Thanks!

Fucking you up the ass.

Proposition 8 = Unconstitutional!

Why isn’t anyone checking out that clue?

Look, in the real world, minorities should not have to ask majorities for their rights. That’s what we have constitutions to address.

But, since so many have bought into the conservative mindset that we live in a mobocracy now, I am discussing the reality of what that conservative mindset means.

It means you got to go out there and ask for it. Welcome to the conservative reality. You are just lucky we are beyond the world that the founders were in when it was even worst than this with regard to asking the majority for rights. We don’t have land to move to just to get away from our opressors.

No one is going to hand it to you because you sit around pouting “they should give it to me. why should I have to ask? How dare they not give it to me. damn it.”

In the real world, that’s called being a diva. Only in gayland is it somehow suppose to happen by you sprinkling magical dust on it and bitching to the choir.

Why is it always the gay’s job to reach out to communities of color? I never see the reverse.

You’re so right. But you know something friend. My partner who is by the way Caucasian all the time says to me “Why do you read those blogs”? I tell him because I like to engage in deep conversation, which at times gets very emotional and heated. But at least it does provide responses.

And after the election I was reluctant to question him about his thoughts on Prop 8. But I did and he didn’t understand why the Gay community was seemingly blaming African Americans. He said the No on 8 was a “Johnny come lately” attempt to defeat it. Once it had enough signatures to go on the ballot they should have been out campaigning. And if they did it would have not passed.

Also to the fact that 1,000,000.00 gays in the state of California didn’t even bother to vote at all. Sad but embarrassingly true!

But that won’t be breaking news. Who wants to be embarrassed!

Please excuse this long post, but I think it’s critical to say what I am about to say. I hope you read it.

HRC is finall trying. I am not going to look down on them because of failures of the past. If things are going to change, we can not hold hold onto our baggage. Where No on 8 failed was that it failed to engage various communities, not just black. But, this failure is long term. Not sure. Thus, its one that even now needs to be corrected for 2010.

Their failure with the the black community is symptomatic of a greater problem that has plagued gay rights activists for several decades: The inability to build coalitions.

It is easy to sit back and blame faith, etc, but that’s really just a lie too. The reality is that we do not push for religious allies in the communities to speak, and when these fight come up as they did with Prop 8, we don’t have those resources upon which to draw in a coordinated way. Instead, like on Larry King, we are pit as gays against religion. Rather than those who support gay rights (including the religious) versus those who do not believe in equality.

I am not saying that we don’t have religious allies. I am saying we are not engaging them to address their religious brothers and sisters. That’s hurting gay rights.

A lot of this is just orthodoxy. Gay rights people who fought before think theirs is the only way to fight. Religion is per se against us. Black folks are per se against us. The numbers ay so. Therefore the numbers are true and immutable. This is why I like Soulforce- they understand innovation.

Dave’s posts are about stagnation. Not transformation. So are black dyke’s comments. They are about being hurt. Not about healing.

Separately, you are right about one important factor. White privilege is a big issue here. This explains a lot of the reaction to — “but if they just accept that I am gay then there wouldn’t be any problems. ” So, the emotional need overtakes the rights issue.

What many are seemingly saying is that they don’t get that this struglge is the nature of all minority groups. These struggles, even between two different minorities, always come up.

Gays aren’t unique here. We say we are like other civil rights struggle. That’s true. But guess what- those struggles were hard and took a long time. 40 years is nothing.

There is nothing that says one minority must understand another. Especially, when that minority in the characteristic being discussed- is in fact the majority. Ie, we are discussing black straights rather than black gays.

This has been historical fact for a very long time regardless of the two groups involved. What people are really saying is that becuase one is black you are suppose to not be like every other minority group.

The privilege explains the racist you see in the white part of the gay community. They secretly want to be like their straight white counterparts, and think they wold be, but-for the gay issue. So it’s not about being the minority. Or having solidarity in that status. It’s about returning to the majority. The goal is to return to the majority without us pesky gays of color to remind them that they really aren’t the majority. So, they want to ignore us. Thus, when blacks do not fall over themselves in their support- it seems to me that its really about “how dare you “the black person” not do what I ‘the white person’ want.” I would be less likely to believe that if the white gay community reached out to black folk.

I would wage this feeling is felt a lot by many of my black gay friends. They feel that really the white gays to whom you are referring when all else fails still prioritize their race over their sexual orientation. That despite all this claim of unity what they really mean is “so long as it helps just us” and not “it lifts us all, gay or straight, black or white, up.” It means just “gay white.”

This dynamic is what bothers me about the No on 8. It wasn’t just that they didn’t reach out. It was what that failure to reach out not only blacks, but religous people etc said about their views of anyone who was “other.”

The irony is that while they were asking for others to see them as acceptable, they did not in return practice what they preached. How can you fight for rights while implicitly endorsing such darkness?

I don’t mean accepting the homophobia. I mean- why didn’t we even bother to try?

This is the question that continues to bother me. I would be more concerned by the numbers if I felt No on 8 had tried. It does not excuse the numbers. But it does make sense in a human kind of way that if one side engages the voter, but the other side ignores it, then the side that engages will win.

That No on 8 didn’t try seems to be more about entrenched belief on both sides, not just one. Without this effort to change hearts and minds because No on 8 we decided it wouldn’t matter- what No on 8 proved is that our hearts and minds are equally closed.

I believe that much of that inablity to try stems in part for the white privilege you mention. That- why should we have to try when its our right, and you should just do it because…? Why? Because it’s our right. The privilge is that they believe we don’t have to work for it.

I think by the way it is fine to talk to the black community, but not as blame. Which is why folks like Dan Savage are not good spokes people, but as a chance to persuade.

The privilege comes into play when they , the gay whites, feel there is no need to persuade.

My first thought is to look at the other end- as a black guy- not just a gay one. I want to say ‘hey, wait a minute, it took centuries and decades of persausion for blacks to obtain equal status in this society” Why exactly- what part of you- believes it would be any easier for us gays?

The only thing I can think of is that its that white privilege part that does not understand the struggle. That as a minority in a society you must always be the odd man out. Not because you want to be, but because its simple truth.

That odd man out does not mean that you must feel this way socially or morally or personally. it just means politically this is just the reality. You must work for your political power more than the majority does. You must argue for your rights more forcefully than the majority does. You must organize for your rights more than the majority does.

Nate said the most important of his interview when he said No on 8 was outorganized. No struggle for civil rights will end well where the minority is out organized by the majority.

These are not things that are subject to debate. This is just historical fact. Only some sense of privilege would make you think otherwise. That you don’t have to work for it? Please. “Life is working for it twice as hard if you are black” is what my mother used to tell me growing up. I think some of the white gays needed to have heard that growing up to get the point- nothing we want is going to come easy.

That’s how I feel the situation is as we see it in too much of the gay white community. They did not experience being in the minority until they accepted their gay identity. We , as gay black folk, knew it from child hood. We have this separate voice that tells us the struggle is never easy. They do not. That’s the privilege in a nutshell.

Come on, DaveO. Let’s go…

He’s (Nate Silver)only addressing it in reference to the AA community because of the outrage that happened AFTER Prop 8 was passed and Gay Bloggers decided to BLAME THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY instead of their poor planning on how to defeat it.

So all youre doing is piggy backing what everyone else said prior by using my community and race as the whipping boy excuse for the passing of this proposition.

Like I said since you want to critize us read the link I left you before.
http://www.washingtonblade.com…../13580.cfm

Once again you are failing to understand because of your racial ignorance and YES I said RACIAL IGNORANCE. And you don’t see a post on here in reference to Asian Americans and Latino Americans because the ones who promote our PRIVILEDGE WHITE GAY COMMUNITY rather not include them. They rather run after a community that they THINK they can put blame on. But they’re about to find out it won’t be so easy and it’s going to stop.

Blame us all you want keep that racial shit mentality between you and your friends who choose to feel that way. Just like you’re inclined to blames BLACKS as a whole which is STUPID because they are BLACKS who are Gay and who voted to defeat Prop 8.

BTW,If you’re not BLACK you do not know SHIT about our race so stop with your rhertoic please. Don’t like us but trying to plan theories..PLEASE!

Some blacks as well as whites, and Latinos and Asians felt it was neccessary to pass this prop bill. So what about whites who voted for it?……QUESTION THEM!

Or do you understand why they voted for it?

RACISM in our community is so OUT THERE.
And we as a GAY people do nothing about it. Assmilation is one thing. However educating and understanding each is another. YES the Civil Rights movement was all about DEMANDING our fair share. And maybe The Gay Community on a whole scale should do the same. But all of this “Gay Is the New Black” and Being Black is just like being Gay”…SINCE WHEN?

Like someone said in another post. It’s a known fact that whites can cover up their homosexuality when applying for a job and may only need to be 80% on point to get the position. How about me I can’t cover up my skin color. Once I walk in that room that is one of the first factors (subliminally) that is noticed and on top of that I have to be 110% on point…or else!!!! it’s CURTAINS!

So if Gay is the New Black…then what in God’s name will be Black Folks????

And also I do understand that HRC sent a Black representative to Jena to cover the march. I’m not sure if they really partnered with other civil rights groups.

But The Gay Numbers don’t you think it’s time a forum is called all over the country with Gays Lesbians with regards to race to at least get the ball running?

It needs to star from somewhere. And after all of this from Prop 8 no better time than now.

Is it because they’re not confrontational and more submissive when some Gay whites make inappropriate comments towards them?

Or is it because they are the minority of choice for Gay Whites when they go outside of their race so they get a PASS card.

Just a scenario of questions……why?

Because all this shit that you and DaveO are saying is simply LUDICROUS. I mean are you not telling me that WHITE HETEROSEXUALS are not HOMOPHOBIC as well as ASIANS AND LATINO who gives a FUCK about percentages? If one of each group is HOMOPHOBIC. That is TOO MANY!

And as far as you hearing relatives saying such things……SO WHAT are Blacks suppose to be grateful in all things and not have an opinion? Its called CIVIL RIGHTS…. However it was always their right now I’m not agreeing with anything you heard your relatives say because BIGOTRY is wrong from whoever uses it!

And that also means our beloved Gay community as well. Maybe DaveO can explain why sometimes Blacks are treated funny at predominately white bars. I have never seen GLAAD, or HRC or any of those groups tackle racism in the Gay community. They just sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happens.

But we know better than that!

Nate is a stud.

How about the same ones you would use to target your message to each audience, since not one form of message fits all. And if you ignore it, then don’t be surprised with the result.

Ironically he shares a lot in common with the civilized homophobe. You know- the kind who will say “I have nothing against gays, but I don’t like when you flaunt it as a response to them denying our rights.” I imagine in Dave’s racist mind he thinks I am saying “those blacks have no homophobia.” Or the one I love is where now people will say “you shouldn’t boycott because its not the right thing to do.” If you ask them should black people have boycotted, they will argue that’s different. You can try in vain to point out the only difference is how they view sexual orientation over race.

In Dave’s mind- when I try to analysis the elements that seem more relevant to sexual orientation issues like religion, he gets confused because he thinks this means I am ignoring race. That’s the racist’s mind.

When Nate says it seems age is a bigger factor for how blacks voted, t hat’s excusing race rather than understand generational trends.

We are “excusing” homophobia that occurs in the black community rather than understanding from where he comes. Very different outlooks and points of views. His is motivated by bias, mine by thinking of where we can target solutions. This con versation has reminded me of that.

You continously assign your baggage to me and others. That’s why the conversaton with you is a waste of time. I don’t have your issue with knowing that blacks by 60/40 supported stripping away gay rights.

The difference lies in my ability to discern whether there being black was the cause or just coincidental. I can say that a persons religion is a direct cause, but race? I think just intellectual your approach doesn’t pass the logic test. Again Dave Venn Diagramm level of analysis. Not rock science here.

Basic logic: If blacks are the cause, then explain in Venn Diagram those situations in which race was taken out as a factor (a la Oregon and Oklahoma)?

What do voters in those states have in common? If it’s not race, then what? Again simple logic.

I am really begining to question after 50 some odd posts by both me and others whether you understand basic statistical analysis to have this conversation. The issue is a causation question.

Whether race caused blacks to vote by 60 percent or religion? See the point now? I am trying to get beyond blame to understanding and analyzing the numbers like Nate had done with age (ie, that older voters are going to tend to be more set in their ways is not only true of politics, but older people in geneal. Ask any marketer trying to sell a product why they go after certain demographics, but not others). Again, simple logic here.

Your refusal to even accept basic logic is why I think you are racists. I am not asking you to not have a problem with 60 percent of blacks voted as they did. I m saying let’s understand hte numbers so we can know how we can reach them.

Again, my example that a non religious black person would not reach these voters like say a religious black person would. I wouldn’t be the best spokesperson for example, because I am not Christian. I beleive in God. Just not sure of the christian doctrine.

If you still don’t get it.I give up.

It’s a bad number. But so is almost 50 percent of whites and 50 percent of Latinos who voted yes. The question is why the numbers. I leave it to the rest of you with your Ivan Trump l evel of baggage to assign blame. I am trying to figure out what information is salient to achieving the goal of giving my friends to the marry and live their lives as they see fit.

It’s better to know also from where these numbers derive than not. It’s not about your baggage or mine for that matter. It’s about figuring out strategies for how we can win. Faulty numbers and faulty understanding of numbers leads to bad strategies and bad policies.

I am not saying that race is the only factor. I am only saying that it is A factor. One of many.

Who’s not listening again?

It could be “really” 80-20 if the margin of error went in the other direction.

b) His point about the 70 percent was addressed in his discussion of MOE (margin of error), which he guestimates was probably 10 points.

So voting against gays 60-40 is ok since it isn’t “really” 70-30?