QUEERTY SELECTS — Lady bisexuality ruled the 90s. So why is dude bisexuality seemingly ruling the 2000s? Sex columnist Rachel Kramer Bussel explores bromances, man dates, man crushes, and all sorts of guy-on-guy affection that isn’t necessarily gay. Does it mean anything that Jimmy Kimmel and Ben Affleck can create a music video about anal sexing each other — and it’s considered funny, not grotesque? That I Love You Man and this summer’s Humpday (about two dudes who make porn together) are fare for the cineplex — and not the adult cineplex? Queerty readers have already shared their thoughts on bisexual guys (and whether they even exist). But is the pop culture phenomenon reflective of actual sex culture? [The Daily Beast] (Photo: BiMaxx)
Mickey's mouse :P
my boyfriend is bisexual…And honestly he’s the sweetest guy, but i’m not going to go into the debate of whether or not bisexuality exists because for some it really is, and for others it’s a stepping stone into gay life.
nikko
I love bisexual guys. I wish I was more bi . I dislike both gay/straight extremes.
alan brickman
Sexuality is more fluid than just straight or gay….
AlanInSLC
everyone is bisexual to a degree. It just depends on how well you connect to another person. The sex of your partner/s just dictates how you pleasure each other. My opinion
AJ
Uh oh…here comes Joey.
TANK
Nah, not everyone’s bisexual. Some people are. That’s not even something joey would say. You dislike both extremes, nikko? LOL! I dislike you, and I don’t even know you. I just dislike you because I define you by that witless comment.
Alec
@AJ: The bisexuals are taking over the world! Destroying and undermining the gay rights movement!
Those who protest must not mind the gay for pay phenomenon, however, if sales figures are any indication…
Jamie
I get so weary of the old “everyone’s bi” line, because the implication is that anyone who isn’t bi (i.e. everyone who identifies as straight or gay) is somehow in denial or repressed, or that there’s something unhealthy about one-way-only orientation.
And, honestly, to ask whether or not bisexual men even exist is to ask an incredibly inane question. Of course they do – duh.
Sampson
Of course bisexuality exists; I think to deny it is arrogant and patronising. I don’t believe that everyone is bisexual, but I think that a lot of people would try it in the right situation.
I agree with Nikko: I wish I was bi. I’m frustrated being strictly gay. I’m all about the bi guys and have found out that some of my gay friends are bi.
Mark
@Sampson:
How are some of your “gay” friends “bi”? That’s a contradictory statement.
I agree with Jamie completely on this one. Bi people certainly do exist, but most people are not bi, and to say that somehow people who identify as “gay” or “straight” are just closet bisexuals, and could, in the “right situation”, have sex with the same/opposite gender is just out of touch. I’m a 56 year old gay man, and not once in my life have I ever found myself attracted to a woman or done anything with a woman.
Mark
@Sampson:
And Sampson, you shouldn’t be “frustrated” about being strictly gay. What’s wrong with it?
SteamPunk
“Bisexual Guys Are So In Right Now”
We are???
Then why do I still get the lines from gay guys that I’m sexually greedy (despite that I can count the people I’ve slept with on one hand with fingers to spare) and the line from straight women that I’m prone to adultery (though I’ve never cheated in my life)?
rogue dandelion
bisexuality is a phenomenon that probably exists, at what frequency we may never know. All I can say is that I am not the least bit interested in girls-I don’t think i am even a little bit bisexual.
The examples listed in the article had little to with sexuality, bisexuality even less so. Bisexual a trend among men? shouldn’t there be at least one example of this that isn’t a comedy routine?
Michael W.
@SteamPunk: You can count the number of people you slept with on one hand? Dude, unless you’re a teenager or something, you need to get out there and fuck.
Mike in MO
I’m bi, I’m greedy, and there’s no way I’m staying monogamous. Eat me.
In my experience, most guys don’t care as long as we’re getting bizzy; but girls run the other way. Maybe it’s the midwest.
Graham
I think being bi is getting trendy–not just in the “I kissed a girl and I liked it Katy-Perry way–but in the “gender is socially constructed so I don’t pay any attention to it” way. I still like boys almost exclusively…I guess that makes me unfashionable.
Alec
Female bisexuality was popular largely as an appeal to straight men (at least, that’s how I interpreted the Cruel Intentions makeout session at the time). The examples cited in this post, by contrast, are comedies that aren’t really about male bisexuality or homosexuality at all, but poking fun at male sexual acts.
I haven’t really noticed a trend.
hardmannyc
Woody Allen said being bi doubled your chances of getting a date on Saturday night.
Mark in Colorado
To those here who don’t like being “strictly gay” (a rather redundant phrase)–no one is holding a gun to your head. If you really want to be with a female, then all you need to do is start looking for or creating “heterosexual opportunities”. Someone like Alec might be able to help you through your unease (and I’m not trying to be flippant towards you Alec) regarding this “concept”. A male doing gay sex whether for pay or not should be a turn on for a gay man–it would only make sense.
TANK
Angry bisexualists! ha ha ha ha ha….they’re all over the place. “Sexuality’s fluid! FLUID!” NO, water’s fluid.
Jared
@SteamPunk:
Definately agree–where is this magical land where bi guys are accepted? ‘Cause I’d love to hang there.
Saying that bi guys are “in” because of a few movies coming out is like saying that it’s now hip to put on a pair of tights and fight crime because of the amount of super-hero movies that have been coming out over the past few years.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@AJ:
Oh please leave Joey alone!
Dude he actually BELIEVES in bisexuality, that was he’s whole point! Why do Gay guys say they are Gay when they are attracted to women!
Damn, what is it with you people? Yeah, he was extreme but to me it was only because he felt Bi’s shouldn’t be part of the Gay fight etc..
@Sampson:
Self hate…sad 🙁
@Mike in MO:
It’s the midwest! TRUST! In the Uk…girls LOVE it!
@hardmannyc:
Of course it does!
@Graham:
Again, it is. Their was a huge article in one of the mainstream women mags in the UK that said girls were really into male porn! Go grrrrlz!
@AlanInSLC:
Nope.
But I think a larger majority of people are Bisexual that don’t know for sure…..esp the one’s who live in towns/rural communities were you are indoctrinated to feel and think a certain way..
@Mark:
He wants to be attracted to women. Each to their own. He must like the way they look but not be attracted.
Me like chest. Strong arms. And d*ck. Only. 🙂
BrianZ
Straight, bi, gay, on the bi-now gay-later plan … who cares? People are so wrapped up in labeling everything.
Perhaps it isn’t that bisexuality is any more vogue. Rather that society in general is more open to and accepting of non-heterosexual content, if not more accepting of non-heterosexual people? I think so.
Gianpiero
“ruling the 2000s?” Really?? Sez who?
TANK
Labels are so confining because they express limitations, instead of discrete meanings (which are also limitations…meaningfulness is a limitation of some sort, I guess)…and limitations of any kind are opppressive…like…not being able to fly without the aid of a plane or anything (I call this flightless). I feel oppressed because I’m “flightless”; just another barrier, another…goddamn limitation imposed on me by a goddamn friekin’ label. It’s all created by the man to oppress…in reality, there’s no such thing as anything.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Jared:
London!
BrianZ
Oh and for a hot second I thought the tranny in the picture associated with the article was Ann Coulter 😉
Liz
I think it does speak to current sexual culture. It is becoming far less of social suicide move as a simple understanding of social/sexual self. It’s no longer such a crime to love someone regardless of gender, gender-identity, or orientation. Being a bisexual female, I get looked at as a straight guy’s wet dream, which can be demeaning and truly devalue my sexuality. To say nothing of the notion that all girls just ‘experiment’ with bisexuality as a college thing or other such nonsense. But for men it has been far harder in the past to reconcile feelings for other men while still being attracted to women, let alone be accepted readily in society (ie. people thinking they are just closeted gay men, while bi girls are just ‘experimenting’). huzzah for bisexual men! Rejoice in who you are and who you love!
Jared
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s):
Hmm…stay in the States and be riddiculed for my orientation, or go to London, where I’d probably be beaten by London cops for looking at CCTV cameras. So many options!
😛
alan brickman
Someone sounds crazy…..
Sampson
Sorry to those who think wishing I was bi means I hate myself. I love being into men and would never not want to be into them. I would, however, also like to be into women. Wishing I had more sexual fluidity doesn’t mean I hate myself or my sexuality.
And to the person who asked about my gay friends being bi: my friends are predominantly gay and generally identify as such but have had occasional relationships with women. I trust what they say when they identify themselves as gay and accept that their behaviour suggests bisexuality (even if only to a limited degree). I think we get hung up on the idea of straight guys actually being bi (when they still identify as straight) that we forget that gay guys can do so as well.
Alec
@Mark in Colorado: A male doing gay sex whether for pay or not should be a turn on for a gay man–it would only make sense.
But then they should celebrate male bisexuality, no? However one defines it?
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Jared:
Oh shit. I know! Horrible isn’t it? You know what? Serves the UK right.
But I’m not saying it’s right but London or shall I say the UK will ignore this and you could still party like it’s 1999.
I don’t like it so don’t misread it, I’ve posting about the guy who got killed and my friends were at the march…
F*cking assholes.
The police have NOTHING to do with what most people feel…
🙁
Mark in Colorado
@Liz: Good insight.
I believe that there are men who identify as gay who are actually latent bisexuals and have yet to go through their “final” coming out, and may never do so for whatever reason. Being gay for them is a transitional phase.
I would add that when statements such as “everyone is bisexual” or its many variations are made, gay men who are exclusively homosexual are demeaned and their sexuality is devalued too.
Sampson
@Mark in Colorado: I agree, or rather I remember feeling that somehow I wasn’t quite right because my sexuality isn’t fluid. This idea that sexuality is definitely fluid gained great traction among certain writers during the 1990s. My sexuality is about as fixed as I can imagine anyone’s to be.
Jake
@AlanInSLC: “everyone is bisexual to a degree.”
Well, mine must be to a negative degree because I have NEVER been the least bit attracted to the female body. I have never had sex with a woman and I can remember back as far as age five being attracted to the male body WAY before I even knew what gay was. Yes, I can appreciate a nice looking female, I have several as friends but they do nothing for me sexually.
Mark in Colorado
@Alec: Well, I know what you’re getting at 😉
However, simply watching the “gay-for-pay” guy does not by extension a celebration of bisexuality make. The act being watched is a homosexual act. The “gay-for-pay” guy may not be known to be so by the viewer anyway, although that bit of information would be irrelevant. It is a visual homosexual fantasy.
If one wants to “celebrate bisexuality” in this manner, then one would want to be watching a bisexual scene.
Alec
The “gay-for-pay” guy may not be known to be so by the viewer anyway, although that bit of information would be irrelevant. It is a visual homosexual fantasy.
Yeah, but part of the fantasy seems to be that these guys are “straight” but willing to have sex with men. And I mean, there is tons of that out there. Right down to “straight acting” as a kind of virtue, which is not so subtle.
Pragmatist
@Graham: I think bisexual people and bisexual characters are getting more attention in the mainstream media, but bisexuality itself is not. There are plenty of characters in mainstream TV series and movies who are clearly bisexual, but the writers (for whatever reason) adhere to the false gay/lesbian vs. straight dichotomy when it comes to describing them.
Just two miscellaneous examples that come to mind (I’ve observed many others, but am too lazy to think of them). (1) Bree’s son in Desperate Housewives. He’s given every indication of enjoying the company of both boys and girls, but strangely the show just decided to call him gay. (2) Sean Wing’s character in Ten Inch Hero is actually shown, on screen, having rollicking good sex with Danneel Harris. But once it’s realized that he also has the hots for his male roommate, he’s just classified as gay.
This is called bisexual erasure by people who are academic enough to use such terms. 🙂
Mark in Colorado
@Alec: The key unspoken variable in all this is of course money. Would they still be “willing” to have sex with other men if money were not involved? Now, to be annoyingly consistent, I would classify these males as bisexual, because whether they will kiss or not, if they can get it hard for another guy and carry that to orgasm, without the aid of het porn in the background or being fluffed, then they are naturally physiologically responding sexually to the same-sex. That much is being confirmed through visual observation (or at least assumed to be so). I find the “straight-acting” behavior repulsive and unattractive–but to each their own.
sal
well funny story i guess,one of my “bi’ friends came out as gay a couple days ago..
Mark in Colorado
@Pragmatist: I think that is a real shame. In the examples you cite they should not have “gaywashed” those characters. Believe it or not, this gay man wants bisexuals to be treated with the same respect that I as a gay man would like to be afforded. Bisexuals should not be “erased” for the sake of convenience.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Pragmatist:
Ohh..
Well to be fair, it is scary to the ‘average hetero male/female’ so you can see why mainstream media won’t fix everyone in those boxes..
Good point!
TANK
@Mark in Colorado:
SO is this your passive aggressive way of saying that alec’s bisexual again, mark?
The gay for pay phenomenon=internalized homophobia=self loathing.
The Gay Numbers
@TANK: What? You are not into queer-theory, make-it-up-as-you-go language that means nothing to anyone but you? How dare you be so oppressive by requiring language that communicates to others. Fascist!
TANK
That’s right. I write to be understood AND ridiculed.
The Gay Numbers
@Mark in Colorado: Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. It’s a bizare argument to say that because someone will do something for money that means that’s who they are. It’s like saying actors who play gay are gay or that actors who play straight are straight. It’s the reason why so many actors would not take on gay roles or gay actors have a hard time finding work: People who confuse illusion with reality. I have no idea whether these people are bi or not in the porn movies, but I do know the standard can not be the act alone since money gets people to do things they would not ordinarily do. We had this game in college- what would you do for money? You would be surprised what people would do. Someone would ask- would you chop off an arm for 10 mil? Most would say no, but if you word it just right or offer the right amount of money- you would get some people to say yes. Now, does that mean these same people would just chop off an arm if they were doing it for free? By your definition the answer must be yes to remain consistent since they were willing to do it for money.
The Gay Numbers
@TANK: Well, I am a writer. Without a combination of ridicule and praise, I have not communicated anything interesting.
Mark in Colorado
@TANK: No, Tank. I am reiterating an idea that Alec put forth which might be helpful to those that aren’t happy being strictly “gay”. Empirically, it worked for Alec, who knows, maybe it would work for them? I also believe Alec loves himself just fine. I sense no self-loathing whatsoever nor internalized homophobia.
TANK
I think alec’s enamored of himself. I don’t think he’s the least bit self loathing, so that addressed the apparent confusion…you’re operating under…or were.
You think alec’s bisexual. You accused him of it before, and this is just more the of the same–at least that’s how it looks, papi…and who’s happy being gay? WHo’s happy being straight? It’s not a draw, but it’s not a guarantee either way. Head start…but that doesn’t mean you’ll win the race.
Pragmatist
@Mark in Colorado: I don’t know if getting hard and doing the act on camera proves they’re bisexual or gay. At least not if you define bisexual/gay in terms of attraction. (If you define those terms by behavior, which many do, you’ve proved it, but the conclusion is tautological.)
I don’t know how I feel about that precise point. I suppose it’s conceivable that an actor could have no attraction to his screen-mate, but could find the situation so subversive/edgy that the situation is erotic for him. (“Woah! I’m having sex for money — with a guy!”) This, of course, leads me to a discussion of how one’s sexuality is the product of numerous factors, can be quite fluid, etc. (I have no interest in retreading that subject on this forum, though.)
In practice, I think most “gay for pay” actors are bi or gay because they look like they’re experienced at it, and they look like they enjoy it. You might attribute that to acting, but I’ve never seen much evidence of acting skill in porn performers… Have you? 🙂
The Gay Numbers
@Pragmatist: The key word is acting. Not sure why people think actors are really being what they are portraying. Do you really believe that people are in love in a romantic comedy? Do you think Sean Penn really had an attraction for James Franco? Do you think Neil Patrick Harris or TR Knight are really into the women they kiss on their respective shows? As for the penis, erections and ejaculations are a mechanical action. It’s involuntary. It’s the same reason why men and women can be raped while reaching orgasm. In both cases, the orgasm is the bodies involuntary response to stimuli. The same is true for a porn star.
Mark in Colorado
@The Gay Numbers: I would be in full agreement with you except that sexuality is such a visceral if not foundational part of who we are. My wording may not have been as proper as I had intended. I was speaking to men who self-identify as straight who have sex with other men in a pornographic film who need no assistance to perform to orgasm with another man. If money were not involved, I would argue that they would be able to perform with another man in this way, thus yes I would classify them as bisexual. So what? Would they actually do so if money were not involved? It doesn’t matter. They’ve demonstrated they can and would.
When I’ve talked about 100% exclusivity I am talking about 100% exclusive: sexually, emotionally, and mentally (fantasy, etc.) all the time after full self-identification as one or another sexual orientation. This being the case of course naturally without having to really think about it.
The word “bisexual” isn’t a dirty word. So what if I would refer, classify, categorize or label them as bisexual? Why would it be such a bad thing to be considered bisexual if one is not 100% exclusive in all aspects of one’s sexual orientation?
Pragmatist
@The Gay Numbers: Right. If porn performers had any degree of acting ability, I would take that as the explanation. But almost none do. In fact, most are brain-dead. So if they look like they know how to give oral sex, and if they look like they’re having a good time with it, they probably do, and they probably are.
Mark in Colorado
@The Gay Numbers: Yes acting is a fantasy. I’m addressing pornographic film acting. I believe there is a difference between that and a romantic situation in a mainstream film.
Not all of us would get off on a strong wind and were not all just these mechanical things.
I could promise you that no amount of money or other desirable inducement could get me to perform sexually in a way that wasn’t congruent with my sexuality/sexual orientation. I’d starve to death first. Luckily I have an education and a skilled background to prevent such a horrible either or turn of events.
Max the Communist
Does anyone remember that rainbow sticker that says “Celebrate Diversity”? Does anybody believe in that anymore or is some diversity just too diverse for some people?
Really. The gay and lesbian denial of fluid sexuality enrages me and bisexuals touting “Everybody is bisexual” fill me with loathing, embarrassment and disgust. 60 years after the Kinsey reports and people are still just as stupid as ever!
Finally, the unequivocal equation of bisexuality with “gay for pay” throughout this thread makes me grossly ill. I am not a prostitute or a porn star. I am a human being. Shit, prostitutes and porn stars are human beings–and they all have their own sexualities off-camera and off work and SOME OF THEM ARE REALLY BI. Just like some accountants or some truck drivers or some dentists or SOME OF EVERY FUCKING GROUP IN EVERY FUCKING PLACE ON THE FUCKING PLANET ARE BI. And we’ll be bi when everybody thinks we’re trendy and we’ll be bi when everybody hates us.
So I’ll make you a deal. You gays stop being the Mahmoud Ahmadinejads of bisexuality and I promise to smack upside the head any know-it-all bi who denies your existence.
Jesus! It’s enough to give one an aneurism.
TANK
@Mark in Colorado:
What if it was like a saw thing, ya know? Like in the movie saw…where you had to have sex with a woman or something bad would happen to you or someone you cared about. What then, huh? Would you take the plunge?
Mike in MO
@ 22: I need to get me to UK! I wish I could get looked at as a straight gal’s wet dream…
Mark in Colorado
@TANK: I knew someone would pose the sex with a woman ultimatum hypothesis. Why am I not surprised you are the one to do it?! 🙂
Okay, judge me as you like.
Regarding this specific ultimatim: The answer is NO. Not just because I know that I couldn’t but because I would see it as a form of “soul” rape (I’m an atheist too, I just can’t think of a more precise word, I suppose “energy” rape would work too), something I could never get back and would probably end up commiting suicide over if I were forced to live with the memory of the experience.
My husband of 24 years knows how I feel about this so he knows that he would be a gonner (sp?).
Go ahead and hate on me now. I’m a big boy.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@The Gay Numbers:
“Do you think Sean Penn really had an attraction for James Franco?”
Uh huh.
Kid A
I’m bi and I would never say that “everyone is bisexual,” in fact I’ve only heard straight people say it. Which boggles the mind since they identify as straight. I honestly think that they’re just saying it to seem “down” with it in front of me.
So if anyone tells you that “everyone is bi” please don’t think this represents the totalitarian view of all bisexuals.
I’m too tired to type more, but here’s a link to my previous thoughts on the matter:
http://www.queerty.com/are-bisexual-guys-real-20090407/#comment-144232
TANK
@Mark in Colorado:
C’mon, it a joke. This whole thread’s ridonkulous. And now…who’s greedy? WHO’S GREEDY? YOu’re going to let innocent people die rather than play a little slap and tickle with the yellow fin? Oy…wrong description….
Sanyway, suicide? Really?! That’s pretty melodramatic, huh?
….peepee vagina! That’s all that comes to mind…when confronted by the content and SUBSTANCE of this thread.
The Gay Numbers
@Pragmatist: You confuse your projection as to whether they are acting. Acting does not mean someone is an Oscar performing actor. If that were the standard, we would never be able to watch most programs. It simply means here the ability to pretend to be into something that one is not. From their, the audience projects their own desires. That’s all porn is anyway- projection of fantasy.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Mark in Colorado:
Oh please ignore!
Just think of a man! Close your eyes. Don’t touch the breasts…or down there…
Stick penis in hole…you should be fine!
Like I’ve said, not saying i’m hot but have met many beautiful women…were you can kinda kid yourself of physical attraction….but when it comes to it..soft.. 🙁
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Milk was the first time I found James Franco attractive. I certainly would love to test the “sexual fluidity” theory with him, but that’s another story for a six pack of beer and another time. He’s also kind of hot in the photos for Howl. I’ll stop drooling now.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@TANK:
When I grow up…
I want you to be my therapist!!
Will you??
Pleeeease?
Pweety pleeease?
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@The Gay Numbers:
Oh dude he’s GAY.
I’m not just saying that cause he looks like ALL my ex (white) boyfriends…
What can I say, I have a thing for cute Jewish/Italian white guys who are geeks or really dark skinned black men who are tall in posture and presence..
Swoon.
Still somethings up about Franco…in a good way!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Kid A:
Ah, I read your post and it was really heartfelt.
Thing is life is give and take with a huge dose of empathy. It’s not personal. The fact is you can choose and although it’s really thoughtful of you to support gays who struggle and can’t get it up with a women to have kids or seem societal normal, you can understand the anger/frustration or maybe good ol jealousy!
Now hold up peeps who are happing being gay, I’m just being generalistic.
Look you’re in a really good relationship with someone you love and care about.
Don’t waste your time or get frustrated with dogmatic folks! 🙂
But I will say something, Bisexuals seem to make a bigger drama out of relationships and their situation. Please like YOU said, you cna get married and have kids…and you prob will…so YOU know there is no drama with being Bi..
So don’t patronise other gays who don’t get the jitters for female body types..you DON’T understand how it feels to ONLY like men. Simple.
Oh you liked them at school…and girls…poor you! You will never understand that feeling of alienation and confusion that comes with the realisation that you are ONLY attracted to men.
You won’t.
That’s all. And it’s condenscending that any Bi guy or girl has the audacity to pretend they like they understand, when all they feel is
‘oh, I like both sexes…who should I choose? Does Mum need to know? Well, only if I like a guy! But lemme test the waters..’
Please.
The Gay Numbers
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): We have similar taste in white guys. For me, it’s geeks, especially Mediteranean or Jewish. Not to thin. No to muscular. Just right.
Our tastes differ regarding men of color. For me it’s medium to light in color, but still geeky.
I think you are, however, projecting wishful desires onto Franco. Nothing about him says gay to me, but what the hell do I know- my gaydar sucks. He’s cute. So I will project along with you.
Pragmatist
@The Gay Numbers: No, I’m not confusing anything. The acting blows. The standard isn’t an Oscar-calibre performance, but the basic level of acting ability necessary to create an illusion and suspend disbelief. Almost no porn “actors” can do that.
This works in reverse, too, of course. How many times have you heard some guy say, “Oh baby, yeah, give it to me, yeah (yawn).” He’s “acting” as though he were into the sex, but it’s quite transparent that he isn’t. Because he’s not really an actor.
You suggested that I’m projecting my desires when I conclude that certain “G4P” performers are probably bi/gay. Actually, it’s quite the opposite. If a performer actually says he’s straight, I’d prefer to indulge that statement (if I can) because I think it’s dirty and hot that he’d be doing it just for money. Unfortunately, most of the time I’m pretty sure he’s doing it in his spare time, too, so that particular fantasy doesn’t work out.
The Gay Numbers
@Pragmatist: Fair points. I don’t believe most of these guys are straight either or even bi. But I don’t assume that they all are lying. Just most. This is the case with bisexuality in general. Not that they are lying. But the degree to which its equally interested in both genders. I believe it exists, but not to the degree that people claim. I think people are heavily weighted to straight or gay and although they may have a shade of bisexuality. Some are so heavily weighted that it renders the concept meaningless to say someone is bi. Only a very few are able to say they are truly interested in both genders equally as strong or close enough to equal that I take it seriously to be the case. I met a guy like that. He eventually married a woman, but made it clear that it was equally as likely he could have ended up with a man. He made this clear to her too. What made me really believe what that he was clear to everyone about that. He felt no cultural pressure to conform one way or the other. Therefore, I could see truly who he was. It was not about conformity or non-conformity. It was just being honest and clear.
Kid A
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Thanks John for your response! I’d like to respond to a few things and clear up some possible misinterpretation (which is more likely than not a fault of my writing!)
You say that bisexuals make more drama out of their relationships. I acknowledge that more drama may be perceived. To relate it to a gay concept, many straight people see normal gay affection as “flaunting it” while a straight couple doing the same thing would seem commonplace. I would contend that a straight or gay person having relationship issues would be seen as normal, whereas a bi person would be seen as “flaunting” their relationship issues. I have an acquaintance who has cheated on her boyfriend with 5 different guys, and he doesn’t know. I have a friend who has been on- and off-again with her girlfriend for a year. And every week I hear about it. Trust me, gays and straights make enough drama that I am certainly no contender.
Also, I’d like to say that while I’m in what appears to be an average “straight” relationship, it is certainly chock full of drama 🙂
I re-read my post and cannot see any points where I was patronizing to gays for not being attracted to the opposite sex. If there’s part you could specifically point out, I’d love to understand what you mean, but I don’t think I’d have the audacity to ridicule anyone for their turn-ons.
“Oh you liked them at school…and girls…poor you! You will never understand that feeling of alienation and confusion that comes with the realisation that you are ONLY attracted to men.”
Oh wait were we talking about being patronizing? 😉 I kid, but you’re right about me never having 100% gay or straight feelings, but I think that bisexuality brings its own alienation and confusion that is comparable to gayness. I know myself and many other bi people have envied gay and straight people for having a “place.” The fact that mainstream gay media runs articles questioning the validity of bisexuality is a testament to the troubles of self-acceptance and coming out for bisexual youth.
“That’s all. And it’s condenscending that any Bi guy or girl has the audacity to pretend they like they understand, when all they feel is ‘oh, I like both sexes…who should I choose? Does Mum need to know? Well, only if I like a guy! But lemme test the waters..’ Please.”
I never pretended to know EXACTLY what it’s like to be gay. But I do believe that bisexuals have more in common with gays than straights. In the eyes of middle America, if you’re not straight, then you are “other.” Society gives one, gay or bi, a sense of “queerness.” I still have to fight for my rights, just as you do. I will likely never assemble a huge crowd on the steps of City Hall, but if my rights to assemble and petition were taken away, I’d sure as hell fight to get them back. In the same way, I will likely never marry another man, but I’m fighting for the right to anyway. Not to mention ENDA and DADT, and many other legal and societal issues that affect bisexuals as well.
Finally, I take issue with your characterization (from a gay perspective) of bisexuality as “oh, I like both sexes…who should I choose? Does Mum need to know? Well, only if I like a guy! But lemme test the waters..”
That is true for some, but it’s as erroneous as me (from a bi perspective) saying “oh I like one sex! how simple this makes life! Mom won’t care but does dad need to know? Well only if I like a guy!”
I think we both know it’s not that simple to be gay, and not that simple to be bi. (Hell, it’s not that simple for straight people! Adolescence is a confusing time for all.)
Why do I feel it’s unfair? Because I am not “passing.” I could have. I have to say this in every post because it’s brought up everytime. I’m fundamentally queer. I came out to my parents, because they should know who I am. I come out to strangers nearly every day, because I am honest with myself and others. And I am not alone. There are bi people just like me who are open and out.
I give more credit to the honest bisexual than the bi person who identifies as “gay” just to fit somewhere. I very much appreciate your response John, and I’ve enjoyed reading your posts elsewhere on Queerty. But I think that fakers of all orientations are more deserving of accusations of condescension and being patronizing.
Adam Sank
I believe bisexuality exists, but in a way that is entirely unique to the bisexual in question. In other words, I don’t think there’s anyone out there who, under any given circumstance, would be exactly 50% as likely to go home from a bar with a man as s/he would with a woman.
I had a bisexual friend in college named Judith. “I have love affairs with women,” she once explained, “but I fuck guys.”
In “Torch Song Trilogy,” Harvey Fierstein’s Arnold says, “I’d like to see a bisexual who lived with his boyfriend and then saw his girlfriend on the sly.”
My point is, we’re all wired with the capacity to love and/or have sex with just about anyone or anything. But it’s what we most need and how we identify ourselves that defines what we are.
Mark in Colorado
@The Gay Numbers: I take it then that you view bisexual to be an equal attraction to both genders?
Adam Sank
No, quite the opposite. I’m saying that that’s how the notion of bisexuality is usually framed in our sexually ignorant culture: That if you’re bisexual, you’re always equally attracted to both sexes at the same time — that it’s the sexual equivalent of being ambidextrous.
In fact, I believe it’s more complicated than that, and that bisexual people want and need different things at different times, and that their attraction to both sexes is both separate and unequal.
Mark in Colorado (aka Mark from the other comment thread)
@Adam Sank: I was actually asking the question of @The Gay Numbers. But I appreciate your answer. While I don’t agree at all with your view, “My point is, we’re all wired with the capacity to love and/or have sex with just about anyone or anything. But it’s what we most need and how we identify ourselves that defines what we are” [emphasis mine], I do share your view that bisexual encompasses a range far more expansive than that of the black and white dichotomy of only gay or straight.
rapport
I’m a bisexual guy, and I think that this is the GREATEST DISCUSSION EVER.
Jet
Jesus, just read Mark Simpson and Gore Vidal and get over it.
http://www.marksimpson.com/blog/2006/04/26/curiouser-and-curiouser-the-strange-disappearance-of-male-bisexuality/
Why is it so hard to understand that “bi-for-now” and genuine male bisexuality both exist? Of course the existence of Katy Perry douches like that Charles Forman in the Beast article do not help the bisexual cause. But that isn’t bi folks’ fault. Why do some gay and straight people think that others have a responsibility to make life less complicated for them?
I just find it weird that even in the backwater Christian college I went to, I saw a greater variety of sexual experience than a lot of monosexuals seem willing to admit exists.
Pragmatist
@Adam Sank: Hi, Adam. You wrote: “In ‘Torch Song Trilogy,’ Harvey Fierstein’s Arnold says, ‘I’d like to see a bisexual who lived with his boyfriend and then saw his girlfriend on the sly.'”
Been there, done that, approximately. We didn’t live together, but we were officially boyfriends. Had a rule that allowed us both to kiss other people. I definitely took advantage of that rule with girls!
Pragmatist
@Pragmatist: I suppose it doesn’t count because it wasn’t “on the sly,” though, and because the guy didn’t mind. Anyway, I agree with your basic idea — everyone’s different.
getreal
Just because a gay man can induce himself into sex with a woman does not mean he is bisexual. I think a lot of people who identify as bisexual are people who are trying to hold onto heterosexual privilege. I used to have a neighbor who identified as bisexual and he confessed he could only have sex with women if he fantasized about men. To me he is not a bisexual but a semi closeted gay man. Few well adjusted women want anything to do with bisexual men although I think some gay men find them appealing. Maybe I’m totally off base. Thoughts?
The Gay Numbers
@Mark in Colorado: I view it as more complicated, but ultimately look first for clarity. Someone who tells me that he’s been attracted to women is still bisexual even if its not a lot of women but someone who says I’ve had one girilfriend in the past and I forced myself to do it with her is probably not bisexual. Just like someone who tells me they experiemented with their sexuality in the past, but are 99 percent into women is probably not a bisexual. By the same token- while the middle is not as easy to define, the poles are. If someone says theya re gay, and they are regularly having sex with women- they aren’t gay. Whereas if someone says they are straight, and they are going out trolling for men on a regularl basis, then they aren’t straight. The point is that there is more wiggle room int he middle than at the edges. My guess is that is why some people like it. But by the same token, my guess is also that it can lead to confusion if one really is not bisexual. Th emore you become more attracted to one gender over the other is the degree to which I question bisexuality. Having sex with one girlfriend when you were in the process of addressing your sexuality is not bisexuaulity. I don’tknow how to make it anymore clear.
Mark in Colorado
Mark Simpson is a self-hating prick who pines for the days when gay men had to hide their homosexuality and hook-up in bathrooms.
As for Gore Vidal, well, I wouldn’t have felt bad at all if that now deceased anti-gay bigot William F. Buckley had punched Vidal in the face.
Mark in Colorado
@The Gay Numbers: Thank you. Your view on the matter is very clear. I promise not to bother you with a question like that ever again.
The Gay Numbers
@Mark in Colorado: Okaaay.
michael
All that is important is for one to know ones self. Anybody elses opinion of my sexuality is none of my business. Thos who are secure in themselves usually don’t spend a lot of time worrying about what others think about them. Because when other people take issue with you they are actually just insecure with themselves.
Bobby in Texas
Being a BI Guy, I must say that it is not always as fun or as easy as most have posted here. My gay friends swear that I only claim to be bi, because I am scared to admit I am gay. My straight friends swear I am gay, my only medium of commonality is that of other truly bi men that really understand where I come from. Not to mention being in the Military for (14 years in June) has also complicated parts of my life. On the other hand being in the Military and bi has opened a lot of opportunities for me and others. I have found that guys and girls that have in some way shape or form found out about me…find comfort in being able to tell me about experiences they have had, thoughts they have had about their husbands or boyfriends, and some have even had their first man on man experiences with me. Some of these experiences have been the best to me. The hardest person for me to talk with was my mother, and when I did tell her, her final question to me was who do I see myself with in the future, a man or a women. I told my mother I will be with whom, makes me happy. (This is my first post on here..please be gently)
The Gay Numbers
@Bobby in Texas: You seem like a well grounded guy.
Pragmatist
@getreal: “Few well adjusted women want anything to do with bisexual men although I think some gay men find them appealing. Maybe I’m totally off base. Thoughts?”
I’ll tell you my thoughts: Yeah, you’re totally off base. That was an offensive, overbroad, and flatly inaccurate statement.
Many “well adjusted” women have no problem dating bisexual guys, and many actively like it (just as many men like having bisexual girlfriends). And there are a whole lot of bisexual women out there, too; most, in my experience, actually prefer to date bi men. In general, if you encounter an intelligent, self-sufficient, open-minded woman, she probably won’t have any lasting qualms about your orientation. It’s really only the clingy romantic comedy ninnies who freak out over it.
Sampson
@Bobby in Texas: Send me a pic, you sound lovely. Really. You’ll need to move to the UK, but I’d make you a great boyfriend.
Rowen
When I meet a guy who is bisexual, and I’m interested in him, I tend to get one of two gut reactions. (Notice I’m saying gut reaction. This is that same crazy gut reaction I get that turns my boss asking to see me into “OMG I’m gonna get fired and then I won’t find a job and then I won’t pay my rent and then I’ll be turning tricks on the street for crack!!!” . . . so I tend to not pay it much attention. Anyway.)
The first one is that I shouldn’t even deal with him. He’s obviously just going to use me and then settle down to marry some good Christian girl who gives bad head, if any, and he’ll just remember me as a one of those crazy things you do in college. The other is immediately plotting on how I can get that MMF threeway I’ve wanted to have (never slept with a girl, but wouldn’t mind trying it, just to see, and would prefer to have partner or coach there). But, that’s that insecure and horny part of me trying to take over.
I don’t see our society becoming more accepting of male bisexuality, though. I see it becoming more accepting of male affection. I wouldn’t be suprised if, down the road, this lead to more of a social acceptance of male bisexuality, but I’m not sure. A friend’s sister, both of whom identified as bi, once claimed that she felt that fewer girls came out, then guys, because girls got to take care of many of their emotional (and sexual, in many cases) needs with other “straight” girls, and it was all ok. In her words, “Becky and I are BFFS!! But we make out when we’re drunk!!! We’re SOOOO not gay!!” Guys, however, had to make a choice, and more or less stick with it. Which is why girls who claim to be bisexual are usually considered slutty, where as guys are usually considered indecisive.
Will this change? We can only see.
Mark in Colorado
@michael: Legitimate inquiry or discussion on sexuality or sexual orientation is not an insecure endeavor. We generally don’t stop learning after high school or college.
Mark in Colorado
@Bobby in Texas: Thank you for your service. I agree with @The Gay Numbers, you do seem like a well rounded guy.
apollosdragon
Thanks for the comments, and you are welcome. I have a couple more things I would like to say. Pragmatist brought up a good point. All the women that I have been with have always been curious about me after I told them I was bi. Some asked if it was a phase, if I was hurt by a woman before, if I want them to put on a dildo (LOL…..) I had to try and explain to them that no….none of those are the case, and that sex and relationships with men is just very different than with women. Another fear my girlfriends have had is that they feared I would leave them for another man, and they would tell me that if that would happen they would feel like less of a woman. I told them they had nothing to worry about, and that if we were to break apart it would be because the spark between us had died down. Some of them have even been out in clubs with me, and seen a guy they thought was hot, and would try and play match maker. At first I thought this was weird, but I later found out that a lot of women are turned on just by watching two men kiss. On the other hand there are women that are appalled by it. So it truly bowls down to different strokes for different folks. Lastly I think guys that are closeted or are curious find it easier to approach and be around Bi guys. For lack of a better analogy they find us less threatening for whatever reason, and find us as someone to help them bridge that gap. Okay I have sad my piece. For those that are curious about me you can see me on gay.com screenname (apollosdragon). Stay Safe, Sexy and Happy Guys.
apollosdragon
Apollosdragon…is Bobby in Texas…I was unaware that by logging in it would post my screenname on here…(Told you all I was new to posting on here….) Sorry for any confusion.
buzz
sometimes a guy just wants to get off.
Sampson
@apollosdragon: *sigh* and there I was hoping for a photo…
Sampson
actually, scratch that. I’ve seen your pic. Hello Soldier!
getreal
@Pragmatist: As someone who works in marriage equality and knows scores of men who identify as bisexual most do not tell their female partners they are bi for fear of rejection. The reason that most women want nothing to do with bi men sexually is that right or wrong most assume they are gay. most bi men identify as straight when they are pursuing women because they know most women are not interested in a relationship with a man who seem conflicted about his sexuality. If you don’t believe me just ask every woman you know if they would want a bisexual boyfriend I guarantee you the majority response will be a resounding NO.It does not have anything to do with prejudice but that “bisexual” is often a way station on the way to being gay for many people and most well adjusted people don’t want to aid someone’s confusion.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Kid A:
“But I think that fakers of all orientations are more deserving of accusations of condescension and being patronizing.”
Of course I always said that.
I was generalising in my response-I didn’t say straights or gays aren’t drama queens in relationships because they ARE. I dunno how to explain it as it’s very much ethonographic in research…and could be pereceived as ‘rude’ or ‘blunt’. I just get this sense of smugness…
Which is the only reason why I mentioned the patronising/condescending feeling in what you wrote, although it wasn’t meant with ill thought.
I just don’t know why it had to be hard for you? I guess solely because you obviously had a crush on a guy and you wanted to pursue it..
I dunno, maybe I’m just drained from hearing our financial stimulus plan…
Hmm…interesting about the place you can talk to other honest and genuine bi people…
Maybe I’m just too used to Europe…
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@The Gay Numbers:
Hmm.
Whatevs. I’m sure he meant it from his heart and he truly believed that..
The bottom line to this all is that we can talk all we want and use all sorts of big words to explain this or that and no one is being nasty…BUT we are all animals.
And animals like to compete. They like to compete for affections. Now, when you’re a gay dude and you’re trying to compete for affections of a Bi Guy with a frigging girl, how the HELL do you rate that!?
Can Bi’s out there logically not understand why therefore people are wary to be with you?
It’s simple and not advanced in thinking-it’s animalistic but it’s also real.
Of course I’m generalising…but this is what it is. You want to feel like if it came down to some competition for affection, you’d have a chance..
So I think it is a pity more Bi’s are not honest because then they could go out with each other and understand each other completely with no issues or anything….
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@The Gay Numbers:
I don’t mind brown guys like that either…I just have this thing for dark men like that-and not just any-it has to be blue black skin tone..tall men…very porportionate…very certain areas of west africa..
I guess the best image I can give is the make me a supermodel guy..but he’s too pretty and big..
emb
Maybe I should take off my tinfoil hat (it’s really SO two weeks ago), but it seems to me there’s an Unpleasant Political Thing afoot here.
I’m all in agreement about sexuality being a spectrum, and Kinsey scales and all that, and I agree that to deny bisexuality is small-minded and just the sort of bigotry gay-identifying people have to deal with, so let’s not go there.
HOWEVER, I’m concerned about the popularization of “The Bisexual Male”, only because bisexuality seems (the reality may be different of course) to imply the ability to flip-flop between sexes, which in turn implies choice, which could lead those so inclined down the merry path of gay-is-a-choice. Which it is not.
It’s a little troubling to me if bisexuality becomes a fashionable mainstream conceit, that’s lovely for true bisexuals, and probably nice for closeted homos, but the message of bi is choice, and that’s not a good message for those of us down at the far end of the scale. But maybe I’m just being paranoid.
Jet
EMB, I don’t blame you for worrying. I know it gets complicated trying to make it clear to straight people that bisexuals’ ability to choose (to varying degrees) is not in itself a choice, but that’s the reality. I don’t think the desire for political expediency justifies erasing the right to be bi.
I don’t believe that sexual orientation is a choice; however, if it were, that would be fine with me. I wish that GLBTs would have focused more on personal liberty that desperately hoping the scientists will make us legit to the straights. So what if being gay/bi were a choice? It’s as good as any other.
If anything, I think the Unpleasant Political Thing lately, as confirmed by Michael Musto’s recent biphobic article, is that bisexual men are NOT really “in” at all. There is some Katy Perry-esque poseur bullshit among a couple of opportunistic straight guys going on, but that’s it. And the hubbub created by a picture of two men only HOLDING HANDS, for Christ’s sake, tells me actual male/male sex is as taboo as ever.
Jet
Correction: “that” in the 2nd paragraph should be “than”.
Mark in Colorado
@emb: It’s a reasonable concern and one I posited on a much longer thread a week ago. I don’t think it is just how bisexuality is perceived all by itself among the larger population that’s the problem. Most people I believe could, over time, tell the difference between bisexuality and being gay. Both are valuable and should be respected. However, a continual and prominent conflation of the two (bisexuality and being gay) in the media or in society in general could have a detrimental effect in the political realm. And as much as many in the sexual minority communities might not like it, politics is life. The courts and the legislatures can only do so much, especially as citizen initiatives and propositions continue to be abused by ideologically driven anti-gay bigots (and right now they’re cornered like rabid dogs). We may just have to cross our fingers that the gains we’ve made in the past few weeks (i.e., Vermont, Iowa, Washington, etc.) last over the long term. One thing we should avoid doing at all costs is alienating or throwing bisexuals under the bus. They’re part of the family too.
Sam
@TANK:
Words are useless,
Especially sentences.
They don’t stand for anything.
How can they explain how I feel?
Also, can we not do this again? Also.
bisexual and proud
well first off i think it would be good if male bisexuality would be explored more since we as bi men take more shit then l and g and bi women take. Although i havent really noticed much bisexual male exploration at school or in the world, so this is kind of a myth to me. While i know alot of straight women are now saying their bi to get attention and etc and i know some bi women resent that because then it makes it seem like bisexuality is a phase which is ridiclous. I think its great if more men decided to explore same sex feelings, it would be nice for a change since us bi men take so much shit such as “were really gay”, “confused” “undecided”, im so tired of that.
Matt
I’m impressed by the large number of thoughtful contributers on this topic. Here’s my take: I think we are constantly growing and expanding our minds so we can understand the true nature of ourselves. I mean, what is it to be human? Not to get too heavy here but, looking back on our history, we are constantly redefining what is acceptable and normal. And, what we keep realizing is that our society functions a whole lot better when we accept people for who they are instead of sticking a lable on them and telling them they don’t fit. Bi has been the Scarlet Letter of labels for far too long. It’s about time we look at the evidence and realize that it’s ok to be attracted to the same sex; sometimes or all of the time, it doesn’t matter. Making yourself wrong and ignoring your inner desires won’t expand your mind or anyone elses. Just keep it real and don’t hurt anyone in the process.
Matt
Hey getreal,
Since you invited thoughts on your post, I decided to challenge your way of being. I take it you find comfort in knowing how things are. It’s gay or straight and there’s nothing in between, right? But, have you ever taken a really close look at the world? Can you name any naturally occuring thing (besides sexual orientation of course) that is either this way or that way without exception? For example, are people really black or white? Does a daisy always have the same number of petals?
I started raising chickens last year and was asked by a neighbor if I wanted a rooster. Since chickens don’t need a rooster to lay eggs (some people don’t know that) I declined because I value a peaceful morning. He surprised me then by telling me that chickens have been known to change sex when a rooster isn’t present. It’s their way of propogating their species when nature hasn’t provided. Ain’t life grand?
Abs
Ok,
Im bi, been wanting to try guys since i was 14, and im now 25 and did 2 years ago and loved it. Do I believe ALL guys are bi? No, do i believe that ALL guys do have fantasies about it, and would like to try it sometime inside them? Yes i do. I do believe there is a slight trend, NOTHING like girl on girl, but there is. Alot of movies, music, games are all slowly creeping it in, where it wasn’t before.
Also, to guys who think girls run from it, thats bullcrap. Every girl i have told I am bi, has literally BEGGED me to send them pics, let them come watch, and even video it and send it to them. A couple of girls begged me to secretly get a guy over, “accidently” leave my webcam on, and let them watch. Of course I did not do this, as its kinda a breech of privacy, and i would not like it done to me.