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Florida Treated to 1-Hour Infomercial on Homosexual Activist Agenda

silencingthechristians

The American Family Association wanted to celebrate gay pride with an hour-long infomercial that painted gay people as disgusting family destroyers. Some folks had a problem with this.

Donald Wildmon’s AFA, which proudly traffics in hate and lies, was so jazzed about St. Petersburg Pride (reportedly Florida’s largest gay pride celebration) that it wanted to treat viewers of NBC affiliate WFLA-8 to a full hour of misinformation. Speechless: Silencing the Christians is an in-depth look at the radical homosexual activist agenda, and how they are ruining Christian families! Naturally, those annoying homosexual activist groups didn’t like the sound of this, and started complaining.

silencingthechristiansgirl

Luckily, you can’t hold down the AFA! Through the power of the Internet, you can watch the whole program here. And yes, this looks to be a repackaging of the Family Research Council’s own Hate Crime Laws: Censoring the Church and Silencing Christians.

And for the record, the girl on the left who appears in the video … is an ex-lesbian.

By:           editor editor
On:           Jun 28, 2009
Tagged: , ,

  • 74 Comments
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      Ahh, you got to love those “deprogrammed” lesbians. I wonder if she is married to a man she never has sex with also. I also wonder if she still cruises the internet in her downtime looking at lesbian porn and arranging hook ups. I still remember the poster child for the ex-gay movement being caught with his pants down. Good times!

      Jun 28, 2009 at 2:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ...
      ...

      [img]http://i44.tinypic.com/25owgwn.jpg[/img]

      Jun 28, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • edgyguy1426
      edgyguy1426

      @: xoxoxoxoxo keep sawing

      Jun 28, 2009 at 2:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      You guys MUST watch this hour long video! They attack the repeal of DADT, DOMA, and attack ENDA, Hate Crimes, Marriage Equality, and on and on. Keep a barf bag close by if you watch it!!!!!!!

      Jun 28, 2009 at 3:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @: Too funny!

      Jun 28, 2009 at 4:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @: Love the cartoon but these people are showing this film on 2 different cable stations as well as airing it everywhere I think. This film is a recruiting tool and a way to generate donations. Very serious situation because it twists all the issues we want passed.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 4:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @edgyguy1426:

      This is really not a laughing matter nor an issue to be taken lightly. These folks are deadly serious and putting their money where their mouths are. They are NOT laughing!

      This was the first in what will be a 13-week media infomercial blitz on prime-time TV every Sunday night in addition to it’s being made available as a boxed DVD set for sale to the “believers”.

      It’s time to stop laughing…and start paying attention.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 6:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      It aired here, in Southern California, last Sunday evening at 7pm on station KDOC. I wrote the station, the board of directors, the programmers and the sponsors….got nothing back, of course, except some flack from my family for asking them for their support in writing the station on our behalf. It just drove home the point one more time that our minority status is so unique; women had their sisters and daughters and mothers to stand with them during sufferage, blacks had their family members, jews theirs, but homosexuals just can’t necessarily rely upon family to have their backs.

      The show was far more horrific than I had anticipated, by the way, and no other minority group would ever stand by and allow it to be aired without significant screaming and protesting….so far, here in So Cal, deafening silence.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @MackMike: I think there is so much silence because it is nothing new. This type of crap has aired my entire life. Hell, Ohio is trying to pass EHEA and the house got to hear from people that tried to claim that gays and lesbians can be changed. 5 out of 8 people seem to have bought that argument.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 6:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @galefan2004: My bad I meant 5 out of 13…5 people in the council voted no on the bill and 8 people voted yes. Its now on the house floor in Ohio.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 6:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      These pro-bigotry groups are the biggest bunch of liars and hypocrites. I agree with 2 in that if these religions want to keep spreading hate, let them go get their own land somewhere and start a “Christian Nation”! I hear land and Kool-Aid are cheap in Guyana!

      Jun 28, 2009 at 6:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Joanaroo: True, but if it was only Florida. Florida is the tip of the ice burg. This hatred video is making its rounds through the entire country.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 6:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @MackMike:

      Same here, Mack. I both e-mailed WFLA TV and called the station last night before the airing of the offensive program material.
      I was told to hold the line while my call was being transferred to the news department.

      Instead, I got connected to another lady (straight) who was also waiting to be connected with the news department. After a short, gay-supporting discussion with her, I hung up and re-dialed the station. I got told to hold on again and was connected with the usual fuck-off message, “Please leave you name, telephone number and a brief message….yadda, yadda, yadda”, which I did.

      I have received no response on my e-mail, nor, have I gotten a phone call back. I can only conclude that WFLA supports the positions made by the religious right. That should not surprise me, given that Florida is a fiercely Republican state that is anti-gay, anti-civil rights and supports DOMA.

      What the fuck am I doing here?

      Jun 28, 2009 at 6:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      Yup, Galefan2004, it’s enough to make you sick. Back when Dubya got in as Prez thanks to the Florida mess, I said Bugs Bunny had the right idea then. I wonder if it’s a coincidence that right-wing politics, religion and the drug trade are big in Florida?

      Jun 28, 2009 at 7:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      Any state that would have Jeb Bush as Guv has to be pretty fucked up. Just checked to see if any channels, especially religious are carrying this travesty on Comcast digital cable. Will check all programs marked “Paid Programming” over the next several weeks and whatever station(s) carry it will get Holy Hell!

      Jun 28, 2009 at 7:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      @schlukitz: I agree, this thing is dead serious. Unfortunately we are a country that allowed W to be President twice, not the smartest people here, older people and uneducated people will believe this and send them money and send letters to Washington.

      13 episodes planned? Very scary!

      Jun 28, 2009 at 8:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      Wait.. Did I make a wrong turn? Is this 1953?

      Jun 28, 2009 at 8:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      I’m still trying to figure out when and where this thing is being aired. I live in Massachusetts. Doing a search doesn’t bring up any results, neither “speechless…” or “silencing christians” show up on the screen.

      One thing that was presented in the infomercial(which I watched on youtube) that I have a hard time arguing against is the whole “Philadelphia 11″ and Stephen Boissoin cases. I don’t think you should be threatened with 42 years in jail for interrupting a festival, and I don’t think that someone who writes a letter like his, however disgusting it was, should be convicted of a hate crime…

      Does anyone know of any more so-called “ex-lesbians” like the one in the infomercial? Most of the time it’s only “ex-gay” men being spoken of.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 8:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bri
      Bri

      @Bri: Never mind about the ex-gay thing, googling “ex-lesbian” works. I’m used to saying “ex-gay” not “ex-lesbian” cause you know…lesbians are gay, too.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 8:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
    • DuttyBarb
      DuttyBarb

      Ok as the resident “bigot” what i am about to say will piss everyone off but im honest here:

      THIS IS NOT NEWS PEOPLE. Videos like this are played routinely in my church and in many religious gatherings..oh and schools.

      I have to tell you they are very convincing here..very convincing. I have been saying stop being reactive and start being pro active…well duh see what happens when you dont.

      TV stations dont have to play this..the internet has adequately taken care of that. It is of course in bad taste to air this on Pride day but guess what..anti gay groups are wide awake and are swinging back in your face. They have the funds and the overwhelming support to shut all your hard work down..dont ever doubt it.

      They made a lot of points that i admit are valid though..i have been attacked here because i am against gay marriage, i have had my religion called a cult and of course i ve been called a bigot simply because of this and this is only my objection.
      I mean if LGBT groups get their one hour spot well guess what Christian groups against this also do…

      Maybe now you will see that you need the support of the so called religious cults because they are winning this thing y’all

      Jun 28, 2009 at 9:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dan
      Dan

      @Bri: While I don’t know the specifics of the “Philadelphia 11″ case, I seriously doubt parties charged were ever truly at risk of either the 42 yr prison sentence or the $90,000 fine they allege. Their argument makes two assumptions, both highly unlikely. First, it assumes that the defendants would have been convicted under each of the misdemeanors and felonies the state levied against them. Suffice it so say, this is a rarity in any criminal case. Many of the charges will merely be dismissed for lack of evidence, or as part of a plea deal, and, of those remaining, the lesser charges will either be subsumed into their more serious felony counterparts or barred on double jeopardy grounds. In addition, the claim assumes the judge would have imposed the maximum possible sentence for each conviction. Again, a rare occurrence reserved generally only for the most heinous of crimes and unrepentant of offenders.

      As for the letter you mentioned, it’s important to note that this occurred in Canada, not the US. America is unique, even among its western allies, in the breadth of our free speech laws. While I do think it’s unfortunate what happened to him, it’s more a reflection of the different approaches the US and Canada take regarding the scope of free speech laws than a cautionary tale for American citizens seeking to express themselves.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 9:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      To the tax-exempt, tithing trash like Duttybarbs christer cult I say give us freedom FROM religion! Who made the christies the arbiter of how everyone is to live? OH! The bible? Well, big hairy deal! Who wrote that fiction? Tell all those GOP members who spout family values and biblical bullshit to live without sin and lust first before you hypocrites trash someone else! Love thy neighbor only if not gay but opposite sex and easy!

      Jun 28, 2009 at 11:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      And don’t worry about all that “going to hell” stuff because yes, I’m straight but if my LGBT friends are supposedly going to hell-even though they are more kind and not hypocritical-then I’d rather spend an eternity with them than a bunch of sour-ass do-goodies who can’t see the good in anyone different because you live in fear. We’ll have a helluva party without you!

      Jun 28, 2009 at 11:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jake the libertarian
      Jake the libertarian

      I sincerely hope this is shown on prime time basic cable nation wide. It only preaches to the converted. While it does motivate their base, it also motivates ours.
      Have you ever wondered why polls are moving so quickly in our favor? Its because those bastards have gotten more hateful. They expose themselves for who they really are! I am furious about this stupid goddamn video! It is rubbish. I honestly pray that as many people get to see it as possible.

      I swear when people show themselves as hateful fear mongers, it is only a very short time before they lose their support. That is the history of our nation. It has happened time and time again. Low rent propaganda like this is cause for celebration. It means we are winning.

      Jun 28, 2009 at 11:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Joanaroo:

      Many thanks for your kind words of support. You sound like a really cool person.

      Nice to have you aboard Queerty. We look forward to your ongoing contributions to this blog.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 3:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      These Christians have a real persecution complex, don’t they?

      If they’re not allowed to beat, imprison, and murder gay Americans — while depriving them of their constitutional rights — they’re being “silenced and oppressed!”

      Jun 29, 2009 at 8:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      @Jake the libertarian: Absolutely spot-on. These ads are PERFECT for LGBT civil liberties.

      This infomercial, plus the NOM commercials, were an absolute gift. They were so ridiculous and over-the-top that they pushed many people who were “on the fence” solidly into pro-gay territory and pushed a number of “anti-gays” onto the fence.

      Ten years from now, these videos will be celebrated as camp classics — as absurd and over-the-top as Anita Bryant or “Reefer Madness.”

      Jun 29, 2009 at 8:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Mike: If only they stopped believe we could be “cured” in 1953. I blame all the self-hating people that honestly tried to get themselves cured in the first place.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 8:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @DuttyBarb: While I agree with what you say (which is shocking). They don’t have the funds to shut down our hard work because the only person this video will appeal to is already in that 25% that is unreachable by us. The people that support us do it steadfastly. Videos like this have shown everywhere for the last 30 years and yet in that time we have made much more progress than they ever have. We don’t need to throw more money at the cause we are on the right side of. History has shown that throwing money at politics doesn’t do as much as you think it does.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 8:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @DuttyBarb: Yes the religious cults are winning this by HEMORRHAGING members. Do you realize how many members the main stream anti-gay religious lose to less anti-human rights religions and in general daily? Lets just say its enough that the Catholic/Mormon churches most likely won’t exist in this country in the next 20-30 years.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 8:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Joanaroo: The bible doesn’t make the christers the rulers of all man kind. Actually it tells them to not worry about such causes and to stay out of world politics. Actually, it also tells them to judge not lest they be judged. The dude with the ruby pradas and other such “religious” leaders decided to mire in the muck. Don’t blame the bible for it.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 8:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • galefan2004
      galefan2004

      @Jake the libertarian: The religious right enjoys shooting its feet off. We really just have to sit back and watch as they keep hemorrhaging members and once anti-gay churches realize how ridiculous they are and become pro-gay churches. It probably doesn’t help their cause that every major bible scholar worth their salt at this point and time believes that homosexuality is not a sin according to the bible.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 8:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jake the libertarian
      Jake the libertarian

      @galefan2004:

      It is really difficult to watch this video. It makes me want to kick ass in a big way.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 9:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DuttyBarb
      DuttyBarb

      @galefan2004

      Kindly clarify which Bible scholars you refer to…im curious

      Jun 29, 2009 at 11:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DuttyBarb
      DuttyBarb

      @galefan2004

      Dude, seriously 25%, really? Where did you get that grossly inadequate number from? Never make the mistake of underestimating the power of religious groups. You guys always seem to make this same mistake. In this situation, just like the gays are putting pressure on Obama, the anti gay community is putting twice as much. They just are not as unwise as to really advertise as they did Prop 8.

      There are numerous shows they have staged that have labeled Obama is gay apologist(THIS IS NOT THE FIRST)..which is never good for politics. Obama is first of all a politician btw so id take that into serious consideration. And also a devout Christian, who won the election with overwhelming Christian groups support..AM I BEGINNING TO PAINT A CLEAR PICTURE HERE?

      He first has to answer to these people before you guys. So instead of fighting him you should give him your support because the crap will hit the fan for him if he makes an executive decision that makes your side happy

      Jun 29, 2009 at 12:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      Hi! Galefan2004, I was looking at my comment and should’ve put quotes around “the bible” because to me that would be what these right wingnuts would say is why they are doing this. They believe the bible states homosexuality is a sin, therefore it seems they see themselves as saviors of society.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 1:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      Hi Schlukitz! Thank you for your kind words! This whole thing of anti-gay hatred by churches makes me so damn mad that I want nothing to do with religion-even though I know there are pro-gay churches and clergy as well as gay clergy. This gives religion a plague overall because of the abject hatred of groups like the AFA.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 2:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      The only thing I agree with Duttybarb about, besides we both live on Earth is the internet is a tool the christers are adept at using for their propaganda. It is both good and bad that we are aware of what the haters think and do at the speed of light. Imagine if Nazi Germany had the internet!

      Jun 29, 2009 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevinVancouver
      kevinVancouver

      uughh couldn’ watch that shit anymore surprised I made it through 45 minutes… I should’ve toughed it out but I could barely keep the vomit at bay ! Religion is ridiculous people that believe in any of that bullshit shouldn’t even have a voice! poor poor picked on christians give it a rest, well they will have plenty of time to rest when they’re just laying in the dirt rotting, going absolutely NOWHERE @!! ok thats my rant
      have a gorgeous day.. ta ta.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 2:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      26% of Christians voted for Obama in the national elections, while 73% of Christians voted for McCain/Palin, which hardly amounts to Obama receiving overwhelming support from the “moral majority” in the last election.

      As for Biblical Scholars who support the notion that the Bible has been misused in relation to the translations concerning homosexuality, there are actually quite a few. These include:
      Paul Thomas Cahill, Justin Cannon, John Boswell, Victor Paul Furnish, Jeffery S. Siker, Stanton L. Jones, Reay Tannahill, Rev. Irene Monroe, Charles C. Hefling, Jr., Peter J. Gomes, John G. Kruis, Victor P. Hamilton, Mel White, Jim Miller, Mark White, and the list goes on and on and on. Of course, it is a huge money making issue for the Mormon and Evangelical movements that no matter the accuracy of opinions made by these scholars–no matter how well they translate the Bible–these anti-gay movements will never shift their point of view, for it would be a loss of revenue for them.

      And, therein lies the TRUE twist in all this. When researching the scripture most commonly used against the gay community, that being the story of Sodom and Gommorah, it takes no time at all to debunk the myth that the sin found in Sodom had anything to do with homosexuality–and most certainly not as it pertains to our understanding of homosexuality as it exists today. This is the sin of Sodom: she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God’s eyes. Sodom was destroyed because its people didn’t take God seriously about caring for the poor, the hungry, the homeless, or the outcast. But what does the story of Sodom say about homosexual orientation as we understand it today? Nothing.

      Luke quotes Jesus as saying: “But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.” Mathew indicates that Jesus forewarns: “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.”

      So, to use the Bible’s own teachings, the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church, Evangelicals everywhere, and our very own NuttyBarb, all of whom advocate pouring money into a political issue rather than directing that money that could be used to feed the hungry, provide shelter to the homeless, or used to heal the sick, are Sodomites and will, themselves, meet a very nasty end.

      Nutty Barb and those like her are the true Sodomites.

      My apologies for boring those of you who are not Christian; I just thought it was time for a bit of clarification.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 3:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      This whole “HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA” thing is really getting old

      Jun 29, 2009 at 3:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Beth
      Beth

      @ MackMike:
      Thank you for pointing out the obvious flaws in using scripture to back up bigotry against the LGBT community. I just wanted to add John Shelby Spong to your list. As a scholar and retired Episcopal bishop, he has been a consistent voice of support for the queer community and challenged Christianity’s rejection of us. I’m currently reading his book “The Sins of Scripture” which looks at the so-called scriptural evidence for homophobia and debunks it (along with deconstructing and condemning Biblical interpretations that encourage anti-Semitism, misogyny, environmental destruction, etc.) I would definitely recommed it!

      Jun 29, 2009 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      @Beth: Thank you, Beth, I didn’t mean to leave Sprong out, but there really are so many. Your book recommendation is a good one. You may want to read “The Good Book,” by Peter Gomes.

      Here is what anti-gay Christians do, they remove a portion of test out of the scripture, then they ask folks to formulate their ideas about society based upon a text that is completely removed from its “context.” It would be like removing a cital organ from the human body, setting it in a tray, placing that in another room away from the body that held it, and walking a line of people by it, asking them to identify it, what its function is, and how it works within the body. This is what the average church goer does; they sit in service on Sundays, listen to what someone tells them is in the Bible, and blindly apply that to their understanding of the world.

      I have such a family. When we sit down to speak, they invariably bring up Biblical scriptures, as regurgitated by their pastor.

      A few months ago, they told me that Dinosaurs were on Noah’s Arc; “really? Where in the Bible does it say that,” I asked–knowing that it does’t say that in the Bible anywhere. “We don’t know, but that’s what the pastor says. We’ll ask him and tell you.” So, they send to me an email, telling me that it is in the story of Job, wherein God speaks to Job about two maginificent and large creatures of his own design. God is explaining that he owed no explanation to those mighty creatures, and he ows no explanation to a puny little thing like man. The overall context is the story is that bad things sometimes happens to good people, that it is beyond man’s comprehension why he might suffer so, and that one should not judge another by their misfortunes. Of course, all that is lost when you just pluck out text about two mighty animals that once existed…and suddenly the true lesson of that story is lost.

      So, when Leviticus is used against us, or the words of Paul, the story of Sodom, etc, it is 100% of the time done by pulling bits and pieces of text–which is mistranslated in the first place–and then spun to mean something else that is used against us. Sadly, because most people are lazy sheep, they don’t do a thing to educate themselves, and will actually state that it is better to not confuse one’s self with study and education, it is better to just follow whatever is told to them blindly.

      So, over the course of history, you have women tossed into lakes and ponds–if they sunk they were mortal, if they floated they were witches, and then burned at the stake. You had slavery, completely justified by the story of Noah in the case of slavery against the black man. You do what was just exposed in Ireland, you remove a bunch of children from their homes and place them in institutions where they are beaten and molested, and told that to suffer in this life assures them a better place in the next.

      Today, this moral majority is trying to rewrite history, claiming that our fore fathers were all Christian, the overwhelming number were Diests, who disagreed with Christianity in the very ways that Christians today worship.

      You may not be a Christian or interested in history, but educating yourself against these people is the best thing that you can do.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 5:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Larry
      Larry

      I know that people here generally know that this disinfomercial is bullshit, but the disturbing thing is that the people it’s targeted at who will see it — whether on TV or at church — will lap it right up. This is the sort of thing that generates a lot of the anti-gay memes that you see regurgitated on online forums and in letters to the editor and that ultimately influence people’s voting decisions. I would theorize, for exmaple, that the scaremongering Prop. 8 ads that featured photos of children worked because of the lingering influence of the old “gays are out to recruit your children” meme.

      I agree with Schlukitz: This is no laughing matter, nor should we play dumb and pretend like the people behind this movie are simply ignorant. They are intentionally spreading disinformation and lies, just as anti-Semites spread disinformation and lies about the Jews in interwar Germany to frightening effect.

      What the AFA, FRC and NOM are doing is propaganda, pure and simple, and there need to be concerted efforts to counter it.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 7:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DuttyBarb
      DuttyBarb

      @MackMike,

      Dude seriously, maybe get up from your seat and get a bible and read it. No really. Or better yet look it up on the Net.

      I am supposed to believe that the Bible misinterpreted only the portion that refers to gay men. I mean of coourse. Those darn translators had an “agenda” for your people centuries ago, right? They just misread what should have been “A man SHALL lie with a man as with a woman as it is an abomination before God” or “An abomination before man should be to lay with a woman as with a man”..Goodness i could go on for hours with this. Denial is a fun way to waste your day.

      Even if i were to believe any of this..why is it only the homosexual aspect that is misinterpreted…hell, the adultery part must be wrong too or the incest part, hell even the stealing part must be misinterpreted. Oh and the fact that God created the earth..i mean duh.. the Bible didn’t mean God..those darn translators messed up.. they meant Baal created the earth..oops!

      It rankles me to no end and embarrasses me as Christian that many people teach homosexuality is not a sin. Not only is it an outright blasphemy…but it is humiliating too.

      FYI, anyone who says homosexuality is the only reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorroh is well as misinformed as you are, Mack. God destroyed them for all those things you pointed and more especially homosexuality. I mean come on, do you really believe Sodom was the only place that people were not hospitable..really? I mean sure of all the places on earth that time God( who is Martha Stewart obsessed) decided ..Hmm, too many people on earth who are not friendly to strangers..i know let me sort by the most inhospitable places and zap em!!!! Jesus, this is ludicrous and i hope you really dont believe this nonsense

      I mean read this passage for an example of the upstanding gay lifestyle that went on there.Genesis chapters 18 and 19. Two angels from God were sent to Lot in Sodom and the city men of all shapes, ages and sizes came to Lot’s home and demanded he give up the angels so they can have sex with them.Genesis 19:4-9 I mean the Bible said this not we “darn bigots£.

      Oh and Macky, the Bible said the main issue that stuck out when God leveled Sodom was sexual perversion.

      In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” (Jude 7)

      For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet: Romans 1:26-27.

      See the Bible sends a shout out to Lesbians too. Now the grammar here is pretty clear..Macky. I dont care if you list Bible Scholars from here to Deep Space Nine..a true Bible Scholar( not the false prophets that you have listed) agree with this.

      If this is really what the Gay community has to fight NOM, FRC and the True Church…Good Luck..you most certainly need it

      Jun 29, 2009 at 8:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      @DuttyBarb: Everyone, this is a perfect example of a very little knowledge is a dangerous thing. DummyBarb as been able to look up scripture, but is unable to understand it, do the work to better understand the translations, or even put it into an historical context. Therefore, she is left misusing it as a tool to justify her rampant hate and prejudice.

      Now, are only those passages that anti-gay folks like DummyBarb the only passages that have lost something in their translations over the centuries? No, and you would have to be simple minded (a bit like DummyBarb) to have to ask such a question. Not only have a number of passages been misused and mistranslated to oppress all sorts of people, but many of those scriptural references have actually been incredibly responsible for the pain and suffering of Blacks, Women, debtors…just all sorts of people throughout history. Heck, the Bible even contradicts itself. Simply because I, in this particular posting, have focused on those “clobber” passages that have been used to attack homosexuals does not in any way infer that I believe that the Bible is utterly free of mistranslations regarding other groups or behaviors. Now, come on, DummyBarb, with all the free time on your hands, you should be taking a logic class–heck, you have enough time to take a Bible class or two. Whatever you do, DummyBarb, do it quickly, because I don’t want to waste my time with your informed, really rather stupid questions.

      Now, let us break down Sodom just for a moment for you, DummyBarb. Two angels were sent down to destroy the cities. Scripture does not say a thing about homosexuality at this point in this story. The first “rumbling” that we do hear is that the men of the city surrounded Lot’s home. The phrase used here in the original Hebrew is transliterated as “anshei ha’ir, anshei S’dom.” It can mean “men of the city, even the men of Sodom.” But it can also mean “the people of the city, the people of Sodom.” In the story of Sodom,it looks like they have used the masculine, even though the crowd apparently included both women and men, because if a crowd contained all women, but one man, the word would take on the “masculine” in terms of conjunctions and pronouns. Scholars believe that the crowd was co-ed.

      On to your obession, DummyBarb, gay sex–your favorite! Now, you use very interesting words that were absent in the Bible until only very recently. You mention that the men of Sodom said that they wanted to have sex with the angels. SEX?! The word “SEX” was in the Bible? Really? NO!!! Not really! You’re reading from The New International Version of the Bible, or perhaps The New World Translation–which would mean that you are a Jehovah Witness, which would mean to Evangelicals and Catholics that you are in an occult and destined for hell, but we all already know that to be true, no matter your faith, becausee you have proven yourself to be a Sodomite, but more on that later…back to the gay sex for ya, DummyBarb.

      Apparently the verb used in the original Hebrew was “yada”, and it can either mean to know a fact, or to know someone in what we now – because of this – call “the Biblical sense.” It appears 943 times in the Old Testament; in only ten of those does it refer to the carnal, or for your understanding, DummyBarb, “sex.” In each of these, it is used to describe heterosexual relations. If it was used in the story of Sodom and was meant to refer to homosexual sex, it would be the ONLY instance wherein this verb was used to describe a homosexual encounter. It just doesn’t make sense, DummyBarb, that this would be the single instance.

      Actually, in the Greek of the Septuagint, the first translation of the Hebrew Bible, done by seventy or more Jewish scholars, the verb used here is not the usual, more ambiguous ginosko but synginosko, “to meet, converse with.” Perhaps these translators were making it clear to those notorious Greeks that these folks were not having gay sex at all.

      Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology says, “[Yada] has a wider sweep than our English word ‘know,’ including perceiving, learning, understanding, willing, performing, and experiencing. To know is not to be intellectually informed about some abstract principle, but to apprehend and experience reality. Knowledge is not the possession of information, but rather its exercise or actualization. Thus, biblically to know God is not to know about him in an abstract and impersonal manner, but rather to enter into his saving actions (Micah 6:5). To know God is not to struggle philosophically with his eternal essence, but rather to recognize and accept his claims. It is not some mystical contemplation, but dutiful obedience.” They have a whole page about it, DummyBarb, if you could pull yourself away with taunting and condemning gays for a few minutes, you can look it up and read the whole page!

      But what if this was the single instance that this verb was applied to a same gender encounter? Well, there is an answer for that! If the towns people were calling for the angels to be given to them for sex, then this would be a little thing we call today “gang-rape.” This was a common form of punative humiliation by which men, particularly enemies, were emasculated in their society.” This is the opinion held by The New Oxford Annotated Bible – that the crowd is demanding the angels be turned over to them for gang rape as a form of punishment, and that for Lot to let his visitors come to any harm would be a serious violation of the value of hospitality that was so important in their society, and that that is why offering them his daughters in their place. If this is the true meaning of the passage, it seems to me that it is taking an anti-rape position, not an anti-gay one.

      Here is something to think about…if this was about homosexual acts, why would Lot offer his daughters in the place of the angels? Does that make sense? His daughters were both to be married to men of Sodom, why wouldn’t he offer those men? Himself? Why would he offer his daughters to a mob of homosexuals…and remember, they didn’t do make-over then, DummyBarb. Logical? Again, no.

      The notion that somehow the townspeople were demanding consensual sex with the angels is incredibly illogical. However, if they were not demanding to know the angels in the carnal sense, then they may have wished to interogate them. Sodom was a small fortress that was a target of attacks by those who wished to take over their trade routes, so that is a possibility.

      In the New Testament, Jesus himself is under the impression that Sodom was destroyed because it was a place lacking hopsitality; he says as much in Matthew 10:14-15, and again in Luke 10:10-12. But them, you probably know better than Jesus, huh, Dummy Barb?!

      What is revealing is that nowhere in the Old or New Testaments is the sin of Sodom, the cause of its sudden and terrible destruction, equated with homosexuals or with homosexuality. The possible potential rape of the angels at Lot’s door, is distasteful, but it is not thhe subject of the story or the cause of the punishment, and no one in scripture suggests that it was. Rape is never to be condoned, homosexual or heterosexual, and rape does not invalidate all homosexuals or homosexual relationships. After all, David’s sin of adultery with Bathsheba does not make all heterosexual relationships sinful.

      The exact same trick was played on countless blacks by people just like you, DummyBarb. Of course, not all of them were ignorant and uninformed like you, some where just manipulative and truly evil. Anyway, they spoke of Noah’s son Ham, and Ham seeing or knowing his father’s nakedness, and this was used for centuries to subjugate an entire race of people and enslave them.

      By the way, the Bible never once speaks against slavery, and in fact condones it. Women are not supposed to speak in Church or in a meeting among men in which faith is discussed (by the way, hush now….you don’t have a place to speak here…not in this discussion with a male Christian). So, are we to fashion society today exactly as it was, DummyBarb? Don’t answer that….it is rhetorical…you don’t have a say here.

      As for incest, the Bible is rife with it!

      As for your quotation of Leviticus, it is speaking of men who lay with women and then lay with me…a practice common in ritual among the Caninites…the folks who lived in the land given to the Jews. Ritual were forbidin, men who layed with women are not homosexual, are likely married and committing adultry, and let us look at what else Leviticus has to say: Children who curse parents…stoned. Wearing clothes of two different materials…abomination. Adulterers….put to death. Eating fruit from a tree harvested prior to his first year…abomination. Vegitables from a fields sown with two different seeds…abomination. Shell fish…abomination. Men shaving…abomination. Women cutting their hair, men cutting their hair into a bowl cut…abomination. Do you know what abomination means? It means “culturally impure.”

      I’m sorry that the truth “rankles” you to know end, but your hate enducing, violence raising, hostility inspiring misuse of the Bible, a book you don’t understand or know very well that you use to clobber innocent people with–and not all people, just those of your choosing, his the height of hypocrisy and frankly disgusts me.

      In short, DummyBarb, your vast ignorance and cruelty make me want to vommit! If you want to use the Bible with blunt force over the heads of your intended victims, at least take some time to get to know it.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 9:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      he offered his daughter to be raped and violated… What a “good” book.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      And I don’t think it can be misunderstood that “know” meant anything but the sexual connotation. Of course, an eccentric interpretation of that meaning in its context is possible as all language is underdetermined; it’s just that the best meaning we have available is that it meant “sex”.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      all natural language, that is.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      @TANK: As I told NuttyBarb, the verb “to know” is used 943 times in the Bible. In ONLY 10 of these, is the verb thought to mean to know in the “carnal” sense, just 10. If that is how it was used in the story of Sodom, then it would be the only time, the one isolated event, in which that verb was used to describe a homosexual encounter–in this case homosexual RAPE.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @TANK:

      Well fortunately we DO have the original text, so there’s not actually a lot of guesswork:

      http://www.moseshand.com/questions/p17ax.htm

      “Yada” meant pretty much everything the English word “know” meant, including to have sexual relations.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @MackMike:

      ANd this happens to be one of them given what it could possibly mean in this context and what it meant then, too. The entire expression “know in the biblical sense” is directly related to how know was used.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @strumpetwindsock:

      As I already said, natural languages are inherently indetermined in meaning, and you can pretty much get any sentence to mean anything you want if you make significant enough adjustments elsewhere. So sure, you can suggest that it meant “know” in the “have a conversation”–but it can also just as easily (and more likely given the CONTEXT in which it was used) mean what most people think it does…including most every biblical scholar except the fringe ones who have other agendas…

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      Also, why would the man offer his daughter to be raped and violated by the mob if all they wanted was to meet and greet–shake some hands? That’s even worse, if you think about it…

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @TANK:

      Yeah, I’m agreeing with you. It’s not likely that Lot would have begged the good people of Sodom to just have a chat with his daughters if they only wanted to talk to the messengers.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @strumpetwindsock:

      LOL! Yeah, it’s really a terrible book. I Don’t understand how anyone could look to it for moral instruction given that there aren’t many moral lessons to be had other than the whole divine threat deal…and the individual players are just horrendous. Moses, in particular, commands genocide in numbers.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 10:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      @TANK: Really, this is definitively one of the instances? Given that the root word is translated also to mean to interogate, it could not mean that? Why? And, if they wished to know in the carnal sense the angels, are you suggesting then that this is an indictment of homosexuality and its myriad of relationships, or do you see that the town’s peoples demand as a punitive attempt to rape the angels? If not, why? If the towns people were made up entirely of men, were they homosexuals? If so, do you believe, as many Evangelicals do, that all the town’s men were homosexual? If so, then why were Lot’s daughters engaged? Why then would Lot offer his daughters to a mob of homosexuals?

      Please cite your references–I can.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 11:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      @TANK: Tank, cancel that. We are going to get into the exact thing that ignorant Christians like DuttyBarb get into, by isolating one sentence in a scripture and then remove it from the overall context. The larger point of the story is that the town was inhospitable to strangers, did not take care of the poor, the hungery, the infirmed…the horded their food and goods for trade, and the point I was trying to make is that, this being the true sin of Sodom, the Mormon Church, NOM, and people like DuttyBarb are true Sodomites, who diverted funds that could have been used for the needy, and instead were channeled into a political movement intended to oppress a rather meek people (at least in numbers). This was the sin of Sodom, according to Jesus, and this is what should be focused on….if we are talking to know in the carnal sense, then we are (according to the overwhelming number of Biblical scholars…not just the fringe scholars with an agenda) looking at a mob with both men and women who intended to rape.

      I am just sick and tired, after having fought out here in OC, all these Christ facists who couldn’t even speak scripture with me, yet loved to pummel us all with a book they do not know…and I don’t mean that in the carnal sense.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 11:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      Well, perhaps that’s the true moral, then–that the town was inhospitable to strangers. But then is that worth what happened? Men, women, children destroyed because of inhospitable townsfolk? Imagine that the next time someone cuts you off in traffic…what the bible justifies.

      Jun 29, 2009 at 11:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      Thanx MackMike and Beth for the info on the scholars and I’ll check out that book you mentioned. When i replied to Schlukitz earlier I forgot to mention that too that just imagine if the haters had the brains to use all that money wasted on their propaganda for cancer patients or natural disaster aid. Problem is these people probably never did a nice thing for others in their lives.

      Jun 30, 2009 at 12:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      @TANK: Tank, I’d not argue with you the terrors found in the Bible, but they are, of course, parables written to a people at a particular time in history. There are all sorts of contradictions, incongruities and tales of horror. Can you imagine how we would handle today the story of Abraham and Issac? A modern day man has his son build an alter to have his father sacrifice him on? Just what would the neighbors think? I mean, if a woman tells us that God told her to drown her children, and she does so, where is the conservative right when she needs them? Why don’t they defend her for obeying God’s words to her?

      Of course, the story of Christ is lost on these condemning people of “faith,” who constantly refer as DuttyBarb does to the Old Testament, dismissing the life of Christ altogether…it was his sacrifice that was to forgive people for sin and free them of the impossible to follow tenents of Levictical Law.

      Anything involving fundamentalism is horrifying to me.

      Jun 30, 2009 at 12:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      @Joanaroo: And that’s why they are the greatest sinners of them all. Jesus Christ was famously apolitical, and warned against his followers involving themselves in the dirty business of politics–which is, of course, exactly what evil people like DuttyBarb do, and they do it at the expense of the poor, of the hungry, the homeless, the ill. Many go to big fancy Mega Churches that stand on expensive, techonologically advanced campuses or they have multi-million dollar crystal towers. They build these false edifices and let the poor and infirmed “eat cake.” This being the primary sin of Sodom, makes them the biggest sodomites of all, and they refuse to see it–instead, they go on the attack, true to their sodomite like form, and do all they can to show a heartless disregard to those most easy to oppress. That’s their MO, and as you can see from DuttyBarb, it is one they have a great deal of pride in. How proud God must be…not!

      Jun 30, 2009 at 12:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joanaroo
      Joanaroo

      I know, MackMike, it’s scary that these people actually think they are doing something correct and saying they are religious. They seem more like followers of Hitler. They scare me more than North Korea does currently!

      Jun 30, 2009 at 1:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @MackMike:
      Yes, the important and undeniable thing is that the townspeople wanted to do something terrible to them.
      It hardly matters, because the notion of homosexuality being the sin of sodom is nonsense. Rape is not the same as gay sex.

      @TANK:
      Well, when you consider that God had already drowned the entire world then Sodom was small potatoes really.

      It IS a very dark story, but an interesting one, and also clearly an allegory. Sodom is not a normal city, but a place of pure evil, where not even 10 good people could be found.
      The story also shows a not-so-omniscient god bargaining with Lot about how many worthy people it would take to save the city. Why were they even sent there? And why was Lot’s wife killed for simply looking back?

      So I think DuttyBarb and the fundamentalists are wrong. There are some very interesting things in the story of sodom, but a simple condemnation of homosexuality isn’t one of them.

      Jun 30, 2009 at 1:25 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      Why were the messengers sent there, I mean… could God not have just spoken with Lot directly as he had with Abraham?

      Interestingly, the Koran does mention homosexuality specifically as one of the sins of Sodom – men turning away from their wives in favour of other men.

      The Islamic scripture does not include the part about Lot’s daughters getting him drunk and having sex with him, though.

      Jun 30, 2009 at 1:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      It IS a very dark story, but an interesting one, and also clearly an allegory.

      As are many stories throughout the bible. Including the torture and crucifixion, which was entirely arbitrary as jesus didn’t need to die for our sins (story jesus anyway, as I don’t believe in the historical jesus) if god is the only judge and all it would have required was his decision. And that’s the problem. Many people don’t understand the bible as merely a symbolic representation but a literal one. In fact, most people who are christian in the united states (and world) believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god (they care about the truth of the bible and god’s existence) or inspired by the inerrant word of god and god’s inerrant message need only be deciphered. This is not merely an allegorical understanding. But even if it were, what kind of heinous moral is being endorsed here?

      Sodom is not a normal city, but a place of pure evil, where not even 10 good people could be found.

      well, now you’re just buying into the myth and justifying the massacre of entire city…which, if we were to take this as literal truth, children were destroyed because of the lack of mere hospitality of their parents who in turn didn’t deserve, clearly, to be slain in masse as a result of that… Surely it would require a deranged person to believe that the city was justifiably raized….a deranged religious zealot, perhaps, with the moral reasoning skills (and yes, to be moral, one must reason) of an infant…like, duttybarb.

      There are some very interesting things in the story of sodom, but a simple condemnation of homosexuality isn’t one of them.

      Not the simple one, anyway. But there are others (corinthians), and of course you can dance around it, but I think that most christians whether they are personally antigay or not, view the bible as condemning homosexuality. Without religion, you’d have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things…only with religion do we see good people doing bad things.

      Jun 30, 2009 at 3:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      And also, evil according to christianity is simply whatever god says. It’s an arbitrary and vacuous standard that attempts to resolve the so called problem of “whim morality” by making it god’s whim…or fictional character’s whim/opinion.

      Jun 30, 2009 at 3:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TANK
      TANK

      @TANK:

      And so it doesn’t. And we see the euthyphro dilemma destroy christian morality…

      Jun 30, 2009 at 3:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      @strumpetwindsock: But this is where the languag and historical perspective are so very important to acknowledge. Men turn away from their wives, and turn to other men. A) This is adultry, hardly a depiction of a committed relationship between two homosexual men; B) Historically, at the time sex was often used in rituals (a form of idolatry), and took form through pedastry and prostitution. This would be the same scenario that Paul speaks of. What was unknown to Paul and society at that time was homosexual nature, something that extends well beyond the concept of choice. What Paul and others witnessed of homosexuality were acts of avarice, idolatry and exploitation…a pagan expression of homosexuality.

      Jun 30, 2009 at 8:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      @TANK: Actually, Tank, in 1 Corinthians 6:9, the reference to homosexuals–among a list of those who will not inherit the kingdom of God–actually hasits context in Chapter 5, which depicts a shocking case of heterosexual immorality–one not even mentioned among the pagans. “For a man is living with his father’s wife,” Corinthians 5:1). Paul is so disgusted that he demands that this man be expelled from the community, and this is the launching point that leads Paul into another discussion about how Christians out to live, and how they should put their past lives of multi-theism and idoltry, with all its rituals, behind them. This passage is not about homosexuality, and there is no evidence that the Corinthian church was bothered by that particular topic. Paul speaks of vices that are indicative of a sinful nature…they are symptomatic of a sinful nature, and what was known of nature at that time was exceedingly limitted. As Peter Gomes says, “To base the churche’s principled objections to homosexuality and homosexuals ont he basis of Paul’s imperfect knowledge is iteself unprincipled, and indeed quite beside all the heroic points that Paul intends to make in Romans 1.”

      Jun 30, 2009 at 8:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MackMike
      MackMike

      P.S. NuttyBarb is no better than the countless villagers who watched innocent women burn at the stake for being deemed witches; than those who supported the Nazis in the horrifying slaughtering of millions of Jews, as well as intellectuals, artists and homosexuals; and the two men who beat Matthew Shepherd to near death and then left him tied naked to a fence, crucifixion style. NuttyBarb is no better than these figures in history, and she just loves dropping in here throughout her lonely days, in an effort to taunt and torment–not to educate or better then life on any one single individual. If there is a hell, NuttyBarb will enjoy a very special place among her peers.

      Jun 30, 2009 at 8:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @TANK:
      @MackMike:

      I think we agree it is the literalists that are the problem, but even those who claim the Bible is literal truth don’t observe it as such. They all pick and choose what backs up their belief and leave the scriptural things that aren’t accepted nowadays (like slavery, polygamy, or eating shrimp). Many of them also take things which aren’t in the bible (like the sacrament of marriage) as gospel truth.

      And of course you must realize TANK, that you also pick and choose your favourite bloody bits when you evaluate the bible. And to insist on a literal interpretation puts you closer to that fundamentalist view than those who see it as harsh but allegorical, like most sagas, stories and scriptures from that era.

      And not that I’d recommend Struwwelpeter as a good childrearing manual, but it is evidence that educated people come up with similar teaching methods without the help of religious hocus pocus. Do you think Dr. Hoffmann really thought children should be starved to death, incinerated or have their fingers cut off if they misbehaved?

      And there are bloodier things in the bible than the fall of Sodom – the requirement that the Israelites slay everyone they cross paths with upon entering the promised land is a big one. Plus, the torture of Jesus is a pale reflection of reality in the Roman Empire – look at the gladiatorial games, or the requirement that slaves be tortured before giving evidence in court.

      @MackMike:
      Luther translated one of the words in Corinthians as “pedophile”, not homosexual. In fact the two words do not exactly mean either thing. I see what you’re getting at, but I wouldn’t split hairs too much. The fact is there are practices condemned in the bible which are not considered sins by modern Christians (even the fundies), and vice versa.

      Jun 30, 2009 at 12:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ozment the Historian
      Ozment the Historian

      What happened to this country? It’s saturated in crassness, hot climates, oil, ill manners, anti-libertine values, and gold plated religion.

      Where are those hills again?

      Jul 16, 2009 at 6:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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