I am not biphobic or transphobic. One my best friends is trans. People accuse me of being biphobic when all I am doing is articulating that a lot of bisexuality has certain issues and problems. Many people did identify as bisexual when they were coming out and it was a lie. That is just true. It is not crazy when you meet a bi person to wonder if they are really bi. It isn’t disrespectful. It is rational. Many bi people end up in an opposite-sex relationship so they are not in the same boat with us as gays and lesbians. … I joke about trans stuff. We are not allowed to say tranny anymore. There’s the T word and the F word, there is every letter of the alphabet word. … I still use the word “faggot” all the time in my column. Every time that I am on chat shows on cable I make a point of using fag in reference to myself because I don’t think it is a dirty word. I don’t think we should be stupid about it.
—Dan Savage, rebuffing attempts to label him transphobic [via; photo via]
Chris Robin
I’m so confused by this headline.
xerxes
Sorry, Dan. “Fag” and “Faggot” are not usually hurled at us as compliments.
Qjersey
The F word and T word are like the N word. Among some folks, they throw it around amongst themselves, but don’t YOU ever say it to them in hostility. Then we have the queer morality police and trans morality police. I think it’s very telling that the trans folks who bitching about the T word are mostly white and older and clearly do not represent the diversity of the trans community in terms of race, ethnicity or experience.
DJ Robbie Martin
ugh would this tool just disappear along with perez. they are of the same caliber.
Aaron in Honolulu
@DJ Robbie Martin:
Um, you are putting Dan Savage in the same category as Perez Hilton? One has brains and wit while the other one’s head is filled with cum and glitter.
Miss Understood
Tranny is not like “the N word”. It’s roots are not as a slur. Until CHristian Siriano most people weren’t even familiar with that word. Everyone I’ve heard say tranny thoughout the 90’s either was a tranny or hung with trannies. The politics of nitpicking over words is silly and misdirected.
NY Area Bi Network
What a bitter biphobic, racist, transphobic, sexist jerk. Dan Savage is one of a very small group of LGBT people who (still) makes a living off of str8 people by playing an offensive caricature of the old self-hating snap-queen stereotype from back in the day. I mean get over it Dan the “The Boys in the Band” came out in 1968. Get off the stage, your time is over.
Missanthrope
Dan has alway been biphobic and transphobic, now he’s just doubling down on his outdated, ancient attitudes.
Newsflash, if a trans or bi person tells you that something you say is hurtful and bi/transphobic, then it’s hurtful and bi/transphobic, period. Nobody has the right to tell us what offends us and what doesn’t anymore than we have the right to tell G and L people what’s offensive to them. It’s really just that simple, what’s so hard to get?
Signed,
A bi and trans person.
Jaroslaw
I’m confused by these comments. I read Dan’s column all the time, he is no way no how Perez Hilton. While I agree “Fag” is not used often as a compliment, I can see how Gays using it themselves could rob it of its demeaning power.
Now there have been many posts about Bi’s on this Blog and no one disputes Bi’s exist (NY Area Bi-Network). But Dan is correct, many people thought or said they were Bi to avoid the Gay label. How does that make him racist or sexist? Again, I read his column almost every week and I don’t see that in there.
And Misanthrope – if you can’t define what offends you, sorry I have a newsflash for you: what is offensive must be understandable to the majority of people otherwise people could never communicate. You may be offended and I’m sorry, but if it is some off the wall thing than only offends you, how am I to know that?
Cam
No. 8 · Missanthrope
Dan has alway been biphobic and transphobic, now he’s just doubling down on his outdated, ancient attitudes.
Newsflash, if a trans or bi person tells you that something you say is hurtful and bi/transphobic, then it’s hurtful and bi/transphobic, period.
_____________________________
Actually that isn’t the case. It has long been established, for example in court when somebody is suing for sexual harrassment, that what THEY find offensive isn’t the issue, but rather what a “Reasonable Person” would find offensive. If somebody in the office finds the phrase “Good Morning” offensive, they have to suck it up and deal.
gert
@Qjersey: I hear tranny used all the time by trannies and tranny lovers….It was invented by them….I had no idea it had become verboten. Has it really?
jimmy
I’m so sick and tired of this “One my best friends” rhetoric.
Missanthrope
@ Jaro:
“Now there have been many posts about Bi’s on this Blog and no one disputes Bi’s exist (NY Area Bi-Network). But Dan is correct, many people thought or said they were Bi to avoid the Gay label. How does that make him racist or sexist?”
IDK about the racist/sexist stuff, but bi people identities are continiously questioned where gay and straight people’s are not. You could say the same thing that someone gay or straight might not be gay or straight tomarrow (we’ve all known people who have come out as something else), that’s happened before. But Dan singles out bisexual people and presents it as a “transitional” state between gay or straight continuously when a gay or straight person is just as likely to “switch” orientation.
Why doesn’t he question monosexual identities like that? It seems he views us bi’s differently, as our identities are not as stable and legitmate as gay or straight.
“if you can’t define what offends you, sorry I have a newsflash for you: what is offensive must be understandable to the majority of people otherwise people could never communicate. You may be offended and I’m sorry, but if it is some off the wall thing than only offends you, how am I to know that?”
Tranny in my mind brings up sensationalistic tabloid headlines, trashy “she-male” porn titles, and stereotypes of “hot tranny messes” (ie. men in dresses) that don’t represent me, my trans brothers and sister or the reality of trans people. It’s a term that I most often hear linked too
“Look at that nasty/sick/trashy/trany”
“You’re really a man, tranny”
Or for the trifecta “I’m gonna fuck you up tranny”
There are some trans people who embrace (just like there are gays who embrace F%^got or Black people who embrace the “N-word” but in my experience most trans people I know hate the word and have had bad experiences with it.
I could explain until I’m blue in the face about how offensive it is. But what it comes down to is you taking my word for it and honoring my viewpoint that as a trans person I find it offensive and deorgetory. There’s no objective truth that makes “fA%^got offensive either, it just is to many people.
Cam:
“It has long been established, for example in court when somebody is suing for sexual harrassment, that what THEY find offensive isn’t the issue, but rather what a “Reasonable Person” would find offensive. If somebody in the office finds the phrase “Good Morning” offensive, they have to suck it up and deal.”
Cam, this isn’t about sexual harrassment and this isn’t a court of law. It’s about about words that hurt people and stigmatizes them. I’m saying that this word hurts me and stigmatizes me. I hope you have enough empathy to appreciate that.
Shawn
@xerxes: I completely agree!
Ogre Magi
@Aaron in Honolulu: I thought it was Hilton’s ass that was full of cum and glitter
gladimnotdan
And most people who later come out as gay originally identify as heterosexual. So therefore from his highly specious arguments I’d guess Dan thinks most straight people are just in the closet too? What a tool and an embarrassment to the community. Aren’t his 15 minutes of fame over yet?
Bill Perdue
I try to use “tranny” as often as possible, and I do this precisely because it annoys tranny activists. Tranny activists are a bunch of thugs and hoodlums with little regard for civil discourse and little respect for others. Their main concern is maintaining control over the fake “LGBT” community that they have forced on us. The best way for them to maintain that control is to be in a constant state of hurt and offense. If everything offends them, there will always be a need for the rest of the “community” to placate them.
Bill Perdue
To “Dyssonance” above:
“Newsflash, if a trans or bi person tells you that something you say is hurtful and bi/transphobic, then it’s hurtful and bi/transphobic, period.”
No, it’s not.
“Nobody has the right to tell us what offends us and what doesn’t anymore than we have the right to tell G and L people what’s offensive to them.”
Yes we all have that right. Then there is a discussion. That is the way free adults engage one another. We don’t take orders from you and your gang.
And BTW, if trannies have no right to tell G and L people what is offensive to them, then please immediately stop using the term “cis” and “LGBT”. The former term was created by trannies to describe the 99.9% of normal people who don’t identify as tranny, and that term is used without their consent. The latter term is a fiction perpetrated by trannies in order to leverage control over gay people, their organizations, and their money.
Missanthrope
“normal people who don’t identify as tranny”
I’m as “normal” as you are Bill. Glad to see that you’re keeping fresh with your transphobia and anti-trans screeds.
“The latter term is a fiction perpetrated by trannies in order to leverage control over gay people, their organizations, and their money.”
Yup, it’s the oh so powerful Trans Mafia, that’s why we’ve got ENDA (and kept gays out of ENDA), took over the HRC, having Barney Frank’s and we control all gay media.
Oh wait. They were going to exclude us from ENDA, the HRC barely addresses our issues, Barney Frank hates our guts and in a lot of LGBT media ignores our existence or treats us as “super dragqueens” or “super butch lesbians”.
Please try and create some more entertaining delusions. Your old ones are getting boring Bill. Maybe you should try 9/11 truth, JFK or illuminati conspiracy theories. They sound less crazy and paranoid and might get you more of the attention that you seem to so desperately need.
StillBisexual
MOST people who identify as Bisexual do so because they ARE Bisexual.
Unfortunately after a while MANY people who ARE Bisexual give up and grudgingly identify as Lesbian, Gay or whatever because they get so tired of the endless whining of the PC Identity-police in the LGBT community. SOME people say they are Bisexual when they are first coming out because they are genuinely confused by the entire experience. A FEW people say they are Bisexual when they are first coming out because they are nervous and think it “sounds better”.
However ALL people who have an ounce of sense pause to wonder who died and appointed Dan Savage as chief arbitrator of THEIR gender and sexual identity.
jason
What Dan Savage seems to forget is that there are also self-described gay men who are actually bisexual but don’t want to admit it. There are also self-described straight men who are bisexual but don’t want to admit it. It cuts both ways, and not just in the way Dan suggested.
In fact, I would say that that there is a greater social stigma attached to a man declaring himself bisexual than gay.
VeryBisexual
Using your logic coupled with my own experience I shouldn’t trust people when they tell me they are gay or lesbian. Why? Because I have met MANY people who identified as gay or lesbian for periods of their lives and then realized they were bisexual. So what? Sexuality is a continuum and human experience doesn’t all fit into little boxes for your pleasure.
I simply don’t understand why you spend so much time doubting a whole sexual orientation. Let it be, you savage beast.
BeckyJuro
I find Savage, shall we say, less than credible…far less. This is a guy who told Keith Olbermann on his show last week that the last two issues on the LGBT agenda are DADT and DOMA. Is anyone really still taking this guy seriously?
jason
Dan is letting his pro-gay political correctness get in the way of properly evaluating bisexuality.
My view is that we need to distinguish between male bisexuality and female bisexuality. That’s because male sexuality is fundamentally different from female sexuality.
Female bisexuals often end up with men because their bisexuality is often an accommodation of the sleazy straight guy fantasy for girl-girl action. Female sexuality in general is an attempt to align with what the buyer (ie heterosexual male) wants. There is often a financial reward for her.
Male bisexuals, on the other hand, have to fend off the greater stigma attached to the guy-guy interaction. There is no compelling imperative to align with a woman’s viewpoint because women, in general, are sellers, not buyers. There is no financial reward for him.
Overall, male bisexuality is a far more honest paradigm than female bisexuality.
StillBisexual
“Female bisexuals often end up with men because their bisexuality is often an accommodation of the sleazy straight guy fantasy for girl-girl action. Female sexuality in general is an attempt to align with what the buyer (ie heterosexual male) wants. There is often a financial reward for her.”
Oh look, yet another man explaining to women how they think, feel and act! How perfectly delightful of him.
jason
Still Bisexual,
I don’t really care what you say. I’m an independent thinker. Unlike many, I don’t seek to accommodate political correctness.
You only have to look at the mainstream women’s magazines to see how women encourage other women to accommodate male heterosexual fantasy. From make-up to skimpy clothing, it’s all there. In contrast, the mainstream men’s magazines encourage men to “be heterosexual”.
Therefore, women are encouraged to accommodate and align, men are encouraged to assert.
Bisexuality has a similar pardigm. Women use their so-called bisexuality to market themselves to men. Men, on the other hand, don’t use their own bisexuality to market themselves to women.
NY Area Bi Network
@Missanthrope:
Was referring to Savage’s opinions as expressed in his body of work not just this one, for example he was one of the first people to loudly jump on the “lets all blame the black-folks” bandwagon regarding California’s Prop-8.
Bill Perdue
@Missanthrope:
“I’m as “normal” as you are Bill”
You’re as normal as Buffalo Bill, that’s for sure.
“Yup, it’s the oh so powerful Trans Mafia, that’s why we’ve got ENDA (and kept gays out of ENDA), took over the HRC, having Barney Frank’s and we control all gay media.”
Deliberately trying to misunderstand the point? No, no one said that there was a trans mafia that controlled Congress or any institution in the real world. The world wouldn’t let you even if you tried.
But when it comes to the gay community – ever eager to prove how inclusive and PC it is – it was like taking candy from a gayby. They were the perfect mark. One after another, gay organizations were suddenly renamed “LGBT” organizations and people who used to speak in words now spoke in acronyms. All of a sudden, being gay didn’t mean that you loved people of your own sex; it meant that you were a “gender non-conformist,” in the same category as casual cross-dressers, hermaphrodites, transsexuals, and even guys who like to wear ascots.
And anyone who objected became a “transphobe”. The one thing that never happened was a real debate among gay people as to whether we wanted to redefine ourselves as people permanently at war with our gender. You stifled debate then, and you stifle debate today. The difference is that today there is an internet, and gay people can talk to one another free of your bullying and realize that they are not alone in concluding that this forced association with trannies is insanity.
MMDD
@jason: Can’t believe all the thumbs down votes you’re getting, Jason, because what you’re saying is totally accurate.
MMDD
@jason: Another excellent post, Jason. And you’re totally right. Dan talks about the one side but fails to acknowledge the other.
jason
MMDD,
Thank you so much. I appreciate your support.
I actually find it amusing that people would go to the trouble of giving me a thumbs down. Don’t they realize that, eventually, it will cause my comment to be hidden and thus increase curiosity as to its content?
I’m a great believer in calling a spade a spade. I believe there is far too much political correctness in society and that the gay community has contributed to it.
jason
I have found that a lot of women object to having their double standards exposed, whether it’s the double standard to do with clothing or bisexuality. I also find that the GLBT community sometimes supports the double standards of women, a fact which horrifies me.
It’s as if there is this form of pro-female political correctness going on in relation to the types of things that women are allowed to do in comparison to men. It’s concerning because it reveals women as being inherently dishonest.
Of course, not all women are this way. However, their cultural notions – which are demonstrated in the way they act and behave as opposed to what they believe – often reveal their true motives as a gender.
MMDD
@jason: I see the value of political correctness but think that society in general (not just gay folks) tends to take it to the extreme, much like other causes that start off with a good purpose in mind.
I’m also a believer in calling a spade a spade, and I must admit I have a low tolerance for BS. I do hope these types of discussions will one day lead us to a point where people will be more open and honest about their sexuality, whether they are gay, bi, or straight.
MMDD
One more thing I’d like to point out. I’ve been out as a gay man for almost 20 years now, and I’ve always sensed the unsteady tension between the gay and bi communities. Gays don’t particularly seem to like bis, and bis aren’t always too fond of gays either. (Not meaning this about all gays and bis, of course…just making a point.) Sometimes I think we’re so hell bent on trying to force-fit the whole LGBT (and now we’re adding Q to it) umbrella to cover as many groups as possible that we miss a very important point: We are all DIFFERENT from each other, and often our journeys are quite distinct. We don’t always do a very good job of accepting each other because far too often we don’t “get” each other. Sometimes I wonder if we’d be better off if we focused more on our own particular group instead of spending so much time examining another group that we simply don’t understand in the first place.
Jaroslaw
#13 I can get what you’re saying Misanthrope, everything you say on 13 is fine. I just fail to see how any of that relates to Dan Savage. If people don’t like Tranny’s and think they’re men, etc. etc. how is that Dan’s fault? His column is snarky and occasionally snotty which readers seem to like but he’s not a hater.
#21 Jason – while you are correct that there are Gay men who are Bi and don’t want to admit it and straight men who are Bi and don’t want to admit it; I say three things. 1) If these people don’t want to admit it then how do you know how many there are? My guess would be not too many and therefore doesn’t impact in a significant way the larger point Dan is making. and 2) many disagree there is a greater stigma to being Gay – ie if you still like the opposite sex, then there is “hope” for you. and 3) We will probably never live in a completely sexually free society and every other aspect of life requires choices and commitments; I think most people will ultimately have to commit to one thing or another for the most part.
#27 RE: “let’s blame all the Black people for Prop 8 in California.” If as a percentage they voted in higher numbers to deny equality, isn’t that simple mathematics? I’ve heard Dan speak too much and read his book to think he would wade into that without thinking first. I read his comments. He never blamed the whole thing on Black people or said all Black people are bad. But I think one can assume that Blacks or any other minority group don’t like to be discriminated against so for me personally HOW DARE THEY discriminate against someone else when they get the chance.
To all – it is very easy to see everything in absolute terms, and toss around hateful terms because someone doesn’t agree with us 100%; than accept there are shades of grey and that even the best of us can say things that aren’t politically correct. But sometimes the truth isn’t popular or easy to hear.
I think on the very large balance Dan has been a great asset and spokesperson for the LGBTQ community.
Rob Moore
@Ogre Magi: You mean someone actually fucks him?! Jesus, what is the world coming too.
Rob Moore
By recoiling and taking offense, we give certain words power to hurt us. I refer to myself as gay, fag, queer, poofter, etc. all the time in conversation as a way to take away that power. I do not say it in a joking fashion in an attempt to get homophobes to laugh. I say them in conversation in ways that neuter them. I’m a fag. What are they going to do about it? Nothing, because I took the word away from them.
If a word is hurtful, it is up to you to accept it that way. I choose not to. Certain words are offensive to some people such as fuck, cunt, dick, pussy, butthole, goddamn, etc., but I use them freely. They are simply words. It is childish to turn them into verbal talismans.
Rob Moore
Well my most recent post went into the black hole of Queerty moderation and will never be visible to anyone but me. It is the ultimate in what our gay society considers acceptable censorship because I included a list of naughty words as part of my comment.
marti abernathey
LOL, I can’t be racist, I have black friends. Dan, I love u and your podcast, but you don’t get to decide what language is and is not offensive. Tranny is a word that’s come to dehumanize trans people. When you add on top off that a gay man is trying to dictate whether its offensive or not, its not only offensive but condescending and oppressive.
NickadooLA
The intent of the speaker and the context of the spoken should always trump whatever power we’ve decided to attribute to a silly word.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Bill Perdue: @Bill Perdue: You bring up an interesting point about whether non-gay and no-trans people know (in other words straight people) know the difference between gay and trans. I just had this conversation with a friend who didn’t understand. She thought that trans was the same as gay. That gender issue are the same as sexual orientation issues. It was an interesting discussion. I have known her for years. It never occurred to me that she didn’t know the difference. I gave her a practical example- that there can be trans people who are straight oriented or gay oriented- rather since their gender situation is a separate issue. That kind of confused her. I think on the level of understanding the different communities, mingling them together is a problem. Legally- for equality- its not, but definitely for having people understand.
I also agree there does seem to be bullying to call anyone who wants to discuss the issue a bigot rather than allowing them to discuss it. When I take pains to point out that I am not discussing legal remedies (those things that actually will affect people’s lives legally rather than emotionally) the response is often to be just as virulently against that discussion as the legally one. Like with some gay men, the point for many seems to be emotional acceptance rather than discussion of underlying truths.
I think too here off the bi issue. I think its funny that someone can not be questioned about bisexuality although experience teaches us otherwise. That, effectively, those here debating this are not arguing that our experiences are wrong, but, that it should be ignored. This is what they are lashing out at.
I ususally don’t like Dan Savage. I find him offensive as a general principle. I think many of his statements on trans issues have been questionable in the past. This post, however, by him is actually an astute and complicated one. I definitely don ‘t subscribe to the view that I need to be walking around on egg shell worrying that I offended someone each time they internally decide to change language and meaning. As Cam stated, that’s not a reasonable position to expect me or anyone else to know that or even care. If language is being used to harm someone and that harm is clearly shown, that’s one thing, but it can’t just be that some group has decided on its own that regardless of factual analysis they are harmed. I give the practice example of “men loving men” amongst African Americans who didn’t want to be called gay. It was just a bunch of b.s. and I will say it to this day that it was and is b.s. At the end of the day, you have to have some ability to talk to each other that’s deeper than worrying over this stuff.
Lookyloo
As a bi guy, I think Dan’s thoughts of internally questioning someone who says they are bi are perfectly rational. I have come across a few posers in my time. I also have experienced ‘snobby’ reactions from gay guys who’ve sneered at me and called me a liar (meaning, unless their dick is in my mouth, they think I’m some sort of phony). On the other hand, I’ve had the same bigoted comments said to me that the gays get from the straights. It’s a weird place to be. I’ve had relationships with both guys and girls and have found that most girls are not comfortable with my bi-ness or if they are, their friends find it concerning. I end up wondering when (or if) I should tell a girl I’m interested in that I’ve been with guys. Luckily, most gay people don’t have any problem with my bi-ness and since the gay community accepts me far more than straight people do, I identify more as part of the gay community.
Tallskin
@Bill Perdue
– actually Bill, that’s the clearest and most concise analysis of the hijacking of the gay/lesbian movement by trannies that I’ve ever read!
So, true.
M
@Bill Perdue: wow, what a sick twisted thing you are
M
“I think too here off the bi issue. I think its funny that someone can not be questioned about bisexuality although experience teaches us otherwise. That, effectively, those here debating this are not arguing that our experiences are wrong, but, that it should be ignored. This is what they are lashing out at.”
So the whole world and an entire group is supposed to be defined by YOUR experience, not real science, or the experiences of millions of others? Wow, a little full of ourselves are we?
Bill Perdue
@M: Those are fake posts. I’ve always posted in favor of inclusion.
Bill Perdue
@M: @Tallskin: @D’oh, The Magnificent: @marti abernathey: @Bill Perdue:
Posts 17 and 18 are fakes. Some zionist piglet or Obot piglet got upset.
For my real views use google before this date.
DR
I think that Dan has oversimplified the issue of bisexuality, to be honest.
Back in the day when I can out, about 20 years ago, you had two options for your identity; “gay” or “straight”. That’s it, unless you moved over to the radical side and decided on “queer”, which was (and remains) more of a political statement as opposed to a sexual orientation. Bisexuality was always a “transitional” phase for men to become gay and an “experimental” phase for women in college who wanted to let their freak flag fly. In that respect I can agree that in our past, bisexuality had a certain reputation.
I don’t believe bisexuality has the same reputation today. I think that bisexuality is becoming more understood, but it’s not quite on the level of homosexuality in terms of being understood. We do need to work on that a bit. There is still this assumption that a bisexual man who dates a woman is “straight” but “gay” if he dates a man, and that’s not true. The interest in both sexes doesn’t disappear because a bisexual man decides to have a monogamous relationship (bisexuality is NOT license to be a slut!).
As for the PC Police, well, I’m with Dan. We need to be rational and sane about what we do and do not allow to offend, and it’s gotten to the point where everything which has not been PC Police, LGBTQIAA Division-approved is considered “hurtful”. Nonsense. Words only have the power you allow them to have.
GlindaG
@ Dan Purdue
“And BTW, if trannies have no right to tell G and L people what is offensive to them, then please immediately stop using the term “cis” and “LGBT”. The former term was created by trannies to describe the 99.9% of normal people who don’t identify as tranny, and that term is used without their consent. The latter term is a fiction perpetrated by trannies in order to leverage control over gay people, their organizations, and their money.”
Small quibble. I doubt anyone every called somoen a g-durn “cisgendered person” or “lgbt person” while pointing a gun at them or bashing their brains in with a fire extinguisher. You can’t say the same about the “f-word,” “n-word,” or “t-word.”
Bill Perdue
@Jaroslaw:
The idea that Blacks were a signifigant factor in the defeat of same sex marriage in California is pure racist bull.
The black voting bloc in California is far too small to have swung the vote. The problem with the vote there was two fold.
First, EQCA/No on 8 abandoned the field to cult bigots in minority communities, who make up a majority of the population.
Secondly and more critically the Bigot in Chief, Obama went on MTV and at Rick Warrens southern baptist bigot fest to bellow the bigot’s rallying cry “gawd’s in the mix” and defeated same sex marriage.
Bill Perdue
@GlindaG: @M: learn to read. Read number 45 and 46.
I’ve been a defender of transgendered and transexual people for all the time I’ve been posting here and a critic of Democrats like Quisling Barney Frank for gutting ENDA. The record is clear. I’m also a critic of the racists who blame out defeat on African Americans in California – they’re just scapegoationg to cover their blundering.
Anyone at Queerty can double register and use duplicate faked names. It happens all the time.
It was a favorite trick of a zionist anti-semite piglet named Tank, who disappeared for a long time but who’s just been released by the mental health facility.
Bill Perdue
@GlindaG: There will be more fake posts and I’ll probably get flagged so I can’t reply. If they’re right wing or a caricature of leftist ideas just igonre them.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Bill Perdue: I thought your point wasn’t about inclusion, but about definition, but since its not you, that’s fine too. I assume inclusion as a matter of default So, I didn’t even think about it in those terms.
DR
@GlindaG:
“Small quibble. I doubt anyone every called somoen a g-durn “cisgendered person” or “lgbt person” while pointing a gun at them or bashing their brains in with a fire extinguisher. You can’t say the same about the “f-word,” “n-word,” or “t-word.””
I’ll concede that point, but will also note that you miss the bigger point, which is someone made up that first word to define someone who didn’t ask to be defined, and that’s a big part of what this discussion is about. I hate the term “cis”, it’s utterly nonsensical to me. I don’t need some queer or trans or some other radical defining who I am as a man who is comfortable as a man. It’s called “being a man”. We don’t need new words for everything, and it relates back to the issue of having certain phrases and issues and ideologies forced upon us by a small segment of the population who seems to think they can tell everyone else how to define themselves.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@DR: a) Yes, even his statement on bisexuality is overly simplified, but at least it gets beyond “oh you hate bisexuals” for pointing out that the term has a lot of definitional problems with what its encompasses. Do you call someone who is gay who previously said they were bi out as “bi”? What about people who simply experimented but are straight? Etc. His point is that true bisexuals should realize that the nature of trying to describe something that encompasses the acts of the two polar types is going to by necessity promote confusion and require more than just a label. Being gay and straight doesn’t require this additional clarification. It certainly doesn’t come, in the case, of being gay with the baggage of being perceived of as slightly better than being gay like bisexuality is perceived of by some straights and some people who say they are bi, but aren’t.
I have a friend, just to name one, never slept with a woman in his life who said he was bi when he first came out as gay. Is he really bi? No, but according to bisexuals here we are to pretend that he is. And to be “empowering” we are to ignore his actual orientation in favor of a label that he choose not to empower himself, but instead to avoid empowering what he truly is- which it turns out be is gay. This is the complexity of language and labels that trying to label anyone who disagrees with bisexuality as true in all cases often misses.
And, his larger point about language is definitely true. I have always tried to call people what they want to be called, but lately, as I have gotten older, and noticed that language that I was originally told was okay, is now not okay- not because of any external bigotry that required me to examine the language- but because of the group changing name, and then, without any reason stating that the old name is now bigotted- well let’s just say I am exhausted.
A non-sexual minority example- the whole change from being called black to African American-to me was annoying, but now, I was recently told last year that saying I am a part of a minority group in America is offensive. I kept asking why, and was told that it simply is.
The biggest problem with this sort of anti-intellectual analysis of names is that it results in us wasting a lot of time not addressing what’s important. Making sure that people are free to do what they want under the law- which is the big battle for all of us right now. Not labels.
In the social context, we need to be able to discuss the complexity of language without being called bigots for doing it. You need to be able to show that a label was used previously to promote harm to you as a group (ie tranny etc) AND that the complexity of a label is not merely reflective of the definition being vague (ie bisexuality) To me that’s a useful way for deciding at this point how much weight to give to these sorts of discussions. Is there real harm or just talk of it without that harm being defined?
D'oh, The Magnificent
@M: No, you get it backwards.
The the whole world is based on varied experiences, and pretending as bi sexual radicals here do that everyone who uses the label “bi” really is bi is what he’s reacting against since your position is actually the simplistic one. Not his. He’s not saying bisexuality doesn’t exist. He’s saying everyone who uses the label isn’t doing it for the same reason. Some really are grappling, and others are avoiding.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@DR: Agree with your post regarding defining everyone else through the process of defining one self. it is not just that “bisexual” to me here is used by some to denote what they themselves are, but that they want it to be used for situations in which it is clearly not the right term to describe what’s happened with a subsegment. I believe someone here once wrote that a gay person who has ever had sex with a woman is bisexual , which to me at the time was b.s. because while there are some true bisexuals, such a description as defining a gay man who was closeted and having sex with women as bi seems to defeat the purpose of defining people as they are rather than as labels trying to win ideological or cultural arguments. To me, we are all trying to groping for that meaning, and the real issue is trying to address the complexity of doing so with out resorting to simple constructions like “people can decide for themselves” since language loses meaning if you do that and “we can decide for you”since inviduality loses mean iff you do that. The issue is one of trying to balance differing interests.
Bill Perdue
@D’oh, The Magnificent: Inclusion has always been at the heart of the discussion and right wing Democrats like Frank the Queersling have always bent to Republican pressure to exclude trans folk from bills Like ENDA. They just defeated an inclusive bill in New York.
Of course now ENDA is dead, and may remain so if Republicans win a bunch of seats this fall. If that happens the Democrats will do what they do best, cower. [img]http://www.thewholeamericanhog.com/editor/imagensUpload/Image/Mr%20Fish/FishDonkeys_350.jpg[/img]
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Bill Perdue: Well, maybe I haven’t made this clear: I am trans inclusive on ENDA. We may be different, and our issues are different in terms of application of equality, but the underlying concept, that we are all equal is not different. Equality is the same for all of us. But, then a lot of people don’t understand equality so its not surprising that each new group wants to say how they should be equal without realizing how it relates to other groups. They think equal means “they look and act like me.” This notion of equality espoused by conservatives, and repeated of late by some African American leaders (I am black so this annoys me to no end) and gay group leaders, as equality were someone must be exactly like you is screwed up. That’s not equality. That’s conformity.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Bill Perdue: By the way, when I speak of AAs, I am only bringing that up due to the recent spats with some people who want to pretend that there is no analogy to be had from discussing the civil rights movement. The truth is that I probably shouldn’t put it that way because there are a lot of white Christians who pretend there is no analogy to be had either. It is just that as an African American who remembers the less of the civil rights era, it pisses me off to see straight people of color fall for the same b.s. that was used against us as people of color. But, at end of the day- that’s why equality laws exist. Majorities- not matter what race they come from, if they are in the majority in a category, will want to look down on a minority. Thus, non-trans gender majorities will want to look down and not see equality analogies with transgendered, and straights will want to look down and not see equality regarding gays when compared to race and whites used to see no issue of inequaility when it came to people of color. Its all the same even if the specifics differ as to how the discrimination happens.
jason
A lot of you have a very limited understanding of human sexuality, sad to say. All you really know is what you see in a gay bar. I can’t think of a more horrific setting from which to draw knowledge. Let me put you straight.
Females are sellers, men are buyers. This paradigm is caused by the difference in the strength of the sex drive between the genders as well as by the difference in the longevity of the sex drive between the genders. Put simply, men have a greater sex drive than women, and men can keep on producing their gametes until their 90’s whereas women cease when their menstrual cycles stop, usually in their late 40’s or maybe a little later.
As a result, women are compelled towards a marketing paradigm. They need to sell themselves to the buyer – who often rewards the women with financial security – using every trick in the book, and every gimmick as well. Revealing clothing is one such trick.
With the advent of the permissive society, women have also resorted to using sexual versatility as a gimmick through which to sell themselves. This means they will advertise themselves as sexually open and sexually fluid (ie bisexual) in order to appeal to a man.
Keep in mind that women, unlike men, can fake orgasms, thus disguising their true reasons as to why they are having sex.
When you combine marketing with phony moans, you end up with a version of human sexuality that is far less honest and far more trivial than male sexuality. In essence, it is women who trivialize the concept of bisexuality.
Bill Perdue
@D’oh, The Magnificent: We have the same idea about inclusion. Cutting inclusion from ENDA gutted it, and now we’ll have to wait, probably, for a long time, before it comes up again.
Cynthia Lee
I am bi-sexual and transsexual. It took me YEARS of the most painful soul searching and questioning to come to both conclussions.
When you silently question my sexual orientation you cut me to the bone. It is far harder in this society to be openly bi than it is gay. I know this in a very intimate and personal way that a only a formerly out gay who has come out bisexual can.
Niether men or women are very likely to maintain a long term relationship with us. The constant fear of adultry tears at them and ruins the relationship.
Back in my male incarnation I found that gay men took it as a personal chalenge to prove that I was just a gay man in denial, and women mostly will not have sex with you because the fear is that because you are bi you might have HIV. And if the woman does want a relationship there is a good chance she is looking for a kinky experiance. All they talk about is wanting to watch. (sound familiar ladies?)
I was VERY lucky to find a bissexual polyamourous wife who actualy gets it. Just because we are bi doesn’t mean we are destined to adultry, or social disease. We are just as capable of self denial that any breeder or queer is when they see someone that comiting adultry with comes to mind.
I think alot of the bi hate is fueled by fear in most and a touch of jealousy in others. Fear that somehow we will corupt or ruin society in some way and in the few who are jealous are often closeted bisexual and envy our ability to be open and honest.
I have a good idea…
If you are not bisexual you are NOT qualified to write about our issues. When you do you apropriate my identity.
Oh yeah and the main reason I even started this post….
I AM A TRANNY! I absolutly love the word. My friends and family are the best people in the world. I am not forced into the male box or the female box or gender policed or orientation policed. I am just allowed to be and that is a tranny. I would like to be a woman some day, but that will take many years and experiances before I will be comfortable being called woman. For now while I am in this inbetween state I am a tranny. I am proud to be so because I know how incredibly hard and near impossible transition is. Many trans folks go to their graves with this secret and they lived in a hell both personal and societal. The lucky and or strong ones transition.
Anouther idea….
If you are not trans don’t write about trans issues. You are entirely UNQUALIFIED to do the job. You don’t get it. I promiss no matter how much listening and empathy you bring to the table, you will never know what it is like to be trans.
Bill Perdue
@D’oh, The Magnificent: My opinion is that there are good reasons to compare and contrast the two struggle and that can be done without equating them.
Jaroslaw
#49 Bill – Blacks are 7% of the population in California; per the Census. How can that not count?
You’re quick to jump on the popular bandwagon and talk about racist bull; explain why one discriminated group should get a pass on discriminating against another group???
.
Bill Perdue
@Jaroslaw: 7%. And how many are adults? Adults who voted? And what percentage is that of the total vote against same sex marriage?
And how does that now noticeably reduced vote stack up against the votes of mainly Euroamerican bigots from the cults; catholics, morons and southern baptists. Those are the anti-LGBT piglets, along with lots of bigoted ‘liberals’ who were empowered and galvanized by Obama’s ‘gawd’s in the mix’.
Obama, the bungling ineptitude of EQCA/No on 8 and the audacity of Yes on 8 who spent millions on a last minute radio-TV-print campaign featuring Obama’s bigot war cry are what beat us.
You’re quick to jump on the popular bandwagon and talk about racist bull Google my comments at Bilerco, here and Pams in the early morning hours of Wednesday, November 5th, 2008. I’ve said the same thing about the racist idea that AA’s defeated same sex marriage since the morning after the election. Being anti-racist isn’t ‘jumping on a bandwagon’, it’s being principled and human.
WTF are you talking about? explain why one discriminated group should get a pass on discriminating against another group???. I have a good idea but I want you to be a bit more specific before I put on my lambasting gloves.
jason
What on earth has being a tranny got to do with bisexuality? Absolutely none as far as I’m concerned. They are two different words with two different definitions. Please don’t bring tranny politics into the realm of bisexuality.
Tackle
Blacks were only 6percent of the ACATUAL eletro-vote for prop-8. A number that “low” could not tip the scale eather way. Acatually there were more whites who voted and PASSED prop-8.
Qwerinty
That’s okay, Mr. Savage, “some of my best friends are ‘cis’ies.”
Seriously? We’re back to that kind of language? He claims to have bisexual and transgendered friends, but it’s clear from his language that he does not respect them as much as his other friends. It’s only natural to doubt someone who identifies as bisexual? That’s some awful marginalization there.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Bill Perdue: That’s not what equal protection analysis does. It would help if you were a lawyer in reading my comments.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Cynthia Lee: I really am not going to play along to emotional black mail. The fact defining words to you “cuts to the bone” says you have a lot more work to do to me because unless those words about you- then you shouldn’t be affected by them.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Jaroslaw: because you and others have a problem with causation being the same as correlation. Race is not what defines the class of voters who vote against equality. Age and religion defines the class. As i say to other bigots, and that’s what you are, the difference can be found in those states that have no significant black populations (or people of color or that matter) and similar results have been found. The numerical outcomes can only be explained once you exclude race for other factors that voters share in common. Age being a view for generational views of gays and religions for obvious reasons. Ultimately what bigots don’t get is that by focusing on the wrong causation (race) you don’t provide solutions because you aren’t even identifying the nature of the problem.
DR
@D’oh, The Magnificent:
I am referring to healthy bisexuals, not closeted gay men or women when I talk about bisexuals, D’oh. I am talking about men and women who clearly have relationships with either men or women, and can be open about that.
I don’t agree with the PC Police that we ought to label any man who ever had sex with a woman as “bisexual”. That’s kinda silly, most gay men would end up being called “bisexual”. But we need to avoid this simplistic idea that bisexual men are really just closeted gay men waiting for the right guy to come along and make them scream “I’m gay”.
My issue with Dan’s comments are that he is continuing to support a very poor paradigm, one which ultimately forces people into the “straight” or “gay” box. That was fine in the 90’s, but we know better now. It’s disingenuous for him to say that folks have every right to believe a man is lying when he calls himself “bisexual”. His comment show that he clearly doesn’t understand human sexuality as much as he claims.
DR
@jason:
Jason, the misogyny which comes through in your posts whenever you discuss female sexuality is beginning to really bug me (and others, I suspect). Your constant assertions that bisexuality in women is just a “selling point” strikes me by bad queer theory informed by too much reality tv, while your assertion about how complex male sexuality (especially bisexuality) strikes me as overcompensation and/or chauvinism.
Are you a bisexual guy? If so, would you like to share some of your experiences which have informed your position with us, please? I simply cannot figure out where the venom against bisexual women is coming from…
Jaroslaw
#71 D’oh – if pointing out facts makes me a bigot, so be it. Yes, I’m fully aware that age and religion factor into this. But the analyses show that Blacks as a group voted against equality in a higher percentage of other groups. Either this is true or it isn’t. I work with 70% Black people at my job and the idea of a Gay history bulletin board made most of them apoplectic. The traditional Black church is where most of these people attend and other factors weighed in on how they voted so the analyses makes a lot of sense to me. This is exactly what the percentages show and reflects what Black Gay guys tell me. So if you don’t accept these statistics that do not appear to be deliberately biased and indeed there is every reason to believe they are true then I won’t accept any analyses or stats you cite either.
I would think that they, having been and are still currently, being discriminated against would ALL have voted FOR equality. This is the point that you will not address.
Bill #65 – I’m not going to analyze how many Blacks voted, how many were voting age and all that other stuff – I’m citing statistics that were gathered about all groups – see the paragraphs above.
Re; jumping on the bandwagon – It is abundantly clear from what I’ve posted here only (not to mention everywhere else that you have read yourself) that I’m well aware that Black people and others have been discriminated against and still are; what I meant to imply was that you are only seeing one side of the coin, which is what you always do and I’m not going to write an entire page about it because you just ignore it anyway.
Jaroslaw
#72 Dr – you say Dan doesn’t understand sexuality as much as he claims. The quote above is only a couple short paragraphs. I see the words “a lot of” and “many.” Where do you come up with the idea that Dan doesn’ believe Bi’s exist? He never said EVERY man is lying. He never said all Bisexual men are Gay men in the closet. I could go line by line through your post with the same stuff.
Not only that, common sense argues with what Dan is saying. Now, I’m tempted to say that very few Gay boys want to admit they are Gay growing up. But since I don’t have direct personal knowledge of that, I’ll just say that I personally believe that BECAUSE of the definitely true fact that every society on earth punishes those who go against the norm.
Etc.
Jaroslaw
I meant to say common sense argues FOR Dan’s point.
DR
@Jaroslaw:
So in Dan’s mind, “many”, “most” and “a lot of” bisexual men are liars and are really gay. Hmmm… sounds like stereotyping and generalizations to me. He’s stuck in the 90’s. As are most gay men when it comes to bisexuality. They don’t get it, they can’t conceive of it.
It is absolutely disrespectful to question a bisexual’s sexual orientation because you don’t understand bisexuality. Much the same way as gay men get fed up with being told they haven’t found the right woman and lesbians get told they haven’t found the right man.
He also fell into the trap that bisexuals don’t “get” discrimination because they can get married. The old “bi privilege” argument. Sure, maybe bisexuals can legally marry members of the opposite sex, but that doesn’t make them straight (how many times must I repeat that?!?), and it certainly doesn’t mean they had an easy time finding a partner willing to deal with their bisexuality!
Maybe generalizations and stereotypes are good enough for you, but for a supposed sexuality expert, I find his ideas about bisexuality to be wanting.
mzmartipants
Y’all are funny. The truth is that neither “gay” or “straight” men want to admit is something Kinsey said years ago. Human sexuality is diverse. What is gay? If a guy gives me a blow job in the dark and I fantasize it’s Dolly Parton, does that make him gay?
We are sexual animals that are motivated by opportunity and desire and the spectrum for most is pliable.
I no longer ID as bisexual and never will. I fuck who I want to.
mzmartipants
Y’all are funny. The truth is that neither “gay” or “straight” men want to admit is something Kinsey said years ago. Human sexuality is diverse. What is gay? If a guy gives me a blow job in the dark and he fantasizes it’s Dolly Parton, does that make him gay?
We are sexual animals that are motivated by opportunity and desire and the spectrum for most is pliable.
I no longer ID as bisexual and never will. I fuck who I want to.
mzmartipants
Y’all are funny. The truth is that neither “gay” or “straight” men want to admit is something Kinsey said years ago. Human sexuality is diverse. What is gay? If a guy gives another guy a blow job in the dark and he fantasizes it’s Dolly Parton, does that make him gay?
We are sexual animals that are motivated by opportunity and desire and the spectrum for most is pliable.
I no longer ID as bisexual and never will. I fuck who I want to.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Jaroslaw: I can assert gays don’t have their rights in many states because of white voters.
Indeed, I can find evidence to back up that claim in states like Oklahoma and the midwestern states. But, it would be correlation, not causation. It is not that your “facts” are wrong. It is that they are irrelevant.
Your mistake is something one learns in a basic stats course. For example, the number of license plate registrations went in the UK dramatically at the same time as the number of mental patients increased. This is a fact for a particular year in the UK. Therefore, I could do as you are doing and conclude that the number of license plates has something to do with the number of mental patients. Since they both are at high numbers I can try to say one causes the other.
That would be an absurd argument. It would be absurd for the same reason your argument is absurd. Its because it is confusing correlation of a trait with causation of an outcome. More blacks voted for prop 8 because they were a) black OR b) because they are Christian?
In your feeble racist mind, it’s because they are black. In the mind of someone interested in analysis, one looks at what trait crosses over to explain the behavior.
That race is the factor rather than religion. Here’s the thing- you aren’t very smart. In fact, you are probably an idiot about the thing you are a bigot about, or else, you would see the arguments I am making. Still, here’s my advice- spend less time chatting online, and go down to the local community college to take up a course in stats.
Hilarious
@Jaroslaw: You’re an idiot and your “facts” slipped out of your ass.
Spend less time typing up bullshit and more time investing in diapers so we don’t have to smell it.
Jadis
@Bill Perdue:
Oh man, thanks for clearing that up. I was just about to rip you a new one there 😀
Failtroll has failed.
Jaroslaw
D’oh – I’m not going to sink to your level and name call. But for someone who is calling me feeble and bigoted, you need to got back and read what I wrote:
I never said Black people are solely responsible for Prop 8. I said they voted in higher numbers against it. Since they and other minorities have been discriminated against, I would think they would vote for equality. You STILL won’t address that.
Of course I understand correlation – teen pregnancy increased after men landed on the moon is an incorrect correlation. There are more Whites voting than Blacks so yes, of course they had a higher impact but I never said they didn’t. And I never said Blacks were responsible for the passage of Prop 8. You just won’t address the question. I don’t pretend to know for sure each and every time people make a decision what trait is responsible for how they think, in my example I was using observable information to explain why I think the statistics aren’t biased. I also don’t think that age or religion should be an excuse to discriminate. Think again before you accuse people of not being so smart.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Jaroslaw: To come to my level would require you to look up rather than down. That you think you are above me says a lot about how much of idiot you are. Once again, take a basic course in stats, and stop trying to come up with retorts online.
Jaroslaw
D’oh – You are failing to comprehend common english expressions! “Sink to your level” only referred to the name calling. The fact that we disagree doesn’t mean I’m above or below you.
Anyone else reading this knows that; and is keenly aware that you will not explain why a discriminated minority feels it is okay to discriminate against another minority by voting against equality.
Further stating facts or a logical, thought out opinion is not a retort either.
I can sure see why a lot of peole who used to post here don’t anymore. The quality of the discourse has gone down greatly.
Jaroslaw
DR – would you agree that 20 or 30% of something would qualify as many? 35% may qualify as a lot?
If Bisexual men can get married to an opposite sex person, then they DON’T experience discrimination. You state ” that doesn’t make them straight.” Who said it does? I don’t see that in my posts or Dan’s.
You certainly have some legitimate complaints but not about Dan or me. Have you actually read his books or columns on a regular basis? If so, cite what bothers you. If not, then you can’t say he’s stuck in a 90s paradigm.
DR
@Jaroslaw:
I’d have to see studies and links, I don’t work on assumptions and made up percentages just to prove a point, so throwing those out at me will not get a response either way.
I read Dan’s column regularly, but that does not mean I have to agree with this statement. I don’t. Again, it goes back to stereotypes and generalizations. And his stereotypes and generalizations are probably based on not much. While he may be right historically speaking, that doesn’t mean his assumptions hold any water today.
If you agree with Dan’s statement regarding discrimination which has a bit of an “us versus them” mentality, that’s fine, but I do not. It really doesn’t show much understanding of what bi folks go through to find that stable relationship.
WTF
let a word have power over you and it will. I think Dan is saying he doesn’t want to be a victim to “that which must not be uttered”.
Rob Moore
@StillBisexual: I can only say that my experiences with men who claim they are bisexual does not cause me to believe that simply because they say they are bisexual doesn’t mean they are. If that logic worked, when I was 14 and told a boy with whom I had had sex that I was actually straight, I would be. Or that when I was 18, I told another guy I was bisexual that I was. In my life, I had sex with three girls and married one of them. I had sex with hundreds of men. I stopped claiming bisexuality when I was 25 and came clean with everyone in my life at that time. I was gay when I had sex with a boy at 13. I was gay when I had sex at 18. I am still gay at 56.
I met a lot of men who claimed to be bisexual, but the only people they seemed interested in dating or found attractive were other men. Even the ones like me who were married. I will concede that bisexuality is possible, but I have never met one.
missanthrope
@ Jaroslaw @ 35:
I don’t think that Dan is really a hater. But he uses terms that for me that are offensive to me. I think you would feel the same way if some straight dude was throwing around the words f$%got or fudgepacker, even if they weren’t mean about it the words still hurt.
I just don’t think he knows too many trans or bi people in real life. But he pretends to know all about us and pontificate about is in nation-wide newspaper column when he’s been told again and again that some of what he says (and the words he uses) are considered pejorative by a great many bi and trans people. He then goes and does it anyway. That’s the most insulting thing about it.
In my book that makes him a dick who doesn’t care about what he says or does.
IDK, that’s my truck with Dan Savage, I don’t feel respected by him and don’t like what he calls trans people and what he says about bisexuals.
jason
Perhaps Dan Savage’s problem is that he spends too much time in the gay ghetto. The gay ghetto is like a cult. It will color your viewpoint on life.
missanthrope
@jason:
Wow, you’re really stuck in 1950 aren’t you? Quick, get this man a time machine! Pronto.
Herb
@missanthrope: You don’t like what Savage says about bis? Really?
He says many gays coming out say they are bi when they are not. This is a truth.
Your problem is not with Savage. You’ve got a problem with the truth.
jason
Gay is a horrible word anyway in terms of how it’s used. When used as a noun, it’s simply a horrible label that is designed to put you in a box.
As for your attacks on me, I really don’t care. My proposition is that we gay and bi men need to be IN the mainstream, not out of it. We’ve created a rod for our own backs by segregating ourselves.
Homophobes love the fact that we’ve segregated ourselves. It means that we’re secluded and invisible. Homophobes love this. You self-segregating gays have made homophobes happy.
ewe
Is he really the best representative for the gay voice? I never liked his sex column and i never cared for his dry tackiness.
Jaroslaw
Ewe, I never said he was the best voice. It is not possible to write a doctoral dissertation every time here to cover every possible question because it would be too long and no one would read it.
Or perhaps you weren’t even directing your question to me. But he is one of the leading voices we do have and I think he does pretty well. He is reasoned, rational, not shrill and doesn’t sink to the level of most of the people he is debating against. And while he may be well paid for books or columns, I would be almost positive that is gratis therefore something he isn’t required to do.
I already said his sex column is sometimes snarky and snotty but I don’t know what dry tackiness is. That is a contradiction I think! He obviously has a huge audience with his column and books so in some ways it doesn’t matter what either of us think about that.
Jaroslaw
sorry meant to say TV & Radio appearances he does gratis
Estraven
@D’oh, The Magnificent: I totally agree with Cynthia Lee. You are invalidating her. She has a right to her feelings (go to the Yahoo search engine and look up “Invalidation”). One of the things that bisexuals get the most tired of is people who know nothing whatsoever about bisexuality deciding that they are the big experts in it, and telling us about our sexual orientation. I don’t lecture Jackie Chan on how to be Asian; Dan Savage needs to stick to what he knows, which is how to be a gay white male.
Secondly, as a community we have a lot of rights we need to win. Sure, trans people worry most about not being killed and jobs, bi people about not being told we don’t exist and everybody hating us, gay and straight, Lesbians about womens’s issues and same-gender marriage, gay men about same-gender marriage, and queer people of color about racial prejudice plus queer issues. However, ultimately we all worry about queer prejudice to a certain extent no matter how priviledged we might be, everyone hopes for some kind of partnership rights at the end of the rainbow, there is a certain degree of overlap in all our struggles. If we all keep squabbling, L and G and B and T are each a pretty small slice of the pie, but studies show that if you just look at behavior, up to 27% of the population may engage in same-sex and trans behaviors. If we could all be more comfortable with each other, maybe we could get the straight-identified MSM’s and others to identify as queer, and think how powerful a voting block we could be with 27% of the population idetifying as queer!!!
Jaroslaw
#88 DR – 20% is not a “made up” number …. it is a question: do you think 20% of something is a lot or not? The only answers are “yes” or “no”. Obviously my point is that Dan or whomever can say “a lot of ____(fill in the blank)”, and it can be 20 or 30 percent and it still isn’t anywhere near the majority.
I do not understand your logic when you say “if you agree with Dan’s statement about discrimination..” Do you think a Bi man who is married to a person of the opposite sex experiences discrimination? If so, why? My feeling if he is reasonably discreet there would be no reason for discrimination. If he is open about it, I still think most married people would identify with him having a wife and kids, if he is otherwise a pleasant likeable person. If I’m wrong tell me why you think so.
#91 – I’m getting lost here – exactly what terms does Dan use that are offensive? The word Tranny? Others? What is he pontificating about that offends you? I’ll be honest and say I don’t remember a lot about Trans stuff, but his overall theme which I base on YEARS of reading him is that people should be sexually free, open and find a partner who feels the same way they do. Sexuality should not include activities which demean the other person or children. This is what I remember. If he has said mean things about Trans or Bi’s please let me know what your citing.
counterpoll
@Cynthia Lee: You neglected to mention what state/country you are from, your religious affiliation, health-status, ethnicity and your social class. Those things matter.
By your own logic, I could say this “Unless you identify as a cis-gendered, lower-middle class, gay male HIV neg., mildly epileptic immigrant from Southern Europe, then you have *no* right to discuss my sexuality or my rights.”
But I wouldn’t say that to you, because it’s better that we focus, wherever possible, on our common interests.
ewe
@Jaroslaw: jaroslaw: no i was not directing my comments to you and yes it does matter to me what i happen to think.
ewe
@Estraven: I agree with you. There is such an orientation as bisexual and from what i gather in my own experience with people, being bisexual is more difficult than being gay in many ways. I am referring to the personal process people are living through. We do not need people like Dan Savage slicing and dicing us apart. Hate to burst his bubble or be mean but i do not find him avante gard either. Like i said earlier he is tacky and i have always found him to be tasteless except for a few times on MSNBC. The more attention he is given the larger his ego seems to get. If you never read his sex column from decades ago then you just do not know what i am referring to. There are better voices to represent US because Dan Savage is not about anyone except himself and those pretty much exactly like him. Before anyone goes around considering themselves to be diverse they should take a look at their personal holiday table photographs. Then get back to us. A bunch of gay white men for XMAS dinner does not tabulate as diverse to me anymore than a bunch of straight black evangelicals do.
counterpoll
@ewe: Dan Savage’s only ‘credentials are that he has written a column for a long time and that he is a gay man and father.
To his credit, he was for many years, one of the few advice columnists willing to field questions on *any* issue pertaining to sex. He has ‘educated’ more of the general public on sexual orientation, kinks {paraphilias} than many other advice columnists. He does call on subject-matter experts from time to time and sometimes admits it when he is off-base.
He’s never passed himself off as an academic, or pretended to be politically correct.
That said, he has *many* blind spots, biases and gaps in his knowlege base, He doesn’t follow research very closely, and is slow to change his mind despite credible evidence suggesting he is sometimes out of date or plain wrong.
For instance, his opinions on bisexuality don’t mesh well with the wide swath of good data we have on the generational [age-related] and multi-country studies of bi-identified individuals. He also ignores decent research on the differences between bisexual male and females’ sexual expression and pathways.
I wish he would own up to his own power in the media, and realise that many people do rely on him as their primary source of info. With that power comes responsibility, which he too often wields carelessly.
I personally, as said earlier on another thread, wish he would watch his use of words such as ‘fag’ and its derivatives, and be aware of the loaded terms for transgenders. His use of some of those words doesn’t and shouldn’t give license to those appellations being slung around without great caution and sensitivity.
cp
Pip
I think some straight people call themselves “bi” because its a way to express their estrangement with the status quo/hetero-normative life style. Its sort of like people who call themselves “queer.” There’s a phenomenon of using sexual identity as political speech in our culture. Dan is right on the ball in that sense.
And no, he isn’t a PHD in human sexuality, but he’s a hilarious incisive thinker, and a decent writer. We really shouldn’t be getting up his butt so to speak, over these kinds of innocent quibbles.
Jaroslaw
102 Ewe – isn’t it self evident that each person cares about their own opinions? Otherwise why share and post here?
Me saying it doesn’t matter what you or I think is not a slam at you, again, it is self evident that a huge number of people like Dan’s columns and books.
#104 – such sweeping statements! “Wields his power carelessly” and “slow to acknowledge research.” “many blind spots and biases”. Your only example to ‘prove’ what you are saying is about bisexuality. Unless many people posting here are flat out lying or delusional it should be obvious from all the comments here that there is hardly an opinion on bisexuality that is shared by a large majority.
#105 PIP thanks a breath of fresh air and reasonableness!
DR
@Jaroslaw:
Again, not dealing with made up numbers or suppositions. That just plays into the lack of understanding.
As for your second question, yes, he experiences discrimination, just look at some of the comments in this thread. Look at the comments which come whenever there is a thread on bisexuality here or elsewhere. The ignorance from some (many?) gay men and women, as well as straight folk, regarding the topic of bisexuality is staggering. Americans rarely acknowledges the existence of bisexuality properly (read my earlier comments; it’s either experimentation by future gay men of America or girls trying to make a guy hot), bi folk are told “not welcome here” by straight and gay people, and when bi folk marry or commit to someone of the opposite sex, it’s just assumed life is hunky dory.
We need to have this discussion because I see a real misunderstanding of the topic by a lot of people. And Dan’s comments aren’t helping, neither are the trolls who try to hide the comments they don’t understand.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@Estraven: I don’t care how many screen names on this site chime in agreeing with comments that are clearly screwed up.
Jaroslaw
DR – You say agreeing on definitions “plays into a lack of understanding” – but defining terms is exactly what AIDS in understanding – when two or more people are starting at the same points of reference! I would even go further and say even without agreeing to define what “a lot” is; a lack of understanding is assured when the majority don’t want to think about anything that doesn’t directly apply to them; which is what the rest of your post alludes to.
You also say to “look at the comments here” for proof of Bi discrimination. Well, I see a lot of diverse opinions; I don’t see any specific examples of discrimination, so if you want to help me understand, please provide some specific examples. Esp. about opposite sex married Bi people.
D'oh, The Magnificent
By the way, i find the term discrimination used to loosely here to mean “it makes me feel bad.” That’s not discrimination. Show how the state harms you in society. Not in your emotional needs. Societies aren’t required to provide you emotional validation. I tell that to gay men seeking the same from society all the time.
DR (the real one, not the guy who made post #12)
@Jaroslaw:
Again, I’m not interested in playing a made up numbers game with you to prove a point, so just drop it already. We know what a bisexual is, Dan’s prejudices aside. We know that bisexuals exist, and we know that not all bisexuals are confused gay men or straight girls trying to get their boyfriends hot (I’m feeling like a broken record now).
You need to read Queerty a bit more, you’ll see ample examples of the lack of understanding about bisexuality, both male and female. Read the Anna Paquin story; read about the political candidate from Philly; read about the NAGAAA, etc. There’s ample commentary from numerous posters here who don’t get it, yourself included apparently.
I’m not sure what is so difficult to understand about a married bi guy, Jaroslaw, so why don’t you tell me? It’s pretty simple to me, he likes men, he likes women, he finds a partner who happens to be female and that’s who he decides to settle down with. That still makes him bisexual. Why is that such a difficult concept?
cynthia Lee
I just think that if you are not bisexual you can’t understand the plight of the bisexual.
Just because we sleep with homosexuals on occasion does not make the strugle the same.
I have been out loud and proud gay male, strait male (ok that one was a really big lie I told for a long time, lol), bi male, then finaly a pansexual transsexual. I think I have seen from the front lines what it is to be gay and what it is to be bi.
I am of the opinion if you are not a member of a particular minority then you are not qualified to write about their strugles. I do not mind someone trying to suport and advocate but dude went to far when he said it is justifyable to question a bisexuals identity.
JK
@StillBisexual:
A “Few” people??? What planet are you living on? Almost EVERY SINGLE guy I’ve known who identified as BI at first came to conclusion that they were gay. Exceptions exist, true, but if I were to rely on experience, I’d had to say a conservative estimate would be above 50% for those who don’t come wearing Neon signs with their flamboyancy. Bi people exist, duh. But a lot of that statistic is clouded by the overwhelming number of people that choose the label to avoid categorizing themselves or avoid confronting their own inner impulses and emotions. How this argument got morphed into an identity police shake-down, forcing all “Bi” people to hide their true natures and simply hunker down with one label or the other, is beyond me. Blame people who sport the Bi label as a fad, as a cover, or as a stepping-stone. Don’t blame others for RATIONALLY considering this fact when assessing somebody’s claims about their sexuality. To do otherwise would be irresponsible intellectually . This is all savage is saying.
ewe
@counterpoll: I read those columns and it was nothing more than vile vicious crap meant to shock. The problem was that it did nothing for me. It was just crass. And worse it was extremely mean. I distinctly remember each week how rude he was to the letter writers. So tell him to save it. I am not interested in someone who thinks the word fag is no big deal. I don’t either when i use it on myself or other gay people say it. That is not and never has been the issue. He is a hypocrite. He knows damn well the word stings people if used by others meaning to damage your psyche. Now Bisexual people have to admit they are gay to accomodate Dan Savage? I don’t think so. He needs to grow up.
ewe
@Jaroslaw: I understand other people like what Dan Savage has to say. I sometimes do as well but not in reference to this. What other people think does not effect how i feel. I have my own experiences that form my opinions.
Jaroslaw
Dr – you’re sounding like a broken record because you don’t comprehend or read what people are saying or SOMETHING:
NOWHERE do I say Bisexuals don’t exist. I’ve already said I don’t get CERTAIN things, not all of it, so I aske you to tell me and you just keep rambling. I know perfectly well that a Bi is a person who likes both sexes so why are you defining it?(3rd paragraph, second sentence on 111) I asked for specific examples of how Bi married guys are discriminated against.
What I’m looking for is something like: “Bisexual married guys are discriminated against because once their boss finds out they are fired? Lose friends? Get their account closed at their local bank? Have their homes vandalized?
Perhaps I didn’t read all the articles on Queerty about it, but you’re the one making all the assertions, I asked for some examples. If you don’t want to provide them, stop rambling. Just say you don’t want to do it.
Jaroslaw
#115 EWE I really don’t mean this in the “rude” way it is going to come across, (I really don’t)but there is no “nice” way to ask this: if you are unwilling or unable to learn from others; only accept your own experiences and don’t care what other people think, why are you here?
DR (the real one, not the guy who made post #12)
Jaroslaw, clearly you who don’t comprehend what bisexuals face in straight and gay community, from what I can read. I’ve already talked about how the gay and straight community both discriminate against bisexual men and women over the supposed “hetero privilege”. At the end of the day, when gay men and women refuse to understand or accept bisexuals, or worse, berate them because they can “pass”, that’s one part of the community discriminating against another part. But you apparently want a de jure analysis instead of a de facto analysis because the de facto analysis negates your sense of victimhood.
I will simply remind you that bisexuals are included in most (if not all) major legislation (DADT, ENDA, hate crimes, etc), and that some of those laws are written without comprehension of the full spectrum of sexual orientation is not my fault, I didn’t write them. It’s not my fault that Gay, Inc pushes what happens to same-sex couples, all of whom are then referred to as “lesbian” or “gay”.
You’re demanding an answer which will fit your own personal agenda and belief system, and that’s not going to happen. You consistently choose to ignore the reality of what bisexual men and women go experience, and want to hang your hat on a faux-legal analysis which you think proves how “easy” it is to pass as a straight guy if you happen to be a bisexual man who marries a woman. This is exactly the kind of nonsense I’m talking about when I see gay men discriminating against bisexuals. Get over it.
Chisholm
@mzmartipants: Yes “Miss” Marti Abernathy, you never miss an opportunity to let people know that you are trans and you like to fuck. We get it, honey, but the imagery ain’t too cute. Blech and yawn.
And please, no details on how black men “love” your stuff soooo much. We’ve heard those tranny porn fantasies too. Unfortunately. Blech and yawn.
D'oh, The Magnificent
@JK: How does this always turn into bi radicals claiming bigotry? Because that’s what they always do no matter what the conversation is about. It doesn’t matter you concede that bisexuality exists. I have seen others try and fail. Its really about forcing us to accept the idea that we shouldn’t be into labels. IN othere words, ignore facts in favor of agenda.
Jaroslaw
DR
You are free to provide any information or examples you want (which you continue not to do) and somehow that is MY AGENDA?
D'oh, The Magnificent
Its interesting to me how people try to avoid the fact that they are pushing an agenda rather than discussing factual analysis.
I think of those who became angry at a scientific study a few years back because in a fruit fly or some other organism like that, the switch suggested that one could have same sex mating habits or diferent sex, but not both, and the argument was that this meant the scientists were biased against other permutations
I remembered thinking the people saying that didn’t get it. The study didn’t disprove the existence of bisexuality or anything else, but instead was addressing a different species and the parameters of the research. Yet, their own agenda set about denying the factual nature of the study. The fact is in other species we see a lot of sexual varation. Some of fit suggests same and different sex pairings, etc even within the same organism. But because one study said one thing about a particular experiment- the queer theory types came out to shout down the results.
To me, that’s wshat we are seeing here. When someone discusses the very real fact that not every one is bi who says they are bi, that shouldn’t even be a matter of debate since factually its simply the case that this is true. Some peo aren[‘t bi.
DR (the real one, not the guy who made post #12)
@Jaroslaw:
Clearly you agree with Dan Savage, and like many gay men (Dan included), you have no clue what it means to be bisexual. Every attempt I have made to explain the reality of bisexuality has failed miserably because we are not on the same page, and quite frankly I’m not sure if it’s because you cannot grasp the concept or refuse to grasp the concept, although I’ leaning toward the latter.
I think that, like many straight and gay folks, it’s just easier for you to put people into easy-to-define boxes, and since bisexuality tends to be not-so-easy to define, it’s simply dismissed because of ignorance.
Jaroslaw
DR
Apparently you need be hit on the head with a 2 x 4 before YOU get it. Your last post insinuates that you’ve analyzed my posts and determined I agree with Dan Savage. I’ve said plainly that I do! NO analysis necessary if you simply read what I wrote!
And the point I agree with Dan on is that while acknowledging bisexuality exists, a very significant number of people who say they are Bi are NOT. Our point of disagreement is that you are putting words into his and my mouth that we did not say such as your very last sentence that we “dismiss bisexuality” because it doesn’t fit in a neat box.
If I truly felt that way, I wouldn’t be wasting all this time trying to have a discussion with you.
You are out of touch with reality – asking you for examples that YOU CHOOSE and that I have NO CONTROL over CANNOT be my agenda. YOU are in control because you cite and explain what you wish to expound upon. You say I cannot comprehend what Bi’s face in the community. No I can’t because I’m not Bi and you won’t say what it is they face. Yet another your post 118 – where did I say how easy it is to pass for straight? I said I think (Note: “I think” means: MY OPINION, I’m not saying it is a fact) that married straight coworkers can relate more to a Bi man who is married and has kids because they share that in common.
You are the one who is refusing to comprehend and understand. Let’s say I refuse to acknowledge the existence of Bi people. They are still free to live their lives. I own no corporations that hire and fire. I’m not working in a governmental capacity to have an legal impact on their existence. Since you seem to know so much more about me than I do myself, how would I benefit if I don’t accept Bi as an authentic lifestyle?
Chisholm
@Jaroslaw: “, a very significant number of people who say they are Bi are NOT”
And you know that HOW? What empirical data lead prompted this revelation?
The same faulty and discredited CNN exit poll that you rely upon to claim that blacks were the Prop 8 tipping point?
You’re such a reductionist, and the epitome of racist gay white male faux privilege. Blech.
DR (the real one, not the guy who made post #12)
Jaroslaw, I HAVE explained to you what bi’s face, and you don’t get it, so. I have already told you what bisexuals face, for crying out loud! People tell bi’s they don’t exist; they tell them it’s ok to question their sexuality; people tell bisexuals it’s a phase of experimentation or transition; people accuse them of heterosexual privilege; people don’t want to date them and the whole idea of it makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
How is it that you don’t understand that, Jaroslaw, it’s what people tell gay and lesbian people during the coming out phase. This is where I am getting frustrated trying to have any type of discussion with you, because this shouldn’t be so damned hard to “get”, because gay and lesbian people go through it, too. Let’s not worry about job discrimination or marriage rights, let’s start off with the things GLBs have in common in terms of the coming out process and how the folks around us are impacted or can impact that.
DR (the real one, not the guy who made post #12)
Jaroslaw, I HAVE explained to you what bi’s face. I have already told you what bisexuals face, for crying out loud! People tell bi’s they don’t exist; they tell them it’s ok to question their sexuality; people tell bisexuals it’s a phase of experimentation or transition; people accuse them of heterosexual privilege; people don’t want to date them and the whole idea of it makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
How is it that you don’t understand that, Jaroslaw, it’s what people tell gay and lesbian people during the coming out phase. This is where I am getting frustrated trying to have any type of discussion with you, because this shouldn’t be so damned hard to “get”, because gay and lesbian people go through it, too. Let’s not worry about job discrimination or marriage rights, let’s start off with the things GLBs have in common in terms of the coming out process and how the folks around us are impacted or can impact that.
Jaroslaw
Dear DR – Gosh, I almost gave up, but I must respond to your latest post – you finally got to some bedrock: (although there are still a lot of things you didn’t respond to)
1. If people don’t think Bi’s exist, then how do they face discrimination?
2. Why don’t people want to date them? And how do you know this?
3. This is really precious: People accuse Bi’s of heterosexual privilege. How do they do that? Over coffee at Starbucks?
4. The whole idea of it makes a lot of people uncomfortable.
Hmmmm. When I or Dan make statements about “a lot” of people, we’re being pigheaded or furthering an agenda. But when you do it, it’s what? Information?
However, #4 was somewhat rhetorical, so I’ll play nice and agree that Bisexuality probably does make a lot of people uncomfortable. My question would be how does this play out in real life? Does someone announce they are Bisexual at work? To their neighbors? Do you think they are simply uncomfortable because they don’t understand it or does it have to at least in some small part have something to do with what I said earlier; that most areas of life require choices and commitments?
5. “People tell them it is okay to question their sexuality.” I know what you’re driving at here; bisexuality is not respected as a choice and I agree. But there is a flip side to this – YOU can’t have it both ways. If it is disrespected, and misunderstood then it seems inevitable that a lot of people would question their sexuality without any prompting from others.
I can appreciate what you say about working together on what we DO agree on but
I would disagree about not worrying about marriage rights. Some people will never get past the “what they do in bed ‘ick’ factor” ; others will never bend from a relgious point of view. But from a legal and civil point of view; I think that is the ONE thing that will be the great equalizer. I think Massachussetts proves it every day. The sky hasn’t fallen there. You hardly hear anything about it and it has been 5 or 6 years since full marriage was legal there? Continuing, since we can’t even agree amongst ourselves (great point) it is hard to see how we are going to win over a lot of heteros.
Jaroslaw
Chisolm #126 apparently you haven’t read everything here or you couldn’t say what you did.
RE: Bi’s who are not: There was a book called The Gay Male Couple (I think that was the title) and they interviewed tons of men who were older and it was common knowledge that homosexuality was not considered normal; businessmen and corporate types knew they had to fit the cookie cutter mold (house in the burbs with wife and kids by age 30/35) if they wanted a promotion and until 1973 homosexuality was considered a mental illness. Many many of these men married because they thought it was a passing phase, they could be cured etc. Witness all the reparative therapies and all the guys who say they don’t work. Wayne Besen talks numbers all the time among many others. Many people have posted here about it and finally it is common sense that going against the norm (ANY norm, not just sexuality) in any society is a problem.
Re: Black exit polling – CNN is not the only game in town. Again if you read (past tense) everything I wrote even only on this post, you may disagree with me, I might be wrong, but I’m hardly the epitome of White Gay Male privilege.
For your information, I’ve belonged to Black organizations for over 25 years (probably more years than you are old) and they would be very surprised to hear you call me a racist!
DR
@Jaroslaw:
Keeping this simple:
1. Denying bisexuality exists and questioning its validity is a form of discrimination.
2. I know that bisexuals have dating issues form talking to them and reading what bisexual men and women write. Unless they’re making things up to be argumentative and contrary, folks are uncomfortable with it in both the straight and gay community.
3. “Heterosexual privilege” is thrown at bisexuals who have opposite-sex relationships. Dan makes it very clear he doesn’t feel that bisexual folks who have opposite sex relationships aren’t in the same boat as gays and lesbians. How much clearer need he be about that? He is throwing “heterosexual privilege” at bisexuals, whether he’s aware of it or not.
4. People handle their bisexuality the same way folks handle any sexual orientation. Some come out and face issues with work, family, etc., while others stay in the closet. Just as we have a wide range of expressions in the G/L community, so do bisexuals. My own opinion is that bisexuality is a bit more uncomfortable for folks than homosexuality because of the fluidity involved. Then there is the extra issue of how to handle a monogamous relationship, which can be tricky when you add an attraction to both sexes into the fray.
5. Bisexuality isn’t a “choice”, much like being heterosexual or homosexual is a “choice”. But you get the point about it ot being respected as a sexual orientation, so I won’t make too much of an issue of it.
ewe
@Jaroslaw: Being here, reading other posts which include yours is MY experience. I don’t even understand your question.
Chisholm
@Jaroslaw: “For your information, I’ve belonged to Black organizations for over 25 years (probably more years than you are old) and they would be very surprised to hear you call me a racist!”
Of course massa! Whatever you say boss!
BLECH.
Some of the most patronizing white gay men I’ve met call themselves inter-racial this or inter-generational that. You like to suck black cock. Big whoop. That doesn’t mean you think we’re equal and surely doesn’t absolve you of a colonial “let me help the natives” attitude.
CNN hired the exit poll you’re referring to and many others repeated the meme. Ken Sherrill of CUNY-Hunter College and Patrick Egan of New York University conducted a precinct-by-precinct voter analysis in California. The “yes” votes from the vast majority of California counties, most of which were overwhelmingly white such as Kern, Bakersfield, Orange, Indio, SD etc, fueled the Prop 8 vote. You want to blame Prop 8 on someone, try going to Anaheim or the San Fernando Valley.
And fwiw, those black snow queens who invited you “to black organizations” are probably a hot mess themselves. You blame Prop 8 on blacks in front of them? Self hatred is a motha…
Jaroslaw
Chisolm – The problem is not that we don’t agree; but the fact that you say I blame Blacks for Prop 8 is proof you’re not reading what I’m writing so there is no point to continue this discussion.
But for the record, yes, I did speak my mind at the Black organizations and the president of one of them was a much older Black woman who said that she would never wade into territory such as this because she would be viewed much the way you are viewing me.
This may shock you – I actually discussed the CNN poll with a friend at dinner and he says the “Blacks voted in higher percentages” things was found to be inaccurate. So, I’m wrong.
Evan
@DR: How do you suggest that we specify people who are not trans? Is there alnguage you would prefer us to use when the attribute of not being trans is relevant to the conversation?
We need some sort of word. Trans men and women are men and women too, and in general we prefer to be identified simply as men and women, but in cases where our trans history or identity is relevant, we use the modifier. A similar modifier is needed for people who are not trans because there are a number of situations where we may want to talk about both trans men and men who are not trans in the context of trans issues, and it’s either offensive or nonsensical to talk about “men and trans men.”
“Non-trans” is an option but it has the unfortunate problem of identifying you by something that you’re not, which is usually not considered respectful. So since you didn’t seem to have a specific modifier to describe yourselves in that context, one was invented. Do you have an alternative suggestion? Just “men” doesn’t cut it, any more than just plain “people” suffices to describe white people in discussions about race.
DR
@Evan:
No, we don’t need a word to identify men and women who identify as they were born, and certainly not a word made up by the trans lobby. This is why I hate the “queer” movement, everything has to have a damned label. Identifying me as a man and transgendered people as “transgendered” is sufficient in my mind. I’ll certainly never respond to the “cis” term, nor will I ever use it.
As a real man, I feel nothing in common with a transman, and will not allow one to tell me how to identify.
Jadis
@DR: Well I hope you don’t complain when some straight dude tells you he’s not straight, he’s a real man, unlike you. “Real” men like women, after all, right?
DR
@Jadis:
Real men don’t need radical surgery and hormone treatment to be “men”. Sorry, but as the T community likes to remind us, gender identification =/= sexual orientation. Two different issues, and I won’t be forced to identify with one group or use their terms (like “cis”) because the PC Police tell me to. I feel much more camaraderie with my straight male friends than any T person I’ve ever met.
Jadis
@DR: Nothing PC about it. “Cis” is what WE call YOU. Don’t like it? Too bad. You’re not required to “identify” with anything. Gay and trans are indeed two different issues, and we would be much better off without you, to be honest.
No wonder transmen feel no camaraderie with you, I wouldn’t either. I’m sure they can feel your animus from a hundred metres away.
jeffree
@Jadis: You said: “we would be much better off without you, to be honest.”
— — — —
Sad thing is that you probably would. I’m NOT suggesting I want to see that happen, but based on the infighting between
++gay men [progressives vs conservatives, one racial/ ethnic group versus another, wealthy vs not so wealthy, even rural vs urban] and THEN
++gay men vs lesbians
++AND the LGs vs the Bis
the Trans communities are, IMO, like the seemingly overlooked second cousins at the brunch.
Based purely on my obeservations in my corner of the universe & what I read here & other blogs, the Rainbow flag is in tatters. I will get thrown off the bus or under it for saying this, but in my heart of hearts, I don’t see why the Trans folks even WANT to be part of the rest. That’s a question of sorts, not a value statement.
Yes, we have interests in common & face common enemies, but I’m not sure thats enough thread or glue to keep that Rainbow flag in one piece.
I hope history will prove me wrong.
Jadis
@jeffree: I think the problem is inherent to identity politics, which is essentially political tribalism. While that’s what makes it effective, of course it tends to attract the tribal-minded and the divisional infighting begins.
I went into GLBT all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and came out all ratty and bitter and disillusioned. I was very reluctant to abandon it and held out for quite a long time, but I think there’s just too much piss in the pool at this point.
I hope you (and I) are wrong as well. Maybe the kids will make it work.
GirlAboutOakTown
I normally don’t engage in comments on this site, because the bitter old queen act is fucking tiresome as hell.
Male bisexuality is so stigmatized, why would anyone in this day and age, when male homosexuality is at record levels of acceptance in US society, come out as bi if they were really gay? In our culture it works like this: if you like cock, you are percieved as gay. When bisexual men tell people – straight or gay – that they are bi, people automatically decide that they are, in fact, gay. So like, why would anyone bother? For men, there is not a some level of social acceptance that bi men have that gay men do not.
This isn’t nearly as true for women, which is entirely different and has a lot to do with the male gaze/objectification/etc. Whole nother issue.
On the whole though, OUT bisexual people are going to be faced with the same homophobia that gay people receive. It’s. That. Simple. It’s not like it’s ok to be bi and in the military! Yes, bi people can and do get in exclusive partnerships with members of the opposite sex, in which they can sometimes – but not always – “pass” as straight people and recieve the benefits that come along with being straight. But even in those cases, they still aren’t straight.
I’m convinced that there is a huge segment of the population we’d consider “bisexual” – through orientation, attraction, behavior, whatever, who don’t identify as such because of the stigma. Shit, just go to Craigslist M4M and see how many straight married dudes are there. These guys aren’t all secretly gay, most of them have fulfilling relationships with women but are also into guys, but are terrified to be public about it because there is no effective way in our society to be an out bi man and have people believe you. THIS is why Dan’s comments are so hurtful.
DR
@Jadis:
I’m glad we agree on that, and now we can move on. The GLB community should be doing its thing, and the T/I community can do its thing since they’re two different issues.
It’s not animus as much as it’s common sense. It gets tiresome to constantly expand the rainbow umbrella to cover anyone who “isn’t heteronormative”. We’ve been fighting about it for decades, it’s time to get the hint.
jeffree
@Jadis: I hope the “kids” will figure it out, too. I’m a few years away from 30 and I’m already tired of the infighting and the bigots, politics, haters, and…. even the rainbow bumper stickers –(they fade after a year — what kind of omen is THAT!) 😀
Jadis
@DR: Well, claiming transmen can never be “real men” seems pretty animus-laden to me. Of course you see it as common sense, just like Tony Perkins does. Tony Perkins also sees marriage-between-one-man-and-one-woman-only as common sense as well. Sometimes the world is counterintuitive.
Quite frankly, I don’t see much commonality between the GLB either. Marriage, I guess, but that’s about it. Same with the T and I, and I say that as someone who is both (XXY represent, yo).
jessOMG
“One my best friends is trans.” OH NO HE DINT
I’ve never respected Savage on trans issues – or anything really – his smug, douchey column is full of fail with regard to anything that’s not cisgender, gay and male. And possibly there too.
He likes to use “shemale” a lot as well and there’s the whole “omg bisexuals dont exist” fail.
Dan, you can say “faggot” because as a gay man you own that word. You can’t say “tranny” unless you’re trans. And you’re not. Therefore stop using words that are slurs. Actually just stop using words. thox.
jessOMG
I grew up w/ hearing “tranny” or “transy” not being a slur – although apprarently the latter has fetishistic connotations.
I’m also trans – therefore I can say that word all I want – but I also know many transgender people think it’s a slur, so I don’t.
It’s not up to cisgender people to decide what’s offensive or not to transgender people.
And certainly don’t use these words in hate.
jessOMG
Savage has done drag in the past but I don’t think that makes it right.
Doot
trans are fags
Alex
Dan is a biphobic, transphobic, racist, sexist fuckwit.
jazzie collins
@xerxes:
Hey Right wing Dan or may address you as asshole dan.
I must jump in and stand up for my ( Transgender sister & brother across america’
Dan may ask you a plan question ? Who in the hell gave you the power to say anything about my community.
We have been around before the church came into play and your bible was written by king james in 1611.
We are very education we speak very well in public and dumb ass we are very happy. Why are you telling lies to people who isn’t smart because you can control them with your hate message alone with fear. By attacking some body else because that the only thing that you know how to do. BTW I’m a very happy transgender female community leader, this the why I stand up to bigot like you dick head got that.
Ms. Jazzie L.Collins.
From: San Francicco, ca.