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California

BREAKING: Proposition 8 Upheld, 18k Same-Sex Marriages Valid

eightishate

The California Supreme Court just announced it will uphold Proposition 8. The 18,000 same-sex couples married during the window will remain married.

Vote 6-1. Here’s the full ruling:

Majority opinion: “In summary, we conclude that Proposition 8 constitutes a permissible constitutional amendment (rather than an impermissible constitutional revision), does not violate the separation of powers doctrine, and is not invalid under the “inalienable rights” theory proffered by the Attorney General. We further conclude that Proposition 8 does not apply retroactively and therefore that the marriages of same-sex couples performed prior to the effective date of Proposition 8 remain valid. Having determined that none of the constitutional challenges to the adoption of Proposition 8 have merit, we observe that if there is to be a change to the state constitutional rule embodied in that measure, it must ‘find its expression at the ballot box.'”

Justice Carlos R. Moreno dissents: “In my view, the aim of Proposition 8 and all similar initiative measures that seek to alter the California Constitution to deny a fundamental right to a group that has historically been subject to discrimination on the basis of a suspect classification, violates the essence of the equal protection clause of the California Constitution and fundamentally alters its scope and meaning. Such a change cannot be accomplished through the initiative process by a simple amendment to our Constitution enacted by a bare majority of the voters; it must be accomplished, if at all, by a constitutional revision to modify the equal protection clause to protect some, rather than all, similarly situated persons. I would therefore hold that Proposition 8 is not a lawful amendment of the California Constitution.”

 

sanfrancourthouse

By:           editor editor
On:           May 26, 2009
Tagged: , , ,
  • 523 Comments
    • Wish I wasn't Out of Town
      Wish I wasn't Out of Town

      RIOT!!!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • emb
      emb

      Well, that may be a bit extreme, Attmay, but still one is compelled to call bullshit on this cowardly, stupid opinion.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jennifer
      Jennifer

      ATTMAY, you are a gd troll. Get lost and go post on craigslist, where the other no hopers get their lulz.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mjj
      mjj

      refund all the taxes that gays have paid to the State of California!!!! This is utter BS and a cowards way out. I expected more from California than to bow to the bloody silly religious factions. Get YOUR religion out of my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M. Bergeron
      M. Bergeron

      Tyranny is alive and well in the good ol’ US of A. So, who’s next now?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wyatt
      Wyatt

      At least those that have been married under the law aren’t having their marriages taken away. I know it’s not much but focusing on the good is a positive thing we can be doing right now.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brandon
      Brandon

      @Attmay: Yeah, that’ll get us equal rights. And did you ever think that some Christians and Muslims might be gay, not to mention that “nuking” California would take out a big portion of the GLBT community?

      Maybe the first comment should be removed from the site? It’s the type of reactionary mindlessness that gives us all a bad name.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      Congratulations to the 36,000 married people, hoping more can join you soon.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      Its official, California has demonstrated to the world that it can and will do what Nazi Germany did. Strip away the rights of a particular group of people. This is a very sad day and to see that California is as morally bankrupt as it is financially is a huge disappointed to say the least.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew

      What a fucked-up result. The court did the right thing originally. Now, there are two “tiers” of gay folks in CA. Imagine the legal fallout from this.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ricky
      Ricky

      Well .. nothing of importance ever came easy..
      Still very dissapointing.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • atdleft
      atdleft

      BULLSHIT! http://www.ocprogressive.com/diary/663/bullsht-ca-supremes-uphold-prop-h8-18k-marriages

      Protest. Get angry. Don’t get violence, but do get vocal!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      This ruling is sickening! IT IS TIME TO TAKE TO THE STREETS AND DEMAND OUR RIGHTS! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      Where your Messiah now???

      May 26, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shae
      Shae

      So they are saying that we are not good enough to get married. Lets show them how good gays can tear shit up and riot!!!!! Attack all of those fucking buisness that supported and the churchs and everything. To all that gays that say we should be peaceful, that time has passed. We get beat up daily for being gay and now this shit, its unforgivable. I call on all gay people to RIOT!!!!!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mrs. Axelby @ the pub
      Mrs. Axelby @ the pub

      Now there’s a “chosen” class of 18,000 married gays in CA.

      Kinda like those 144,000 “anointed” Jehovah’s Witnesses!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • adam
      adam

      Don’t hate California because it’s the best state in the nation and one of the best places in the world. This decision affects a handful of people—instead of worrying about adopting “marriage” we should be working on a FEDERAL partnership bill that affords gays and lesbians ALL the same rights, but doesn’t contain that word: marriage. Is this about language or rights?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jed
      jed

      How frustrating. The text of the opinion once released will i am sure sicken me. At least other states are just goin ahead w/ legalization. California is where the future happens eh? Then our future looks pretty freakin bleak.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      Are you really surprised? And peaceful demonstrations don’t work, of course. Who cares? No incentive. Riot? Naw, this “community” isn’t going to do that. Weakness.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • George
      George

      This was probably the right decision in the end.

      We’ll win this at the ballot box and it will be a MUCH more satisfying victory.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D-Sun
      D-Sun

      Oh good, time for some peaceful demonstrations and bridge building! Those always get the job done!

      All in good time! Right, guys?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Lesbian Mafia
      The Lesbian Mafia

      @BradK: HEAR HEAR to that. He’s too busy yawning, or playing golf, getting a haircuts, or going to get a cheeseburger with Rainman Biden …

      May 26, 2009 at 1:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      LGBTQ will be spewing venom at any number of boogy-men that are trendy to blame for everything wrong in the world …

      Mormons
      Sarah Palin
      John McCain
      Catholics
      Republicans
      Bill Orielly
      Rush Limbaugh
      Christians (but not Barack, never Barack)
      Muslims (but not Barack, never Barack)
      Never the Baptists, Seven Day Adventists, Asians-Pan Asians, Hispanics, Caucasians, African Americans, of Barack’s Hope, Change, Unity Party. You know, the constituency that he spoke directly to for two years saying over and over that he does not support gay civil rights? Yah, them. Never blame them, it’s not trendy.
      Because poor Barack just can’t do anything about this no matter how much cares. Because he cares so much about gay civil rights that he drops his support, or gives it, at any given moment during his career. Wonder if he would do that if this was a few decades ago and they were fighting for Inter-racial marriage. I wonder if Barack would have preached to his constituency for 2 years that he is against Inter-racial marriage.

      Barack could most certainly help move this progression in the right direction. Just like they did for Inter-racial marriages. Make no mistake about it, civil marriage rights are NOT of any consequence or concern for Barack. This much is clear. Hypocrite isn’t a strong enough word considering the parallels to Inter-racial marriage.

      It’s pretty sickening to listen to a hypocrites who refuse to criticize Barack but will find anyone and everyone else to blame except him.

      LGBTQ wait to see if the Daddy-Government will givith or taketh away. Make signs, one to celebrate and one to mourn and if it doesn’t go well, get drunk and go away, and if it does, get drunk and go away.

      This is comical already.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz
      dgz

      @TANK: tell that to India.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tanked
      Tanked

      Weakness? Tank, your one of those old trolls who likes to think that because your Oil Olay has worn off your wise…isn’t enough that people did take to the streets. What do you want? Fires, burning of the Abbey? Destruction of the expensive horrible art that lines the streets of West Hollywood?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SteamPunk
      SteamPunk

      I really wanted to attend my first ever Gay Pride as a citizen of LA this June. But I don’t feel like giving my money to this state any more than required right now.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @adam: You’re kidding right? CA is a festering shithole of religious zealots run by corrupt, inept, and obscenely expensive government. The education systems of most third-world countries are better than ours. The days of “So goes CA, so goes the nation” were over long ago. The original 13 colonies are now leading the way.

      And as for anything happening at the Federal level, ya, good luck with that under this administration.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris
      Chris

      Lets bring back segregation to all California schools now that we’re on a roll.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • atdleft
      atdleft

      @George: Except that even if we win in 2010 (and I hope we will!), we’ll still be subject to more votes on our rights in 2012, 2014, and more years to come. I hope we’ll prevail and keep prevailing, but I fear we’ll see this become like the abortion initiatives… The same old shit being voted on over & over again.
      @adam: Go to hell. “Separate but equal” is neither equal nor fair! EQUALITY FOR ALL! EQUALITY NOW!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ksu499
      ksu499

      Well, this is certainly the most interesting outcome. No more same-gender marriages, but 18,000 already exist and must be honored. That’s going to be a fascinating administrative exercise.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @dgz:

      You think those were peaceful? LOL!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Synnerman
      Synnerman

      RAGE AND RIOTS!

      It’s time to abuse the fuck out of the system. Let’s start taking away everyone else’s rights. I’m sure enough hate can be cross pollinated to bring the whole thing screaming to the ground.

      FUCK THOSE BASTARDS>

      May 26, 2009 at 1:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kevin
      Kevin

      Umm… I thought California was a blue state?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul
      Paul

      Fuck California and the haters who have now reduced the state to a Nazi state of affairs.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @Tanked:

      This is why we can’t get anything done. Because of lame pussies like this… These kapos should be the first to swing.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      THIS IS PRESIDENT BARACH OBAMA’S MOMENT! WILL HE TAKE A STAND AGAINST BIGOTRY? OR WILL HE BE SILENT?

      THIS IS HIS CHANCE TO SAY SOMETHING OR DO SOMETHING, TO RISE TO THE OCCASION!

      IF HE REMAINS SILENT, HE NO LONGER DESERVES ANY SUPPORT FROM OUR COMMUNITY!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz
      dgz

      @TANK: you’re right, of course. the armed uprising of 1857 worked so well, and Gandhi had absolutely nothing to do with independence.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno
      Bruno

      The majority delivered an expected but rather weak ruling, and Justice Moreno tore it to shreds. That’s not even hyperbole…I’m shocked at how basic and wrong their ruling sounds. They should’ve just said, “we *could* find this to be a revision but aren’t willing to do so.” Because that’s the truth.

      Thank you Moreno, the one bright bulb in a sea of dims. And I’ll do everything in my power to see Kennard’s tenure on the panel end.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Larry
      Larry

      Please please please please don’t make this a racial issue, but by all means spew whatever vitriol you can about the groups that helped pass Prop. 8, and don’t be afraid to name names (I’m hoping to see a few “Fuck you LDS” and “Maggie Gallagher is a cunt” signs).

      May 26, 2009 at 1:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @Chris: No more inter-racial marriages. Lobby to make inter-racial marriages illegal. Only Barky and ME-chelle can have their marriages upheld.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      Shitty news. My condolences.

      Re: California
      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/25/opinion/25krugman.html?_r=1&em

      May 26, 2009 at 1:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Who is ATTMAY? Thanks

      May 26, 2009 at 1:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @dgz:

      You should really read a biography of ghandi and a proper history of the indian independence movement before you start regurgitating what you heard in grade school. Many players…many tactics… It’s just more complicated than you understand. And it wasn’t nonviolent.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @Larry: Do you know teven know the stats of who voted for Prop 8?

      It’s was Barky’s constituency … it’s time to wake up and smell the bigotry …

      May 26, 2009 at 1:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      This is a fucking outrage!!!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz
      dgz

      @TANK: “Gandhi.” ???? ?? ????? ????? ???

      May 26, 2009 at 1:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz
      dgz

      @dgz: oops, my hindi font isn’t supported… should’ve known.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      Those who DON’T have our best interest at heart will tell us to “riot” or “fuck shit up.”

      I wouldn’t be surprised if they were anti-gay religious fundamentalists or plain ol’ right wingers.

      Beware of Agent Provocateurs or those who act in the interest of our oppressors.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Richter
      Richter

      There is some indication that a very strong 9.7 earthquake will remove California from the continental United States.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EFD
      EFD

      The court is not cowardly, I think; that criticism is unjustified. That same court recognized the right to marry in the first place. A constitutional modification put to a referendum is hard to annul in any jurisdiction. Long story short (sad as it is): proposition 8 passed at the polls. Work should be focused on repealing it in the same way now; winning over the opposition, preferrably.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      I just read that the logic in one sentence is “the people have the right to amend the constitution at the ballot box.”

      If this is so, then why wasn’t the constitution found “illegal” when it was put in place? It clearly states major changes have to go through the legislative process first.

      No one is suggesting the “will of the people” be overlooked, but then SERIOUSLY:

      Why can’t we have slaves of a specific race? Ban interracial marriage if only a majority needs to vote on something?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @dgz: @dgz:

      Once again, you should read up on what you’re talking about. You don’t know.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno
      Bruno

      @EFD:

      In my opinion, it was the very definition of cowardly. Read the ruling, and how Justice Moreno debunks the limitations the other justices themselves put on the court. In fact, even Werdegar’s concurrence addresses this, too. This was *all* about limiting their own powers of interpretation to not be construed as “activist judges,” and to win re-elections.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      Good: Now that we can remove minority rights, let’s vote to disallow Obama’s SCOTUS nominee on the basis of her ‘Hispanic’ minority status. Then we can do a “No more black people for POTUS.”

      We will allow Obama to finish out his term (after all, they allowed the already-performed marriages to stand) but then after that … No more!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @strumpetwindsock: Yet more typical liberal economic blather from Krugman. So CA is broke-ass because they can’t raise enough tax revenue? I think only NY has a higher tax burden than us. It’s the bloated and corrupt governments — from the state all the way down to the municipalities — that can’t balance a checkbook. And never met an entitlement they didn’t like.

      Today’s despicable decision by the supreme court only reinforces that we have the weakest constitution of any state in the union. CA is literally mob rule. And it’s an ugly mob.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The_FNG
      The_FNG

      Looks like we’ll have to let the old-fogeys finally die off and be buried or cremated in California, and rid the state of their scurrilous bigotry.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      Okay, I understand that a lot of people are upset. I pretty much expected it though. Don’t get me wrong — I am all for gay rights. However, any other decision on CA supreme court’s part would have been legislating from the bench, which would NOT be democratic. The people of CA voted. Yes, they voted in a bigoted and homophobic manner, but the fact of the matter is that if they voted for a constitutional amendment, they should get one. Hopefully the US supreme court will soon lose it’s bigoted ways, interpret the 14th Amendment as it is written, and give us all full rights. Until then, it looks like a no go for California.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tanked
      Tanked [Different person #1 using similar name]

      Tank
      DO SOMETHING…don’t just sit here all day rewriting history. Make a blog a website, anything that supports your opinions. It must be nice to sit and pontificate from your comfortable retirement home, but words are not actions and unless you actually do something, your just voicing passive opinions.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thom Freeheart
      Thom Freeheart

      It’s time for gays and friends of gays to have a “sick out” across the country to show how important we are in the workplace and the economy.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @Tanked:

      REtirement Home? Look, I’m 28, and this is the second time you’ve called me elderly. Yes, a blog…because those are so helpful in staging demonstrations; peaceful or otherwise.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      How nice it is to know that the minority can be tyrannized by the majority.

      “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor, it must be demanded by the oppressed” Dr. M.L. King Jr.

      When will we start to heed the wisdom that has come before us? Until we become a force to be reckoned with this is what will happen.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      In my view, the CA S.Ct. is nonsensical and not credible as a judicial body. History wil laugh them for this decision. Either they should have overturned all the marrriages or Prop 8. This split the baby is classic poor judicial reasoning.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Jaroslaw:
      I think they yanked his post.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @BradK:

      That’s nobel laureate krugman or dr. krugman, to you.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @Bruno: This was *all* about limiting their own powers of interpretation to not be construed as “activist judges,” and to win re-elections.

      Bruno speaks the truth. Remember how the PropH8’ers were very vocal with their threats last November to work tirelesslly to remove any jurist that ruled against the H8?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @EFD: If you can make sense of this ruling, you are the Eistein of legal analysis.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @TANK: Then the Nobel Prize committee needs to revisit that decision. What were they smoking that day?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thom Freeheart
      Thom Freeheart

      March on Washington, anyone?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Z reveals
      Z reveals

      BIG DISAPPOITMENT! TRAGIC!!!!

      May 26, 2009 at 1:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tanked
      Tanked [Different person #1 using similar name]

      You’re right, sitting here all day writing opinions is activism.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz
      dgz

      @TANK: ok. pardon me while i contact my Hindi and history professors and tell them they were wrong because some guy online told me so. re-read my comments. did i ever say there was no violence? all i said was that Gandhi was important, and i would argue most important, just as i think MLK Jr. was probably the most important figure of the Civil Rights movement. you are of course free to have your opinion, and i will have mine. i was never rude, and never called *you* ignorant.

      now, debate over. back to the topic at hand. you were advocating violence, i believe?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @BradK:

      What do you know about their decision making process or the achievements which landed him the prize…or of economics in general? lol! I’ll take krugman’s opinion on the economy or state of the CA econ. over yours any day. And it’s dr. krugman. People don’t pay that much and invest that much effort for a phd just to be referred to by their first name by lesser mortals.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mara
      Mara

      Am I reading this right? I’ve been reading the PDF and this part stands out to me:

      As explained below, Proposition 8 does not abrogate any of these state constitutional rights, but instead carves out a narrow exception applicable only to access to the designation of the term “marriage,” but not to any other of “the core set of basic substantive legal rights and attributes traditionally associated with marriage…” … such as the right to establish an officially recognized and protected family relationship with the person of one’s choice and to raise children within that family.

      So they’re saying Prop 8 is valid because PROP 8 DOESN’T TAKE ANY OF OUR RIGHTS AWAY FROM US. We just can use the word “marriage”.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @dgz:

      No, I like saying most important because you haven’t the facts to back that up. MLK, JR. cashed in on years of activism, both peaceful and not and a rich tradition of african american liberation from marcus garvey to web dubois…and malcolm x was a very important figure in the civil rights movement, so don’t give me this jejune “most important figure” bullshit. It just reads like someone who doesn’t understand history nor has an appreciation for the movements one is referencing. Gandhi also capitalized on years and years and years of strategic activism and he wasn’t alone…there were people who advocated violent militarism before, during and after, and that threat is useful.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @TANK:

      don’t like saying, rather.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Mara: That’s a punt. What they are sayin is we don’t want to address the big issue of whether this case affects not just marriage, but other fundamental rights. The entire opinion is basically a punt.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno
      Bruno

      @Mara:

      I suppose they’re saying it takes one “right” or “thing” or what have you away from us…the nomenclature “marriage.” And they think just because they say they’re not taking it lightly that that means they’re not taking it lightly. Which I think most of us, including Moreno, would disagree with.

      May 26, 2009 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @BradK:

      Actually I posted it because of its mention of the popular referendum system, which threatens to tie the hands of government.
      Do you think he was wrong on that point?

      As you say… it is the equivalent of mob rule.

      @TANK:
      @dgz:

      Here’s a dime store synopsis of Gandhi’s non-violent philosophy.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha

      I also recommend you read Ward Churchill’s |”Pacifism as Pathology”. I don’t entirely agree with him, but even he recognizes there is such a thing as a true pacifist, not just the larger “pacifist” movement which is actually supporting oppression.

      Question for all of you.
      Why the fuck do they even call it a court if they vote based on their opinions and not the law?

      Do they think that statue of the law has a blindfold on just because she is into kinky sex?

      May 26, 2009 at 1:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @strumpetwindsock:

      I stopped reading after ward churchill. Get some credible scholarship, please.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mikeandrewsdantescove
      mikeandrewsdantescove

      It’s with great disappoint that I learned Proposition H8TE in California is being upheld by the voters from last November.

      Download Dream (FREE THROUGH 5/29) –

      http://www.myspace.com/mikeandrewsdantescove

      QNation.FM awarded Dream dance song of the year. The lyrics are about coming out in Iowa and moving to a more accepting place – California.

      http://www.prideshowcase.com/awards.htm

      The irony is Iowa has gay marriage NOW and CALIFORNIA doesn’t. It’s unfair and wrong!

      Music video of Dream featuring Marcus Patrick (Days of Our Lives), Ben Patrick Johnson (Voice Over Legend) and Bryan Hawn (Recording Star) –

      http://theqtube.com/view/495/mike-andrews-dream/

      May 26, 2009 at 2:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tanked
      Tanked [Different person #1 using similar name]

      Don’t you have a job?

      May 26, 2009 at 2:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • petted
      petted

      @TANK: I take it your referencing the Indian soldiers who defected when captured by Nazi Germany during WW2? Its an interesting bit of history only relatively recently declassified.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • troy
      troy

      Its not going to be pretty in California tonight and I wish I was there to help. However my gay and lesbian brothers and sister chose to express themselves in regards to this ruling I support them. A group of people have had their rights stripped away and have that upheld by the final authority of that state. I will not judge whatever happens tonight because you can only oppress and abuse someone(s) so long before they explode. If you are an HRC type, then put on your Banana Republic blazer and Kenneth Cole shoes and have a martini party tonight to discuss what has happened. If you are the Martin Luther King Jr. type, then assemble, march and speak the truth with your loudest voice. If your the Malcolm X type then do what you must do and may God watch over you and protect you. But this is going to unleash an energy that needs to be unleashed. We have learned that there is no branch of government that we can rely on to do what is good, what is right, what is holy. We are gong to have to do it ourselves and we have that power.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      It’s sad that you guys can’t see that we actually won.

      18,000 same-sex marriages are still valid in the state of California. That means there are more married same-sex couples in CA than there are in states where SSM is now legal.

      This means that the “protect marriage” assholes have lost. LEGAL Same-sex marriages will be a reality in California. These marriages will be useful for us when we approach the voters again.

      Prop 8 won in California. It sucks, but that’s the reality. We were outspent and out-maneuvered by a well-funded and well-run campaign from the anti-gay religious groups. They dogpiled CA and won. However, if it wasn’t for the focus on CA, I question whether we would’ve had the victories in Iowa and the Northeast.

      Again, this is a small victory for us and ultimately a major loss for the anti-gay crowd. Some of you who are outraged need to step back and take the reality of where we’re at in perspective…especially before some of you queens go out into public and say/do some pretty ugly and embarassing things in the name of our community.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Murf
      Murf

      Enough! you tired queen debating history is so tiresome and frankly not interesting.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      Well the gays are still waiting for Barack. They think he’s going to fly in and save the day in a Superman suit with his logo in the middle of his chest …

      Gays still trust and believe Barack is going to do something to help them.

      Gays still also believe that Barack has absolutely no way influence things.

      Even after he says it directly to everyone’s face “I believe marriage should be between a man and a woman because GOD IS IN THE MIX” … gays STILL think that he has their best interests at heart …

      May 26, 2009 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @kevin (not that one):

      Let’s celebrate, then…LOL! Ass.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @kevin (not that one): omg this commentary is hilarious. we won? wow.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz
      dgz

      @TANK: i never cited any facts, and neither have you. and i *did* mention the 1857 uprising, no? i have an opinion, it’s an informed one, and i happen to disagree with you (although i respect your opinion). please don’t be rude, it really hurts your rhetorical effectiveness. i presume that’s why your posting — to engage in discussion and convince people?

      okay, can we please drop this? more important items to discuss today.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Murf
      Murf

      Even with the court upholding Proposition 8, a key portion of the court’s May 15, 2008, decision remains intact. Sexual orientation will continue to receive the strongest constitutional protection possible when California courts consider cases of alleged discrimination. The California Supreme Court is the only state high court in the nation to have elevated sexual orientation to the status of race and gender in weighing discrimination claims.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @TANK:

      If you want to be a snob that is your choice. I prefer to evaluate people’s ideas at face value.

      I did say I didn’t entirely agree with him, but his distinction between true pacifists and non-violence which actually supports oppression is valid. Believe it or not, I mentioned him only as a nod to your argument.

      I think violence as a strategy is completely fucked, and just plays into the hands of those who oppose us.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Larry
      Larry

      @kevin (not that one): That’s a good point…

      Not only that, but this is a huge win in the long term as well. What the fundies don’t get is that this is bad PR for them, and it’s becoming clearer to the general public that these amendments and other anti-gay activities cause real harm to real people.

      There was a book that came out a couple years back called “unChristian” that showed something like 90% of people aged 16-29 consider Christians anti-gay, and close to 90% consider them judgmental. This is only going to cement that perception, especially in increasingly irreligious states like California.

      If they try to appeal to a federal court to annul the 18,000 marriages, they’ll look even worse.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sceth
      Sceth

      I suppose our next big issue is the Uniting American Families Act (Senate Judiciary Committee – June 3).

      May 26, 2009 at 2:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @strumpetwindsock:

      “Why the fuck do they even call it a court if they vote based on their opinions and not the law?”

      I’ll go you one better.

      Mr. Obama said “I believe that marriage should be between one man and one woman.”

      Since when is the law of the land and the interpretation of our Constitution and Bill of Rights predicated on the personal religious beliefs and whims of our President?

      May 26, 2009 at 2:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • REBELComx
      REBELComx

      Words cannot express the incredibly epic nausea that my righteous anger and moral outrage are causing right now. And not ONE protest scheduled in PA. Not Philly, not Pittsburgh, not Harrisburg, Scranton or the Lehigh Valley. I want to explode….

      May 26, 2009 at 2:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @strumpetwindsock: Have to admit that I didn’t read the whole thing. The first couple of paragraphs said all I could bear. I’ve been hearing those same arguments over and over and I think they’re dead wrong.

      In a decade of living in CA I’ve been through two booms and two busts. No matter what the greater economy, the state is always crying poverty. Where does the money go? The simple fact is that we have a subprime government.

      The mob rule ballot initiative is certainly more poison in the vat. Every time a new entitlement or tax is proposed in this manner, the money collected is supposed to be earmarked so that the general fund is not impacted. Unfortunately, this rarely holds true. PropH8 showed once again that the “will of sheeple” is all too easily bought with a slick ad campaign.

      This is no way to run a state, let alone one that is supposed to represent 1/5 or 1/6 of the entire world’s GDP. And I don’t see this changing any time soon.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Murf
      Murf

      Why do the Hillary lovers keep going on on and on…

      May 26, 2009 at 2:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @strumpetwindsock:

      A snob? I suppose I should start reading things like the bell curve as social fact, too. Ward Churchill is a crank and fool. He has discredited himself entirely. There are infinitely better books on social rights movements (actual history and analysis) than his screeds. That you’d even reference him casts aspersion…oh, what the hell, you’re a joke, anyway. I know your “Inherentist” view of violence. I think it’s historically mistaken.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Attmay
      Attmay

      @strumpetwindsock: Of course they did. They can’t handle the truth, and the truth is anti-heterosexual.

      @Rob: That would make us no better than the judges today. I will support a minority for these positions but only a gay one. And I will not support a heterosexual of any race for any office.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @BradK:

      You’d better just give up the ghost here, because strumpet’s not a rational player. I mean, he cited ward churchill, after all.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thom Freeheart
      Thom Freeheart

      The breeders see us as weak and ineffectual. Instead of stopping the hate, maybe we should return the hate?

      May 26, 2009 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @kevin (not that one):

      You’re a piece of work.

      I could just see you on Krystalnacht telling the Jews to “Cool it”.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Herbert Wassinger
      Herbert Wassinger

      RIOT!

      May 26, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Neverbeingboring
      Neverbeingboring

      will you people stop with your endless giggle over historical perspectives..no one cares.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Neverbeingboring
      Neverbeingboring

      “Kill the pig, Cut her throat, Spill her blood.”

      May 26, 2009 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno
      Bruno

      @kevin (not that one):

      There is no question that the other victories wouldn’t have come as quickly without CA’s 2008 ruling, especially Iowa’s. It’s just too bad that 3 justices (Kennard, Werdegar and George) lost the courage they had last year.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Schteve
      Schteve

      Comparing California to Nazi Germany? Really?

      About the only thing more retarded are the comments suggesting, however facetiously, that we retaliate by trying to remove others’ rights via amendments. Yes, that’s truly the way to go if you want people to join your side!

      Yes, you’ll likely have to deal with it for another year and a half. But imagine the satisfaction when California eventually becomes to first state to allow same-sex marriage by popular vote.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @Herbert Wassinger: Troll alert. Repeat: beware of agent provocateurs.

      Don’t play into the hands of the bigots.

      Our job is to win hearts and minds. Outside of that, all else is rubbish.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @kevin (not that one):

      Go martyr yourself, miss.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      win some hearts and minds by shopping for a new bag, queen.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      Yes, you’ll likely have to deal with it for another year and a half.

      Or six to ten.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @strumpetwindsock: Rioting and the threat of rioting has worked for black people time and time again throughout history … doubt there will be rioting and don’t know if it’s the wrong thing to do but what is the alternative? This could go on for centuries longer than the black civil rights movement … blacks don’t like us nasty gays to compare our movement with their but there are clear parallels here. They used the bible and the constitution to tell black they were trash too, now they’re doing it to us and many of those people who faught and won their rights have voted against our civil rights while they enjoy theirs …

      May 26, 2009 at 2:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Gay Guide Blog
      Gay Guide Blog

      Yes very dissapointing.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      I don’t think “winning hearts and minds” is a strategy …

      I’m not saying riots are … but clearly they work … Stonewall worked …

      I am asking what is an alternative that is as effective as rioting …?

      May 26, 2009 at 2:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @fitc:

      The winning hearts and minds palaver is for complacent faggots who ultimately want nothing to be done, and have no real suggestions. They think that they’ll be handed equality…and even then, on this pathetic state by state basis without any federal protections. They’re about as useful as a urinal on a rollercoaster car.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @BradK:
      You mean the part where he brings an assault rifle into a university and shows people how it works? That was my favourite part.

      @TANK:

      Funny, because you have made the same argument yourself that taking the option of violence off the table just helps the oppressors.

      Whatever you might think of the rest of his belief (and if you didn’t stop reading after you saw my name you would have read where I said I didn’t agree with everything he said) his distinction between true pacifism and people who just don’t want to rock the boat is perfectly valid.

      Then again, I’m not the one arguing for stringing up kapos (can you make a hangman’s noose any better than you can shoot a gun?). You can make your own damn argument next time.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • petted
      petted

      Perhaps we should extend our boycotts on Manchester et al and determine who else merits our attention in that regard?

      May 26, 2009 at 2:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @fitc: Illiterate and ahistorical folks like yourself hurt our cause more than help.

      Stonewall was a reaction to a police crackdown. Drag Queens and hustlers, with some gay patrons from the bar, were defending themselves from a police riot.

      Notice I used the words “police riot”. Your fabulous image of fighting the power was actually a riot instigated by the forces of homophobia. We did not instigate Stonewall, we merely defended ourselves.

      And Tank, you’re a sad old troll with too much time on your hands. You feed off of negativity and I can only imagine how your anger eats away at your soul.

      This movement for equality is now and forever will be led by people who love, who value love, and want love – not anger or hate – to win the day.

      Without love, this movement is dead. Without a committment to non-violent social change, this movement is dead. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dover
      Dover

      Again: It was THIS easy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi7DbJqkU2s

      May 26, 2009 at 2:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Had Christ been at Stonewall, we all know what he probably would have done…and 40 years down the turnpike, New York would still not have legal gay bars or the right to congregate in a public place.

      What would Ghandi have done? A “sip-in”, perhaps…like the one they held at Julius down the street from Stonewall?

      Tyranny is WRONG, even when it is perpetrated (and condoned) by the highest law of the land. And if trying to get things done peacefully and legally don’t work, well then, I guess the only other alternative is to do what needs to be done.

      I don’t know about y’all, but I for one, am tired of sitting at the back of the bus…an drinking from separate water fountains.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @kevin (not that one):

      Police crackdown as opposed to state crackdown, abusing people because of their sexual orientation. In any event, being treated inequally and wrongly is the common thread. I guess the proximity to violence matters to you; but this itself is a violent act.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @kevin (not that one): calm your mangos, damn you are one defensive person. does it hurt your feelings that much to ask a question? gotdayum girl, them hemorrhoids acting up?

      thank you for your worthless take. you pose zero solutions other than “winning hearts and minds” … wow that’s profound.

      are you winning hearts and minds yet?

      May 26, 2009 at 2:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @kevin (not that one):

      “Love”? Any other vague platitudes you’d like to write down, or inspiration posters you’d like to copy off of? LOL! I mean, according to you, this was a victory… KAPO.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @schlukitz: Um, Jesus was murdered by a coalition between conservative religious leaders and the state. He was a martyr for the seperation between Church and State, and when one of his students began to fight his arrest by cutting the ear off of one of the soldiers, he stopped him.

      Jesus knew he would be killed and he went into Jerusalem as a martyr for peace and love, because to Jesus these two things were the very essence of God.

      The movement around Jesus started off very small and remained so for hundreds of years. During that time, they were alienated and persecuted. There were many martyrs during that time who went willingly to die for the cause of equality, peace, and love.

      May 26, 2009 at 2:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @kevin (not that one): so in other words, unless you’re getting you face bashed into a sidewalk there is no need for concern. oh ok. i was worried i had to get off my fat ass. i think i’ll get busy “wining hearts and minds” at the bar tonight getting ripped on shots and blowing my load on a backroom wall. i have always won hearts and minds that way …
      thanks for your useful discourse. dumbass.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @kevin (not that one):

      kevin’s a christer.

      He was a martyr for the seperation between Church and State

      QED. No, if anything, he was the state’s response to religious extremism, and the threat to its hegemony.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @kevin (not that one): holy lord the guy is starting to preach the bible now! good heaven!

      May 26, 2009 at 3:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @Dover: “…a decent society is the one that does not humiliate its members”

      The People of California have a lot to learn. And a lot to be ashamed of.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @strumpetwindsock: Huh? How did we get assault rifles into the equation? Are we still taking about the Krugman article?

      May 26, 2009 at 3:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blake
      blake

      @fitc:

      The U.S. Supreme Court ruled against restrictions for interracial marriage. Neither the U.S. president nor Congress had a say in ending anti-miscegenation laws.

      California’s Supreme Court ruled against the anti-interracial marriage laws. Plebiscites that allowed for the public to overrule the California Supreme Court did not exist.

      The sad reality is that by upholding Prop 8, the California Court has thrown open the doors for similar plebiscites that can be used to take away the rights of anyone not popular with the majority. Theoretically, there could now be a proposition on the ballot to take away the rights of gays to drive cars, restrict their movements, etc. The same laws could be placed on anyone else.

      This decision is horrific if one values the rights of minorities. It’s a the Dred Scott case.

      Given the conservative majority on the U.S. Supreme Court, this is scary, very scary.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @TANK: I think KEVIN should be the one to WIN HEARTS AND MINDS because he is definitely the diplomatic type. I’m already feeling won over by him, he’s such a good example. Then he can whip out the bible and start singing about Yaweigh

      May 26, 2009 at 3:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      Go over to SFGate.com and you’ll see a Twitter feed regarding the civil disobedience going on at Grove and Van Ness. The majority of people getting ready to be arrested are LGBT and LGBT-supportive CLERGY.

      http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/twitter/topics/results?q=prop8staff&tsp=1

      Meanwhile Tank and one of his many sock puppets are furiously revolting from their armchairs.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @kevin (not that one):

      This is about religion for you…you sick bastard.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      Defending your christian faith when one of the principle reasons for the passage of prop hate was…christianity…sick fucking bastard. KILL THIS KAPO!

      May 26, 2009 at 3:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @TANK: Oh my. Advocating for a queer to be killed on Queerty.com…and if this doesn’t get you banned, then Queerty has a hypocritical double-standard.

      BTW, how’s that anger working for you?

      May 26, 2009 at 3:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MichaelSchott, PhD
      MichaelSchott, PhD

      Meanwhile Tank and one of his many sock puppets are furiously revolting from their armchairs.
      OK, this is funny!!!!!

      May 26, 2009 at 3:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @kevin (not that one):

      I couldn’t care less, to be honest. YOu’re a KAPO…the most toxic poison fighting against lgbt equality extant. I’d prefer dobson to you…at least we know where he stands. YOu dare defend your christianity when christianity passed prop 8 on this thread…is not only distasteful, it’s ethically abhorrent. You a deformed person.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @TANK:

      warped beyond recognition by christianity…you’re just more sickness.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MichaelSchott, PhD
      MichaelSchott, PhD

      Tank
      go back to dicktionary.com and learn some new words…
      ps. loved palaver, its so you!

      May 26, 2009 at 3:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @TANK: @fitc:

      I’m sure you’ve heard the old expression…

      “If you can’t dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullshit (the bible). ;-)

      May 26, 2009 at 3:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @schlukitz:

      Actually don’t be too sure what Jesus would have done (again, if the story is true):

      Matthew 21:12,13

      John 8

      Not all non-violent protest is ineffective, and not all belief-based protest is without physical force.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Giselle
      Giselle

      We wouldn’t be in this mess if Schwarzenegger had signed the marriage bills that TWICE arrived at his desk.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @TANK: You remind me of the anti-gay terrorists who were once a part of ACT UP San Francisco. In fact, you’re probably one of the only ones left whose not yet dead from HIV/AIDS but obviously suffering from AIDS-related dementia.

      I apologize to rest of you for feeding the troll.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @MichaelSchott, PhD:

      LOL! Someone’s insecure about their education, huh? Mister PhD…. I enjoyed your ham fisted attempt at making yourself feel better about your [likely] scholarly shortcomings by false accusation.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dan Cullinane
      Dan Cullinane

      Hey all — sorry about this, but relieved that the married folks stay married. I’m a big believer in taking it to the streets action, and I think peaceful demonstrations will do a great deal to begin the process, but obviously that can’t be all there is to it. From what it sounds like, the court is all but inviting a ballot initiative to overturn proposition 8. From what it sounds like they are all but inviting it and saying they will stand against challenges against it. That clearly means work.

      On demonstrations: Well, if the idea is to gain support for a future step (ballot initiative) I urge Californians to be message savvy. If the idea is to change minds, the best way to do that is by appealing to the heart, not the anger center. Some minds are never going to change, but even in the religious communities, there are many votes to sway, particularly among women. They will vote their conscience, even in secret, even if they have to lie about it later to their friends. Less mesages about religious bigots, less messages attacking specific religious institutions, and more messages about whats at stake. Large pictures of beautiful children under the words “Why won’t you let my parents get married?”, and other things that appeal to the heart. The issue of visitation, the issue of seniors being forced to live apart because they can’t get into housing together. That kind of thing.
      Oh, God, I can hear it already. Go ahead. Tell me I’m an apologist, tell me I’m a wimp. Tell me that gays are not going to be nice anymore. I know, I know. The temptation to set cars on fire is enormous, but ultimately it will not lead to anything other than images of cars on fire and screaming gays being used in the anti Prop-Next ads. If the demonstrations are moving, are showing loving people who have been hurt, rather than screaming angry faces, I really think they will be more effective.
      Signage should say something. A bunch of signs that reading H8 doesn’t say anything. Make the signage to the point, without telling people they are bad and evil. If you tell them they are bad and evil, then they automatically register you as the opposition, and vote against you.
      Signatures: Are you collecting signatures already? You need them in order to get the ballot initiative on. Lots and lots of them which means lots and lots of people in supermarket parking lots.
      Ballot: Has it been written? Has it been vetted for Supreme Court challenges?
      From what I’ve read, it seems like the leadership on fighting Prop-8 was lacking. Who is going to be in charge this time? Why? The standing community leaders seem to have demonstrated that their primary goal is to ensure that no one offends their friends in politics, or do anything which might endanger large corporate donations. That appears to me to be a significant conflict of interest, so rather than waiting for them to do what they already failed to do, is there an action committee forming which brings new, agressive ideas to the table.
      Such as: Fundraising. You will need lots of money.
      Such as: Televised debates with the opposition.
      Such as: Minority outreach.
      Such as: Web outreach.

      What you have learned is that you cannot rely upon the fact that you live in California. What you must do is work within that.
      What you might think about, is that by breaking that window, or burning that car, you might be burning your future.

      Just a thought, and good luck from Tennessee.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @kevin (not that one):

      LOL! now you’re just getting more toxic. Your personality…everything about you is poison to lgbt enfranchisement…this is about christ for you, not gay rights. go with christ…and get lost.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @Giselle: EXACTLY!!!!

      The blame for Prop 8 should be laid at his feet.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @BradK:

      No…. If I remember Churchill’s “Pacifism as Pathology” (it has been about a decade since I read it) the first part of it is him bringing a rifle into a university class and breaking it down just to show the students how it is put together.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MichaelSchott, PhD
      MichaelSchott, PhD

      Not to change the endless bickering between a few queens but I have a question: The ruling suggests that gay couples can be afforded equivalent rights to heterosexual married couples but perhaps under a different name.
      Forgive me, but is there something wrong with that? I get that the word “marriage” is a loaded word, but if my intent is to marry, have the same rights as everybody else, why does it matter if the word “marriage” is not the word I would use for that union. Curious, just curious really.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rigs
      rigs

      @InExile: Oh, he’ll be silent and his press secretary will do some Bullshit dance around the Question.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @blake: The U.S. President’s silence has everything to do with it. Barack Obama certainly swayed his constituency by speaking to them for 2 years straight drilling it in their heads that he does not support gay civil marriage and they listened to him, they voted Yes on 8. He also promised to uphold DOMA. They used the bible to forbid inter-racial marriages and now Barack Obama who enjoys the fruits of inter-racial marriage being legal being he is half white, is using the bible to forbid gay civil marriage. Most people were against Interracial marriage in the 60’s it is my understanding that after it was federally addressed that the movement excelled. The people are not objective enough to decide who deserves equality. The White House knows this first hand. There is far too much bigotry and ignorance to leave such issues to individuals. We would still be in the dark ages if that were the case for Inter-racial marriages.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Dan Cullinane:

      Well said.

      Thanks.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz
      dgz

      @kevin (not that one): prop 8 would’ve overridden the bill, no? constitution trumps legislation.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @MichaelSchott, PhD: you’ve gotta be kidding. google this: Separate is not Equal ok?

      May 26, 2009 at 3:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @MichaelSchott, PhD: The ruling basically confirms that the State of California is practicing “Separate But Equal” in regards to marriage. If this isn’t overturned at the voting box, then it may be up to the SCOTUS. Either way, this will all end at SCOTUS since same-sex marriage cannot be truly recognized anywhere in the US without being first recognized by the Feds.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @MichaelSchott, PhD: “Forgive me, but is there something wrong with that?”

      There’s plenty wrong with it. Separate is NOT equal.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal(the original)
      sal(the original)

      garbage,shame on you courts

      May 26, 2009 at 3:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Esteban
      Esteban

      Yes, Queer Nation, take to the streets. Beat up old ladies again (wasn’t it Palm Springs?) and get your ass kicked after vandalizing someone’s vehicle (Hollywood). The nation could use a good laugh right now, and seeing a bunch of silly gays throwing a collective hissy-fit will be downright hysterical.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @strumpetwindsock: Hmmm…you’ve piqued my interest. I’ll have to look that up.

      @Dan Cullinane: Well stated, but I have to respectfully disagree on the “grab your ankles and take it like man” pacifisim. Burning cars may not be the answer but neither is relative invisibility. “Oh look honey, those queers are marching quietly again, asking for some civil rights.” We’ve tried that for 40 years.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @MichaelSchott, PhD:

      Ultimately it has to legally be the same thing. Look at what is happening in New Hampshire with the fundamentalists saying they supported the proposed new law, and then withdrawing their support and saying they were lied to when they realized that it actually meant “marriage”.

      Dressing it up and calling it a different name isn’t going change the fact that as human beings we deserve the same rights. No qualifications, caveats or reservations.

      Sooner or later those who oppose it have to either die off or pull their minds out of the 19th Century.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Esteban
      Esteban

      It’s so odd…last May, the CSC was intelligent, forward-thinking, and courageous. Yet, one year later, that same body is ignorant, bigoted, and cowardly. You guys are funny.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MichaelSchott, PhD
      MichaelSchott, PhD

      Hey thanks for the response. Again, let me say, this is just an opinion, but on this matter, if my intent is to have legal rights, at least in my home state, and they are granted albeit it is not to be called “marriage” what makes this an ineffectual policy? Separate is not equal sounds like something Madison Avenue cooked up..what does that mean? If I have equal rights, how is that separate? “Blacks were entitled to receive the same public services such as schools, bathrooms, and water fountains, but the ‘separate but equal’ doctrine mandated different facilities for the two groups.” Again, just asking, but when we allude to this term, how does it apply? Does it make the union any less sanctified or legal?

      May 26, 2009 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BradK
      BradK

      @Esteban: I wouldn’t call them ignorant or bigoted, but today’s decision will go down is history as an outrageous act of cowardice.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • brad
      brad

      I am glad to live in Iowa.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Here is some more Joe Salmonese (HRC) sounding pap….this time from Equality Florida….

      “While we all may feel a sense of outrage over today’s decision, we can be heartened by the knowledge that the day will come when marriage equality will be the law of the land. The day will come when we look back in disbelief that there was ever a time when loving couples didn’t enjoy the freedom to marry.

      How quickly that day comes is up to each of us. We must translate our feelings of outrage into a long-term commitment to action. And being strategic about our actions will make that day come even sooner.”

      Why does this sound to me like the old song, ” ?? Some day my price will come ??”?

      Oh…and don’t forget to send more money.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @schlukitz:

      The real cost here seems to be turning people off (lgbt people, at that) from caring about lgbt rights. This is empty rhetoric.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc M.D. Ph.D RN SUV
      fitc M.D. Ph.D RN SUV

      @MichaelSchott, PhD: google this: Separate is not Equal. then call your President and demand that he uphold DOMA.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal(the original)
      sal(the original)

      @Esteban: wow i wonder if my black ancestors who marched for black rights listened to the majority who thought black people were just ignorant,monkey like caricatures ?that the point,march,let the people think what they think but let the angry gays show how they feel too

      May 26, 2009 at 3:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @Esteban: This is true. This is the same court that legalized SSM, so calling them homophobic or whatever is rather silly. They had a hard decision to make and frankly I think they made a decision that still benefitted the LGBT community by letting the 18,000 marriages remain. On that issue, there was no dissent.

      If the CA Supremes threw out Prop 8, it would’ve been ugly. I mean, more ugly than many of us would like to imagine. This was a voter-approved initiative. If they were seen as going against the will of the voters, it would’ve hurt our cause.

      I’ve seen the face of the enemy, and they are violent. The retributions against our community if the popular vote was thrown out would’ve been severe and the brunt of those targeted are those who don’t live in the metro/gay ghetto areas.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno
      Bruno

      @MichaelSchott, PhD:

      Yes Michael, it does. Let’s say I have a “marriage” in Canada (or possibly California, I’m not sure). That will be recognized as a “marriage” in Israel if I and my partner move there. If I only have a domestic partnership, Israel won’t recognize it at all. The UK only recently, after 3 years, started recognizing Spain’s marriages under their own term of “civil partnership.”

      “Marriage” is the recognized term, and mainly fundamentalists don’t want us to have it based on their desire to keep our relationships not only separate, but below theirs in social status.

      Surely if you read either the California ruling in re: Marriages from last year, or Iowa’s this year, you’d understand the explicit difference these nomenclatures involve.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc M.D. Ph.D RN SUV
      fitc M.D. Ph.D RN SUV

      @schlukitz: HA! And don’t forget to send more money is right!

      Brilliant.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EFD
      EFD

      @The Gay Numbers:
      I am not an expert in Cali law (don’t live in the US, even). But I heard the oral argument and it did not seem to me that the applicants were relying on very solid law. There was a distinction on whether the constitution was ‘amended’ or ‘revised’ which on the oral argumentation did not sound right.

      I think (again, not an expert) that maybe they could have argued that after Lawrence v Texas the right to marry should be considered as a fundamental right, protected by the XIV Amendment of the Federal Constitution? Massachusetts used this deciison, I think, to say that marriage is a fundamental right. That way, a State constituion could not take away this right in any way.

      @Bruno: This was *all* about limiting their own powers of interpretation to not be construed as “activist judges,” and to win re-elections.

      Read the above comment. Has the court heard a case like this in the past and ruled differently? Why ‘limit’ their powers? Again, I am ignorant of Cali law.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JonMcc
      JonMcc

      @FITC I’m sorry but what exactly are you referring to when you refer to Barack Obama’s “constituency”?

      May 26, 2009 at 3:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @kevin (not that one):

      SO now you’re defending the decision with threats of violence if it didn’t go through. It’s a victory for you… And you also want to blame governor and not your religious extremism… Once again, this chump is poison to the lgbt community. He’s a self hating self destructive gay person–and I have my doubts that he’s even gay.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cee
      Cee

      @Wish I wasn’t Out of Town: Yes!Riot! That’s the only way gay people are going to get anything across. Blacks did it and people do not fukk with blacks…LOL The whole non violence thing is not working people.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno
      Bruno

      @EFD:

      “Has the court heard a case like this in the past and ruled differently? Why ‘limit’ their powers?”

      The court had not heard a case like this in the past…Justice Werdegar noted this in the hearing, labelling it as a case of “first impression.” What this boils down to is the justices had a perfectly legal option to consider proposition 8 an illegally enacted revision rather than an amendment, but chose not to. Read Werdegar’s concurring statement for more details on how she felt the other justices in the majority on this ruling falsely concluded that a “revision” had been strictly defined in the past, and how through their ruling in this case actually did create this limitation.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Katie
      Katie

      The Road Ahead for Marriage Equality http://www.sokatie.com/2009/05/road-ahead-for-marriage-equality-in.html

      Now is the time for steady resolve, now is the time for determined passion, now is the time to reach out to all our neighbors in love and ask them to please support equality. Now is the time for outreach, and not outrage.

      Before the last election, many people in the LGBT and ally community thought there was no way such a hateful piece of legislation like Proposition 8 would pass in a progressive state like California. It was unfathomable that the same state that was the home of Harvey Milk, and that defeated the Briggs initiative, would strip away rights from our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters. Now we know what fear and bigotry can do in a short amount of time. Fear is a very ugly thing.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MichaelSchott, PhD
      MichaelSchott, PhD

      Then it would seem that all the time, money and energy should be spent on getting a Federal ruling instead of worrying about the states interpretation. Because if I move to Arizona, my marriage isn’t recognized there either. As for social status as a reason to keep gay marriage banned, seems simplistic at best. One suspects that the word marriage has religious connotations and that is what is do deeply frightening to many, not social status, whatever that is. Now, I must confess, I don’t get religion, i don’t get christians or jews, or anyone who seems to think they have the answer, but I will respect their right to waste their time. I just watched, “Because the Bible tells me so” a great and disturbing documentary about gays and religion and it confirmed everything I have believed about religion: it causes trouble. In this case, the marriage case, I don’t get why marriage is anything less if I don’t use the word marriage. If my lover is dying and his family claims to own his property, and I am unprotected, OK, lets fight! But if its because I want the word marriage, this really seems like a fight about language not action. It’s interesting that most people here are unable to articulate what exactly is is they are upset about.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EFD
      EFD

      @Bruno:

      Sounds reasonable. Will do; thanks.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      The pacifist approach only works if their is a rage-fuelled wing of the movement that is prepared to do the dirty work. If anyone in California wants to smash some windows and burn some cars today, well, I encourage them to do so. People want to argue that we should counter hatred with “love?” Really? News flash, children: they’re never going to love us, and that’s precisely why we are handed setbacks like this ruling.

      But you know what? Fear just happens to be a very powerful and primal motivator. If we inject a little fear into their equation, then they reconsider victimizing us in the future. The pacifist approach, though it may work given enough time, is ineffectual in the short-term, if not outright damaging.

      But here’s my thing…what happened to the talk about retributive legislation? Why not get an initiative placed on the ballot in CA to remove the tax exempt status of churches and religious organizations? We’ve already seen that boycotts are working, putting the fiscal hurt on the bigots. Why not hit them at the source of their bigotry?

      I guarantee you, if churches had to pay taxes before being permitted to spread their hate and lies, we’d see a lot less of them. I assert that most churches, if taxed fairly like the rest of us, would crumble under the weight of their own obsolescence. At the very least, their parishioners would be pretty much broke from tithing most of their incomes to keep the church alive. They’d be so busy trying to pay the bills and put food on the table that they’d be too worn out to rape us in the voting booths.

      Game plan:

      1. Tax the churches.
      2. Get marriage back in CA.
      3. Make it harder to revise the CA constitution.

      In that order.

      May 26, 2009 at 3:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc M.D. Ph.D RN SUV
      fitc M.D. Ph.D RN SUV

      This is what LGBTQ resorts to is making weepy sad songs …

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfPNO7G7qqY&feature=player_embedded

      “I won’t back down?”

      I bet they all voted for Barack Obama while he preached over and over and over and over again that he does not support gay marriage and half of his voters listened to him and pranced their asses right into the voting booth and voted Yes on 8.

      This shit is funny for sure.

      I mean if you don’t laugh you’ll cry …

      May 26, 2009 at 3:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal(the original)
      sal(the original)

      @kevin (not that one): garbage!!!brown vs board of education !!!!look at old footage,it wasnt popular ,the majority didnt like it but they did it.and THANK GOODNESS THEY DID!!YOU KNOW WHY?CAUSE IT IS THE RIGHTTTT THING TO DO!!!!!!

      May 26, 2009 at 3:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @vernonvanderbilt: Taxing the churches would only ensure that the wealthy churches would last (ie, the Mormons, Catholics, and megachurches) while the financially struggling churches (many LGBT-friendly mainline) would go under.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Katie
      Katie

      Look, you CANNOT bully people into accepting your views and voting your way at the ballot box because we have a secret ballot. We can give people black eyes, and guess what they’ll do once they pull the curtain in the voting booth? Don’t be stupid.

      You have the right to be angry, but calling for riots is the best way to make sure you will wait longer to get your rights.

      Also, there are MANY CHURCHES IN FAVOR OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY! http://www.eqca.org/site/pp.asp?c=kuLRJ9MRKrH&b=5131649

      ONE OF THE ORGANIZATIONS SUING TO INVALIDATE PROP 8 WAS A CHURCH ORGANIZATION … so please, embrace those who WILL work with you.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Katie
      Katie

      In case you forgot Martin Luther King Jr.

      “We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force. The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny and their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.

      I’ve seen too much hate to want to hate, myself, and every time I see it, I say to myself, hate is too great a burden to bear. Somehow we must be able to stand up against our most bitter opponents and say: “We shall match your capacity to inflict suffering by our capacity to endure suffering. We will meet your physical force with soul force. Do to us what you will and we will still love you…. Throw us into jail and we shall still love you. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and we shall still love you. Send your hooded perpetrators of violence at midnight hour to beat us till we are half-dead, and we shall still love you. Be assured that we shall wear you down by our capacity to suffer. One day we shall win freedom, but not only for ourselves. We shall so appeal to your hearts and conscience that we shall win you over in the process and our victory shall be a double victory.”

      May 26, 2009 at 4:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc M.D. Ph.D RN SUV
      fitc M.D. Ph.D RN SUV

      @Katie: Oh yes you can. It works for blacks. It works today yesterday and tomorrow …

      Nobody cares if they “accept” us or not. Civil rights are another matter.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MichaelSchott, PhD
      MichaelSchott, PhD

      Out of curiosity (OOC) who should we have voted for if not Obama?

      May 26, 2009 at 4:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blake
      blake

      @fitc:

      Obama never said that he would uphold DOMA. He said the opposite.

      Also, you need to a read a history book, Loving v. Virginia is the U.S. Supreme Court case that struck down the anti- miscegenation laws. Lyndon Johnson had nothing to do with the Court decision.

      You also seem to not understand that interracial marriage was not a major goal of the Civil Rights Movement. There was that whole thing about marrying white people not being as important as being able to obtain jobs, housing, shelter, voting, and other basic human rights.

      There’s this strange belief that interracial marriage is some how the exclusive or primary gift to African-Americans. Not true. In terms of out marriage, African-Americans represent the smallest group to out-marry.

      You want to blame Obama for Prop 8. The people to blame for Prop 8 are the ones who put it on the ballot, paid for the campaign, and voted for it. There’s also the whole issue of how badly the No on 8 campaign was run. Little to no outreach was done. When Hispanic and Black gay and lesbian groups offered their support, the No on 8 campaign dismissed them.

      All of this has been hashed out previously. The Yes on 8 Campaign succeeded in large part because of older, religious voters of all backgrounds.

      California’s plebiscites have been used to strip rights away from minorities in the past and will continue to do so until such time as they are reformed. The Court failed to protect a minority group from the prejudices of a minority group.

      This is terrible legal precedence and opens the way for even worse ballot measures that could be used to hurt any minority group. It’s a terrible decision.

      Ultimately, your attempt to lay blame on Obama for Prop 8 is intellectually and morally faulty.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito
      afrolito

      To all the morons screaming for riots and violence: Who exactly will be the target of all this rage and anger?

      May 26, 2009 at 4:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Kevin said: “Taxing the churches would only ensure that the wealthy churches would last (ie, the Mormons, Catholics, and megachurches) while the financially struggling churches (many LGBT-friendly mainline) would go under.”

      No matter what anyone says on this blog, peaceful or otherwise, our resident doubting Thomas Christer is right there to knock the stilts out from under them.

      Kevin also said: “If the CA Supremes threw out Prop 8, it would’ve been ugly. I mean, more ugly than many of us would like to imagine. This was a voter-approved initiative. If they were seen as going against the will of the voters, it would’ve hurt our cause.

      I’ve seen the face of the enemy, and they are violent. The retributions against our community if the popular vote was thrown out would’ve been severe and the brunt of those targeted are those who don’t live in the metro/gay ghetto areas.”

      Fearful, self-loathing, queer apologist. Lick those boots and keep kissing ass, Kevin. Way to fo.

      You are a social embarrassment to the LGBT community.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Katie
      Katie

      PLEASE READ THIS http://isupportmarriage.com/

      Now, I think NOM et al are jerks, but let’s not give them any more recruiting tools than they already have. Please protest responsibly!

      And, the Republicans who changed their minds to support marriage equality said it was because they met people who were gay, and were ordinary loving people like the rest of us.

      It’s okay to be angry, just use that energy positively.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @kevin (not that one): I agree that it would prove to be a potentially insurmountable burden to small, struggling churches. I simply don’t care if that’s the case. However, I do not believe that large churches would be exempt from the same possibility. I am not saying fair taxation would completely annihilate every church. Undoubtedly, some would be left standing. Those that did survive it would do so based on their own merits, not a governmental shield put in place to protect them from themselves.

      @Katie: You’re right. Many churches do support the equality movement. Many, many, many more do not. If those supportive churches dissolve in the end…well, collateral damage is to be expected. I won’t weep for them, because I would already have been expecting it.

      And the Martin Luther King stuff? Maybe you want a lifetime of suffering, inequity, and hardship, but I sure don’t. Almost 50 years on from MLK and African-Americans are still not treated as true equals in this nation. You think because we elected a half-black president that ties up all the loose ends?

      I, personally, don’t want to leave loose ends for future generations to tie up.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Vernon – sounds like a good strategy to me.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @schlukitz:

      Hear hear.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @vernonvanderbilt:

      Well put.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal(the original)
      sal(the original)

      @kevin (not that one): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGjNqrQBUno&feature=related

      May 26, 2009 at 4:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      And Katie, I’m not a historical expert, but many tomes have speculated that MLK’s peace & love msg was a lot more palatable to the alternative, violence, which had already been used.

      I think there is a place for both, peace & violence. If not violence, at least then a lot more vigorous protesting.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      Kevin I’ve agreed with most of what you’ve said but are you really saying people shouldn’t be angry?

      May 26, 2009 at 4:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MonaLisa
      MonaLisa

      Don’t back down.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      And this just in from ACLU….among many other groups I have already heard from.

      Those opposed to same-sex marriage are on the wrong end of history. And, with your help, the ACLU will wage and win this battle for equality no matter how long it takes.

      Sincerely,

      Anthony D. Romero
      Executive Director
      American Civil Liberties Union

      take action. DONATE TODAY

      All the “civil-rights” groups just got their cue from the Supreme Court of California. The fund-raising drive is on. What city will HRC hold their big, glitzy, black tie affair in this time around, I wonder?

      And the longer it takes to get equality, the more profitable for them.

      Oops…did I say that? Bite my tongue. ;-P

      May 26, 2009 at 4:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      So are any of you boys actually planning to go out and torch some Mormon churches, or are you going to talk about it and leave the risky business to others?

      Let me know so I can set my VCR and catch it live.

      Financing for the Yes on 8 Campaign did come from the entire country after all, not just California.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Today is a heartbreaking day for those of us in California who have working on prop 8 first on the No on 8 then on the Repeal 8 campaign. It is also heartbreaking to read the same sort of navel gazing criticisms. What about action? If everyone on here kvetching could give a little of their time to activism equality would come a lot faster. Complaining may feel like action but it isn’t not to be negative but today in west hollywood is a sad day.

      For California residents this Saturday MEET IN THE MIDDLE FOR EQUALITY a rally for national equality, a chance to get plugged into the fight for marriage equality. Get in your car and go.

      http://www.meetinthemiddle4equality.com/

      May 26, 2009 at 4:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Todd
      Todd

      “Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due…” – Romans 1:27

      May 26, 2009 at 4:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • myrios123
      myrios123

      I know you’re angry. I’m angry too. CA was supposed to be showing us the way, not blocking it. We need a boycott (stop buying CA wines), a significant response (where is a Harvey Milk when we need one?), and a clear message that “separate is not equal.” How does this concept still escape people? I give a damn and I hope I keep giving a damn all the rest of my life.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MonaLisa
      MonaLisa

      I’m wearing heels tonight!

      May 26, 2009 at 4:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @Todd: Fuck off.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Todd: “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” – Psalm 137:9

      May 26, 2009 at 4:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • myrios123
      myrios123

      @Todd: You’re quoting Paul’s book of Romans… seriously? I also imagine you keep a full length beard, are still unmarried, and don’t eat shellfish. Thanks for your post… I’m sure you’re deriving some kind of pleasure from all of this “told ya soing.” Very christian of you.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Attmay
      Attmay

      I don’t see rioting yet, people? So far all this sound and fury has signified nothing.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Todd:

      Really? You think Jesus is smiling down on you giving you the thumbs up for dropping in here to gloat?

      Fact is baby you are on the wrong side of history and in a few years when we have our rights you’ll be ashamed to admit you pulled this childish stunt.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Namaste85
      Namaste85

      To all the people who are saying get angry, riot, ect, you guys have the wrong idea about how to handle this ruling. You dont get anything done right by anger and violence, didnt we learn this from Gandhi, MLK, Mother Teresa, and every other peace activist who created long lasting change?

      The people who stand against the gay rights movement wont be swayed by a gay violent uprising but we can march and demonstrate in peace and with conviction to get the much deserved equality the gay community needs and rightfully deserves. You cant put out a fire with fire, history has shown us that these battles are won with love and compassion and articulation. If MLK had called for the black community to go out and fight and cause violence it would have only justified what they believed about black people in the first place.

      What it will take is a smart well organized national power in numbers movement with well orchestrated campaigning. with us being the water that douses their fire, they will soon see that their hatred, misunderstanding, and anger is aimed in the wrong direction and that the real issue is they dont have a problem with gays, they have a problem with themselves.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      Speaking of Mother Teresa, read the Hitchens hit piece on her. Wowsa! You’ll never think that opportunistic, misanthropic corrupt bitch the same way.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Namaste85: You have no idea how wrong you are when you say that anger doesn’t accomplish anything. Anger is the fuel for the engine of equality. Without that fire, we’re just harmless pacifists, letting ourselves get walked on so long as the powers that be keep telling us “Someday…just not today.”

      You can volunteer to be the bigots’ doormat if you like. I’m more in favour of stepping on them.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Namaste85
      Namaste85

      The Arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice – MLK

      its only a matter of time…

      May 26, 2009 at 4:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MonaLisa
      MonaLisa

      The universe is God in carnation
      dreaming with Itself.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      Namaste85 – WRONG – history has shown violence paves the way for peaceful protest, most of the time.

      Look at our own Gay history – there was SIR in California and other things LONG before Stonewall, but that is what got things going.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      Okay, now we’re just getting into New Age, hippy-dippy psychobabble bullshit. If you have nothing if value to say, why open your mouth?

      Oh, it’s so you can breathe.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Todd
      Todd

      @BRI – “…backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters…” Romans 1:30 – those aren’t my word Bri, they’re God’s, and whether you believe them or not is immaterial – funny thing is, you will eventually get your homosexual marriage, thats the way this world is heading, and good luck to you on that, this is not going to be a fun place to live in…

      May 26, 2009 at 4:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BoddyD
      BoddyD

      Yes, ‘n’ how many years can some people exist
      Before they’re allowed to be free?
      Yes, ‘n’ how many times can a man turn his head,
      Pretending he just doesn’t see?
      The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
      The answer is blowin’ in the wind.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @vernonvanderbilt: I agree with you. Anger and fear are important tools.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @Todd: I don’t believe in god. You are wasting your time.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Namaste85
      Namaste85

      @vernonvanderbilt: if you read what i said, i didnt say lay down and be a doormat, you can protest with the conviction to stand up for your rights and equality and its totally right to feel angry. we have the right to feel angry but you cant act in an angry manner. I was specifically speaking toward rioting and violence, not protest or laying down to the other side. There are plenty of activists with fire and passion and thats what you need to ignite change, I was merely stating that violence wont be the answer to all the people who think it is.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      Gee, no answer to my question yet.

      I guess all the real revolutionaries are out collecting bottles and buying their cans of gas.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @Namaste85:

      Right! It’s only a matter of time. I mean, nowhere in “history” have groups of people been oppressed relentlessly for hundreds of years…nay, thousands! Time it is…I mean, given enough time, the very unlikely itself comes to play out…Time enough for a group of monkeys to write the collected works of shakespeare, in fact, not… That’s justice!

      May 26, 2009 at 4:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BoddyD
      BoddyD

      Don’t let that seed of fear and anger take root
      Once again imposed by the next generation
      The only way to kill this weed is to resist
      And erase the prejudice inside ourselves
      And one day we might change this world
      Yeah, one day we might change this
      —satanic surfers

      May 26, 2009 at 4:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Finally justice has been served. We The People have taken back their rights from the judiciary, Homosexual marriage in California has been defeated.

      Those 18,000 homosexual ‘marriages’ will remain as an embarrassing wart on the face of the CA Supreme Court, who should have stayed their June 2008 ruling until the people had held a ballot.

      As a concession to the homosexuals I support changing the CA Constitution so any future amendments require a 2/3rds majority.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @strumpetwindsock:

      a vcr? Get with it, man! Update.

      May 26, 2009 at 4:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: What was the question, strump? I’d be willing to take a crack at it if it’s addressed to anyone with my particular outlook.

      @Namaste85: “You dont get anything done right by anger and violence…”

      So which is it then?

      May 26, 2009 at 4:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Todd:

      Well if you are planning to get raptured do you think you can arrange to do it before the next referendum, please?

      May 26, 2009 at 4:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won: Yeson8Won’tBeCheeringNextYear

      May 26, 2009 at 4:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @yeson8won:

      Yes, you just achieved victory by a tiny, practically simple majority in spite of a horrendously mismanaged opposition campaign. Douchenozzle.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @yeson8won: Fuck you in the ass with a splintery crucifix, you bloated, bigoted piece of shit. I hope you choke.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BoddyD
      BoddyD

      God is dog, backwards

      May 26, 2009 at 5:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Todd
      Todd

      @myrios123 – I understand how reading the truth causes conflict and confusion…there is a cure for your sin disease and His name is Jesus…if only you knew what He healed me from, you’d realise that your ‘lifestyle’ is not that big a deal for Him and really not worth all your agony…

      May 26, 2009 at 5:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      To paraphrase Gavin Newsom, the divorced, law-breaking poster-boy of the homosexual marriage campaign:

      “Homosexual marriage is ILLEGAL in California – whether you like it or not”!

      May 26, 2009 at 5:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob (not No. 53)
      Rob (not No. 53)

      There’s still a big legal question to be settled in the courts: is California required to recognize same-sex marriages that were performed out of state before Prop 8 was passed?

      May 26, 2009 at 5:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @TANK:
      If it ain’t broke keep it out of the landfill, baby.

      @vernonvanderbilt:
      Just asking all those promoting the revolutionary qualities of violence if they will be personally setting any mormon churches alight this evening, or if they are just bullshitting.

      (or maybe they have bad knees)

      After all, fundraising to support prop 8 came from across the country, not just California.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Namaste85
      Namaste85

      So if the anti gay americans rose up and took to the streets attacking gays in protest to gays having rights because they want to use anger anf violence to support for their opinions with anger and fear i guess that would be ok too right? you don’t need to have a violent rage take place so you can have a peaceful protest, that’s just backwards thinking. the key is progress not repeating the same cycles over and over.

      If the opposition to the gay rights movement rise up in violence attacking gays, gay own businesses and events i expect there will be no objection from Jaroslaw because theyre only using anger and fear to get what they want and what they feel is right.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      vernonvanderbilt: Fuck you in the ass with a splintery crucifix, you bloated, bigoted piece of shit. I hope you choke.

      Good to see these tolerant, open-minded, equality seeking homosexuals spreading their message of LERV !

      Little old ladies in Palm Springs better stay indoors, the angry homosexuals are on the prowl again!

      May 26, 2009 at 5:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: Ah. Well, if there were any Mormon churches in the immediate vicinity of my dwelling, I would certainly consider it. I do know there are a couple of missionaries somewhere around, as I see them trotting up and down the sidewalks on occasion. I really wish they would knock on my door right about now.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BoddyD
      BoddyD

      The problem, of course, is that religious beliefs mostly just aren’t true. Anyone who can read pretty well knows better. Sure it sounds good, but basically Jesus is just Santa Claus for adults. As was said of my idol Barry Goldwater, in your heart, you know I’m right.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @Namaste85: Since when does anger and fear automatically equal violence?

      May 26, 2009 at 5:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @yeson8won: Hey, bitch, don’t go accusing me of spreading a message of love. I have no love for you or your kind. I wouldn’t have any qualms about breaking someone, no matter their age or gender, if they had the nerve to come into my neighborhood and talk shit about me. It’s easy for you to come here to our website, safe in the anonymity of the internet, and spew your hateful drivel. You’re a bitch and a coward, and I really do hope you choke. You and your ilk are a stain on the fabric of humanity, and we need to bleach the shit out of you and make you go away.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @Namaste85:

      Thrasymachus was definitely on to something…

      May 26, 2009 at 5:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @Todd:

      And this whole “lawdy cured me of my piles” nonsense needs to stop now. No, jesus didn’t heal your hemorrhoids, todd. Give it a rest, freak.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @vernonvanderbilt:

      What a shame…. and here we could have won our freedom if only you had the bus fare to strike your blow against the oppressor.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Todd
      Todd

      @yeson8won – Wow, Dude, that is one heck of a lot of hate for 1 message…maybe try splitting it over, I don’t know, 4 or 5 messages next time so we can try digest it in bits…

      @boddyd – I hear you, spent most of my life in denial, I was a closet Believer…but you know what, and you should understand this, being in the closet and denying who you really are is a terrible waste of a life, so please let me have my beliefs, even if you think that they are in contradiction to yours and a fantasy tale…if you change your mind, there are 66 books in that good old Bible, quite a bit to think about really…

      May 26, 2009 at 5:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Namaste85
      Namaste85

      @TANK: I agree, we just have to stay strong and this battle will be very short lived, it wont be over night but 20 years from now we will see how effective we were in winning the rights we deserve.

      @vernonvanderbuilt: its just like you said, you use the anger as fuel but you dont use it to do more damage to the overall cause, you get angry and you do more good for your cause with that energy, its 2009 and violence just isnt the answer period, it will do alot more harm than good.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Phil
      Phil

      Honestly, when someone like “YESON8WON” posts on a site designated for our community, their e-mail addresss should be posted so that we can all write to him personally to share our feelings with him.

      By the way, YESON8WON, in a moment of shame imposed upon me by the YES on 8 campaign, I fucked your mother and wife. Your daughter, though, was too skanky.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      patience isn’t one of my virtues. And strumpet, stfu with your “what are you going to burn down?” idiocy. As if you’d be told…as if anyone would trust you with even plans for tea.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: Shouldn’t you be picking on Tank? You asked for an answer, I gave you mine. I would not weep if every Mormon church in the world were reduced to ashes in the next 24 hours. Same goes for the Catholics. Same for the Baptists. Same for any church or denomination that opposes equality.

      Furthermore, I said I would consider it. I didn’t say I would do it. There’s a difference between thought and action, even though the christians would like us to think otherwise.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BoddyD
      BoddyD

      The Bible has sold 2.5 to 6 billions books. “Quotations from Chairman Mao” has sold ove5 6.5 billion…a bit to think about really…

      May 26, 2009 at 5:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Namaste85
      Namaste85

      See this is what the opposition will say when you take that approach, they just want to add this to reasons to oppress. youre fighting fire with fire Vernonvanderbuilt and thats the reaction they want.

      “Yeson8Won:

      vernonvanderbilt: Fuck you in the ass with a splintery crucifix, you bloated, bigoted piece of shit. I hope you choke.

      Good to see these tolerant, open-minded, equality seeking homosexuals spreading their message of LERV !

      Little old ladies in Palm Springs better stay indoors, the angry homosexuals are on the prowl again!”

      May 26, 2009 at 5:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Namaste85: The only problem with blatant, obvious violence is that it puts good warriors in cells while letting our oppressors run free. A true warrior knows how to act surreptitiously, subtly, against his or her enemy. There are ways to strike blows against the bigots that are statistically unlikely to result in jail time. That keeps warriors on the streets, able to remain active and vigilant. It’s great that there are people who think standing in the sunshine chanting slogans will gain equality within a few generations. I am still 1000% in favour of inconveniencing our enemies and undermining their efforts at every opportunity.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @vernonvanderbilt: RE: taxing churches…

      I’m not totally opposed to taxing churches (even though I think it’s a rather ridiculous strategy in assuming it even has a shot or that it will give us rights as LGBTs). If one were to tax the churches, I’d hope that it was done on a sliding-scale basis.

      @bri: I think it’s natural that we feel angry. But there’s a lot of misguided anger out there and in this comments section. I think there are quite a few people on here who are interested only in themselves and many others who want to bait us into acting irrationally. I question the motives of people who say I should be killed for being a “kapo” whenever I advocate for peace and loving our opponents, even as we oppose them and their efforts. Who say I’m self-hating when I propose that we win the hearts and minds of the masses, rather than going out and breaking windows like children.

      And I suspect that some of these very same people are posting under different aliases and disguising themselves as homophobes to whip up hatred and resentment.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Namaste85: Listen, kid, this ain’t my first time at the rodeo. I know what the trolls want. I also know that, in the grand scheme of things, they do not matter. But you know what? Berating them gives me a small sliver of satisfaction and lessens the pressure in my skull that whispers to me “Do something more…destroy them.” Lambasting trolls on a website gives them what they want. Sure. It also gives me what I want, a moment to vent.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @kevin (not that one): No, I don’t believe such a measure has a chance in hell of succeeding. However, I think the mere act of putting it on the ballot shows that we are willing to fight as dirty as the bigots do. It’s not about the cause…it’s about the effect. It’s about showing them just how serious we are about equality.

      Also, even if it should come to pass, you’ll note that I said, several times, that fair taxation would be a good thing. We don’t need to tax them out of their churches. I don’t believe most churches could even handle a fair tax burden to begin with.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @vernonvanderbilt:
      @TANK:
      I’m just throwing it into the room, boys.

      Since there seems to be:

      a) a few calls for burning, breaking glass, inducing terror and worse.

      b)a fair bit of ridicule for anyone who favours non-violence and thinks that rioting will actually work against us.

      c) the opinion that non-violence only works if there is the threat of violence behind it.

      I just put the question out there to see if anyone was planning on putting their words into action, or if this was all just a bunch of posturing and bullshit.

      And vernon, I do actually thank you for having the guts to step up and answer me.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @kevin (not that one): Fair enough, though I can’t say I will ever love these people. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to win them over, but I think the majority of the people who hate us aren’t ever going to come around. They are too stubborn headed and illogical.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      This forum proves – yet again – that homosexuals thrive on demanding tolerance from others whilst being completely INTOLERANT, hateful and bigoted themselves.

      You are such hypocrites.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rick
      rick

      @yeson8won: why do right wing assholes hang out on gay sites to bash gays?

      May 26, 2009 at 5:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Rick: @yeson8won: why do right wing assholes hang out on gay sites to bash gays?

      Is this a ‘gay site’?

      I thought you gay guys were all about EQUALITY and fairness?

      I thought you despised DISCRIMINATION?

      Why have a forum where a bunch of nancy boys sit around all day agreeing with each other? You can do that in the bath house or the hair salon.

      It’s good that you get to hear the other side of the debate.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rick
      rick

      GAYS STILL HAVE ALL THE SAME RIGHTS WITH CIVIL UNIONS. TAKE THEM, MAKE THEM YOUR OWN AND A BIG DEAL OUT OF THEM JUST LIKE THE STRAIGHTS DO WITH MARRIAGE AND THROW IT IN THEIR FACES. HAVE PARTIES THE WHOLE SHEBANG.

      HAVE CARDS PRINTED, ANNOUNCE IN THE PAPER.

      IT IS WHAT THEY DO IN EUROPE FOR GAYS AND STRAIGHTS. CHURCH IS CHURCH AND MARRIAGE IS A CIVIL UNION.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rick
      rick

      @yeson8won: GOOD LORD A FLAMING RIGHT WING ASSHOLE JUST HERE TO STIR UP TROUBLE. GO FOCUS ON YOUR RIGHT WING RELIGIOUS IN THE CLOSET WEBSITES LIKE FOCUS ON THE FAMILY.

      YOU ARE NOT HAVING YOUR RIGHTS DENIED JERK.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      BoddyD: The Bible has sold 2.5 to 6 billions books. “Quotations from Chairman Mao” has sold ove5 6.5 billion…a bit to think about really…

      On that logic we should all be worshiping The Beatles!

      May 26, 2009 at 5:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: My mirror tells me I have plenty of guts. :P

      But here’s the thing (and correct me if I’m taking something personally that I should not): the only thing I have ever said on this site as far as violence/the threat of violence is concerned, is that every successful civil rights movement has succeeded not only due to the efforts of pacifists, but also because there was a smaller, more radical faction of the same movement. I don’t have a problem with pacifists (even if I sometimes call them “pussifists” ;)) because I understand that they are more palatable to the milquetoast mainstream. This is why we canonize MLK and ignore Malcolm X. I get that, and I understand it. The problem is that pacifists seem to feel a sense of entitlement, sitting on high horses, spouting inane blather about “love” and “respect” and other such horseshit. Then they want to act like the true radicals have no investment in victory when it comes.

      Remember, someone has to blaze the trails that the rest of you march on.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      The Yes on 8 campaign won because they ran their campaign with no regard to the truth or integrity. They designed carefully tailored campaigns of lies for each community and spent 80 million dollars. and they barely won. They won’t next time and some of their own leaders have gone on the record saying they know they are fighting a losing battle. This is just going to grow the equality communities armies of activists. To people who believe in equality grassroots efforts in our communities is what it is going to take. no one is going to give it to us. We have to do the ground work and push from bottom until the top of the power structure has to hear us. Getting arrested and freaking out does nothing for this movement. Organizing, phonebanking,canvassing there are productive uses of our energy. We also as a movement have to stop being afraid to interface with other communities be they straight, communities of faith etc. We will have to person by person go after hearts and minds. That is how the yes on 8 people won. LGBT were afraid to leave their insulated communities and have uncomfortable conversations and actually interact with people out of their comfort zone.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rick
      rick

      @yeson8won: “bath house or the hair salon” way to sterotype. i have never been to a bathhouse or a hair salon. i have a crew cut from my bf and before that a barber. i suspect taht you are nothing but a closet case with a teeny tiny peeny who was beaten by his religious nut job father to knock the queer out of you.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lance Rockland
      Lance Rockland

      @yeson8won: Eat my dick.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won: Nancy boys? Do vernonvanderbilt and tank and so on and so forth sound like nancy boys to you?

      p.s. We’re not all gay males here. Lesbians represent.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rick
      rick

      at the age of 51 i am amazed we have gotten this far. when i was born it was illegal for there to be gay organizations or for them to send any type of material through the mails about homosexuality.

      gays really need to learn some of the history of their own fight for rights. we got the right to the mails around the same time straight people got the right to birth control.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @Bri: Well, I know that people do change. I have more hope in the fact that people can change than I do in getting angry and writing off 52% of people in CA who voted for Prop 8.

      As a gay man who has experienced rejection and homophobia from my own parents, only to see them slowly change to be accepting, I know that change is possible. Some people will never change their minds, but our only hope is to change the minds we can and strengthen our bond with those who aren’t from our community but who support us. Which is why I cringe whenever I hear folks bash religious people and heterosexuals carte blanche. It’s ignorant to bash the many people who are both religious and heterosexual just because of who they are.

      Those who do it, I believe, don’t really want us to be free. These people think in outdated modes and have outdated beliefs about the society we live in. People on our side like to talk about how nice it will be when the homophobes “die off”, but I’d be just as happy when the haters in our community die off as well.

      The LGBT/Straight Ally community that is emerging has no place for folks on either side who see only in black and white terms.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @vernonvanderbilt:

      Go back up and read the thread again. There’s a little bit more there than what you remember.

      But really my beef is with the argument that anyone who favours non-violence is a traitor or deluded, or too scared to get violent.
      I said just a couple of days ago that there is probably nothing the cops and our opponents would love better than for us to riot. They are more than equipped to deal with it, and it will put the finishing touches on their picture of us as a bunch of fucking lunatics.

      With the way people are turning on one another on this site do you think we are going to accomplish anything?

      May 26, 2009 at 5:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      It’s extremely arrogant of the pro-homosexual minority to assume that the majority of Americans are somehow influenced by marketing campaigns and that they heed to be ‘educated’.

      Did it ever strike you that maybe most Americans dislike homosexuality even though they tolerate it?

      Maybe your ‘gay is ok’ doctrine is now outdated?

      Maybe you are the ones who need to change and accept the truth?

      May 26, 2009 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      “Now we must turn our attention to protecting this victory. We can expect angry protests by homosexual activists, just as they protested the people’s vote last November.

      Take heart that this activity actually backfires for them.

      Support for gay marriage has declined since the election, and support for traditional marriage increased, partly because of the protests the gay community has launched.”

      Ron Prentice, Chairman
      http://www.protectmarriage.com

      May 26, 2009 at 5:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @kevin (not that one): Hey, do you think YesOn8Won will ever change their mind? ;P

      May 26, 2009 at 5:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jody
      Jody

      The more I read I read it, the more shrewd the ruling comes across. Or political.

      All couples have access to the exact same rights under California law and no majority has the right to hold a referendum to take those away. A majority can though hold a referendum to alter the name under which a minority uses to access those rights, but not the rights themselves. Which are guaranteed.

      The more I read it, the funnier it gets. After a lot of expense, The Mormons and others won the use of the term “marriage” for a few more years. The Rights of marriage, those went gradually to DPs over time in the civil code and were finally guaranteed by both last year’s and this current ruling. So it’s a hollow victory for the Prop 8 backers.

      It’s not going to stop the fighting and the arguing, though. This is as much a battle over the metaphor as much as it is the contents of that metaphor. We’ve won the the rights and, in the case of 18,000 Californians, have also won the use of the adjective.

      The final piece is only a matter of time.

      May 26, 2009 at 5:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @yeson8wo@yeson8won: GO TO HELL BIGOT!

      May 26, 2009 at 5:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Bri: Hey, do you think YesOn8Won will ever change their mind?

      When two gay guys can conceive a baby via penis/anus “intercourse” – then I might think about it.

      Until then I’m afraid homosexuals will have to remain holed up in their self-imposed cocoon of delusion.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      Once again, Kevin’s crusade is for jesus, not gay rights. THis is an entirely separate issue from the strategy pursued in response to the court’s upholding prop 8, though he’d like you to believe it’s related. It is not. He wants to derail this conversation into one of religious tolerance and, primarily, about religious morality. He has thus far failed, and hopefully will continue to.

      It is also separate from any strategy under consideration about how to win marriage rights in CA. He defends those who seek to undermine our existence, and should be rightfully exposed, esp. in this thread. He is no better than the hate mongers like yes8won and todd.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • wowjustwow
      wowjustwow

      @yeson8won: Maybe you are the ones who need to change and accept the truth?

      Perhaps. I know I turned gay after your mother blew me yesterday. Maybe I’ll turn hetero if you blow me today.

      Wanna give it a shot?

      May 26, 2009 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won:

      Why are you so obsessed with sex?
      Why are you so obsessed with gay men in particular? I’m not a gay man, so what’s your point?

      May 26, 2009 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Herbert Wassinger
      Herbert Wassinger

      DO NOT RIOT. (PREVIOUS MESSAGE RETRACTED). But a true game plan is needed here.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won: by the way, it’s called “anal intercourse” Say it with me now.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @Bri: LOL! I’m not sure if Yeson8 is even a real person or just another sock puppet of someone who likes to come here and stir up the pot.

      I think everyone is capable of change, but not everyone is willing. Big difference.

      I think there are some people whose religious views are destructive and that they’ll never change because they put “the law” above “the love”. Plus, we know how instilled homophobia is in people. I actually does help when people who are under the influence of homophobic religious/cultural beliefs seperate themselves from that – a bit like a recovering alcoholic staying out of bars.

      The good news is that those folks we call fundamentalists – those who see only in black and white and segregate themselves from the “wicked” – are a minority. The better news is that we are in the midst of a new Reformation within the Christian Church – and I suspect it’s affecting Judaism and Islam – that is growing to accept LGBTs. Consider that 40 years ago, 65% of Christians believed that the bible was the literal word of God. Now, only about 25% believe that. That’s a huge change.

      40 years ago, gays being ordained in the mainline denominations or even married wasn’t even thought of. Now, it’s becoming more accepted.

      The times are changing, so let that temper your anger over this injustice that has affected us today.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mark
      mark

      MORMONS

      You F*CKED with the WRONG families.
      We will bankrupt the state of Utah and every f*ckin Mormon owned business that attacked us.
      Rick Warren …..don’t think we forgot about you dickwad!

      May 26, 2009 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      it’s called butt fucking, bri. Butt fucking.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: I’ve read the entire thread, dear. I’m just wondering what statement(s) specifically you’re referring to. I know what I said, because I am consistent in my fundamental beliefs. If you’re referring to statements made by others, well, I cannot speak for them. I know that not everyone is as thoughtful, lucid, and well-spoken (written) as myself. If I agree with them in theory, I try not to hold it against them too much.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      tank: He is no better than the hate mongers like yes8won and todd.

      I’m no hate-monger, I just tell the truth.

      Why don’t you condemn the real hate mongers on here such as:

      wowjustwow: Perhaps. I know I turned gay after your mother blew me yesterday. Maybe I’ll turn hetero if you blow me today.

      Lance Rockland: @yeson8won: Eat my dick.

      rick: @yeson8won: GOOD LORD A FLAMING RIGHT WING ASSHOLE JUST HERE TO STIR UP TROUBLE. GO FOCUS ON YOUR RIGHT WING RELIGIOUS IN THE CLOSET WEBSITES LIKE FOCUS ON THE FAMILY.
      @yeson8won: why do right wing assholes hang out on gay sites to bash gays?

      vernonvanderbilt: Fuck you in the ass with a splintery crucifix, you bloated, bigoted piece of shit. I hope you choke.

      The fact you don’t condemn these hateful comments underlines your bigotry.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      mark: MORMONS. You F*CKED with the WRONG families.
      We will bankrupt the state of Utah and every f*ckin Mormon owned business that attacked us.
      Rick Warren …..don’t think we forgot about you dickwad!

      Mark you are a hateful christiophobic bigot

      May 26, 2009 at 6:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @yeson8won: You’re an ass. The world would be a better, more beautiful place if you and your kind died slow, agonizing deaths.

      Want more hate? I’ve got a lifetime of it stored up for you and your ilk.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • wowjustwow
      wowjustwow

      @yeson8won: So your answer is “no”, right?

      May 26, 2009 at 6:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @kevin (not that one): Have people really been caught here posing as haters?

      @TANK: Oh that’s way too crass for our friend Yeson8Won here. I was just trying to help them along since they were having a little difficulty.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @vernonvanderbilt: Let’s see if tank, and all the other loving tolerant homosexual activists, condemn your hatred.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @yeson8won: We’ll be waiting a while, cunt. But, to pass the time, you could tie a noose and start practicing hanging yourself.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      Holy shit, I just looked at the day of decision website and in the past several hours something like 13 rallies across 7 more states have been added. That’s what I call momentum.

      this is what it looks like now:

      117 Total Day of Decision City Events:
      115 U.S. City events
      +2 Canadian City events
      32 States + D.C.
      55+ California City events

      May 26, 2009 at 6:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      65% of Christians believed that the bible was the literal word of God. Now, only about 25% believe that. That’s a huge change.

      Lies. First, 77% of americans identify as christian today, down from 91% in 1948.

      According to gallup, which has been tracking religious attitudes in american for 55 years, 35% of americans believe that the bible is the literal, inerrant word of god. 48% of americans believe that bible is the INSPIRED and INERRANT word of god. Only 17% of americans have doubts about whether or not god wrote the bible directly or indirectly. 46% of americans take a literalist view of creation (genesis), whereas 40% of americans believe that god guided “his creation” over millions of years (re: hitchens response to this is priceless…waited for billions of years for people to come around…not intervention as they suffered until they evolved into US and then WHAM…then he chooses to reveal himself). 230 million americans believe that the bible was written by an omniscient, omnibenevlot and omnipotent god…frightening.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @yeson8won:

      You are a hate monger. I’m just telling the truth.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @Bri: Um, let’s just say it’s a hunch. Some people who’ve posted in the past have been caught sock puppeting before and I know it happens. It’s kinda weird.

      FYI: Here’s the link to a non-violent act of civil disobedience that happened in SF today:
      http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/26/BAT817R2QD.DTL&tsp=1

      Notice, that no one “rioted”. There were a few anti-gay fundamentalists present – which wasn’t a surprise. Can we change their minds? I don’t know. But I’ll talk to them if I can. The ones who are dead-set in their thinking aren’t worth talking to, but it’s better to laugh at them rather than to shout them down, as one person obviously tried to do.

      Remember folks, these fundamentalists NEED, NEED, NEED to feel that they are “God’s Persecuted Chosen People” – so intimidating them and getting in their face isn’t necessarily the best strategy for diffusing the situation.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @TANK:

      Then he chose to reveal himself about five thousand or so years ago…

      May 26, 2009 at 6:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      tank: sorry but I’m afraid your fellow homosexuals are the ones displaying intolerance and hatred.

      The people have spoken, now you have to learn to live with it

      May 26, 2009 at 6:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      Kevin’s strategy is to do nothing in response to those who hate us. “Love” and some other empty platitudes that sound good but offer nothing by way of change or substantive protest. Ignore him. He is a liar and more concerned with defending religion than gay rights. I doubt, in fact, that he’s even gay…

      May 26, 2009 at 6:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @blake: Obot

      May 26, 2009 at 6:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @TANK: That’s odd.

      The poll Gallup took 3 years ago doesn’t correspond to your figures:

      http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=10618

      BTW, what do you care? You must have Kapo-on-the-demented-brain.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @yeson8won:

      First, you say the truth is faith. That’s not the truth, it’s your faith. No matter how much you want something to be true has no connection to its actual truth. So when you say you’re just preaching the truth with your hate filled value judgments, they’re just want you believe is true or want to be true; but are nonetheless false. You want to believe that we’re the bigots and that your antigay virulent homophobia is something more than just your belief with no connection to reality…but it’s clearly false, and you’re obviously not going to get any support on this website from anyone other than people like kevin, who share your faith.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      Tank/Yeson8won same person?

      Anyway, here’s that Gallup Poll: 28% only believe bible to be literal:
      http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=10618

      May 26, 2009 at 6:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      tank: No matter how much you want something to be true has no connection to its actual truth. So when you say you’re just preaching the truth with your hate filled value judgments, they’re just want you believe is true or want to be true; but are nonetheless false.

      That is a perfect summary of the homosexuals’ case.

      No much how you try to force others to accept your deviance and immorality it won’t make it ‘true’.

      You can see all the hate-filled attacks on me on this forum alone. Homosexuals can be bigots too.

      I have no expectation of receiving much support on this forum but it’s still good that you and your co-activists get to hear the voice of the righteous majority.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @yeson8won:

      And what’s even funnier about this dunce’s rhetorical devices and propaganda tactics (e.g., appropriating the oppressed’s discrimination for the oppressor in accusing the oppressed of being the oppressor or simply calling gay people bashers or heterophobic or intolerant of christian intolerance), is that if muslims were to become a supermajority in this country, and he opposed sharia law or being subject to it, his detractors would label him a bigot and hate monger just as this bully is trying to do now. This is tragically transparent…and artless.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      The propaganda tactic is tried and true, however. It worked for the nazis and countless others throughout history (repeat a lie so much it is, at first, received like a value judgment and then later a fact), and will continue to work if given how susceptible humans are to memes (ideas as diseases or harmful parasites).

      But it’s also basic. Notice he won’t back down, either. HE will continue to repeat himself and post over and over again, telling that lie. It’s like county fair politicking 101, driven by both masochism and a desire to be somehow relevant in being “controversial”. He wouldn’t be happy at wingnut daily or amongst a group of fellow travellers. HE needs to be in the fray…no matter what the topic, he desires martyrdom, making his accusations all the more self fulfilling.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @Schteve: they’re never gonna join your side dum-dum. stop being such a whiny little ass-kiss. straight people can’t stand fags like you.

      Lobby against Barky & ME-chelle’s Inter-racial marriage rights!

      Strip their rights away from them! Elitist snobs that they are.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      Tank/Yeson8won = same person.

      Gallup Poll showing only 28% believe bible is literal:
      http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=10618

      May 26, 2009 at 6:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @vernonvanderbilt:

      Look Vernon, I didn’t post that question as a direct attack on you, but since you’re asking your post #179 seems like a pretty clear invitation for other people to do something which you are not willing to do yourself.

      I don’t need an explanation from you; that’s for you to square with your own values.

      But speaking generally it pisses me off that people are ridiculing and getting angry at those who have done the non-violent work that has gotten us this far.

      Did violence or the threat of it gain victories in the states where marriage equality is recognized? Did it have anything to do with the ground gained so far in the fight in California?

      Yet we have a bunch of macho bullies with a romantic image of violence, terror and destruction – none of whom I expect have any experience or conception of actual insurrection, and none of whom have the guts to actually DO ANYTHING except talk about it and undercut the work that has gotten us this far.

      as far as I am concerned the only effective way to get our rights is through non-violence. Whether you boys are just talking out your asses, or whether some fool is going to take you seriously and actually commit some horrible act, the only thing you are going to accomplish is to fuck things up for all of us and undo the work that has already been done.

      May 26, 2009 at 6:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      What do the California Supremes and Barak Obama have in common?

      They both pander to bigots. Obama to get elected and the Supremes so they won’t get recalled.

      They won’t stop pandering and won’t stop denying us equality unless we escalate the pressure by breaking from both parties of bigotry, organizing our own communities and pressing the fight. Mass marches are the method of choice.

      They and the bigots they pander to have to be cowed. Accommodating to the agenda of bigots like Obama and electing him or a Republican bigot are loser strategies.

      “Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and rebellion.” Oscar Wilde

      May 26, 2009 at 7:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @yeson8won:
      Religion, whether it’s based on christer, judaic or islamist superstition and lies is the implacable enemy of equality and democracy.

      The revolutionaries who founded this country certainly thought so.

      “Christianity…(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man.” Thomas Jefferson

      “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? …superstition, bigotry, and persecution.” James Madison

      “Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity” Thomas Paine

      “Lighthouses are more useful than churches.” Benjamin Franklin

      People who embrace religion like Obama, christers and the owners of the Democrat and Republican parties are not just the enemies of GLBT folks; they’re enemies of the guiding principles of the American Revolution.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @Bill Perdue:

      Bill, homosexuals can be bigots too, just read a few of the hate-filled comments on this forum.

      bigot = a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others.

      Homosexuals are experts in delusion, including the fallacy that they have a monopoly on calling others ‘bigots’.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ted
      ted

      @Katie: shut this old mommy up

      May 26, 2009 at 7:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @Bill Perdue:

      Remember the prophetic words of John Adams:

      “We have no government armed in power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion.

      Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.”

      May 26, 2009 at 7:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darrien
      Darrien

      @yeson8won: If you look at all the countries in the world that have given equal rights to gays, their cultures haven’t crumbled. Their churches aren’t less full, families haven’t started falling apart, divorce rates haven’t increased appreciably and the level of sin is no greater.

      You say you’re motivated by some religious belief, but it’s time you admitted that you’re mostly motivated by an insubstantial fear that you don’t understand. It’s not a fear of sex and it’s not even a fear of gay men and lesbians. You’re scared of the future and you’re scared of the unknown. Irrespective of what seven judges did today, in the greater history, it probably won’t even register as a footnote.

      Ultimately, equality will be given to gays and lesbians because it’s the right and just thing to do. You can claim victimhood on this site as much as you want, but the simple fact remains that you’re celebrating keeping a substantial number of your countrymen second-class citizens. And that’s just not right or justifiable, even in the Bible.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @TANK: repeat a lie so much it is, at first, received like a value judgment and then later a fact

      That is EXACTLY what the homosexuals are doing with their assertion that ‘it’s ok to be gay’.

      You have made a lot of progress with this fallacy but the time has come to call a halt, just as we did to the Nazis and their propaganda.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      I love CNN is saying “HUNDREDS” are protesting LOL, and how Barky is all over the TV with his biiiiiiiig UGLY smile patting himself on the back for Judge Sonia Soatwhateverthefuckhernameis. Wow what a BIIIG story that is. Thanks MSM!

      May 26, 2009 at 7:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      I love how there are people on twitter saying “vote no on prop 8″

      Umm, you guys, voting is over.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @getreal: action like what? giving money to useless ineffective groups like No on 8 who critisize everyone and their mothers except Barky? ineffectual. i need my money, i don’t need to support No on 8 and Joe Solomenese limo rides to dinners where he does nothing but shovel food in his mouth.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JudgeIto
      JudgeIto

      Have been through the Prop 8 opinion and dissents. It appears that this is a blockbuster pro-gay-rights decision, restricting the effect of Prop 8 to the effect of removing the designation of gay civil unions as “marriage,” but upholding all equal rights previously declared by the Court; and, suggesting that if the opponents of gay rights were to try to restrict equal union rights for gays by constitutional change, such change would be an Amendment (not a revision) and thus would be procedurally much more difficult to accomplish.

      Being able to lay claim to the word “marriage” is important, but in all other respects this appears to be a spectacular decision in favor of gay rights.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      judgeito: Being able to lay claim to the word “marriage” is important, but in all other respects this appears to be a spectacular decision in favor of gay rights.

      In a sense you are right.

      Homosexuals already had all the same rights as normal people, and more in some instances.

      Their failed attempt to violate traditional marriage and rob We The People of our civil right to decide the definition of marriage was all about grandstanding.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @yeson8won: We’ve had two revolutions in this country so far; 1776 and 1865.

      The bigot offensive launched agianst us by you christers combined with unending oil and resource wars and economic collapse may produce a third American Revolution.

      It that occurs christer, judaic and islamist bigots like you will get a chance to see what our righteous hated of religious bigots is capable of. Ouyr goal will not be to murder, harass and commit physical violence like you folks but to provide re-eduction and anti-psychotics to cure relilgious people and incarceration for irreconcilable religious bigots.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @Bill Perdue:

      Thanks for proving that the homosexuals are far more INTOLERANT and BIGOTED than their opponents.

      Keep up that hateful nazi rhetoric, it helps our side immensely!

      Are you going out tonight to vandalise some ‘christer’ churches and beat up some old ladies in Palm Springs?

      May 26, 2009 at 7:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @getreal: yeah, i’m gonna get off my fat ass and go knock the my neighbors door and ask them to support gay rights.

      what an idiot.

      the way you get civil rights is by demanding them.

      blacks threaten riots even if Don Imus doesn’t walk a straight line … and you want gays to go ring doorbells like Jehovah’s Witnesses. do us all a favor and go take a loooooong walk.

      Holy shit, glad I didn’t give a one red penny to No on 8 or the HRC or any one of these complacent jag off orgs. if this is the garbage these people are spewing at No on 8 … all I can say is wow.

      Go ring doorbells gays!

      What a bunch of hippie dum-dums.

      May 26, 2009 at 7:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @fitc: So what actions are you taking and have taken in order to get your civil rights? Give us a few examples, won’t you?

      May 26, 2009 at 7:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      FITC: the way you get civil rights is by demanding them.

      Fact is homosexuals have all the same rights as normal people.

      They demanded the right to redefine marriage in 2000 and again last November.

      Both times We The People said “NO!”

      May 26, 2009 at 7:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @yeson8won: did you know how many soldiers are rapists in our military? it’s astounding how many of these solider-pigs in the military are rapists. the Pentagon released the stats of all rapist-soldiers this past march. i’m so happy they are sending all those straight boys to Afghanistan. i hope they all kill each other. please, send more straight men to the army! and keep kicking out our gay brothers and sisters, that is god’s justice.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @yeson8won: why do straight men rape? what’s wrong with those freaks? they should all get the chair. or i would love to personally lodge bullets in their brains.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      FITC you didn’t answer my question.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @yeson8won: for starters … place some responsibility on the shoulders of BO. until queers figure out where to make demands they will forever be standing outside of court houses effecting ZERO change …

      May 26, 2009 at 8:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thom Freeheart
      Thom Freeheart

      “The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society.” –Thomas Jefferson

      May 26, 2009 at 8:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: Whatever. I plainly said in the post you referred to that “(i)f anyone in California wants to smash some windows and burn some cars today…I encourage them to do so.” I don’t see where you get the idea that it isn’t something I would do myself.

      I also said this: “If we inject a little fear into their equation, then they reconsider victimizing us in the future.”

      Their equation paints us as ineffectual, pacifist doormats who will not stand up for ourselves and bring the fight to our enemies. If we introduce a tinge of fear into their world-views, it changes the rules of the game and gives us the advantage.

      I also said this: “The pacifist approach, though it may work given enough time, is ineffectual in the short-term, if not outright damaging.”

      I never said the pacifist approach doesn’t work, only that it takes a long time to work. It is, indeed, ineffectual in the short-term, because it is based entirely on waiting patiently for rights to be given, rather than taking direct action and demanding the equality we deserve right now. Pacifism works a lot better when people see what the alternative is. It’s us radicals that get things done because of our “extremism.”

      Why, you may ask? Here’s the answer. Radicals are seen as dangerous, destructive, and a little (or a lot) crazy. We shake things up, cause a ruckus, and light a fire, and our enemies quake a little. That’s when you pacifist mainstreamers step in and “save the day.” The enemy is so relieved to hear someone speaking “rationally” that they are more inclined to listen to the message being delivered. But that fear…that’s a healthy motivator for them, always in the back of their minds. They deal with people like you to get people like me to sit down and shut up. That’s the way it is. If being seen as irrational will result in equality for myself and my people, then I’m more than willing to be the bad guy for either side. That is true heroism, not marching down a police-cordoned street, chanting pithy slogans and waving placards and begging, please, pretty please, treat us like human beings.

      “But speaking generally it pisses me off that people are ridiculing and getting angry at those who have done the non-violent work that has gotten us this far.”

      And, speaking generally, it pisses me off that people are ridiculing and getting angry at those of us who have done the work of keeping the roots of the movement alive. Stonewall was a riot, not a group hug. Let’s not forget that.

      “Did violence or the threat of it gain victories in the states where marriage equality is recognized?”

      Of course not, because it was not necessary. We’re talking about some generally liberal places. Come to Ohio and see what peaceful protest gets you: a pat on the head, maybe a tiny blurb buried on page ten of the paper, and a whole lot of nothing.

      “Did it have anything to do with the ground gained so far in the fight in California?”

      It also had nothing to do with the ground lost in California. That’s all on you guys.

      “Whether you boys are just talking out your asses, or whether some fool is going to take you seriously and actually commit some horrible act, the only thing you are going to accomplish is to fuck things up for all of us and undo the work that has already been done.”

      Horrible is relative. Every hero is someone else’s villain. Show me where a little property destruction and/or light violence has undone our work for equality. It hasn’t. At all. and it never will, because in the end, it is necessary, just as pacifism is. You can’t have a one-pronged fork and expect to hold onto anything for very long. California proves that.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @fitc: I take it you meant to reply to me. “place some responsibility” How? What have you *done*? Since you criticize so many it’s only fair that you share your own great achievements.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @Bri: Obot

      May 26, 2009 at 8:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      I have to say … so many of us are upset when gay people get thrown out of the army and I am silently thrilled that they are saving their lives and leaving all of the straight boys to kill each other is this racist war for oil that Barack has expanded, instead of ending like he said he would. Let’s the straight people kill themselves for Barack’s war.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @fitc: Co-sign on that one.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @fitc: Ah, I see. So you’ve done nothing. But yet, you criticize people when they DO take action – like by door to door canvassing. You say “demand your rights” but offer no suggestions as to how to do so. You won’t answer when asked what it is that you’ve done. Wow, what a revolutionary.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      The BIIIIIIIIIG story of the day is not Baracks BIIIIIIIIIGGG FAKE smile , it’s the the spanish lady Sonia Sotowhateverthefuckhernameis! that’s a BIIIIIIIIG story for Barack. He’s so high minded.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • FairGamer
      FairGamer

      People, please do not feed the trolls like yeson8won.

      Let them go back to their little troll lairs, with their little troll families and feed on their little troll meals (usually consisting of puppies of children).

      You cannot honestly get angry with something that doesn’t even have the common sense to believe in facts like evolution. To allow an organism such as that to get under your skin would be like getting angry at dog shit for smelling foul.

      Why waste the energy?

      May 26, 2009 at 8:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @vernonvanderbilt:

      “Radicals are seen as dangerous, destructive, and a little (or a lot) crazy. We shake things up, cause a ruckus, and light a fire, and our enemies quake a little.”

      Oh give me a fucking break. Did you get that off the cover of a New Kids on the Block album?

      Like I said, it’s romantic posturing and bullshit. The people yapping about terrorizing our enemies are not going to do anything but yap, and they should just stop criticizing the people who are doing the real work, or grow up and get to work themselves.

      Violence, terror and coercion had no part whatsoever in our struggle for marriage equality here in Canada, and I have yet to hear any example of how it did anything down south there except give the cops a chance to practice crowd control routines.

      There is such a thing as social change through violent means, but believe me if any of you actually got your shit together enough to threaten the powers that be you’d probably wind up as a grease spot, and you’d do nothing to further our cause.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      I wonder if Barky and ME-chelle are going to go for a stroll holding hands tonight. I can’t wait to see what she’s wearing!

      May 26, 2009 at 8:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @strumpetwindsock:

      You have no argument. This is just your opinion.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: You know, it must be nice to live up in Canada, where your rights are handed out all willy-nilly because gods forbid someone should say or do something to offend someone else. I think it’s wonderful that you and all the other Canadian homos get to live in a magical dreamworld where freedom is a given. Here on the ground, sometimes you have to fight (literally) to get what you deserve. So, even though I happen to love Canada and think it’s a wonderful place…fuck Canada. This is America we’re talking about, and it’s a completely different arena.

      Furthermore, I have been trying since coming to this thread today to demonstrate that your side, the polite, patient beggars, is just as useful as the side that cares enough to do what really needs to be done. You’re the one who’s trying to write off a small (but vital) segment of our population by accusing them of “romantic posturing.” Here’s a newsflash, kid…no one’s twisting your arm on this. You can hold hands and sing Kumbayah with the ‘phobes til the cows come home for all I care. I’m simply inclined to think that sabotaging their homes and businesses is quite lovely as well. To-may-to, to-mah-to.

      Stop being defensive and admit that I have a valid point. Then we can get on with this.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @FairGamer:

      Another hateful, intolerant homosexual? Shurely not??

      Why is ‘evolution’ an issue here?

      When ‘evolution’ brings us to two homosexual men making babies via penis/anal sex then I will support homosexual marriage.

      Until then no evolution has taken place.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      right-wing, libertarian, christian, hetero condolences. you guys, gals and otherwise deserve better.

      i don’t know when some people are going to wake up and realize that equality for all really means ALL.

      yet another crappy day for civil rights. we’ll get there, though. it’s of little comfort now, but we’ll get there. we always do. it just takes time for simple minds to change.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won: Again, it’s called anal intercourse. “Penis/anal sex”…wtf?

      And again, what is with your focus on gay men and sex?

      May 26, 2009 at 8:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      pz: i don’t know when some people are going to wake up and realize that equality for all really means ALL.

      Homosexual activists really need to wake up and face reality. You would be far better off campaigning for a redefinition of marriage instead of this bogus and misleading ‘civil rights’ theme.

      Seriously nobody falls for this fallacious argument, you have to try something else.

      Homosexuals already have equal rights, including the right to marry and have civil unions. In many branches of law homosexuals get not just equality but preferential treatment.

      The vast majority of African Americans reject homosexual comparison with their noble struggle.

      Homosexuals have never been enslaved, denied the vote, segregated at school etc etc.

      May 26, 2009 at 8:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The_FNG
      The_FNG

      @Todd: Bible = Mythology

      May 26, 2009 at 8:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Bri: And again, what is with your focus on gay men and sex?

      The focus is created by your side.

      If you didn’t want to have sex with your same sex then this issue wouldn’t exist!

      May 26, 2009 at 8:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won: Who is talking about sex? You can’t stop people from having sex. We’re talking about marriage and the legal benefits that result from it, so I don’t know what the fuck that has to do with sex and why you are bringing it up.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @fitc: Just like I thought organizing, phonebanking, canvassing is how Obama won the election and there are many marriage equality organizations who have decided to use the same formula and the numbers are moving.If you want to be a do nothing who sits on his ass and tries to incite people to acts of violence as you sit in front of your computer and do nothing so be it. I will ignore your infantile posts from now on since you are not interested in being part of the solution you are irrelevant.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @Bri: wait, I know why you bring it up. it is because you are OBSESSED WITH GAY SEX.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @vernonvanderbilt:
      Actually people did work to secure marriage equality up here. We did have the good fortune of our political system, but nothing was just “handed out”. You might want to read up on how it was done.

      But if we are in dreamland and you’re living in the real world tell me how violence has done anything to secure your rights. How many buildings did they torch in Iowa and New Hampshire? For that matter how many little old ladies had to get beaten up to secure the 18,000 marriages you have recognized in California, as well as the latest ruling which is not entirely a disaster?

      Change in the real world involves something a little more sophisticated than branding your opponents evil and deciding you have to make them afraid of you to make them vote to recognize their rights.

      Talking to them might actually tax your resources, but I think it might be a bit more effective than leaving burning bags of shit on their front steps.

      @TANK:
      Do you think if the cops actually took your rants about killing the kapos seriously you wouldn’t be in an interrogation room right now?
      All your rants here are nothing but big talk.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @yeson8won:

      first of all, I don’t think I qualify as a homosexual activist. i am one of the quiet persons who sits by while evil is done to someone else.

      second, the fact that other groups who had their civil rights violated, such as African Americans, don’t necessarily support gay rights doesn’t weaken the argument for said rights.

      third, it is patently ridiculous to imply that homosexuals have equal, and even preferential, rights.

      fourth, why I am even allowing myself to respond to you is baffling.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @getreal: the way Barky won was because of a corrupt lying MSM … get real getreal

      May 26, 2009 at 9:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      The media elected Barack

      May 26, 2009 at 9:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @Bri: specifically the guy on guy kind. because as we all know, women don’t ever have sex with each other. *rolls eyes*

      May 26, 2009 at 9:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @getreal: delusional Obot

      May 26, 2009 at 9:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      I think we should leave the Bible out of this from both sides. Christians who “hate the sin, but love the sinner,” are amongst the most misguided of all Christians.

      I know many Christians who support gay marriage, and I am one of them. Just because the ones who show up in Internet comment sections and television shows are outrageous and stupid homophobes doesn’t mean that we should paint all Christians that way.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BIGOT OBAMA THE DEMOCRAT
      BIGOT OBAMA THE DEMOCRAT

      I love how the Obots are still blaming republicans lol

      May 26, 2009 at 9:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      With regard to the yeson8 person. This is just someone looking for attention most of these bigots who come to this site to argue with people don’t even have any reasoning behind their bigotry they just want to feel important. They post outrageous things for attention so they can have a way to vent their anger and powerlessness. I say don’t even read his vile posts we all know he is a misguided idiot so really why dignify his drivel with a response that is really the only way to get the goat of prejudiced people like him. Treat them like what they are just so much dirt on the bottom of your shoes something to brush off and ignore.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BIGOT OBAMA THE DEMOCRAT
      BIGOT OBAMA THE DEMOCRAT

      It’s me Barky here … thank you gays for continuing to blame rush limbaugh and mormons and republcians … and hey if you have a minute … figure out how to bring Sarah Palin and her retard kid into this. I LOVE when you guys make fun of retard babies. See, we here in the white house know that it’s both democrats and republicans who discriminate against queers … can you hear my fake southern accent? .. yeah, and we all know that I spoke to my constituency for TWO years telling them I am against you having civil rights, even though I am a product of inter-racial marriage.

      It was half of my constituency that was the deciding factor in passing Prop 8. The Unity party. Democrats … yeah US! DEMOCRATS voted on hateful anti-gay discrimination.

      So you dum-dums keep blaming republicans. I love it that you’re so easy to fool.

      Hey go have a drink on me! We know you gays LOVE to drink your asses off. AA here we come!

      May 26, 2009 at 9:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @strumpetwindsock:

      You’re talking about state by state initiatives; nothing at the federal level. And our victories? Pathetic in total contrasted with our defeats and the actual protections we have federally and on a state by state basis. Pathetic. Your route hasn’t worked, and hasn’t worked for the agencies like the HRC, etc. Useless.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @pz: Exactly. My christianity has everything to do with why I am a gay rights activist. Just because some ignorant people use religion to rationalize their bigotry doesn’t make all people of faith in their category.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @BIGOT OBAMA THE DEMOCRAT: FITC you are a piece of work.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @getreal:

      And for everyone like you, there’s many many more whose christianity is the reason why they oppose gay rights. You provide cover and legitimacy to them.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @strumpetwindsock: I already told you why no one had to resort to violence in those places. It’s because those places were already doing the right thing. They are anomalous. There are plenty of places here in America where the Pollyanna approach cannot succeed. Obviously, California is one of them.

      As far as the “beating up a little, old lady” incident…watch the video. She was not beaten up. Intimidated a little, yes…shouted down, certainly…as far as I’m concerned, bitch got off light. She deserved a lot more than she got.

      And, seriously, talk to the ‘phobes? I don’t make it a habit to engage in futile exercises. The vast majority of them cannot be reasoned with. The only way they’ll stop believing what they believe and doing what they do it if they die. The sooner the better, in my opinion. There’s a huge difference between the fence-sitters and the hardcore ‘phobes. You really think a sit-down chat and a cup of tea is going to sway the likes of Maggie Gallagher or James Dobson? Go ahead and try, but I’m not mopping up when you’re done. You just need to face facts and accept that a huge chunk of people are not merely our enemies today, but are our enemies for life, and nothing we say or do will change that. Putting them out of our misery would be the most noble thing we could do.

      I really can’t wait til the last boomer dies. That’s when we’ll start seeing real progress.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Freedom09
      Freedom09

      Hey Tank
      what’s the plan for tonight?

      May 26, 2009 at 9:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Schteve
      Schteve

      @MichaelSchott, PhD: You know there ARE candidates other than those of the two main parties, right? I hate when people refuse to vote for a third-party candidate for the sole reason that the vote won’t matter. As if their singular vote for a mainstream candidate makes any difference either.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      Does anyone know if there is some live stream of what is going down in California?

      May 26, 2009 at 9:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BIGOT OBAMA THE DEMOCRAT
      BIGOT OBAMA THE DEMOCRAT

      @TANK: And for everyone like you, there’s many many more whose christianity is the reason why they oppose gay rights. You provide cover and legitimacy to them.

      PREACH IT, TANK!

      May 26, 2009 at 9:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Schteve
      Schteve

      @Phil: I doubt that’s going to offend him much, given that he is happy perverts like us have to right to marry his mother, wife, and daughter.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Schteve
      Schteve

      @fitc: As if anyone is going to support your proposal?

      No, I don’t expect those avowedly against same-sex marriage to suddenly jump ship and support our side. What I do expect is for older voters who overwhelmingly oppose it to die off, for younger people who overwhelmingly support it to come of voting age, and for that small percentage of people who are still undecided to reassess their positions.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • bobspice
      bobspice

      A reminder if you are in LA:

      Prop 8: Day of Decision Rally

      Time: 7:00 pm this evening, May 26th
      Place: 647 N. San Vicente Boulevard
      Santa Monica and San Vicente Blvd
      West Hollywood

      May 26, 2009 at 9:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Lesbian Mafia
      The Lesbian Mafia

      bottom line is we’re all angry … and we fight amongst each other out of frustration and anger … it’s the way it’s always been … we decompress on each other because most of us really don’t know who to aim at … they’re contantly moving the target and passing the buck to confuse us …

      some of us know that leadership starts at the top …

      just as it did in Spain …

      now THAT is a leader I would vote for.

      Spain anyone?

      May 26, 2009 at 9:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @bobspice: Do you know if anybody is tweeting about it? I’ve been following MBStannard who is a reporter for a San Francisco newspaper or something, he’s been giving updates all day.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @Bri: going to be tweeting about it, I mean.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @TANK: I provide cover for no one. I’m a Christian who supports gay rights and who opposes Christians who don’t. The issue of gay rights has nothing to do with the validity of my faith. I’ve made a decision for faith based on reason, and I cannot dispel it simply because others of my faith are narrow-minded.

      Christianity political and socialogical beliefs.

      The freedom of Christ transcends the narrow-mindedness of His followers.

      Now, I’ll take my leave of the Christian side of this argument. Much like the argument some Christians use against gay marriage, the idea that the bigotry of some Christians invalidates faith is simply untenable.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Freedom09
      Freedom09

      … they’re contantly moving the target and passing the buck to confuse us … We’re so easily confused. What’s confusing is why so many people, who are living within miles of a protest, who have spent the entire day here making comments, aren’t going? Need some help: http://www.equalitycentral.org/dayofdecision. Obama, Jesus, boomers, everyone is to blame. Here’s a fact to mull over: the difference in the Prop 8 vote was 600,00 votes. That’s not exactly a landslide.
      It was handled badly. They kept confusing us by passing the buck and moving the target, right? We lost the election. Today’s vote was not about Prop.8 but about legality. It is the not the end of the world. If things get handled better, if we organize, get money, and do a better job of making our cause, making up that vote should not be that difficult. So while its fun to banter, its also quite pointless: no one’s mind is ever changed in a blog comment forum. If you can’t make it to a rally, write to your representatives, send money to organizations that will do your bidding. If you’re unhappy with them, start one of your own. Be proactive, not just a chronic commenter.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MNSportsFan
      MNSportsFan

      YESON8WON:

      I take issue with you inplying that gay people aren’t “normal”. Last I checked, which consenting adult I choose to have a relationship with and marry isn’t the determinant of what’s “normal” in our society. Nor is it really any of your business or anyone else’s. I’m not intolerant of religion at all – I’m agnostic, but I respect other people’s faith. That said, I think faith should be a personal thing one uses to govern their own actions and behavior, not a weapon to enforce actions and behavior in others.If you really believe the things you say you do, then you’ll accept that I, my boyfriend, and any other gay/lesbian people will be judged at the end by God, and that there’s no need for you to do so for him. To think you can do God’s job for him is, to me anyway, a little arrogant and presumptious.

      The day I really can’t wait for is the day when it’s proven inconclusively that being gay is genetic. The religious argument will have absolutely no weight at all anymore at that point, since they all argue that God creates all people the way he wants them. Of course, anyone that’s gay and has lived the life I or many others have knows it’s not a choice, but they’ll cling to that with everything they have because it’s all they’ve got. Until that day comes, I’ll continue to fight for the inevitable, because even a general study of this nation’s history will teach anyone that in terms of social policy, progressive ideas ALWAYS win in the end.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      Would the CA Supreme Court have ruled in favor of a proposition that sought to take rights away from blacks? I doubt it.

      What we have is a Supreme Court which is playing politics with our lives.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      Do you seriously think gay men are going to spend money to organize a new ballot initiative? Darling, gay men are more likely to spend their money on leather jock straps and amyl. Sad but true.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @MNSportsFan: “The day I really can’t wait for is the day when it’s proven inconclusively that being gay is genetic.”

      Don’t get your hopes up. They will just call it a mutation and call for our extermination, you know, since we aren’t “normal” and all.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Freedom09
      Freedom09

      The voters aren’t able to decide that murder is OK, right? Or to reinstate slavery? So why can they take away the right for same-sex couples to marry?

      California’s Constitution gives its voters broad authority to change state law, and they could, if they wanted, repeal all of the state’s anti-murder criminal laws, the same way they decriminalized marijuana use for medicinal purposes, UC Davis law professor Vikram D. Amar wrote in an e-mail. But voters would not be able to reinstate slavery because that is forbidden by the U.S. Constitution. “We really have two backdrop safety nets: the U.S. Constitution, and the (general) common sense of the people not to do anything TOO stupid or mean, Prop. 8 notwithstanding,” Amar wrote in an e-mail.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      As sad as today is it is a jumping off point the No on 8 campaign proved that it is going to take grassroots organizing in every community. We need to let go of the rally culture. I think the entitled idea that politicians are going to hand people their rights without work on their is childish. Unfortunately we are going to have to lay the ground work moving public opinion through outreach and education among other things. It is going to take that level of commitment from people to make a federal equality amendment a reality. Apathy, attacking each other and finger point is no substitute for action. Go to Day of Decision’s website to find out what events are happening in your area to get plugged in to do work in this movement or sit on your ass flap your gums and argue with people on the same side as you one is productive one isn’t. Maybe tomorrow but for today I have no patience for do nothings who only want to be divisive and disrupt not bring anything tangible to the table.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @MNSportsFan:

      Sadly, they are never going to prove that being gay is ALWAYS genetic. Historical patterns show that cultural acceptance does play a role. Were the ancient Greeks all genetically gay? Of course not.

      The fight for acceptance just has to keep going. It will win in the end. It always has.

      But here’s the saddest part. I still have relatives in their 90s who whisper about “colored” people.

      As frustrating as it is to live through, true acceptance is almost a generational thing. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t get the laws changed first. In fact, we must get the laws changed first. Minds will follow suit, albeit slowly, once we’ve gone the legal route.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @getreal: are you going to any of the rallies?

      May 26, 2009 at 9:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @Freedom09:

      I don’t understand how the courts failed to recognize that the u.s. constitution guarantees equal liberty for all. That should have been the saving grace here. Instead, they’ve left civil protections and equality in the hands of the voters, who are notoriously stupid.

      Does there really need to be an amendment explicity stating that every damn person has equal rights? Apparently so.

      May 26, 2009 at 9:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Schteve
      Schteve

      @jason: The majority opinion did touch on this. Of course, you first have to forget the fact that targeting a specific race would put it at odds with the federal Constitution. If you ignore that fact, however, the majority did say it would permit slight exceptions to the state equal protection clause provided they don’t have far-reaching effects. They made it pointedly clear that Proposition 8 only removed the right to the term “marriage” (which even they contended last year is important in itself). As such, they probably would allow removing a legal designation from blacks in your example (again ignoring the U.S. Constitution) insofar as they would still have the underlying substantive rights that came with it.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Now is a good time to change CA law and require a 2/3rds majority to make Co
      nstitutional Amendments.

      We should do it out of respect for the wishes of the homosexuals

      May 26, 2009 at 10:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Schteve
      Schteve

      @pz: The court didn’t fail to recognize that at all. Rather, petitioners purposefully didn’t seek to challenge this on federal constitutional grounds as that would allow the U.S. Supreme Court to have the final say. And if you think THAT court is close to approving same-sex marriage, you are mistaken. Having it hear such a case with the current justices on it would most likely spell disaster, as any ruling against us would create all the ammunition opponents need and set us back a few more decades from a successful U.S. Supreme Court challenge.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      vernonvanderbilt: a huge chunk of people are not merely our enemies today, but are our enemies for life, and nothing we say or do will change that. Putting them out of our misery would be the most noble thing we could do…………..I really can’t wait til the last boomer dies.

      Why are you homosexuals such hateful, intolerant bigots?

      May 26, 2009 at 10:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @Schteve:

      You guys are officially way over my head on constitutional law, so I’ll just stand back and watch.

      yeson8won, do you enjoy going to traffic accidents and laughing at the victims? Seems like your idea of a great time.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Freedom09
      Freedom09

      Well PZ, the fact is, in California you do have equal rights. You have exactly the same rights as any other married couple, with one exception: the use of the word marriage. That is really what this is all about: redefining the word marriage.
      My own feeling is screw the states, the Constitution should be be amended to include marriage between gay and lesbian couples, and I do mean marriage. This is not going to be easy or quick, but when you have each state making up its own rules, its complex. You can be married in one state and move and not be married in the state you moved to—that is why on a Federal level, with a Constitutional protection that declares that marriage a right. That is the work that needs to be done.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @Schteve: Bear in mind 30 states have now amended their Constitutions to protect marriage, and that number is increasing.

      This is quite different from the miscegenation debates when only 16 states still forbid interracial marriage, and several of those did not enforce the law.

      It would take an unprecedented USSC ruling to reverse that kind of momentum to protect marriage especially as the issue is so wide open.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @pz: Scteve no I don’t enjoy road accidents one bit.

      I notice you don’t condemn the hateful comments against me and ergo the majority of Americans?

      May 26, 2009 at 10:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @Freedom09:

      See, I’m late to the party and don’t know all this stuff. I just came to this site to complain about Adam Lambert not winning American Idol ; )

      Having proved conclusively that I’m a hopeless dunce, I would have to agree with you on screwing the states with a constitutional amendment. If I’m reading you correctly, the portability of your marriage rights should be a given.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Bri: I’m tabling at west hollywood day of descsion I’m actually 15 minutes late you?

      May 26, 2009 at 10:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @pz:

      The bigotry of most, and the official bigotry of the mainstream, too. Of course it invalidates the faith. It is more harmful
      than good, and has been historically as well. A religion (catholicism, for example) that criticizes contraception in desperately poor countries with exploding seroconversion rates invalidates that religion, too.

      http://www.gallup.com/poll/116491/Religiosity-Perceived-Intolerance-Gays-Lesbians.aspx

      It’s not just gay rights, but women’s rights, that are inveighed against by mainstream christianity worldwide. If christianity weren’t a toxic faith, I’d have no problem with anyone believing in it, or anything for that matter. But it is a toxic faith, and causes people to do bad things they otherwise wouldn’t do if not for their christian faith (blowing up abortion clinics, for example). Any dogma at all that, overall, causes more harm than good is invalidated by that fact alone.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @yeson8won:

      It’s not my responsibility to condemn anyone, but I do have a responsibility to stand against the unjust. I’ve made no hateful comments tonight and have tried to discourage it from others.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Freedom09
      Freedom09

      OK. Yeson8won, you’re extremely annoying and i have a little piece of rapture for you: in our lifetime it will happen. There was time in this country when women could not vote, black and white people could not marry, and hehold: they can. This moment of pure sexual bliss for you is shortlived because you in a country that is increasingly becoming familiar with gay people. It was only a few decades ago that we could be arrested for being a gay bar. Things change, and I have no doubt, do doubt that we will all be enjoying marriage, sooner than you think.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @Freedom09:

      No, that’s not true. At least not according to wikipedia’s “california domestic partnership” entry.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage

      Look under “differences from marriage”.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • FairGamer
      FairGamer

      Don’t these trolls have a same-sex partner on the side they are ignoring by being here? Truly sad.

      Though I suppose if they were of the truly religious zealots, they could go molest some children.

      At any rate, blah blah blah intolerance, blah blah blah sin, blah blah blah anal sex (tee-hee).

      “Go sell crazy some place else, we’re all stocked up.”

      May 26, 2009 at 10:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @pz: Thank you, I appreciate your civility

      May 26, 2009 at 10:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      getreal:I’m tabling at west hollywood day of descsion I’m actually 15 minutes late you?

      Hey getreal can I join you at that table? I’m sure you would like to have an alternative voice in the room to comply with your tolerant creed?

      May 26, 2009 at 10:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @Freedom09: comparisons with women and black struggles are irrelevant.

      Homosexuals have never been denied the vote nor suffered segregation at schools etc.

      Nor should they be.

      But none of that justifies the redefinition of marriage to accommodate homosexuals

      May 26, 2009 at 10:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      So one is intolerant if they don’t tolerate christian intolerance (or intolerance of any kind, for that matter). Another failed meme. ANd by tolerance, they mean acceptance. Acceptance of their bigotry. No one is obliged to tolerate another’s bigotry or intolerance. And no one is a bigot who condemns a neonazi or a klansman’s beliefs and values.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @getreal: That’s cool but you’re late! So get going. :P Come back and tell us about it.
      No, I’m not able to get out to any of them. The closest to me is in Providence, RI about a half hour away but I have no way to get there.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Freedom09
      Freedom09

      Tank
      Thanks! That is actually great information.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @TANK: So you condemn my church, which has both female and gay leadership and clergy? We also have no problems with Darwinian evolution, black people, gray people, Marians, or anyone else.

      There is a serious disconnect in logic here, between the acts of some believers and the faith itself. Anything can be used for the wrong reasons. How else do you explain 2000 years of war immediately following the words, “Love your enemies as you love yourself?”

      As I tried to state in another post, but poorly, Christianity is not its followers. If someone claimed to be an astronomer and said that the sun circled the earth and that he was willing to go to war over it, would you declare that astronomy was evil and stupid?

      In any event, good luck in your struggles. I didn’t intend to get into a theological battle here.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Everyone is welcome at any Day of Decision Rally and they are still going on everywhere. So if you can let’s all get out there and let’s expend any energy on bigots who come here for attention. They are dust in the wind they don’t exist for the equality movement they cannot stop our progress if we pull together.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rick
      rick

      the right has reduced marriage to PERMISSION TO HAVE SEX AND GET PREGNANT GRANTED BY A RELIGIOUS ENTITY. that is what they REALLY mean by traditional.

      as a 51 year old gay person i must say that if civil unions offer all the same rights and benefits, then gays should take them. during my lifetime one by one of the anti gay laws have fallen. this too shall fall but i would take any rights i could get and forget about the stupid title.

      gays can do all the same things with a civil union in regards to celebrations etc. in europe ALL marriages are civil unions that require going to the court house and then having a church service. let the bigots have their word. we all know what they claim to be tradition and history is nothing but a flat out lie, but, that is what they are good at, lying.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rick
      rick

      @yeson8won: NO, THEY JUST LOCKED PEOPLE UP IN PRISON FOR BEING GAY.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @Freedom09: hey you! why are you posting comments on a blog! go do something. you are part of the problem. you’re to blame. you you you. stop commenting. go do something, it’s your fault. you you you …

      May 26, 2009 at 10:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @pz: Smart move Tank is not a bad guy but he think it is his job to punish ANY person of faith for what the worst of our number have done. Ultimately I am responsible for MY actions alone.

      @Bri: I’m going now I can hear all the helicopters over west hollywood filming eerything i will be back after a 7 mile march with updates on what happened :-)

      May 26, 2009 at 10:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @getreal:

      http://www.dayofdecision.com/

      If there were one near me, I’d go even though I’m in the eastern time zone. My town has a large LBGT community, but they appear to be in the closet tonight.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      Tank is extremely intelligent. One of few people on here besides Queerty who makes sense.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      I found a livestream of a rally

      http://cathydebuono.com/channel.html

      I think that’s what it is anyway. Sometimes it looks like a live broadcast and then sometimes it’s…something else.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Freedom09
      Freedom09

      FITC: you never got over Hillary losing?

      May 26, 2009 at 10:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      So you condemn my church, which has both female and gay leadership and clergy?

      I absolutely do. I condemn any church (christian) that is complicit either indirectly or directly in propagating suffering. A moderate christian appeals to the bible in justifying his beliefs just as much as a fundamentalist appeals to the bible in justifying hers, and in both cases, legitimate the text as a source of “authority” for one another. They work with each other. Moderates give the religion that extremists claims just as much as moderates do a friendly, agreeable face, and this gives the extremists a pass. NO moderate can help an extremist understand their position, for according to the extremist, the moderate is just a failed extremist (many catholics are considered failed catholics by their own pope, for example).

      We also have no problems with Darwinian evolution, black people, gray people, Marians, or anyone else.

      Yes, I”m sure you belong to a so-called progressive church. But nonetheless, you do more harm by emboldening and indirectly helping extremists by legitimating their text and their faith, while simultaneously doing NOTHING to promote tolerance and diminish the toxicity of their values and beliefs for they have nothing but contempt and pity for you…as a failed extremist….

      There is a serious disconnect in logic here, between the acts of some believers and the faith itself.

      Is there? I would say that that disconnect is largely on the shoulders of religious moderates who are moderates not for religious reasons, but for secular ones…for first, one doesn’t require any religion to treat people with respect and dignity, invalidating the claim that it is one’s religious beliefs that are responsible for their behaving ethically and with a sense of self in respect to other, and secondly, it is a pick and choose game (or, in some cases, reinterpretation of biblical passages that have throughout history been used to deny women and gay people and black people their personhood…)…it’s funny that the gay positive bible is as new as gay friendly christians and the march of SECULAR enlightenment values…coincidence? I think not. Anything else is a distortion of the progression of enlightenment values in their own understanding of man. In fact, human dignity is basically an enlightenment invention, not a religious one…

      And lastly, before this conversation ends, everyone is in possession of the true faith. Moderate or extremist. You simply have no authority to tell an extremist antigay christian that their reading of the bible, and what their faith tells them is wrong…it’s just you disagreeing with them, not proving anything. They are just as justified using the bible as you are. Wrong reasons merely repeat “I’m right because I said I’m right…and that’s that…and blah blah blah, jesus…” they can refer to jesus to justify their beliefs just as ably as you, too.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @Bri: ok, it is a live broadcast of the rally in west hollywood but the filmer is having technology troubles so other things are being played while she tries to sort things out.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      “I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars.”

      “The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.”

      Charles Darwin

      Since you brought up Darwin (and darwinian evolution is pretty dated now–revision is the mark of science)…and what the hell…I can’t give two darwin quote without another….and the best one of all.

      Probably all organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form, into which life was first breathed. There is grandeur in this view of life that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

      May 26, 2009 at 10:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      @TANK:

      This debate could go forever, and I disagree with nearly every point of your argument, but it’s your joint, so you win.

      I’m going to be starting a site called Christianity Resurrected soon. I’ll invite you over and give you a good philosophical thrashing ; )

      Carry on…

      May 26, 2009 at 10:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Emma
      Emma

      I am not really surprised at all. If the court removed it then it would set the standard of being able to remove any voter added amendment.

      Now that being said, IT SHOULD BE struck down as a violation of civil rights and as blatant, institutionalized discrimination.

      May 26, 2009 at 11:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      by the way. I meant martians, not “Marians.” We do have serious problems with Marians. They are just plain evil.

      May 26, 2009 at 11:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pz
      pz

      Before taking this thread on any more diversions from the point, good night to all and good luck.

      May 26, 2009 at 11:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      Just saw this tweet:

      rikoizm: Now Miss Cali’s taking picture with @PerezHilton on the the Prop 8 Rally? Girl, make up ur mind!!

      Hah. Wonder if that’s true.

      May 26, 2009 at 11:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Attmay
      Attmay

      I don’t see riots, people! Just that hippy-dippy pacifism BS that has gotten us nowhere.

      No more tolerance. No more PC. No more dialogue. The time for militancy is now.

      May 26, 2009 at 11:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Schteve
      Schteve

      @yeson8won: I agree completely which is why I said I don’t want it before the court in its current make up at all. :)

      May 26, 2009 at 11:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @Bri: that plug looks to be an old video of Obots who were laughably shocked at Prop 8’s ruling after Barky spoke to his constituency for 2 years straight telling them he doesn’t support gay marriage. Obots blame everyone but Barky.

      May 27, 2009 at 12:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @Freedom09: Hillary is against gay marriage as well, Obot. Ignoramus parasites are so stooopid, they don’t realize that they own “God is in the mix” …

      May 27, 2009 at 12:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      1892
      “I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.”

      1892 to 1923
      “I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.”

      1923 to 1924
      “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.”

      1924 to 1954
      “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.”

      1954 to Present
      “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

      Prop. 8 supporters and their ilk love to use the expression “You are trying to redefine marriage.” Some even go so far as to say that “Marriage is a 5,000 years old tradition (a lie) to try to prove their point.

      Note that since it’s inception in 1892, the Pledge of Allegiance (Source Wikpedia)has been redefined on four separate occasions.

      It is particularly noteworthy, that the last redefinition of the Pledge of Allegiance was made in 1954, at the insistence of the religious right.

      The point being that it’s perfectly okay for the CCC (Christer, creationist crowd) to redefine a 62 year old National tradition, but it’s not okay for the LGBT community to insist that they be given the same right to liberty and justice that they have always enjoyed and which is supposed to be guaranteed to all American Citizens by the American Constitution and the Bill of rights.

      Aside from it being a fucking outrageous travesty, I’d say that hogging liberty and justice all to themselves is just a mite selfish, wouldn’t you say?

      May 27, 2009 at 12:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      @schlukitz: Your first two are identical.

      May 27, 2009 at 12:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won [Different person #1 using similar name]

      give it to me up my fat ass. i like it hard and fast … then blow your load in my face …

      May 27, 2009 at 12:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fitc
      fitc

      @Freedom09: rally’s are pointless … did you see all of those No on 8 rally’s the first time. That got us real far didn’t it?

      I will never EVER give any money to HRC or No on 8.

      They do as they wish and do NOT speak for the people.

      May 27, 2009 at 12:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won [Different person #1 using similar name]

      My mouth open like a bird … ram that wood down my throat …

      May 27, 2009 at 12:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won [Different person #1 using similar name]

      No grease, please! I love it bareback no grease.

      May 27, 2009 at 12:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @hyhybt:

      Thanks for bringing that to my attention. An apparent omission that occurred as a result of my trying to put the changed wording into italics, which I do not know how to do in the Queerty dialogue box.

      The second paragraph should read:

      “I pledge allegiance to my flag and TO the republic for which it stands:…..”

      May 27, 2009 at 1:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Does anyone know how to do bold italics on this site?

      May 27, 2009 at 1:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      *bold*

      May 27, 2009 at 1:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mb00
      mb00

      @yeson8won: You better start running you fucking CUNT!!! You’re time is up.

      May 27, 2009 at 1:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @schlukitz:

      Yeah

      May 27, 2009 at 1:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @TANK:

      Precisely.

      How did you do that, Tank?

      May 27, 2009 at 2:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      @yeson8won: Another self loathing closet case projecting his self hatred onto a mirror of himself. Go eat another doughnut you ugly, fat piece of shit.

      May 27, 2009 at 3:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      It looks like this in the emailed version, though I won’t know until this post shows up whether typing it that way works[img]http://homepage.mac.com/feudfan/90527.png[/img]

      May 27, 2009 at 3:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      I have an idea. Right now we are all angry, we are all mad. We all want to lash out. We want to punish those who have punished us. But you know what? That is what they want. They want us to do violence, they want us to react that way. These are people who enjoy war, they are haters in their hearts and they feed off of this. They do not want us to go away. Who do you think stirred up this issue in the first place? They did. They need to oppress they need to express their anger and rage that is actually at themselves onto us. So what would really piss them off?

      I think we should do “love ins” Yes, “love ins”. Lets throw a nationwide, hell a world wide party. Lets assemble by the hundreds, the thousands in public parks, public squares, public everywhere, lets not just do it in our own neighborhoods but their neighborhoods. Let us assemble and throw a party, have picnics, play volleyball, lets make them see us in a way they don’t want to see us, happy. Lets show them that they can take whatever they want from the outside but they cannot take anything from our insides. They cannot take away our joy,, our love for each other. Lets be ourselves, lets hold hands, kiss, hug, sing, dance, play music and let them see us doing it. Because the thing that they hate the most is happiness and lets show them they cannot ever legislate that away. I am serious.

      May 27, 2009 at 3:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Freedom09
      Freedom09

      you people have a lot of time on your hands. it’s sad when your life is about commenting for apparently hours upon hours—no once cares, no one is listening..sad, you’re all sad.

      May 27, 2009 at 12:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ProfessorVP
      ProfessorVP

      The shock of the ruling is that there is no shock. Not to anyone who lives in California, as I do. Any Pollyanna who thinks there is a substantial political difference between California and, say, Texas, may have visited here but never lived here. “Oh, but there’s the Castro in San Francisco!” is absurd. Without intolerance and exclusion, the Castro wouldn’t exist. Oddly, Iowa, of all places, got it right.

      May 27, 2009 at 12:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      @ProfessorVP: Why would there be a shock? This has been the obviously-most-likely result since November.

      May 27, 2009 at 12:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Prop 8 is no more about discrimination than saying under-18’s cannot vote and blind people cannot be bus drivers.

      It’s not discrimination, it’s simply defining who QUALIFIES for marriage.

      And We The People have made it clear that they want marriage to remain defined as being for one man one woman. Not just in California but in all 30 states where the people have been able to vote.

      A heterosexual couple is NOT the same as a same sex couple.

      And under the US Constitution rights accrue to individuals, not couples or any other groupings.

      May 27, 2009 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Yeah

      May 27, 2009 at 1:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @hyhybt:

      Thanks for your assistance. It obviously worked when you typed it, but if doesn’t seem to work for me.

      I was puzzled by what appears to be a horizontally stretched or an elongated X in your example. I don’t see anything on my keyboard that remotely resembles it and that may be the reason why I cannot get the bold italics to work.

      Sorry to be such a computer dummy. ;P

      May 27, 2009 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @yeson8won:

      “A heterosexual couple is NOT the same as a same sex couple.”

      The Gospel according to yeson8won.

      These states and countries obviously disagree with you.

      * The Netherlands/Holland, 2001.
      * Belgium, 2003.
      * Massachusetts, USA, 2004.
      * Canada, 2005.
      * Spain, 2005.
      * South Africa, 2006.
      * Connecticut, 2008.
      * Norway, 2009.
      * Iowa, USA, 2009.

      And more are on the way. Change is coming, like it or not. It was people exactly like you who opposed civil-rights for blacks and used exactly the same reasons to justify it. They went down on the wrong side of history.

      Better get out of the way because anti-homosexual, discriminatory, bigoted and hateful people like you are going down on the wrong side of history again.

      Hope you have something handy for removing tire marks off your head. ;)
      * Sweden, 2009.
      * Vermont, 2009.

      May 27, 2009 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      @schlukitz: Either for some reason you’re getting a broken image, or you’re looking at a Greater Than sign > followed by a Less Than sign <.

      @yeson8won: You want it explained as discrimination against individuals? Fine. Ricky can marry Lucy, but Ethyl cannot (assuming Lucy is agreeable either way.) This is plain, ordinary sexual discrimination against Ethyl solely because she is a woman, on the same level as only hiring her for jobs that are “woman’s work” would be.

      May 27, 2009 at 2:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ProfessorVP
      ProfessorVP

      @yeson8won:
      Can you imagine saying, “It’s not discrimination, it just QUALIFIES who rides in the front section of the bus.” It’s all about being, as the only judge who got it right (Judge Moreno) wrote, a disfavored minority. That is all it is. The ick factor and the totem pole factor.

      BTW, Yes, WTF are you doing at Queerty.com?

      May 27, 2009 at 2:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @schlukitz: The fact that those states decided to redefine marriage for homosexuals doesn’t alter the fact that a same sex couple is NOT the same as a heterosexual couple.

      And the comparison with the civil-rights struggle for blacks is both inaccurate and offensive to many African-Americans, who voted YesOn8 by a huge majority.

      Not all change is good. Do you think we should change the age of consent to 8 to appease pedophiles?

      Prop 8 is no more about discrimination than saying under-18’s cannot vote and blind people cannot be bus drivers.

      It’s not discrimination, it’s simply defining who QUALIFIES for marriage.

      And We The People have made it clear that they want marriage to remain defined as being for one man one woman. Not just in California but in all 30 states where the people have been able to vote.

      May 27, 2009 at 2:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      ProfessorVP: “It’s not discrimination, it just QUALIFIES who rides in the front section of the bus.”

      That is a completely inaccurate example.

      Homosexuals have exactly the same right to marriage as normal people.

      You are free to ride in the bus but you cannot change the bus into a lawn mower.

      If your side was truthful and stopped wallowing in self-pity it may garner more support, or at least respect

      May 27, 2009 at 2:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dennis
      Dennis

      @yeson8won:
      “Homosexuals have the same right to marriage as normal people”

      Fuck you 10 times over! By “normal”, of course you mean assholes, right? And you support gay people marrying “normal” people? That sounds like a real recipe for long-term happiness. Talk about “opposite” marriage…

      Enjoy your hollow victory while it lasts pal, because time IS NOT on your side…even your govenator says it’s only a matter of time.

      Get a life, pathetic breeder, and stop trolling gay sights to add some excitement to your stupifyingly boring “normal” life.

      May 27, 2009 at 3:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      @Yeson8won – you are getting real tiresome.

      The reason pedophilia is illegal is because an 8 year old cannot make an informed decision. Same for bestiality. The law takes those things into account.

      A bus and a lawnmower are inanimate objects – no one can tell me who to love. History is replete with examples of all kinds of marriages. There is a lot of evidence that even in the Catholic church there was a sacred same sex ceremony – there are some articles from the time period where people writing said it was a legit marriage. Not to say that all agreed, but there is never a time or place where every agrees.

      May 27, 2009 at 3:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      SSM Catholic – I forgot to put during the early middle ages, in Europe.

      May 27, 2009 at 3:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @yeson8won:

      “The fact that those states decided to redefine marriage for homosexuals doesn’t alter the fact that a same sex couple is NOT the same as a heterosexual couple.”

      This is simply just your opinionated opinion. You are not representative of 100% the of population of California. 48% of the voting public did not agree with you (no landslide victory for No on Prop 8) at the voting booth on Prop 8 and very likely, even less will agree with you when it comes up on the ballot once again. And it will. And those percentages may very well flip-flop this time around. That should really piss the likes of you off regally.

      “And the comparison with the civil-rights struggle for blacks is both inaccurate and offensive to many African-Americans, who voted YesOn8 by a huge majority.”

      I don’t care if many were offended. We are equally offended that they voted Yes on Prop.8. It’s a Mexican standoff, since you have attempted to reduce your argument to a racial issue.

      “Not all change is good. Do you think we should change the age of consent to 8 to appease pedophiles?”

      Straw man argument. Show me where anyone has proposed that? Back up your idotic comments with factual information or, to put it yet another way, put mind in gear, before putting mouth in motion.

      “Prop 8 is no more about discrimination than saying under-18’s cannot vote and blind people cannot be bus drivers.”

      A red herring. Underage drivers and blind people have nothing to do with your dumb-assed support of blatant discrimination. You can disclaim your bigotry and hatred all you want, but you own it…lock, stock and barrel and no amount of denial will rid you of it.

      “It’s not discrimination, it’s simply defining who QUALIFIES for marriage.”

      Stupid attempts to redefine the word discrimination, do not change it’s true meaning. No one needs to “QUALIFY” for marriage (a basic civil-right) any more than than a black person needs to “qualify” them self in order to ride in the front of the bus or vote.

      “And We The People have made it clear that they want marriage to remain defined as being for one man one woman. Not just in California but in all 30 states where the people have been able to vote.”

      52% of the population of the State of California does not speak for all of the people. And “We The People have just clearly demonstrated their ignorance, their fear of LGBT people, their discrimination, their bigotry and their blind hatred of LGBT people…but worst of all, it has clearly demonstrated the tyranny of the masses that penners of our Constitution so feared from the RR.

      “ProfessorVP: “It’s not discrimination, it just QUALIFIES who rides in the front section of the bus.”

      Spoken like a true racist. And with that statement, you obviously believe and support the notion of the superiority of certain majorities. If I were a black man, I would be even more infuriated by that remark than I am as a gay, white male.

      “Homosexuals have exactly the same right to marriage as normal people.”

      Only if lie to our true selves and go into denial like Rev. Haggard, ex-NJ Governor McGreevey or Senator Craig and marry a person of the opposite sex. That’s not a marriage. That’s just a sad sham that brings grief to both partners, as well as the children born of such lies and deceit.

      “You are free to ride in the bus but you cannot change the bus into a lawn mower.”

      Oh, thank you, massah. That be real big ‘o you to let us ride in de back ‘o de bus. You have demonstrated, yet once again, that you are a disgusting racist.

      “If your side was truthful and stopped wallowing in self-pity it may garner more support, or at least respect”

      Charity begins at home and from what I saw of the shameful ads against Yes on Prop 8 in California, I would have to say that people like you have a death grip on lies and deceit.

      Do I want your concept of support and respect, on your terms and within the outlines of your narrow spectrum of existence where the LGBT community should remember it’s place?

      Absolutely NOT!

      Not in a million years, would we be ever be successful in winning the hearts and minds of people like you. It would be a total waste of time. Why should be even try?

      Personally, I never liked the taste of cruddy shoe leather…or an unwashed, smelly ass.

      May 27, 2009 at 3:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Correction on the last paragraph:

      “…or an unwiped, unwashed, smelly ass.”

      May 27, 2009 at 3:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • stupid
      stupid

      you’re all blithering idots

      May 27, 2009 at 3:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hyhybt
      hyhybt

      Nothing worse than a sore winner…

      By the way, yesterday I saw a vehicle on the road that might have been a bus turned into a lawn mower. The front half was definitely still a school bus, mid-80’s Ford, but I couldn’t quite tell what the back half had become. Not exactly a lawn mower, but it looked like it had been made for hauling them.

      May 27, 2009 at 3:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Dennis: Fuck you 10 times over! Get a life, pathetic breeder,

      Yet another hateful, intolerant homosexual bigot!

      BTW do you refer to your parents as “pathetic breeders”?

      May 27, 2009 at 5:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @schlukitz: Nope it isn’t just my opinion.

      A same sex couple is two people of the same sex. A heterosexual couple is one of each sex. That is undeniable.

      If you are going to posit that any combination of two adults should be considered equal under the law then what about two adult siblings? A parent/child?

      And why only couples, what about triads etc?

      May 27, 2009 at 5:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      SCHLUKITZ: 52% of the population of the State of California does not speak for all of the people.

      Nor does 48% of the people. But Prop 8 won by about the same margin as Obama, and that’s that.

      May 27, 2009 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      SCHLUKITZ: No one needs to “QUALIFY” for marriage (a basic civil-right) any more than than a black person needs to “qualify” them self in order to ride in the front of the bus or vote.

      I already explained, homosexuals already qualify for marriage.

      But same sex couples do not. At least not in California.

      Nor do sibling couples, parent/child couples or any other permutations of men and women.

      Just like a blind man does NOT qualify to drive a car, or do you consider that “discrimination” too?

      May 27, 2009 at 5:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ProfessorVP
      ProfessorVP

      @yeson8won:
      You still didn’t answer my question. WTF are you doing here at Queerty?

      May 27, 2009 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @ProfessorVP: Why shouldn’t I be here?

      Are you trying to discriminate against normal people?

      Why are you ardent homosexuals so intolerant and hateful??

      May 27, 2009 at 6:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ProfessorVP
      ProfessorVP

      @yeson8won:

      Here’s my take on why you’re here- a) You are being facetious, portraying an intolerant hillbilly for comic effect, or
      b) You are at Queerty because you’re queer, but you have a major problem with yourself. Which is it?

      May 27, 2009 at 7:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @yeson8won:

      “Are you trying to discriminate against normal people?”

      Ah, but there’s the rub.

      What makes you think that you are normal, whatever that means?

      And the reason why you shouldn’t be here is not because we “ardent homosexuals are so intolerant and hateful”, but because you have not demonstrated, not even in the least, that you yourself are not intolerant and hateful and that you have any interest in being understanding and supportive of our struggle for civil-rights.

      You Sir, are nothing more than an agent provocateur. Wikipedia describes people or organizations like you in the following manner.

      “An agent provocateur may be a police officer or a secret agent of police who encourages suspects to carry out a crime under conditions where evidence can be obtained; or who suggests the commission of a crime to another, in hopes they will go along with the suggestion and be convicted of the crime.”

      Further….

      “A political organization or government may use agents provocateurs against political opponents. The provocateurs try to incite the opponent to counter-productive or ineffective acts to foster public disdain—or provide a pretext for aggression against the opponent (see Red-baiting).”

      The foregoing would pretty well describe your presence here.

      Either that, or you like to jac-off at the pics of the young guys Queery posts on this site.

      That doesn’t make you a bad person.

      It just makes you a closet queer! ;P

      May 27, 2009 at 7:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @ProfessorVP: Neither.

      How the hell did you become a Professor?

      May 27, 2009 at 7:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @schlukitz:
      Wrong again schlukitz.

      I’m just demonstrating that you homosexual activists are guilty of the very sins for which you condemn others.

      You demand tolerance from others for your sexual dysfunction. Yet you show no tolerance towards people who think differently to you.

      Just look back at the hate-filled slurs that have been hurled at me by your comrades on this forum.

      It’s clear homosexuals can be just as bigoted as normal people.

      bigot = a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others.

      May 27, 2009 at 7:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @yeson8won:

      “bigot = a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others.”

      And you, of course, are not in the least bit guilty of that. Hah!
      So typical self righteous ignoramuses like you.

      Why don’t you just go back to doing what you were doing before you came onto this site?

      Scratching your smelly ass, picking your nose and eating your buggers like the snot-nosed kid you are.

      Btw…are you even old enough to be in an adult site like this?

      May 27, 2009 at 7:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @schlukitz: Scratching your smelly ass, picking your nose and eating your buggers like the snot-nosed kid you are.

      Are you sure you are an adult?

      Anyway thanks for proving my point about homosexuals being bigoted and intolerant.

      May 27, 2009 at 7:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @yeson8won: Seriously, fuck you. You have no right whatsoever to talk about us being prejudiced and intolerant. You came on here with an attitude right off the bat, belittling people, making outrageous and unfounded statements, and generally being a piece of shit. You have done nothing, said nothing, written nothing to warrant even the slightest modicum of respect from us. We’ve had numerous bigots stop by here and find themselves treated respectfully (at least by some of us) because they had enough class about themselves to engage us civilly.

      You don’t want us to be nice to you. You came here looking for a fight because that’s how subhumans like you get your rocks off. You saw that we were having an unpleasant day, and you came here to gloat. That’s it. You’re a festering sore on the asshole of humanity, and it’s high time you were removed.

      And yeah, you are definitely a closeted, self-loathing homo, taking out your fears and frustrations on the rest of us because you cannot bear the possibility that we can be truly happy with ourselves. You are pure evil, and I hope beyond hope, for the good of the planet and the human race, that you never procreate. You should have been aborted yourself, you’re such a huge mistake. If I had a time machine, I’d travel back and piss on the dismembered fetus. And laugh.

      Bigotry is not bigotry when it entails anger and hatred for those who oppress you. Were the slaves bigoted against their slave-masters? Were the suffragettes bigoted against men? You’re a fool. Please die now.

      May 27, 2009 at 8:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @vernonvanderbilt: I always look forward to your posts. Thumbs up.

      May 27, 2009 at 8:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Bri:

      I’m a copy on that thought as well, but Vernon already knows that. ;P

      May 27, 2009 at 8:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ProfessorVP
      ProfessorVP

      @yeson8won:
      I still say you’re being a facetious/sarcastic goofball, pretending to be an idiot, sort of in a Steve Martin mode,
      but nobody is appreciating it, or you’re here because you’re gay and not a happy camper about it. Of course, the nekkid boy pix are a side benefit. There can be no other possible reason you camp out here. And I do mean camp!

      May 27, 2009 at 8:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      So what exactly happened in california last night? Did any riots break out? Any vandalism or violence? Significant news coverage?

      May 27, 2009 at 8:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @vernonvanderbilt:

      You wrote: “You came on here with an attitude right off the bat, belittling people, making outrageous and unfounded statements, and generally being a piece of shit.”

      That he did, Vernon. And here is the proof of it…his very first post on this thread:

      No. 226 · yeson8won

      Finally justice has been served. We The People have taken back their rights from the judiciary, Homosexual marriage in California has been defeated.

      Those 18,000 homosexual ‘marriages’ will remain as an embarrassing wart on the face of the CA Supreme Court, who should have stayed their June 2008 ruling until the people had held a ballot.

      As a concession to the homosexuals I support changing the CA Constitution so any future amendments require a 2/3rds majority.

      End of yeson8won’s post. It was all downhill from there.

      And he has the chutzpah to come on this thread and accuse and lecture us about being bigoted, prejudiced in our views and intolerant of the opinions of others?

      How does he manage to stuff those over-sized cojones in his drawers, I wonder?

      May 27, 2009 at 10:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @hyhybt:

      It works!

      Thanks to you kind sir. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

      May 27, 2009 at 10:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @Bri: @schlukitz: Oooh! I have fans! See my head swelling? :P

      @schlukitz: “How does he manage to stuff those over-sized cojones in his drawers, I wonder?”

      Easy. He was born without a cock, so that frees up lots of space in those decidedly unfashionable trousers.

      Can you imagine that? Giant balls and no sausage? It’s a rather comical mental image, I’d say. Sort of like little crotch-boobies.

      May 27, 2009 at 11:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Schteve
      Schteve

      @yeson8won: The state has a legitimate interest in restricting the voting age and who can operate a bus. Just as the state has a legitimate interest in restricting certain types of unions (not allowing them between siblings, as you suggest). Every court to declare same-sex marriage bans illegal argued how the state does not have an interest in restricting marriage to opposite-sex couples. Therein lies the difference.

      @hyhybt: Unfortunately, you won’t find any judge agreeing with your sex discrimination argument here (as otherwise this whole thing would be a lot more cut and dry). Of all the courts to decide on the matter, I believe only one justice has used this line of reasoning (in the concurring opinion of the Massachusetts court ruling). All the rest have specifically said that it is not discrimination on sex since neither sex is favored over the other by the law. Yes, both sexes are treated disparagingly, but they are treated disparagingly in the same and equal manner.

      May 28, 2009 at 2:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @schlukitz: You write like a spoiled little girl.

      I have every right to describe you and your ilk as prejudiced, bigoted and intolerant because that’s EXACTLY what you are.

      Spare us your drama-queen nonsense about being ‘oppressed’.

      Homosexuals have never been enslaved, segregated nor denied the vote.

      No wonder African Americans are sickened by your disingenuous attempts to compare your whining to their struggle, your sexual depravity to their race.

      Thank God I can help you face reality and disrupt your pathetic little cocoon of delusion.

      May 28, 2009 at 4:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won: Ahahaha that’s funny you think you’re disrupting something. Excuse me while I go about my day without thinking about you once.

      May 28, 2009 at 6:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won:

      No wonder African Americans are sickened by your disingenuous attempts to compare your whining to their struggle, your sexual depravity to their race

      Also, and I know this is going to shake your very core, but believe it or not there are GAY AFRICAN-AMERICANS and straight african-americans who are not “sickened” by comparisons to the civil rights movement.

      He is no longer alive but let’s take a look at the man behind MLK.

      “Twenty-five, thirty years ago, the barometer of human rights in the United States were black people. That is no longer true. The barometer for judging the character of people in regard to human rights is now those who consider themselves gay, homosexual, lesbian.” – Bayard Rustin

      May 28, 2009 at 10:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      “African-Americans are overwhelmingly Christians, and many of us believe that the Bible condemns homosexuality. Beyond that, even suggesting that the struggle of gays and lesbians for the right to marry is similar to our own civil rights struggle is often perceived as an insult.

      I’ve heard the most racially militant blacks argue that the gay struggle is different from our own because we have no choice about being black while gays can choose whom they want to sleep with. This reasoning persists despite growing scientific evidence that people’s sexual orientation is innate and that they don’t choose it any more than they choose their sex or race.

      Some African-Americans also argue that gays and lesbians were never slaves or victims of a system designed to keep them in their place, and that while homosexuals have the option of keeping their sex lives private, few blacks can hide their race.

      Even some civil rights leaders, such as Jesse Jackson, have tried to put distance between the black and gay struggles. And black ministers, among them the Rev. Bernice King, Martin Luther King Jr.’s daughter, have led protests to fight efforts to legalize same-sex marriage. ”

      http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2006-08-21-forum-blacks-gay_x.htm

      May 28, 2009 at 5:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @Bri: Excuse me while I go about my day without thinking about you once.

      Hey Bri, two hours later you made another post about me – did you forget??

      May 28, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won:

      Two hours huh? Time to go back to kindergarten to learn how to count.

      Your article mentions Martin Luther King’s daughter being against same-sex marriage. You know who was for same-sex marriage? Martin Luther King’s wife.

      From your same source, USA today:

      The widow of Martin Luther King Jr. called gay marriage a civil rights issue, denouncing a proposed constitutional amendment that would ban it.

      Constitutional amendments should be used to expand freedom, not restrict it, Coretta Scott King said Tuesday.

      “Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union,” she said. “A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages.”

      http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-24-king-marriage_x.htm

      So you know the NAACP right? The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People? Yeah, well they came out against your beloved Prop 8. Have a looksie:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoIlHTIq8BQ

      Since I know you are not going to watch the video, he says: “It seems to me that the right to be married is a civil right, and I believe civil rights ought to be extended to everybody.”

      However, we ought to be flattered that our movement has provided so much inspiration for others, that it has been so widely imitated, and that our tactics, methods, heroines and heroes, even our songs, have been appropriated by or served as models for others.

      Some who object to gay rights see homosexuality as a choice, but science has demonstrated conclusively that sexual disposition is inherent in some, not an option or alternative they’ve selected. In that regard, it exactly parallels race–I was born Black and had no choice. I couldn’t and wouldn’t change it. Like race, our sexuality isn’t a preference–it is immutable, unchangeable, and the Constitution protects us all against prejudices and discrimination based on immutable differences. – Julian Bond, chairman of the NAACP

      http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_9_59/ai_n6100475/

      This isn’t new either. The NAACP in California supported the bill in 2005 to make SSM legal.

      California NAACP endorses same-sex marriage bill

      http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20050405-1448-ca-gaymarriage.html

      May 28, 2009 at 6:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won: I’m also not sure you even read the article you linked to.

      From your source:


      I asked the Rev. James Forbes, pastor of The Riverside Church in New York. Forbes is black, and his diverse congregation has gone on record as supporting same-sex marriages — and all other families that are based on the principles of love and justice. Forbes says acceptance might increase as African-Americans become more aware of scientific evidence that suggests sexual orientation is innate — and not a choice.

      As for the Bible’s apparent disapproval of homosexual behavior, Forbes says it’s a matter of how one reads the Bible.

      “What is clear,” he says, “is that the Bible says the highest principle is love. Once it becomes clear that our sexual orientation is more or less a given, I think black people will begin to recognize that including all in the family of God is a more righteous principle than the abhorrence of gay love.”

      I see marriage as a civil right, and no group’s religious beliefs should be allowed to deny the rights of others. And because blacks have suffered from bigotry and injustice that were cloaked by religion and morality, we should avoid doing the same thing to others.

      May 28, 2009 at 6:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Good responses lads and I’m glad you read the article.

      It just goes to show that the similarity between the noble struggle of African Americans and the whiny demands of homosexuals are highly controversial at best and dubious at worst.

      There you would be well advised not to play that card for fear of further alienating the American public.

      May 28, 2009 at 7:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @yeson8won:

      I am calling you on your bullshit, asshole.

      Once again, you have proven yourself to be a disingenuous liar who cheats, manipulates and twists facts to prove your ignorance and lack of integrity by “lifting” copy from an news article that reflect and support your sick, virulent and unfounded views concerning homosexuality.

      Had you bothered to read a little further, you would have realized that the lady who wrote this article is, herself, a black woman by the name of Sheryl McCarthy who has been a reporter and education editor of The New York Daily News, a correspondent for ABC News, and a special writer and columnist for Newsday and New York Newsday.

      This is what she went on to say after you deliberately cut it short to make yourself look right.

      A comparable struggle

      The fight for gay rights is like our civil rights struggle, however, and it’s hypocritical for groups that have had to fight long and hard to win their own constitutional rights to turn around and try to deny them to the next group. We’re seeing this in the descendants of immigrant groups that were despised and vilified during their early days in this country, and that now want to deny recent immigrants the means to become lawful citizens.

      This hypocrisy was apparent to me as I was growing up in a black Baptist church. I routinely heard ministers condemn gays from the pulpit, even though half the male choir members, the choir director, the flower arranger and plenty of other male church members were obviously gay. The church would have had difficulty functioning without them.

      Because it’s difficult enough to be black in this country, I know that black communities would prefer not to have to deal with the added stigma society attaches to homosexuals, and the obvious link to HIV and AIDS. And with stable heterosexual marriages rare enough in black communities, some African-Americans think that encouraging same-sex marriage would only complicate the situation.

      Nonetheless, the main argument used against same-sex marriage is that the Bible says it’s wrong. We point to the Scriptures, to the story of Adam and Eve (and the absence of Adam and Steve), to the retribution inflicted on the sinners of Sodom and Gomorrah, and to depictions of male-on-male sex in Leviticus and Romans as being so perverse that it warranted death.

      I won’t attempt to argue with the Scriptures, other than to say they reflect the mores and biases of the times they were written. And just as there are Scriptures ordering slaves to obey their masters, cautioning women to be silent in church and submissive at home, and applauding the persecution of the Jews because they killed Jesus, none of these positions is argued by enlightened people today.

      I won’t dismiss the beliefs of blacks who believe that homosexuality is immoral, but I’d caution them that morality has often been used as a cloak for old-fashioned bigotry, fear and discomfort with people and behaviors that are different.

      But what about religion?

      How can African-Americans reconcile religious beliefs with acceptance of same-sex marriage?

      I asked the Rev. James Forbes, pastor of The Riverside Church in New York. Forbes is black, and his diverse congregation has gone on record as supporting same-sex marriages — and all other families that are based on the principles of love and justice. Forbes says acceptance might increase as African-Americans become more aware of scientific evidence that suggests sexual orientation is innate — and not a choice.

      As for the Bible’s apparent disapproval of homosexual behavior, Forbes says it’s a matter of how one reads the Bible.

      “What is clear,” he says, “is that the Bible says the highest principle is love. Once it becomes clear that our sexual orientation is more or less a given, I think black people will begin to recognize that including all in the family of God is a more righteous principle than the abhorrence of gay love.”

      I see marriage as a civil right, and no group’s religious beliefs should be allowed to deny the rights of others. And because blacks have suffered from bigotry and injustice that were cloaked by religion and morality, we should avoid doing the same thing to others.

      May 28, 2009 at 7:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won: Actually, I think my post showed that several prominent African-American civil rights leaders and religious figures – Bayard Rustin, Julian Bond, Coretta Scott King, and Rev. James Forbes to name a few – disagree with you.

      “Good responses lads…”

      I’m one person and I’m female, you know.

      May 28, 2009 at 7:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @schlukitz: YesOn8Won is illiterate. I pointed out just as you did that the article and journalist is in fact supportive of our battle for equal rights but I am not sure that they are able to comprehend that.

      May 28, 2009 at 7:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Bri:

      Hi Bri. I definitely respect your opinion, but I think you are giving him far more of a free pass than that little, snot-nosed, shit-assed fuck-face deserves.

      He’s not illiterate. He’s simply disingenuous. He knew how to pick the good stuff to “prove” his bigoted and hateful position that he is promoting on this site.

      And if he as able to read the first half of Sheryl McCarthy’s very gay-supportive editorial and make it look like it was agreeing with his virulently anti-gay rhetoric, then he was certainly able to read the second half of that article and understand that it did NOT agree with his stance, which he deliberately chose to omit it.

      It’s so easy for worthless pieces of shit like him to hide behind the anononimity of a computer screen and a screen name and spout his venon at people who have never lifted a finger to hurt him or say a bad word about him.

      But, would he have the courage to post his email address along with his abusive, defaming comments, or better yet, say it directly to any or our faces?

      Somehow, me thinks not because cowards like him would much prefer to sneak up behind someone and give them a rabbit punch or a knife in back and then run back to hide the slime pit they crawled our of.

      May 28, 2009 at 8:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Typo. “our”, in the last paragraph, should be “out”.

      May 28, 2009 at 8:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @schlukitz: Okay, I don’t actually think he is illiterate. He is obviously a piece of shit but telling him he is a piece of shit isn’t going to make him see the light any more than showing him evidence that he is wrong is going to.

      May 28, 2009 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Bri:

      How about we bop him over the head with a thick club?

      That should make him see a lot lights! ;P

      May 28, 2009 at 8:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @schlukitz: Sounds like a plan. :P

      May 28, 2009 at 8:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • bobspice
      bobspice

      @yeson8won:
      You have been exposed as someone whose only motivation is bigotry.
      Your argument – using your own sources – has been roundly debunked.
      Your spite has failed to dent the conviction that our fight for civil rights is just.
      Your poisonous rants have given us further incentive to fight – as many of my African American brothers have done – for full equality.
      Your thoughtless and hateful interventions have been a mere distraction.
      Now go away.

      May 28, 2009 at 9:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Hey lads and lassies, thanks for all your hateful bigoted responses, proving yet again that homosexuals demand tolerance whilst being utterly intolerant themselves.

      Back to your disingenuous tactic of trying to compare the noble struggle for equality of African Americans with the whiny demands of sexual deviants.

      As I explained, and substantiated with evidence, famous leaders in the African American community are offended and completely oppose your desire to redefine marriage to accommodate homosexuals.

      Examples include Jesse Jackson and Bernice King, MLK’s daughter.

      Homosexuals have never been forced into slavery, never been denied the vote, never suffered legalised apartheid nor segregation.

      Homosexuals have all the same rights as normal people. In fact they enjoy special protections in many areas of law, including employment and property law, and the unConstitutional hate crime legislation.

      Who decided homosexual marriage was a “civil right”? Apart from a handful of activist GBLT groups.

      The sooner you realise how normal people think about your efforts the better you can plan your future campaigns.

      May 28, 2009 at 9:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Your turn at bat, Bri ;P

      May 28, 2009 at 9:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay

      A University of Colorado study found 98% of male molesters were HETEROSEXUAL and 99.05% of female molesters were HETEROSEXUAL. The study also found that HETEROSEXUAL male molesters almost always used violence on the victims while the gay ones did not.

      Back to the subject. Gay couples have a right to legally marry. Heterosexual-only marriage advocates believe because they are heterosexual they are better than anyone else and therefore deserve more rights, heterosexuality is the only way to live, and they want to control people’s lives.

      May 28, 2009 at 10:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won: @yeson8won:
      thanks for all your hateful bigoted responses,

      Hateful and bigoted has been your mantra since you started posting here. Get a new one. @It’s old.

      As I explained, and substantiated with evidence, famous leaders in the African American community are offended and completely oppose your desire to redefine marriage to accommodate homosexuals.

      We went over this too. ONE OF THE OLDEST AND MOST INFLUENTIAL CIVIL RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS – THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED PEOPLE – @IS FOR GAY RIGHTS I also provided numerous other names. More than you have. In fact, Jesse Jackson – one of those names that you brought up – has come out in the past to say that he opposes a gay marriage ban. And your “evidence” as was pointed out is written by a black woman who supports same sex marriage. Isn’t that funny? And yet here you are trying to paint the entire African-American population – some of which IS GAY – as being against gay rights and the comparison to the civil rights movement. I have given you links to video and articles as proof and names of people who are on my side but you of course you dismiss logic.

      Homosexuals have never been forced into slavery, never been denied the vote, never suffered legalised apartheid nor segregation.

      Gays historically in this country have been thrown into mental institutions, been subjected to harmful “reparative” therapy including electroshock therapy, been thrown into jail, been the subject of police brutality, been forced to lie about themselves, been kicked out of their house, been disowned by their family, been fired from their job, been bullied, beaten, tortured, raped and murdered because they are gay.

      We do not have our relationships recognized. We can not receive the 1000+ federal benefits of marriage. We could be 90 years old dying in a hospital surrounded by strangers because our partner of 60 years is not allowed in since we’re not married in the eyes of the government.

      We can not serve openly in the military. In most cases if our superiors so much as suspect we are gay we are dishonorably discharged. Entire career…ruined. Over 100,000 careers since the 40’s…ruined.

      In 37 states it is legal to discriminate against us via housing, employment and public access. It is also legal to discriminate against straights in this way – but straight people never have to worry about such things.

      Who decided homosexual marriage was a “civil right”? Apart from a handful of activist GBLT groups.

      Just a handful of GBLT groups? Again, refer to the NAACP.

      May 28, 2009 at 10:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • bobspice
      bobspice

      YESON8WIN

      Your points are easily deconstructed.

      I will always be ‘intolerant’ of someone who calls me a ‘deviant’.

      Free speech is your right – but it has concequences. People who disagree with your insults (calling somwone a ‘deviant’ is an insult) then have the right to react. Forcefully.

      Marriage is a civil institution which has been appropriated by religion.

      Equality under the law is the right of every American.

      Homosexuals may not have been enslaved or segregated but:
      * were murdered in their thousands by Hitler.
      * are still executed and imprisoned, by government sanction, in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Nigeria, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia to name but six.
      * face murder and assault in Jamaica, Russia and – believe it or not – the United States: last year 20% of all hate crimes in the US were committed on the basis of sexual orientation.

      TWENTY PERCENT.

      Don’t you dare say gays’ struggle to seek protection and equal rights under the law is not a civil rights struggle.

      I say that as a proud black man, ‘laddie’.

      Finally: what is ‘normal’ anyway? Are you saying as a straight man have you never fantasised about girl-on-girl?

      If you haven’t, chances are you’re gay.

      May 28, 2009 at 11:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @yeson8won:

      Hey, yeson8won, I couldn’t help but notice that your comebacks are becoming a little lame (naw…a lot) as of late and that you are beginning to repeat yourself quite a bit (again, a lot). ;P

      Now, the problem as I see it, is that the gays on this site have you far outnumbered and from what I have seen of your posts thus far, there is no doubt in my mind that your single digit IQ is no match for any of us.

      I also note that the only way you seem to deal with it, is to simply side-step or ignore any intelligent answers or arguments put to you. Not one to to want to watch you make yourself redundant while you make a total ass out of of yourself, I just came up with a response you can give to all those who have been trying so valiantly, but unsuccessfully to get a light bulb to glow in your cranium.

      You can simply do a copy and paste so that you won’t have to trouble yourself with memorizing the words. Here ’tis.

      “Please don’t confuse me with the facts. I’ve already made up my mind.”

      It will blow us out of the water and is guaranteed to stop us dead in our tracks! :)

      May 28, 2009 at 11:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @bobspice:

      Finally: what is ‘normal’ anyway? Are you saying as a straight man have you never fantasised about girl-on-girl?

      Ew. As a lesbian…just don’t want to think about that. Ever.

      May 28, 2009 at 11:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @yeson8won:

      Homosexuals have never been forced into slavery, never been denied the vote, never suffered legalised apartheid nor segregation.

      It’s your lucky day. I’m going to respond to this once more with a long quote from a book I’m reading, The Mayor of Castro Street: The Life and Times of Harvey Milk. I’m typing it up just for you.

      Gays seemed on the defensive around the country. The Oklahoma legislature enacted their own version of Briggs’s proposal to ban gays from teaching in public schools. From Oklahoma City soon afterward came the news that one hundred teenage boys had formed their own Ku Klux Klan chapter and had picked gay bars as their primary targets, slashing tires and beating patrons with baseball bats. In nearby Arkansas, the legislature took up a bill that not only banned gays from teaching, but denied credentials to gays in the fields of pediatrics, psychiatry, child psychology and youth counseling. Moreover, the bill empowered the state to strip existing licenses from anybody discovered to be gay and penalized gays caught lying about their sexuality by five years in prison. Adolf Hitler had started his final solution for Jews by just such methodical, restrictive legislating, and the analogy was not lost on the startled gays of San Francisco. The pink triangle, which Hitler forced gays to wear in his death camps, soon became the most prominent symbol of the San Francisco gay rights movement.

      Seem peachy to you?

      May 29, 2009 at 12:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @schlukitz: “Please don’t confuse me with the facts. I’ve already made up my mind.”

      That could be the slogan of every GBLT organization in America!

      May 29, 2009 at 1:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @bobspice: Giving examples of human rights atrocities in other countries is irrelevant to the point I made about the odious attempt to compare the struggle of black Americans with the whiny demands of homosexuals IN THE USA.

      And thanks for mentioning Hate Crime legislation – just another example of how homosexuals can receive preferential treatment under the law.

      May 29, 2009 at 1:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @Bri: We can not serve openly in the military. In most cases if our superiors so much as suspect we are gay we are dishonorably discharged. Entire career…ruined. Over 100,000 careers since the 40’s…ruined.

      yeson8won: Millions of other Americans cannot serve in the military because they are the wrong height, weight, physical fitness level, sight/hearing ability, etc.

      The decision about allowing homosexuals to serve in the military should be made by members of the military who are then forced to serve with them.

      Most normal people find it objectionable to share accommodation, showers, close quarters etc with a person who finds them sexually attractive in an abnormal, unwelcome way.

      If we allow homosexuals to serve openly then why not allow straight men and women to share billets?

      May 29, 2009 at 1:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Why hasn’t anyone flagged this annoying fruit-fly yet?

      If we’re as intolerant as he makes us out to be, then why are we tolerating the likes of him?

      May 29, 2009 at 2:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @schlukitz: Flagged.

      May 29, 2009 at 11:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @Bri: I flagged you too so there.

      May 29, 2009 at 3:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @schlukitz: Instead of behaving like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum why don’t you address the points that I made?

      It’s good that you get to hear what normal people think about homosexuals instead of agreeing with each other in a closed group.

      This might help break your circle of delusion.

      May 29, 2009 at 3:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      Only three days since Prop 8 was upheld and what’s happened to all those angry homosexual marchers?

      Hopefully they have decided to tolerate the wishes of We The People.

      May 29, 2009 at 3:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alec
      Alec

      @yeson8won: 52% of you. The failure of parental consent by that margin hasn’t stopped it from being on the ballot nearly every year. You’ll lose in the long run.

      I wonder what will happen when you finally lose at the ballot box. The margin of victory is reduced with every election. When the popular repeal begins, will you accept the results, or demand a supermajority for “legitimate” change in the law, as we have?

      May 29, 2009 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • yeson8won
      yeson8won

      @Alec: Well you homosexuals wanted to change the rules so a Constitutional Amendment requires 67%.

      I think now is the time for us to implement your suggestion, just to show our tolerance of your condition and your wishes.

      May 29, 2009 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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