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Dan Choi At Netroots Nation Commits Conduct Unbecoming An Officer

At the LGBT Netroots Nation pre-conference, all the queers agreed to really listen, engage others’ ideas with an open mind, and never resort to personal attacks or drama. But apparently no one told Dan Choi.

During his panel entitled, “What to Do When the President is Just Not that Into You,” Choi ripped up a campaign volunteer’s pamphlet and threw it at him. The reason: the Obama campaign volunteer tried to tell Choi about the President’s position on marriage equality. Way to keep an open, drama-free mind, Mr. Choi.

Here’s what happened:

Lt. Dan Choi ripped up an “Obama for America” pamphlet that a campaign volunteer delivered to the stage as he tried to explain the President’s position on marriage equality, Think Progress reports.

Said the volunteer to Choi, and another member of the panel: “I can’t say I’m for marriage equality, but as a bisexual man, I would take a bullet for both of you.”

The young man was Nick Tschida, an Obama campaign volunteer somewhere in his teenage years or in his early twenties.

Choi became angry [at Tschida], tore up the flyer, and threw it at the man, saying, “Did you not understand? Here! I believe that I’m an equal citizen.”

Replied the volunteer: “I understand that, but Obama hasn’t gone officially on record for it…”

Said Choi: “Then, don’t tell me that I’m a bad person, go tell him that he should believe in my full equality and then report back.”

When asked about it later, Choi said:

“Sometimes love comes in harsh forms. I love my detractors enough to let them know when they are misguided and I only regret that we are both suffering under a second-class citizenship imposed by politicians who smile pleasantly while denying our fight for justice. The harshest treatment would be our acquiescence to the view that we do not deserve equality.”

By all accounts, Tschida was saying that as a volunteer for the Obama campaign, he could not publicly support marriage equality because it could be construed as the Obama campaign supporting marriage equality—a position they’re currently backing off from.

It’s too bad that Choi reacted so dramatically and shut down the young man instead of actually discussing, y’know, what to do when you’re not so into the President. You’d think that being at a progressive conference for social rights, Choi would display the kind of engagement, tact, and leadership that befits a military officer and a queer political figure. But instead he drama-queened out, ensuring his media spotlight and overshadowing the actual content of his panel.

We usually support Choi in his endeavors but not this rude conduct. Like glitter bombing, at a certain point he has to ask what effect he intended to achieve with his humiliating display beyond shaming a member of our community over an earnest attempt to discuss queer politics.

By:           Daniel Villarreal
On:           Jun 17, 2011
Tagged: ,

  • 133 Comments
    • Nelson G
      Nelson G

      In as much as I believe Choi is anti Obama and probably helping the Republicans in their quest to prevent DADT repeal from taking effect, Choi was justified in his actions.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 5:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CJH
      CJH

      Choi is right! Why should we blindly throw support behind a president who won’t even utter the words “marriage equality” (in fact, as of today, he denies EVER having been in favor of marriage equality!). We as a community need to stand shoulder to shoulder and tell the President that if he expects our support, we expect his! No half-measures!

      And Queerty owes Dan Choi an apology for this horrendous headline! Choi was RIGHT!

      Jun 17, 2011 at 5:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Improbable
      Improbable

      I say hooray. He’s right.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 5:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • orpheus_lost
      orpheus_lost

      What do you do when polite discussion goes nowhere?

      This volunteer knows just as well as Obama that a minority in this country is being unconstitutionally deprived of their civil and human rights granted by the 14th Amendment. They have decided to ignore our liberties for the sake of political expediency but we are supposed to sit down to tea with them and humbly beg, again, for our rights. There has been far too much of this already thanks to HRC and other enabling faux GLBT rights organizations. It’s time to make our disgust known!

      I will never again vote for a candidate for any office who believes in subjugating part of the populace for personal gain. Let all the apologists scream about Palin and Bachmann but there comes a time to stand up for oneself. For me, that time came when I saw our “fierce advocate” embrace Rick Warren – a man who advocated for the murder of gays in Uganda before being called out on it.

      What fool supports a politician who buddies around with those who want to kill them?

      Jun 17, 2011 at 5:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Fitz
      Fitz

      Every since he took a paycheck from GOP Proud, I always say his formal name: Dan psych-ward Choi, when needing to refer to him.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 5:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Polyboy
      Polyboy

      Sure Orpheus, stand up for yourself right into a re-education camp.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 5:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Reader
      Reader

      What an egomaniac. He was a perfect talking head during DADT, but now that his 15 minutes are up he doesn’t know what to do with himself, so he pulls publicity stunts.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 5:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CJH
      CJH

      @Fitz: Sounds like someone fell for the political hack-job dished up by the fine folks over at LezGetReal. . . they’re the only ones who tried to sell that bill of goods. We learned this week just how reliable they are, didn’t we.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Teddypig
      Teddypig

      LezGetReal was “fake” much like their information.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ray
      Ray

      There is nothing wrong with being vocal that we will not support people who do not support us.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 6:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aaron
      Aaron

      Sorry queerty, your reasoning is what allows the Dems to pussyfoot around our issues and not deliver. Choi was totally right.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 6:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nick Thiwerspoon
      Nick Thiwerspoon

      Choi was right. In the secrecy of the ballot box you may vote for Obama because though he doesn’t support us, the others are demented ChrisTalibans, but there’s no need to pretend to accept the government’s position in public. Good on you Dan!

      Jun 17, 2011 at 7:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Elloreigh
      Elloreigh

      Choi’s reaction might have been a tad extreme, but I agree with the sentiment. It’s pretty clear that as long as we settle for pats on the head and feel good statements as a substitute for substantive progress, we aren’t going to get much of anywhere.

      I’m not about to go vote Republican, but if Obama and his minions continue to piss me off, I am willing to reward them by sitting out the election. They sure as hell aren’t getting my money.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 7:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      Jehovah’s Witnesses should avoid knocking on Dan’s door. Buggar off and here’s your Watchtower back!

      Jun 17, 2011 at 7:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Geoff B
      Geoff B

      Not thrilled with Obama’s stance on this issue, or a lot of his other stances, but I’d rather have a half-assed ally in office than an avowed enemy. With the current slate of GOP candidates , Obama will get my half assed support. My vote , but no money and no other effort.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 7:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fredo777
      fredo777

      Whether or not you agree with his stance on the issue, I don’t see how tearing something up + throwing it at some kid was “right”. It was totally tactless + reflected more poorly on Choi than on the Obama campaign he was denouncing. It would have been much more effective had he stumped the guy in a serious debate about WHY he felt voting for Obama was voting for second-class status than having a temper tantrum.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 7:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lb
      lb

      I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore! Republicans are more honest; we know they are against us. But the man who ran on change, signed a pledge in support of gay marriage in Illinois when it suited his goals, and took our political donations, now “struggles” with his personal view on the subject, is not our friend/supporter.

      I cannot tell you disheartened I was in a room of progressive friends who were cheering that Obama won as the same newscast, nearly drowned out by their celebration, told my partner and I that prop 8 passed. The same election where prop 2, the Prevention of Farm Animal Cruelty Act won by 63%. More voters voted to protect animal rights than gay/human rights.

      Time and time again, we’ve learned that we have to fight for our rights. I only have contempt for a bisexual who does not support marriage for gay people. Like Dan I think Ned can keep his damn paperwork.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 7:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ronbo
      ronbo

      Obama is not a half-assed ally. He says whatever he needs to say, then works against us. Remember when he called himself “firece supporter” then tabled DADT? We have Reid and Pelosi to thank for doing the right thing.

      Obama serves to put a Democratic face on Republican policy. Continued wars. Expanding CIA wars. No prosecution for the Bank Bailout/Crisis. Increasted prosecution of whistle-blowers. Expanded violation of search and seizure. Less privacy. I could go on and on. Obama is a tool used to silence Democrats as the government adopts Republican policy. At least if we had a Republican doing these repugnant things, we’d have opposition. As it stands, our Constitutional rights are being systematically destroyed.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 7:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      The strange thing is how so many decontextualize why he reacted as he did. The guy was pushing Obama while telling Choi that he does not support marriage equality. What exactly was supposed to say and do “thank him for it?”

      Jun 17, 2011 at 8:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KevinC
      KevinC

      Dan Choi annoys me so much aggghhhhhh!, but Obama is still the most homophobic politician ever.The man does not even believe in marriage equality. That’s why I wanted Hillary to win./

      Jun 17, 2011 at 8:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Spike
      Spike

      Can’t wait to see Miss Choi get on the Mitt Romney’s campaign!

      We’re here, we’re queer, Obama has hurt our feelings so we are voting for the Mormon!

      LOL. Yep, typical Gay me me me me reaction. Wonder if the gay community will ever grow up or will it continue to act like a bunch of 6th grade girls.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 8:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      I also thinkt he other side of the coin for me is how many are Republican v Democrat about this. As if either party really cares about gay rights outside of electoral outcomes. There is virtually no difference between the two right wing parties in America. You are arguing over different types of shit.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 8:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • delurker
      delurker

      Why is a Republican like Choi even at NN? He’s more at home at CPAC where he was kissy-poo with the Nellys at GOProud.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 8:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MGJ
      MGJ

      Get off Obama’s ass. That is all you folks have done is bitch and complain about him. Bill Clinton did way worse in helping republicans. He helped them repeal the banking laws that gave of a new depression. Bill helped them with NAFTA too which was the serious beginning to American manufacturing jobs being shipped out of the country. OH YEAH WASN’T IT BILL WHO GAVE US DADT? And wasn’t it OBAMA who got behind its repeal? YES he did…But of course that is not enough for you folks.

      If you think republicans are going to help, then go right ahead and take your ball and go home. You are the most selfish bunch of Americans anyway. Black folks waited many, many years for issues to be addressed and they still are not fair. You guys want it all RIGHT NOW and you don’t want to wait.

      Last November lazy, vindictive “progressives” stayed home or voted republican and now we have a dysfunctional House of Representatives full of crazy tea bagging republicans and hateful conservatives. Get off your asses, quit your bitching, and get to freaking work like the rest of us who had to get our heads beat in in order to be recognized as Americans too…

      Jun 17, 2011 at 8:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • delurker
      delurker

      @KevinC: Hilldawg does not support gay marriage, fyi. :)

      Jun 17, 2011 at 8:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • I Dunno But...
      I Dunno But...

      @CJH: Correction please… Choi was FUCKING RIGHT!

      Jun 17, 2011 at 9:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      @MGJ: “Black folks waited many, many years for issues to be addressed and they still are not fair.”

      The movement for equal rights for Blacks and for Women began in the 1950’s and 60’s. And much of the legislation was passed in the 60’s and 70’s.

      The gay equality movement also began in the 60’s .. and that was 50 years ago.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 9:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      A symbolic act like ripping up a campaign poster or a photo is a lot more meaningful as part of a coherent statement. It’s a dramatic device best used to open or close a speech.

      What will be remembered of this episode is the act, not the words.

      I’m as frustrated as anyone with the pace of Obama fulfilling his campaign promises. I “get” the anger, but I hope Choi applies that same level of activism to the Republican side as well.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Geoff B
      Geoff B

      @Jeffree: I could’nt agree more.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 10:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      @Kev C

      “The movement for equal rights for Blacks and for Women began in the 1950?s and 60?s. And much of the legislation was passed in the 60?s and 70?s.”

      Are you serious. I’m sorry, that is real bullshit. The women’s suffrage movement and civil rights for blacks began in the 1800s. Haven’t you ever heard of the Seneca Falls Convention for women’s suffrage in 1848 and the establishment of the Tuskegee Institute and the NAACP pretty much over 100 years ago. Those groups took them a long time to reach equality so i appreciate it if you wouldn’t belittle them. I know yes, we are waiting a long time for our rights, at the same time you cant go say that other groups or minorities have had it easier than us, that would be just an erroneous statement.

      I’m not saying that we have to wait for 100 years to get full equality but rather I’m saying that fighting for our rights is not easy and its not something that is just a given within a short period of time. We have to be very committed and even more persistent in order to reach full equality.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 10:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      @Jason: And gay political activism can also be traced back to the 19th century and early 20th. So? It wasn’t until the 60s that these movements gained enough momemtum to make a difference.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 10:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • orpheus_lost
      orpheus_lost

      @Polyboy: Do you mean like the re-education camps Obama’s good friend Rick Warren supports? You know, the ones his other buddy, Donnie McClurkin, went through and now advocates.

      When the only thing you can offer in support of Obama is naked fear of the other side it’s obvious you have nothing at all. You go ahead and vote your fears, I’ll vote for my interests.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 10:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      We no more need to get off Obama’s back than MLK and Malcolm X got off LBJ’s back. It is called political pressure.

      I keep saying I feel like Americans really are tired of the whole democracy thing. They really want a dictator. This whole shtick with Bush, and now, Obama is based on both being somehow ordained by God to be trusted.

      Our system is not based on trusting politicians. Its based on holding them accountable. For gay rights, that means keeping Obama’s feet to the fire. Its that simple.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 10:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JumpingUpAgain
      JumpingUpAgain

      Doesn’t thtr whole Netroots Nation thing look pretty silly anyway? They act like it’s the meeting at Yalta or something.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 11:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ToyotaBedZRock
      ToyotaBedZRock

      @Nelson G:
      Quit being a little pussy

      It’s a new time and the younger among us are showing the old people it’s time to retire.

      You have all fucked up the world enough.

      Yes we are closer to equality, but there are also record numbers of LGBT youth on the street!

      Jun 17, 2011 at 11:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • delurker
      delurker

      @Kev C:” The movement for equal rights for Blacks and for Women began in the 1950?s and 60?s. And much of the legislation was passed in the 60?s and 70?s. ”

      So fucking erroneous. Pick up a history book, bub. You are waaaay off on both movements by 100+ years.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 11:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • George412
      George412

      I can’t stand Choi and speak out against him constantly, but in this case he was totally justified. I would have done the same thing.

      Jun 17, 2011 at 11:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      @delurker: Ok fine … SECOND WAVE MOVEMENTS THAT ACHIEVED POLITICAL PROGRESS!

      Jun 17, 2011 at 11:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robbie K
      Robbie K

      How butch….

      Jun 18, 2011 at 12:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • edfu
      edfu

      Choi is the only gay-rights movement activist to make any sense. He’s entirely correct, and I support him 100%. Obama is a fake, nothing more than a Republican-lite.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 12:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rick G
      Rick G

      @KevinC: ” ” Obama is still the most homophobic politician ever????????” That is the dumbest statement on this site. He ended DADT and is against DOMA He is for Civil Unions. Oh yes he IS the most homophobic politician ever. Oh and saying that you wanted Hillary to win???? She is against Gay marriage and her husband SIGNED DOMA….he could have vetoed it but he did not. Learn some FACTS before you give such a stupid statement. He is in fact the most PRO GAY PRESIDENT this country has ever had.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 1:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jordan
      Jordan

      Oh jeez. You folks are ridiculous with your mock outrage. It was a frickin’ Obama poster — as if there aren’t 1,000 waiting in a stack nearby. Get over yourselves.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 1:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Geoff B
      Geoff B

      @ronbo: Believe me, I’m no Obama fan. Thepoint I was making was Compared to Christian right loons like Michelle Bachmann and Rick Analfroth, Who are you gonna vote for? Would I like a candidate who is a true “fierce advocate” for equality? Yeah. Would I prefer a candidate who isn’t, but doesn’t wish me dead over the likes of a Palin/Bachmann ticket? Fucking A right I do.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 1:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jane
      Jane

      @Kev C: Second wave movements like ending slavery and giving women the right to vote? Is that what you’re talking about? Is this Glenn Beck?

      Jun 18, 2011 at 1:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • edfu
      edfu

      Crumbs, crumbs, that’s all that Obama offers. He lied, because he promised the whole loaf. What a bunch of pathetic sissies: Go ahead; pick up the crumbs.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 1:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jane
      Jane

      This is all ridiculous, Choi was right to be angry, he was not right to throw a temper tantrum about it. That said, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place here, you can refuse to vote for Democrats as you like, but unless you can create a grassroots campaign that will put a liberal leaning Independent into office, we are screwed. The last time people voted for an Independent in any significant numbers we ended up with George W. Bush, and what a fine kettle of fish that was. Because we only have two viable parties, we have created a government in which only a portion of us will ever be heard at a time, what’s done by the Right will be undone by the Left and we’re left with the status quo. We need to shake shit up, there should not be congresspeople who have served since before my grandmother could vote or serving until they die. Corporations should not be allowed to contribute to political campaigns. Politicians (and the news media while we’re at it) should be held to a higher standard of truth and there should be penalties for violating the public trust (90% of Planned Parenthood’s services are abortion anyone? How about our Founding Fathers fought tooth and nail against slavery. Remember that?) This country is going to hell in a handbasket and the Right is leading the charge while screaming about how the blacks and the gays and the women are to blame and we are letting them get away with it. How about instead of raging at Democrats, we rage at the people we’re supposed to be at war with? We fight amongst ourselves and nothing changes.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 1:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • edfu
      edfu

      @Jane: We fight amongst ourselves because we foolishly believed our great hero had arrived. Remember “Change you can believe in?” How’d that go? We have been betrayed by the one we thought would change all of that. Well, it turns out he lied. It’s to be expected with we are filled with rage.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 1:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • edfu
      edfu

      @edfu: Correction: It’s to be expected that we are filled with rage.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 1:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Allan
      Allan

      @KevinC: Hillary Clinton has never ever endorsed same-sex marriage. Ever. Her husband and daughter have, but she never ever has. Never. Ever.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 2:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cú Chulainn
      Cú Chulainn

      It’s general knowledge at Netroots Nation that Dan Choi and Jane Hamsher staged the whole thing.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 2:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • the crustybastard
      the crustybastard

      Jesus, the obot was promoting the legal subordination of citizens on the basis of sexual orientation. How the hell did he think that was going to go over with a leading gay rights advocate?

      If some dipshit had walked up to the panel and handed them Chick tracts and told them they were abominations destined for perdition, you’d have them “politely listen and engage with an open mind”?

      Jun 18, 2011 at 2:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      @Jane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-wave_feminism

      My mother was a lesbian feminist activist during the 70’s. The house was filled with feminist books. I think I may know more about it than you.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 2:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KevinC
      KevinC [Different person #1 using similar name]

      No, Obama is not the most pro gay president. Bill Clinton way way more pro gay than Obama. If Hillary won, we’d have marriage equality by now.She was way smarter than Obama. Obama thinks he can get through with empty pretty words and good looks alone.Sorry Mr. President, NOT.GONNA.WORK.Even Dick Cheney sopports marriage equality now.Obama is homophobic.I don’t know if it’s the black thing. My ex broke up with me because his AA family pressured him to stay in the closet.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JinPortland
      JinPortland

      @KevinC: “My ex broke up with me because his AA family pressured him to stay in the closet” Jeee KevinC, Thanks for finally allowing us to see where your racist rants come from.lol…..

      Jun 18, 2011 at 7:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      @KevinC

      Again do you not get the point. How was Bill Clinton more pro-gay than Obama? I didn’t know that signing DOMA into law and Don’t Ask Don’t Tell were very pro-gay issues? Yes, Obama could do MUCH more but backing the end of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was a remarkable stance on him. And also, I don’t find Clinton FINALLY backing marriage equality 20 years after his term rather than when he actually had power makes him very pro-gay. If anything, though I think Obama has not done a good enough job, what Obama has done on paper is much more remarkable than what Clinton had done to “help” our fight for equality.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 8:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chip
      Chip

      The most dangerous place to stand is between Dan Choi and any camera.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 8:13 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KevinC
      KevinC [Different person #2 using similar name]

      @Jason: I am so tired of people in our community defending the president. He is not the messiah you know.Bill and Hillary are more pro-gay than Obama.If Hillary was president, she could have already switched her marriage equality stance by now. How long will it take Obama to “evolve”. Everyone is so crazily in love with this man and it annoys me to no end. He does not support marriage equality. DADT has not been repealed. Dick Cheney is more pro-gay than him. Bloomberg is more pro-gay than him. I will not vote for him next year.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 8:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @delurker: The civil rights movement for african americans began in the 1910s (the one to dismantle JIm Crow). the NAACP LEgal Defense strategy, the stalled effforts in the 30s and 40s. etc

      Jun 18, 2011 at 8:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      Clinton and Obama are and were virtually the same on gay rights issue. You can read their check list of answers from 2008. Neither has significantly changed positions. Anyone saying there is a difference is delusional. By comparison, the Democrats are slightly better than the GOP. Slightly.

      The GOP is the party of action that moves the country to the right (primarily economically, but also with social policy that’s used as a control to move the economics to the right). We are, in other words, as a part of the culture wars, collateral damage for the economic right ward push of both parties. The Democrats triangulate this position. Whether its Hillary or Obama. Or Cuomo of NY who passed a regressive budget harming the middle class and poor of NY State and then pushed social issues like marriage equality to entice social liberals, without it seems a strong chance of passing.

      Anyone trying to differentiate between the two (Clinton and Obama) on policy- has no fucking idea what American politics is about and should take a remedial course in American politics. We are collateral assets for both parties to push the economics to the right.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 9:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @KevinC: Bill Clinton switched position when it no longer mattered as far as his political ambition. I believe the pol still seeking elective office- Hilary CLinton- has not. Its Bill is spouse in the relationship now rather than the pol. Hillary is the pol that matters.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 9:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @KevinC: By the way, Chenney is not more pro-gay right that Obama. When you read what Chenney actually says rather than reading headlines, and if you understand the law, you realize he’s advocating the state’s rights argument, which is popular among conservatives. He argues that the states should invidually decide , but not the federal government. In a nutshell, he’s argue for inequality where some states will discriminate and others will not.

      Here’s an old article on Chenney

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/01/cheney-offers-his-support_n_209869.html

      THis occured before Obama’s triangulating further on the issue by not defending DOMA.

      Obama advocates that we not defend DOMA, and in essense would let the courts decide, BUT, he does not say we should address state based laws. The affect is substantively is the same as Chenneys- but gets there in a different way. Clinton has not altered her position since 2008, but from that view I am certain she advocates something similar to Chenney and Obama.

      Most of this information I just provided is readily available in a quick google search.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 9:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      relevant quote regarding Chenney’s postion

      “he supports gay marriage as long as it is deemed legal by state and not federal government.”

      this is GOProuds argument too. Its standard conservative positioning to push forward state’s right, reduced federal government argument. The problem is that (a) marriage crosses state lines in terms of issues (b) there are a huge number of reasons why you want a Supreme court decision like that one that happened with interracial marriage in Loving v. Virginia. You want that because all the barriers go away at once. Without, it creates a legal nightmare for gay couples.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 9:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • I Dunno But...
      I Dunno But...

      When are these thick-heads going to get it. States’ rights are NOT where the decision has to be made. IT’s a FEDERAL issue. States have no jurisdiction over the real issues which hare FEDERAL – taxation, immigration, etc. Pushing for state-level decisions are like pissing against a high tide

      Jun 18, 2011 at 9:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tjr101
      tjr101

      @KevinC: “Obama is homophobic.I don’t know if it’s the black thing. My ex broke up with me because his AA family pressured him to stay in the closet.”

      Are you sure that’s the reason he dumbed you or is it because you’re an ignorant racist prick?

      Jun 18, 2011 at 9:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @I Dunno But…: They understand exactly what they are doing and saying.

      Chenney knows that if he argues a state’s right argument it means less regulations for big companies, which is really the focus of both him and his daughter. We are collateral to that goal. Meaning, if they can use us to advance their economic goals by saying that even this issue should be decided by the states- thats even better.

      They know the regulations, typically, at the state level will be easier on them or they can at the very least control the states better than the feds since the public looks even less at state government officials than national ones.

      Part of this comes down to the gay rights and other identity groups not understanding the point. Gay rights are collerteral. As were civil rights for blacks before it. Its something parties use to control voters to vote against interest or to suggest here that a crazy pol like Chenney is not quite so crazy although in actuality he’s just advocating something that reinforces his real agenda- to push the economic policy forward. He could care less abut gay rights one way or the other.

      This is true of both parties.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 9:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @KevinC: How did we go from a legit discussion of Obama’s failings on gay rights to your ex?

      Jun 18, 2011 at 9:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • I Dunno But...
      I Dunno But...

      @Interesting: I agree with your classification as collateral and being used as a vote-getting issue. That DOES NOT make it right or just, and I for one am sick of it.. FUCKING SICK OF IT. Issues based in religious beliefs have no place in government or politics… Everyone of the people in goverment today, regardless of what great ideas they claim to have, sells out to the shadow government of the New World Order once they get elected. Church, taxation, and oppression were some of the many reasons my family left the ‘old country’ 4 hundred years ago. If there were a place to go, I’d be gone today

      Jun 18, 2011 at 10:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • FunMe
      FunMe

      That OFA “kid” was a freaking plant. Who the hell claims he is a GLBT person and then gives cover to Obama for not giving us marriage equality?

      A real GLBT person would not be putting down someone who is fighting for equality for all of us I think of lot of these COCKROACHES are from OFA, the DNC, HRC and other SELL OUTS who could care less about any GLBT person. What do I say to these people who criticize Dan Choi who we know are not really gay or BLT? Thanks for the LOLs you FREAKS!

      Anytime you see anyone complaining a lot about Dan Choi more often than not it is because they are scared of Dan. Thanks goodness we have a true American hero who is out there fighting for our rights.

      And shame on your “queer”ty for falling for the trap!

      Jun 18, 2011 at 10:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeff Wilfahrt
      Jeff Wilfahrt

      I’d like to throw my hetero two cents into this blog. As the father of a now dead gay soldier, CPL Andrew Wilfahrt, I’m going to back up Lt. Choi.
      Hemingway famously stated something to the effect that there is a distinction between action and motion. Lt. Choi chose action. I think it the right choice.
      In military parlance Lt. Choi is on point in this battle. I know from my struggles here at the Capitol and on camera with Maddow that being on point is a lonely place. You are never quite sure the rest are keeping up and backing you up. Tensions run high when you’re on point. You end up being the primary target.
      So I suggest that unless you are willing to get out front and take over Dan Choi’s position that you cut him some slack and understand the pressure he carries out there as front man. He is the primary target, he shouldn’t be worried about sniping from the back.
      Blogging here is motion, not action.
      Six kilometers west of Kandahar is a Combat Out Post now designated COP WILFAHRT. Imagine that, a combat outpost named for a gay dead Military Policeman.
      My advice, which you are free to reject, is take some action instead of just motion.
      Respectfully,
      Jeff Wilfahrt, father of CPL Andrew Wilfahrt,552nd MP Company, KIA, 2-27-2011, Kandahar, Afghanistan

      Jun 18, 2011 at 10:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      Meh, as much disdain as I have for Choi, and as much of a fame- whoring drama queen I think he is, he was perfectly justified in his actions here. I cannot, for any reason, justify any member of the queer community, nor any ally, not standing up for marriage equality. EVER. And yes, I might be a bleeding heart liberal, and yes, I will vote for Obama, but that is only because I am picking the lesser of the evils. Better him than Michele Bachmann or Rick Santorum or any of the others who truly HATE us.

      Though, to whoever said the most dangerous place to stand is between Dan Choi and any camera..SO RIGHT. The man is mentally ill, and a fame whore.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 10:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dan4
      dan4

      Don’t mind me: I just love watching the Democratic infighting.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 10:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Spike
      Spike

      @Chip: HA HA HA, so true, would love to see Miss Choi and Gloria Allred being interviewed together! Talk about a bitch fight for who gets the most camera time. BTW, do we know if Miss Choi isn’t realy Margaret Choi in drag?????

      Jun 18, 2011 at 10:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KevinC
      KevinC [Different person #3 using similar name]

      @tjr101: LOL! I am a racist prick? I was in a relationship with a beautiful AA man for 3 YEARS! He chickened out because his family shunned him for being gay.They were homophobic and they ruined my life and his life.Even he agreed that his community is homophobic.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 10:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @dan4: We’d mind you *less* if you actually added to the conversation. Other than the lulz, you add nada.

      Don’t forget, we still need an intelligent Conservative to participate in this blog. If you meet one, please send them along.

      Thank you and have a blessed, Jesus-filled weekend.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 10:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @Shannon1981: Agreed about getting between the camera & Dan—that’s a no-fly /walk/ run zone for sure!

      But, really, his mental health issues aren’t really fair or relevant to bring up. That’s between him & his doc. Too many activists get called “crazy” as it is.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 10:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @Jeffree: You’re right. That was a low blow. I admit to not liking the guy, but in all seriousness….I applaud and agree with what he did.

      For the record, local GOPers called me “a militant, angry, homosexual activist with an axe (or three) to grind.”

      I wear it like a badge of honor! It means someone actually listens to lil ole me!

      Jun 18, 2011 at 11:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • delurker
      delurker

      @Jeffree: “intelligent: conservative? i’d like to see a unicorn lol that’ll be the day.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 11:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @delurker: @Jeffree: What I find most pathetic is that they have nothing better to do than hang out on sites of people they hate and troll. To be so consumed with hate that they seek out those they dislike is truly sad.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 11:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @Shannon1981:
      I’ve been called something similar to what you’ve been labled….Because of the source of the comment, I considered it to mean that I had “arrived”. Maybe I’ll put the words on a teeshirt someday: “p*rve*ted advocate for homo adoption”!

      @delurker: “Intelligence” is a relative term, eh what? It’s hard to debate the dull, squeaky chewtoy that is dan4!

      Jun 18, 2011 at 11:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @Jeffree: I was rather alarmed at first. This place is full of rednecks, and all I did was express concern with the number of folks who valued Fox News’ views over CNN,etc. Next thing ya know, their little leaflet(there are lots of those floating around here right now, with the DNC’s impending arrival in Charlotte) there is MY PHOTO, with some rather nasty commentary.

      But yeah, they think I’m nuts. But, whatever.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 11:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @Shannon1981: I’ve noticed that the word “militant” seems to get hurled at women more often than men, at least from what I’ve heard. Assumption being that women are supposed to be demure & soft-spoken?

      Oh, & the leaflets? Almost always unintelligible & anonymous. How cowardly is that?

      Jun 18, 2011 at 11:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @Jeffree: Yeah, I looked online, and NOTHING. They were on the leaflet stand outside the local GOP center (run by old redneck volunteers) with of course- no author. Simply “the Rock Hill GOP.” Whatever.

      I blogged it here. http://soyouwanttobealesbian.blogspot.com/2011/06/yup-im-high-riding-bitch.html

      Jun 18, 2011 at 11:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      And me? Demure and soft spoken? LOL That’ll be the day.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 11:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nelson G
      Nelson G

      @ToyotaBedZRock: Don’t blame for the failure of the gay rights movement. I wasn’t the one ought there fucking and sucking my way into an epidemic, inviting special interest groups, and the jesus freaks. By the time I realized what was going on, it was too late for me to do something. Now I am, by calling out the leadership.

      This week, two major equality advocates revealed themselves to be posers. Several other activists with blogs and provide online content have admitted they don’t haven’t verified their contributors and writers, while still another had admitted our orgs aren’t at all about equality, but fundraising. And Choi is a poser, period.

      Go attack them, not me.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 12:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @ShannonDemure1981: When you leave town, I bet those rednecks will tell everyone that they “ran you out” –i’ve seen that happen more than once!

      I have to scoot on down the road but will check your link later!

      Jun 18, 2011 at 12:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @Jeffree: Probably they will say that, but anyone who knows me will know that its a big fat lie LOL. I do nothing I don’t wanna do haha. Well, unless you count living here right now, but the ends definitely justify the means.

      Have fun! Feel free to comment. Posting a new entry as we speak!

      Jun 18, 2011 at 12:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AhHaHa
      AhHaHa

      I wouldn’t doubt the incident was staged. Now if only pam spaulding can stage someone throwing another hamburger into her mouth.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 2:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @I Dunno But…: I agree that it is wrong. I just get tired of people not being able to grasp what it happening when they try to say this or that pol or this that party is better on gay rights when it comes to the two major parties. It simply not dealing in reality to say that either cares or that any major presidential leader in either party really cares. They don’t. We are vote getters for either side. This is true on every social issue you can think of. The real battle ground is economics, and ont hat front, both parties are to the far right by any historic and ideological measure.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 2:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @KevinC: The question is why are your relationships relevant to the conversation?

      Jun 18, 2011 at 2:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @AhHaHa: This whole “it was staged” argument just the worse kind of Obot pathetic narratives. Here’s the deal- denial of a situation to make yourself feel betters may work for a while,but it ends up in bad policies. I thought sort of thinking was unique to Bush, but I guess not. THe Bush supports , for example, with Iraq would say that the press is just not reporting the good news. As if there saying that meant that Iraq was a good thing or that the criticism, in other words, was invalid. That’s what you just did. This is a staged event because why? Because you say it is. So, that ends the concern over Obots supporting everything the president does. No, not really. There are just too many examples of the extremist support to do that at this point.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 3:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AhHaHa
      AhHaHa

      Interesting : No, dude, I’m really critical of Obama on gay issues (though what you’re saying is probably relevant to some people). I’m just also saying there’s something hammy about this whole thing and I think it was staged. But I’m not taking any pro-Obama/anti-Obama stance with believing that.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 4:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AhHaHa
      AhHaHa

      And even if I think it was staged doesn’t mean I disagree with Choi in general. (( But I do think ths stupid Netroots thing is an unecessary mutal kiss-ass fest.))

      Jun 18, 2011 at 4:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @AhHaHa: Sorry to have misjudged. Next time I will ask your view rather than assuming. That was not right for me to do that.

      I agree that the Netroots is bullshit. I believe in progressive thinking, but I find the so-called Internet leaders of those thinking to be more concerned with as you said kissing-ass.

      I am just leery of taking any position without anything more than a gut. Even when I think its true on a gut level, I will normally preference it or afterwards state its just my gut opinion. But, that’s my personal view. It doesn’t have to be others.

      As for Choi, I don’t understand the hostility toward him. He’s saying things that are absolutely true. There’s a need to put pressure on DC. There’s a need for diversity in the gay rights movement.

      People say he’s conservative, but I have yet to hear him talk on anything other than gay rights. The claim seems to come out of his relationship with conservatives. Does that mean he’s conservative because he talks to them?

      The other is that they seem to argue he’s conservative because he does not criticize the right as much as the Democrats (which are not left or progressive but are supposed to be). I just thought comes from the same place that I do. That they are the ones making us these promises. Not the GOP. The GOP are ones we aren’t suppose to expect anything from. So, the best we can hope for is to reach out to them. That does not mean we left the GOP off the hook. We keep pressuring them as the bigots theya re. But the idea that we can be promised something and then have them throw us under the bus as the Dems do is something that I can see pissing me off. In fact, that’s what Choi says. He says he believed Obama in 2008. I sense he’s angry in part as someone who trusted Obama to do what he said he would do.

      I am in that category. I knew the president was a centrist, but I thought he had some core principles. I question that now. I think he has none. I think he’s just another right winger liek Bill Clinton was and the many others in the Democratic Party who have sold us out whether on gay rights or any number of economic issues.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 4:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dan4
      dan4

      Jeffree: If yours is the kind of intelligent debate you’re looking for, I’ll pass. Keep hatin’. Meanwhile, our president has the same position as the GOP candidates.

      Suck on that for a bit.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 4:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dan4
      dan4

      If C-SPAN replays it, you all have to watch the White House Communications Director get ABSOLULTELY ROASTED on this issue and more at last night’s Netroots session. That gal from DailyKos let him have it. Unlike many of the people here, she strayed FAR off the plantation. Many of you would undoubtedly call her a “troll” for daring to criticize the president…..

      (What IS it, by the way, about liberals – of every orientation – always using the word “troll?” There HAS to be something to that.)

      Jun 18, 2011 at 4:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @dan4: Can you provide a link? I would like to hear it.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Lynde
      Paul Lynde

      Dan Choi was very victorious over Tschida. But this a pyrrhic victory at the cost of losing his dignity. I would expect a West Point graduate like Choi to be of sturdy stuff, and not allow someone like Tshida to goad him into coming off like a flaming Mary.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dan4
      dan4

      I’m happy to oblige. It’s good stuff. I have no idea why this White House insists on having complete idiots in this position. (Okay, that’s not true. I do know why.) First Anita Dunn, and now this fool.

      http://www.c-span.org/Events/Netroots-Nation-Interview-with-White-House-Communications-Director-Dan-Pfeiffer/10737422355/

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Lynde
      Paul Lynde

      @Nelson: Choi was right, how he went about being right was totally wrong.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @dan4: @dan4: I have been asking why they suffer idiots since the appointment of Timmy “I was an idiot at the NY Fed and couldn’t do my own taxes” Geithner. But then i realize they are useful idiots for the a centrist like the President.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Paul Lynde: If you think is something “dignified” about being a second class citizen in your own country, you really aren’t suffering anything.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Lynde
      Paul Lynde

      @interesting: and coming off like a flaming Mary will advance the gay cause how? I’m all ears.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dan4
      dan4

      Careful, @Interesting: You’re going to be called a “troll” by Jeffree and his “civilized” friends for daring to think independently.

      Then again, I’m not so sure they want civilized and intelligent debate here. They’ve proven that for years. What they want is for independents, moderates, and conservatives (really, anyone who isn’t a far-left hateful progressive/liberal) to just shut up. They didn’t get the memo that we don’t need their permission or acceptance, and that the rules HAVE CHANGED. Permanently.

      Enjoy the link.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dan4
      dan4

      “flaming Mary” and “Paul Lynde.” Those are sets of words I’d ever expect to read together….

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Lynde
      Paul Lynde

      @lb: so you think that non-human animals are getting more protection than gays? As someone like myself who supports Chimpanzee sanctuaries, I have a few things for you. Non-human animals like chimpanzees cannot speak out on their own behalf. You as a human can. You and Dan Choi have the privilege of advocating for your causes. Chimpanzees and other animals don’t. They have to depend on the tender mercies of your distant human cousins like Michael Vick. Chimpanzees get shot up into space and are forced to endure decades in a lab, while human astronauts (gay or otherwise) got a hero’s welcome. Yes, it sucks for gays, but please don’t put gay sufferings on the backs of creatures who unlike humans cannot speak out on their own behalf.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Lynde
      Paul Lynde

      @104: you got me there!

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @dan4: I am on the far left. They don’t want the far left either. They want centrism and middle class civility. Neither of which are principles. They are just tactics, which is what they are really saying. I mentioned this the other day regarding someone saying that it was inappropriate by some racist to use darky and cracker not because it was racism but because of how it looked.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      @Paul Lynde: “Non-human animals like chimpanzees cannot speak out on their own behalf.”

      Tell that to lady who was mauled by a chimp who removed her face.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 5:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dan4
      dan4

      @Paul: It was truly meant in good fun. I’m a huge fan of the man in the Center Square.

      @Interesting: You’re right. Many of those on this board who smugly and ridiculously ask for “civility” and “intelligent” debate from people like me just bought in to the cult of personality that IS Barack Obama. They are simply employing thug tactics to shut down ALL opposing information. @Jeffree and people LIKE HIM aren’t interested in civility. They’re interested in GROUPTHINK. As I said above: I’ll pass.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 6:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @dan4: I think you’re confusing me with some Obamabot. You’ll note that I have been critical of him in many posts.

      As for the word “troll” you’ve used it more on this thread than anyone else. Stoli, meet Ketel.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Lynde
      Paul Lynde

      @Kev C: good point. But I’m still with the chimp in that tragedy. That lady who got mauled has a chance at life. Travis the Chimp, who should have never been a pet in the first place (stupid humans who think primates make good pets), lost his life. And I aam going to drive another point home: chimps that are brought into the US were babies that had their mothers shot out from under them. Not to mention that the stupid lady who had the Travis (not talking about her friend that got mauled).

      And to all the gays flaming on me, I have nothing to prove to you. Where were your brave gay rights organizations when I was being called “faggot” and being ostracized. I fought my own battles as a human, screw all of your orginizations..

      BTW not all gays are my friends: J Edgar Hoover and Joe McCarthy were not my friends. Gays who support endless wars are not my friends. Is Dan Choi demanding that he as a gay man has the right to go and maim Afghanis for US Empire? Gays who support the war on drugs are not my friends. Gays who sat out the election or helped Republicans win in 2010 are not my friends. Gays who take the support of others as a sign of weakness rather than a sign of good will or most definately not my frends The so called gay community is not a community nor is it united. Sorry.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 6:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @dan4 I’ve no idea of the reason for your presence here. It seems to be, well, to troll. Pun definitely intended.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 6:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Lynde
      Paul Lynde

      @Paul Lynde: errata: And I aam s/b And I am

      Incorrect sentence: Not to mention that the stupid lady who had the Travis (not talking about her friend that got mauled).

      Sentence should have read: Not to mention that the stupid lady who had Travis the chimp (not talking about her friend who got mauled) was offered a sanctuary for the chimp and she refused.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 6:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Paul Lynde
      Paul Lynde

      @dan4: I loved Uncle Arthur.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 6:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeffree
      Jeffree

      @Paul Lynde: was it a just bad joke in the Twittersphere, or is it true that the lady who got mauled is now going to get a f’ing face transplant? (and yes, I know I’m off topic!)

      Jun 18, 2011 at 6:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @dan4: I am not convinced it will pass. We have seen two Presidencies (and if you count Clinton and Reagan as the start of this fall of reasoning, then four) with this sort of mindless polite groupthink. I think this is something that is perhaps intrinsic to the American psyche regardless of ideological bent. I hope I am wrong, but the more I read from people across the spectrum in terms of their anti-reason based group thinking processes (of which there are several examples here that routinely say their experience trumps data), I am not sure things will change. The fact is I was taught by the right, but am a leftist out of experience and analysis rather than regurgitating what I am told. That’s not the norm on either the putative left or right in this country. The fact is LBJ and NIxon were far more reason oriented than anything that have followed them. THey were deeply, deeply flawed. But thinkers. The exception may be someone like Glenn Greenwald with some kind of following online, but he’s more of a person who proves the rule sort. He’s not a pol and he’s not even allowed to be as strong as I think he could be in saying a pox on both the parties.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 7:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @Paul Lynde: (a) I like Paul Lynde so I am not flaming on your screen name. Its cool. (b) I don’t disagree about DADT, but its complicated. There is an equality component that I agree with even as I disagree with the whole “empire” thing of multiple wars. What are we in now? something like 5? notice that one can not separate however Obama’s views on the subject from Bush. My protesting Obama is not a defense of Bush. Its a protestation of the fact he’s following Bush.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 7:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dan4
      dan4

      @Shannon: You seem to have missed that I (or ANYONE else who doesn’t agree with YOU) don’t need your permission or acceptance to post here. Suck it!

      @Jeffree: I truly enjoy your brand of intelligent and civil debate. You’re a HOOT!

      Jun 18, 2011 at 7:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      @dan4: Where did I say you needed my permission or acceptance? I didn’t. Do not put words in my mouth, please. Furthermore, you won’t get it, and that should be abundantly clear. At any rate, what I said was merely an observation.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 7:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Interesting
      Interesting

      @dan4: Don’t waste your time with Shannon. She inevitably falls back on “I believe therefore its okay.” Since it s her “observations” she does haven’t bother with actually being right.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 7:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dan4
      dan4

      @Interesting: You’re right a LOT. I clearly misinterpreted her “civil” comment above stating that she didn’t know why I was posting her as a BIG FUCKING “WELCOME!” :)
      Those gate-keepers and their ever-changing and (like, Obama, “evolving”) rules for debate….

      Jun 18, 2011 at 8:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      @Paul Lynde: -“Gays who support endless wars are not my friends.”

      I don’t know many gays who support endless wars. I do know President Obama supports endless wars.

      -“Gays who support the war on drugs are not my friends.”

      Drugs are your friends?

      -“Gays who sat out the election or helped Republicans win in 2010 are not my friends.”

      You should never put political power above human rights. Empowering Democrats is not the same as empowering LGBTs. If it were so, gays would have had equality 40 years ago.

      -“Gays who take the support of others as a sign of weakness rather than a sign of good will or most definately not my frends”

      This sounds like a reluctant heterosexual ally thing to say.

      Jun 18, 2011 at 9:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Roman
      Roman

      Choi is right. Querty is wrong to suggest that continuing to have polite discussions and asking for our rights decade after decade after decade after decade has been an effective strategy. Allowing millions of Gay Americans and their families to be harmed and treated unequally their entire lives so as not to upset the oppressors and the ignorant is the definition of failed leadership.

      Jun 19, 2011 at 8:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MSquare
      MSquare

      What is wrong with QUEERTY to attack DAN CHOI?

      Is DAN CHOI the person we should go after with everything he has done to get so much attention to gay rights issues? He put so much energy, passion, bravery and unselfishness where his mouth is. Who else can say that, even if DAN isn’t 100% right 100% of times.

      What has QUEERTY done for gay rights? Tagging issues as LOL, WTF, HOT, MORE PLEASE? That’s all you got?

      With everything DAN has done he deserves a lot of out support. He can come sell avon to me and he would still have my full attention. He deserves a lot of our respect for everything he’s done.

      Jun 19, 2011 at 9:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tommy
      Tommy

      @George412: I second that. When someone comes up to your face, hands you a poster of the president, and announces that they’re opposed to your full equality, its completely disrespectful. Choi is a dramatic douche, but his actions were justified in this instance.

      Jun 19, 2011 at 4:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dave
      Dave

      Obama is tactless. If he knew what was good for him, he would join the majority of Americans in supporting marriage equality.

      So what if Choi tore up some paper? I really hope that doesn’t make you pansies cry too hard tonight. If he had engaged in polite mealy mouthed discussion, *you never would have heard about it* But check it out! Now we’re having a discussion. Now people are realizing none of us really buys Obama’s BS.

      Jun 19, 2011 at 5:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Zach
      Zach

      Choi was right and Obama won’t be getting my vote either. you’re either with us or against us. stand up for us or shut the f*** up and get out of the way and let someone else lead.

      Jun 20, 2011 at 1:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ronbo
      ronbo

      @Geoff B: Jeff, so you choose to side with someone who does not respect you enough to provide equality. Do you feel that you are worth less?

      I suggest you side with someone who respects you. If you vote for and get someone who disrespects you, what have you won? You have cheered and invested in self-hate.

      It is not a choice of either / or. Find someone whom you can support; not, resign to accept someone who disrespects you. It is better to lose doing the right thing, than to win and lose self-respect.

      Jun 20, 2011 at 9:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • lb
      lb

      @Paul Lynde: At what point did I suggest I didn’t believe in animal rights? Only that a significant number of people who voted for animal right, didn’t think gay people deserved to be equal. By the way, I voted in that election, including a yes vote for prop 2. I’m not your enemy.

      Jun 20, 2011 at 11:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon
      Shannon

      @ronbo: well said…

      Jun 20, 2011 at 12:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rick G
      Rick G

      @KevinC: Bill Clinton SIGNED the Defense of Marriage Act……He did not VETO it and he also signed DADT!!!!! Where KevinC do you get your information???? FOX NEWS??? President Obama is by far the most Pro Gay President this country has ever had. Please Inform yourself….unless you are just a republican trying to muddy the waters with BS.

      Jun 20, 2011 at 7:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CourtC
      CourtC

      Why haven’t I seen Dan Choi raising hell in front of Congress (where laws are created and repealed before they’re sent to the White House for signature)? Where are the loud protests against social conservatives and at GOP debates (the real barriers to our rights)? I’ve seen Dan Choi interviewed several times. Each time he’s been very passionate (not a bad thing). He’s also been extremely ignorant about the process (not a good thing if you’re really working to get things changed and not just looking for attention).

      I’m not saying we shouldn’t be angry. I’m saying we should be informed on process and we should be pointing our anger and political pressure in the correct direction. Dan Choi = Intellectual laziness, political ignorance, and drama over substance. Being loud is great! Being loud, ignorant, and ill-informed is Palin.

      BTW, does anyone here believe that a McCain/Palin White House would have signed a DADT repeal, the Shepard law, or refused to defend DOMA? Have we heard anything from GOP congressional leaders or GOP presidential candidates that would lead you to believe that they’re going to be faster at getting our concerns addressed?

      Perspective for those with short/mid-term memory loss and throwing rocks at your own front door: DADT was signed into law by a Democrat (Pres. Clinton). Pre-Obama the law was in place for 15 years, survived congresses led by Republicans and Democrats, and survived through a 2nd Clinton term and 2 Bush terms. Pres. Obama signed the repeal of DADT less than 2 years after his inauguration. There are a lot of reasons to be disillusioned, angry, and/or annoyed (at many political leaders of both parties). But, let’s not act like Pres. Obama is some raving anti-gay president acting against us as we give the GOP leaders and congress men/women a pass during their debates, campaigns, and town-hall meetings.

      Read more: http://www.towleroad.com/2011/06/choipanel.html#ixzz1QEoMtBVr

      Jun 24, 2011 at 7:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KDavis
      KDavis

      @KevinC: Hillary Clinton has the same stance on gay marriage as Obama does. She supported civil unions only.

      Jul 29, 2011 at 3:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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