For the last three years, the Gender Expression Non-Discrimination Act (GENDA) has passed in the New York Assembly just to die in the Senate. Lots of blogs, LGBT organizations, and web users helped pressure NY Senators to pass marriage equality. Where were those people when our trans-siblings needed help getting GENDA passed?
First, let’s let Monica Roberts from TransGriot explain what GENDA is exactly:
If passed [GENDA] would amend the state non-discrimination laws to add gender identity and expression to the list of characteristics protected from discrimination in employment, education, public accommodations, housing and credit. It would also add gender identity and expression to the state hate crimes law.
Sadly, J. Rudy Flesher at The New Civil Rights Movement said the New York Transgender Rights Organization (NYTRO) counted 32 Senators who pledged to pass GENDA, but the bill never made it out of Senate committee.
Before the end of the legislative session Roberts quipped:
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
“Once again the ‘all marriage all the time’ GL movement has the noise machine cranked up for same sex marriage passage, but not a amplified peep out of the noise machine for GENDA, which will benefit far more people than the ability for a few to get married.
As I’ve said repeatedly, it does you no good to be able to marry someone if you can’t hold a job to pay for the wedding ring, the wedding and the wedding reception and the haters can keep you from renting the reception hall.”
But once the legislative session ended, Roberts came back and said, “The bottom line is that we trans people also have the ultimate responsibility of looking out for our damned selves just like the New York GL peeps did on the same sex marriage bill and pass the civil rights laws we need.”
She then asked these questions of the trans-community:
Where were the local leaders, orgs such as NYTRO, NYAGRA, the Sylvia Rivera Law Project and others that advocate for trans rights and transpeople?
Why didn’t you New York based trans advocates ask your trans family in other states for help in getting the word out that GENDA was percolating through the NY legislature?
Does that mean that the trans-community has reason to resent the GL community for lack of action? Well, naturally it depends on who you ask. Kyril at DailyKos.com actually sees some benefit in marriage equality for trans-people:
And for LGB trans people, [recognition of LGB marriages is] important. For a long time, we weren’t even allowed to transition unless we could pretend to be straight. We weren’t taken seriously. People, including the medical establishment, believed that “real” men were attracted to women and “real” women were attracted to men. Homosexuality was seen as abnormal or dysfunctional long after it was delisted from the DSM. And medical professionals were loath to let people transition into what they saw as a dysfunctional, incomplete, gender-inappropriate lifestyle.
The availability of transition for LGB trans people has grown with the social normalization of homosexuality. And in New York today, gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals are legally fully “normal.” Our relationships are valued just like everyone else’s. And that means the world to me – not just as a gay man, but as a trans man.
Never the less Kyril also adds, “please push your congresspeople to support GENDA next session. And everyone call your federal congresspeople about ENDA. Non-discrimination is the next big piece of the equality puzzle.”
Hear, hear. Queerty will do its part to help make that happen.
Cam
Gee, what a shock, it only took a few hours for the transgender groups to start attacking gays after we get a great bill. As for what Monical Roberts said….
““Once again the ‘all marriage all the time’ GL movement has the noise machine cranked up for same sex marriage passage, but not a amplified peep out of the noise machine for GENDA, which will benefit far more people than the ability for a few to get married.””
She is an idiot. That is like saying that having the right to vote is only relevent to a small percentage of Americans because a majority don’t vote.
This isn’t about who gets married, this is about being seen as an equal person and not having a civil right denied. If Ms. Roberts is so completely wrapped up in her own issue that she can’t see that written laws that directly classed us as second class citizens are not worth attacking then she is not somebody who should be dealing with these large issues.
Ted B. (Charging Rhino)
I’m sorry to all those affected, but I just don’t see transgender as a core “gay issue”. It’s not about sexual orientation or who you’re attracted to…it’s a gender self-identification issue. It’s not about being “gay” or being “lesbian”.
Jeffree
Passage of GENDA would have been a wonderful thing. Marriage equality is worth celebrating. We can agree on that.
What I’m not clear on how to assign blame for GENDA not passing: how much is it fault of the state Senate, the professional activists &/or the citizen activists?
Was it automatically a zero-sum-game between the two bills?
This issue is guzzling bandwith on many blogs, fingers are being pointed. I’m still not hearing much more than accusations, which will not bring GENDA any closer, nor make marriage equality go away.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@Cam: Yeah, those goddamn cunts.
JAW
Here we go again… The Trans people (or at least some of them) do not know what they want… they can’t agree among themselves.
Some members on here do not want our help… indeed have said that the Trans folk have been in the front of equal rights for LGB Folk.
I am not sure what to do… I am frustrated by some of the Trans Folk… They want to rename the people born male or female as cismale, cismale or cisgender. That pisses me off
A Trans woman wants Drag Queens to put up a warning sign at shows etc. stating… “We are homosexual men – not transexuals.” I find that toooooo funny…. Once again one activist giving the rest of the Trans community a bad name.
Many trans people identify as straight… why not ask the straight community for help instead of the LGB Folk??? I bet that they get a lot of support.
But in answer to the article… No, I do not think that the LGB’s throw the Trans under the bus… I think that there were many of us there helping… and we will continue to help. Like the post said… it is Time for the Trans community to take the ball and run with it… we will help to block and tackle for you as you do.
Sweetbrandigirl2004
I feel now that NY has victory in same sex marriage that the transgender are on their own in getting any bill approved, I agree that laws covering gender expression for people like Monica Roberts don’t have much change and that laws covering gender Identity for Transsexual have just the same change….none without the boarder Gay & Lesbian community behind them and lets face it once DOMA falls which should happen after Obama gets in for his last term then Gays and Lesbian org’s will have NO interest in helping push Transgender bills. Lets face it sexual orientation is completely different then a guy putting on a dress and excepting no demanding to be call and treated as a women.
The Senator from Maryland said it best
“I would never hire anyone who has male genitals and wears a dress to work and I’m not going to vote for a law that would force my constituents to do it either.”
Ganondorf
I guess it was all for nothing, then. Oh, and no more drag at pride, transphobes! ha ha
Jeffree
Even the metaphor of throwing people “under the bus” gets mis-used all the time.
Logically: if I throw you under the bus, that means I am not on the bus or driving the bus. ERGO: If I am driving the bus or riding the bus, and you end up under the bus, look elsewhere for the cuprit!
Maybe a better analogy could be used?
–o–
Calling it the “Trans Community” seems a misnomer: anyone who’s stepped over to Bil or Pam’s places in recent memory has seen the tremendous rifts & namecalling going on there between very different sub-groups associated with T.
The vitriol comes out against not only other Trans people, but against lesbians, bisexuals & gay men. Read it & weep.
With that level of division & rancor, it must be hard for them to organize for a common cause.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@Sweetbrandigirl2004: It’s all about priorities, and prioritizing the movement. Unfortunately some communities aren’t immediately important.
Laughriotgirl
@Cam:
“This isn’t about who gets married, this is about being seen as an equal person and not having a civil right denied. If Ms. Roberts is so completely wrapped up in her own issue that she can’t see that written laws that directly classed us as second class citizens are not worth attacking then she is not somebody who should be dealing with these large issues.”
And this is different than the ability to not be fired for transitioning? You are aware that GLB people have had that right since 2002..right??
@JAW: “Many trans people identify as straight… why not ask the straight community for help instead of the LGB Folk??? I bet that they get a lot of support.”
Seriously, you are correct. I (and most trans women I’ve ever met) have found that we get more support and respect from straight people than gay people. Obviously there are exceptions, but I’m far less likely to disclose my trans status to gay men than I am to straight men. There is a growing number of straight men who are admitting an attraction to trans women. There is a ton of education to do with that population since much of their information is coming from porn (how they can think that porn is a realistic representation of anything is beyond me) – but the thing is, they are getting it – and talking about it and willing to work with us because they have a vested interest in doing so… and … unfortunately, our link to gay men, and some gay men’s insistence that being attracted to trans women of any operative status makes them “self-hating gays”, makes some of these guys nervous. I’m finding, however, that combating transphobia among gay men is far harder than combating homophobia among men who are straight, don’t want gay men calling them “closet cases”, but are generally well disposed toward gay people.
Joe
I have as much in common with transgender people as I do with christians, beyond the fact that we’re all human. I wish them the best and I’ll certainly call my elected representatives when/if a bill of significance comes up for consideration. But I have never understood how I got lumped in with them as a demographic.
missanthrope
Well, it didn’t take much time for all of the transphobes come out to get few cheap hits in at trans people and generally throw poo out of their cages.
Monica is right. Of course we should celebrate equal marriage in New York and as a queer trans person this benefits me.
But we also should recognize that cisgender GLB people have had basic non-discrimination rights in New York under SONDA since 2002 and that trans people were excluded from SONDA so it would be passed. We should be aware of that and recognize it as a major problem. Instead most people don’t want to talk about and get upset when trans people speak out about because it is an Uncomfortable Subject.
In the state I currently live in I have more rights and privileges as a trans person than a trans person living in New York does. That’s sad.
This isn’t a “gay vs. trans” issue that baby boomers obsess over, it’s a “look at all of the stuff we have left to do” issue. If you believe that all people should have equal protection under the law and shouldn’t be fired for being trans or gay, then you’re pro-gay and trans rights, period. Enough with all of the “who’s in and who’s out of the LGBT” bullshit. People have been arguing over it since 1995 and it hasn’t solved anything. I’m more interested in winning.
missanthrope
“The vitriol comes out against not only other Trans people, but against lesbians, bisexuals & gay men. Read it & weep.With that level of division & rancor, it must be hard for them to organize for a common cause.”
You made that judgement of trans people through visiting two websites? Really?
Exactly how many trans people do you know in real life? Do they fit the description you’ve just made?
Despite people’s self-importance, blog section comments do not accurately reflect the real world.
WillBFair
Again we see infighting for no reason. We just had a sweet victory, and instead of enjoying the moment, trans folk are complaining that we aren’t doing enough for them.
It goes back thirty years, when the word gay wasn’t good enough for us. No. Lesbians had to have their own name. Then bisexuals. Then trans people.
I always hoped that we could all just be gay people and hang together as a community. Instead we’ve got these ridiculous initials: LGBT, or GLBT, or cismale, or whatever the newest labels are from the infighting bitches.
TheRealMannequinAdam
@missanthrope: Actually, yes, they do reflect the real world, since they are REAL people in these communities who are putting forth these arguments and the vitriol that Jeffree alluded to. Cam’s comments at the beginning of the article concerning Ms. Roberts and her victimizing of trans people and the complaints aimed at the gay community’s win for marriage only further demonstrate that. Don’t try to pass these things off as trivial.
I will also add that I’ve seen enough trans-hostility here from certain members toward this blog and gays, in general. So it’s clear that Jeffree accurately touched upon something.
Jeffree
@SweetBrandiGirl:
For people aren’t used to reading your fractured version of English, could you ask someone who’s a native speaker to translate for us? Thanks!
The first sentence was very hard to navigate. Why can’t Monica Roberts have a “change”? Will even you be “excepted” at the “boarder”?
If you had a point there, it got buried. Or the lack of punctuation ate it for brunch
I’m sorry to hear that Brandi Parker got banned from posting over at yet another website for multiple TOS issues. Oops! Don’t they know that a free spirit like you needs as many places as possible to vent her fears?
missanthrope
@TheRealMannequinAdam:
Really? I mean, I could be every other comment writer in this page under a dozen or more sock puppets and you wouldn’t know it.
I’m always puzzled by this “gay vs. trans” dialogue that seems to take place on the internet. This doesn’t happen in my local community amongst my cisgender queer friends or my trans (gay or straight) friends. We don’t talk about who belongs in the “LGBT” or who’s rights are more important because it’s pretty much left unsaid that we all deserve equal rights and we all get discriminated against for similar or the same reasons.
And I live in a pretty small, conservative LGBT community also.
And if you’d looked at Pam’s House Blend, it’s always the same people, saying the same damn thing over and over again, like a broken record (and that could apply here at queery too).
In the end, I think that these conversations are taking place between a self-selected group of blowhards who seek each other out to argue on the computer all day because they have an axe to grind and nothing better to do.
Jeffree
@Missathrope: I have been visiting both those websites almost daily for over 2 years. How about you? Do you read those too?
I know IRL approximately 5-6 people who identify as Trans, 2 others who are questioning.
You and I have known each other for at least a year: so I hope you know that I’m some random troll here.
When you read discussions like those over at PHB or BP, how do *you* feel?
missanthrope
@TheRealMannequinAdam:
And you say that about fellow human beings? Ranking them by “priorities’.
Do you have no shame in saying that?
TheRealMannequinAdam
@missanthrope: No, I wouldn’t know it, but the issues raised would still be the same.
And I have seen these issues raised a number of times across other blogs, and in trans studies, in general.
Jeffree
@missanthrope: my response is being held in “moderation” but the short answer is 6 IRL. & I read both those s1tes daily plus 4 others. (for about 2-3 yrs)
TheRealMannequinAdam
@missanthrope: Shame? No, because I don’t personally believe it.
It’s unfortunate that that’s the way Gay, Inc. functions. I thought I made that clear.
I also think it’s unfortunate that some members in the trans community would tar a great civil rights win for all sexual minorities by taking cheap shots at its importance.
missanthrope
@Jeffree:
Okay that’s fair Jeffree. I’ll just say that in my experience in being in the trans community is that in my experience the opinions of people at those specific blogs, or many blogs trans in general
@TheRealMannequinAdam:
I wouldn’t doubt it, I’ve seen the issues raised in the trans community, but the hard-line, separatist or anger-ridden anti-gay* rants that you sometimes see in the blogosphere doesn’t usually reflect upon the internal discussions of the trans community. So my larger point is that these debates usually don’t reflect the day-to-day discussions of the people I know IRL. People seem to just want their rights and be left in peace whether you define it under LGBT or not, that’s what people have told me what’s important to them.
*And yes, I’ve seen some amount of homophobia expressed by some trans people, usually in people over 40 or 50.
missanthrope
@Jeffree:
Okay that’s fair Jeffree. I’ll just say that in my experience in being in the trans community is that the opinions of people at those specific blogs, or many blogs trans in general don’t match up with the opinions I’ve seen expressed by my friends and contacts.
@TheRealMannequinAdam:
I’m glad to hear that you don’t believe that, I apologize to you since I misread it as a statement of opinion.
But yeah, you’re right that is the attitude of Gay Inc., that’s why Gay Inc. has to be either changed or replaced with a grassroots movement.
“I also think it’s unfortunate that some members in the trans community would tar a great civil rights win for all sexual minorities by taking cheap shots at its importance.”
I do too. But if you read Monica’s article it was about taking the New York trans community to task for griping about the lack of action and not gearing up for one last push. Which is something that I will admit the trans community do enough of (self-examination). But for all of the bloggers out there taking cheap shots, there are at least a couple of trans people like me who are crying in joy over this.
And I want to thank the new management of Queerty for their firm statement of support also.
Jeffree
@missanthrope: The Trans people I know best are from my involvement with 1) adoption/adoptee rights 2) stand up comedy, where I associate with a good mix of LGBTcomics as we wôrkshop, practice & perform material.
What I see online is a lot of infighting that I don’t see among my friends: perhaps this is due to our shared interest in other issues & the fact that we’re talking face to face.
Ganondorf
@missanthrope:
So you have your finger on the pulse of the internal discussions of the trans community, do ya? You’re their official ambassador? You know what I think is transphobic? Transitions lenses. It’s just bigotry.
@WillBFair:
So basically, “I’m old and frightened by modern times! Everything’s moving so fast and I naps. Ahhhh!” That about sum it up?
missanthrope
@Ganondorf:
“So you have your finger on the pulse of the internal discussions of the trans community, do ya? You’re their official ambassador?”
I’m just conveying my experience has been and that it hasn’t been in line with what the internet noise machine has publicized. If you can come up with evidence where I’ve said that my experience reflects the greater experiences of all trans people, you’ve welcome to present it.
Sweetbrandigirl2004
@Jeffree: Despite what you may think Jeffree Brandi was banned not for “multiple TOS issues for simple over one post and because the moderators at the other blog were bullied by the transgender horde into giving her the boot. This blog which will remain nameless will end up catering to the transgender horde just as PHB does and will soon be a hive for ticked off trannie’s lets just hope they don’t have knife’s. The other blog which shall remain nameless has chosen to cater to the transgender community only not wanting to hear contrasting opinions. Or opinions that vary from, their MEME. The fact that you bring it up here show your lack of maturity when it has nothing to do with this blog or the subject being discussed and is an attempt on your p[art to start and flame war, likely you have nothing better to do.
Laughriotgirl
@Jeffree:
I have a comment directed at you in moderation… it was kinda long… but I think we could have a good conversation once it gets approved 🙂
TheRealMannequinAdam
@missanthrope: No apologies necessary. That comment was unclear as written.
rosepink
@Ted B. (Charging Rhino): Wow. Really? That’s depressing to hear.
I mean, honestly, I think most people I know are so disaffected by the gay white male version of the queer community that seems to get so much play in the media that they are losing hope.
I guess I don’t see marriage as anything that affects me as a queer who doesn’t want to get married, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t think it should exist if other people want it. I just think non-discrimination in employment, healthcare, and more basic civil rights for everyone in the queer community are a little bit more important. I mean, transgender people have been killed in my state with virtually no repercussions in the last few years. So I don’t know that I think marriage is the legislative change that defines us when we are still losing members of the community.
Prima Facie
Regardless the fact that GENDA did not pass relegates trans individuals to second-class citizenship while LGBs are now 100% first-class.
lemon-lime
@Jeffree: I think you hit the nail on the head when you said this isn’t a zero-sum game.
It’s an inappropriate time to talk about the progress we have yet to make on behalf of trans persons. I understand that we can’t ever lose sight of the full breadth and scope of issues affecting all GLBT persons, but to raise this issue at a time like this only comes off as sour grapes.
This marriage bill has a positive affect on all trans people, gay or straight, who want to get married. Now it doesn’t matter what their gender is on their birth certificate or legal documents. Everyone can get married, no questions asked.
After we are done celebrating this huge (!!!) victory for the gay rights movement, then it is time to talk about what is next.
Laughriotgirl
@lemon-lime: I guess the question then becomes when is the party over? Seems like the party in MA has been about 10 a decade long, 22 if you want to count job and housing protections.
Why is it that me, as a trans woman, saying “Great that marriage passed, to bad basic protections that were introduced at the same time didn’t pass. I have rather conflicted feelings about that”… is “sour grapes”?
And, while it probably shouldn’t be a zero-sum game… apparently it is.
Mark
@Ted B. (Charging Rhino): Gender Expression IS a LGBTQ/ Gay/ and Straight issue! Gays and Straights face discrimination all the time because they are too butch or too feminine – protecting everyone based on their gender identity and expression should be important to all of us.
lemon-lime
@Laughriotgirl: Timing is everything… It’s important to celebrate victories or you risk alienating/burning out ones allies. Agree with you on MA, the party is over there and it’s time to get things done, but this story was specifically about NY Marriage vs. GENDA.
I think the most important reason it seems like Sour Grapes is that it gives the impression that the momentum from passage of Marriage cannot be used to further the trans agenda and get GENDA passed.
Positive, not negative. Forwards, not backwards. For many non-trans GLBT people, marriage is a much more tangible, personal right. I think the more of the more mainstream GLBT rights issues you see moved out the way, the easier it will be to stir up support from allies in the GLBT community who will no longer see trans rights as a distraction from more personal goals.
Perhaps it is selfish, but that appears to be the reality of it.
As someone from MD who thought this would be the year gay marriage would pass, there wasn’t any issue that could have distracted me from something so personal to me. I’m in the same boat. Next year, there is hope!
Prima Facie
@lemon-lime
More tangible? what’s more tangible than basic protections and rights? more tangible than the mere ability to hold down a god damned job so you can stop living on the streets? More tangible than protection from a whole gaggle of folks who would like nothing more than for you to be dead? No it’s pointless to gain rights if it leaves a whole slew of people out in the cold. Who’s to say that if GENDA had passed ONE more person might live, One more person might be able to provide for themselves or for there family. Any victory that comes from at the cost of another is pointless.
lemon-lime
@Prima Facie: It’s more than tangible to trans persons. I am talking about non-trans GLBT allies for whom marriage is an issue with more personal relevance. I don’t pretend that it’s not selfish. I still fail to understand why those in favor of GENDA are trying to frame this as a zero-sum game. The victory we achieved last week only enhances the chances of GENDA becoming a reality not that Marriage is no longer a distraction for allies. I am sure a good number of activists were already working tirelessly on both issues.
Let me put it this way: You’re framing the argument as if you’d have preferred *neither* GENDA *nor* Marriage passed than have Marriage pass and GENDA not. That is the very definition of bitterness.
Jeffree
Subjects that I admit to being woefully unclear about, here & other threads, are my own priorities:
Here goes: I value employment protections for LGBT people over marriage equality.
I celebrated the win for marriage equality in NY because I saw it as a bipartisan effort to break the streak of “wins” that NOM & related orgs have had in CA, MD, MN & other states whose abbreviations I can summon up at the moment.
I hope to marry a (specific) man someday, in fact.
That said, I realize that I —like the people who chose to adopt & raise me as their own— won’t sleep easy until we collectively “make
a difference that makes a difference.”
GENDA in NY state needs to and should get passed. It’s a populous state, and could tip the trend like marriage equality did.
If there’s something that *I* can do, as a non-NYer, to help with GENDA passing next session —somebody, anybody, say the word. Share the details about who to call, write, text, & I will gladly tweet, FB, & call. And I will use my powers of persuasion, my pulpit & my pen [digital interface!] to get the message spread.
Laughriotgirl
The issue, for me, isn’t that marriage passed and GENDA didn’t. It’s a bittersweet victory to be sure, but a victory – and a HUGE one. The issue that I brought up in a post that seems to be moderated into nothing is…
The absolute silence from everyone in NY once GENDA went to the Senate – with the same level of support as marriage I’ll add. If there was a problem getting it out of committee, why weren’t people alerted to call and talk to their reps while calling for marriage? I doubt an additional sentence in the press release cycle for GENDA would have been THAT big an issue. That is the best case scenario I can think of… there was trouble in the Republican Senate and our activists forgot the basic fundamental job of paid activism… letting your people know what the heck is going on and asking for help.
Worst case scenario would be a repeat of 2002 when ESPA removed the protections that GENDA is trying to cover from the bill that has been covering gays. I seriously hope ESPA/HRC or the other national groups didn’t intentionally sacrifice GENDA to pass marriage (like they did in NH in 2009).
Laughriotgirl
@lemon-lime: “Agree with you on MA, the party is over there and it’s time to get things done, but this story was specifically about NY Marriage vs. GENDA. ”
I agree, it is past time in MA. But stuff isn’t getting done. Perhaps it’s because MassEquality stated in a March Press Release that the next big victory for the LGBT is getting to march in the St. Patricks’s Parade. S my question is.. when is the LGB party over so we can get trans stuff done? They are still driving the bus for trans equality, but the new big issue is the parade.
You talk about alienating allies – and I agree it should be avoided. But at what point does not alienating an ally become feeling like a sucker?
merle
Can’t these people let the gays have one victory and bit of happiness without bringing everybody down with their incessant carping? As a matter of fact, because of the insistence of an all-inclusive ENDA, gays have sacrificed progress on this issue for years, at the state level as well as the federal. So who’s throwing who under a bus?
Alphabet Soup
This is what happens when all this stuff is lumped together. I hate to break your rainbow colored glasses, but as time progresses, we’re going to see further divisions along these lines. Hell, even gay men alone can’t be lumped all together yet they’re served by organizations and a media that says to be a gay man = x, at the exclusion of those who don’t fit their own narrow stereotype. I think Monica is right and trans-persons etc. need to start looking out for themselves. We’re not as much this “community” as everyone likes to think we are. In an increasingly post-gay society (just talk to anyone under 30), the need to band together as associated (but ultimately separate) groups will slowly erode away.
Shannon1981
OK, for one, I think we need to be CELEBRATING Marriage Equality in New York. End of story there.
However, I think we are all well aware that we, the LGB’s are miles behind our trans brothers and sisters. Also, the gender identity issue doesn’t just apply to trans people. I am a rather androgynous gender bender myself. I have had trouble at jobs over that. This isn’t just a trans issue.We really need an all inclusive no discrimination act that includes gender identity, not just for the trans community, but for all of us.
That being said, I think the entire movement needs to focus not just on marriage, but on securing protections against discrimination of any kind based on orientation or gender identity. I also think it would be helpful if trans people would get out and educate not just straight people, but LGB’s as well on trans issues. There is just as much transphobia and ignorance in the gay community as with straight people, and that is pretty disgusting, considering our own queerness.
That being said, dumping on us for getting another state where we can get married does no one any good.
JAW
@rosepink: I am one of the Gay white men that you hate… I, and my friends are not Queer. We, as well as many white Lesbians, give plenty of time and money to groups that support our ideas. We also give time and money to support projects for other LGBT causes, esp. for youth in peril.
Some of our money also goes to support Trans groups and Trans rights. Most of us do not have to worry about being seen as too butch, too fem or too anything. Most of us do not do drugs, get drunk and party till dawn every weekend. Most of us do not dress outrageously and look like two dollar whores and sluts.
How many of your gay white friends are dissatisfied? Or are most of your friends Trans?
Watching the news coverage of the NY Marriage fight, I saw many people that looked like me… By that I mean, regular people both male and female. People of color and different ethnic heritages and nationalities.
I saw very few, if any people that I could identify as Trans. I think that the reason for that is, That the Trans people that I know are Transsexual. They are F2M and have many of the same issues that I have with mostly the TG’s that are M2F.
Many people have said to me that the concerns that they have with the Trans community is with those that see themselves as Trans Gender M2F’s. They seem to be the most vocal and most demanding. They also are the most visible. Many of the young TG’s are the ones that look like Two dollar street whores. Most Transsexuals and Transvestites that I know wish the Tgirls/Trannies were not so vocal and visible.
My point is not to piss people off. My point is just to share my feelings and those of others that I know
Zoe Brain
Most of them must have been straight, because it’s always obvious when someone’s gay, isn’t it? I saw very few people who looked like they belonged in the Folsom Street Fair. All gays look like that, don’t they? I mean, you walk down the street, and you can tell every gay man you see because of their outrageous dress and BDSM gear.
Sorry, forgot the <sarcasm> tags.
JAW
@Zoe Brain:
Exactly my point… my response to “rosepink” (response #30) was to say just what you did… I am tired of Gay white males being vilified for being who we are. We look like most other people… (or perhaps they look like us)
Many of us know what we wear to Folsom St is not what we wear to Wall St. If your gaydar is working, it can be easy to pick us out. Sounds like you have been to a BDSM Street event… so you know that the straight folks have been going there for years. You know that they also know when to wear their gear… and when Not too.
Well said… Thanks for helping to make my points!!!
Cerise
“Did NY LGBs Win Marriage By Throwing Trans-Friendly GENDA Under The Bus?”
God, I hope so. We have done huge damage to gay rights by redefining ourselves as something called “LGBT” and giving priority to exotic issues that have nothing to do with gay people. The #1 reason we do not have federal job protection is because our so-called leaders feel compelled to stuff “gender identity” into a gay bill, even though it is made clear to them that doing so means certain defeat. Our groups today now spend a lot of their time focusing on where “transitioning transsexuals” make poopy while at work. If this issue affects more than 12 people in the whole country, I’d be amazed. And 11 out of those 12 people would be straight.
Maybe Ts need to get the message that the era of LGBT is coming to an end and if it takes defeating “GENDA” for that message to get through, then so be it.
Laughriotgirl
@Cerise: Interesting how you have an opinion on this issue and nobody gay will challenge it – yet what would happens when a trans person makes the same observations, and can produce a list of legal and cultural victories that the LGB used “T” as a sacrifice to attain.
I’ll see your federal law, that had more sponsors the year it was first introduced the trans inclusion than any point in history. That federal law that wouldn’t have even been signed by the President anyway.
I’ll see that and raise you 1.5 state marriage laws, 5 state job protection, laws and historical revision. Things that the LGB has and used trans people to obtain.
I have every reason to suspect that I’ll be the one singled out to prove what I say and called divisive and pointed out as a reason for the T to go away… such is life.
AFruit4Thought
@Laughriotgirl: I was worried about this with the marriage equality fight in New York. Once we have anti-bullying protections, DADT repeal, and marriage equality, I think that the LGB’s are going to drop out of the queer fight. Trans folks helped us pass these protections and are helping us win the rest. It’s only fair to help them out, too.
If LGB’s want human rights, they should prepare to fight for T’s, too – regardless of whether you think the transgender community is part of the “gay” community. Can’t we show some compassion and realize that EVERYONE deserves the same rights and liberties? That’s what we argue all the time, isn’t it?
@Mark: I agree that gender expression is an LGB issue, too. A “transgender” issue that I’ve been working on is a transit company’s refusal to remove sex markers from transit passes. Sure, trans people are complaining about it. Plenty of lesbians have also complained because they’ve had a hard time for looking too masculine. Challenging heteronormative gender expression benefits both the LGB and the T side of the queer community.
We also need anti-bullying protections for feminine-acting boys – that’s been seen as a “gay” issue. How many gay kids have been called sissies or pansies or faggots for acting too feminine? Is that not the definition of gender expression discrimination?
Laughriotgirl
@JAW: I think your F2M buddies may want to talk to their own F2M community – most of the support online and off I see for TG anything comes from trans men, not TG cross dressers or whatnot… but mostly trans guys.. rather trans-masculine spectrum (as they prefer) who like chicks, pass mostly as male, but want to chill at the lesbian bars and be “queer women” when they wanna.
You perhaps those F2Ms need to do some house cleaning also.
the crustybastard
@WillBFair: It goes back thirty years, when the word gay wasn’t good enough for us. No. Lesbians had to have their own name. Then bisexuals. Then trans people.
Your stupidity never fails to amuse, WillBDumb.
JAW
The F2M’@Laughriotgirl:
The F2M that I know are Gay men, as I am. They enjoy life outside of the Trans Drama. They like me do put our money where our mouth is. We support LGBT causes and candidates.
Since I am Gay… I do not spend much time on trans sites. Let alone straight Trans sites.
Queerty seems to have mostly M2F TG’s responding to the posts.
Or am I wrong… and most of the Trans folk are not M2F TG’s???
Laughriotgirl
@JAW: I have no idea about the people who post here, since Queerty had such a crap reputation about reporting trans stuff (as well as unchallenged transphobia as evidenced by some of the stellar comments above) that I stopped reading it some time ago and only recently decided to give it another shot.
I’d still suggest that your buddies talk to other F2Ms – if only to recognize that the F2M scene isn’t quite so drama free – it’s just happening on women’s/ lesbian sites and in lesbian clubs and on trans guy sites. Just a suggestion.
JAW
@Laughriotgirl:
Perhaps the trans gender F2M are are hanging out at lesbian bars as female… but the Woman’s bars that I know of are not “extremely” welcoming to men… the feminists
do not like men around.
And Why would anyone in their right mind, who is happy with who they are, go looking for drama??? That is the BIG issue with soooo many of the Trans people here on Queerty… They cannot live life happily with out Drama… And their Drama is what makes the LGB folks unwilling to give full support.
Evan
@Laughriotgirl: How much power do you really think gay trans men have over straight ones and transmasculine women? Being a minority (gay) of a minority (male) of a minority (transsexual) of a minority (TG/TS) of a minority (LGBT)…we’re in some serious bastion of social power and privilege here.
Gay trans men don’t even feel comfortable going to trans events because they’re just so heavily dominated by lesbians, lesbian culture, lesbian thought, and lesbian sexuality, and we spend so much time just explaining and re-explaining that yes, we’re actually gay, and we like men, with cocks, and no, we don’t want to sleep with transmasculine women, and no, we’re not pansexual, and no, that doesn’t make us transphobic or self-hating. Oh, and we’re not transmasculine, and we’re not somehow less male than transmasculine women just because we sleep with men and many of us aren’t super butch.
It’s quite exhausting, and there’s no time for actual politics, and even if there were, if we did try to clean house we’d get shouted down because the “community” is completely dominated by queer women and men steeped in queer women’s culture. Completely. Even most of the gay-identified trans men in the so-called “community” are former queer women who sleep with each other and still hang out with lesbians.
By necessity, we’ve mostly just blended in with other gay men and done our LGBT activism from the ‘G’ side. It’s only in the last couple years that we’ve started connecting with each other and forming our own online communities and our own politics. And at the moment those tiny communities are still in the “wow, I’m not completely alone” discovery phase. If you’re waiting for gay trans guys to do the housecleaning, you’ll be waiting a long, long time. Check back after gay cis guys have solved the hetero rape problem.
Laughriotgirl
@JAW: “And Why would anyone in their right mind, who is happy with who they are, go looking for drama??? That is the BIG issue with soooo many of the Trans people here on Queerty… They cannot live life happily with out Drama… And their Drama is what makes the LGB folks unwilling to give full support.”
That’s a fair point. I’m not sure what you are calling “drama” though. Is it Monica’s linked article? Is it the dust ups that happen when one person will assert who is and isn’t properly transsexual? Both? Other stuff? Is this much different than some of the discussions that happen among gay men?
Laughriotgirl
@Evan: Evan, I hope you weren’t reading my reply to JAW as a directive for gay trans guys to fix stuff in trans male/masculine communities. Because, I def. fell you on what you said about the larger trans male community.
I did stick my foot in it with my initial response that assumed that the F2M folks JAW was talking about were trans men who date women. Since you pointed out many of the issues I was alluding to when he implied that much of the trans* drama was coming from “TG” people who were mostly M2F. I was simply trying to point out that plenty of F2M folks have and create their own dramas, but it is happening in other places.
Again, I understand TOTALLY your position. particularly about doing activism as a gay man rather than a trans man who is gay. I am far less likely to be out as trans in an LGBT setting than I am at the supermarket. I get more work done with fewer questions/assumptions/and calls to “prove it” if I’m just a straight gal who supports LGBT rights.
JAW
@Evan:
Evan… Your opening statement has me confused… “How much power do you really think gay trans men have over straight ones and transmasculine women?” I am not sure what the term Transmasculine means. I did not find a good definition when I looked it up. I do not want to assume and be wrong. Terms in the Trans community seem to change often
My other question is about the issues that others have with you when you go to Trans events. Do you identify differently then most others at the events?
I try to understand where trans people are coming from. I like many males and females do not truly understand what Transsexuals go through. Transgender people seem to have completely different issues, concerns and attitudes as their TS sisters and brothers.
Evan
@JAW: It’s really complicated. Basically, the category of “people who were assigned female at birth and identify in some way with the ‘T’ in LGBT” contains probably thousands of different identities. Some identify as men, some as androgyne, some as genderqueer, some as Butch, some as Two-Spirit, some as drag kings, some as various other things, and some consider themselves women or female in addition to those other things.
“Transmasculine” is a term coined to try to fold all of us into one basket, including both those who identify as male and those who identify as female, based on the assumed fact that the two things that bind us together are masculinity and female-assigned bodies. It doesn’t work for me or for a lot of other transsexual men (particularly gay ones) because we are men, and as men, we’re *not* all particularly masculine; some aren’t even particularly masculine by women’s standards. So I typically only use it to refer to people in the T community who identify as women or female and who consider themselves ‘T’ because of their masculine gender presentation or their drag performance, although others will unfortunately use it to apply to all of us.
As for whether I identify differently: Well, I’m gay and male. I’m not transmasculine, genderqueer, lesbian, pansexual, straight, a drag performer, butch, androgynous, Two-Spirit, a female man, a lesbian man, a ‘transfag’, a ‘trannyfag’, a boi, or anything else. I also don’t identify as a ‘transman’ (trans man is fine – it’s complicated, but basically there’s a group of trans guys who don’t feel comfortble calling themselves “men” who have taken “transman” as an identity term, and I’m not one of them). And I don’t really feel like “transgender” applies very well to me as someone whose gender identity/expression as a man is in line with his male sex identity, but that’s a fairly minor issue – I think it’s OK as an umbrella term.
But my current identity isn’t really the source if the clash. It’s the fact that I, and it seems most others who share my identity, presented as “straight” (in some cases “girlfag”) pre-transition, date and have always dated mostly or only non-trans men, and have no connection to the lesbian/queer women’s community other than the ordinary friendships any gay man might have. Culturally, that leaves us feeling very much like outsiders. There’s nothing quite like having someone who tells you his identity is “transfag” telling you that “penises are gross.”
@Laughriotgirl: I think I get what you’re saying now 🙂
missanthrope
@merle:
It’s funny that you’re asking people to accept less-than-equal rights when I’m sure you’d would be outraged if someone told you that Domestic Partnerships, you told that that gays demanding marriage rights was just “carping”
Laughriotgirl
@Evan: Glad I could clarify that, and apologies again to you and JAW about assuming te sexuality of JAW’s F2M friends.
I’d also like to thank you for talking about your experience as a gay man who is also trans. I think it is interesting to compare perspectives and also see how non-trans people perceive different trans populations.
I’d also like to second your comment about the “trans community” often being very lesbian-centered with little room for gay trans men or straight trans women. This scene can be rather alienating and exclusive… maybe we can get our people together and I can realize my dream of being a trans fag trans hag 😉
JAW
@Evan:
WOW… and the Trans community wonders why we do not always understand, or perhaps support them.
I appreciate your effort at trying to help me… but I am even more confused. I now see why there are so many issues among Trans people. I have a hard time supporting someone/something that I do not understand….
I understand the concept of M2F and F2M Transsexuals… Those that have had the operation etc and have changed from their birth gender.
I also get Transgender… Those that live 24/7 as the opposite of their birth gender, without the operation. Some of the trans gender people are the ones that I, and I think many others, have issues with. Some of them dress “sometimes” and many dress pretty outrageously when they do dress. The sometimes Trans gender M2F seem to be the ones that create issues for many in the LGBT community.
I got Transestites years ago… before they were Forced to change their name to cross Dressers because they pissed off some of the M2F Transgender people. Transvestites are those, mostly straight men, who like to dress as the opposite gender. Some do it in public, others in private. Some do complete makeovers others just certain articles of clothing.
You had drag Queens and Kings in your list… Every drag Queen that I know (and I know many) is an entertainer. they are not trans at all. As with any group, I am sure that some of the Drag Queens/Kings are also trans. But I would bet that 90% or more are not.
So I guess my issues will not change… I do not know where you started, or where you are now… I gather that you F2M Trans sexual, Transmasculine. If the Trans community wants the LGB and Straight communities help, They need to make it easier to understand who you all are.
Thomas M.
I am glad that gay people are getting yet another illustration of the poisonous, unbalanced mob to which we have linked ourselves when we accepted the fake concept of LGBT.
Trans activists are truly nasty people, not so different from the folks at FRC and NOM that we fight every day. They degrade us every day. Check out this trans site called ENDAblog. It is supposed to be about ENDA, the gay rights law that died b/c our leaders insisted on including gender identity. But what it really is is an anti-gay hate site. Here’s an entry mocking the beautiful Daily News front page on the day marriage equality passed. http://endablog.wordpress.com/2011/06/26/no-news-here/
They demanded that we change our name and our identity and we stupidly agreed. They express no warmth or gratitude but instead use their new phony status as a member of the “LGBT family” to demand that we subordinate everything to their own bizarre list of issues – from transsexual bathroom issues to taxpayer funded hormone therapy. All of this inevitably sends the message to gay and lesbian youth that to be gay means to be in conflict with one’s own gender. As if they didn’t have enough negative messages to deal with.
But even when we sacrifice our name and our identity and our civil rights for them, they express nothing but contempt and issue more demands. Most recently, they have taken to demanding that a quota system be set up so that trannies can be guaranteed seats on the boards of directors of gay, um, sorry “LGBT” groups. Of course, these same trans activists maintain trans-only organizations which focus solely on trans issues and which have no LGB leaders. Basically, what’s theirs is theirs and what’s ours is theirs too.
This isn’t a community; it is a robbery, a hijacking, and a lie.
Thomas M.
For those of you who don’t know, “Missanthrope” is also a blogger known as “Dyssonance” the perfect example of the anti-gay reactionary that we have tied ourselves to when when we accepted LGBT.
On his blog, he:
– Admitted that he beat up his own mother and then joked about it
– Admitted that he came close to assaulting his own son
– Fantasized about breaking the nose of a lesbian and committing other acts of violence against gay people who offended him in one way or another
Oh, and he’s running for Congress.
This is the kind of trans activist who would lecture gay people about their morality and their priorities.
Laughriotgirl
@Thomas M.:
ENDA – your characterization of ENDA is a lie, or rather not based on any actual facts. When ENDA was introduced as an inclusive bill, it had more sponsors than at any other time in history. ENDA 2007 – the one that dropped trans protections and failed anyway would not have been signed by the President. It was a symbolic bill to get people talking about discrimination, which oddly ended up being an example of discrimination.
Given the fact that trans people were and are active participants in the movement, that trans people have routinely been used as examples of gay people in history, trans women have testified in front of every legislature in the US that has tried to pass job protections providing compelling stories of discrimination – even in the states that ended up not protecting those women or their compelling stories. One could actually say that LGBT was a simple admission of the truth.
Funny you should claim that trans people make gay kids feel like the being gay is having a conflict with gender. Because, I’m pretty tired of gay men insisting that I’m “just a gay man” and that the reason I transitioned was because being gay was so tough (what a laugh).
The single national TRans rights group is headed by a woman who is trans and lesbian. The legal council for the group and board member is Lisa Motett – who is lesbian and not trans. I don’t know a single trans state-level group that has an exclusively trans board or staff… I can name plenty of LGBT groups that have no trans representation at all, yet claim to speak for trans people (unless you would like to educate me on trans groups that are exclusively trans).
ENDABlog… so providing documented proof that ESPA has a history of using trans people to pass gay-only laws is “hate”? Interesting way you view “hate”.
But, you know, it’s trans people who are being divisive and poisonous… stay classy
Evan
@JAW: Yeah, I’m FTM transsexual. I’m *not* transmasculine, although other people will call me that and I can’t really do anything about it.
And all that stuff confuses me too. I really wish we could just throw out all the “gender” stuff…just go to full-blown “everybody is equal and no sort of behaviour or self-expression or clothing is off-limits or transgressive just because of your physical sex.” Do that and poof, the whole ‘T’ disappears except for transsexuals and people with a full-time gender identity conflict. But sadly, I can’t wave a magic wand and make that happen.
Syl
As a transwoman and a lesbian, I was happy that NY recognized marriage equality. I understand that people have limited time and energy, that marriage has been made a priority issue. I don’t resent that, and indeed, getting nationally-recognized gay marriage would be beneficial to the trans community: people like myself wouldn’t have to wait to change our official gender until we’ve married our same (desired) sex, nor will we feel guilty for taking advantage of “straight” privilege to get a fully-legal marriage while our cisgender LGB friends are stuck with, at best, state marriage only.
I understand also that we’re “weirder”. It’s one thing to be a dude who likes dudes, or a chick who likes chicks. It’s another to be mentally female but physically male (or the reverse), and go through all the expense and pain to make the body conform to the mind. It’s a harder sell to the inbred knuckle-draggers, religious types, and bitter old people in Middle America. Just as the gay rights movement had to put forward more acceptable, conventional, less-explicitly sexual depictions of gays and lesbians, so too have we, the odd men and women out, been pushed under the rug to make the movement more palatable. And that’s good, don’t get me wrong. Sometimes you need a stalking horse. It’s been easier to get pot legalized by emphasizing medical marijuana for AIDS and cancer patients than arguing for flat out legalizationg; people saw that it didn’t lead to anarchy and gun battles over fritos shipments, and so they were more congenial to other arguments. Maybe that’s how it’ll have to be with us: first, repeal of DOMA and nationally-recognized marriage equality, THEN we get protected from being fired, denied medical care, or kicked out of our apartments just for being who we are!
There is a sad degree of animosity among the LGB for us Ts. And some commenters on here are saying such things as “trans rights aren’t a gay issue”. Wrong. Human rights are an issue for everyone. And not only are many transgendered people also gay or bisexual, but even the straight ones challenge, by their very existence, traditional sexual and gender norms, just as you all do. Our enemies are your enemies and for the same reasons, and your goals are our goals. And, plus, sometimes the lines are very blurry. Extremely femme gay, bisexual men, very butch women, genderqueer, androgynes, transvestites, it’s hard to say where “L” and “T” or “G” or “B” and “T” stop and start.
ENDA wouldn’t just protect us, it’d protect any LGBT in any state where they don’t already have protections for queers in work, housing, medical care and public facilities: That’s most states, fyi.
Thomas M.
@Laughriotgirl”
ENDAblog is a hate blog. Nearly every post attacks gay people or debases some individual by name, often in the most vulgar terms. The specific page I linked to shows it taking a beautiful event, one of the most important events in gay rights history, and turning it into a joke. Now, the author of this hate blog has every right to say whatever he or she wants. But gay people should know about it so that they don’t continue to believe that hijackers and scam artists are their “brothers and sisters”.
I don’t know if you have a clue as to how statutes are passed. You keep mentioning that gays “use” some unnamed aspect of trans history as a way to succeed in gaining gay rights. Gay rights laws are not passed because some statistics include trans people or because some witnesses at a public hearing are trans. The burden is on gay rights groups to show there is a problem worth remedying, but there is no statistical threshold at which the law passes or fails. Adding some trans-related stories or stats makes no difference and is vastly outweighed by the liability of trying to impose federal regulations on something as amorphous and vague as gender identity. By all means, take whatever stats or stories you think are being used by gays. Take them all and go fight your bathroom issues yourselves.
You are deluded about ENDA. The number of co-sponsors is irrelevant. What matters is whether it will pass. And 3 times now – 2004, 2007,and 2009 – we have been told explicitly that it will pass as a gay rights law but it will not pass if we insist on including “gender identity”. And sure enough, when HRC insisted that it include gender identity, it was quietly sent back to a committee, supposedly for a few weeks of marking up, but never to be heard from again.
I don’t know how it could be any clearer, but you and your trans mob really don’t give a damn about protecting your gay “brothers and sisters” from discrimination. The lie of “LGBT” is directly responsible for the loss of ENDA and there needs to be an accounting for that.
Laughriotgirl
@Thomas M.: Have you ever done any work trying to pass legislation? Look there are different parts to presenting the case for passing a law. Need must be established (people need job and housing protection). Statistics are presented to show that the need can be backed up by verifiable sources. Then the act of winning the “hearts and minds” by providing a face and a story to flesh out the stats. All the time members of the public are encouraged to tell their representatives how they would like them to vote. You are really telling me that the number of sponsors of a bill isn’t important… seriously??
In MA, NY, NH, MD, (both job protections and hate crime laws) statistics presented to represent “gay men” included trans women for hate crimes. ESPA usaed 3 trans women to testify in 2002 to pass an inclusive ENDA that was changed 2 days before to drop trans people. ESPA then lobbied to stop an amendment in the Senate to re-include trans people by Tom Duane (first openly HIV+ elected official). MA has a similar story. NH passed marriage the same day that trans job protections were unanimously voted down – even the bill’s primary sponsor voted against it.
So.. let’s do something. You get all the job and housing protections that don’t cover trans people repealed. Then get the new gay only groups to try and pass them wityhout trans people to pas the stats and tell our stories… OK? Let me know how that works.
“Take them all and go fight your bathroom issues yourselves.”
Bathroom issues… you mean that creation that has actually never happened in the 30+ years of trans public accommodations laws… but has a long and celebrated history among gay men? That bathroom issue?
Laughriotgirl
and yeah… trans people… divisive and poisonous…
and please don’t take my comments as any indication that I think the LGBT is a good idea. I just don’t think the LGB is as altruistic as you seem to think. I’m not exactly sure you really want that accounting to happen Thomas M.
JATG
Hey
I hate you, yeah i hate you too, no but i hate you more, yes but i double hate you, no wait i really triple hate you.
Grow up.
Thomas M.
The number of cosponsors does not matter. You can have lots of cosponsors for a millionaire’s tax or single payer or, on the right, for the Human Life amendment or the birth certificate disclosure act. It doesn’t matter if those measures can’t pass. In the case of ENDA, it would have passed, protecting American workers from discrimination based on sexual orientation, actual or perceived. That would have been a good thing. America would have been a better place. It didn’t happen because a small group of trans activists demanded that if gender identity could be included in that bill, then nothing should pass.
Again, while some testimony and, if available, statistical data are useful in persuading a legislative body to pass a gay rights law, they aren’t necessary. And in particular, there is no set number of stories or stats that are necessary. If 6 gay people testify at a hearing and stats are presented showing x% of gays have experienced discrimination, it isn’t going to matter if an additional trans witness could have been added or if the stats could be boosted by y% by adding trans discrimination.
In any event, you are already backtracking on your claim by shifting to hate crimes laws. On the anti-discrimination laws, I think it is highly unlikely that there were trans-related stats included in many cases if for no other reason that there were or are no trans stats. Or are you going to tell me that such stats existed for St. Paul in 1971, or the state of WI in 1982 or NYC in 1986? Doubt it. On hate crimes, I agree trans stats should not be used unless the hate crime was directed against the victim based on perceived sexual orientation. However if these stats included situations where attackers mistook their trans victims for gay, those are still valid to count as anti-gay hate crimes, as it is the attacker’s perception that matters, not the actual status of the victim. If an attacker assaults a Catholic bishop b/c he mistakes him for a cross-dresser, that is an anti-trans hate crime, not an anti-Catholic hate crime. Same principle for trans-mistaken-for-gay.
In any event, I gladly accept your offer to leave all trans-related stories and stats out if we can free ourselves from the insane asylum of trans activism.
Finally, on bathrooms: gays have never sought statutory protection to use women’s bathrooms (since we are not women and don’t want to be women) nor to have sex in bathrooms. So we have no bathroom issues on Capitol Hill or in any state capital. Although I agree that trans women do not use women’s bathrooms to engage in any misconduct, and while I personally have absolutely no problem with trans people going in whatever bathroom they want, it isn’t a gay issue and it certainly isn’t an issue that we should be sacrificing gay rights over. It is no more acceptable to make us sacrifice over this issue than it would be ask women or African Americans to sacrifice civil rights to guarantee a dozen trans workers the bathroom of their choice. It is only because of the lie of LGBT that it is seen as somehow acceptable to demand that gays take up this issue.
Laughriotgirl
@Thomas M.: OK then get to work on repealing every single job and hate crime legislation that passed without trans protections. Get rid of NH’s marriage law, since it is pretty clear that the trans job protections bill was sacrificed to pass it.
If the movements are going to be separated, you can’t use us to pass yours.
Danielle
For those interested parties, I would suggest taking a close look at the study released by The Task Force and National Coalition for Trangender Equality, entitled “Injustice at Every Turn”. It had one of the largest single study populations in recent memory (more than 6,000 participants) that participated in answering questionnaires online and in person over last Spring and Summer. It was published back in March.
Read the findings… then tell me that we don’t need to band together and get GENDA passed in NY or ENDA passed nationally.
Kat
Reason No. 1 why trans people demand inclusion in civil rights laws? The fact that there are gay people out there who view trans people as does Thomas M. and who get to make decisions about whether or not we have the ability work.
Marriage Derangement Syndrome got Bush re-elected in 2004 and it stands poised to deliver Michele Bachmann into the White House in 2012.
Posion?
No.
Reality.
Kat
@ Thomas M.
“The number of cosponsors does not matter.”
Then tell the Rhode Island Avenue Kaviar Klan to quit making mention of the number of co-sponsors any time that any gay-ish bill that they want to use as a money-making tool gets introduced.
Valerie Keefe
We could also mention the fact that, when it suits them, the hard right uses the cis gay and lesbian movement as useful idiots to legitimize their transphobic attitudes and policies.
The Reagan administration using Janice Raymond to commission a study that was little more than an astroturf position paper used to deny trans people treatment for more than a decade.
Barney Frank appealing to the normativity of his fellow committee members in ensuring that ENDA workplace protections wouldn’t extend to anyone but the post-operative.
And it’s interesting to note that Salt Lake City can pass a trans inclusive rights ordinance and Massachussets can’t.
And forgive me if I think what happened to Sylvia Rivera, or Sandy Stone, or Beth Elliot need no explanation.
Just remember who you’re in bed with. This dyke does.
Sarah
@ Thomas M. “Trans activists are truly nasty people, not so different from the folks at FRC and NOM that we fight every day.”
Really? =(
Sarah
Wow, I just read all the comments on this site and now I’m really sad. I can half-understand the people who are angry at what they perceive as trans people attacking them and “raining on their parade,” but the number of LGB people here who straight-up think trans people should have been excluded all along is disheartening.
For those telling us to just form our own groups: we do have them. We’re just a small and relatively poor group of people, so those organizations have zero political clout. So they’re mostly focused on providing legal aid, shelter, health care, job training, etc. to those most at risk.
Millions and millions of straight allies have helped us win these battles for marriage equality. Even if gender identity protections don’t affect you, I would hope you could be motivated by the same desire to Do the Right Thing.
Kat
@Sarah: “the number of LGB people here who straight-up think trans people should have been excluded all along is disheartening.”
Necessitating, of course, a chicken-or-egg analysis: Which came first? Trans anger? Or organized gay politico-legal exclusion of trans people?
Anyone gay and young and/or uninformed enough to think that the trans anger came first, needs to detoxify of HRC propaganda and make some effort to get educated about who has been politically screwing over who for the last 30 years.
Trans people need civil rights protections to protect ourselves from the Thomas M’s of the employment-decision-making world even moreso than we need protection from the christianist right. 31 years and HRC has had one trans woman employee? Case closed.
Roots
How quickly people forget that the entire gay rights movement was started by drag queens and bull dykes. Now that marriage equality has almost completely eclipsed all other issues in the LGBT community, gay men and lesbians are distancing themselves from transgender people (and bisexuals). Marriage equality would not exist if it were not for transgender people.
As a bisexual, I feel a special affinity for trans people as we are living on the margin of the community. The infighting has to stop. I have even been told by one trans person that they didn’t believe in bisexuality because it “perpetuates the binary.”
The right thinks we are all just a bunch of faggots anyway. I was in NYC when the legislation passed and of course I was thrilled. I don’t intend to steal the thunder. Just remember to honor the lineage of trans people who made it possible.
And
@Roots
The gays rights movement started long before Stonewall, both in Europe and in America. Read about it.
It is a myth that the movement began with Stonewall, as it is a myth that the Stonewall riots were started only by trans people. But most of all, it is irrelevant.
Even if there was no demands for gays rights before Stonewall, even if it were trans people that first started asking for gay rights… in no way would that give them the right to hijack all posterior gay and lesbian organizations.
Kat
To expedite matters (and to prevent anyone from having to think about any posteriors of any gay and lesbian organizations that they might not want to think about on an empty stomach), let me summarize the ‘argument’ made by No. 82 (And):
“Cuz we sez so!”
Elitism may have many defenders, but it has no defense.
Antonia D'orsay
@Thomas M.:
You state: For those of you who don’t know, “Missanthrope” is also a blogger known as “Dyssonance” the perfect example of the anti-gay reactionary that we have tied ourselves to when when we accepted LGBT.
Seriously?
I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask you for support of that particular statement, because its certainly news to me that I’m this “missanthrope” person. Indeed, the only reason I’m aware that this statement was made is I decided to idly check my blog (which has been defunct since late May) stats and there was a link here.
In other words, THomas M. I am, without any sort of hesitation, calling you a liar.
Furthermore, you ascribe to me certain other falsehoods that I had to laugh about. Permit me to make a few corrections to your attempt to defame me as an individual:
I never admitted, nor did I ever, “beat my own mother”. That’s two lies.
I am not anti-gay. That’s three lies.
I am not a “reactionary” — that’s four lies.
I am not a “reactionary anti-gay” — that makes five lies.
I am not a “he” — that makes for 10 lies since you did it five times.
I did not fantasize about any of the things you state. After 10 lies, you’ve done enough damage so I’ll not count these.
I am running for congress, I did at one time worry about harming my children, and I find it fascinating that you decided to make all of these statements regarding me.
As I am not commonly willing to venture to queerty, perhaps it is because you thought that you could just generally ascribe to some other person some sentiments of bias you have against me without worry of contradiction.
Oh, and a tip: there are relatively few “dyssonance”‘s out there. And even fewer people with my name. If you are going to continue to defame me, at least do it with a bit more discretion.
Oddly enough, though, you are, if I’m reading through these comments correctly, proving much of what has been said regarding the behavior of gay men as a group and in particular certain individuals towards trans folk.
If you want to defame me, at least try to use the truth — there’s enough of my shortcomings available online with a simple search that you should have plenty of ammunition without having to resort to making stuff up whole cloth.
Abirdwillingtobeitself
“I am not a “he” — that makes for 10 lies since you did it five times.”
lol
Tiffany
As a trans woman who has fought with all my might and until given reason to otherwise will continue to fight with all my might for lgb rights… I sincerely hope in my heart that most of the lgb population won’t forget The T and offer us help as well.
I honestly feel that within the next decade, perhaps sooner the gay and lesbian population will be seen as equals in virtually every way…. and for the record I think that’s great.
Some might see this as piggybacking on the backs of the gay, lesbian and bisexual population… I see it more as everyone deserving equal rights and quite frankly I’ll come out and say it… as I feel it’s the truth… I don’t think the trans population has a prayer of ever being seen as anywhere near equal legally speaking without the gay lesbian and bisexual population’s help.
While in no way trying to demean your struggles, you’ve had your fair share and I support you in that fight.. it stands to reason that society is going to be a lot quicker in accepting people who simply happen to be attracted to the same sex… when compared to a trans man or woman.
I’ll end by saying this, going to throw everyone I have into any upcoming fights you have to go through…. as are many transsexuals.
Please I implore you to do the same for us when the time comes.
Tiffany
As a trans woman who has fought with all my might and until given reason to otherwise will continue to fight with all my might for lgb rights… I sincerely hope in my heart that most of the lgb population won’t forget The T and offer us help as well.
I honestly feel that within the next decade, perhaps sooner the gay and lesbian population will be seen as equals in virtually every way…. and for the record I think that’s great, every step toward equality is a good thing.
Some might see this as piggybacking on the backs of the gay, lesbian and bisexual population… I see it more as everyone deserving equal rights and quite frankly I’ll come out and say it… as I feel it’s the truth… I don’t think the trans population has a prayer of ever being seen as anywhere near equal legally speaking without the gay lesbian and bisexual population’s help.
While in no way trying to demean your struggles, you’ve had your fair share and I support you in that fight.. it stands to reason that society is going to be a lot quicker in accepting people who simply happen to be attracted to the same sex… when compared to a trans man or woman.
I’ll end by saying this, going to throw everyone I have into any upcoming fights you have to go through…. as are many transsexuals.
Please I implore you to do the same for us when the time comes.
straightman
hahahahahha. i thought gays and trannies got along. i feel bad for the trannies. i read many of these comments and i was laughing. your all the same to me. all a bunch queers!
Brag
@WillBFair: So you’re saying being trans is the same as being gay? Wow.
Anyway, yeah, it’s always pretty depressing when a group that has faced so much discrimination and oppression decides it’ll be fun to flaunt their privilege, get defensive about it and then try to discriminate and oppress another group they feel superior to. Well done, LGB community. Now you know you’ve truly made it.
Brag
@Brag: And for the record, I busted my ass calling politicians and drumming up support/spreading the word/engaging in dialogue with people on the fence in regards to same sex marriage in New York, because I was under the — apparently mistaken — assumption that we were all allies.
Go figure.
Melissa
Next6 you you write an articel about trans life in new York, please talk to trans people in New York. We had a small window in 2010 and the Senate messed it up. I love Monica Robertss and she knows how hard we have worked on this issue.
2012 will be year 10. Come and help us lobby the GOP. trans people could use the help.