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SQUAWK BOX

FAIL: Wendy Williams And Guests Discuss Transgender Athlete, Say Literally All The Wrong Things

GTY_wendy_williams_sr_140121_16x9_992Sigh. Another transgender story hits the media, and the media handles it like a bunch of high school freshmen.

You’d think that maybe, just maybe, if you’re planning to appear on national television like oh, say The Wendy Williams Show, you’d do a little homework on the scheduled topics you’re supposedly going to bless your broadcast-worthy opinions with.

Or you could go the route of Wendy and her merry band of cis squawk boxes when they took up the subject of Chloie Johnson being denied entry into a CrossFit competition because she is transgender. A decision that science and good logic deem needlessly discriminatory.

Williams, being the expert that she is, supports Cross Fit’s decision because:

“This is an unfair advantage… you can take away female parts or male parts or whatever — it’s like Chaz Bono! You know Chaz is a man now, but I bet she [sic] still fights like a girl like the rest of us and she’s [sic] not as strong as a man who was born a man.”

Whoakay, Wendy.

Guest Joe Pardavila had his own pearls of wisdom to string onto the idiot necklace:

“Think about it. You look inside — she’s got all guy muscles, and the juices! You know, I’m not a doctor or anything but inside her that’s all there.”

No, Joe. You are most certainly not a doctor.

Why is mainstream culture still so unbelievably backwards when it comes to discussing gender issues? Rampant transphobia aside, Williams also goes out of her way to demean all women; her mostly female audience seems content to go along for the ride.

For how far we’ve come, it’s a pretty pitiful sight.

Here’s the full video. The topic comes up at the 3:14 mark:

Related stories:

Meet Five Transgender Babes Helping Pop Culture Evolve

“Real World” Houseguest Brings Transgender Discussion To Primetime MTV Audience

“Why Is It So Offensive To Just Say That Transgender Women Grew Up As Boys?”

Jared Leto Says Playing A Transgender Character Changed And Inspired Him

By:           Dan Tracer
On:           Mar 14, 2014
Tagged: , ,
  • 71 Comments
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      Cisgender (and especially heterosexual) people really have no idea what they’re talking about in a lot of cases when it comes to trans people. The issue isn’t that, really: it’s that oftentimes they refuse to learn. They’d much rather persist in being ignorant bigots than learn something new. It’s this brand of willful, oftentimes even malicious ignorance that really is the most damaging. It’s people who are too in love with their own transphobic perceptions to admit that they’re hurting real people.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 4:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • deltabadhand
      deltabadhand

      I haven’t seen any science based info that actually counters Wendy Williams claim in the first quote box. Lots of anedoctal claims that its not true –but no fact based support that it isnt. I would really like to understand why it’s not the case, but when I try to find out through questions Transgender folks take an adversarial posture instead of a discussion to clear things up.

      Also, I find the usage of “cis” offensive unless it’s been cleared as acceptable by the folks it’s being applied to. I will never find it non offense when applied to me.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 4:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @deltabadhand: Feel free to click around here: http://transathletes.org/
      Do you ask people’s permission before using “straight”? What about “white”, or “man”? Do you have an alternative to cisgender that means “comfortable within one’s assigned-at-birth gender” without saying “normal”, given that calling the opposite of trans folks normal would imply that trans folks aren’t normal?

      Mar 14, 2014 at 4:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Apparatus
      Apparatus

      Wendy is a big supporter of our community, and though she may not be the brightest (and that has never stopped her or anyone else from being LOUD lol) I think her heart is in the right place.

      Lets do try and educate her gently rather than throw her under the bus right away, please?

      Mar 14, 2014 at 5:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Harley
      Harley

      You would think being transgender himself that Wendy Williams would have a little more clarity on this issue.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Richard
      Richard

      ^^^I just snorted.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 5:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      It looks as though Joe Pardavila, based on his twitter, has made a full about-turn and is sincerely sorry for what he said. Check his twitter out, he’s being very classy about it.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 5:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wingfield
      Wingfield

      @Apparatus: I completely agree. As someone who has very little knowledge on trans information I thought the same thing as Wendy. If science says otherwise than fair enough… But she definitely shouldn’t be torn up for this.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 5:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DawnTrans
      DawnTrans

      @deltabadhand: I doubt you looked very far to find science based information on trans persons.
      I thought this was settled in 1977 when Renee Richards was allowed to play in the US open in the female division. Which btw Renee lost in the first round.
      Then again the international olympic committee has ruled post op trans ID persons will be allowed to compete as the gender they are at present.

      See you dont have to go back to far to find precedent to this outragous claim that m2f trans persons will have an advantage.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 6:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      I”m surprised this is still an issue. I had heard that there had been a transgender Tennis Player back in the 70’s. If you look up Renee Richards, the U.S. Supreme Court wouldn’t allow the U.S. Open to deny her the ability to play as a woman. She won that lawsuit way back in 1977, I’m not sure why people still have to be fighting this battle.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

      Richards was born a man, was a very good tennis player and guess what….Martina Navratilova, Chris Everett etc… STILL kicked her ass in Tennis, so it isn’t as if her birth made her come in and dominate the sport.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 6:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hagonarag
      hagonarag

      I first liked Wendy Williams but now cannot stand her, as I watched her show and witnessed her backwards politics and pearls of wisdom for her audience of eager women. What I can’t stand is how she, someone in a position to help initiate growth and transformation within society, actually perpetuates idiotic, backwards philosophies and ideologies that are sexist and immature. And her audience loves it. She throws meat to her audience and riles them up in a false commradery of being a woman, when really she is holding them back from thinking on their own and being educated. For example, she’ll say Joe Giudice should go to jail instead of Teresa because he’s the man, and then the audience will start hooting and hollering. F**king sexist. And now, we can see that she is also completely ignorant about transexuals, which doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 7:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      Well since the gay community has generally done a bang up job historically of ostracizing the transgender community no wonder heterosexual people get it wrong. I love Wendy Williams and she’s old fashioned when it comes to many things. It doesn’t make her wrong. She believes in traditional gender roles when it comes to marriage. She doesn’t want the man at the wedding or baby shower and I actually agree with her on the Giudice situation. He should take the fall and let the mother be free to care for their 4 daughters. Just because one believes in traditional gender roles doesn’t make them evil.

      Now as far as her comments on being transgender, I obviously need to do some research too because I would think the same thing in terms of an unfair advantage. That was always my assumption in terms of if I were a male transitioning to a female that I would still keep certain advantages from having been born a male. The other comment about Chaz probably still wanting to fight like a girl was ignorant though. So yes because she is on a talk show she has a responsibility to know this stuff. She is a big supporter of the gay community though so I’m not going to obliterate her on this.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 7:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Merv
      Merv

      I think it’s been pretty conclusively demonstrated that trans women on hormone therapy lose any muscle strength advantage after a certain period of time. That does raise an interesting question, though. What about trans women who didn’t want to go on hormone therapy. Would they still be allowed to compete?

      Mar 14, 2014 at 7:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @Merv: I think they could compete with the men, if they wanted to. From a muscles-and-endocrine level, those would be the people whose talents they’d be on par with. Generally speaking, though, most sporting agencies require at least one year of hormones, and many require The Surgery as well.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 7:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DanaLane
      DanaLane

      @deltabadhand: great cisplained in an article about tranphobia and transmisogyny. Cis dood.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 8:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TinoTurner
      TinoTurner

      The term “cisgender” is soooo painfully stupid. I’m at a loss for words at to why this is even a thing?
      Trans people claim they were born into the wrong bodys…ok, got it. Now…how does that make them a part of the GAY community? Gay people are happy being the sex they are, right? Gay people don’t need pills, surgery and mental health doctors to make us gay. As a hardworking, self respecting gay male, I resent that I’m being forced to be included with a group of people that have tons and tons and tons of personal/mental issues.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 8:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gauty
      gauty

      @TinoTurner: I’m a cisgendered gay guy too, and you know what? Fuck you for blatantly attributing a host of negative misinformation about the medical and mental status of trans people, you heaving pile of festering baboon diarrhea. You disgust me. What harm does it do you that you are somehow linked to trans people as both our groups are still heavily demonized and ostracized for being different? I think the trans community might find more issue with being lumped in with the G’s in LGBTQA, because unfortunately, bigoted assholes like you are NOT a rarity among gay guys. What the fuck are you even trying to imply by saying “hardworking” and “self respecting”? Suggesting that maybe trans folk are neither of these things?

      Mar 14, 2014 at 9:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      Are there any cases of f2m trans being prevented from playing in men’s sports?

      Mar 14, 2014 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlexM
      AlexM

      @ gaudy That sure is a good way to change his mind. swearing and calling peoples names isn’t the right approach to take.

      Mar 14, 2014 at 10:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • richard
      richard

      @Harley: reminds me of Hermann Munster when he did Drag.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 12:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DarkZephyr
      DarkZephyr

      @deltabadhand: “Also, I find the usage of “cis” offensive unless it’s been cleared as acceptable by the folks it’s being applied to. I will never find it non offense when applied to me.”

      What exactly is so offensive about the term? It simply means someone who gender identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth. Is this not true of you? If it is true, why would you find the term offensive? Please explain.

      @TinoTurner: What does “cis gender” have to do with being part of the gay community? Trans people aren’t claiming to be a part of the gay community unless they are trans people who happen to BE gay. They *are* a part of the greater LGBT community however, just like the rest of us. They are our brothers and sisters and have been with us since Stonewall. Why do you resent that? Please stop with the Transphobia. Its NO better than Homophobia.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 1:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • stanhope
      stanhope

      @Harley: AMEN!!!!

      Mar 15, 2014 at 6:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • stanhope
      stanhope

      @gauty: I think even larger than that oppressed segments should bring to the table a sensitivity that other people lack. To make mean spirited comments about another oppressed group of people is ignorant. To resent being grouped with them exhibits a mentality of self shame if you think about it. You want your group, though oppressed, to be better than a “lower” group which you oppress. What a fool. Go home, get educated, return the Republican Party card of which you are doubtless so proud and come back when you are smarter.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 6:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stefano
      Stefano

      Transphobia, homophobia, islamophobia, Christianophobia, lesbophobia, negrophobia, russophobia, turcophobia, ect. I had enough of it. You don’t like me? You are certainly a “phobic” personne because everyone must love me ! LOL

      Mar 15, 2014 at 7:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stefano
      Stefano

      I’m venustraphobic, keanuphobic and most of all, i’m Hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobic. LOL

      Mar 15, 2014 at 8:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Mdterp01: said,,,,

      “Well since the gay community has generally done a bang up job historically of ostracizing the transgender community no wonder heterosexual people get it wrong. I love Wendy Williams and she’s old fashioned when it comes to many things. It doesn’t make her wrong. She believes in traditional gender roles when it comes to marriage.

      __________________________________________________________

      I always find it hilarious when people try to hide how vile and bigoted their opinions are by using soft language. “She believes in traditional Gender roles when it comes to marriage” Oh really?

      Why not just call it what it is. She is a bigot and believes that gays should not have the right. There, that wasn’t so hard now was it?

      But nice try when you attempted to give her cover by claiming that her bigotry somehow was ok because gays and Transgenders have trouble putting on a parade together. Bravo!

      Mar 15, 2014 at 8:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stefano
      Stefano

      I’m Jonnyweirdophobics too…and probably Queertiophobic. LOL

      Mar 15, 2014 at 8:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stefano
      Stefano

      I’m also stanhopophobic, darkzephirophobic, dawntransophobic, camophobic, richardophobic. Anyone is stefanophobic? LOL

      Mar 15, 2014 at 8:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Caleb in SC
      Caleb in SC

      Is it even possible for anyone to comment on these articles without using vulgarity or personally attacking another person?

      Mar 15, 2014 at 12:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Stefano
      Stefano

      @Caleb in SC : No, it is not possible. You can’t attack a group of people but you can attck a person if he or she disagree with you…and if he or she disagree with you, he or she is ignorant or sick. We are All ignorant and sick and need to be cured. We are all in cage of “phobias”.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 2:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @Cam:

      I always find it funny when people who think they know it all try and put words and thoughts into someone else’s head. I wasn’t providing any cover for her. She made an ignorant statement in terms of the misinformation about the biology of being transgendered, but in looking at her entire history when it comes to our community she has been very supportive. So no I don’t feel as though I was providing “cover” for her. When it comes to relationships between heterosexual men and heterosexual women, she believes in those traditional gender roles in terms of the man taking out the trash, the man opening the door for a woman, the man having to propose, etc etc. How does that make someone a bigot? It doesn’t. I also believe in those traditional roles when it comes to marriage between men and women. There are things that my dad wouldn’t let my mother do cuz it was the man’s responsibility to do. If you don’t agree..oh well.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 3:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @Caleb in SC:

      Clearly not. The usual know-it-all suspects come out wagging their fingers.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 3:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Mdterp01:

      So many words…once again to hide the simple fact of what you are defending. “Believing in traditional gender roles when it comes to marriage”

      In other words, she is a bigot who is against gay marriage. I apologize that people on this board understand the English language and are making it more difficult for you to try to hide your meaning.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 4:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mdterp01
      Mdterp01

      @Cam:

      No once again YOU are misunderstanding. She has stated her support for marriage equality. My parents believe in traditional gender roles when it comes to their marriage because THEY ARE HETEROSEXUAL!!! Therefore, it applies to THEIR marriage. They still support the right for anyone to get married, but obviously when you have different genders in a marriage there are going to be different roles. For my mom, she believes in the man being the provider and having the final decision about things. She believes in the woman managing the house and the man staying out of things that come to decor and all that. Traditional gender roles doesn’t ALWAYS mean you are homophobic if you are a supporter of gay marriage. It means that when it comes to a heterosexual marriage, they believe in those old fashioned ideologies. If you can’t understand that then thats your problem.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 4:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Mdterp01:

      If she stated her support for marriage equality then you are right I absolutely misunderstood your previous comment! Thank you for clarifying!

      Mar 15, 2014 at 4:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      ” I also believe in those traditional roles when it comes to marriage between men and women.”

      No one should be forced into a role, traditional or not, however a recent study just showed that if a straight guy wants to have a good married sex life, his wife will be way more receptive if he does things like fix the plumbing rather than helping with the dishes.

      What this shows is we are all more complicated than pseudo-scientific queer theory and gender politics – left or right – would allow. We don’t “educate ourselves” about anything by endlessly repeating ideological statements and making even asking questions into a hate crime.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/magazine/does-a-more-equal-marriage-mean-less-sex.html

      Mar 15, 2014 at 5:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hephaestion
      hephaestion

      I saw this episode of the Wendy Williams Show, and while it would have been nice to have a knowledgeable transgender person there to comment on the show, I was not bothered by the discussion. In fact, I agreed with what she said. Wendy is a wonderful, open-minded person so if you disagree with her, I’m sure she will listen to your opinion. She is the sort of person who listens to people and is willing to learn from others – and apologize if she makes a mistake.

      Please do not insult Wendy by assuming some kind of hostile intent on her part. She’s a very smart and fair-minded woman, so give her a chance to hear your point of view.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 6:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DuMaurier
      DuMaurier

      I guess nothing gets the gay community as knotted up as trans issues (unless it’s bisexuality) As a gay man who confesses his own need for more information and understanding, I will say that although I’m not “offended” (like a poster above) by the term “cisgender”, I think that except in specific gender discussion contexts it’s a bit precious and superfluous. If I say “One characteristic of human beings is possessing two eyes that enable sight” I don’t think that’s disrespectful of blind people, or implying they’re less than human; and if I’m describing a person to someone who doesn’t know him I don’t say, “Brown hair, blue eyes, tall and…sighted!” The latter is assumed UNLESS I say “Oh, and he is blind.”

      It’s also not a moral judgment to say that if someone DOESN’T have two eyes that can see that something went wrong somewhere along the way. And it’s not a judgment or endorsement of bigotry or discrimination to say that if someone is a gender at variance with his or her physical makeup that–yes–something also has gone askew, one way or another. To imply that it’s just an innocuous variation like hair or eye color is dishonest and unnecessary.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 6:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jayj150
      jayj150

      @TinoTurner:
      Also, they keep saying this ‘cis’ word is necessary because the alternative would be the word ‘normal’. But then they themselves refer to transsexualism as a medical condition which needs fixing; in fact, they even use that as a legal argument when they force the government and insurance companies to pay for their(very costly) treatments. Having a sexual orientation different from heterosexuality IS perfectly normal, it DOESN’T need fixing, surgery, hormonal treatments or implants of any kinds, that is why it is normal and that is why the word ‘straight’ is perfectly valid, because it is one of several normal sexual orientations. This ‘cis’ word, on the other hand, is not necessary because what it means is ‘people who don’t suffer from the medical condition of transsexualism’.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LishLash
      LishLash

      Wow, looks like there’s just as much trans stereotyping in this forum as on the Williams’ show. Here’s something to consider – the word “queer” was an insult decades before we assertively reclaimed it back in the 90’s for our own purposes, such as the name of this online news site. And by “we” I mean ALL LGBT folks, not just the exclusively gay or lesbian communities you may happen to prefer. It’s been 20 years now, and if you haven’t yet learned how to pay respect to queer people from all walks of life, it’s past time you do your homework before broadcasting your ignorance on an explicitly queer forum.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 8:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      @LishLash:
      For starters, every group usually gets to choose it’s own names and to call out a couple of words that are offensive. (N-word, F-word, T-word, etc.)

      No person that I know of whose gender was consonant with his or her sex ever asked to be called “cisgendered.”

      If any heterosexual told you they disliked being called a “breeder,” any decent gay person would cease to use it (at least in that person’s presence.) When it comes to “cisgender,” transgender activists will tell you why you need to accept this or else be called “transphobic.”

      More importantly, it’s ridiculous.

      If you really believe that “Gender is not binary,” then the “Transgender/Cisgender” binary is also nonsense.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 9:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @inbama:

      Actually your comment is very well thought out and on point.

      When the Transgendered community wanted to be called Transgendered, and not Transexual. That was the communities choice and others were asked to abide by that. The black community has made choices about group wording, and yet you are absolutly correct that “Cisgendered” is a word that the trans community is imposing upon others.

      Very interesting take, that hadn’t occurred to me.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 10:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LishLash
      LishLash

      @inbama: LOL, did straight folks all get together one day and decide they wanted us to call them “heterosexual”? Or for that matter, which gay group was it that decided we should all adopt the term “homosexual”? It was nothing like that of course, those terms originated in clinical psychology to classify people’s sexual orientations. Likewise, “cis” is a prefix adopted from biochemistry that modifies the word “gender” similarly to how “hetero” and “homo” modify “sexual”. I don’t care for any of those terms myself, but acting offended as if you’re somehow being victimized by bland clinical terminology is a tactic straight out of a Tea Party rant.

      Mar 15, 2014 at 10:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @inbama: Would you stop saying “straight” if a heterosexual person told you they felt it was a slur? What about “white” or “rich”, if the people those apply to asked you not to use them?

      Mar 15, 2014 at 11:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      @LishLash:

      “Adopting a prefix from biochemistry” does not confer any scientific legitimacy – in fact, it should clue in any healthy skeptic that they are dealing with pseudoscience. Calling male/female a “false binary” (whatever that means) but embracing “trans/cis” as a great insight is just plain bunk.

      @Thedrdonna:

      Your question is of course ridiculous as “white” and “rich” are more likely to indicate power than powerlessness.

      “Cis” offends because it herds gays, lesbians, and bi’s into a single category with straights. It not only disrespects our identities, it allies us with the enemy camp.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 7:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Desert Boy
      Desert Boy

      Wendy Williams is a stupid woman. How she ever got her own TV is a mystery to me.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 10:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jayj150
      jayj150

      Why do we never hear of ‘transmen'(FtM Trans) wanting to compete with male athletes?. Or ‘transmen’ assaulting gay men?. Or ‘transmen’ trying to grope other men?. It’s always MtF trasnspeople invading women’s spaces, I guess because it’s easier. I would love to see a transman joining the MMA and going against the guys, but so far the only transpeople ballsy enough to do it have been MtF.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 10:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @inbama: How does cis disrespect your identity? And yes, it does lump you in with straight people, because that’s how it works: being trans is orthogonal to being gay or straight. A gay person might as well claim to be offended at being called white because it lumps them in with straight people.and being cis only “allies [you] with the enemy camp” if you believe that people who are trans don’t deserve equal rights. Given how loudly many people in the LGB side of things talk about wanting to throw trans folks off “their” bus, that’s the real thing that allies those people with straight folk, rather than complementary descriptors.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 10:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LishLash
      LishLash

      “It’s always MtF trasnspeople invading women’s spaces.” Thank you for making your hatred for trans people explicitly clear. I don’t know whether you’ve been in solitary confinement for the last 30 years or what, but at this point it’s you who are invading this queer space with your trite archaic bigotry.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 12:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Thedrdonna: said….. “@inbama: How does cis disrespect your identity? And yes, it does lump you in with straight people, because that’s how it works: being trans is orthogonal to being gay or straight.

      __________________________

      I would be careful, you are feeding RIGHT into the commentary that Transgenders do not want anything to do with the LGBT movement, consider themselves completely separate and care nothing for the movement because deep down they want to be straight.

      In your eagerness to defend your little position you have laid out a far worse one.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 1:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @Cam: I’m not going to pretend that being gay/bi and being trans are the same thing. It’s possible to be LGB and T, or just one or the other. Of course, approximately 2 in 3 trans folks are LGB, so there is significant overlap. Not to mention the fact that gender identity protections also shield femme guys and butch women, many of whom are part of the LGB community. I have no idea where you got your info about trans folks, but it’s wildly inaccurate.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 2:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jar
      jar

      @Apparatus: Wendy is a big “exploiter” of our community, I think you meant to say. The woman’s radio career was based on raising gay rumors about black artists and athletes (usually men), right down to her signature catch-phrase. She used humiliation and shaming of people as her stock in trade. Sure, she’s toned it down because she’s on TV but she wouldn’t be on TV if she hadn’t made a career of treating homosexuality as the butt of her humor and gossip. Just because she dolls herself up and dresses like a bad drag queen does not make her a “big” supporter.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jar
      jar

      @Mdterp01: Yeah, it’s always the gay community’s fault, isn’t it? You readily admit that Williams is an ignoramus, but somehow we’re to blame for her ignorance. You can take your scapegoating and shove it up your…

      Mar 16, 2014 at 3:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      @Thedrdonna: “How does cis disrespect your identity? “

      Because WE didn’t invent or choose it.
      Because WE didn’t get bullied as children because we were Cis-people.
      WE don’t have Cis-sex.
      None of us were subjected to torturous Ex-Cis-therapy.
      WE never joined any Cis-rights movement.
      WE never had a frightening coming out to our parents as Cis-people.
      We don’t go to Cis-bars, have Cis-icons, or honor martyrs like Harvey Milk because he was Cis.
      WE don’t march in a Cis-Pride Parade.

      Do you really not understand that being gay, lesbian or bisexual gives each group its own unique perspective on sex, gender and identity?

      Are gay men the people bullying you to suicide in high school?
      Are gay men beating and killing you on the streets?

      No – we’re the people in the same LGBT Movement with you who SUPPORT YOUR EQUAL RIGHTS.

      When an f2m has an affair with one of us, WE accept him as a gay man.

      All this and you insist on calling us by a word that statistically represents most of the people adversarial to the goals of the LGBT movemengt.

      We didn’t come this far and through our own childhood pain only to be defined by a bunch of over-bearing women who think that using scientific words in an unscientific way makes them all Carl effing Sagans.

      “ being trans is orthogonal to being gay…”

      OMG – we’re GEOMETRY now.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 4:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Thedrdonna: said…

      “@Cam: I’m not going to pretend that being gay/bi and being trans are the same thing. It’s possible to be LGB and T, or just one or the other. Of course, approximately 2 in 3 trans folks are LGB, so there is significant overlap. Not to mention the fact that gender identity protections also shield femme guys and butch women, many of whom are part of the LGB community. I have no idea where you got your info about trans folks, but it’s wildly inaccurate.

      __________________________

      Either you don’t read postings carefully or you are purposely trying to pretend you misunderstood.

      I never said what Transgenderes are or are not. I stated quite clearly that your post stating that Cis was appropriate because it was transfolk on one side and everybody else on the other played right in to the people who attack the Trans community by claiming that they are separatists, don’t care about the LGBT community etc…

      Your postings open that door to those accusations, don’t get angry because I merely pointed out what you were doing.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 4:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LishLash
      LishLash

      @inbama: “Because WE didn’t get bullied as children because we were Cis-people.
      WE don’t have Cis-sex.”

      Now you’re just grandstanding for the hell of it. “Cis” is nothing more than a technical prefix. It’s not an Identity. It’s not a Sub-Culture. It’s not a Lifestyle. and it’s not a divisive attempt to lump gays and lesbians together with straights.

      The group we all truly belong to is the one we claim as Queer. Because, yes, we were bullied as children because we were perceived as Queer. And yes, we do have Queer sex, regardless of whatever clinical sub-categories people may pick to classify what we do.

      Ironically, I and most trans folks I know don’t even use the word “cis” – I was one of those who thought it was a naive idea to promote the use of an obscure technical term that most people don’t even recognize what it’s supposed to mean. It’s much clearer to simply say “non-trans people” when you need to make that kind of a distinction, and it’s obvious you’re not implying that anyone relates to that as a Personal Identity.

      Not that I expect it to help much, but I intend to point out the misunderstandings this misbegotten word can provoke among LGB folks to trans activists who make a point of using it. It’s just a dumb idea in general to prefer clinical language over the colloquial terms that emerge natively from within LGBT communities.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 5:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LishLash
      LishLash

      @Thedrdonna: “[cis-gendered] does lump you in with straight people, because that’s how it works: being trans is orthogonal to being gay or straight.”

      Now do you see how this kind of divisive clinical language provokes animosity and misunderstandings? What do you expect to accomplish by claiming trans people are “orthogonal” to gay or straight people? Whatever you meant to say, it’s not Queer and it’s not affirmative to any LGBT community I relate to.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 5:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @inbama: Let’s do a little exercise, and replace the word “cis” with “heterosexual”:
      “Because WE didn’t invent or choose it.
      Because WE didn’t get bullied as children because we were straight-people.
      WE don’t have straight-sex.
      None of us were subjected to torturous Ex-straight-therapy.
      WE never joined any straight-rights movement.
      WE never had a frightening coming out to our parents as straight-people.”

      That’s the thing: trans people get bullied for being trans. We get forced into ex-trans-therapy. We fight for trans rights. And you better believe I was scared out of my wits when I came out to my parents as trans. Being cis is the advantaged position, like being straight. If you’re a gay cis man, that doesn’t mean that you experience no discrimination, but it does mean that you don’t experience discrimination for being trans (or for being a woman, for that matter). There are lots of different ways that you can be privileged: being straight, being white, being male, being rich, being attractive, being cis. The list goes on and on. Do you get angry at women for calling you a man, because that lumps you in with mostly straight men? Do you get angry at black people for calling you white, since that places you in a group with Fred Phelps and Brian Brown?

      @Cam: Please see above. I was making the point that the link between being trans is clear, but complicated. Those who would pretend that there is no link are attempting to oversimplify a complex situation to forward a personal agenda. The people who try to shout down the use of the word “cis” are derailing the conversation, so that we have to talk about how offended they are instead of the very real issues facing trans folk. When discussing trans issues, we need a word to describe “someone who is comfortable with the gender they were assigned at birth”, in the same way that when you are discussing issues relating to being gay or bi, you need a word to mean straight.

      @LishLash: Let me counter your anecdote with mine: all the trans folks in my local community use cis quite a bit. It’s not a pejorative term, any more than straight is. The only people who have animosity are those who have a personal bias to push, and want to distract from trans issues by making the conversation about them. By saying that being trans is orthogonal to being gay (or straight), I meant to point out that one’s gender identity is not dependent on one’s sexuality. You’re saying that we’re all one big Queer family is true, and I’m not contesting that. There is a clear link between being LGB and being T, but to claim that cis gay men, cis gay women, trans gay men, trans gay women, and bi folk, both cis and trans, all have the same experiences is patently untrue and erases all of their individual narratives. And I don’t expect “non-trans people” to catch on, because that paints a portrait where being trans is a deviation. Would you expect queer folks to be cool with everyone else being called “non-queer people”?
      Also, regarding what you consider “Queer” or “not Queer”, you might want to read this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

      Mar 16, 2014 at 6:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sweetbrandigirl2004
      sweetbrandigirl2004

      @hephaestion: She has no knowledge of Transsexual biology she only has her own very uneducated opinion on the subject and her only claim to fame is that of a shock jock why is that Not a surprise

      Mar 16, 2014 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • inbama
      inbama

      “The group we all truly belong to is the one we claim as Queer. Because, yes, we were bullied as children because we were perceived as Queer. And yes, we do have Queer sex, regardless of whatever clinical sub-categories people may pick to classify what we do.”

      Thank you.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 6:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LishLash
      LishLash

      @Thedrdonna: “trans people get bullied for being trans. We get forced into ex-trans-therapy. We fight for trans rights… Being cis is the advantaged position, like being straight.”

      What you don’t seem to acknowledge is that you’re using an explicitly Queer forum as your soapbox, and it’s rude to imply that your own particular concerns should take precedence over those of other Queer people. Even after I point out how exclusive and divisive your terminology is, you still insist on speaking in clinical academic terms that imply there’s something special about being trans that sets us apart from all other Queer folks.

      And, Thedrdonna, I’m not saying you’re deliberately trying to be divisive, just that you don’t seem to recognize how you provoke that response from others. Your claims about being bullied and being forced into therapy are hardly unique to being trans – many LGB kids were victimized in exactly the same ways. In reality, the people who bullied us couldn’t care less whether we identify as trans or gay or whatever – to them we’re all deviants who deserve to be persecuted. Just try explaining to a tormentor how you’re not gay, you’re “orthogonal” and see how far that gets you.

      And then you said: “I don’t expect “non-trans people” to catch on, because that paints a portrait where being trans is a deviation. Would you expect queer folks to be cool with everyone else being called “non-queer people”?”

      Yes, I am totally cool with calling conventional folks “non-queer people”, because being part of Queer sub-culture is a meaningful and genuinely deviant experience. And if being trans means you can’t relate to that, then I think you’re missing out on something even more significant than being trans.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 7:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jayj150
      jayj150

      @inbama: Bravo!!!!

      Mar 16, 2014 at 7:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jayj150
      jayj150

      Transsexuals sue the government and insurance companies all the time because, in their own words, transsexualism is a ‘medical condition’. Homosexuality and bisexuality aren’t a medical condition, they are perfectly normal sexual orientations; they don’t need fixing of any kind(surgical, hormonal, etc.). So, yes, ‘straight’ is a valid word because it refers to one of several perfectly normal sexual orientations. ‘Cis’ doesn’t make sense and it’s not necessary because it refers to people who don’t have the medical condition of transsexualism; if you want to refer to those people you can use the word ‘non-transsexual’, or simply, ‘normal’.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 7:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @LishLash: It’s pretty rich for you to say that, by trying to discuss trans issues, I’m somehow distracting from the topic at hand. This is a story about people making fun of trans women because they have preconceived notions about trans women’s bodies. This is not something that gay men have to deal with. I am not hurting gay men or detracting from LGBT struggles by talking specifically about trans women’s issues. You, however, are hurting trans women by trying to pretend that our struggles are exactly the same as gay men’s, which also does gay men a disservice. If this were a broad attack on queer people, then yes, it would be strange for me to be specifically trying to highlight trans women or trans people as being more affected by that.

      I don’t believe I said that being bullied is something unique to the trans experience. I never discounted the concept that gay people have to endure “reparative therapy”, because obviously that shit does happen and it’s reprehensible. But yes, divisions are necessary when there is an issue that specifically faces trans folks, and not gay folks. I wouldn’t comment on, say, an article about gay men’s health and complain about how they’re not including trans women, because even though we’re all queer, there are subgroups within that and we all face unique, but mostly overlapping, challenges in this cisgender and straight-dominated world.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 7:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LishLash
      LishLash

      @Thedrdonna: ” I am not hurting gay men or detracting from LGBT struggles by talking specifically about trans women’s issues. You, however, are hurting trans women by trying to pretend that our struggles are exactly the same as gay men’s, which also does gay men a disservice.”

      Right, here comes the victim-hood. So I’m supposedly “hurting” trans women by pointing out that we share many oppressive experiences in common with gay men, due to the fact that in our tormenter’s eyes we were all just a bunch of queers? Look where you’re choosing to stage this cat fight, it’s a widely viewed Queer forum, not a trans-only support group.

      My view, based on how the whole “cis” campaign has played out, is that it is often perceived as divisive and pseudo-scientific by Queer allies who don’t happen to be trans. I don’t care how cute or clever it may have been originally, if it doesn’t serve to promote understanding and compassion among Queer people as a whole, then I think it’s counterproductive, and ultimately does more harm than good.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 8:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @LishLash: My view, on the second part, is that the vast majority of people in the LGBT movement who oppose the use of cisgender *just so happen* to be the ones who don’t really want to talk about trans issues anyway. So you and I are going to disagree on that point, and there’s very little chance of us seeing eye to eye there.

      Now, in regards to the first half of your comment, you are really ignoring why I said. Instead of responding to my point you’re claiming that I am trying to paint myself as a victim, which is hardly the case. I specifically say that trans women share most of our struggles with gay men. Why are you coming to the comments section of an article about something trans women face and gay men don’t, and claiming that my discussion of those issues is “divisive”?

      Mar 16, 2014 at 8:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • LishLash
      LishLash

      @Thedrdonna: “Why are you coming to the comments section of an article about something trans women face and gay men don’t, and claiming that my discussion of those issues is “divisive”?

      Because that’s the effect your diatribe had on many of the Queer people here. Likewise your provocative claim that “the vast majority” of LGBT people who react negatively to being labeled “cisgender” are just unwilling to talk about trans issues. Certainly not when your agenda is to lump non-Trans Queer people together with straight people, and insist that they’re too cisgendered to understand what it’s like to be trans. If you don’t recognize how that’s perceived as divisive, you should really put some study into how to engage with Queer allies.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 9:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @LishLash: I didn’t insist that anyone is “too cisgender” to understand trans issues, just that misinformation and ignorance of trans issues is endemic among cis people. Regardless of your diatribes and attempted smearing of my character, I’ve been using standard, non-pejorative words to describe an issue regarding trans folks. Being gay affords no special insight into experiences that are specifically trans, like medical coverage and inclusion in sports. Maybe that is divisive, and I accept that some folks may be offended by my pointing out that the LGBT rights movement is still treating trans folks as second class citizens. Take a look at the comments made by Deltabadhand, Harley, TinoTurner and Jayj150 that aren’t about how hard their life is because I’m using a word that calls out one of the ways in which they’re privileged: uniformly uninformed, mostly malicious. I’m perfectly find telling these people that they don’t know what they’re talking about, and if I need to use the correct vocabulary to describe that dynamic then I am unapologetic if they choose to prioritize petty quibbles about vocabulary over their apparent and obvious bias against trans people. Change doesn’t happen when we all sit around and sing Kumbaya.

      Mar 16, 2014 at 10:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hotshot70
      hotshot70

      I always thought Wendy Williams was a drag queen. That voice is too low for a real woman! A voice deeper than RuPaul, and weird habits, like lighting fire under a Slim Jim. Bitch is cray-cray!

      Mar 17, 2014 at 2:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JennyFromdabloc
      JennyFromdabloc

      Enough with the “cis-genger” talk. It is as amusing as online chat about the Illuminati. Identify however you choose. Be on your right path. But do not rename me because my childhood pictures and my adult pictures match.

      Mar 17, 2014 at 5:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Thedrdonna
      Thedrdonna

      @JennyFromdabloc: You haven’t been renamed, any more than a straight person has been “renamed” by the gay community because they love someone of the opposite gender. Besides, renamed implies a from and a to. What could you have been renamed from?

      Mar 17, 2014 at 8:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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