Follow grade-school levels of decorum around strangers and you’ll be fine. Don’t overshare—your bodies and your sex lives aren’t necessarily of interest to us. Don’t expect us to dance with you. It’s not my senior prom. Do not use us as as fonts of information about all gay men, either in general or at that bar. We are not all gay men. We are ourselves. Fawning over couples as being “soooo cute” comes off as condescension at best and overcompensation at worst.
And if you take away one thing from this article, let it be this: keep your fucking bachelorette party out of our bars. If you treat my safe space like your zoo, I will seduce your fiance while you’re out selecting stationary.”
—From blogger Zach Rosen’s “A Girl’s Guide to Attending A Gay Bar” in Jezebel.com
Images via Endlisnis, TalesOfTheBarSide
Scott
Well stated. In Seattle, places like the cuff have begun charging covers for straight girls to enter. It seems to be working too. Hopefully other gay bars will follow suit.
HJ
How about lesbians? How is the etiquette different?
If you’re charging a cover for straight girls, do you ask women as they come in if they’re straight?
PopSnap
If they support us, who cares? What, should we start booting straight people out of
our bars? That’d just make us every bit as bad as Christians who boot us out of
their churches.
DenverBarbie
As I stated in a previous related post, I am less irritated (though, still slightly peeved) by the straight women and more concerned about straight men who feel it is appropriate to try to pick up women at gay bars. This author (and don’t get me wrong, loved the quote Queerty has posted) refers to gay bars and clubs as safe spaces, and that is exactly what they are supposed to be. A straight girl cooing and yelling about how “oh-soooo cute gay guys are!!” violates and threatens this safe space much less than a straight guy hounding a perceived straight girl about going home with him.
DenverBarbie
@Scott: How do we determine if a woman is straight or not? Do they have to have short hair? A tattoo of a vagina on their forearm? Do our lesbian microchips have to set off the scanner at the door?
What about ladies like me, with feminine hair and high heels? Do we have to pay, just in case we are faking it? Do we have to show up with a butch girlfriend? What if we like other femmes? Do we have to go to another bar entirely- one for the lesbians, even if we have always hung out with and related to gay men more so than we have other women?
Does the simply saying that one is not straight suffice?
And then, how do we combat sexism once inside the bar? Will the bar staff give us crap drinks? Will the bouncers and other employees snuff us?
I understand the frustration, truly I do. Drunk straight women at gay bars can, and frequently do, act in a way that is exploitive and not supportive. However, combatting that with a sexist policy isn’t the answer.
And what about straight men? Do they have to pay a cover?
DenverBarbie
Definitely meant-
“Does simply saying that one is not straight suffice?”
And shunt, not snuff…
And policies…
Man, is it an off day! 🙂
Chris
My straight, female family members wanted to go to a gay bar as part of our vacation and I could not understand why. They seemed to have some naive infatuation about the whole thing. It was really annoying.
Scott
My bad– it is ALL women. Not just the straight ones. They pay triple cover. So yes- lesbians and even trans (f2m) pay the triple cover. I haven’t seen straight girls there in a long time. Some lesbians, trans persons, etc. are usually waved the cover charge if they are friends of the staff. Might not be PC- might be just as bad as a cake maker refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding, or even worse, but it’s a welcome change for me personally, as well as many of the gay male clientele who don’t want the bar to become another neighbors situation. Neighbors is another gay bar (or used to be) in Seattle. It was taken over by straight girls, and then straight guys came next. These people are not there to be supportive of gays- the straight ladies took over with their obnoxious bridal showers, in hopes of not being ogled by straight guys. Then, the straight guys came. It’s now just a dance club, where it once was a good gay club.
Scott
My bad– it is ALL women. Not just the straight ones. They pay triple cover. So yes- lesbians and even trans (f2m) pay the triple cover. I haven’t seen straight girls there in a long time. Some lesbians, trans persons, etc. are usually waved the cover charge if they are friends of the staff. Might not be PC- might be just as bad as a cake maker refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding, or even worse, but it’s a welcome change for me personally, as well as many of the gay male clientele who don’t want the bar to become another neighbors situation. Neighbors is another gay bar (or used to be) in Seattle. It was taken over by straight girls, and then straight guys came next. These people are not there to be supportive of gays- the straight ladies took over with their obnoxious bridal showers, in hopes of not being ogled by straight guys. Then, the straight guys came. It’s now just a dance club, where it once was a good gay club. It’s become a dog and pony show, where drag queens perform for straight people, and the straight people in turn feel as though they’ve been enlightened and open-minded by going somewhere they think is gay.
Scott
Sorry–meant trans (m2f) not (f2m), F2M’s pay no cover. Is it sexist and completely inappropriate in a PC world of post-feminism and tolerance? Yes! Does it solve the issue that the gay, male, clientele were complaining about (the straight washing of our “sacred” spaces)? It does. And, as nice as it might sound for all LGBT to be united and share bars, etc…it doesn’t happen too often in the real world. Sure, lesbians will go to bars that are predominately gay male, and vice versa; but it’s rarely an equal mix. Gay men have their bars, gay women have theirs. I’m guessing in smaller towns this is different, where gay men and women may only have one establishment that they share, but in larger cities- it really is self-imposed segregation. Tricky subject to deal with on a PC level- but I was just stating my opinion on the matter, and that remains unfettered. They are GAY bars for a reason.
And to Denver Barbie–I wholly disagree when you say that straight girls fawning over cute gay couples is less threatening to a “safe” gay space than a straight guy picking up a perceived straight girl at a gay place. Perhaps from a female perspective this is true, and I don’t even pretend to speak for all gay men- but to me the mere presence of straight girls (and to some extent, females in general) are far more threatening to gay male establishments, than a straight guy trying to pick up a girl. I’d prefer neither be in gay male bars, and yes for a lot of straight guys the gay male bar is still a place many of them fear to tread, so that issue is not that prevalent (likely it is in lesbian bars though). However, as I stated in the previous post about the Neighbors bar–once the straight girls start to take over, the straight guys follow.
Rob
I think all of these need to be wrapped up in a “while you are embarrassingly drunk”. What is it with straight girls and getting silly, shamefully, no fun drunk in gay bars?
As for the bachelorette parties, have some respect. Being embarrassingly drunk, WHILE flaunting a marriage tradition that we are forbidden is not just bad bad judgement, it borders on hatefully inconsiderate.
Seth
Straight girls and gay boys can both be obnoxious, drunk idiots. If someone is respectful I don’t give a f*ck who they want to sleep with and what bar they go to.
newcityspot
Let them in no cover, allow them to buy a bunch of drinks, at the first obnoxious behavior give them a warning and the second time kick them out! You get their money, but don’t deal with the obnoxiousness.
Done.
B
No. 1 · Scott wrote, “Well stated. In Seattle, places like the cuff have begun charging covers for straight girls to enter.”
The bar is setting itself up for a lawsuit – Washington has a law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and it is illegal for a bar to charge one rate for straight women and another for gay men: http://www.hum.wa.gov/documents/Brochures/PA091407B.pdf has a summary (this is a link to a government web site, not some random blogger’s opinion).
B
In No. 1 · Scott wrote, “Well stated. In Seattle, places like the cuff have begun charging covers for straight girls to enter.”
The bar is setting itself up for a lawsuit – Washington has a law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and it is illegal for a bar to charge one rate for straight women and another for gay men: http://www.hum.wa.gov/documents/Brochures/PA091407B.pdf has a summary (this is a link to a government web site, not some random blogger’s opinion).
DenverBarbie
@Scott: @B: “UNDER RCW 49.60.215, A PLACE OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION CANNOT: …, Charge a different rate or offer different terms and conditions of service; …”
Seems pretty crystal clear. I hope someone brings that to their attention.
3x the cover is outrageous! (A cent more than the cover men pay would still be outrageous.) If a lesbian bar charged men triple upon entrance, I can assure you the gay blogosphere would be up and raging… and rightfully so!
Chadboy
Women have had it easy in bars for years. How many places offer women drink for free in straight establishments? There is never an offer of men to drink for free. Since the beginning of time women have gotten off cheaply in bars by drinking for free or having guys buy their drinks for them. It’s about time they pay up. If they want to go to a male gay bar then they should pay a cover. Before anyone says it is fair if I were to go to a lesbian bar I’m happy to pay a cover as well.
The internet and women going to gay bars has killed the gay bar scene. In the 90s you might see 1 or 2 girls out at the bars. Now you have 25 or more and they zap all the sexual energy from the place. Think about a typical straight bar and if you dropped 25 gays into it how the vibe would change.
ScaryRussianHeather
The dichotomy. How many decades will LGBT need safe space, alienating straight supporters who are the mothers, sisters, employers and decision makers in hetero society. Some day it’ll be time to live out, proud and as part of human society not sexual subgroups. Self-segregation is understandable, so I won’t hold my breath. Infiltrating hetero bars in large groups should be on the agenda albeit it could result in penalties up to and including death so only the most courageous will do it. Oh wait. The booty call gets much more complex in the hetero bars.
What’s the problem, anyway? Don’t engage them in conversation and they won’t “overshare”, “try to learn” or any of the other sinful acts you cite.
Take a page from Sutan Amrull living and working as Raja who welcomes heteros to his audience and promotes humanity, love, inclusion and creating new families when your biological one disowns you.
Those two girls above, young, cute, harmless “interlopers” will be tomorrow’s mothers so proceed accordingly. J/S
Luckily for now, they’re too young, hopeful and naive to understand equality is a one way street with the current crop of LGBT pseudo-activists. sigh
ScaryRussianHeather
@Chadboy: “Think about a typical straight bar and if you dropped 25 gays into it how the vibe would change.”
Exactly. And that’s exactly what you should be doing. Or sit around on the internet bemoaning the lack of true equality for LGBT. Not that I blame you. Equality is hard work and requires some sacrifice and grass roots activities for EVERYONE. It isn’t just up to politicians to effect change.
Alternatively, go back to private clubs requiring memberships. (As if the bars are going to turn away straight dollars)
I was going to gay bars during the outbreak of “gay plague” and you can be sure if LGBT weren’t hiding in private isolated bars afraid to drink out of glasses not knowing how or when we’d all “catch it”….there would have been much earlier and broader HIV AIDS research, funding and treatment.
Roxxy
@DenverBarbie:
There are bars that the women pay no cover, I guess this is also and issue because the men pay more.
J.
I was at a local gay bar and overheard some straight girls go ewww over two guys kissing! I was like wtf? You’re in a gay bar! I don’t care if the straight women go there so long as they are respectful.
Max the Communist
Hmmm . . . there’s an Emily Post-style etiquette book in this for some enterprising queer with the gumption to publish it.
I think gay/bi men should enlist the help of lesbian/bi women in these situations. Het girls acting obnoxiously? Send in the dykes. A bit of faux-flirtation and come-on will send them scurrying.
George412
@ScaryRussianHeather:
SRH, I have no desire to go to a straight bar. I go to bars to meet guys to possibly date. It would be a waste of mine and most gay guys’ time to hang out in straight bars. As a minority community it is nice to know that you can go out to places and be ourselves and meet people like us. Straight people have grocery stores, work, restaurants, gyms, etc. Every place is open to straight people meeting. There are few places where gays can go knowing that it is okay to approach a guy. Straight bars would be a waste of time.
Lycere
Brilliant. Just brilliant. So here I am, a rather slightly built and small gay FtM, who gets mistaken for female on a regular basis. And now I have to worry that if I want to go to a gay bar to meet men that I’m going to be glared at the whole time like I’m some sort of unwanted interloper just because I might get perceived as a woman? Take your cries of “needing a safe space” and shove them up your ass – it’s not a “safe space” if it’s not safe for *everyone*, and this sort of sex discrimination rather makes it unsafe for those of my ilk.
test
@Lycere:
just clarifying, you’re a gay FtM who is into men? So the gay is in reference to your attraction to men while feeling like a man inside?
Ed
@ScaryRussianHeather:
I don’t believe the bulk of the straight women who go to gay bars are “supporters.” They go there for selfish reasons. I’m not saying that is inherently a bad thing, but I take issue with the image painted of these women being big supporters of the gay community. They go for many selfish reasons including: they want to drink without having men breathing down their necks, some bizarrely think they might find that one “sensitive” gay guy that they can’t find in the straight man world who they can actually “convert” (barf), some go to hang with their girly-man friends, and others go because they think it makes them more cosmopolitan to patronize those “poor gays” and then pat themselves on the shoulder for their contrived open-mindedness. Stay the fuck out of our bars and make your own way. I agree with others here who have said that women have had it easy in bars for decades. Just cause you can’t bully the straight men around doesn’t mean you’re going to come into a gay bar and dominate us!
Ed
And I have to add, I’m tired of getting “the eye” from aggressive straight women in a gay bar. Very much not cool. Some of them are worse than the male trolls who can’t take NO for an answer!
Joe
@test:
Um, Why would you think you’re entitled to safe space if you are in a homosexual bar, and you are not homosexual?
C.A.
I think there also needs to be an article for straight men in lesbian bars:
1. Don’t hit on any girls in lesbian bars, that is what straight bars are for.
2. Don’t adjust your junk in front of everyone, it is kind of gross
3. If you’re not comfortable around gay men don’t frequent any type of gay establishment.
4. Don’t stare when two girls are kissing, it is rude.
Amber
How would you feel if I were discriminating against you, assuming that I can seduce your partner and telling you to keep the fuck out of my bars? Your “60 to 1” ratio is complete a utter bullshit. You are exaggerating, stereotyping and being all around rude. I hate when people believe that enjoying a man’s dick up their ass, not enjoying a man’s dick anywhere, or even enjoying both, entitles them to special privileges. What really pisses me off is that most of these women are merely trying to enjoy themselves and possibly build a connection with a stranger, just like everyone else does in a regular bar and they are being looked down on, by some holier than thou, asshole. My message to you is: New flash, almost everyone has sex after a certain age, this isn’t some new insane movement you are participating in. Get over your fucking self. What ever happened to equality and putting petty differences aside. These women are daughters, sisters, and mothers. They are every bit as human as you are and deserve the same treatment you receive. Do me a favor and look throughout history, look at other countries, women have had to deal with just as much discrimination as you have and looking down on us because we aren’t like you isn’t helping anything. It’s only perpetuating the discrimination that other people have worked so hard to lay to rest.
heat
The most annoying thing I’ve ever dealt with at the gay bar that I DJ at is the bachelorette parties that come in. No I won’t announce your happy day over the microphone, no I won’t give you a dollar for a lollipop “suck for a buck”, and I’m sure as hell not gonna give your friend a gay lap dance so that you can take a funny picture on your wild and crazy night out. I have left brides to be in tears after ripping them to shreads for their blatent stupidity in flaunting this shit in our bars.
arbiter
@Amber – Because being treated like you’re a side-show attraction or the subject of a petting zoo is somehow not offensive? Human being status is not in debate, not acting like a DB in front of a bunch of strangers because you want to “take a walk on the wild side” is. It IS offensive, it IS rude to act like a ruddy tourist amongst walking novelty items and it is the result of–mostly benign, yes–discrimination. So, stop acting like all the hate mongers who say marriage equality is discriminating against THEM, brush that little chip off your shoulder and resign yourself to your life of sublime banality, pop out couple of kids and forget all about the big bad meanie gays on queerty.
Joe
@Amber:
Sorry, I know you’re probably some self-entitled 20 or early 30-something who has seen nothing but a charmed life insofar as civil rights go, but the reason gay bars exist in the first place is because straight men AND straight women put us there decades ago!
Don’t give me this bullshit that you have equal opportunity to gay bars. Use your own fucking bars, there are certainly plenty of them! Gay men don’t need or want to be harassed by straight females anymore than straight females want to be harassed by straight men! Get it? No? Too fucking bad!
Hello?
@Amber:
I know you are accustomed to being the center of attention since you are probably some upper-middle class suburban little douchebag who was fawned over by Mommy and Daddy all your life, grew up on the privileged path of that feminist warriors forged for you (who ironically is also responsible for he modern-day female chauvinistic BULLY) and who thinks that you should be able to do whatever the fuck your dear little heart desires. But gay men and women fought long and hard for our lives and continue to do so everyday. I assure you that YOU nor other females have endured the sheer HATE that has been, and continues to be felt by men and women around the world toward homosexuals. Not because we hurt anyone. Not because we don’t contribute to society. Not because we dont fight for out country in war. but because of WHO WE ARE and WHO WE LOVE. I guarantee you have never, ever, in your privileged little life experienced the kind of discrimination we have to the extent that we have had to isolate ourselves in discrete and insular communities, from which gay bars have evolved. I doubt you know the feeling of having your entire fucking family DISOWN you because of who you love. I doubt you know the feeling of being bullied and abused in school, or being the subject of religious zealots who think that “doing God’s work” includes hating gays and telling us how to live our lives because of what they read in a BOOK. I can’t remember the last female child who took her own life because she was ostracized and humiliated because she was a female. So please, bitch, take your fucking tales of woe to someone who gives a flying fuck, cause we do not! Start your own fucking bars for straight women only, and leave us alone. You may be Daddy’s Little Girl but to us you’re just another whiny straight biatch. And I know you think the world of straight men are just infatuated with your self-perceived awesomeness, but the reality is that to most of them you are nothing more than a PUSSY to stick it in!
Haulie
Amber…do you live in Austin? Were you the drunk blonde staggering around spilling your drink on me and my friends? If you weren’t well, boy; there are sure a lot of you and your “gay supporters” out there last night!
I agree with all of the postings above; with the exception of a few (Cynthia!! You are one of a kind!), most of the straight women at bars are *not* there to support us; they treat gay people like zoo animals. I am soooooo freakin’ sick of some drunk, slobbering girl who thinks it is perfectly okay to come up and start rubbing her nasty self on me; so she can tell her friends “she made out with a girl”. It is worse when she has a husband or BF in tow that I then need to watch out for the rest of the night as the fucker will now “bump” in to me everytime he walks by. Straight girls bring straight boys to our space; and sadly; all too many times; straight boys bring violence. I am *tired* of having to clean the spilled drinks off my boots and jacket when I get home from their sloppiness. I live in Seattle; I go to the Cuff…it is my neighborhood bar; I have been going there for 15+ years. I understand and *support* their policy of women paying more. Do I pay more? No. I do not. Neither do most of my Dyke friends. But I EARNED that by supporting my hometown bar throughout all these years…
So…yes…I would *cautiously* welcome straight women into the bars…but do not enable their entitlement; if they are drunk, sloppy; or touching us without our consent…CURB ‘EM…
Daddy Jeff
@Scott: The Cuff hosts a monthly Gear Night/Men’s Night (3rd Saturday)with bdsm demo’s and events for Men. On that night once a month and only that night was there a higher cover charge for “all” women. This event is sponsored by LeatherPost.com and aimed at the men’s community. Too many of the women were treating this event like their personal freak show. There are several Women’s nights around Seattle including a few where the men are not allowed in the door at all. Most of the straight clubs in Belltown or Pioneer Square let the women in free or at a discount and charge the men full price. The Cuff has dropped the two tier cover for Gear Night/Men’s night.
Daddy Jeff
Security Manager
The Cuff Complex
uhm
As much as I can understand how frustrating it would be to have these people you’re describing in gay clubs, saying they should not be allowed in, or should be made to pay more (which, in my opinion, makes the place more like a zoo), is discrimination, plain and simple. Which, correct me if I’m wrong, aren’t we meant to be fighting against, not for? Yes, if their behavior is unacceptable, as set out by standard club rules or even special rules made by a specific club (barring blatant discrimination), then throw them out on their asses and ban them.
Look back at some of the arguments posted here (especially ones such as ‘you have your place, don’t come into mine’) and see how closely they resemble the oppressive, discriminatory arguments that countless people(including us) have had to fight against just for their civil rights. Yes, in a perfect world, everyone is entitled to a safe place, but by practising discrimination and, yes, hate, you are actively making that place unsafe – for you as well. I know I would not feel comfortable going to a gay bar, a supposedly ‘safe’ place, if it was made so by militant means and populated by such angry people.
Maybe if we want to be equal, we should start treating everyone equally, not just the ones like us.
Mike UK
we have a major problem with Hen (bachelorette) Parties here in Manchester(UK) to the point that more and more bars are turning men only after they realised they were losing money because gay men were leaving in droves. One bar has actually turned the upstairs into a “drag” bar for hens parties and their followers. The Village used to be a safe place but with the increasing number of hen parties comes increasing numbers of straight guys following them which has resulted in increased threats and violence.
All these problems have increased over the last few years since “Queer as Folk” was filmed in Manchester and they realised there’s a whole new world down Canal Street.
I have nothing against straight men and women coming into the village and having a good night out but they have to realise that they are going to see men kissing men, women kissing women and holding hands etc and not shout vile comments just because they don’t like what they’re seeing, there are plenty of straight areas in the city for them to go to.
John
@uhm:
Discrimination is a broad term and hate isn’t what’s at play here. I don’t think anybody here is hating straight women based on the fact that they are straight women. I think people here are defending their rights to enjoy the recreational spaces that were created for us to feel comfortable within a society that has long hated us, and continues to do so in many ways. It boils down to whose interests are most compelling. Is it the interests of straight girls out to have a good time, regardless of how offensive or obnoxious they become? Or is it about the interests people who have actually suffered from the discrimination and hate put forth from a overwhelmingly heterosexual society? These clubs are the product of gays who have been marginalized and who have created safe spaces for their community, where we can meet others. They were not created by or for self-entitled ditz’s who care more about having a good drunken time than they do about promoting or protecting the interests of gays. Sorry, but discrimination requires a power-play by one group on the other. I think most reasonable people can recognize who holds the power here, and who is merely protecting what little control we have over our social lives. Let the little ditz’s go the millions of other venues that are always open and endearing to them and leave our small inventory of spaces to us. Either that or pay more, just like many men have done over the last several hundred years.
John
Oh, and there is absolutely nothing stopping any of these women from opening female only clubs. While many of the straight women who frequent gay bars seem to think that flirting with gay men is “fun” or “cute” the reality is that most gay guys aren’t interested, find it uncomfortable, or otherwise don’t agree with that sentiment. I seem to recall similar arguments being made by females who started their own “female only” gyms when they got tired of men making them uncomfortable.
Randall
@ScaryRussianHeather:
“Those two girls above, young, cute, harmless “interlopers” will be tomorrow’s mothers so proceed accordingly. J/S”
And that is EXACTLY the problem! This innate concept that straight women are somehow special and should be treated special simply because they breed! That is EXACTLY the problem with straight women being in gay bars. They EXPECT to be treated as special. They are treated that way in straight bars, so they expect it in a gay bar. The problems start when they are treated as just another customer, and not the future mothers of tomorrow. Being a breeder is simply a side-effect of the expression of heterosexual lust. There’s no special training required and practically any of them can do it, way too much and way too often for our poor planet to withstand.
Joe
@Randall:
LOL. You go!
But it’s so true. And I must say that this latest generation of young straight females is about as self-entitled and CRAVING-of-attention as I’ve seen in 40 years. I don’t hate them but at the same time, I certainly don’t find any need to kiss their ass. And, unfortunately, that’s what most of them demand. Again, gay bars were not created for the pleasure of young straight women seeking to control the males they definitely can’t in str8 bars.
Kate
As a straight woman who has frequented gay bars, it was never about wanting to ‘hit on’ gay gays or because the gay community was a novelty to me. This is absolutely absurd. It was the fact that I wanted to go out with my friends- quite simply most of them were gay. I understand the idea of the ‘safe place’ that has been carved out for the LGBT community but I feel the hetero girl in the straight bar is overgeneralized to an insulting degree. But I’m not one to bring a flood of straight people into the club. Lets face it, a percentage of gay men etc. go to the bars to have a good time and for some finding someone to fuck is a high priority. I dont go to gay bars to find someone to fuck. I go because I happen to like to dance however the fuck I want without feeling like I’m getting judged for it.(which after reading this thread I’m not so sure how true this is) I feel good when I go. That’s it. Ive never felt unwelcomed. Alas, maybe I should go to more straight bars, but to be honest the music isnt as good and the people are idiots. I agree that there should be an etiquette and bringing a bachlorette party to a gay club is downright insulting for obvious reasons. Lastly, at a gay club I will pay for all my drinks because I think its worth it and if I have to pay the price so be it- token of my support I suppose.