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  FEMME FATALE

Chris Crocker Wants All You Masculine Gays to Stop Hating on the Femmes

YouTube phenom Chris Crocker has dropped his horrible dye job and teary-eyed screaming defense of Britney Spears to grow a sexy goatee and slam closety butch gays for hating on feminine gays—it’s like the new Hatfields versus McCoys!

He’s right—masculine privilege, gay self-loathing, and gender inequality all play roles in queer social politics and discrimination. Plus, his penultimate video shows he’s been thinking about this for some time… especially while eating “fucking pumpkin seeds.”

Thanks a mint, Towleroad.

By:           Daniel Villarreal
On:           May 5, 2011
Tagged: , ,

  • 61 Comments
    • Cam
      Cam

      I was prepared to role my eyes and another of this guys rants. But the comments were straightforeward and thought out. Sounds like Chris is growing up nicely.

      May 5, 2011 at 10:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pinkish Hugh
      Pinkish Hugh

      I don’t think masculine gay men hate the effeminate — we’re just embarrassed by them, and therefore don’t want to be associated with them. Hate is a strong word, and it shouldn’t be applied in this instance. Save it for blacks, hispanics, muslims, and other groups who really DO hate us.

      May 5, 2011 at 10:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • aleric63
      aleric63

      dude you sound and look like that dude on the movie johns and furthermore we straight acting gays dont want our image tarnished or stereotyped by the quote femmes as you call them power be to all masculine gays we out.

      May 5, 2011 at 10:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeff K
      Jeff K

      @Pinkish Hugh: Perfect response! No hate at all. I believe femme behavior is learned/self-desired behavior and promotes bad stereotypes.

      May 5, 2011 at 10:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chad
      Chad

      Well gents, “masculine” behavior is just as learned and promotes as many “bad stereotypes”.

      Crocker has some very good points.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • PersonOfInterest
      PersonOfInterest

      @aleric63: I like what you said . . . although I didn’t understand most of it.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Drew H.
      Drew H.

      @Pinkish Hugh:

      That’s an incredibly generalizing statement. I think he brings up some valid points. It has always intrigued me as a black gay man how we have to contend with the disapproval & discrimination from both the straight & gay community.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • IAbuseGays
      IAbuseGays

      @Jeff K: I completely agree. Being gay is totally learned. Thank you for admitting this.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Adrian Acosta
      Adrian Acosta

      I have a question for those who consider themselves masculine gay men reading this and who don’t like femme guys:

      How do you feel about straight men who crossdress?

      Reason I ask is because I often wonder if masculine gay guys have a problem with Femme gay guys because they both have the same sexual orientation.

      How do you feel about straight men who behave in a femme way? I get a very large number of this type of man reading my blog each day, that’s why I ask.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rodca
      rodca

      @aleric63 If one’s image is going to be tarnished because of who they associate with in our community, they must not have much of an image to begin with. Insecurity leads to overcompensating.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Fitz
      Fitz

      I give myself permission to be as butch or girlie as I want to be. That being said, I like men.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ChadLad
      ChadLad

      As a gay guy who u’d never suspect, I’ve always had issues w femme or affected gay guys repng the gay comm, but I have changed my tune. They really are just that way and not putting on a show. Also the masc gay stereotype is comingg along nicely in the media w Bros &Sis 90210 etc so Im happy bout that. I think my most difficult lesson in life is acceptiong we live in a world of opposites. But I’m werkn on it!

      May 5, 2011 at 11:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Elloreigh
      Elloreigh

      Why can’t people just be themselves? Why be “straight acting” or “fabulously femme”? I’ll tell you why:

      People who refer to themselves as “straight acting” clearly think that by doing so, they’re more likely to be accepted in mainstream society.

      Meanwhile, those who have opted to adopt a flamboyant feminine persona do so largely as a big “FU!” to the rejection from mainstream society.

      That isn’t to say that people don’t naturally gravitate toward expressing themselves in varying degrees of masculinity or femininity. But it should be noted that what constitutes masculine or feminine norms varies from culture to culture. So let’s not pretend that it isn’t learned from one’s culture. The fact that it becomes second-nature doesn’t negate that.

      Let’s also not pretend that the adoption of masculine or feminine behavior isn’t influenced by our experiences of acceptance or rejection within the gay community as we first encounter it upon coming out, either.

      So, my problem isn’t with gay people who are masculine or feminine. What I reject is fake behavior. What I reject is behavior that tries to keep one’s true self hidden in a closet, or which screams “Look at me! I want your attention!”

      It is no secret that mainstream society rejects non-conforming behavior. If you’re gay, “acting straight” might gain you some degree of acceptance and privilege – but it does not mean your orientation and same-sex behavior will be accepted or embraced.

      Get this through your heads: Most of the people who hate gay people do so either because they’re ignorant about homosexuality, or just plain bigoted toward it. Or they just find it “icky”. No amount of “acting straight” will overcome that. Gay is gay, regardless of masculine or feminine mannererisms.

      As for the fabulous femmes, you can be both gay and open without shouting it from the rooftops. If you say “FU!” to conforming with mainstream behavior, then experiencing rejection shouldn’t come as any big surprise. So stop whining about it already.

      None of which means I’m a conformist, or advocate the same. My advice is be yourself, and don’t be surprised if there are some people who don’t get it or can’t handle it. But I’d also advise that you pause and ask yourself if this is really who you want to be. Have the grace to accept what you can’t change, the will to change what you can, and the wisdom to know the difference between the two.

      I don’t consider myself masculine or feminine. I honestly just don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it. People will perceive me as either one according to their own subjective standards. I’m not going to put on an act just to please them, nor will I go out of my way to poke them in the eye with my fabulous gayness. I’m not going to hide, but I’m not going to make myself a target, either.

      I’m an independent thinker. As such, I’ll make up my own mind how I want to behave. If someone has a problem with that, it’s their problem. If they hassle me, I’ll decide within the context of the situation whether to give it back to them in spades, or whether it’s better to simply walk away and save the fight for another day.

      Bottom line: When you make yourself a target, expect people to shoot arrows and throw things. Likewise, hiding from the culture war by passing for straight won’t prevent you from becoming a casualty of it, either.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @IAbuseGays: said…”@Jeff K: I completely agree. Being gay is totally learned. Thank you for admitting this.”
      _____________________________

      You’ve been on the site now for a few days saying things like this and since nobody else seems to have told you yet, I guess I will.

      No real straight person would bother wasting this much time on a gay blog…it would be boring for them, it’s why gay men don’t watch lesbian porn, there isn’t anything there to hold our attention.

      The fact that you have been on here so much now, commenting, etc… We all know you are gay….every single one of us. The only person you may be fooling is your mother, but you know what? She probably knows too.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Drew H.
      Drew H.

      @Elloreigh:

      Well put. I couldn’t agree more.

      May 5, 2011 at 12:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Soupy
      Soupy

      “Bottom line: When you make yourself a target, expect people to shoot arrows and throw things.”

      Do “they” know that they are making themselves a target? Expressing your true individuality, does that make you a “target”. It sounds so similar to the old argument that if you wear a short skirt, you’re asking to be raped.

      May 5, 2011 at 12:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Matthew
      Matthew

      @Jeff K: First, the false dichotomy of “learned” or “biologically determined” behaviour is a false dichotomy that has done a lot to obscure reasoned debate. Second, and more importantly, your argument implies that “feminine” behaviour promotes bad stereotypes for the LGBT community, and therefore justifies social ostracizing – or in Pinkish Hugh’s (a rather ironic name for someone who finds feminine things distasteful) words, “[I] therefore don’t want to associate with them”. This is more than a little reminiscent of teenagers who distance themselves from the so-called feminine boys at schools because they are embarrassed to be seen with them. Third, in response to Pinkish Hugh, you don’t like others promoting bad stereotypes but you just spoke on behalf of all “masculine” men (so awesome you get to pick which you are!), promoting the stereotype that they are all assholes like you. Also, speaking of assholes and bad stereotypes, “Save it for blacks, hispanics, muslims, and other groups who really DO hate us.” Really? Really?

      May 5, 2011 at 12:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ChadLad
      ChadLad

      CAM

      Thanks for summing up what is the obvious about IAbusegays. Very well put. Now it’s time to move onto real people with productive intent rather than this poor guys negative-attention attempt at trying to heal his mangey mind at others’ expense.

      May 5, 2011 at 12:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WiscoGay
      WiscoGay

      As someone who “blends,” I’d have to agree with Chris on this one. I do somewhat relish the look on the band of straight men I do hang out with when we are talking baseball and I order a cosmo.

      At times, I can get a little annoyed with very feminine gay men, partially because I suppose I am attracted to men, and my brain associates certain things with the male sex to the masculine identity. For this bias, I do apologize to all the feminine guys out there. You can be just as attractive and fun as masculine guys.

      But yes, sometimes I will roll my eyes at you, much like you will roll your eyes at me when I talk about the Packers new draft picks. We should be cognizant of our biases, differences, and discriminatory behavior, but I don’t think it will ever be truly purged from our psyches.

      May 5, 2011 at 1:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jess
      Jess

      Oh this tired argument. Ok time for a history lesson. Who were the ones standing up to the establishment throwing up a big middle finger during Stonewall? Hint, it wasn’t the “straight acting” I only have sex in public restrooms and play it straight in the light of day homos. It was the ever loving FU heels wearing queens who really gave the gay rights movement some momentum. In other words, the femmes. God bless them!

      May 5, 2011 at 1:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Benevolence
      Benevolence

      Why is being so effiminate, flashy, and showy so embarrassing?

      This question is directed towards the masc gays.

      If you don’t want the stereotyped gay in your face labeled by the straighties, the best way to combat that is to come out of the closet and show people that gay isn’t just being into dancy pop and swishyness. Don’t complain if you are too embarassed to tell people that not all gays are like that because you are one yourself.

      On some subconscious level, I really think masc gays are jealous of fem gays because they can’t come out and say they are gay to the straights. Unlike the fem gays, who will make sure you know and are perfectly fine showing you who they are.

      Now while I think sometimes it’s a bit excessive for the flaming gays to act like a diva in public, I appreciate the fact that they are willing to step up and show the world who they are rather than be drowned in monotonic blahness.

      I’d rather choose people who came to terms and willing to live their own personality rather than be stuck in a boring rut of plain-ness.

      As I told my straight friends, this coming from a slight to moderate effiminate, but totally awesome and fabulous bisexualish man….stop being so vanilla, y’all.

      May 5, 2011 at 1:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joe
      Joe

      Awesome video. I’ve been thinking about this issue a lot. The hatred oppressed groups feel for each other, masculine gay guys for whom its harder to come out because it is so unexpected of them and they might feel they have more to lose because of the greater acceptance they receive as “passers” opposed to feminine gay guys who often don’t get to choose how/when they get perceived as/treated as a gay person and suffer persecution in and out of the closet.
      The people who bother you the most, give you the most irksome response are often reflecting something you hate about yourself. That’s why Cam called out IAbuseGays for being a homo, cause we all know the biggest phobes are actually gay. And femmes are hateful for the same reason. They reflect back upon us our own feminine side that men have been taught from day one to abhor and deny with vehemence. Whats the best compliment a father can give to a son? He calls him a Man. Whats the worst spurs used upon teenage boys, sissy, faggot, bitch, anything that challenges their status as a man.
      It all ties back to sexism really, even racism has some roots in sexism (the fear of the perceived hyper-masculine black male with a giant penis taking all the white man’s women is the most classic example and it has existed since slavery), which is such a problem in the gay community. We like to rant and rave about how blacks hate on us- but you must be shutting your eyes to how gays treat blacks even those (or maybe especially those) who are gay as well.
      I hope we grow where masc gays will protect femmes rather than help bring them down, and that femmes will give mascs support in return. I hope more gays stand up for people of color and women, and do so openly so that we can invite them to stand with us. There is no enemy, there is no group to defeat, not even rich straight white males, because some of them are alright too. The enemy is us, our fears, our boxed in world of generalizations, our phobia towards difference and the cyclic nature of abuse and oppression. That last one most of all.

      May 5, 2011 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      He is definitely damaged goods. It is beyond ironic that someone going around bitching about people hating is swearing and giving others the finger. pathetic. PS: There is no gay community for many gay people. That is an urban ghetto mentality.

      May 5, 2011 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TikiHead
      TikiHead

      I hate to contribute to the stigmatization of femmes, but Chris looks much cuter to me with his tank top and stubble than he does in a tight skirt, bleached hair and makeup.

      May 5, 2011 at 2:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      Someone should tell him to know who specifically he is hating. It’s all wasted energy. He is not focused at all. He resembles a drunken episode.

      May 5, 2011 at 2:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      someone feed his as well. he looks like hell and that nasty attitude makes him even more unattractive. There is just too much bad karma he needs to work through. How about this for some love: good luck.

      May 5, 2011 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ColoredFruitFly
      ColoredFruitFly

      @Pinkish Hugh:

      I’m sorry, but as a heterosexual black woman who happens to love and embrace gay culture, I must say that first of all, calling out specific groups like that is despicable, and makes you come across as ignorant. As does your open and absurd embarrassment towards feminine gay men. They cannot help being effeminate anymore than you can help being a masculine prick.

      May 5, 2011 at 2:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @ColoredFruitFly:

      He also seemed to miss the point that 99% of all those GOP congressmen working against our rights happen to be pretty darn White. lol

      May 5, 2011 at 2:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Holy Shit!
      Holy Shit!

      @Joe

      You win. Everything you said sums up my feelings exactly. We should be helping each other, not pointing fingers and assigning blame. We should be dismantling structures of oppression, not capitulating to them.

      May 5, 2011 at 3:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • divkid
      divkid

      yes chris some good points.
      or, the antipathy could be due to a proportion of masc guy and a femme guy simply have nothing in common — well, except, that given the choice, all things being equal, they’d BOTH prefer the more masculine guy, sexually.

      is *that* self-loathing, or not? that shouldn’t be overlooked if you’re apportioning blame for discrimination. femmes can’t play the victim card on this ’till y’all get your own swishy house in order. hear me now bitches.

      May 5, 2011 at 5:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SKOC211
      SKOC211

      Gender norms, in all forms, are destructive.

      Gender, beyond the strictly physiological, is a social construction that evolves over time and varies between societies. I firmly believe that gender norms are where homophobia arises from, and bitching amongst ourselves about which is preferable is ignorant and reductive.

      The whole world would be a far better place if we weren’t so focused on gender and forcing everyone into neat little boxes. Because you know what happens when people inevitably fall outside of those boxes? They frequently get targeted, attacked, and killed.

      May 5, 2011 at 5:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Elloreigh
      Elloreigh

      @Soupy:
      I said:

      “Bottom line: When you make yourself a target, expect people to shoot arrows and throw things.”

      You replied:

      Do “they” know that they are making themselves a target? Expressing your true individuality, does that make you a “target”. It sounds so similar to the old argument that if you wear a short skirt, you’re asking to be raped.

      I respond thusly:

      I’m afraid you’ve missed the point entirely. Do you really believe most people are so completely oblivious that they don’t honestly know whether their behavior is conforming to societal norms at a given place and time? Really?

      Just so we’re clear: I’ve nothing against expressing one’s individuality. It would be nice if we lived in a world where people could do that without fear of being marginalized for not conforming. The point is, we don’t live in such a world and likely never will.

      Fear of difference is a survival instinct. Humans have not evolved to a point where we’re fully free of its effects. There will likely always be people who allow themselves to be ruled by their fear of difference. Plus we all have things we find annoying. Mine happens to be that I don’t like people who lie, misrepresent, mislead and those who try to constantly be the center of attention.

      Also, humans are social animals, which means there will likely always be certain norms for what is considered acceptable behavior and what isn’t. They arise in part from what I mentioned above – that we all have things we find annoying, infuriating, scary, etc. When enough people share those values and fears, societal norms rise up surrounding them.

      Some societal norms make sense, like not approving of cold-blooded murder, as this is disruptive to the safety and security of those who comprise a society. Other societal norms ought to be challenged, such as homophobia.

      I don’t subscribe to the school of thought that absolves people from personal responsibility – including a responsibility to ensure their own safety and security to the best of their abilities. While I don’t have a problem with effeminate men or masculine women, I do acknowledge the reality that these are things some people hate, just like some bigots hate gay people just because it’s a difference and they fear difference.

      There isn’t much you can do about someone else’ hangups. But you don’t need to pour gasoline on the fire by adopting an affectation that you’re 1) conscious of, and 2) taking on because you think it makes you interesting and thus draws attention. My point was don’t be surprised if you receive unwanted attention from those whose solution to their revulsion isn’t to remove themselves from the situation, but to remove that which they perceive as ‘offensive’ instead.

      So while wearing a miniskirt isn’t an invitation to be raped, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that some of the attention it receives may be unwelcome. That isn’t to say no one should wear a miniskirt. It means do so with an awareness of the potential dangers and avoid situations that put you at risk.

      Likewise, acknowledge the fact that to a bigot, male effeminacy is indeed the equivalent of having a target on your back – whether you put it there yourself by adopting affected behavior, or just by having the misfortune to be naturally effeminate in a society that doesn’t accept it. It sucks that this is the way things are, and you’re free to bitch about it, but to what purpose? Asserting your right to express yourself however you see fit isn’t going to make a hateful bigot any less likely to attack that behavior, and you as a person by extension.

      There’s a difference between acknowledging a reality and advocating on behalf of retaining that reality. My earlier post was the former, not the latter. Hopefully this post clarifies that. I’m not saying cower in fear. Nor am I saying pretend to be a straight, masculine ‘he-man’. I’m saying that if you think everyone else has to refrain from making critical, negative and even unfair remarks, then you have a lot to learn.

      Owning one’s feminine side means taking the good with the bad. Deal with it.

      May 5, 2011 at 6:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Devington
      Devington

      And I want Chris Crocker to go away forever.

      I don’t think either one of us is gonna get our way.

      May 5, 2011 at 7:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @SKOC211: said…

      “Gender norms, in all forms, are destructive.

      Gender, beyond the strictly physiological, is a social construction that evolves over time and varies between societies”
      ______________________________

      Actually no, studies prove you wrong. In study after study little children raised to neutralize any type of gender norm will still usually break to behaviors that are the norm for their gender….the one exception seemed to be gays.

      Your post is a belief that is held up by socialogy professors who wish it were so but it has been debunked in study after study.

      May 5, 2011 at 7:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • skoc211
      skoc211

      @Cam: Examples or it didn’t happen.

      May 5, 2011 at 7:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mjcc1987
      mjcc1987

      Well said. By the way, I am what you would call a “straight” acting cock sucker. But I am not acting, I am who I am and like Chris, I don’t judge and just don’t care if the guy I am with is “butch” or “fem” or whatever term you want to apply. I am with him cause he’s cute and a great fuck. Period. I think this is an issue for older guys

      May 5, 2011 at 7:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GayGOP
      GayGOP

      I wish this issue would die out. I really do. Some of us do “blend in” with the male straights, and some, well, not so much. Frankly, who cares? I know I certainly do not care. If I hang out with a guy who’s feminine, it’s because he has the qualities I want in a friend, or if I am dating him, then it’s because he’s got the qualities that I want in a potential husband. That same rationale applies to more masculine men.

      I just do not get the embarrassment, or the dislike, of someone just because of their nature. It really is time for Femme-phobia to die out.

      May 5, 2011 at 9:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • delurker
      delurker

      @Pinkish Hugh: You’re a dumb cunt. Sorry, no offense.

      May 5, 2011 at 9:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • delurker
      delurker

      @ColoredFruitFly: He’s a dumb (white) cunt. What do you expect?

      May 5, 2011 at 9:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The sane Francis
      The sane Francis

      What’s interesting is how masculine gay men will say they hate gay stereotypes and dislike femme gay men for that reason, but then do nothing to prevent these stereotypes from existing. Heck, many more feminine gay men hate these stereotypes, since they may be fem but aren’t completely flaming, yet do little to nothing to combat these stereotypes. The reason? Because these men don’t want to associate with the word and image GAY.

      And why is that? Because gay=not a real man/less of a man, at least in the eyes of the men that these gay men desperate seek acceptance with, or in their own eyes. It’s all an overcompensation. I can’t really say it’s masculine gay men or less-femme gay men who are the issue, though. It’s those who identify as straight acting. And then castigate feminine gay men and say they put on acts. There is no such thing as straight acting. Straight is a sexual orientation. If you define your entire identity on an ACT of something you are NOT, you have serious personal issues to address.

      Ultimately, this is a sexism/misogyny issue that’s reflected throughout society, but is even more intense within the gay community due to the extra pressures we face. Ultimately, it’s up to everyone to accept each other as they are, differences and all.

      May 5, 2011 at 11:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • E.R.
      E.R.

      @Pinkish Hugh: What is embarrassing is ignorant, racist a-holes like yourself for the gay community. People like you who have huge issues and phobia regarding femininity that challenges your conformist social norms.
      Also I love how you self-describe as straight “acting”, and I love how, somehow, gay=white in your mind and that the enemy is the non white. There are no gay blacks, gay Hispanics or gay Muslims, and no white homophobes. Yeah, you are part of the problem and you’re precisely the kind of person Chris Crocker talks about in this video.
      Same goes to @Jeff K

      May 6, 2011 at 12:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ruhlmann
      Ruhlmann

      @Pinkish Hugh: Do you think heterosexual bigots differentiate between masculine and feminine homosexuals? In my late teens and early twenties I was constantly harrased by women who just couldn’t accept that because I didn’t “act” gay I couldn’t possibly be gay. Much more was their discomfort and ultimate rejection of me for not living up to their impressions of me. I don’t expect any of my freinds to be anything but comfortable in their skin wherever they register on the masc/fem scale because I am comfortably homosexual. As I have heard it said many times by heterosexual men in the context of bisexuality “you suck cock or you don’t”. I suspect you may have self esteem issues Pinky.

      May 6, 2011 at 4:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jeff4justice
      jeff4justice

      Amen Chris. It’s not only femme gays who get discriminated against.

      Please see my vids:
      OK As Is (1/3): Gay & Overweight
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-wSpbhsAfg
      OK As Is (2/3): I live In My SUV
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJakG2Jv9KI
      OK As Is (3/3): Emotional Eater Struggler

      May 6, 2011 at 5:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @skoc211: said…

      @Cam: Examples or it didn’t happen.

      ————————–
      skoc211, my reply was in response to YOUR comment of…

      Gender norms, in all forms, are destructive.

      Gender, beyond the strictly physiological, is a social construction that evolves over time and varies between societies.
      ——

      You refused to provide a link to one single study backing up your claim and yet are demanding links from somebody else? This shows that you know that links SHOULD be provided and yet you didn’t do that to back up YOUR statement. Why would that be? Most likely because you know that your statement has no backing and you were just stating an opinion as fact, so nice try.

      Oh and just for good measure, a link for you….

      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/health/10gene.html?ex=1187236800&en=b8ee8ae30451c2e9&ei=5070

      May 6, 2011 at 9:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • aleric63
      aleric63

      @IAbuseGays: you said being gay is learned i beg to differ if you go into a bathroom while youre 6 years old and see other boys dicks and know thats what you want then its not learned the way i see it i was born gay not learned gay and no gay is not a preference either you know youre different and so you move with it. what you had to say borders on heracy from the dark ages am i clear on that? peace out.

      May 6, 2011 at 10:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ChadLad
      ChadLad

      I don’t have issues w femme guys, which I see as soft receptive caring nurturing etc. Me older brother is str8 and always got branded gay. My issue in the past has been w the gay personna, swishy, loud, inciteful, angry at the world, taken out in a pompous drag queen format. Women are feminine and don’t have those affectations or personna traits.
      When i was a kid, the guys on my block would get together all the time and play tons if different outdoor games, and we also sucked cock and jacked each other off. One guy was really obviously gay and we were not, there were 5 of us 7 to 10 years old. Back then i didn’t care and i sucked his cock anyway. As i grew up i realized i didn’t want anyone to know i was gay, so that gay personna didn’t work w my straight personna, so though one might call it embarrassment, it was really fear of being found out by the entire world i was gay. A chosen few fine, but the whole world was overwhelming.
      Now i have more compassion as these guys are the ones targetted, even if they are str8. It’s phobia for sure and we all have phobias. Just cuz i have a str8 personna doesn’t mean i don’t have problems.
      But i do think we need to give our gay personna brothers alot of support for carrying the “out” cross. To me that would have been devastating.

      May 6, 2011 at 11:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Yaël
      Yaël

      If any of us wants to expect tolerance, acceptance and support from the hetero majority, we need to extend that same beneficence within the LGB communities.

      If I can’t stand up for the dignity and rights of my so-called effeminate or flamboyant friends, then I have lost not only their companionship, but also respect for myself.

      And I would be a hypocrite to claim the upper hand morally when dealing with homophobes if I treat my own lgb sisters and brothers with anything close to disparagement.

      May 7, 2011 at 7:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John
      John

      After Stonewall, we fought for sexual liberation for all, for the right to be whoever the fuck you are. Thanks to the Democratic Party takevoer in the late 70s, we’ve been stuck with the “gay rights” movement, in which the more acceptable you are to the people who hate you, the more rights (crumbs) you get. Fuck that. I demand equality in all.

      “Straight-acting” = homophobe

      May 11, 2011 at 12:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • declanto
      declanto

      @Cam: you rock! Thanks for a great link. I be me, you be you. Survival is in diversity.

      May 12, 2011 at 6:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kalexandrian
      Kalexandrian

      @Jeff K: Perfect response! No hate at all. I believe Homosexual behavior is learned/self-desired behavior and promotes bad stereotypes.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 2:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jay P
      Jay P

      I know this is a generalization, but I sometimes feel that being gay has become synonymous with being hostile… ie the comments above.

      A lot of us hate on each other for numerous reasons, whether its femininity or race. It’s easier to hate, rather than to actually take the time to understand and accept.

      Odd that I’ve been telling this to gays, including my friends. Eh maybe its human nature. lol

      Jun 20, 2011 at 6:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony
      Anthony

      @Pinkish Hugh: “embarassed by them” is a form of discrimination.Do you really believe they can control it? If you do that’s naive and I’m sorry but it does add fuel to the fire of hate that the “black, hispanics, etc” spew. What’s there to be embarrased about? I mena if they’re being who they are and that bothers you….um that sounds like what the blacks/others say too.

      @Jeff K: Lol you clearly don’t know anything about psychology. It is somewhat a learned behavior but for the most part not really. You’ll find that femme gays have masculine fathers so…um why aren’t they masculine? Now for you to say it is self desired is the same exact argument the opposition to gay rights says about homosexuality itself. I mean if femme gays are discriminated against by some masculine gays, and on top of that the ohter half that doesn’t discriminate against them isn’t attracted to them on a sexual/personal level. Why would they desire to be that way? I mean by implication you’re saying they ask for the discrimination. Which by circumstance means they desire gay bashing since it most often occurs to the more effeminate ones.

      @Elloreigh: “bottom line when you make yourself a target expect people to shoot arrows” I’m unsure if anyone else has made this comparison, but um…..that’s what a lot of misogynists say about women wearing a short skirt; that they should expect to be targeted for rape. Sure we should feel secure and when subjected to societal norms we do what makes use feel secure. The thing is I highly doubt the masculine gays do it to feel secure. They are just lucky to somehow have the mannerisms of masculinity while effeminate ones do not. They should not be forced to supress it. That falls right in line with the heterosexuals saying gays should suppress their sexual desires. They simple weren’t lucky enough to be born attracted to the opposite sex, but for safety it should be suppressed

      @aleric63: You don’t want your rep tarnished? Um what rep? The one he is speaking of. The one about your pathetic need to experience duality? Granted if being masculine is who you are. Go with it. Femme gays don’t put on an act. Some do I will admit, but let’s be serious. The really really flamboyant ones are probably the only ones in that category. Your comment assimilates with the bigots who dislike homosexuals as a whole. It tarnishes their rep according to them as well. You need to bring you ego down by many levels. Confidence is a must, but arrogance is annoying.

      Jul 6, 2011 at 9:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert Byrd
      Robert Byrd

      well its like this if gays was more man than woman then us straight acting men wouldnt be so offended by fem gays and thier unstable minds also if shows like Rupauls The Drag Race wouldnt stereo type us gays we would not be so angry so take that with a bat.

      Jul 6, 2011 at 10:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Annony
      Annony

      @Robert Byrd: I have to say Ru Paul’s Drag race is for Drag queens which are like what? roughly 8% of the entire gay community?

      If you really don’t want your precious image ruined, come out and stop hiding your sexual orientation, let people know of your existence.

      You see: the cross-dressers are making shows, the fem gays are shouting and yelling, the bears are having parades of their own. What are you doing? Hiding behind a mask of masculinity and straightness and then bitch about it?

      Jul 12, 2011 at 6:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Victor B
      Victor B

      I as a masculine gay man would like to ask exactly how are feminine gay men discriminated against by masculine gay men?

      Nov 11, 2011 at 1:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • justnow
      justnow

      @Victor B:
      They criticism them when they see them, mostly in photos.

      Nov 25, 2011 at 5:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • matt
      matt

      I am a masculine gay man and a wholeheartedly agree. I know it is human nature to discriminate against those who are unlike yourself but it pains me to see so many gays treat certain groups within the community with the same sort of resentment that bigots display towards us. Femme guys, old guys, people with HIV, these people just want to be themselves and live their lives too. You don’t have to like hanging out with them or anything but I’m so tired of hearing people, even my own boyfriend, insulting these people and putting them down just for being different.

      Nov 25, 2011 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CBRad
      CBRad

      Effeminate gay men, or at least “gay-acting” ones, certainly discriminate against the more masculine “straight-type” homos too, though. Some of the effeminate ones get very vicious and bitter about that.

      Nov 25, 2011 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • flick222
      flick222

      For me, as a gay man, it’s not the fact that Crocker is femme that is so bothersome, it’s the very tiring stereotype of attitude, drama, and bitchiness. It’s not funny, it’s not cute, and drag queens have been doing it for years, and it’s very tiresome. Crocker had the perfect opportunity when reinventing his look, to also reinvent his attitude. And no, I don’t buy that the way he acts in his videos is just him being himself, feminine may be being himself, but not the crappy attitude. And furthermore it’s very saddening that when he went through this physical transformation, which by the way I have heard inside people say that he looks better than Justin Timberlake in his prime, and could have been a mainstream player, that he decided to go into adult entertainment. So, here was a gay guy with an extreme opportunity to do something positive for the gay community by being so well known, that he throws away a chance to be a great role model for the younger LGBT’s by getting nude and having sex in front of a camera. So Chris, when you ask the gay community to be nicer to femmes, well, why don’t you learn to be nicer in general. Your fans think it’s cute, the majority of us do not. So basically as many can tell, I don’t have a problem with femmes, I have a problem with how one is presenting himself to a younger generation of femme guys, and clearly showing them the wrong way to behave and become liked and respected in our community.

      Dec 25, 2011 at 5:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RudikRus
      RudikRus

      Why should I listen to someone that has tarnish their image by doing amateur bareback porn?

      Oct 17, 2012 at 5:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • douglassnow
      douglassnow

      Feminine gays don’t seem to realize how repulsive they are to masculine gays–not just not attractive, and not just “embarrassing.” Most gay men, especially masculine gay men, aren’t just not attracted to the feminine half of the universe, they’re actively repulsed, grossed out and repelled by it. Vaginaphobia is NOT a learned or acquired characteristic of gay men–and it isn’t something we’ve made up. We simply, honestly, don’t like ladies, or their bits, and we’d rather have sex with a dead goat than with a sissy. It has nothing whatever to do with maintaining our cover. As a matter of fact, I’m totally out to all my friends and acquaintances (none of whom are effeminate), and the reason that I have no nelly queens for friends is that, apart from being sexually repulsed by them, I find their loud, vulgar, affected ill manners intolerable. Crocker comes close to saying that he can’t help his ill-bred flamboyance, and that it’s not a mere, despicable, deliberate affectation; but, sincere or insincere, alas, it strikes me as hateful.

      Feb 7, 2014 at 1:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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