob publicly blogged about assaulting his mother and about being concerned that he might assault his son. He also fantasized about breaking the nose of a lesbian friend of his, because she offended him in some manner. In other words, this person should be talking to a therapist, not lecturing gay people about morality.
I could very easily see a change in the terms used to refer to straights. If they objected and wanted a different term to be used, we should use it. As it turns out,straights created the term “heterosexual,” so that has not caused any issue. “I have no idea who created the term “straight,” but as far as I know, there has never been an objection. If there were, we wouldn’t use it. That is b/c we have a sense of decency, in sharp contrast to trans activist thugs.
Jigae
@timncguy: I agree with all of your point here. I may have misinterpreted something else you said and I apologize if that’s the case. I’m not sure why so many people fetishize being part of the norm or feel they can somehow shame others into acceptance.
Thanks for your explanation and calm, rational discussion.
Will
Okay no offense but this is the most ridiculous debate ever. 184 comments over this?
Worry about REAL equality everyone.
I support the trans community whole heartedly and I will admit that they have gotten a raw deal. But the chip really needs to come off the shoulders of some trans-activists.
Stop worrying about Dan Savage and start worrying about every GOP candidates and the ones out there that are truly against you. The ones who won’t pass ENDA because its trans inclusive.
Its semantics like this that push the T further away from the LGB. And just makes the fight even harder.
Personally I don’t give a shit what anyone calls me. I just want to be called EQUAL.
John
@Wh1t:
So you’re saying gay men shouldn’t have the right to be protected? that we don’t deserve that and it’s just a “Privilege”? Be careful when you use that word. I think it’s important to define the word privilege here. A privilege is something you don’t necessarily deserve. Ever hear a parent say something is a privilege not a right? That’s because people don’t have to have privileges.
People are on the other hand guaranteed basic fundamental rights. So by your argument you are saying that because Gay people have a status in society where they are protected, the don’t necessarily deserve it. That is madness to me, that runs counter to a belief in equality. I understand Transgender people don’t have some of those rights yet, i’m not blind.
So let me ask a fundamental question, once Transgender people have those protections will, they be privileges or rights?
Mags
The privilege on display here is pretty unbecoming. “Cis” and “cisgender” are no more a “slur” than referring to someone as homosexual or heterosexual. It IS the opposite of transsexual. Hence, if you are not trans, you are cis.
And it takes an amazing amount of cognitive dissonance for those with more privilege to claim persecution by those with less privilege. You aren’t offended because you believe it’s a slur, you’re offended because it’s uncomfortable when people point out your privilege and you get defensive to maintain it and think of yourself as a great person. It’s just human nature. I understand.
And this talk of how we should ignore people who make transphobic comments like Dan Savage and worry about only the GOP? We can focus on both. The fact that our supposed allies do this sort of thing (and have many other cis men and women ready to defend them and tell us what we should and shouldn’t find offensive, which, again, exercising privilege and being very condescending), makes it all the more shameful and worthy of calling attention to.
Mags
Cis means, basically, same or same side, as in your mind and body align. It is a term that offers no judgement, but also does not “other” or disrespect those who are transgendered, in the way that referring to those who are not trans as “natural” or “normal” would be, implying that this isn’t normal. It may not be a majority, but it is still a sizable portion of human beings that deserve respect and decency.
As for the argument of what’s natural, guess what? Computers aren’t natural and you’re using one. Cars aren’t, neither are bikes. Got one of those? Surgery isn’t natural.
Hey, speaking of surgery, that brings up another fun argument I hear: if you’re born a man or woman, you’re always one, no matter what, right? Well, let’s take that logic for a walk:
If you’re born with an appendix, you’re always a person with an appendix. No surgery can change that. You were born with one. Why can’t you just be happy with your appendix, prone to exploding, horrible disease? It’s just not natural to hire some butcher to cut you open and remove a part of yourself.
See? Kind of doesn’t hold up.
Mags
Also, here’s a little something for people claiming trans “activist thugs” are too mean, so you can disregard them:
http://derailingfordummies.com/#hostile
http://derailingfordummies.com/#angry
http://derailingfordummies.com/#asbad
Hope that helps.
Adam
nor·mal/?nôrm?l/
Adjective:
Conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.
There is no need for Cis because there is no need to define how the vast majority of the human species is born (with their genitalia matching their inner sexual identity). We make terms used to describe people that are different so we can identify the differences to the majority. I am not saying there is anything wrong with being transexual at all, but there is simply no need to define what is “normal” (as defined by the dictionary). For example in the animal kingdom there is a red wolf. So if you saw one in nature, you may say, “Oh wow, look at that red wolf”. But if you saw a regular wolf, you wouldn’t have to say, “Oh wow, look at that grey wolf”. Wolves in general are known to be grey normally, so there is no need to designate it. There is nothing wrong with the red wolf, however it is different from the more common, standard, and expected wolf. Cis sounds like a term made by transgendered to make themselves feel more comfortable than anything else. There is simply not a need to designate what is the “normal”, and by that I mean what the vast majority of humans are
sugarkat03
LOL!, I swear, the failure and stupidity of most cis people makes me laugh everyday. I find it a sad joke how cis people are going up in arms about the term “cisgender” when it’s just a fact, like being transgender. If people take offense to be called cisgender then I’d suppose black people are offended to be called black. The term “cisgender” comes from chemistry, opposed to trans. Before any of you smug, condescending shit-for-brains start opening that forked tongued mouth of yours at least try putting your bulbous noses in a book and try getting the facts straight. Of all honesty, who the fuck are you tight-lipped jokers to prance about going” oh tsk tsk” to trans people lmaooo, Some of the most violent, dimwitted, poor mannered people come from your group of people. It’s hilarious how a band of people do the judge judy game to a group of people when they’re the fault of all murders,suicides, abuse, and cruelty of trans people. It’s like the feral lion calling the mouse a killer, lmaoo, the hell out of here. Just because your part of group that is a majority of the world doesn’t make your voice the automatic “right”. Lmaoo, you’d wonder why most trans people can’t trust a cis person for shit, because the majority of your people act like a bunch of souless, primitive, narcissistic, and delirious psychos that hate and dismay anything that’s different from them. Seriously, if you’re pretending to be smart with whatever cheap degree you got it doesn’t work, no matter how many people like you agree. lol , try fucking with a trans person I swear, it’s like fucking with jesus, since he’s not a clueless fool who spews vile hatrid like most of your people do. I’d suggest you’d get your wreck of people together and stop dictating how a group of people act because they “hurt your little feelings” because we’re sick of your bullshit. Please do cry me a river and pop a blood vessel in your head for all I care. I honestly don’t hate cis people, but I hate cis people that act like they have the upper hand and think they have the right to dictate how a poorly treated minority group behaves. Here’s an example for you, say you have the world dominated 99% of lions and the 1% are antelopes, the lions being cis and the antelopes being trans. The antelopes are constantly abused and harassed to extremes everyday by the lions. the murder rates of antelopes is at least 70%. Do you honestly think the antelopes are just going to sit there and do absolutely nothing while bottling up that anger and frustration at the lions and not hating most of them? If you agree yes then I think you’ve must of been dropped on the asphalt as a child. It’s like how a snake defends itself when a human keeps poking it with a stick, it’s going to attack, duh. It’s pretty pathetic how most of you so claimed “allys” don’t get that. I’m also very happy how some *real* allys actually get it, You may have the upper hand but just remember this, trans people have the brains, most of your kind doesn’t. If you want to be a real ally then get off your high horse and put the down the gavel and learn the fact that your people pushed trans people on a scale of heights enough to tick the bomb. You think you’re putting trans people in their place? Ha! cis people are always the culprit of the most heinous crimes and injustices, you have no room to talk what so ever. Now get a life, get your shit together, and quit pretending to be “intellectual” on this website. Thank you and good day. 😀
Brycedavid
Never used that word and will never use it. The LGBTwhatever is a mess