We’d love to see Jamaica’s tourism board spin this shit:
Between February and July of this year, 98 gay men and lesbians were targeted in 43 different mob attacks, according to the Jamaica Forum for Lesbians, All-Sexuals and Gays. Four lesbians were raped, four gay men were murdered, and the houses of two gay men were burned down.
…
Jamaica also has the world’s third-highest per capita murder rate, behind South Africa and Colombia, and the blend of widespread violence and anti-homosexual prejudice creates a ripe climate for hate crimes targeting gays and lesbians. “We’ve become increasingly violent as a society generally and increasingly tolerant of violence as a solution to our problems,” says Carolyn Gomes, executive director of the human-rights organization Jamaicans for Justice. “It is quite a toxic brew.”
Toxic and nauseating…
Tallskin
Oh look yet another country with religiously created and endorsed hysterical anti-gay attitudes.
Hmmmm.
hisurfer
I hate to be an apologist for religion – I’m not a believer of any faith in any way – but I’ve been to Jamaica & the violence down there isn’t coming from religion. This was close to twenty years ago, but even then there was an undercurrent of anger that pervaded the place. I went down thinking it was going to be all peace, love, and Bob Marley, mon. I was wrong! (Though I did come back with a far deeper appreciation of Marley, that he could fashion a message of hope and revolution in all the anarchy). It’s always the vulnerable who suffer when things fall apart.
I blame slavery, colonialism, poverty, US interference (our military would drop down under Reagan and torch the ganja fields), and corruption. Those old standbys. In any case, organized religion seemed rather weak, and Rastafarianism was a real belief rather than something you talked about while stoned. This is one case where the anti-gay violence is coming from somewhere else besides the preachers.
Mr. B
Yes. I was going to say, Jamaica’s been a violent place for a long time, and most of the violence (of seems to be at the hands of the disenfranchised poor, not a bunch of religious extremists. Buju Banton tried to make some half-assed rationalization of his calls to kill “batty boys” by citing Leviticus, but the anti-gay violence doesn’t have much of an organized force behind it.
Tallskin
sorry HiSurfer, I am getting a tad tired of the “colonial period” being blamed for the anti-gay attitudes of Africans and Jamaicans, (and indeed slavery, for the anti-gay attitudes of black people around the world). It is certainly true that colonised countries had horrible victorian sodomy laws imposed on them by the british colonial power, but we’re now getting on for 50, 60 years since independence, so they are able to choose their own destiny!!!
As for yours, and other commentators on Queerty who have a block about accepting religiouns as the root of anti-gay attitudes, I would point in the direction of this article from Newsweek recently which discussed Jamaican anti-gay attitudes.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20642693/site/newsweek/
“The political climate isn’t likely to change as long as evangelical Christian churches, whose congregations already outnumber those of the mainstream Anglican and Roman Catholic churches, continue to grow in size. “They claim to see sex as solely for procreation, and they are bullying the politicians into toeing the line,†says University of the West Indies senior lecturer Horace Levy. “There would be bloodshed if there was going to be a gay-rights march in this country.†“
hisurfer
Didn’t this just get covered / beaten to death last week? “Black people around the world” are not anti-gay.
There are some countries where the colonial legacy is glaringly obvious, and Jamaica is one of them. I’m sorry that you’re tired of hearing about it. You being tired of it doesn’t change history.
I think you’re missing the connection, though. It’s not: Jamaica inherited Victorian sodomy laws from England. It is: Jamaica did not inherit a funcitoning political, educational, or social system from England. It was, and in some ways remains, a plantation economy. If you mix poverty and political/economic oppression you get violence. Sometimes it’s the Jews who suffer, sometimes women, sometimes the Chinese, & sometimes the queers.
Bill Perdue
I think poor old Tallskin misses the days when the sun didn’t set on the Brutish Empire. He wants to set back in his favorite chair at Raffles, sip a G&T and muse about how backward the natives are.
This is the same good old boy who thinks that the English civil service is correct deporting Pegah Emambakhsh back to Iran, because, confidentially, his ex-bf, who works at the foreign office (now there’s a bastion of truth if ever there was one) thinks she’s straight and made up the bits about being a lesbian and in fear of her life so she could stay in England and get rich on welfare. Like the queen, except the monthly check is bigger, much, much bigger.
Tallskin
Nope Bill P, don’t hanker after the old empire at all.
However, what does concern me a lot about all of you on here is your determined efforts to excuse anti-gay attitudes from these people because they have a different skin colour, which, if you think about it for a moment, is a form of racism, because what you’re saying is that blacks are not capable of behaving in a civilised fashion because they’re black and excuses have to be made for them!
and Bill you are a fucking arsehole. Go back and read what I actually said about the iranian lesbian.
hisurfer
Dude, who’s excusing it? I wrote that I found that Jamaica had an undercurrent of violence permeating the society. That’s hardly a ringing endorsement of a place. It’s also very legitimate to ask, what are the root causes of the violence?
I also called you out for repeatedly implying that black folk are all anti-gay, world-wide. I’m still amazed at this, & I’m waiting for you to respond. Rationally, if you will. And if all you have to back that up is articles from Newsweek then I suggest you get out more & meet some people in flesh and blood. Coloured folk don’t bite.
Mr. B
AIDS activist Steve Harvey was killed because of anti-gay attitudes. However, if you want to go into high-profile shootings in Jamaica, Peter Tosh was killed during a robbery.
All I’m saying is, Jamaica is a very violent place for a lot of people, and it IS mainly a socioeconomic issue. It’s not as if it’s easy to live there as long as you’re not gay–the homophobic violence is just one part of the bigger picture.
Tallskin
HI surfer, you’re right it is perfectly permissable to analyse the causes of violence. I originally said that I think religion is the cause, because (and I admit that I didnt say this originally) religion is the root cause of anti-gay attitudes of western culture, going right back to the adoption of christianity by the emperor constantine at which point homo sex was persecuted -in the 4th century AD.
You say that Jamaican macho culture is also responsible and that jamaica is a violent culture. However, ancient cultures, ones that were pre-christian and pagan, were also macho, violent and yet were rampant with homo sex. Therefore it is legitimate to point out the difference between pre and christian cultures is, in fact, religion. In this case a homophobic and unpleasant religion called christianity which, in its turn picked up its anti gay ideas from judaism and then passed these attitudes onto islam.
I therefore rest my case, your honour!
As for the black equals anti-gay attitudes thing, well I stand by that. There seems a quite clear connection between african and jamaican culture and anti-gay attitudes! Do you deny this???? Witness the frequent news items on these very boards about gays being persecuted in africa and jamaica etc.
And I did not say that all black people are anti gay. I said that I am tired of people blaming the colonial period for the anti gay attitudes of black people around the world.
hisurfer
Here’s irony for you – I was arguing with afrolito a few days back. He said these boards were biased in their portrayals of blacks, that they equated black American culture with homophobia. I disagreed.
I think you just proved his case, if you’re arguing for a black anti-gay bias based upon what gets posted here. Yet based upon my own 40+ years of whoring around, I can pretty comfortably state that homophobia and race are not that closely linked in the US. I’ve felt as welcome in black families as in white or latino or asian families when I’m brought home for dinner. Similarly, the people fighting gay rights seem to come in all colors.
I’ve traveled quite a bit too, and the most homo-intolerant places were the Caribbean, East Asia, and South Asia. You’ve got Christian, Buddhism, and Hinduism there. I haven’t been to Africa, but I certainly wouldn’t base my opinions on the continent on what I read in the popular media.
“And I did not say that all black people are anti gay. I said that I am tired of people blaming the colonial period for the anti gay attitudes of black people around the world.”
1) Yes you did. In your own words: “As for the black equals anti-gay attitudes thing, well I stand by that”
2) “I am tired of people blaming the colonial period for the anti gay attitudes of black people around the world.” I agree, but neither I nor anyone on here argued this. I stated that colonialism was one of the root causes of political instability, which in turn leads to violence.
Tallskin
And?
Point is i tackle anti-gay attitudes wherever I find them. I don’t make excuses and explain them away.
I can’t speak for the US, but here in the UK blacks and muslims are virulently anti-gay and vociferously so. In my days of gay activism, only 15 years ago the most outrageous and disgusting anti-gay attitudes didn’t come from the British right wing but from immigrants from the caribbean. And nowadays muslims have manoeuvered themselves to the top of the list of Most Homophobic in the UK.
So, I won’t make any apologies. I am relating what I have experienced.
And I read a lot of stuff on the internet, I try to keep appraised of gay news worldwide, not just on this site, (which is generally very good, if a tad parochial, but you’re american and that’s to be expected) but the Uk and european ones also. Anti-gay attitudes are passionate and hysterical in black culture as represented by the west indies and africa (a notable exception being South africa, but that is purely because Ian MacKellan tackled Nelson Mandela when the SA constittution was being drawn up and urged him to include clauses about same-sex attraction)
But you failed to answer my question. Do you deny or not that black cultures are more homophobic than western cultures???
Tallskin
Oh and further. A question: why would US gays feel and say that black people are, in general, homophobic?
This surely cannot just be explained away by white ‘racism’, surely?
As someone who lives this side of the pond I read about this phenomenon of “Doing the Down Low”. Now from what I gather, and I could be wrong, this is gay black men, forced by the intense anti-gay attitudes of the US black community, to marry and have sex with other men in secret.
Shall I again rest my case?
Mr. B
Tallskin, I wanted to address one thing in particular. The “Down Low” is a term for MSM that did get its start in urban black American culture (someone correct me if I’m wrong). But any quick look at Craigslist or any other source people use for anonymous sex will reveal a huge number of “discreet” white men doing the exact same thing. White folks just didn’t happen to come up with a catchy term for it. I believe they generally stick to “deceitful fag.”
hisurfer
“why would US gays feel and say that black people are, in general, homophobic? This surely cannot just be explained away by white ‘racism’, surely?”
Oh yes it can, my friend.
Here’s a synopsis of a study that looked at black and white attitudes towards queers – and it’s not what you’d expect from reading the papers:
http://poq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/1/59
and here’s Keith Boykin asking why whites are so homophobic: http://www.keithboykin.com/arch/2007/03/13/top_general_slams_gays
sample:
“Every time a Tim Hardaway or an Isaiah Washington or an unknown black preacher makes an anti-gay comment, reporters call me up and ask why are black people so homophobic. But when high-profile white people make homophobic remarks, nobody ever asks why are white people so homophobic.”
“Do you deny or not that black cultures are more homophobic than western cultures???”
I think this is a nonsense question that falls apart upon inspection.
Do you consider the US a Western Culture? Large portions of this nation are black. Or Brazil? Quite progressive on gay rights … far ahead of the US, in many ways … and with a undeniable African heritage. Or are you just looking at Europe vs. Africa? If so, I’ve already stated that I haven’t been to Africa & so won’t judge. I’m on solid ground here – a lot of places I’ve been to, especially in the developing world, bear little to no resemblance to what we read about in the papers.
Bill Perdue
The bigotry that blights GLBT communities in the US and the EU is obvious if you consider all that’s been stolen from our lives. But the situation for our brothers and sisters in Latin America, the Caribbean, Africa, the Mideast and Asia is catastrophic.
Anyone familiar with the split in the anglocatholic cult knows about the antigay bigotry festering in government and religious circles in Africa, just as it does in Washington, London, Paris, Tokyo etc. Bigotry came to Africa with European slave ships, colonists, and bayonets. The colonies were feeding grounds for the ravenous greed of the East India Company, Leopold of Belgium, the Japanese in China, The US in the Philippines, the French in Algeria, Mussolini in Libya, and etc. Independence didn’t arrive with a stable economy, finances, a rich cultural and educational establishment, or an adequate physical infrastructure, satisfactory housing, heath and nutrition.
This deprivation is the breeding ground for racism, national chauvinism, misogyny and antigay bigotry which are still in place decades after the collapse of the empires (excepting the American empire). That not excuse bigots like archbishop Akinola of Nigeria, Robert Mugabe, dictator of Zimbabwe, the Iranian mullahs, the Chinese Stalinists or George Bush and his lapdogs, Blair and Brown.
While antigay bigotry in the post colonial nations is usually only an irritant for most of us in the US and EU, it imperils the lives of their many victims in Africa, Jamaica, Iraq, etc. Pogroms and mass murder are a distinct worry for them and a reality in Iraq. (The exception is the Jamaican reggae artists who promote murder, they’re probably responsible for some of the beatings and murders in the US and EU. But that’s the fault of those governments, which refuse to protect gay and lesbian citizens by suppressing these provocateurs.)
The notion that antigay bigotry is an all encompassing aspect of African American culture is racist and simply not true. Antigay bigotry came to North American with European colonization and it’s infected all layers of the American populace.
What’s notable is that politically inspired initiative to encourage antigay bigotry in churches of all flavors is beginning to stall. This political scheme is usually associated with the Repugnant party, although the Deceitocrats also utilize it.
This story has been unfolding since Bill Clinton and his bigot allies in both parties rammed DOMA and DADT through Congress to appeal to bigot churches.
Bush IS as stupid as he looks but his brain, Karl Rove seized the opportunity this gave them to use Clintons laws to solicit the collusion of bigot churches and get bigot votes, and sweetened the pot with bribes, in the form of handouts to ‘faith (read superstitious-bigot) based’ groups.
First among these were the roman catholic cult, the southern baptists, aka KKK, and the lds church. Then the Republicans, guided by Bushbrain Rove, went after susceptible African-American churches, Latino evangelistas, Jewish ultra-orthodox leaders, and the neo-fascist Slavic immigrant churches.
These bigot groups were rewarded for their work during the 2004 campaign in February of 2006 when Bush put his signature on a law giving 500 million dollars to superstition-based groups who oppose same-sex marriage. That money has undoubtedly paid for lots and lots of altar boys, mansions, fast cars, prostitutes and mistresses.
The Reverend Kenneth Samuel, a Georgia pastor and NAACP official said many African American pastors oppose gay marriage because they’ve been “bought out” with faith-based initiative money. He’s right on the money and far more representative of leaders of African American groups than the hustlers and shills hired by the Republicans who recirculate the Democrats antigay program.
If you’re interested you can check out
http://www.mask.org.za/ an excellent cite that covers Africa wide GLBT news
http://www.gaymiddleeast.com/
Or check out books by noted West Indian author and Pan-Africanist C.L.R. James who wrote The Black Jacobins, Toussaint L’Ouverture and the San Domingo Revolution (1938), American Civilisation (1949) and Nkrumah and the Ghana Revolution (1977).
By the way Tallskin, it asshole, not arsehole, asshole. When are you people going to learn to speak English.
Tallskin
No Bill, in the UK it is Arsehole.
You should practice how to speak proper, you Arsewipe.
Tallskin
arse Look up arse at Dictionary.com
“buttocks,” O.E. ærs “tail, rump,” from P.Gmc. *arsoz (cf. O.N. ars, M.Du. ærs, Ger. Arsch “buttock”), cognate with Gk. orros “tail, rump, base of the spine,” Hittite arrash, Arm. or “buttock,” O.Ir. err “tail.” Arse-hole first attested c.1400 as arce-hoole. Arsy-versy “backside foremost” first attested 1539.
ass (2) Look up ass at Dictionary.com
slang for “backside,” first attested 1860 in nautical slang, in popular use from 1930; from Amer.Eng. pronunciation of arse (q.v.). The loss of -r- before -s- attested in several other words (e.g. burst/bust, curse/cuss, horse/hoss, barse/bass). Indirect evidence of the change from arse to ass can be traced to 1785 (in euphemistic avoidance of ass “donkey” by polite speakers) and perhaps to Shakespeare, if Nick Bottom transformed into a donkey in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” (1594) is the word-play some think it is. Meaning “woman regarded as a sexual object” is from 1942. Asshole first attested 1935.