Reasonable thinking people would look at New York City’s requirement that trans residents have genital surgery in order to change their official sex and think it’s ridiculous, because hello, that type of surgery is ridiculously expensive and, uh, turning your penis into a vagina, or vice versa, should not be what determines your government-approved gender identity. But current NYC health code requires “convertive surgery” to change the sex on a birth certificate, and the quickest way to strike it down it appears to be a lawsuit. So that’s what Sam Berkley and Joann Marie Prinzivalli are doing, filing a case against the city and its bogus requirement that, in addition to being costly (and not covered by many insurance plans) may be medically unwise for some trans men and women because of the health risks. A letter from a doctor, the suit argues, is all that should be required. And I’m sort of like: if even that.
PerplexedStudent
Except that the birth certificate doesn’t say “gender identity.” It says *sex*, which, is determined at birth. And no, I’m not talking about the rare cases of ambiguous sex/intersex children.
All it lists is whether or not the baby is male or female. And guess what? That male child–even if it grows up to identify as female–was most likely given a male name by his parents, based on the physiological gender they saw in the sonogram.
How politically correct do you expect people to be? Do you want parents to “hold off” on naming or their children, or give all children unisex names until they SELF gender-identify?
This article sucks ass.
Nico
The thing is, genitals and sex have very little to do with each other. You can’t tell what sex your child will based on their genitals. My parents certainly had no idea. And my gender identity (for which there has never been a category on a birth certificate) has nothing to do with my sex.
One major problem with not letting trans people amend their birth certificates is that, in many places, laws state that birth certificates *must* be amended in order to change sex markers on things like driver’s licenses and health care cards. Besides, being outed as trans leads to all sort of wonderful consequences, from harrassment to accusations of fraud to murder. Is that really worth supporting the false impressions of the person’s parents and those of the medical professionals present during delivery?
missanthrope
@PerplexedStudent:
Perplexed student, so you want trans people running around with documents that basically outs them whenever they apply for a job, drivers license and a thousand other things, you’re basically advocating that trans people be vulnerable to discrimination because you find it inconvenient to do otherwise.
And quite frankly, there is no real logical reason for a BC to list sex, all needs to say is that “this person was born at x time and y place to z parents”, nothing else. BC’s are amended all of the time for adoption purposes yet there is no complaints over that being “pc”, it’s merely reflecting a fact that a person identifies a certain way (with adopted parents, not birth parents).
“? Do you want parents to “hold off” on naming or their children, or give all children unisex names until they SELF gender-identify?”
haha, as a student, you should know a slippery-slope argument when you see one, not engage in one.
Birth certificates aren’t plated in gold, they merely reflect that a doctor took a look at a baby and said “this baby is x” gender. Surely a person should be able to determine that themselves, a random doctor shouldn’t have that power, 20,40 or 60 years after the fact, that’s a silly proposition.
Tori
@PerplexedStudent: The easiest way to tell an asshole is someone who complains about being PC.
Qjersey
NYC already permits trans folks to get an new ID without having surgery, but this is about changing your birth certificate.
Sabat
@missanthrope: Outs them?
Most aren’t very convincing as their chosen gender. They out themselves.
Jeffree
@Missanthrope: Wow, you’re good! And fast. I was wondering why the BC even lists gender, other than tradition, and there you raised /answered the same question. Gracias.
On another blog, our mutual besty who I will dub “(sweet)braindeadgrrl” is ranting about how, basically she’s the only person in the world who should be allowed to have her BC changed. Let’s not act 2 shocked when she shows up here.
[rolls eyes]
Since I wasn’t born in a hospital, & was abandoned shortly after birth, fostered and then adopted, I don’t know my true birthdate, so my BC is some legal proxy issued later when I was placed in state/county custody. But as a cis-gender guy my problems pale compared with what I read Trans folks have to do *just* to get BCs, passports & DLs, etc., amended. I’m hopeful that the NY suit works out and things get less difficult in terms of documents. May the tides turn!
merkin
OK it seems we need to have a little lesson here. Gender is variable, sex is not. A birth certificiate lists the SEX of the baby, which is an immutable factor. Even if you have sexual-reassignment surgery and take hormones, genetic tests and pelvic exams would show your sex is male. Your GENDER is how you express yourself to the world. A person is free to change their gender if they want, and should be able to amend their license and any other paperwork with a minimum of fuss.
That said, Im not in favor of changing birth certificates because they are used for a variety of purposes. It would be a lie to say a trans woman was born a woman. (and sometimes birth certificates are used to help identify bodies after a fire or in other criminal matters, in which case it’d be important to keep the original sex on file). There should be a way to change your ID, etc but leave the birth certificate as is.
Like it or not, making changes to your basic info—your name, for example—is serious business in this era of ID theft, etc. And it should be a somewhat complicated process, to protect you and society from fraud. You shouldnt be able to just walk into the DMV and say “I want to change the gender on my license.” (If i just want to change my address on my license I have to show all kinds of paperwork!) At the same time you shouldnt have to have surgery. I guess a doctor’s note is a fair compromise (though maybe something else would make more sense). I fully support a trans person’s right to present themselves as the gender they feel, but the rules apply to all of us.
niles
I believe these people should have to go through the surgery. It shows that they are serious and will not be changing back and forth willy nilly and wasting everyone’s time.
Brutus
That’s a fantastic picture of Noah and the plaintiffs.
Brennan
@niles: You are SO right. Clearly, as a trans* person myself, I only believe it should be easier to change my BC because I want to fuck around with the system and switch back and forth every few weeks. Really? That’s complete bullshit. Who are you to judge the “seriousness” of my transition and decisions, or ANY trans* person’s, for that matter? Being trans* isn’t about being all nilly willy and messing around with legal documents for fun. Every trans* person’s decisions and choices are their own. Not every trans* person wants surgery. Does it make them any less of a man/woman/etc. if they don’t want surgery? No, of course not. There’s a difference between sex and gender. Just because my gender and the sex I was assigned at birth don’t match up should not give me any less right to change it.
sweetbrandigirl2004
While there are TS who have a gid diagnosis and aren’t candidates for surgery because of health reasons they make up a very very small percentage of a already small population of “true” TS and I agree some arrangement should be made for those people to help them change documents, but this effort in NYC isn’t aimed at benefiting “True” TS women it’s aimed solely at helping the mainstream transgender wannabe Horde who wish to pretend to be the opposite gender and it is an effort to help those transgender social deconstructionist in their efforts to force a third gender upon society. This is a pure and simple assault upon the SOC guidelines and upon society by the Transgender Horde simple because society won’t buy into their fantasy and accept a third gender as they’d like. Of course I hold to my belief that those having been diagnosis as GID are Ts and “ AREN’T “ part of the transgender community and therefore aren’t included. I think full assistant and legal rights should be giving those who truly have been diagnosis with a legitimate birth condition, however I do not advocate any rights being given to those in who go off on their own do it yourself transition doing whatever the hell they choose without the counseling or therapy.
As for the statements made in the article concerning the cost of surgery. “Most cannot afford these procedures, and for many, they are medically inappropriate.”
Not being able to afford the procedure does not invalidate the need for the surgery for those who truly have GID, as for the procedure being medical inappropriate for some if that is the case then they have no business livng as the opposite gender to begin with. For if they aren’t Diagnosis as Gender Identity Dysphoric they shouldn’t need to be living in the opposite gender nor do they deserve any legasl rights to change official documents.
“By refusing to give transgender people accurate birth certificates that reflect who they are, the city subjects transgender people to harassment and discrimination in areas like employment where ID is essential to proving eligibility to work.”
Uh they do have document for the gender they truly regardless of what clothes they choose to wear. Giving them new birth certificates when they haven’t had surgery would be falsify documentations.
As long as the city discriminates against transgender people by denying them accurate ID, transgender people will continue to be pushed to the margins of society.”
Uh excuse me but having a fetish or cding, or being transgender doesn’t deserve legal rights in my opinion ONLY those who follow the SOC and are diagnosis as GID should have legal assistant in changing legal documents and be allowed to change birth certificates.
Once upon a time transsexualism was understood to be a person born with genital sex opposite to brain sex. It was also understood that such a birth condition was accompanied by that person’s innate and unrelenting pursuit of physical correction.
With the advent of transgenderism, however, the facts were lost or, more accurately —hijacked. Yes, they’ve stolen our ID. If we believe the transgender mantra, transsexuals are now transgenders, though sometimes it is presented as the other way around. The mix is astonishing: transvestites, cross-dressers, drag queens, she-males,husbands who live as women — either full or part time — while remaining married to their wives (I’ll never understand that!), and the list goes on…….Somewhere in that mix is the forlorn transsexual, the victim of identity theft.
sweetbrandigirl2004
@Jeffree: Actually I wasn’t ranting, but posting an opinion. Also I wasn’t advocating that I be be the only person in the world allowed to change a birth certificate. I was advocating that ONLY those whom have been diagnosis as GID and are whom have completed GRS (gender reassignment surgery) be allowed to change birth certificate. Those who Choose to not to have surgery must live with the consistences of their choice one of which is not being able to change official documents…….and that the way it is.
Zoe Brain
@merkin:
Immutable, eh? Which “immutable factor” do you mean?
Can’t be chromosomes, they can change naturally, or through medical therapy.
Bone marrow-derived cells from male donors can compose endometrial glands in female transplant recipients by Ikoma et al in Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2009 Dec;201(6):608.e1-8 :
CONCLUSION: Donor-derived cells are capable of composing endometrium in recipients, even those of the opposite sex.
Then there’s this and other cases:
PATIENTS: A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis. — J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
So much for chromosomes being immutable, and “XX means female, XY means male, and we pretend the rest are so rare that they don’t exist”.
1 in 300 males don’t have 46XY chromosomes.
Ok, what about Genitalia. Sure, that can be changed by human intervention, but never naturally… Oh Wait! It does change naturally for those with 5Alpha-Reductase-2 Deficiency or 17Beta-Hydroxysteroid-Dehydrogenase-3 Deficiency. Those changes are from F to M. Partial 3Beta-Hydroxysteroid-Dehydrogenase Deficiency can cause late-onset feminisation, from M to F.
Which could be why I was diagnosed with “undervirilised male syndrome” in 1985, and “severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman” in 2005.
So what immutable factors are there, if any? We think we know one. The hormonally-caused organisation of the brain in foetu, which, when activated by hormones (and possibly other environmental factors) post-natally causes the brain to develop in a dimorphic manner.
Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35
The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.
White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. – Rametti et al, J Psychiatr Res. 2010 Jun 8.
CONCLUSIONS: Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals.
A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.
We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.
TLDR version: Sex is defined by the brain’s development in the womb. And Trans people are of the sex they claim to be, anatomically speaking. It’s a form of Intersex, as the rest of the body doesn’t completely match that pattern, that’s the very definition of Transsexuality.
What’s on the Birth Certificate is just a guess, based on approximate external appearance at the time. In some cases of ambiguous genitalia, they literally toss a coin. In other cases, there’s a clerical error. In other cases, appearance at birth is misleading. To say that these markings shouldn’t be corrected when found to be erroneous is brain-dead, if the document is supposed to reflect identity.
Zoe Brain
@merkin:
That’s Mighty White of you sir, Mighty White.
<sarcasm>I too think that gays have the right to feel same-sex attraction, as long as they don’t act on it, because the rules apply to all of us.</sarcasm>
Actually – that really is the Vatican’s position isn’t it?
Jeffree
@Zoe Brain: I appreciate your clear, keen analysis & thinking. It’s a rare talent you have, to instill order amid chaos. Thanks!
missanthrope
@niles:
Yeah, because because people need to prove themselves to your random whim. Your sense of entitlement is sickening.
@ Merkin:
Enjoy the pawnage that Zoe just handed you.
@Jeffree: Thank you 🙂
@sweetbrandihater:
God, I swear the sum of human knowledge decreases with every word you write. You are a horrible person.
Kay
@sweetbrandigirl2004:
Take a step back and realize your privilege. You have zero right to sit there and say what’s right for some people. “Medically inappropriate” does not refer to someone who just doesn’t want surgery for being a “true” transsexual (which, by the way, is a flawed term; why in the world are cis people allowed to determine who is and isn’t a “true” transsexual?). It means that some people may not be candidates for surgery because of anatomical issues, or other factors.
You’re ignorant, and that’s okay, but being STUPID is different and isn’t as excusable. I’m sorry that you somehow think you have the right to police others’ bodies and rights, but you need to get over it.
shaedofblue
@Kay:
Saying that being stupid is inexcusable is ableist and inexcusably hypocritical. Before you lecture people on privilege, check that yours isn’t hanging out of your pants too.
Perhaps terms you could use that do not attack people with cognitive disabilities by comparing them to sweetbrandigirl2004 or descend into technical name-calling are “willfully ignorant,” or “self-centered.”
johndoe
@sweetbrandigirl2004 SO you say “this effort in NYC isn’t aimed at benefiting “True” TS women it’s aimed solely at helping the mainstream transgender wannabe Horde who wish to pretend to be the opposite gender and it is an effort to help those transgender social deconstructionist in their efforts to force a third gender upon society.” …
I’m not sure you’re talking about the “mainstream transgender wannabe Horde”.. every transgender person I’ve come into contact to thus far in my life has been very serious. It takes a lot of courage to even share the fact that you are transgender with your closest acquaintances, could you tell me why someone would want to go through anything that comes with being transgender if it were not in fact true? Also, when you say “force a third gender upon society”.. while some people do identify as a gender other than male or female, many transgendered individuals identify as strongly male or female and are not forcing anything on society.
When you say:
“however I do not advocate any rights being given to those in who go off on their own do it yourself transition doing whatever the hell they choose without the counseling or therapy”
what did you mean when saying “those who go off in their own do it yourself transition doing whatever the hell they choose without the counseling or therapy”? It is nearly impossible to begin hormone therapy or have any sort of surgery without having a longstanding relationship with a counselor or therapist who eventually writes a letter of recommendation for hormone therapy.
There is plenty more I could address but I won’t. I just ask that you get your facts straight before going into attack mode next time.