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Friday Forum: Is the Gay Community Racist?

Editor’s Note: We’re launching a new feature today at Queerty. Each Friday, we’re inviting you to be the pundit on a hot-button question facing the LGBT community and its allies. As always, we expect people to be respectful and considerate of others by refraining from personal attacks. We present the information, you make the decision.

A study released this week by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force by researchers at NYU and Hunter College shows that the original numbers for the African-American vote on Prop 8. were wrong. Rather than an overwhelming 70%, it’s really more like 58%.

Yet, in the immediate aftermath of Prop. 8, reaction to the news ranged from bewilderment, anger and frustration to a committed, but sometimes patronizing call to “help educate black voters.” Is the rush to judgment a sign that the LGBT community is all-too-willing to blame someone besides themselves for their defeat instead of taking responsibility for its own failures? Or are the calls being made now to reach out to the African-American community a sign that the gay community is recognizing its failures to embrace people of color?

Is the gay community racist? Is the white gay community racist? And if so, what to do about it?

The San Francisco Chronicle offers more information on the study:

“That support among blacks is still well above the 52 percent Prop. 8 received from all voters in the Nov. 4 election. Much of that can be attributed to the strong religious tradition in the black community, where 57 percent of African American voters attend church at least once a week, compared with 42 percent of Californians overall.

“The study debunks the myth that African Americans overwhelmingly and disproportionately supported Proposition 8,” Andrea Shorter, director of And Marriage for All, said in a statement. “But we clearly have work to do with, within and for African American communities, particularly the black church.”

Religious voters were among the leaders in the pro-Prop. 8 efforts, with 70 percent of weekly churchgoers backing the same-sex marriage ban. Among voters who hardly ever attended religious services, only 30 percent voted for Prop. 8.

“This is a wake-up call to the (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) community,” said Jaime Grant, director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute. “We must do a better job of organizing in the faith-based community, using LGBT people who are themselves part of that community.”

But Frank Schubert, political consultant for the Prop. 8 campaign, doesn’t believe that more outreach to minority communities or religious groups would have changed the election result.

“The problem is not that they didn’t reach out to those communities, but that those communities didn’t agree with them,” he said.”

*A word about the image. It comes from Wandering Caravan, whose author puts it in context:

“The above is circa 1950 and is from Tunisia. The cartoon represents the gay colonial /gay traveller’s desires of being ravaged by “dark peoples” in North Africa. Though circa 1950, the idea, the desire displayed, remains a major fixture within larger gay culture where stereotyped fantasies of Afro Diasporic men coupled with a member of the larger gay community is a never abating staple.”

By:           Japhy Grant
On:           Jan 9, 2009
Tagged: , , ,

  • 314 Comments
    • faghag
      faghag

      Is the black, latino, asian community homophobic?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 8:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • apetickler
      apetickler

      I’ve long found that this at least appears to be the case.

      In a gay crowd, I’m much more likely to be treated as a person of my race, as opposed to simply as a person, than in a straight crowd. And I’m sure everyone here is used to hearing blatantly racist remarks, from sweeping generalizations to things like “I won’t date Mexicans,” from the mouths of gay people who may not necessarily be among our close friends, but perhaps friends of friends, people who chat you up in a gay bar, etc.

      I’ve often lamented that being discriminated against doesn’t seem to teach many people that it’s wrong to discriminate. I guess it’s kind of like how people who experience violence are more likely to be violent.

      But I guess there’s at least one more possibility: that gay people are simply more likely to reveal their racism to other gay people because the shared experience of being gay leads them to think other gay folks will “understand.”

      Jan 9, 2009 at 8:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JonDorian
      JonDorian

      Gay people are more at risk of being strongly affected by outside images it seems. We’re barraged by images of what the perfect man should look like and most of the time, that man is white. From the Marky Mark Calvin Klein billboards of old the half naked airbrushed fratboys plastered on the walls of your local Abercrombie & Fitch Store. I’m not blaming the gay community, I’m not even blaming advertisers. These issues of image seem to be deeply rooted in National Culture. It’s always been the “All American Boy” who has been the desires of both gay men and women.

      I do however sense a change happening. As an Asian when I was in my early teens I couldn’t get a date anywhere. Asians weren’t by any means attractive in the 90′s and now I’m getting a lot of the (mildly offensive) “I’m not usually attracted to Asian guys but [insert awkward end line here].” America is becoming more multi-cultural in their views of beauty; but we have to face the fact that it is a slow transition.

      Also, we have to take our general area into consideration. I live in Downtown Detroit and the social segregation between races is stifling here. Perhaps in a different city that is more diverse there is more of an acceptance of interracial couples but here it rarely ever happens. When it does it’s always a nice thing for me to see (though others would not take it so positively).

      But I never really answered your question. I don’t believe the gay community is racist. We so strongly driven by our sexuality that I think that we voice our preferences frankly for the sake of, for the lack of a better word, efficiency. You can ask any Latino, Black or Asian or even Caucasian person every now and then, that they have been turned down because of their ethnicity. It’s not something to be offended by because we all have our preferences – race related or not.

      This outcry against the African American population is extremely disappointing. But it should be a wake up call to the gay community. How quick we are as an oppressed class to pass the blame onto another minority. How quick we are to call out ‘nigger’ while fighting for our right to no longer be ‘fags’. It’s a damn shame and we should all be absolutely ashamed.

      But that only shows our own ignorance. And to have it so blow up in our faces so quickly and so strongly might lead to something positive in the end. I for one, have faith in peoples ability lean and their ability to learn to accept. Perhaps when we learn to accept ourselves in all our shapes, colors and imperfections, we can focus more outward. That doesn’t mean that we should suddenly find everyone attractive; but to distinguish between preference and racism is probably a step in overcoming the latter.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 8:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrianZ
      BrianZ

      First, I have an issue with the passing of Prop 8 being considered a failure on the part of the gay community: It’s a success for the homophobes and bigots. As if the gay community had the chance to forbid the proposition from passing but decided to have a party instead! Ya’ll might want to check how you frame a question. There were, and always are, things that could have been done better. However, let’s put responsibility where it belongs, at the feet of those who voted in favor of Prop 8.

      Second, we have a study that purports to debunk an exit poll on how many people cast a vote a certain way … a process that is completely secret and relies on self-reporting for accuracy? I think it’s safe to say that in the heated aftermath of the passing of Prop 8 it’s not much of a surprise that people might be a bit more reluctant to admit they voted in favor of it. Let’s let bad data be taken for what it is, and not gospel … on either end of the spectrum.

      Do I think it’s fair to place so much blame at the feet of black Californians for the passage of Prop 8? No, not so much. Homophobia is prevalent in the Black community. The fact that homophobia is prevalent in the Black community is not a secret to anyone. There is a lot of work to be done all sides of the issue. I agree that queers of all variety need to do more to reach out. I also put out there that it’s about damned time people get angry and show it! Perhaps if people have reason to pause and THINK before they act out their prejudices we might see some different results. It’s a tactic that seems to have been met with some success for other minorities, yes?

      Do I think the Gay community is racist? I think ever person alive is racist in some sense, bigoted in some arena. I don’t believe gays to be as racist as the population at large, but they certainly aren’t free from it. I think we can’t ignore any group, write them off as homophobic, and then stare in wonder when they *gaygasp* are actually homophobic. I also don’t think it makes you racist to point out that Blacks are disproportionately inclined to be homophobic.

      There were some very good issues brought to light from the Prop 8 drama, including that many Blacks believe that being gay is a choice and as such have trouble identifying with the gay civil rights cause. Maybe if we spend more time putting out there the things that bring us together, rather than asking asinine questions (Are gays racist?) we might be able to move forward.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 9:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tigs
      Tigs

      Almost all communities dominated by a white majority have elements of racism deeply embedded in their thinking and actions.
      Think about heteronormativity and just translate it into our collective history of white domination.
      White concerns are assumed to be the default concerns, and more often than not, the most legitimate concerns.
      Unless a movement is really actively anti-racist, it will have the tendency to silence minorities.

      In order to not recreate oppression, there needs to be an explicit choice by white people in the movement to slow down and listen when people of color are speaking.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 9:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • daniel k
      daniel k

      I think racism and the Prop 8 debate are 2 different things. Is it racist if you are only attracted to a certain type? No. Most often when you meet someone all you have to go by in the beginning is their appearance and you’re either drawn to them or you’re not. I can tell you as a GBM it’s just as disturbing to me to have a guy not give me the time of day just because I’m black as it is to have white guys hound me just BECAUSE I’m black. But we are a judgemental bunch. Whether you’re older, heavier, or of a certain minority, we’re all judged and mostly unfairly. So yes there are elements of the gay community that are racist, but I would say for the most part no.
      We could all be more tolerant and open minded though.

      As far as Prop 8, I feel the same way about the gay community as I do about the black community. Clean up your own house before you go pointing fingers at others for your situation. They have all of this data about the Cali black vote on 8, but I’d like to see the data on how many queens didn’t even vote… I’d bet the farm that it was a significant # and could have made the difference.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 9:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chris
      Chris

      Oh, right, duh. We’re not individuals or anything.

      So sure, let’s take two generalizations and stick ‘em together.

      Gays = Racists.

      hah! And I thought “we” were the new Blacks.

      Isn’t the irony just hilarious?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 9:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jake
      jake

      @Tigs:

      I agree with these statements more than anyone else’s.

      Adding to that, it seems that gay people accept their lack of inclusion and impact in the general population and digress to segregative behaviors where they are instantly and effortlessly embraced by peers of very similar characteristics. From being rejected for their differences, they develop a distaste for diversity. Not having a clear individuality leads to subjugation by imagery and that goes back to what Tigs said.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 9:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Anthony in Nashville
      Anthony in Nashville

      As a black gay male, I’ve experienced my share of racism in the gay community, from being excluded from certain bars to not feeling like my opinions were seriously considered in community organizations to the general sexual objectification that I think is a common experience for black gay men.

      I used to believe that gays were more progressive than straights, but there are plenty of examples that prove otherwise. I think many gay whites don’t feel the sting of discrimination until adopting an openly gay lifestyle; coming out sometimes is an eye-opener for those used to benefiting from white privilige. At that point, they may adopt a more liberal perspective since ‘the shoe is on the other foot.’

      It is clear that the LGBT community has many of the same issues concerning diversity and ‘acceptance’ that the straight world does. Whether people have the energy to work on it is an open question. Despite my negative experiences, I feel people of color need to try and be involved with the ‘mainstream’ gay community, instead of splintering off into things like “same gender loving” organizations that don’t even recognize “gay” as valid. White gays need to continue to make outreach efforts to people of color. I think some of the Prop 8 controversy shows the risks of not engaging people of color, especially in terms of media representation and organizational leadership.

      Are gays racist? At this point, I try not to judge groups of people and instead focus on my interactions with individuals.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 9:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • don
      don

      I read this with my boy friend who is latino. He agrees with John Dorian’s sentiments. He believes that some racism still is present in the gay community. In New York, where we live, we believe we are more open minded than other parts of the nation.

      When the first shot at the African American community was sent by Mr. Savage the sex expert I thought it was premature. I think his framing of the issue of “us” vs “them” is never a winning receipe for a meeting of the minds nor a way to reconcile any differences.

      But as a cop in New York, I have always respected the African American Church and their leaders. They are frequently the peace makers in the community and almost always try to bridge gaps and maintain civil interaction the community.

      I respectfully disagree with many religious leaders of all faiths, nationalities , origins with respect to gay marriage. Especially extreme Muslim groups who would kill us or as in IRAN mandate sex change operations.

      However, we think it’s important to view the totality of an individuals actions. And the minority community have always been one of the most supportive groups with respect to the gay community movement towards equality. The leaders of the gay community must learn from this event that they can’t rush to judgment, as in this case because we have lost some creditability and appear selfish.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • blake
      blake

      The “gay community” is just a microcosm of the larger society. Therefore, racism is alive and well. Look at the vicious racist comments that pop up on Queerty. They’re written by allegedly gay men.

      Pretending that the gay community is somehow exempt from the bigotry that exists in the greater society would be a deliberate fallacy. The Prop 8 anti-black rants by Dan Savage and others showed how quick some gays were to lay blame. Did Savage or others bother to check on the scientific validity of the exit poll? No.

      The fact remains that the gay community continues to own up to the fact that FIFTY-PERCENT of eligible gay voters in California sat out the election. Their votes would have made a difference.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • burton21
      burton21

      Japhy, I think you’re pretty brilliant and by far the best thing to happen to this site since I started reading it two years ago. However, I have a problem with the way you’ve presented this article: “Are gay people racist?” I think dealing in absolutes is entirely counterproductive; looking at the world in terms of black/white, yes/no, one way/the other way is pretty narrow and constricting to an actual discussion. Who is racist in the gay community? What are their reasons for this? I’m not sure it’s safe to ask if gay people in their entirety, as a community, are racist, because as Debunking Stereotypes 101 has taught us, not all (fill in oppressed minority) act/behave/think (fill in sweeping generalizing statement about previous minority group). Next time, perhaps you could pose real, theory-based questions to hopefully enliven a discussion with depth, not one that will yield yes or no responses.

      In response to the article itself: no, I do not think the gay community is racist. I think that there are unquestionably racist members and sects of the gay community, and certainly some racialized backlash from the bigotry prevalent in other minority groups (and Prop 8, daaaaamn). It exists. And unfortunately, these people are usually the loudest. But from my work within the community, I’ve found that most glbt people are tolerant, accepting, and welcoming of non-white races; don’t let the few bad apples and misguided souls convince you that our community as a whole has been poisoned by racism.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • cmh
      cmh

      Is the gay community racist? Well as far as I know there is no such uniform, monolithic thing. Are many gays racist.. to be sure. And Sexist as well. WE all live in a racist, sexist, homophobic culture.. trying to undo the damage that has colored our views is just the responsibility of every individual. Not the responsibility of the “other” to educate.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • whitey Jameson
      whitey Jameson

      Come on guys, of course the gay community is racist that rainbow flag is just a pipe dream, how many of you end up going to a saint party with your token black friends? How many of you even have a rice queen as a friend, and Im not talking about chatting to the guy at the corner deli – You’re all a bunch of hypocrites! Show me one gay man who has a wide of friends and I mean real friends from every walk of life and I will personally sign over this week’s paycheck to you.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Peter
      Peter

      Maybe it’s because I am only 19, but I am a young gay black guy and have never experienced racism from my gay white friends. I have experienced racism but it has always been from an older person.

      I think we should of tried harder for the minority vote but more minorities have to come out of the closet and do that. It can’t just be the gay white guy, we have to show them we are the guy getting their hair cut at the same place and sitting right next to you in church.

      I don’t think all of the gay community is racist, but maybe it’s a generational thing. Older people are more inclined to be a little racist? I don’t know, but I was offended by what some gay people said in the media.

      If this was not written by a gay person ” Is the Gay Community Racist?” I think I might be offended as well.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ChristopherM
      ChristopherM

      @Anthony in Nashville:

      I was going to chime in, but you said everything that needed to be said, Anthony. Well done.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaroslaw
      Jaroslaw

      JonDorian – I always thought Asians were hot and I work in New Center. Any chance for a date?

      Now to be the elephant in the room that no one is talking about on this thread re: African Americans & Prop 8: I read a lot about this on other threads and I’m unclear why some are so adamant that AA’s are or are not to “blame”. This is how I see it and I’m willing to be corrected.

      Yes, AA’s are a smaller percentage than other groups in CA; Whites, Latinos etc. all had greater numbers of voting FOR the proposal so ultimately “they” passed it.

      However, since AA’s have been historically discriminated against and they know how it feels, is it unreasonable to expect them to be more wary about passing laws to discriminate against others? If the percentages in the AA community voting for and against had been reversed, woudln’t Prop 8 have failed?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kenneth Shank
      Kenneth Shank

      Always has been and always will be,as is Society at large..At least I don’t hear:” Oh,that one? She’s a dinge queen”..The “rice queen and beaner queen” remain quite popular,however..

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeremy Feist
      Jeremy Feist

      Can’t say I know for sure, but there seems to be some assbackwards, unspoken, mutual aggrement between the black and gay communities that they won’t acknowledge each other. Which kind of strikes me as being pretty friggin’ ingnorant. There are gay people who aren’t white (I know, shocker), and there are people in the black community that are gay.

      That being said, when the numbers for Prop 8 came out, we can’t exactly be blamed for getting offended by the high percentage. However, we should have used that as a wake up call, that we’re ignoring the diversity of our community, as well as other communities. But some of us used that as an excuse to spread some more hate.

      While Black people and gay people have/are striving for mainstream acceptance, we can’t really say that one is exactly like the other. While racism and homophobia both stem from the same basic train of thought, they are not the same. Is one form of hate any worse than the other? Of course not, but they are both equally poisonous for society.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wolf
      Wolf

      Are Gay people Racist?

      Well there are Racist in all groups. It really comes down to upbring and acceptance. But personally I belive that GAY men and women are far less Racist thank other groups. And the whole thing about blaming African Americans for our defeat is a bunch of BS and basically being used as a scapegoat by certain Gay organizations that failed.

      Even in Japhy’s there is a quote that states:

      “But we clearly have work to do with, within and for African American communities, particularly the black church.”

      It REALLY comes down to the Chruch and Religion. Religion is our enemy. And those groups which are more religious VOTED YES on Prop 8. African Americans, Latinos and especially Older white Voters are more religious and vote the way their churchs tell them and get their opinions from the Church.

      So no. I don;t think the African American Community is Homophobis. I think religion is.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael W.
      Michael W.

      “A study released this week by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force by researchers at NYU and Hunter College shows that the original numbers for the African-American vote on Prop 8. were wrong. Rather than an overwhelming 70%, it’s really more like 58%.”

      Wow. And the gay community formed a lynch mob, led by Dan Savage, ready with nooses in-hand to go out and seek vengeance over this one stupid CNN exit poll.

      Sounds like the same amateur, overreactive attitude that had white gays so quick to throw Barack Obama under the bus after he selected Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inaugural.

      And you call Michael W. a racist. LOL!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Did the gay community vote to take away the civil rights of thousands of Americans? Or was it the other way around?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      A study released this week by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force by researchers at NYU and Hunter College shows that the original numbers for the African-American vote on Prop 8. were wrong. Rather than an overwhelming 70%, it’s really more like 58%.”

      Actually the number for the new study was a variable of 57% to 59%. So one study showed that 70% of African Americans voted in favor of Prop 8, another study showed that nearly 60% of African Americans voted in favor of Prop 8. Both studies show that African Americans in California voted in favor of Prop 8 in higher percentages than any other ehtnic group.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nate
      Nate

      So, while I agree in varying degrees with each of the comments above, I thought I’d throw my two cents out there as well. I am honestly as white-bred, middle-class, American boy as they come (rasied by Marines in Southern Ohio, German Irish, Blue collar parents, etc.) and what seems to be the issue to me is reconciliation. Not that I quote Jesus often, but, “You must remove the plank from your own eye before you can hope to remove the speck of dust from another’s.” I don’t think that many people, especially those over 30 or so, in the AA community have had the time to really allow the past to be just that. I think they feel that if they let go of the hurt that they experienced, or even their parents experienced, that they are giving up the fight for equality.
      Likewise we gays are constantly in search of recognition. We want to prove to others that it isn’t a choice, and that we feel the anguish as much as any other sub-culture. Therefore we seek to tie ourselves to the most prevalent one in society today, African-Americans. If we can reconcile the need to be seen as a sub-culture, and seek rather to be seen as peers to all, regardless of race and heritage, then this lashing out at those who voted against us wouldn’t matter.
      Lastly, I’m honestly so surprisingly pleased that Prop 8 passed. Is it a bigoted proposition supported by segregationists? Yes. However, did it spurn a dialogue within not just our community, but all communities and allow for new light to shine on the topic? Also, Yes. Being a younger gay (a modest 24) and living in NYC, I’m an idealist about all of this, but I think we’ll look back and recognize it as one of the most important losses that our community ever faced, because in its wake will be much success.
      Gays=Racists? No. Gays equally hurt by their experiences and looking for something to fill the void (pun intended), yes. But that satisfaction will not come from finger pointing, unless the finger is pointed at us. We need to highlight ourselves, make it known that we do actually suffer, and ever if it were a “choice,” that choice would be ours alone to make and that we have the right to make it. Ultimately, let’s just wait it out a bit. The youngest generation doesn’t even know what gay means, they just understand that sometimes boys love boys and sometimes they don’t. We’re living in time of change and it is so exciting!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael W.
      Michael W.

      @Wayne: “Actually the number for the new study was a variable of 57% to 59%. So one study showed that 70% of African Americans voted in favor of Prop 8, another study showed that nearly 60% of African Americans voted in favor of Prop 8.”

      Where is the study that showed the 70% figure? Surely you’re not going to sit there and tell us that an election exit poll is a “study.”

      58% is high, yes, but social conservatism is proportionately higher among older African-Americans so that’s no surprise. It’s that huge 70% figure that attracted the attention and anger (and the fact that it was blacks which the white gay community already despises made it easier to accept).

      58% of blacks in Cali isn’t enough to push Prop 8 over the edge. Had that been the original number, I doubt Dan Savage would’ve broken out the Klan robes.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Richard
      Richard

      So a bunch of African Americans voted Yes Prop 8; I bet if the bunch of white people that did vote Yes, voted No, we might not even be having this discussion.

      Perhaps we could just remove all republicans who are white and replace them with democrats who are white and gay, then you can really blame all the “minorities of colour” that you want.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RichardS
      RichardS

      It angers and depresses the fuck out of me whenever I see – to name but one example – racist crap from gay men posted on Queerty.
      But it’s surely bizarre to think that gay men would be the one social group in the entire history of the world that has every member who is entirely free of bigotry.
      I’m from the UK. I’m part Jewish, my boyfriend is Romany. We can both pass, you could say.
      The racism I see on coming up on posts on here is almost always anti-African-American.
      It shames me and sickens me.
      I get the feeling gay men are far less likely to be prejudiced than straights, because of what they’ve gone through, but still…
      Enough.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chelsea Resident
      Chelsea Resident

      Here’s another perspective on the NGLTF report:

      http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/01/07/7857

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jenna's Bush
      Jenna's Bush

      Historically persecuted group A votes in greater numbers than the population as a whole to take rights from historically persecuted group B. Original reports are that group A voted almost 70% against group B, but later it reported that the vote was “only” almost 60% and that it was because they go to church. Does the new information lessen the irony?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daigan
      Daigan

      I find it funny how some gay men can excuse their own ignorance by saying something like. “Since the Black Community is homophobic, I can be racist.” When we frame the discussion in this way, we eliminate any chance for discourse.

      I am a white guy who has spent years trying to look at, acknowledge my own access to privilege. I do this not from some sort of guilt, or some sort of higher ground, I have just found that my access to smart, intelligent and creative people increases when I can acknowledge and learn from my own bias and move beyond it.

      Am I racist? Yes, and I probably always will be to some degree. I was trained that way by a white majority in a colonial world.

      is the “Gay Community” racist, yes.. But that doesn’t means we or I have to continue to operate from that place. We can be willing to move beyond it, and open ourselves to a wider dialogue about race, class, gender and what it means to be perceived in the white male hetero-normative world.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Queen
      Queen

      I don;t think the African American Community is Homophobis. I think religion is.

      That explains the homophobia in the hip-hop community, which is an off-shoot of the black religious community. Oh, wait…

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      “Everyone’s a little bit racist sometimes!”

      Sorry, but I had to do it!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael W.
      Michael W.

      @Jenna’s Bush: “A voted almost 70% against group B, but later it reported that the vote was “only” almost 60% and that it was because they go to church. Does the new information lessen the irony?”

      Don’t try to inflate the number with that “almost 60%” shit. 1 or 2 percentage points is a big damn difference when it comes to political statistics. You don’t say “almost 50% of Americans voted for John McCain.”

      And how much of that 58% are older African-Americans who were unfortunately raised to believe that gays play a major role in society’s ills? I’d be willing to bet that older blacks made up the majority of the vote there, especially since Obama won the election before a lot of people in Cali voted.

      Is it bad that 58% of blacks voted Yes on 8? Sure is, but we’re not going to get anywhere by pointing fingers. We need to get that number dwindled down to 55% and 52% and 49% and even lower. And we also need the Hispanic numbers to be lower next time, the Asian numbers lower and the white numbers lower. Let’s stop singling out blacks as if their vote made the sole difference in whether or not Pro 8 passed.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lesbian Dyke
      Lesbian Dyke

      “Since the Black Community is homophobic, I can be racist.”

      Who the hell ever says that? C’mon stop throwing out crap.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael W.
      Michael W.

      Or Prop 8 for that matter.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jenna's Bush
      Jenna's Bush

      @Michael W.: My point still stands: Does the new information lessen the irony?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daigan
      Daigan

      @Lesbian Dyke:

      See the first comment in this thread.. The first thing said on this topic is just that type of thing.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RomanHans
      RomanHans

      Every community is racist.

      Here are some more questions. Is the gay community sick of hearing a disproportionate amount of blacks — rappers, for instance — say the word “faggot”? Does the gay community wonder why the black community is up in arms about the word “nigger” but hasn’t said Word One about “fag”?

      Does the gay community generalize from the massive hatred we receive from the black community and assume 99% of them would either beat us up or drag us to their churches so we’ll see the errors of our evil ways?

      All we see is hatred from the black community. If there are opposing opinions within that community, they need to step up to the plate.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ggreen
      ggreen

      The gay community is as racist as the rest of the US. It may tolerate different races and not openly discriminate as casually as the rest of the US because it isn’t widely accepted to do so.

      That said, the practice of sexually fetishizing certain races is a type of racism/discrimination practiced in the gay community and is widely accepted as normal. (Que Bernice Clifton from “Designing Women” to sing “Black man, black man” or make a Mandingo joke)

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Coffee&Chicory
      Coffee&Chicory

      Of course there are gays within the community that are racist, as there are blacks within the black community that are homophobic and racists and homophobes within every other group of people. Japhy, I see the topic your were aiming for, but the question is not well framed at all.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RichardS
      RichardS

      @ggreen:

      But fancying black men – as we say in the UK – is not really the same as “sexually fetishizing certain races”.
      You’re being too pejorative of other people in your wording, I think.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lesbian Dyke
      Lesbian Dyke

      @Daigan: No it isn’t. The post you refer to only points out that it’s a two-way street, not that it’s okay to be racist.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael W.
      Michael W.

      @Jenna’s Bush: The answer to your question is no, it doesn’t lessen the irony. But hopefully it lessens the vitriol and condescension that comes from some members of the community, including that crap about a need to “educate the blacks.”

      And 58% just feels like a much better number to work with rather than 70% which made it seem like an impossible mountain to climb. It’s as if your boss came into your office or cubicle and gutted out 1/4 of the stack of paperwork he/she laid on your desk earlier that day. Yes, you still have plenty of work to do.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • osocubano
      osocubano

      I believe our community discriminates based not only on race, but on weight, age, looks, gender and income as well.
      And don’t get me started on the “leather queens vs. drag queens” or the “militant lesbians vs. everybody” issues.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Toby M.
      Toby M.

      As an gay asian, I’m more surprised when black gays scream out racist comments to me for no reason (which happens a lot near christopher street). I mean seriously.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marty
      Marty

      The question is not *if* the gay “community” is racist, but how racist it is or is not. The response to that is going to vary depending on what aspect of society you view it through. The gay “community” has a very birds of a feather flock together mentality, perhaps it is a survival tactic, perhaps it is just a shallow need to see oneself reflected in the company one keeps. More than anything, though, the gay “community” is a microcosm of our larger society and America is decidedly a racist nation. Any gay who has bemoaned how much easier life is for “straight people” usually does not realize that the generalization they are making speaks of WHITE “straight people”, but that is indeed who our TV, movies and etc hold up as the ideal.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 12:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RichardS
      RichardS

      @Marty:

      Eh?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 1:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MadProfessah
      MadProfessah

      @Anthony in Nashville: Great comments, Anthony!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 1:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TikiHead
      TikiHead

      The best way to measure our group racism is to grab a random sample of gays and lesbians, mince them in a large blender, centrifuge the mush, then skim off and measure the racism.

      Simple!

      Seriously, I am so tired of the pissing contest between homophobia and racism — they are both evil. One can be gay and racist, one can be a person of color and homophobic. They are not mutually exclusive. One has to do the hard work of opening one’s mind. Not easy.

      Another general principle I see here: suffering does not automatically confer sainthood on the victim. A lifelong sufferer of homophobia, who does not see a larger picture, can still be a racist, sexist twit. That cuts any way you like.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 1:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alex
      Alex

      As many people pointed out, the gay community contains, in amounts proportional (probably) to straight people, racists. But that isn’t really the story. The story, as illustrated by Stephen Colbert taking (fictional) glee at the coming “war” between blacks and gays, is why two communities that are on the same “side” (Democrats) and fighting for the same thing (civil rights, as each group defines), seem to be sources of the very bigotry that they claim to so loath.

      This is an obviously complicated issue, that warrants much more than a blog post. As #31Queen pointed out, religious devotion does not entirely explain away public homophobia from people who claim to represent the black community. A well-known rap artist (I forget which one, sorry) once said something to the effect of “n—— ain’t f—-.” One theory is the historic emasculation of black men (by denying them the ability to support their families, and literally via castration during lynchings) has led to a sensitivity to the undermining of traditional gender rolls.

      Meanwhile, gays (and for that matter, straight people), have spent the last few decades in a country who’s core narrative includes the civil rights movement, in which the black church was an institution for radical change and the tearing down of legal and social persecution. Given this (totally accurate) portrait, it isn’t entirely surprising that gay Americans expect the church to “understand” their own struggle, and to feel disappointment and even resentment towards incarnations of that church when it fails to do so.

      This is not to say that either side is justified in their positions. This is not to say that people in the gay community and those who represent and guide its institutions don’t need to struggle with any lingering racism that might be blighting themselves and their institutions. This is not to say that black individuals don’t need to deeply question how, in light of modern understanding of the nature of homosexuality, certain imperatives within their religious traditions conflict, and what they are going to do about it. I simply mean to try and see where some of us are coming from. Again, this is a brief introduction, and we are all more than our race and sexuality (I’m Jewish, from the Midwest, a bit of a nerd…). But it’s those identities that can help us build a better world.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 1:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Devon
      Devon

      From my personal experience, I do not think gays are any more racist than the general population; we are classist. I think this is a result of experiencing more homophobia from the less educated groups in society. I mean to deny that there is a culture of misoginy and hatred toward homosexuality in certain groups is simply not acknowledging the truth. Certain groups associated with the black community tend to be homophobic (ie: hip hop, churchgoers); so obviously why should gays be accepting of groups they receive hate from? When people criticize the gay community for “racism” I think they need to realize that this general dislike of certain groups is a result of the discrimination we have faced.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 1:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Camilo Arenivar
      Camilo Arenivar

      I will say that I think the media, Queerty included, tends to make sweeping generalizations to make a point or make something seem more interesting to read or watch. Clearly this is the case here.

      The Gay Community is so diverse! That’s one of the things you have to remember. To ask is the Gay Community racist is a huge misnomer because the Gay Community encompasses so many races, especially outside of the largely white gay enclaves of Chelsea and West Hollywood.

      The real question should be, “Is the non-black Gay Community racist?”

      My answer would be, for the most part, just as much as the rest of the White Community. Yes, people have made great strides away from racism but we should not be fooled – racism still exists still in this day and age. However, I think there is no way you can make sweeping generalizations such as answering “yes” to a question like “is the gay community racist.”

      What happened the day after Prop 8 passed was really ugly. But it has deep roots. In the Spring of 2008, the gay community, both the White and the Latino, were overwhelming behind Hillary Clinton’s run for Presidency. By the time the DNC happened, they started to fall in line with Obama, but many still harbored those wounds.

      THEN you have an Obama win for Presidency, a report that blacks turned up at the polls more than in the last election, an unofficial exit poll saying 70% of all blacks voted for the passage of Prop 8 (same exit poll also stated that 80% of all Republicans voted for Prop 8 too, a number that is higher than the amount of blacks that voted for Prop 8 but somehow that was ignored).

      Then, you have a few ignorant white people who called black people the N word in WeHo after Prop 8 followed, telling them they better not come to WeHo if they don’t want their butts kicked. A mass email was sent to people (somehow I ended up on the list) and the media purportedly from an angry gay person using the N word and derogatory words towards Latinos as well and blaming us all for the passage of Prop 8.

      When you are not white, those things STING. And the non-racist gay community, who was aware of these things, should have stood up immediately for equality for all, should have spoken about their intolerance of racial attacks.

      But they did not.

      So, it is not an easy question to answer. I think my answer is:
      The White Gay Community is not racist, but there most definitely are still racists within the gay community, and the non-racist gay community needs to be more vocal of their intolerance of racism and ALL SIDES, white, black, Latino, Asian need to work better on unifying because the supporters of Prop 8 did not see us as a race but as a group of gays and Lesbians, and we are all colors and all affected by the passage of Prop 8, regardless of color or race.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 1:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito
      afrolito

      Is the gay community racist? Of course it is.

      The “gay community” is, and always has been dominated by white men. One only has to pick up a magazine,pop in a porn video, watch a “gay film”, or come to this site, to see and read the white POV. Having said that, gays are really no more or less racist than any other group, but just a reflection of the larger society.

      Is the black community homophobic? Yes, but no more or less so than any other group. To hear white gays tell it, you would think that they had never experienced homophobia in their lives until a black person voted yes on prop 8. We all know how much the 200 million+ white people in this country just love the gays so much.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 1:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • allfavourites
      allfavourites

      Why is it even possible that a human rights issue was decided by a popular vote? Why was that allowed? Why is it not being challenged in courts left and right? Why is that not a real focus of every article on the issue….

      Why is that discussion not up there with the whole who voted for whom nonsense?

      Of course religious people are largely intolerant! Of course gays are more interested in stereotypes displayed to them by the media (white is hot etc)!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 1:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Queen: @<a Actually yes it comes from the same place. its bastardized version but its still there.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 1:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      Yes, members of the gay community can be racist.

      The forms can vary a lot from the mild to the KKgay. Here’s what I have experienced as a black guy:

      a) I thought I was dating a guy in my 20s. We were together for a month. We finally hooked up (yes I am a little slow on the sex part), and the first thing he says is “Oh, I don’t date black guys. i just wanted to sleep with you to see what its like” when I mentioned us dating.

      b) Being at a bar, and having a white friend nearly get in a fight with the wait staff because of theit treatment of me. That was both wonderful (because I had a white friend who got it) and bad (because the wait staff was so obviously racist).

      c) Dealing with Mandigo hunters. “oh you are a black guy. Don’t you have a big dick? I want a big black dick to fuck me.” My new response to that is buy a big dildo because there is a person attached to this dick.

      d) Being excluded by some log cabin republican types at various parties in the 90s while in DC

      e) Being called the n word. That was special.

      f) Having people question how smart I am or in the reverse feeling that they should date me because I am not like other black people.

      g) Once I was on a date, and a guy said after I disagreed with on healthcare (I said I was for unversal healthcare and he was for whatever) that I was saying what I said because I am black.

      h) I had a friend tell me about waking up from sleeping with a guy who was screaming waking up from a nightmare. When he asked his bf of the time why, the bf said because he dreamt my friend had stolen all of money and possesson. My friend is black, and his bf of the time is white. THey aren’t together now.

      i) Reading Dan Savage, Andrwe Sullivan, Tolweroad, Queerty and any number of other sites that don’t look to include diversity either in their staff

      j) Seeing that same thing through out gay media. Apparenntly American is 99 percent gay if you were to follow only gay media. 99 percent white and 99 percent male.

      There are , sadly, a lot more examples.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      Are white people the only racists?

      Ever noticed that when people talk about racism they almost always lead with white people?

      Isn’t that in its self racist?

      Wouldn’t it be better just to be people.

      I do not care if you hate me for being gay or being trans, just so long as you leave me the hell alone.

      I do not care if someone is a bigot as long as they leave me alone.

      Pointing fingers is pointing fingers.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rigso
      Rigso

      Not anymore than the normal population… as far as i’ve seen

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jake
      jake

      Maybe the real question should be,

      Is the gay community segregated?

      My answer: Yes, socioeconomically. It’s quite interesting actually since it looks like a macroscopic view in a microscopic population. That means, there’s no gray area. In small groups, it’s strongly segregated.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daigan
      Daigan

      @Tara:

      Tara the reason we start with white people is because in order for racism to exist there has to be a power imbalance. The power in this country is imbalanced towards white hetero men.

      Racism only exists in the hetero white male normative and the perception of power.

      I am perceived first and foremost as a white hetero male, therefore am perceived to have power. That is the nature of racism and most other “isms” that exist.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jake
      jake

      That means more gay groups are divided by class. It’s pretty awful if you’re not white and experience this because you’re already a subset of the population as a homosexual, and then you’re in a smaller subset. You feel like you’re importance is diminished to be point of being invisible.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jake
      jake

      excuse typo.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tim K.
      Tim K.

      It seems gays tend to respond to this in one of two ways. A small number of persons seemed to see this as some vindication of their own personal racial animus. But nearly all other gay writers, bloggers, and opinion spouters immediately sought to dismiss, discount, or deny this figure and what it had to say.

      There was a lot of creative talk about outreach and errors and even some race-based self-justification. But what seemed to be lacking was much honest discussion about those truths that all seem to want to overlook:

      1)The Black Church is for the most part hugely homophobic

      2) Even non-religious African-Americans are disproportionately politically anti-gay

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Daigan: However that strikes me as circular. Perceptions are inherently flawed and come from a screwed perspective anyway. To say that it is valid to do so is the same as saying that I perceive Asians to be bad drivers so it is OK to prejudge them so. It is self defeating and becomes self fulfilling.

      It seems like what you are saying in the last line is that because others think you have some kind of “power” (An interestingly indefinable quality) that you are then racist, is that your postulation?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RichardS
      RichardS

      @Tim K.:

      No. The Evangelical Church is for the most part hugely homophobic.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      the learning curve is very steep on this issue, because Some People are a bit old fashioned and prideful.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Wayne:

      wayne, you need to quit.
      you are out of style.
      why not focus on gays in the military?
      marriage and Black issues are too deep for your ass.
      you have dug a hole so far down, nobody can hear you.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daigan
      Daigan

      @Tara:

      No, What I am saying is that racism is an issue for “white” folks because we are the ones with the perceived power.

      It is never okay to be racist. But Black, Asian, Latino and other non white folks are not racist because they never have that assumed power. They may discriminate, but racism by definition needs to have the presumption of power and it’s discord of power for it to exist.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alan down in Florida
      Alan down in Florida

      I didn’t have time to read all 50+ previous responses so you’ll forgive me if I duplicate someone else’s comments.

      A) Yes there is racism in the gay community. It is not all pervasive nor is it minimal. It is caused by ignorance and lack of interaction. Just as the more straights get to know openly gay people, racism is reduced by the various races getting to know each other. The growing number of multi-racial Americans, including the President-elect, is an indication that that is happening.

      B)I am a white dude who grew up in a NYC black neighborhood so I have always known and worked with African-Americans. Consequently I don’t buy into stereotypes. Not so most of the gay men I know. Based on their personal interactions, often limited to bars and porn, black men are either screaming drag queens or Mandingos with huge, inviting, threatening cocks and black women are fleshy bull dykes. Logically we should all know it’s not true but it’s out there. Should anyone be surprised that the African-American branch of the GLBT community is suspicious when their white equivalents come a calling. That said…

      C)The African-American branch of the GLBT community needs to do much more work at home. They need to change their own community’s mind about homosexuality. They need to change an environment that is so hostile to gay men that the entire down low phenomenon flourishes. They need to stop the intentional blindness to the staggering number of blatantly, if not openly, gay men and women that they see in church every week. Kick out the queers and there will be no more choirs and music. These people need to be recognized and validated as useful, important members of the black community. They are people and not just stereotypes. And these people need to stand up and demand acknowledgment and acceptance, to do the bridge building between the two communities from within their neighborhoods. This cannot be done by outsiders.

      C) Finally we all need to stop this victimization one-upsmanship. It does not matter whether race and sexuality are comparable or compatible. It doesn’t matter how long or how badly each group has suffered. Both groups have suffered greatly for a long time and both sides need to acknowledge this fact. Neither group has chosen to be outcast. This pissing contest over whose mistreatment has been worse needs to stop. We need to work together to make life better for us all. We all victims of the white patriarchy. The sooner we can agree to the truth of that the sooner we can all come together.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Daigan
      Daigan

      @sparkle obama:

      I think that the conversation that is happening here is important and long overdue. It may not have started in the best of appearances, but I think it’s vital to the survival of all of us.

      If only we could have it in a broader, face to face context.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Daigan: Ok, presumption of power, from whom? From where? How does one define this presumption? Who’s responsibility is it to challenge that presumption.

      If you accept that presumption out the gate then you never bother to verify whether or not it is valid. I will not argue that in some or even many cases it may be, however someone precieving that I have “power” and making that analogous to racism makes no sense and is in and of itself intolerant and prejudiced.

      racâ‹…ism
      –noun
      1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
      2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
      3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

      Might be important to have a cohesive definition of the word.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      i agree that it’s important to continue the conversation, but fools need to be honest and put down the haterade!
      r*cist gays: you are fooling no one with your negativity & nonsense.
      the world is laughing at you and you are staining Our gowns with your backsplash.
      haters, quit now!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 2:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      And now it appears this “new study” is being called into question:

      http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/01/07/7857

      Whether we like it or not, we have to face the fact that a majority of African American voters voted in higher percentages than any other ethnic group to deny gay Americans their civil rights. The question is, what do we do to fix the problem?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Tara:

      darling, i’m sure you have already read a Book, so if that don’t work,
      try looking out the freakin Window.
      we all need to take responsibility and quit the victim envy.
      look at history, please.
      no, we can’t change the past, but we can change the future if we look in the mirror and be honest with ourselves & others.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • An Other Greek
      An Other Greek

      w
      o
      w

      too bad I don’t have time to read all the posts, but I sure will, later when I come back… verrrrrry interested…

      and here’s my comment, out of context (until later)

      YES YES YES, I have seen it all around, the Gay community is racist, and aggressively in denial about it.

      there.

      thank you for indulging me, I can’t wait to read the posts late tonight!

      Good for Queerty for finally BEGINNING to deal with this!

      ———————————————————————

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @sparkle obama: ::Raises eyebrow:: Victim Envy hmmm? I am not a victim. I have never been, I am lucky. I am not envious of it. At the same time I choose not to be, I have been hated, I have been loathed but it does not matter because I choose to keep moving forward. Take responsibility for what exactly? What do you presume I am guilty of?

      I have studied quite a bit of history, worked at a degree in it in fact, please state your point on this more specifically.

      The last point is true, however I think you and I might have different views on what needs to change.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Wayne:

      baby, keep your eyes on the prize.
      Black people will vote Our conscience.
      …which is more than you have, apparently.
      did you even cast a vote for president?
      or did you, in your infinite wisdom write in hillary?
      not to label darling, but you are a tool in so many ways –
      the r*cist, divisive establishment counts on gays like you.
      so honestly, what are We going to do about You??

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @sparkle obama: You sound in talking to Wayne, just as bad as he was. I am sorry but that is the truth.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Tara: @Tara:

      i didn’t say you were “guilty”.
      we must all be “responsible.”
      i’m half “white” myself & was raised by upper middle class educated “whites”.
      yeah, i was “lucky” too in many ways.
      but darling, “luck” is another word for “privilege” sometimes.
      for those to whom much is granted, much is expected or something like that.
      ps
      the luckiest thing for me was somehow maintaing a Black identity in the face of extreme deracination.
      but enuf about me.
      read another book, dear!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Tara:

      fair enuf, tara – but w*yne & i go back a ways.
      ask him yourself.
      did he even vote in nov.??

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Sparkle Obama the only racist here is you. You’ve turned into a hateful bitter person. All you do is spew filth and negativity. You have become everything you say you despise, an old bitter queen. I hope you find a way to let some love back in your heart, because your hatred has made you into a vile and ugly.

      Now, to the matter at hand. I notice that CNN is standing behind their data and has not retracted any of it’s exit polls. ANd the methodology for this new study is also being called into question. Making excuses or trying to ignore the facts will not solve the problem. And the vote on Prop 8 shows that there is indeed a problem with homophobia within the Black community. But as I’ve said before, the question now is what can we do to fix the problem.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Big Black Dyke
      Big Black Dyke

      But Black, Asian, Latino and other non white folks are not racist because they never have that assumed power.

      Moronic bullshit like this is one of the reasons we have to have this conversation. Of course non-whites can be racist. To say otherwise is the same as saying that Black, Asian, Latino and other non white folks are not really human, that they don’t suffer from the same shortcoming of “real” people, i.e. whites. What a tool.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      And Sparkle, to answer yourquestion, I absolutely did NOT vote for Obama. You well know that I have long spoken out against Obama’s associations with hateful anti-gay bigots like Donnie McClurkin. And Obama’s admitted wish to segregate gay Americans into a 2nd class marriage status ( A view that the Supreme Court of Conn. recently ruled was discriminatory to gay people).

      I would never support someone who supports segregation and bigotry. And Obama’s recent friendship with the bigot Rick Warren only convinces me of how right I was not to support Obama.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TheD
      TheD

      @Jeremy Feist:

      Great comment.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      w*yne, i’m not going to quit checking you at every step.
      you have made your own bed.
      you volunteered yourself to be a face of “white” r*cist gay america when you published your anti-obama posts on the WOW report blog last year.
      “be very afraid” (of obama) was your first byline, i believe.
      you trumpeted the “crack in the limo” story on your blog as if it was real news, relevant to gay/hipster voters in any real way.
      you sensationalized sen. obama’s inclusion of rev. donnie mcclurkin in his outreaches to conservative christians and you falsely painted rev. wright as a “racist”, while willfully obscuring the pro-gay views & actions on him and his church, trinity.
      you attempted to paint obama and his wife as enemies of gays and linked them to islam & minister farrakhan in false, misleading ways.
      because of intolerant anti-american loudmouths like yourself, obama was forced to leave his church of 20 years, where his own children were baptised.
      you brought religion into this mess in a completely dishonest way, in a futile, embarrassing attempt to cut obama off at the knees – and then you had the nerve to get mad when conservative christians came after californian’s rights with prop 8!
      you know you never voted in nov. and still you cling to your campaign to blame Black people as a group for the problem of american gays of *all colors*.
      as a clinton acolyte, you “arrogantly” place yourself in competition w/Black people as a favored minority and darling, it isn’t pretty.
      stop feeding into the divisivness!
      we need to stick together and that needs to start with Us.
      w*yne, if it’s all too hard for you to act appropriately, then you need to just forget about Black people.
      We are too complex for you!
      you don’t need to “fix” sh*t about us.
      what you need to do is wash your face, take a pill and sit the f*ck down.
      gays can do better!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Sparkle, or Peejo, or Princess Johnson, or whatever you are calling yourself this month: GET HELP. Seriously, you sound crazy. Reread your rant from above. If anyone is consumed by racism and hatred, it’s you. Speaking out against bigotry and homophobia isn’t racist. Really you are sounding like a crazy person. Get some help.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 3:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      Will we begin to refer James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Rick Warren as white homophobes? Will we begin to regard the Mormon church, the Moral Majority, Focus on the Family as white homophobic organizations. Will we regard these guys as problems with white people in general?

      I accept that homophobia is a problem in the black community, but I’ve noticed that its mostly homophobic whites who have the power to dismantle the rights and human dignity of every gay person, regardless of race, class, sex, or gender-identity.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Wayne: @Wayne:

      i’ma call you “cheryl tiegs”, because you are *modeling* the subject of this thread for everyone.
      keep talking, w*yne.
      the world is watching!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen said “I accept that homophobia is a problem in the black community, but I’ve noticed that its mostly homophobic whites who have the power to dismantle the rights and human dignity of every gay person, regardless of race, class, sex, or gender-identity.”

      I’m not sure I agree with your statement that it’s “mostly homophobic whites”; Whites as a group actually voted by slim majority against the passage of Prop 8.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      @Tara: Sweetie, white people have a very ugly history when it comes to dealing with people who look different from them. People lead with whites when discussing racism because all of white American culture has historical roots in the oppression and marginalization of other groups with darker skin tones. Does slavery, the theft of America from Native Americans, or the internment of Japanese American Citizens after WWII ring any bells? You can’t honestly be that daft.

      I’ll chime in with my comments on this subject later, but I mean, really?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Sparkle said “i’ma call you “cheryl tiegs”

      LOL, ok Sparky I’ll just call you “LuLu” because you really are crazy as hell.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lance
      Lance

      @Big Black Dyke: I have a problem with this argument that racism from non-whites is the same as racism from whites. Racism, like sexism is about power. It’s all about who has it and who doesn’t. Because whites have more power in our society, their racism impacts a bit more than that of a poor black latino woman.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Rob said “Sweetie, white people have a very ugly history when it comes to dealing with people who look different from them. People lead with whites when discussing racism because all of white American culture has historical roots in the oppression and marginalization of other groups with darker skin tones. Does slavery, the theft of America from Native Americans, or the internment of Japanese American Citizens after WWII ring any bells? You can’t honestly be that daft.”

      Are you trying to say that because Whites were racist in their treatment of people of color in the past, and that somehow excuses homophobia and bigotry from people of color against gays in modern times?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Eric
      Eric

      YES THEY ARE. They only care about themselves. And even within their own community, they discriminate. I mean how many times can I hear that a gay black guy is not attactive compared to the cloned A&F wanna be?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Tara: @Tara:
      >>I do not care if someone is a bigot as long as they leave me alone.<<

      put that on a bumber sticker dear!
      –but put down the ayn rand!
      my mother always told us that sh*t was a gateway drug and really the absolute end if you want to be a useful citizen (that is what we want, right??)…
      follow the golden rule: take your stated philosophy a step further, i mean.

      michael jackson said it best:
      “if you wanna make the world a better place/take a look at yourself & make a change!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Big Black Dyke
      Big Black Dyke

      @Daigan:
      Then why does the Korean shopkeeper follow my black ass around the store?
      Why does the Nigerian cabdriver refuse to pick me up?
      Why does the Mexican woman cross the street and clutch her purse when she sees me walking down the street?
      Are these not manifestations of racism?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Eric said “I mean how many times can I hear that a gay black guy is not attactive compared to the cloned A&F wanna be?”

      Your description of a white gay person as “the cloned A&F wanna be” seems to suggest you are the one with a racist interpretation.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Wayne:
      >>Are you trying to say that because Whites were racist in their treatment of people of color in the past, and that somehow excuses homophobia and bigotry from people of color against gays in modern times?<<

      oh my gosh, just keep talking darling.
      you are (anti) intellectual red meat.
      tell it all and teach the children, by your own example.
      simple ign’ance, thy name is w*yne.

      gays can do better!!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tse Chung
      Tse Chung

      Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. One does not have to hold power to hold such beliefs, although holding power may allow one to act more easily on such beliefs.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Wayne:

      well, i think we’ve reached the nadir.
      mother is going swimming now and i want you kids to stay out of trouble, stay out of my purse & READ A F*CKIN BOOK!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Sparkle, I’ll give you credit. For a 70 (or is it 71) year old you are still filled to the brim with spit and venegar (though it hasn’t helped your looks all that much).

      Carry On!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @sparkle obama: Funny you should mention Ayn Rand, in that I hate her. However personal responsibility is the core of the discussion. You illustrate your on prejudice by assuming that I need to “make a change” at its core that is the sentiment I have a problem with. We all could be better, but no one has the right to make someone feel a certain way. Feeling superior in any context is wrong. Extend it further than you do. If you expect things you must give them also. That includes the benefit of the doubt. You cannot assume racism without being yourself a bigot.

      @Rob: History is a bitch, at all levels. I am Irish, does that mean that the English should feel bad? No it was a long time ago. I am German, do I have some cross to bare when it comes to Jewish people? No. If you spend all of your time looking back you miss the changes around you. Within the constructs of those times bad things happened. Bad things still happen. Not because White people are racist, Or Gay people or Because Black people are Homophobic or any number of bigoted assumptions.

      They happen because some people are assholes. Some people will always be assholes. Kill them, Jail them, Silence them, They are still ASSHOLES.

      Not everyone is an Asshole, but anyone who is a bigot is an asshole.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Sparkle Obama said “mother is going swimming now…”

      OMG! Somebody call the paramedics! We all know what happens when OLD DRIED UP WOOD hits the water – It sinks like a stone!!! lol.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Wayne: Hey Wayne.

      Blow it, You sir, are an asshole.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Tara am I supposed to call you a Bitch now?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 4:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Wayne: If you like

      Jan 9, 2009 at 5:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      No nee, I try to show a bit of restraint in my critics, sometime I even employ humor. I find calling people childish and vulgar names like asshole to be a bit infantil. You seem to think name calling works. But to each his or her own.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 5:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sandra O'Connor
      Sandra O'Connor

      Under the Constitution there can be no such thing as either a creditor or a debtor race. We are just one race in the eyes of government.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 5:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tigs
      Tigs

      Just for clarity’s sake, I think some of the disagreement above is a definitional issue. Some people have in recent times articulated a functional difference between prejudice and racism. Prejudice is making judgments of other human beings based on arbitrary categories (race, gender, sexuality). Racism is having the power to reinscribe those prejudices across institutions, or having the institutions already developed reinforce those prejudices.

      A Mexican woman may cross the street and clutch her purse when she sees a black person walking down the street, but it is likely she doesn’t have the power to criminalize your existence– as the system of white supremacy has. All she’s got the power to do is cross the street.

      Just as an (admittedly extreme) example, if one looks at death penalty statistics, the one thing that really stands our most is that the death penalty is most likely to occur when the victim is white. The deaths of racial minorities just don’t seem to count for as much in the US criminal justice system. That’s the power of racism.

      My understanding is that the differentiation between ‘racism’ and ‘prejudice’ is articulated so as to make more clear the way power functions in and across social groups.

      No one is arguing that all groups of people don’t hold prejudices, but rather, I think, that prejudice+oppression=racism.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tongzhi36
      tongzhi36

      The questions for today’s forum should not be a question-it’s understood by most queer people of color(and some queer whites) that the queer community is by and by large racist. From extoifying queer people of color(“oh you’re black-you must have a big dick or “I’m into asians[as if one could be into people-you could be into inanimate objects, leather, underwear, etc. not people) to not acknowleding and strving to address issues unique oto queer people of color(dealing with homophobia and racism). Of course the queer community is racist, but instead of strving to work through this racism, many just opt to go on the defensive and just say "it's a preference[to only be with white men]” and brush off queer people of color as being “too sensitive”

      Jan 9, 2009 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Ok then lets get back to the discussion. The fact remains that CNN stands behind their polling data and even this new study (whose methodology is already being called into question) shows that African Americans voted in favor of the passage of Prop 8 in higher percentages than any other ethnic group. There is a BLATANT problem with homophobia within the Black community, and this is not some new and shocking fact. In fact it might be helpful for some to recall the words of civil rights advocate Coretta Scott King:

      June 8, 2001.
      “We have to launch a national campaign against homophobia in the black community,”

      November 9, 2000.
      “We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say ‘common struggle’ because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination.”

      I for one couldn’t agree more with Coretta’s words.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 5:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tara
      Tara

      @Tigs: I posted the definition of the word Racism, there is no mention of power. And if you are going by that definition then there can be no such thing as a racist person in the common classes as they have no “power” except perceived power.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 5:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      The more I learn about MLK’s widow Coretta Scott King and her views on gay rights the more I’m awed by this amazing woman and her astute observations on equality and the struggle for civil rights.

      Source: Reuters, March 31, 1998.
      Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband’s assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader’s memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights.

      “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” “I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,” she said.

      ——————————————————————————–

      Source: Chicago Sun Times, April 1, 1998, p.18.
      “We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be,” she said, quoting her husband. “I’ve always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy,” King told 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton, days before the 30th anniversary of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.’s assassination on April 4, 1968. She said the civil rights movement “thrives on unity and inclusion, not division and exclusion.” Her husband’s struggle parallels that of the gay rights movement, she said.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Tigs:

      The proble with this paragraph is that you don’t take into account population differences.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 5:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere – MLK

      There really are no excuses. Racism does not excuse bigotry and homophobia.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      I wouldn’t say the gay community is racists. Such a conclusion would be so mindless and lazy.

      But, judging by the gay media (print, online, pornography, entertainment) and the racial dynamics within gay meccas, I believe we can conclude there is a class bias and a bizarre amount of eurocentricism/and or white privilege.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • damien
      damien

      Yes, there is racism in the gay community as there is in the straight community.

      The major problem I have with racism in the gay community is that the community is supposedly very progressive. We are very quick to reprimand a particular community of people who disagree with our fundamental beliefs (i.e. conservative religious people), but we almost always fail to reprimand our own community for its underlying bigotry.

      The LGBT community is often progressive only when it’s in our own favor, which oftentimes makes us not very progressive at all.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      I’ve yet to hear anyone say any different.

      A person can condemn homophobia in the black community white condemn singling out out blacks despite being faced with larger more powerful racial enemies by the gay community.

      This isn’t an either/or situation Wayne.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RichardR
      RichardR

      @Daigan: I absolutely don’t buy your definition of ‘racism’ as requiring a power imbalance. I do understand that to be a broadly accepted component of racism in some circles, particularly academic.

      Prejudice occurs when we attribute a particular behavior we’ve observed in a single individual to all members of that group.

      It’s dumb to say, for example, that all blacks are religiously-based homophobes, when in fact many blacks are neither religious nor anti-gay.

      That said, it’s perfectly clear by now that religion, whether the black church, LDS, or fundamentalist Christianity, played a hugely important role in the passage of Prop 8.

      But, is the gay community racist? Of course, but as many posters have pointed out, so is our larger society. That’s no excuse, but it’s reality and we need to deal with and grow past it.

      For me, an old white sissy from a background of privilege, it’s an article of faith to be very consciously aware of when I’m making a negative judgement based solely on an individual’s racial or religious or class demographics. To make that sort of judgement not only is dumb and unfair, it’s self-limiting.

      Rather than racism, especially, I think we need to think about other-ism. It’s probably natural to feel discomfort with anyone who’s unlike us. It’s also greatly rewarding to move past that discomfort to our shared humanity.

      Conversations like this — thank you, Japhy — are useful in helping us do that.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Citizen:

      Excuse me

      …while condemning out…

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen said: @Wayne:

      I’ve yet to hear anyone say any different.

      A person can condemn homophobia in the black community white condemn singling out out blacks despite being faced with larger more powerful racial enemies by the gay community.

      I’m not understanding quite what it is you are trying to say. You mind repeating that?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      This isn’t an either/or situation Wayne.

      But this very thread of coversation frames it that way. We are asked is the gay community racist because we reacted negatively to the news that African American voted by higher percentages than any other ethnic group to pass Prop 8. But the gay community did not make accusations. Several very respected news outlets reported the fact that 70& of the Black community voted for Prop 8. And they stand by their reporting!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      (typo) should read: 70%

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dgz
      dgz

      1st. This “study” is ridiculous. Exit polls aren’t “studies;” they — by definition — cannot lie unless there’s either selection bias or dishonest answers. There are now procedures that make selection bias extremely difficult. And dishonest answers would most likely skew the other way. THIS IS NOT DATA THAT CAN BE REINTERPRETED.

      2nd. i really think we should just cease and desist with discussion prompts that engage exclusively in glittering generalities. haven’t we seen this before? when used against us?

      3rd. are there racist gays? of course. but the gay community is the ONLY minority group that cuts through all strata of society. race, class, creed — we’re all in the same spitoon. just by identifying as “gays” or “the LGBT” we’re inclusive. i would argue that the LGBT community is the most accepting of difference in reality, but also the most likely to totally disregard convention (and good taste) by making offensive jokes or using unPC language. why? because many of us are outcasts, renegades. that’s how many had the strength to come out (or coped with it). that’s not necessarily a positive thing, but it’s true, in my experience.

      BTW, you all NEED to stop arguing about the definition of racism. some of you are using the feminist theory definition wherein any “ism” can only exist in a power relationship. others are using common vernacular (i.e. racism = discrimination based on race). since this isn’t taking place in a classroom, let’s all just stick to common definitions and pick our battles, mkay?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      I’ve yet to hear a person say that homophobia in the black community shouldn’t be addressed. What I’ve heared is antagonism toward singling out black people when, say, the white yes on prop 8 vote was much more effective towards pushing prop 8 into law.

      @Wayne:

      If you’d like to give me information on news concerning those “several respected news outlets,” and how “they stand by their reporting”, please link and lets examine. Exit polls are made up of many factors including time and location.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      Considering that (white) gays grew up in the same culture as everyone else, they are just as racist (and sexist) as everyone else. Afterall, racist people can be gay.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Trey
      Trey

      There is definitely a problem with racism in the gay community. Most displays of overt racism that have been directed at me have come from white gay men..usually in the form of a left-handed compliment. I’ve also been refused service and denied entry into clubs. As a gay black man, it can be depressing.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RainaWeather
      RainaWeather

      also…

      FUCK ALL THESE NON SCIENTIFUC POLLS AND “STUDIES”. STATISTICS ARE BY AND LARGE BULLSHIT!!!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 6:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen said “…the white yes on prop 8 vote was much more effective towards pushing prop 8 into law.””

      As an ethnic group Whites voted AGAINST the passage of Prop 8 not for it.

      Concerning the respected news outlets that reported on the exit polling information, they included just about every mainstream news organization from CNN to the AP. None of them have retracted their stories or rebuked the polling data. Have you heard of a single news outlet that has reputiated their reporting on the story?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 7:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Trey:

      I’m going to be a big flirt but judging by your myspace pics, I say fuck em. You seem cool and you’re handsome as fuck.

      I’d also like to remind people that people of color can be racist too and a white person can be equally offended by racism. Sure it might now hit them as much but racism is still wrong.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 7:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      Assuming 70% is the correct number, can you really say that 30%of Cali’s 7% black population is more influential than 48% of California’s 68% white population.

      Racial scapegoating is ultimately a loosing battle for the LGBT community and it will continue to divide us instead of foward us. The biggest loosers of this debate are black lgbt people. Unfortunately I’m not surprised the white gay community is so happy to throw them out for obvious reasons.

      NO ONE retracts exit poll data, even when that data doesn’t resemble the final data. Give me a break Wayne.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 7:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • soman
      soman

      I don’t think we are more racist, but since the gay community is more sexually open, we are much more open with our sexual preferences.

      With that said, I do think that it’s an issue. It’s great to be open about our preferences, but many do so without understanding the reasons why, or care to think twice about it.

      And too many times I have read on online profiles being not into this race or that race, which is fine, but the tone of many of these lead me to believe that it’s not just a sexual preference, but they wouldn’t even want another race they are attracted to as even friends.

      One odd thing I seem to notice is the caucasian guys, or whomever, that are specifically into one race, seem to be even more insensitive – thinking that since they are attracted to and surround themselves with another race, that it precludes them from being insensitive, or racist.

      I left Michigan because the gay community there was so one-note, and even though I now live in San Francisco (which is MUCH better), there is still an undertone of a race-clique.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 7:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from  England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      @The Gay Numbers:
      Yep.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 7:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen, the African American voting block is now at 10% some have suggested it was slightly higher than the average due to Obama’s extensive voter outreach. And YES I absoultely believe that when 70% of African American display a bigotted and unjust vote against gay Americans it is an estremely important aspect of the Prop 8 vote. No other ethnic group, not Whites, not Asians, nor the Latino community. There is a blatant problem with homophobia in the Black community. And as my earlier post of Coretta Scott Kings quote attest, it’s a problem that many have been aware of for quite awhile.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 7:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      NO ONE retracts exit poll data, even when that data doesn’t resemble the final data. Give me a break Wayne.

      Are you kidding? If the exit polling data that a major news outlet used and based it’s reporting on was PROVEN to be false there would be a GOLD RUSH RACE by competitors to openly discredit them!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 7:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      And speaking of news outlets, they’ve just announced a snow storm is heading towards NYC (4-7 inches ugggg!). I’ll check in on this thread later. I need to go get some salt for my stoop. Later

      Jan 9, 2009 at 7:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      Well Wayne I got nothing left for you. If you want to scapegoat blacks. Go ahead. I’m done.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      P.S. Someone send Wayne a copy of :Silent Racism: How Well Meaning White People Perpetuate The Racial Divide”

      I’m broke.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 8:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen said: “Well Wayne I got nothing left for you. If you want to scapegoat blacks. Go ahead. I’m done.”

      Citizen, Speaking out against a bigotted and unjust vote that was displayed by the majority of African Americans in California is not scapegoating. It’s standing up for equality and standing against bigotry.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 8:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      I don’t see you standing up to the whites.

      Scapegoater.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 9:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Trey
      Trey

      I used to work for cable news. CNN and the rest can be guilty of parroting the facts and figures that their competitors trumpet. It’s all to do with the news cycle.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 9:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito
      afrolito

      WOW! at how this thread has turned into a full fledged trainwreck. Wayne and his frothy scapegoating of blacks for the passage of prop 8 is kinda funny, sad, and telling.

      Jan 9, 2009 at 10:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TikiHead
      TikiHead

      “No. 128 · RainaWeather

      also…

      FUCK ALL THESE NON SCIENTIFUC POLLS AND “STUDIES”. STATISTICS ARE BY AND LARGE BULLSHIT!!!”

      FESTIVAL!!! FESTIVALLLL! KILLLL EVERYONE!!!!!

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TikiHead
      TikiHead

      sorry — Star Trek moment

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TikiHead
      TikiHead

      @No. 140 · Citizen

      “I don’t see you standing up to the whites.

      Scapegoater.”

      Huh. So we quite rightly point out that victims of racism ought to find common cause with victims of homophobia, and you (presumably honestly, I just think you’re a stupid, vain asshole) want to know why we don’t stand up to whites?

      Really?

      Jan 9, 2009 at 11:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mister C
      Mister C

      Well, All I can say is this there is a lot of work for all of us to do. But I must comment on one post here and it’s from Wayne he said:

      As an ethnic group Whites voted AGAINST the passage of Prop 8 not for it.

      GURL PLEASE, That statement is a bold face lie. While polling does a pretty much have a clear view of the issue. I don’t believe that at all. For one you’re fixated on making The African American Community TOTALLY HOMOPHOBIC. While YES we have folks of our race that are. Are you saying that Whites aren’t?

      HMMMMMMMM Lets see
      The Catholic Church in the USA 92% Caucasian
      The Mormom Church 99% Caucasian remember pumped out 20 mil for passing Prop 8
      The Southern Baptist Church 99% Caucasian
      and have hundreds of thousands of members and they’re not HOMOPHOBIC? Ya think not? then you like fried ice cream

      Homophobia is not designated to a race it’s an idiotic mentality shared by all races and we all need to educated them on not being that way. Not looking to blame one set of people who uses homphobic slurs when yours do the same. Because just as sure as 50 cent has done it so has Kid Rock. What’s the difference? NOTHING

      When you choose to blame one group for something when yours do the same. You are not a part of the solution but very much a chronic part of the problem and no one wins!

      We all must do BETTER as a ONE LGBTQ COMMUNITY

      Jan 10, 2009 at 12:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chuck
      Chuck

      I think one has to consider just how hard our lives as gay people are in a straight, religious world. We are forced to live out fantasies because reality is almost always tragic and harsh. Some in the gay community accomplish this fantasy by living their lives as self appointed nobility (“Queens”.) When one’s own life is difficult and supressed, forced into hiding, it is very tempting to live imaginary idealized lives. In American culture, the ideal has long been the white upper classes.” I would venture to guess that many of us seek to validate these fantasies of being better than the boring, naff, straights (most of us are!) by realizing our idealized fantasy of a white boyfriend because in doing so, we are achieving the pinnacle of what every blue blooded woman wants. Not all gay people think this way, many do not. But if there is racism, and I think it is becoming less and less prevalent, much as we gays want the best food, the best cities in which to live, and the best Hermes scarf, we naturally want the cultural perception of the best life partner. Gays have good taste. Taste is subjective, but also defined by one’s culture. I think that is the reason for this issue.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 12:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • damien
      damien

      @Chuck: Amazingly, if you replace the word “gay” in most of what you wrote, then you’d be describing exactly what a lot of Blacks went through in the 1960s and what many of them still deal with today.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 1:25 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rococo
      rococo

      @Daigan: sure, here in the US that’s true, but what about in India….are indian’s racist….are africans racist. What’s the point of focusing only on white-america and it’s problems.

      the term “people of color” applies to anyone non-white, as if the experience of a latino-american is the same as an indian-amerinca, is the same as an asian-american, et al. the term itself is racist. using the term is a form of racism…a line of thought something akin to, “well, you wouldn’t understand, you not a person of color,”why, because i’m a white, rich guy. you don’t know me!

      one nitwit said something to the effect of: they didn’t let me into bars cause i was black and they sexualize me cause i’m black….well to the love you or hate you?make up your mind…oh, right, it’s more complicate than that, you freakin nitwit.

      I’m racist cause i don’t have asian friends….pfff whatever….i’m racist cause i don’t date latin guys…pfff whatever.

      what about those lunatics in time square talking about the white devils on a freakin microphone…that is racist, right?

      what about spike lee’s depiction of Malcolm X’s grandmother getting raped by a white man in his film “Malcolm X” when in fact she was in love with a white man and had several more children by the same white man?
      What about the prison scene where Malcolm is learning about Islam and looks up white and black in the dictionary?Simple right?

      ….i looked up brown in the dictionary and one definition is “done to perfection”?

      Wow, call me crazy but was that amazing piece of cinema, a tour-du-force, with numerous feats of incredible acting, racist?…i think so. but it was still freakin amazing….

      what about white people being obsessed with tanning?

      But NO, it’s always the evil white rich guy,

      As if chinese people weren’t racist, or foreign born cabdrivers in nyc. it’s not just “whitey” that won’t pick you up on 125 and lenox. in fact, it’s probably not whitey not picking you up on 125 and lenox….

      as if slavery never went on anywhere else in the world, as if east africa hadn’t had a significantly longer and larger history of the slave trade dominated by africans, as opposed to the european slave trade in east africa.

      what about Ghandi, didn’t he start in africa uplifting indians working there first….aren’t there tons of indians working now, building the future megalopolises of Dubai in deplorable conditions while watching rich men have sex with white russian girls stuck in a world of prostution. do you think some nice-seeming little arab lady never talked about all the “white whores” corrupting her city. racism exists in everywhere and no where.

      the whole strain of the argument going on here is puncutated by inflamatory dushies(that would be me) and well meaning, well read, informed people who don’t even no where to begin with this debate…..

      is the gay community racist. I’m not, if you’re not, well that great too. I’m doing my part…the rest is none of my business.

      a great discussion, kind of, and i’m inspired that some 19 yo kid summed it up so nicely in about a paragraph….old people are racist (they also smell funny and that seems to be universal), young people are fun and open (and we hate you for it, again, seems to be universal), every generation is getting better but it’s still rough out there.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 1:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • damien
      damien

      @The Gay Numbers:

      “i) Reading Dan Savage, Andrwe Sullivan, Tolweroad, Queerty and any number of other sites that don’t look to include diversity either in their staff

      j) Seeing that same thing through out gay media. Apparenntly American is 99 percent gay if you were to follow only gay media. 99 percent white and 99 percent male.”

      BRILLIANTLY SAID!

      Jan 10, 2009 at 1:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Chuck: @<a I don’t know if there is less racism. But I do agree with you on one point “The gay community constantly feels the need to not live in reality.” Not only about race, but also economic issues. If the national gay media is to be believe there are no low income gays- whether they are white, black or whatever. They simply are not shown. My pet theory about Brokeback Mountain as I may have mentioned is that part of the reason it had cross over appeal was that it showed gays as not living in the fantasy world of a gay ghetto, but instead low income guys trying to support themselves.

      Now, admittedly, I have my bias there because growing up poor and living poor in my early 20s was my life. I had to come out under those conditions. People talk about “just moving out, and leaving” but what happens if you are poor and doing this? It change the dynamics a lot. No one ever talks about the lives of blue collar and low income gays. They don’t exist.

      I see that as a writer too. This need to create the gay fantasy world. It kind of worries me (although I quickly ignore the fear) because my stuff is very non-traditional -queens in the gay ghetto stuff. I mean part of the reason I loved Priscilla queen of the desert was that it stuck a bunch of drag queens where they were no suppose to be- how cool is that? My stuff goes even further. I am wondering if there is even an audience for it? But I digress. The truth is I am going to write what i want write.

      Anyway, I am meandering here. The point is I somewhat agree. But, being black, I have seen a lot of different forms of racism. What you describe is only one type- the “I can’t help it because that’s what I like” type. I am less bothered by that type unless they are rude. Mainly to me, you can’t force someone to be attracted to what they aint attracted to. What I don’t like is them being nasty about it like “how dare you think you got a chance with me”a nd its clear its racial. I mean- thats happened to me maybe once or twice so its really rare. But I have seen it.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 1:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @damien: I have been saying the same thing for quite awhile. The parallel between my experiences as a black guy and a gay guy are starting to overlap. It feels like on the gay issues is where I was in the 1980s with people’s attitude. I could cut and paste some fo the right wing shit for example and replace gay with black, and it would be verbatim.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 1:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @TikiHead:

      Calling me a stupid, vain asshole won’t do anything for you Tiki.

      And yes, you are a racist scapegoater.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 3:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      BTW

      Why shouldn’t we start calling that “gay community” for what it really is?

      Gay Community = Whites first

      Non-white LGBT = after thought

      Its time people start calling James Dobson, Rick Warren, Pat Robertson and the rest WHITE HOMOPHOBES.

      Its we call the Mormon church and the moral majority and most of the republican party for what they are, WHITE HOMOPHOBIC groups.

      No longer should we allow WHITE privilege turn white evil into simple evil sans their race.

      If a gay media entity or organization is dominated by whites and whos agenda focuses on whites, we ought to call them WHITE GAY organizations, not just Gay organizations.

      LGBT people of color, stand up.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 3:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nameliss
      nameliss

      Hi i most say i am a gay man with a lot of hate i am trying too change.It is not as it may sound. I am living in A hood with carters new to my her an they do not like gays or dogs in my hood i am all so not liked for well being wight .An i love my pets an they are mean to us! so the bad news is if i say any thing at all my own call me a hater at times when I not so then i start heating all over!

      Jan 10, 2009 at 4:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nameliss
      nameliss

      Hi i most say i am a gay man with a lot of hate i am trying too change.It is not as it may sound. I am living in A hood with carters new to my her an they do not like gays or dogs in my hood i am all so not liked for well being wight .An i love my pets an they are mean to us! so the bad news is if i say any thing at all my own call me a hater at times when I not so then i start heating all over!

      @Chris: I now .you are right

      @Citizen:

      Jan 10, 2009 at 4:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nameliss
      nameliss

      @Citizen: no sit down an shot up

      Jan 10, 2009 at 4:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      I used to live Nashville Tennessee. I was brought up in an upper middle class family that was pretty open minded and racism was not allowed to develop. I am grateful for that. But I did see it and hear it outside our home. I came out in my late 20′s and I had some pretty preconceived ideas of what gay folk were going to be like. I thought I was becoming part of a community that was open minded, socially progressive and evolved. Was i wrong. Most gays that I encountered were either racist, white trash rednecks or snooty, elitist southern boys who looked their nose down at anybody that was not part of their “back ground”. Back then I would have told you that gay people are racist. Now I live in Vancouver B.C., yeah, guys here have their sexual preferences but I hardly ever meet anyone who makes racist comments, or stupid statements like I heard in Nashville. I have even grown myself. I have had sex with guys from racial groups that hardly even existed in Nashville and most of the time it was really great, so don’t knock anybody till you’ve given them a chance. My partner and I are part of a super group of guys who are in Asian/Caucasion relationships. Most of them met their Asian partners in the states while in school and in order to be together they had to come to Canada because the U.S. would not let their Asian partners stay. I love them all dearly. So my point is that racism in the gay community is probably equal to that of the larger community. It all depends on your upbringing, religious background, the area of the country you
      are from and the one you now live in. We are all products of our environments. So I do think its impossible and unfair to label or infer that gay people are racist as a whole, because its not that simple. I think its also unfair to label black folk as homophobic because it all depends on the same conditions for them as well.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 5:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JH
      JH

      Japhy – while there is still a lot of extreme response in these comments, it is much more measured that after you posted three black Morning Goods in a row and watched the tornado. See what happens when you treat your readers with respect? They respond in kind. When you provoke, they rage. Keep lifting things up. Good luck.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen said: I don’t see you standing up to the whites.

      Scapegoater

      ——–

      Then you have not been paying attention! I’ve spoken out STRONGLY about the Mormon church and their role in the passage of Prop 8. I’ve blogged about it. This very site (Queety) used one of my photos from the protest marches in NY!!!!

      I speak out against bigots. I don’t care what color they are.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      typo (Queerty, lol. not Queety)

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Mr. C said: But I must comment on one post here and it’s from Wayne he said:

      As an ethnic group Whites voted AGAINST the passage of Prop 8 not for it.

      GURL PLEASE, That statement is a bold face lie

      ——–

      That is not a lie. You may not like the truth, but every major news organization reported on this and the exit polls confirm that Whites as an ethnic group voted against the passage of Prop 8 by a slim majority.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Vartan Hagopian
      Vartan Hagopian

      Yes this is a proven fact.Formerly only about 68 percent of British males were homosexual but eventually they realized that homosexuality was so rampant within the territories of their Scottish and Irish neighbours( who themselves adopted the practice from the Arabs) that the British decided to increase the incidence among their own population to 100 percent. ibid. Encyclopedia of Culture and History

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Another thought on this “scapegoat” defense. I find it amazing that anyone would imply that speaking out against a clearly unjust vote displayed by the majority of African Americans concerning Prop 8 in California is somehow racist. The comment
      “I don’t see you standing up to the whites” really is emblematic of the level of denial on this thread. How can anyone say that? Were the Mormons spared the wrath of the gay community? Was Rick Warren spared because he is white? Of course not. The gay community has RAILED against the Mormons and their deplorable actions. Rick Warren has literally been called out as a bigot, there have been MAJOR protests organized against them! But for some reason there are those who feel the gay community must draw the line and refuse to speak out against the obvious anti-gay bigotry displayed by the majority of African American voters in California concerning Prop 8. Any who do are called racist and scapegoaters.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tommy
      tommy

      Living both in Michigan, just outside of Detroit and California, I can say that the black community is not aware. Their exposure is limited to what is preached on Sunday. Their deep belief system is based on the Church. Just as the Mormons is. Seeing HIV ravage both the black and Hispanic communities, we as the gay community have failed at getting the word out. We fail at saving even our own from aids. So how do we rate at showing a united and healthy community? I say we get a failing grade! We should stop yelling and start educating, give people a chance to understand we are their friends, the people in their neighborhood. I am so saddened by the loss of prop 8, as a gay man who lost two husbands to aids and has fought the disease for 22 years, I know even in our community we can be bigots. Try being poz and see just how pretty we are with each other. Until we care about everyone, even those who don’t understand us, we are no different then the “bigots” we target to “hate” ourselves. By no means am I against boycotts, and protests, we need to be heard. Just not saying and acting like evil mean spirited fags. Show the world we can be bigger then they, compassionate to ignorance, and willing to explain ourselves in a honorable style. We show just how ugly and judgmental we can be every day, the bears look down on the circuit boys the pretty boys look down on the old ones, God bless anyone over weight and don’t look at anyone who chooses not to fit into any group. We are very bigoted and I for one am ashamed of our community in this way. We are all still human, being gay does not make us a super enlightened group, we are just human and all to often we show our true colors. So we need to allow our differences, ban together, allow people to see we are just like them and be tolerant! We can’t ask something of others we are unable to do ourselves. Homophobia is ramped in the black and Hispanic community, we need to help our brothers and sisters come out of the closet.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Damien
      Damien

      Who cares

      Jan 10, 2009 at 11:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Georg
      Georg

      Why should we blame ourselves for the passage of Proposition 8? Why is it our fault that 52% of Californians are bigots?

      Jan 10, 2009 at 1:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • seitan-on-a-stick
      seitan-on-a-stick

      Racism: The “internet world” versus the “real world”

      The internet is really when gays were able to pick their preferred partner like some Sims created ideal. Some cruising sites become more urban and people of color populated like Adam 4 Adam and others seems a vast wasteland of causasians like ManHunt.

      In the real world, while there are bars that cater to specific clientele, like Chi Chiz on Christopher Street in Gay Mecca New York as being frequented by Gay African-Americans, less larger cities across America with Gay Life often are racially mixed and, yes Virginia, even gender mixed.

      In reality, Gays are far more likely to date outside of their race than the general populous which has been studied and proven numerous times through numerous sources.

      Unfortunately, the old adage that “Shit Floats” is true when attributed toward online anonymous blogging life, where “haters” assume multiple voices to back their outrageous claims. We get to lie, divide, hate and blame like the rest of society. There is evidence that African-Americans may have voted in higher numbers for Prop 8 in California but we must also note that we were in the process of electing an African-American President, so black turnout is expected to be higher.

      The enemy of Gays is not Blacks (How does that even make sense?) when the ENEMY of Gays in these ballot initiatives is the FINANCING and CONFUSION and the “Conquer” and “Divide” tactics of barbarians (which could read Republicans). We did not get the message out clear enough, the Barack Obama campaign did not make it’s stand on this Ballot clear enough, the media led by tabloid-ian CNN preferred to stoke flames on race and there we have it: A Tempest in a Teapot!

      Phew, aren’t you glad to find out that the Gay Community is no more racist than general society. In truth, less so!

      Jan 10, 2009 at 2:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @seitan-on-a-stick: My exampses and those of others are not from the internet. And dating is not the same as not being racist as my examples illustrate. For example, a white guy dating me who says “I am not black enough” in terms of he wanted a thug is still acting in a racist manner . The problem with many of you is you reduce ALL to attraction. Its not just someone dating you but how they see you. Do they act in a racist manner. I k now a plenty of people (or used to before I got them out of my life) who would put up with such crap in my 20s because at least they had a good looking guy and great sex although emotionally the relationship was based on some fucked up premises about race.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 3:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @Tara: Tara, you said “Within the constructs of those times bad things happened. Bad things still happen.”

      All racism that minority groups currently experience has heavy roots in the past. What you typed is a gross oversimplification of historical racism, and, again, why I still believe that so few people are equipped to have this conversation.

      Read a book. I’m done with the lesson for today and forever.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 4:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      Despite the fact that they were a slim majority, white homophobes still had more financial, social, population, and political power to pass prop 8.

      Rick Warren and the Mormon church are being hit because of religion, not because of their race. I’ve never seen the terms “white homophobe” Rick Warren or “white homophobic” Mormon church.

      White homophobia is a bigger threat than homophobia from any other group.

      Its time we stop calling white homophobes by only their religion, class, occupation. Its time we start holding whites to the standards they put upon non-white people. Its time we start having conversations about homophobia and whiteness, not people who happen to be white but WHITE/Caucasian homophobia.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 5:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @JH:

      I rest my case

      “But, judging by the gay media (print, online, pornography, entertainment) and the racial dynamics within gay meccas, I believe we can conclude there is a class bias and a bizarre amount of eurocentricism/and or white privilege.”

      Jan 10, 2009 at 5:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rick
      rick

      gays have been in the minority of both the majority of the majority and the majority of the minorities. this causes a struggle on multiple interconnected but seperate fronts, with religion planted firmly in the middle of it all.

      everything that goes on in that which we call human life and civilization as we know it is the same.

      what the situation needs is a good anthropologist. all the evidence is out there. it just needs someone to look at the entire history in an unbiased way with no forgone conclusion of absolute truth and certainty. something that can’t be done with religion in the mix.

      fortunately the trends are with the gay population even in the minorities within the minorities.

      we are at a paradigm shift. might take awhile, but the shift is happening. i am just amazed i am seeing it in my lifetime.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 5:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen, you said I am scapegoating Blacks, and you don’t see me standing up to whites. But that’s exactly what I’ve done. And can prove it. And the gay community has stood up to the Mormons and Rick Warren and their being white did not protect them. Your argument does not hold water.

      Gays have to stand up against bigotry, it does not matter if the bigots are White or Black. Bigotry is wrong and must be fought against no matter which community espouses it. That includes the African American community whose vote majority vote clearyly displays their anti gay bigotry.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 5:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      typo, should read: whose majority vote clearly displays their anti gay bigotry.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 5:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen you seem to be saying that it’s ok for Gays to speak out against Mormons, and Rick Warren, but Gays shouldn’t speak out against the African American community even though 70% of African American who voted in California supported the passage of Prop 8. That discrepency is, in and of itself, racist. It’s ok with you to fight back against the bigotry displayed by White Mormons or a White Pastor like Rick Warren, but you label anyone who speaks out against the anti-gay bigotry within the Black community as scapegoaters. Doesn’t that make you racist against whites?

      as Martin Luther King said: ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere’

      No one should get a pass on bigotry!

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      But you aren’t attacking Warren or the Mormon church racially. Why isn’t anyone telling Warren and the Mormon church that as white people, they should have learned from the civil rights movement that persecuting gays is the same as persecuting blacks and that whites, like warren and the Mormon church, oughta know that?

      Instead of attacking Warren or the Church through their race, you attack them through their religion. Instead of attacking black people through their religion, you attack them through their race.

      Racial double standards.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      Please. There hasn’t been one time where I said black people are above criticism. Copy and paste any example you can make toward your lie.

      I’m merely pointing out the double standards used in this debate.

      If we’re allowed to call reference homophobes who happen to be black as black homophobes, we ought to call homophobes who are white white homophobes. I never said anyone couldn’t criticize black people, but keep running with that lie if it makes you feel better.

      Its time we ask, which races homophobes are more dangerous to the entire LGBT movement, black homophobia or white homophobia?

      I’m not saying we choose which one to hit hard, I’m simply asking which one is more powerful, dangerous and why.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen, you don’t seem to want to accept the truth. WHITES AS AN ETHNIC GROUP VOTED AGAINST THE PASSAGE OF PROP 8. The overwhelming majority of African Americans as an ethnic group voted in support of Prop 8. The Gay community has not held their fire and have called Rick Warren every name in the book. Have you been to a protest lately. The Mormons have been called out as well. But you seem to feel the African American community should get a free pass.

      You are wrong.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Please. There hasn’t been one time where I said black people are above criticism. Copy and paste any example you can make toward your lie.

      WTF?! You implied that I was a hypocritical racist scapegoater!!

      your exact words: “I don’t see you standing up to the whites.

      Scapegoater”

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      Wayne

      You don’t want to accept the truth. White homophobia is a greater threat to LGBT people of all colors than any other racial group.

      Whites have the most financial, political, and social power than any other group so does its homophobes.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      I called you a scapegoater because that is what you are.

      Why aren’t you focusing on the racial aspect of the mormon church and Rick Warren?

      You can say black homophobes. most be framed racially while white homophobes should be framed through means other than race because of the statistics. Give me a break.

      White homophobia is the great racial threat to LGBT people.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      correction: Citizen said: “Please. There hasn’t been one time where I said black people are above criticism. Copy and paste any example you can make toward your lie”

      WTF?! You implied that I was a hypocritical racist scapegoater!!

      your exact words: “I don’t see you standing up to the whites.

      Scapegoater”

      So you say you’ve never said that Blacks are above criticism, yet when someone speaks out against the obvious bigotry displayed by the majority of African Americans who voted in California you call them a “scapegoater”. I don’t need to “lie”, your own words speak for themselves.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Wayne: And what of Oregon where whites voted for banning marraige. The population there is 93.4 percent White. Blacks account for 2.5 percent of the population.

      Arizona which is 89.3 percent white? Nebraska which 93.5 percent white? Montanna which is almost 93 percent white.

      In many cases the bans passed by 65 percent or more.

      There are bans in 30 states.

      Your lies only work so long as one does not do any research and wants to believe your lies. But you are still a lying racist piece of shit.

      I will be honest. You are a bigot. I know more expect you to get the argument than I expect a scorpion to stop stinging. But, it’s pretty sad you have spent last few days trying to convince people of something that I proved wrong in less than 10 minutes of researching google.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      You said that I was a scapegoater because I didn’t stand up to whites. You are wrong. As I’ve said this very website has used my photos from Protests against Mormons (who are as white as can be)! You refuse to accept the truth or take responsibility for your own false accusations.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Gay Numbers can you post one single lie that I have written or one single bigotted statement I have made? Throwing out false accusations shows that you are the liar.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Wayne: I have now provided you with real world data. Respond to that rather than generally rambling for the purpose of avoding your own ignorance.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      When someone singles out the black vote when the white vote is 5 times or more than the black vote, that is racial scapegoating.

      You don’t stand up against the mormon church as representatives of white homophobia, you stand against them as conservative/religious. You stand against black people because of their race, not because of their conservativism/religion. That is racial scapegoating. Period. You’ll never change that.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Wayne: A lie by ommission a lie. I could be asked whether the U.S. is at war with 4 countries, and say no. Technically, I have not lied either because we are at war with 2. but its still a lie. That you do not mention any data that refutes the thesis you are trying to build here is how you lie. Please use these 5th grade debating techinques with someone who is not able to get what you are doing.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Citizen: Bingo, and his racism becomes that much more apparent when one looks at the bans across the country and the racial make up of the states in which the bans have passed. Seriously, how can one use race as a criteria when you know bans have passed in MT and states like Nebraska? The onlyw ay to do that is willfully to ignore contra information to one’s pre determined bent to blame a particular group.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Speaking out against homophobia is not racist nor is it bigotry. It is the only true defense of equality.
      As the late great Coretta Scott King who spoke against the homophobia within the Black community and was quoted as saying: “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” “I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.”

      I agree with her wholeheartedly. But I guess you Citizen and The Gay numbers thinks Coretta was a bigot too.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      “We have to launch a national campaign against homophobia in the black community.” Coretta Scott King 2001.

      Yep. Sounds exactly like what I’ve said. She must be a bigot.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      Oh Wayne, you are beyond logic. Go back into your racist cave. Evil people throughout history have used good quotes to justify their desire to create war and division.

      You are no different.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @The Gay Numbers:

      I’ll repeat it again.

      “When someone singles out the black vote when the white vote is 5 times or more than the black vote, that is racial scapegoating.

      You don’t stand up against the mormon church as representatives of white homophobia, you stand against them as conservative/religious. You stand against black people because of their race, not because of their conservativism/religion. That is racial scapegoating. Period. You’ll never change that.”

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Wayne: You did not respond to my post so much as just ignored. Thus illustrating the point that you are liar by ommission. This is your thought process, ” I am not going to talk about what disproves my claim, so I will politely change the subject.”

      The problem is you aren’t fooling me. You are no better than the guy running a shell game trying to hide the ball. I know you are trying to run a con. I know the ball is not under any of the cups. You are wasting both of our time. Well, now yours, the point was to shut you as the ignorant slut thatyou are.

      I fully expect ou to continue. I just will stop playing with you and leave you to do so alone.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Coretta Scott King singled out the Black community and made it a point to chastise them for the growing problem of homophobia. Was she then a scapegoater and a bigot?

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Obama himself has been critical of the black community and the problem of anti gay bigotry and homophobia within the African American community. Is he then a scapegoater and a bigot.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      I guess you guys think Bayard Rustin was a scapegoater and race triator as well?

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @Citizen: I agree. It’s not trying ot get at causation. His interest is correlation because this allows his bigotry to be reinforced.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      But I’ve said the same thing that leaders like Coretta Scott King said. We need to speak out against the homophobia within the Black community. And all communities that espouse bigotry. I parrot Coretta and MLK’s views. If you feel I am a bigot, then surely you feel the same about them.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 6:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      “We have to launch a national campaign against homophobia in the black community”.

      Was that bigotry and was Coretta scapegoating the Black community for saying that?

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      Wayne. Your entire being is built on scapegoating. You put blacks in place of the other racial groups to go the firing squad and you try using the words of black people who are more brillant and morally righteous than you’ll ever be.

      Instead of treating blacks the same way you treat whites (calling whites out on their religion and social beliefs) you scapegoat black people according to their race instead of their religion/social beliefs. Racist scapegoater. You are nothing more and nothing less.

      You’re pretty good at using black people as if they’re trash.

      Shoo Shoo, go back to your cave.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen. I’ll ask again. I’ve parroted the exact views of civil rights leaders like Coretta Scott King. Was she then guilty in your eyes as scapegoating the Black community?

      And you say “You’re pretty good at using black people as if they’re trash. Shoo Shoo, go back to your cave.”

      Well I have to say I find that extremly ironic because most of the time that I spent in my “cave” today that wasn’t spent debating with you, was spent doing final rewrites, editing and posting of this story about the proud history of Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera two legendary gay people of color who helped to spark the modern gay rigts movement:

      http://www.worldofwonder.net/2009/01/10/The_Queens_of_Stonewall/index.php

      But thats probably typical behavior from someone who treats “black people as if they’re trash”

      You don’t know anything about me.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Vartan Hagopian
      Vartan Hagopian

      I believe when the Islamic and Latino communities become the predominant population in this country they will have a more sympathetic ear toward the gay agenda.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      I know you are a typical black demonizing racist scapegoater. Thats enough for me to know.

      There’s nothing left to say to you Wayne except to requote myself.

      “When someone singles out the black vote when the white vote is 5 times or more than the black vote, that is racial scapegoating.

      You don’t stand up against the mormon church as representatives of white homophobia, you stand against them as conservative/religious. You stand against black people because of their race, not because of their conservativism/religion. That is racial scapegoating. Period. You’ll never change that.”

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      So when Coretta Scott King spoke out even more forcefully than I have against homophobia within the Black Community, was she a racist scapegoater?

      I agree with the views of Coretta Scott King and her husband MLK. Don’t you?

      Jan 10, 2009 at 7:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      “When someone singles out the black vote when the white vote is 5 times or more than the black vote, that is racial scapegoating.

      You don’t stand up against the mormon church as representatives of white homophobia, you stand against them as conservative/religious. You stand against black people because of their race, not because of their conservativism/religion. That is racial scapegoating. Period. You’ll never change that.”

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      (White) Gay will never be the new black as long as Black gays are ignored by both heterosexual black society and eurocentric gay society.

      Black LGBT, you have nothing to lose. In this country we are the lowest of the low. You are not powerless against white gay male jeers, lies and simple racism.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen, you made the accusation. Why not just answer the question? Legendary leaders of the civil rights movment like Coretta Scott King have spoken out much more forcefully than I have about the problem of Homophobia within the Black community.

      Is she then a racist scapegoater? If I am why isn’t she.

      As I said. You made the accusation. Why not answer the question?

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      Wayne. My answer to your question can be found in our first exchanges. Simply because it isn’t enough for you doesn’t mean I’m at fault.

      This…

      When someone singles out the black vote when the white vote is 5 times or more than the black vote, that is racial scapegoating.

      You don’t stand up against the mormon church as representatives of white homophobia, you stand against them as conservative/religious. You stand against black people because of their race, not because of their conservativism/religion. That is racial scapegoating. Period. You’ll never change that.”

      …has to do with the eurocentric white gay community’s scapegoating of black people. King can be right while you be a scapegoating racist. King was a black person who was concerned with black interests. You are a eurocentric white male whos concerned with scapegoating blacks.

      This isn’t an either/or situation.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen you called me a racist scapegoater, but I have only parroted the exact views of civil rights leaders like Coretta Scott King. Her words are even more forceful than mine on the subject of homophobia in the black community.

      And yet you call me a racist scapegoater? I agree with her views as well as her husband. Our views are the same! Were they racist scapgoaters?

      Answer the question.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      This…

      When someone singles out the black vote when the white vote is 5 times or more than the black vote, that is racial scapegoating.

      You don’t stand up against the mormon church as representatives of white homophobia, you stand against them as conservative/religious. You stand against black people because of their race, not because of their conservativism/religion. That is racial scapegoating. Period. You’ll never change that.”

      …has to do with the eurocentric white gay community’s scapegoating of black people. King can be right while you be a scapegoating racist. King was a black person who was concerned with black interests. You are a eurocentric white male whos concerned with scapegoating blacks.

      This isn’t an either/or situation.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen That is RIDICULOUS. So you are saying that even though I agree wholeheartedly with the views of Coretta Scott King and MLK and when I express the exact views that they have, I am a racist scapegoater. But when they expressed the exact views that I have, they are not scapegoating because they are black?

      That is not only racist, but hypocritical in the extreme!

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      King can be right while you be a scapegoating racist.

      King was a black person who was concerned with black interests and concerns.

      You are a eurocentric white male whos concerned with scapegoating blacks.

      The white gay community only cares about any other lgbt racial group when it needs its heterosexual counterparts to vote.

      This isn’t an either/or situation.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      I think we have finally come to the real problem you have. It’s not just with me, it’s white people in general. That’s called racism.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      I agree with Coretta and Martin Luther King. I stand behind their views. They preached equality for all and stood against bigotry no matter who espoused it.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      1. Why aren’t you focusing on the racial aspect of the mormon church and Rick Warren?

      You can say black homophobes. most be framed racially while white homophobes should be framed through means other than race because of the statistics. Give me a break.

      White homophobia is the great racial threat to LGBT people.

      2. When someone singles out the black vote when the white vote is 5 times or more than the black vote, that is racial scapegoating.

      You don’t stand up against the mormon church as representatives of white homophobia, you stand against them as conservative/religious. You stand against black people because of their race, not because of their conservativism/religion. That is racial scapegoating. Period. You’ll never change that.

      3. Gay Numbers said

      “And what of Oregon where whites voted for banning marraige. The population there is 93.4 percent White. Blacks account for 2.5 percent of the population.

      Arizona which is 89.3 percent white? Nebraska which 93.5 percent white? Montanna which is almost 93 percent white.

      In many cases the bans passed by 65 percent or more.

      There are bans in 30 states.”

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      I have a problem with scapegoating white racists. I can have a problem with homophobic black people as well as homophobic whites (the greatest racial threats to lgbt civil rights) and not be racist.

      But hey, if you think I have a problem with white people, thats cool.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen. You refuse to see the truth. The Mormons have been protested against! So has Rick Warren. Being white did not protect them. Your arguement does not hold up. The gay community spoke out against thier bigotry, not their ethnicity! And the same goes for the African American community we are speaking out against the anti gay bigotry displayed by their overwhelming support of Pro 8 during the California vote. No one is targeting anyone’s ethnic backgroud White or Black. What has been spoken out against is their BIGOTRY! And it didn’t matter if they were black or white. Their bigotry is what we object to, not their ethnic backgroud.

      Your argument does not hold water. And your own racist attitudes are on full display.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 8:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen you are saying that even though I agree wholeheartedly with legendary civil rights leaders that my views are racist scapegoating because I’m white, but because they were people of color they can express the EXACT views that I have, yet you say they are not scapegoating.

      How can you not see how hypocritical and inherently racist that is?

      Jan 10, 2009 at 9:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • YaChi
      YaChi

      It amazes me that none of you and I mean none of you have talked about blacks only making up 8% of the voting population in California and yall are sitting up here going back and forth on 58%, 57%, 60%. You have got to be kidding.

      Why are we focused on one racial group? Hell, what about whites, asians, mexicans, etc? The hypocritcy is what pisses me off.

      Not only that what about black gays in California? White LGBTs were seen and heard making racial comments to black LGBTs after Prop 8 passed. As a black lesbian I was so pissed at white LGBTs and wanted to tell some of you where you could go and trust me it wasn’t heavenly.

      I don’t have the answer, but I will leave with this, “Divided we stand, divided we fall.” :-(

      Jan 10, 2009 at 9:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      No one has told the gay rights movement or any of you white gays to not go after churches or pastors that happen to be black. Not one. You scapegoat blacks then you say you don’t. For the love of god. Pick one.

      Just because whites are racially a greater danger to lgbt rights than any other racial group, especially blacks doesn’t mean people are being politically correct when they point out that scapegoating other races for white homophobia’s strength and power is wrong.

      Simply because the gay community’s largest enemies (who happen to take up most of our time and effort) are white, doesn’t mean we’re ignoring homophobia in other communities.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 9:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen you called me a racist scapegoater for expressing the same views of Coretta Scott King! But then say you don’t have a problem when people speak out against homophobic black people? But that’s what I’ve done, and not only do you have a problem with it, you call me a racist scapegoater. As I’ve said the gay community objects to the bigotry displayed by the majority of African American voters who overwhelmingly supported Prop 8. Their bigotry should be spoken out against. The Mormons (who are about 100% white) also displayed bigotry and they have been spoken out against. Rick Warren is white, but the gay community sure spoke out against him. The gay community is not speaking out against any ethnic background we are speaking out against bigotry no matter which community espouses it.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 9:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      I guess that sums it up for tonight. I’m sure you have some more racist accusations to spew Citizen, but that’s enough for me for tonight. I will check up on this thread in the am. I’ll have some more interesting quotes from some civil rights leaders tomorrow, I think you’ll find them interesting. We can discuss whether they were racist scapegoaters as well.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 9:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      I guess that sums it up for tonight. I’m sure you have some more racist accusations to spew Citizen, but that’s enough for me for tonight. I will check up on this thread in the am. I’ll have some more interesting quotes from some civil rights leaders tomorrow, I think you’ll find them interesting. We can discuss whether they were racist scapegoaters as well.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 9:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      ooh, double post. cool. how did that happen. lol. time for bed.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 9:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      You just don’t get it Wayne. This is the only problem I actually do have with white people.

      White people are defined through religion, occupation, class, country where they descended from, etc.

      Black people are defined only as black. Our religion isn’t taken into account. Nor are our occupation, our class, our poverty, our history, where we are from.

      All that matters to you people are our color. You don’t give a shit about King because of who she was. You only care to use her as a tool. But this is a typical trait of the white gay community. You don’t give a shit about black people and I’m sure you and all your white gay friends give less of a white about black lgbt people.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 9:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      @Wayne:

      Pick all the civil rights quotes you want but this will always be true. Keep hiding behind the words of black people you could give less a shit about. Doesn’t make you anymore disgusting. I’ll just repeat the truth.

      “No one has told the gay rights movement or any of you white gays to not go after churches or pastors that happen to be black. Not one. You scapegoat blacks then you say you don’t. For the love of god. Pick one.

      Just because whites are racially a greater danger to lgbt rights than any other racial group, especially blacks doesn’t mean people are being politically correct when they point out that scapegoating other races for white homophobia’s strength and power is wrong.

      Simply because the gay community’s largest enemies (who happen to take up most of our time and effort) are white, doesn’t mean we’re ignoring homophobia in other communities.”

      Jan 10, 2009 at 9:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      Hey Wayne

      For every quote from civil rights leaders you post, I’ll post articles address racism and eurocentrictism in the gay community. For the King quote, an article by Chong-suk Han

      Bad Subjects: A Different Shade of Queer

      By now, two things are bitterly clear about our “shared” American experiences. One, a shared history of oppression rarely leads to coalition building among those who have been systematically denied their rights. More devastatingly, such shared experiences of oppression rarely lead to sympathy for others who are also marginalized, traumatized, and minimized by the dominant society. Rather, all too miserably, those who should naturally join in fighting discrimination find it more comforting to join their oppressors in oppressing others. As a gay man of color, I see this on a routine basis – whether it be racism in the gay community or homophobia in communities of color. And it pisses me off.

      Psychologists have theories, I’m sure, about why such things happen. But for now, I’m not interested in why it happens. Rather, I’m interested in exposing it, condemning it, shaming it, and stopping it.
      Many gay activists want to believe that there aren’t issues of racism within the gay community. As members of an oppressed group, they like to think that they are above oppressing others. Yet, looking around any gayborhood, something becomes blatantly clear to those of us on the outside looking in. Within the queer spaces that have sprung up in once neglected and forgotten neighborhoods, inside the slick new storefronts and trendy restaurants, and on magazine covers, gay America has given a whole new meaning to the term “whitewash.”

      Whiteness in the gay community is everywhere, from what we see, what we experience, and more importantly, what we desire. Media images now popular in television and film such as Will and Grace, My Best Friend’s Wedding, In and Out, Queer as Folks, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, The L-Word, etc. promote a monolithic image of the “gay community” as being overwhelmingly upper-middle class – if not simply rich – and white. Even the most perfunctory glance through gay publications exposes the paucity of non-white gay images. It’s almost as if no gay men or women of color exist outside of fantasy cruises to Jamaica, Puerto Rico, or the “Orient.” And even there, we apparently only exist to serve the needs of the largely gay white population seeking an “authentic” experience of some kind. To the larger gay community, our existence, as gay men and women of color, is merely a footnote, an inconvenient fact that is addressed in the most insignificant and patronizing way. Sometime between Stonewall and Will and Grace, gay leaders, along with the gay press, have decided that the best way to be accepted was to mimic upper middle-class white America.
      Sometimes, racism in the gay community takes on a more explicit form aimed at excluding men and women of color from gay institutions. All over the country, gay people of color are routinely asked for multiple forms of I.D. to enter the most basic of gay premises, the gay bars. In the 1980s, the Association of Lesbian and Gay Asians found that multiple carding was widespread throughout the city of San Francisco and the “Boston Bar Study” conducted by Men of All Colors Together Boston (MACTB) cited numerous examples of discrimination at gay bars against black men. Rather than a specter of gay whitening practices from the past, the efforts to exclude gay men of color are still in full swing. In 2005, the San Francisco Human Rights Commission found that the San Francisco BadLands, a once popular bar, violated the civil rights of non-white patrons and employees by denying entrance to, and employment at, the bar. Denied access to the gay bars, gay men and women of color often lose the ability to see and socialize with others “like them” who also turn to these “safe” places for not only their social aspects but their affirming aspects. Isolated incidents might be easily forgotten, but news reports and buzz on various on-line forums expose such practices to be endemic to gay communities.
      More importantly, gay men and women of color are routinely denied leadership roles in “gay” organizations that purport to speak for “all of us.” In a process that Allan Bérubé calls “mirroring,” gay organizations come to “mirror” mainstream organizations where leadership roles are routinely reserved for white men and a few white women. As such, it is the needs and concerns of a largely middle class gay white community that come to the forefront of what is thought to be a “gay” cause. Interjecting race at these community organizations is no easy task. On too many occasions, gay men and women of color have been told not to muddy the waters of the “primary” goal by bringing in concerns that might be addressed elsewhere. When mainstream “gay” organizations actually address issues of race, gay white men and women continue to set the agenda for what is and is not “appropriate” for discussion. Likewise, when “ethnic” organizations set the agenda, gay and lesbian issues are nowhere to be found.
      The primacy of whiteness in the gay community often manifests as internalized racism. In “No blacks allowed,” Keith Boykin argues that “in a culture that devalues black males and elevates white males,” black men deal with issues of self-hatred that white men do not. Boykin argues that this racial self-hatred makes gay black men see other gay black men as unsuitable sexual partners and white males as ultimate sexual partners.

      This desire for white male companionship is not limited just to black men, and neither is racial self hatred. Rather, it seems to be pandemic among many gay men of color. Even the briefest visit to a gay bar betrays the dirty secret that gay men of color don’t see each other as potential life partners. Rather, we see each other as competitors for the few white men who might be willing to date someone “lower” on the racial hierarchy. We spend our energy and time contributing to the dominance of whiteness while ignoring those who would otherwise be our natural allies. When Asian men tell me that they “just don’t find Asian guys attractive,” I often wonder what they see when they look in the mirror. How does one reconcile the sexual repulsion to their race with the reflection in the mirror?
      Ironically, we strive for the attention of the very same white men who view us as nothing more than an inconvenience. “No femmes, no fats, and no Asians,” is a common quote found in many gay personal ads, both in print and in cyberspace. Gay white men routinely tell us that we are lumped with the very least of desirable men within the larger gay community. To many of them, we are reduced to no more than one of many “characteristics” that are considered undesirable. Rather than confronting this racism, many of these gay Asian brothers have become apologists for this outlandish racist behavior. We damage ourselves by not only allowing it, but actively participating in it. We excuse their racist behavior because we engage in the same types of behavior. When seeking sexual partners for ourselves, we also exclude “femmes, fats, and Asians.” We hope that we are somehow the exception that proves the rule. “We’re not like other Asians,” we tell ourselves. I’m sure that similar thought go on in other minds, only, “Asian” might be replaced with black, Latino, Native American, etc. In our minds, we are always the exceptions.

      The rationale we use, largely to fool ourselves, to justify the inability of seeing each other as potential partners and allies, is laughable at best. Many Asian guys have told me that dating other Asians would be like “dating [their] brother, father, uncle, etc.” Yet, we never hear white men argue that dating other white men would be like dating their brothers or fathers. This type of logic grants individuality to white men while feeding into the racist stereotype that all of “us” are indistinguishable from one another and therefore easily interchangeable.

      Some of us rely on tired stereotypes. Boykin writes about the professional gay black man who degrades other black men as being of a “lower” social class while thinking nothing of dating blue-collar white men. If we are invisible in the dominant gay community, perhaps we are doubly so in our own communities of color. If we are a footnote in the gay community, we are an endnote in communities of color – an inconvenient fact that is buried in the back and out of view. We are told, by family and friends, that “being gay,” is a white “problem.” We are told, early in life, that we must avoid such stigma at all costs. When we try to interject issues of sexuality, we are told that there is precious little time to waste on “trivial” needs while we pursue racial justice.
      I’ve seen those who are marginalized use the master’s tools in numerous instances, now too legion to list. Citing Leviticus, some people of color who are also members of the clergy have vehemently attacked homosexuality as an “abomination.” This is the same Leviticus that tells us that wearing cloth woven of two fabrics and eating pork or shrimp is an “abomination” punishable by death. Yet not surprisingly, rarely do Christian fundamentalists picket outside of a Gap or a Red Lobster. If hypocrisy has a border, those yielding Leviticus as their weapon of choice must have crossed it by now. It must be convenient to practice a religion with such disdain that the word of God need only be obeyed when it reinforces one’s own hatred and bigotry and completely ignored when it is inconvenient. How else do we explain those who condemn Brokeback Mountain based on their “religious” views while, in the same breath, praise Walk the Line, a movie about two adulterous country singers? On purely religious views, doesn’t adultery rank higher on the list of “sins” than homosexuality? After all, adultery is forbidden by the Ten Commandments while homosexuality is not.

      More problematic is that we chose to practice historic amnesia by ignoring the fact that Leviticus was used by slave owners to justify slavery by arguing that God allowed the owning of slaves and selling of daughters. Anti-miscegenation laws, too, were justified using the Bible. In 1965, Virginia trial court judge Leon Bazile sentenced an interethnic couple who were married in Washington, D.C. to a jail term using the Bible as his justification. In his ruling, he wrote, “Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.” Scores of others also used the story of Phinehas, who distinguished himself in the eyes of God by murdering an inter-racial couple, thereby preventing a “plague” to justify their own bigotry. Have we forgotten that the genocide and removal of Native Americans was also largely justified on biblical grounds?

      Have we simply decided to pick and choose the parts of the Bible that reinforce our own prejudices and use it against others in the exact same way that it has been used against us? Have we really gotten this adapt at using the master’s tools that he no longer needs to use them himself to keep us all “in our place”?
      Given the prevalence of negative racial attitudes in the larger gay community and the homophobia in communities of color, gay people of color have to begin building our own identities. For gay people of color to be truly accepted by both the gay community and communities of color, we must form connections with each other first and build strong and lasting coalitions with each other rather than see each other as being competitors for the attention of potential white partners. We must begin confronting whiteness where it stands while simultaneously confronting homophobia. More importantly, we must begin doing this within our own small circle of “gay people of color.” We must confront our own internalized racism that continues to put gay white people on a pedestal while devaluing other gays and lesbians of color. Certainly, this is easier said than done. The task at hand seems insurmountable. In Seattle, a group of gay, lesbian, and transgendered social activists from various communities of color have launched the Queer People of Color Liberation Project. Through a series of live performances, they plan on telling their own stories to counter the master narratives found within the larger gay community and within communities of color.

      Certainly, gay people of color have allies both in the mainstream gay community and in our communities of color. Recently, Kahlil Hassam, a high school student in Seattle won a national ACLU scholarship for opposing prejudice. Hassam, the only Muslim student at University Prep High School, decided to fight for justice after a Muslim speaker made derogatory comments about homosexuals. Despite his own marginalized status as a Muslim American, Hassam confronted the homophobia found within his own community. Examples such as these are scattered throughout the country. Nonetheless, there is much more that allies, both straight and gay, can do to promote social justice. We must see “gay rights” and “civil rights” as being not exclusive but complimentary. All too often, even those on the left view supporting “other” causes as being more about the Niomoellerian fear of having no one left to speak up for us if the time should come. I propose that the motivation to join in “other” causes should come not from such fears but from the belief that there are no such “other” causes. Rather, as Martin Luther King Jr. reminded us, “an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” We must remind ourselves, contrary to what Cannick may want us to believe, social justice is not a zero-sum game. Granting “rights” to others do not diminish our rights. Rather, it is the exact opposite. Ensuring that “rights” are guaranteed to others ensures that they are guaranteed to us.

      Jan 10, 2009 at 10:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Citizen
      Citizen

      The article can be found here

      http://www.youth-suicide.com/gay-bisexual/racism-gay-lesbian/index.htm

      Jan 10, 2009 at 10:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Vartan Hagopian
      Vartan Hagopian

      Wayne wins this round.Everyone that denies that they are racist are the biggest racists.It is only human nature to be rascist.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 2:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • A Diatribe Among Many
      A Diatribe Among Many

      “I won’t date Mexicans” (from Apetickler’s post) “As an Asian when I was in my early teens I couldn’t get a date anywhere.” (from Jon Dorian’s post)

      I would agree with Daniel K when he says “Is it racist if you are only attracted to a certain type? No. Most often when you meet someone all you have to go by in the beginning is their appearance and you’re either drawn to them or you’re not.”

      So, let’s not muddle the larger issues with our own. An example would be Soman who says: “And too many times I have read on online profiles being not into this race or that race, which is fine, but the tone of many of these lead me to believe that it’s not just a sexual preference, but they wouldn’t even want another race they are attracted to as even friends.”

      I would challenge that poster to pull up verifiable examples of this, because my first instinct is to assume there is a degree of projection here. He reads a profile that says so-and-so is only into … Asians, and he internalizes this as a rejection, which he then justifies into this generalization that lessens that perceived rejection.

      If one knows his or her preference(s), that has to be okay. We can’t become the attraction police because we’re not getting some tail. The same applies to racially stereotyped fetishes, which I will agree to exist, but we can’t assume that every white guy that prefers a black guy is doing it as some sort of fantasy. After all, as RichardS pointed out: “fancying black men – as we say in the UK – is not really the same as ‘sexually fetishizing certain races’.”

      But the ultimate lesson, Queerty, may be to heed Anthony in Nashville: “Are gays racist? At this point, I try not to judge groups of people and instead focus on my interactions with individuals.”

      Maybe if the world stopped focusing on GROUPS for a moment, it could start to be a better place. Because, as Jeremy Feist, pointed out: “There are gay people who aren’t white (I know, shocker), and there are people in the black community that are gay.” So, a simplistic (and egregiously blanketed statement) as “are gays racist?” is ignorant, at best – mostly because we are such a divided group.

      I mean, they can lump us together all under that rainbow flag and the LGBT group label, but if you even take ONE of those letters, you’ll find a highly factioned arena of disparate ideologies. “I believe our community discriminates based not only on race, but on weight, age, looks, gender and income as well,” our little tropical bear, OsoCubano, states. “And don’t get me started on the “leather queens vs. drag queens” or the “militant lesbians vs. everybody” issues.” So, you see, problems arise when we begin forcing a generalized group label upon ourselves.

      And finally, Afrolito brings us this syllogism: “Is the gay community racist? Of course it is. The ‘gay community’ is, and always has been, dominated by white men.”

      The gay community is racist
      The gay comunity is dominated by white men
      Ergo, white men are racist.

      And then later in his/her post…

      “Is the black community homophobic? Yes, but no more or less….” and then he trails off in a self-ameliorating fashion. By qualifying the sentence with the word ‘but’, Afrolito mitigates the declaration that follows. Had he truly believed the words he wrote, he would have stated “the black community is homophobic” as succinctly as he generalized the gay community as racist (because it is dominated by white men, lest we forget).

      There were plenty other great comments on this topic (skipping that huge chunk of in-fighting between Wayne and Citizen and several others – had to scroll through that). I say, have an opinion – a strong one even – but when it begins to devolve into chaos and petty name-calling… Pity.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 8:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wayne
      Wayne

      Citizen. I don’t hide behind the words of civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King and Coretta Scott King. I don’t hide behind them, I BELIEVE in them!

      Why don’t you?

      Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 8:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JH
      JH

      @Citizen: eh?

      Jan 11, 2009 at 8:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JH
      JH

      Japhy? Citizen borders on unacceptable manners toward others, no? Where’s the new policing, or is calling people ‘disgusting’ part of the new Queerty? Citizen is a good example of having something to say, but doing so in such an imbalanced and rude manner, overcome by a desire to call names and deride others, that he is better off excluded from what was, for the most part, a civil discussion.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 8:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JH
      JH

      Can someone explain to me why black descendants of slaves are Christian, a religion forced on them? I don’t understand it at all.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 8:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @JH:

      We are too complex for you!
      don’t sweat it; forget it!

      Jan 11, 2009 at 1:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      American society is infested with bigots. Most are Euroamericans. Racism against native Americans, immigrant and imported workers, Asians, Pacific Islanders, muslims and above all African Americans is woven in to the very fabric of US society.

      Racism is institutionalized and the courts, because Barney Frank gutted ENDA, still have no basis in federal law to deal harshly with bigots who discriminate. The only difference between now and before civil rights laws were passed is that bigots are careful to use ‘correct’ language and methods when they discriminate.

      The Democrats attack on auto workers, demanding wage cuts, speedups and employment cuts before loans were approved will mean the loss of more jobs for Black and Latino workers already hard hit by the ‘Dust Belt’, a joint creation of Reagan, the Bushes and Clinton. Obama has no plan to alleviate this. He supports laws like NAFTA that export good jobs. That is just one of the forms that institutionalized racism takes.

      Obama and the Democrats have no plans or abilities to address racism. Take a look at the website of the folks at the Black Agenda Report for a more complete look at the bankruptcy of Obama and the Democrats. Here’s the link http://www.blackagendareport.com/

      The Democrats and Republicans are as much enemies of minority communities as they are enemies of the GLBT communities. Obama is a superstition driven bigot who opposes same sex marriage. So is Clinton and so are most Democrats. The Democrats gave us DOMA and DADT, gutted ENDA, dropped the hate crimes bill and pander endlessly to bigots. Obama’s invitation to Warren is his reward to the bigots for clobbering same sex marriage rights.

      Divide et impera was an old strategy when the Romans named it 2500 years ago. A perfect example of how divide and rule works is the rancid racism of many Euroamericans who blame African Americans for Prop 8. All the scientific polls and analyses contradict that drivel. Prop 8 was passed because Obama validated and galvanized the bigot vote when he said that “god’s in the mix” and the mormon and catholic cults used his bigotry in a last minute blitz to turn things against us. The last poll before the vote had us at 55% No. We ended up with only 48% No because of Obama and the cults and because of the Eurocentrism of No on 8 which refused to address minority communities in a state where minorities are the majority. The Black vote had nothing to do with our getting beaten. Obama, McCain, their parties and the cults had everyting to do with it.

      I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights. Desmond Tutu

      Jan 11, 2009 at 2:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • afrolito
      afrolito

      This thread has more than proved how racist the “gay community” really is, and racists like Wayne more than illustrate that fact.

      It’s really sad.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 3:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @A Diatribe Among Many: @<a This is more complicated than you describe.

      Its true attraction generally is not per se racism, but it can be.

      Examples:

      a) Guys who are attracted to me because of their fantasies that I am suppose to be a thug or have a big dick or they think black means certain things. I dated a guy who pointed blank said “you aren’t black enough for me

      b) Where it’s not physical attraction that’s the issue but social status. Oh, I am not interested because of what myf riends will think

      c) Where generally our perception of what is attractive or not is shaped by the broader culture. I had this baggage for a long time. I overcame it in my 30s when I realized what I was doing. I am not attracted to all sorts of groups that in my 20s I said “I would never be attracted to.” ie, I used to say I am not attracted to Asian guys. then I examined why tht was the case. It wasn’t htat I wasn’t attracted to them. It was my stereotyping that i had to address.

      d) Like I said above the media says that gays are 99 percent white, 99 percent men and 99 percent upper middle class. That affects everyone . This is like the Brown v board thing where they gave the black children the choice between the black doll and white one, and the black child choose the white one because they thought it always looked better. that’s our society in a nutshell. Shit happens to us on a subconcious level. To say that “its just what I am attracted to is to not figure out if thats true. I had to work on my shit, and others should try as best hey can to do the same.

      There are other examples. My point is simple. Saying attraction can not be a part of racism is untrue. It can be. but it depends a lot on context and whats happening. This being said, I am not and nor should anyone be interested in a) forcing this on others and b) wasting effort beyond this conversation on teh subject matter.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @JH: @JH: Disagreement is not unacceptable manners unless your point is that we are suppose defer to your views as a sign of respect. If that’s the case, you are confused and no one can help you.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 3:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @A Diatribe Among Many: also if you skip through arguments how do you know they are a name calling fight rather than characterizing what has been said?

      Jan 11, 2009 at 4:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joeysmores
      Joeysmores

      @The Gay Numbers:

      exactly. instead of lookin at the fighting see whats being said.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 6:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • A Diatribe Among Many
      A Diatribe Among Many

      There are 243 posts thus far. If you have the time to read EVERY DAMN WORD, I pity you. You spend too much time on the internet.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 7:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @A Diatribe Among Many: Nice rationalization of your previous post.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 9:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jjm16
      jjm16

      it’s completely stupid to engage in this debate… Blacks(African-Americans/slaves’ descendants-which is kinda different-that is) are one of the most assimilated groups of modern-day Americans, having been deprived of the American dream and inevitably infected with schemas of self-blame in many respects… assimilated because their entire religious and social identity was long ago defined by european-americans’ social ideals and beliefs, owing to their exclusion from america’s ideological-social fabric. not surprisingly, blacks haven’t been able to claim any truly unique stake in this ideological hailstorm that is american politics since the end of slavery. so, it’s completely stupid to look at the not-so-progressive black church as a distinct entity.

      Ask a black person if s/he believes s/he goes to church so often because black slaves were first forced to worship god while working as slaves hundreds of years ago… and you won’t get a very in-depth or realistic response. of course the black community is very religious homophobic. but this is primarily a symptom of their forced social assimilation in a nation that’s very much ruled by the whims and silly beliefs of christians.

      As a black gay athiest, I realize the importance of noting where this intolerance comes from, and in a historical context. it’s not correct to call the black church-with regards to this issue-backwards, but it’s certainly true that blacks in general are, well, have become very beholden to the social cores of white christians-and other “white”/european institutions-throughout american history.

      Jan 11, 2009 at 11:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield

      @faghag:

      didnt obama have an anti gay preacher campaign for him throughout SC during the primary expressly for the reason that many (most?) blacks are homophobic and not embarased to admit it?

      Jan 12, 2009 at 12:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield

      I need help on understanding some things.

      Could someone please recommend a good blog where I can have a conversation about something bothering me.

      Im not gay, but I did have a brother who died because he was.

      OK. Heres my troubles.

      Last night I saw MILK.

      It was as good as I could have hoped and I learned a lot.

      My brother was 10 years older than me and he had moved to SF exactly at that time and for the reasons that are explained well by Harvey in the movie. (Being gay was not allowed in our town or state in 1978)

      OK ….here it is…

      First let me say that I worked for and am a close friend of Hillary Clinton and her family. I know for a fact that they have no prejudice towards the gay community – none. Hell, Mrs Rodham’s (Hillarys Mom) best friend for many years has been a gay gent who was her next door neighbor back in Little Rock.

      OK – I felt I needed to say that first.

      I left the movie thinking about Obama and his campaign for the WH. Expressly what he did to beat Hillary in SC. Im still wondering about that anti gay preacher Obama had campaign for him in the SC primary.

      How was that tolerated at all by the Gay community?

      And later with the embracing of Colin Powell (the man who all alone stopped Clintons plan to allow gays in the military back in 1993)and then with the vote in CA and now the Rev. Warren stuff.

      How arent Obama’s s choices insulting and anti gay?

      Isnt supporting him amazingly backsliding?

      What would Harvey have said?

      I cant believe a bigger deal wasnt made about this.

      Im not just being a smart ass.

      Why didnt the Gay community scream their lungs out at the time pf any of these things?

      These were all considered such minor, minor issues and his excuses were just accepted and everyone moved on –

      Thanks for anybody’s help.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 12:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      @jjm16: I am split on your comment.

      I actually agree with most of it. I agree that AA religion was forced upon us by slave owners. I even agree having a conversation about this with most AA christians is an exercise in them putting their fingers in their ears and going “La la la la” as a response. In fact, I had a very intelligent guy try to argue me down about how slave owner Christians did not in fact justify slavery under the Bible, including sections now used to say homosexuality is a sin. He kept telling me in response to my instance that it was historical fact that it was not fact because they were not “real Christians.” I gave up after a few tries.

      What I have ambivalence about is th sweeping nature in which your post suggest everyone indoctrinated under Christian thought is possibly not reachable. I think that comes from your being an atheist. I am not a Christian or a beleiver in any organized religion (I am a deist when I try to describe what I believe at this point in my life). But, I do know that I have been able to reach some. It’s a matter of a lot of work. Whether one thinks that work is worth it is another story. But it is possible.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 1:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @holden caulfield:

      just like that
      just just like that
      just like that
      i CRAM to understand you (sam)

      Jan 12, 2009 at 1:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield

      @sparkle obama:
      What ?

      Jan 12, 2009 at 2:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      i mean stan.
      just like that
      i cram to understand you, *stan*.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 2:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield

      @sparkle obama:How arent Obama’s s choices insulting and anti gay?

      Jan 12, 2009 at 2:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @holden caulfield:

      listen, the pain you feel is understandable.
      everyone here keeps trying to tell you:
      it’s not either/or.

      as you know, obama was elected as a president for all the people, including conservative christians and those who have big unresolved “marriage issues” – you know, *americans*!

      obama himself comes from a very gay-friendly church (trinity) and he is one of the few sincere figures out there with the charisma and credibility to bring people together on this historic wedge issue!

      if you are “hurting”, you need to let obama & Us know how you feel about his choices re: warren & mcclurkin in a constructive way.
      be positive & proactive as you hold his feet to the fire (metaphorically) to address DOMA, DADT and spousal civil rights!

      …but stop scapegoating, darling.
      it makes us all look bad.
      you can’t fight hate with hate.

      i’m not telling you anything new, h*lden!
      it’s your call to drop the phony outrage and reflexive blaming.
      you kids reveal more than you realize with your artificial, color-conscious, disingenuous, circular arguments.

      it’s 2009.
      the truth is out there.
      act like you know, chickenhead(s).

      Jan 12, 2009 at 4:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      Thought experiment:

      Suppose that Proposition 8 in California was a law that relegalized racial segregationism in California, rather than a law that relegalized sexual orientation segregationism in California.

      Suppose that the law still passed with 52% of the vote.

      Suppose that the LGBT voting bloc had supported the law by a 60% to 70% margin.

      Suppose Casmyn Jamick, gay activist, had told angry black commentators that they had no right to demand LGBT people support their rights until homophobic hip-hop and reggae music disappeared from the face of the earth.

      Would there be a bunch of earnest hand-wringing in the NAACP about how African Americans need better outreach to the LGBT community? Would there be wide-eyed platitudes about how there was failure to understand the queer experience, and that led to the current situation?

      Methinks not.

      So the question I introduce is — why the double standard?

      And more importantly, why are people accepting the notion that the two groups aren’t overlapping?

      Further, why isn’t the moral case being clearly argued? If you voted for Proposition 8, regardless of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc., you’re arguing in favor of segregationism based on sexual orientation. Period.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 7:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      if you are “hurting”, you need to let obama & Us know how you feel about his choices re: warren & mcclurkin in a constructive way.

      In other words, we need to get on our knees and beg you for the same sort of dignity that you yourself would be rioting over if it wasn’t applied to you.

      No thanks.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 7:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      Why didnt the Gay community scream their lungs out at the time pf any of these things?

      The gay community did.

      Queer politicos, on the other hand, didn’t.

      To understand why, just look at the top queer politicos. They’re in it for money and career, not to meet key policy goals.

      The worst thing in the world that could happen to HRC is losing their status as a wing of the Democratic administration. Joe Solomonese makes a quarter million dollars a year selling the Dem Party to gay people — right or wrong.

      He’s got a long career in DC as a politico. His career is (possibly understandably) more important to him than the dignity of everyday LGBT people.

      The LGBT community needs to be more outspoken on our own. The grassroots movement in reaction to Prop 8 is a good start… but more is needed (and will probably come).

      That’s also going to involve a new generation of leadership. All the old 1980s and 1990s queer theorists and political hacks who present themselves as the intellectual and political leadership of the LGBT world will have to fade away (or be replaced/ignored) first… and that takes time.

      A lot of those guys have been at it for 20+ years and won’t give up their cushy positions and “access” to powerful people easily. And a real LGBT revolution will require an end to cushy backroom politics and comfortable black-tie dinner “dialogue.”

      Jan 12, 2009 at 8:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @sparkle obama: I read a lot of these comments after I posted my questions and I got a lot of info…but…let me explain more about my worries and sadness.

      1) No, I dont buy into the whole hope/change dogma. I know some of these people – one of Obamas top aides is one of my BFF and I know that campaign was 100% about ambition for power like 100% of other campaigns. Im too experienced in that world to buy into the sparkle and hype.

      2) in 1993 I joined Clintons campaign after first working for Harkin – the labor/left candidate who dropped out early. My first day for him was in PA. There I met a guy who had also just been hired – directly by Clinton and he had come from Act Up – which at the time was one of the most controversial – no , unpopular – groups in the nation. He was in full war paint (leather pants – many studded chrome belts, earrings etc)and stood out in the campaign office on Locus Street. (As a Harkin I used to call the Clinton staff “those polo shirt wearing Mother F-ers)We went to drinks that day and he told me his story and I told him mine. I told him about my brothers recent passing and he told me that he also had tested positive. We talked about the politics of “outing” public officials (which he had been involved with at act up.) I remember his saying that if one specific athlete had come out when he got infected – he could have changed the political dynamics of hiv in one swoop. I remember discussing whether my brother died because Reagan never ever said the word “Aids” He told me that Clinton was going to propose ending the ban on gays in the military and thats why he had joined him.

      As no one remembers, for the remainder of the campaign Clinton said in every speech that he was going to do this. The thing is that the GOP didnt focus on this until AFTER election day when they came out against this policy and then it EXPLODED as THE ISSUE during the pre inaugural period. Bush’s campaign manager said at the time – and I agree – that if they had gone after that issue before the election – theyd have won. When Clinton tried to end the ban as POTUS the support for him was gone. The key player in this – in public and behind the scenes was Colin Powell -”American Hero” and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and media God. The media would not take its foot off our neck on this and the admin began to buckle on all fronts under the 24/7 media frenzy and the concurrent political pressure…
      and hence was born – dont ask dont tell… (and Clinton to a degree – has carried the tag of sell out – ever since)

      OK. Now the world has changed enough that Obamas Press sec Gibbs says “dont ask” will soon be gone. So obvious;y the environment is better these days.

      You say Obama is enlightened and Trinity United was very gay friendly. OK, OK…Then, conceivably, what he did in SC was worse, done in the coldest of selfish motives.

      Why in Gods green earth then did Obama send McClurkin on his tour of SC even after people complained beforehand that the point of the tour was specifically to rally anti gay bigotry in the states AA churches? Did he not plan to use those people as a firewall to keep Hillarys support (she being considered 100% gay friendly)down on these churches? I feel there is not a question of whether this was their plan – it was – the question is- why was it tolerated and why didnt 100% of the gay community come out against Obama at that moment?

      Again I voted for him because I wanted a Dem administration. But no, I dont respect the man. Ny anger is also about how he used right wing and media scripts for his advant5age to tear down the Clintons. Plus the unending charges of racism were completely unforgivable to me…but yes, I voted for him. So I believe we can support the Administration while still condemning the man and those staffers that helped him commit – in my view – immoral acts.

      My question is – is that a pov that members of the gay community also share?

      As to the Warren selection doesnt that just double down on his willingness to allow soft bigotry not only to endure – but to be promoted by his own forces?

      So are we sliding back after 15 years or no.

      And again Im serious, Im still in the thrall of seeing MILK on Saturday night. And once again I am left with a hole of sadness because I never really got to know my brother. He was 15 or so when I was born and so off at school by the time I became aware.

      When I hit my teens, I had so planned on getting to know him as we grew older. As I wrote before – he ran out of our home town. What I didnt mention is that he had married in college and when he came out – well, simply… his father (we had diff fathers)never spoke to him ever again.
      Not one word.

      Wow, what a time. My brother had moved to SF in 76 or 77. He was brilliant and a successful sculpture. (He was legendary in our schools for having gotten all A’s from 1st grade through 12 – except for 1 B in 3rd grade) He must have joined in that struggle. Of that I have little doubt. I have always believed that his death – like all the others – might have been prevented if our govt didnt wait so long to face this crisis.

      So thats why I ask, what would Harvey sat about all this? About Obamas win at all costs choices? At Warren?
      I just cant stop myself from wondering…

      Jan 12, 2009 at 11:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @Brian Miller: Brian – you just made me cry. This makes me so sad.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 12:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @Brian Miller: . Brian wrote -”…And a real LGBT revolution will require an end to cushy backroom politics and comfortable black-tie dinner “dialogue.”

      In MILK – it was obvious that Harvey rejected these people when he told the rich investor-Advocate publisher that there was “no room” at his victory party for him.

      So is the reality of Obama and the response to him from the most high profile gay leaders – like from the HRCF.

      Did they react politically to Obama’s despicable act in SC the way that these 2 characters did in the movie. More as enablers and sycophants to power and its surrounding glamour – than as CIVIL RIGHTS leaders?

      Jan 12, 2009 at 12:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Brian Miller:

      what are you talking?
      i am as gay as you!
      you don’t need to get on your knees, just follow the golden rule & stay classy, son!

      Jan 12, 2009 at 2:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JH
      JH

      @The Gay Numbers:

      calling people ‘disgusting’ ( that was not leveled against me, but another writer ) is not a sign of disagreement, but diparagement. It is not the way to publicly disagree, to denigrate the opposing point of view. I wrote nothing at all about anyone adopting my point of view, so your comment, like so many on this post, is a wild non-sequitur.
      Please feel free to disagree, but I side with Japhy that the name calling should stop. That’s all I said.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 2:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JH
      JH

      @sparkle obama:
      I would forget it, except the Black Christian Church is a virulent opponent of gay rights, and a great mis-interpreter of the love of Christ. That’ why I’d like to know more about why Black people are Christian anyway. I would think casting off a religion forced upon them would be natural. Indeed, many of us raised Christian have cast it off rather than have life center on an irreconcilable theological issue of sex.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 2:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield

      @JH: OK. Now the world has changed enough that Obamas Press sec Gibbs says “dont ask” will soon be gone. So obvious;y the environment is better these days.

      You say Obama is enlightened and Trinity United was very gay friendly. OK, OK…Then, conceivably, what he did in SC was worse, done in the coldest of selfish motives.

      Why in Gods green earth then did Obama send McClurkin on his tour of SC even after people complained beforehand that the point of the tour was specifically to rally anti gay bigotry in the states AA churches? Did he not plan to use those people as a firewall to keep Hillarys support (she being considered 100% gay friendly)down on these churches? I feel there is not a question of whether this was their plan – it was – the question is- why was it tolerated and why didnt 100% of the gay community come out against Obama at that moment?

      Jan 12, 2009 at 4:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • JH
      JH

      @holden caulfield: Hi. That’ a good example of the reliable bigotry of the black church, but you must be referring to another writer regarding the Obama and Trinity comments?

      Jan 12, 2009 at 5:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mad Professah
      Mad Professah

      Wow! That’s a lot of comments–most ever for a post at Queerty.

      Good work, Japhy!

      I do think it seems like maybe Queerty should have a message board and not just a comment capability. Wayne and Citizen appear as if they need to get a room and sort it out!

      Jan 12, 2009 at 6:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      @sparkle obama:

      what are you talking?
      i am as gay as you!

      I wouldn’t say that.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 6:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield

      @JH: No. 254 · sparkle obama

      @holden caulfield:

      listen, the pain you feel is understandable.
      everyone here keeps trying to tell you:
      it’s not either/or.

      as you know, obama was elected as a president for all the people, including conservative christians and those who have big unresolved “marriage issues” – you know, *americans*!

      obama himself comes from a very gay-friendly church (trinity) and he is one of the few sincere figures out there with the charisma and credibility to bring people together on this historic wedge issue!

      Jan 12, 2009 at 6:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      To answer your question, Holden, 100% of gay people didn’t come out against Obama because you cannot get 100% of gay people to come out against anything. We’re a diverse bunch.

      About 75% of queer folk are more-or-less tied at the hip to the Democrats.

      Smart queer folks are independents (or affiliated with third parties).

      Because Democrats know they can take our votes and support for granted, they do — election after election. The “leadership” profits tremendously from keeping us in line, providing hundreds of millions of dollars in contributions and unpaid volunteer time every single election cycle — not to mention millions of votes.

      As long as a majority of queer Americans put the Democratic Party’s interests above their own constitutional rights, the conclusion will always be the same.

      The reason why African Americans were able to end Jim Crow and other such monstrosities is because they got the GOP and Democrats competing on a federal level to see who could win support the fastest.

      Democrats and Republicans don’t do that on gay issues, because Democrats know that no matter how nastily they insult or attack gay people, they’ll still get most gay folks to vote for them. Republicans don’t bother taking the risk alienating their wingnut base to reach out, since the reward of peeling off a few independent queer folk isn’t worth the risk.

      We’ve long been the abused spouse of the Democratic Party — working, bringing home the bacon, and professing our love for The Party — only to be beaten and smacked around. The queer “leadership” exists mostly to tell us The Party only beats us because it loves us.

      As long as that’s the status quo, no change will ever come. As long as that’s the status quo, DOMA and DADT will be an established part of law.

      And it WILL remain the status quo as long as knee-jerk defense of the Democratic Party remains the political instinct of a majority of LGBT people. This is one situation where a little independence and tough love would go a long way.

      We need to be the abused spouse packing his bags, putting on his walking shoes, and explaining to the abuser that he’s going to have to pay the rent without us. If he wants us to stay, he needs to turn over a new leaf — not empty promises, but real actions with deadlines and plans for implementation put into action.

      Until that day comes, we’ll be wringing our hands and wheedling about how The Party doesn’t appreciate us.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 6:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      @holden caulfield:

      Did they react politically to Obama’s despicable act in SC the way that these 2 characters did in the movie. More as enablers and sycophants to power and its surrounding glamour – than as CIVIL RIGHTS leaders?

      Of course.

      The game inside the beltway — and in most big, old, ossified LGBT dynasty-bureaucracies — is to feed the bureaucracy.

      The DNC even gives contributions to gay groups like HRC and NGLTF.

      They’re governed by groups of people who make a living out of running groups that do nothing other than make excuses for inaction — and which can be counted on to explain away fuck-ups and betrayals (as long as they come from Democrats).

      Just read the FEC registrations for HRC, for instance. It’s a public record.

      Look at all the six-figure salaries.

      Joe Solomonese makes a cool quarter-million a year. Around a dozen other people make a minimum of $100K.

      Rocking the boat by threatening the Democratic Party’s sell-out sorts, or becoming an advocacy group focused on results, would threaten those big cushy salaries.

      It’s much easier to put out press releases, cover for party machine bosses, and sell equal sign teddy bears from HRC Stores in the Castro, P-Town and online.

      HRC doesn’t have your interests at heart — it hasn’t for at least a decade, if not longer. It exists solely to self-perpetuate, keep its expensive new headquarters building in DC open, and keep its highly-paid staff well-fed and in Armani.

      If you want things to be different, it’s going to require new groups focused on civil rights rather than expensive headquarters, massive salaries, and retail stores.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 6:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • holden caulfield
      holden caulfield

      @Brian Miller: thanks for your response Brian.

      Gotta run but Ill write ya tomorrow.

      Jan 12, 2009 at 7:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 'Johnathan Summers'
      'Johnathan Summers'

      Here’s my two cent.

      First and foremost this is not a personal attack but this will explain from my experiences and to agree on the topic.

      I know for sure that most of the Arabians, Iranians, Turkish and other middle east countries are very racist especially if you have dark skin (hint: Black, Latino, Indian, Indonesian, Malay). I seen it right in front of my eyes when I was in Dubai. I’ve seen how we’ve been mistreated by the ‘same community’.

      Its funny to think when gay community wanted to fight for their rights to be free and appreciated but they forget that in their very own community, everyone is so superficial, and highly demanding. Discrimination is everywhere. There’s so many rules, and believe me, it’s more than being a racist.

      Many gay profiles sites from Manjam, Dudesnude or Gaydar will put this ‘no latinos, tan or dark people please, no offense, it’s just a matter of preference’. ‘Only prefer Chinese’.

      I’m not saying all, but most of the time. If we can’t settle this issue within our gay community, how on earth will there ever be a good example to be show toward the another community?

      God have mercy on us.

      Cheers.

      Jan 13, 2009 at 10:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • seitan-on-a-stick
      seitan-on-a-stick

      So, in conclusion, we all agree that we need more leadership roles for Same-gender loving People of Color both in the Gay Equality Movement and speaking out towards religious bigotry in their community’s churches and other houses of worship but not excluding other religious congregations.

      Why not a television PSA ad? HRC can afford it!

      Jan 13, 2009 at 6:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      I don’t believe in quotas or even formal “leadership roles,” seitan.

      There’s no reason why ANY old queer person cannot be a leader. Just step up to the plate and come up with some neat ideas. Put them into action. Do some heavy lifting.

      One of the things holding back the LGBT community is its present ossified, stilted, top-heavy, do-nothing “leadership” in the big expensive gay groups that have collectively pissed through almost $1 billion in the last 12 years and have nothing to show for it but high salaries and fancy HQ buildings.

      There’s no reason why everyday queer folk of every race, religion, region and political perspective cannot become leaders as a result of their own initiative. In fact, if we want to see progress, that’s the only direction we can and should go.

      Jan 13, 2009 at 7:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @JH:

      if you want to know why christian faith is important to african americans(!) as a group, think about the symbolism of the slaves being “delivered” from egypt.
      that’s a place to start.
      read a book, go to a Black church – open your eyes.
      you do need to forget your color-conscious complaints.
      californians voted on prop 8.
      be positive and constructive.
      you will solve nothing by attempting to blame Black christians for your problems.
      quit being fake, by the way.
      you are “preaching to the choir” and fooling no one with your sanctimony.

      Jan 13, 2009 at 7:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      @Brian Miller:

      what do you mean, honey?

      Jan 13, 2009 at 7:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joan
      Joan

      Hi everybody!

      So, token shallow moronic racist gay white male and token young straight dimwitted homophobic christian black man, because you appear the “only” actors of this problematic here his the token white lesbian soccer mom from suburbia here to give you some not so irrelevant knowlege.

      Is the Gay Community Racist?

      Well the gay community is legitimately a microcosm of the american society. There is your answer boys and girls.

      Why would gay white male be less racist or less sexist than their heterosexual counterparts? Why would a black christian be less hostile to gay rights than any other christian?

      I think that some gay white male are astonishingly shortsighted and socially awkward like uber conservatives. They do not consider their orientation status has equivalent but identical to the status of sex or even the status of ethnicity, making them patronizing, prejudicial and irrational. They feel entitled to the status of victim, has they should, but seldom defend other civil rights victims even if they are from the same community.

      The worst thing about it is that even with it’s small size, being a microcosm, the gay community isn’t able to accurately define itself beyond “upper class” “educated” “liberal” white male.

      Farewell, until the next forum…xoxo

      Jan 14, 2009 at 12:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      That’s correct on the role of gender, race and class and their use in dividing our communites. American society as a whole is awash in different kinds of bigotry.

      But that’s just the beginning. An analysis of how to cut across their effects in the GLBT communities has to include ways to isolate racists like those who blame Blacks for the California vote. And it has to take up the quesiton, often uncomfortable for many, of ways to combat and islolate transphobics like Barney Frank. And how that was used to defeat ENDA.

      Just for starters.

      Jan 14, 2009 at 1:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Buck
      Buck

      Why are we even having this lame discussion? We need to stop worrying about who likes whom and for what reason and get to work making sure that popular votes on Civil Rights is a thing of the past regardless of sex or race. The Prop 8 campaign in the harsh light of day should scare the crap out every minority group in this country. Instead of worrying about whether people will sleep with someone or not and if that makes them “racist” maybe we could point out to our ethnic friends that the next folks on the Right Wing shopping list could well be them.

      Jan 14, 2009 at 4:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sam
      Sam

      @Buck: Call out all your “ethnic” friends hey? Well if that’s not “racist” let’s call it somewhat patronizing and scaremongering. You must be an ardent defender of civil rights and I’m sure you stepped forward on multiple occasions to defend any other minority groups who’s condition and rights were jeopardize by legislations and institutions…right Buck?

      Jan 14, 2009 at 10:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      The worst thing about it is that even with it’s small size, being a microcosm, the gay community isn’t able to accurately define itself beyond “upper class” “educated” “liberal” white male.

      This comment sorta illustrates the myopia with many self-appointed “gay leaders” and “gay commentators” posting from San Francisco, Seattle, Manhattan, W. Hollywood, DuPont Circle, and other white wealthy ultra-liberal enclaves. All they see are other white people, and extrapolate their limited experience in the trendy gay ghettoes with the “gay experience.”

      Come to South Philadelphia, Baltimore, Pittsburgh or St. Louis sometime. Break out of YOUR shell.

      As a Philadelphian myself, I never cease to be amused by white liberals who lecture me about “diversity” yet who choose to live in lily-white enclaves for the wealthy like SF and Manhattan. They’re always ready with some trendy PC “diagnosis” of some group — like white gay men — but in reality, they’re living in a tiny, out-of-touch bubble.

      The vast majority of gay people in this country, of all ethnicities, are struggling to get by every day, just like the average American. Most of the caucasian gay men I know in this city are lower-middle class, scraping by paycheck-to-paycheck. Many of them have partners of another race or ethnicity.

      This whole “gay upper class elite” thing is a contrivance in the liberal enclaves that favor such pretentious posturing over everyday reality. Please leave your biases behind, venture outside of your little bubble, and come see the rest of the world.

      That goes for people like Jasmyn Cannick too. The crowd at the marriage equality rally in Philadelphia included TONS of African American heterosexual people, even families, coming out to defend the rights of their fellow citizens. All the racial divisiveness is corrosive and destructive and many (if not most) of us reject it utterly.

      Stop trying to apply the fucked-upedness of Los Angeles, SF, Manhattan and others to communities that have moved beyond the victimhood/class politics of those cities.

      Jan 14, 2009 at 11:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      Instead of worrying about whether people will sleep with someone or not and if that makes them “racist”

      Thought experiment:

      If one has racial preferences for those with whom he sleeps, and that makes him racist, then…

      Are lesbians sexist for preferring women to men?
      Are gay men misogynist because they don’t sleep with women?
      Are straight women self-loathing?

      Oh, the cans of worms that pop open…

      Jan 14, 2009 at 11:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sparkle obama
      sparkle obama

      the whole question of sexual attraction based on “race” is a red herring, and not really the issue.
      that is a class issue
      (as in, some fags have no class and want to verbalize what might best be kept private)
      please get off the “dating outside of my race” tip.
      that sh*t may be a *symptom*, but let’s choose our battles, ok?
      meanwhile, get ready for the obama administration.
      let’s work together and dial down the hostiity while we put steady, civilized pressure on the white house to achieve our goals.
      let’s respect each other and show compassion to our opponents.
      remember, the whole world is watching.
      gays can do better!

      Jan 14, 2009 at 6:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • seitan-on-a-stick
      seitan-on-a-stick

      Brian Miller – Philly may get better on the next upswing in the Housing Market. Meanwhile, your struggle to form bonds with locals based on your perceptions of others should not negate the need for Leadership Roles in the Gay Community being held by People of Color (Black, Latino, Asian and Native American!) if it was quotas, maybe you’d be looking at a mandatory 50% of positions held by African-Americans as your fear-stoking may suggest. With our first African-American President, then perhaps we are moving away from the need for Affirmative Action. Right now, it’s needed like Hate Crimes protections, a woman’s right to choose and disability rights. You allude to one important fact: Gay men have lower incomes than Lesbians, Straight Women and Straight Men because of one intrinsic reason: AIDS and the stigma towards Gay Men in Employment related to AIDS regardless of their status. I believe the source was Queers for Economic Justice.

      Jan 14, 2009 at 7:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from  England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      @Joan:

      I agree!

      Thank YOU!

      At least you are calling ‘a spade a spade’!

      Jan 14, 2009 at 7:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Fred Walker
      Fred Walker

      @Brian Miller: Sorry Mr. Miller, but your logical approach, thought legitimate, isn’t quite accurate. We all know that our ethnic preferences are a result of or cultural experience, exposure and prejudice, may it be meliorative or pejorative. They can’t be acknowledge has a biological predisposition. Ethnic preferences is has irrelevant than religious beliefs. Are christians/social conservatives more likely homophobic? Yes. Is ethnocentric sexual preference somewhat racist? Yes.

      Jan 14, 2009 at 8:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alfredo Munoz
      Alfredo Munoz

      An all to familiar and easy indictment as we hasten to fulfill the Orwellian prophecy i.e. “you are racist”,”you are an
      anti-semite” etc.It won’t be long before the re-education camps are implemented.Whatever happened to the First Amendment?Oh wait I see how it works now.

      Jan 14, 2009 at 10:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alfredo Munoz
      Alfredo Munoz

      BTW Who was the lame ass that quoted Bishop Tu Tu? How cloyingly trite was that pompous gasp.

      Jan 14, 2009 at 10:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sedadrark
      Sedadrark

      Whats Up My name is Susan

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      Jan 23, 2009 at 7:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pietcauccuh
      Pietcauccuh

      Hi!

      I’m looking for a LDS online dating site. I haven’t been able to find many. I’ve found some christian dating sites,
      but I was wondering if there were any sites that were geared towards Later Day Saints religion. It’s hard to
      find a lot of other LDS online daters wanting to chat – at least, I haven’t been able to. Does anyone know of any?

      Like I said, I’ve tried some christian ones, but not really what I’m looking for. I really hope they’re out there!

      If not a dating site, perhaps any type of chat or group related to LDS.

      thanks!

      Apr 28, 2009 at 11:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Biit
      Biit

      Gays can be very racist just as blacks and Mexicans seem to be extremely loud with their racism. As a straight and black person who is against racism I have turned on many blacks myself who are racist, and I will turn on gays who exhibit racism. In the case of gays they’ll probably have lots to say about me calling them out considering I’m straight. I don’t really care I don’t tolerate racists.

      May 30, 2009 at 8:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • negroairman
      negroairman

      @faghag:
      I’m a same gender loving blakc man and to me all the defensive apologies left on this page pretty much prove that the gay community is incredibly racist.

      The fact that so many white same gender loving folks insist on focusing on the myth of black homophobia reveals to me their deeply indoctrinated racism. As I see it, the problem is that most white folks only define racism as the most blatant, Archie Bunker type of racial bigotry and are too defensive and deeply in denail to deal with their own, more subtle racism.

      This YouTube video pretty much says it all for me.
      (it was produced by Big Black Lips productions and I’m posting it on youtube with their permission)

      Prop 8, Queer Racism and the myth of black homophobia

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6XYMNf8CZA

      The description reads:

      Our video documents the racism in the white dominated Gay Marriage movement from the cultural appropriation of the civil rights movement that sprung from the Black churches, to the blatant racism of the prop 8 rallies, to the subtle and not so subtle racism of those trying to rationalize the overt racism that surfaced in the white LGBT community after prop 8 passed in California.
      “Beneath this claim is an uninterrogated idea that people of color are “more homophobic” than white people. Such an idea equates gayness with whiteness and erases the lives of LGBT people of color. It also erases and marginalizes the enduring radical work of LGBT people of color organizing that has prioritized the most vulnerable members of our communities.
      Current conversations about Prop 8 hide how the same-sex marriage battle has been part of a conservative gay politics that de-prioritizes people of color, poor people, trans people, women, immigrants, prisoners and people with disabilities. Why isn’t Prop 8’s passage framed as evidence of the mainstream gay agenda’s failure to ally with people of color on issues that are central to racial and economic justice in the US?”
      — Dean Spade and Craig Willse

      For more information on this topic go to:
      http://bigblacklips.blogspot.com/

      http://www.jasmynecannick.com

      http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-cannick8-2008nov08,0,3295255.story

      http://orvillelloyddouglas.wordpress.com/2007/10/30/watch-out-for-the-racist-white-gay-mafia-racist-against-black-people/

      If the marriage equality people had any intelligence, cultural literacy or cultural sensitivity at all, they would be trying to figure out where they went wrong in their offensive advertising, not blaming black folks for everything. Don’t forget the Navajo also voted against gay marriage in their community for much the same reasons that the sharpest, most radical black, same gender loving folks are trying to tell you. The question is, can white folks let go of their entitlement, arrogance and defensiveness long enough to listen to and to HEAR folks of color telling you why you are all wrong on making gay marriage your single issue.

      As far as those whites who think they are “leading” the gay marriage movement goes, there are none so blind as those who will not see and there are none so deaf as those who will not LISTEN.

      To all the white gays making excuses on this board, prop 8 can be your wake up call, or you can go back to sleep. That’s what white privilege is all about, the freedom to sleepwalk through life and that’s what you’re really fighting for.
      WAKE UP!

      Jun 13, 2009 at 4:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jifunza
      jifunza

      Negroairman, you are correct in your assesment, but we need to go further towards reconcilliation.

      One of my online friends has a post that explains why whites go crazy everytime people of color try to talk to them about their whiteness, their entitlement and their deeply rooted racism. You don’t grow up white in this society without being subject to a lot of indoctrination regarding how superior you are to non-whites. I don’t care how enlightend or well intentioned you think you are, every white person is affected by the racist society we all live in. Being bombarded by systematic racism every day of your life has to have an effect on you.

      I feel we all need to remember that it’s not necessarily a bad thing to succumb to that indoctrination, we all do to some extent, but anyone who claims to be a progressive needs to take the responsibility for challenging themselves daily to overcome that indoctrination. Trying to quantify the degree of racism that white LGBT folks have is pointless and irrelevant. We all need to stop that.

      The point is, the white LGBT community as a whole has been extremely resistant to confronting the racism they all share, due to the meme that you can’t be racist if you are a member of a persecuted group. We need to destroy this meme and move past it. It doesn’t matter how racist anyone is, we’re all racist and we all need to work on ourselves. If you look at the delusional and defensive comments by whites on this board, it’s easier to understand why they go ballistic whenever the subject of racism is addressed. Nevertheless, we have to get beyond that defensiveness on onto productive dialogue. We can’t afford to be divided. Blaming black folks and insisting that they come out, act like white folks and adopt the same priorities as white folks is equally pointless. Black and white folks need to listen to each other and accept that the two groups have different prioritites. We need to talk about why that is.

      Wayne is a perfect example of a white person so deeply in denial that his high self-esteem prevents him from obtaining healthy self-esteem. As persecuted people, we need to all agree it isn’t our fault that we’re fucked up, but it is our responsibility to do everything we can to get healthy. It’s not ok to just stay fucked up and live in a fantasy world. That’s as unhealthy as substance abuse.

      Here’s the study:

      Test Subject: White Privilege

      *A White person may benefit from fighting White privilege, because if s/he accepts the existence of White privilege, s/he will develop a healthier self-esteem.

      *High self-esteem is not always healthy self-esteem. High self-esteem is not the same thing as healthy self-esteem, according to psychology research from the University of Georgia. Those with fragile high self-esteem are more likely to be verbally defensive compared to those with secure high self-esteem

      *According to the news release, people with fragile high self-esteem: compensate for their self-doubts by engaging in exaggerated tendencies to DEFEND, protect and enhance their feelings of self-worth are verbally defensive; they lash out at others when their opinions, beliefs, statements or values are threatened feel that potential threats are more threatening and work harder to counteract these threats

      *One reason the study’s findings are important, is that it shows that greater verbal defensiveness relates to lower psychological well-being and life satisfaction.

      *Defensive Whites have a fragile high racial self-esteem. The study is not about race, but the idea of distinguishing between secure high self-esteem and fragile high self-esteem can be applied to Whites view of themselves. Whites with secure high racial self-esteem can accept themselves warts and all and can accept that society confers privilege on them due to their skin color, while Whites with fragile high racial self-esteem will lash out at the mere possibility that our society is not a meritocracy.

      *A person with fragile high self-esteem has a superficial sense of confidence, but when his self-perception is challenged by reality, he suffers from cognitive dissonance and anxiety. Whites with fragile high racial self-esteem have uncritically bought into the (implicit) culture of White supremacy due to our history books and entertainment media that focus on White achievement and White heroes. Because of this, any evidence that challenges this world view becomes a psychological threat.

      For example, if a black person is admitted to an Ivy League university, the fragile White will defend his feelings of self-worth by believing that the black person was admitted because of Affirmative Action. If a black person speaks eloquently, the fragile White will manage his/her cognitive dissonance by not thinking of him/her as black, and may even state outright, I don’t think of you as black. If a black person is more perceptive than the average White person in recognizing racism, the fragile White will blame the black person and lash out verbally by calling him/her oversensitive or a “reverse racist”. If the topic of racism is broached, the fragile White will accuse the topic broacher of playing the race card or of overreacting, mention that his family never owned any slaves, try to explain away a controversy as a desire to adhere to political correctness, mention that minorities can be racist against Whites, or mention that his/her best friend or lover is black.

      A person with fragile high self esteem cannot stand any criticism of his/her politics, intellectual capabilities or sense of superior enlightened state, especially by those s/he considers inferior. The slightest criticism will invite hostile outburst, ad hominem attacks and a desperate need to change the subject by introducing irrelevant and highly abstract arguments or pointing fingers at those who are more flawed. An irrational need to quantify and rank character flaws is also an indication of a white person with fragile high self esteem.

      We have all got to get past this defensiveness.

      If you are white, when you get done hyper-ventillating, take some time to think about whether this applies to you. It probably does to some extent. Think about whether you want your whiteness to limit you, or if you want to have healthy self-esteem. We need to get past the type of bullshit expressed on this board if we are to move forward.

      For those white LGBT folks who want to start doing anti-racist work so that they can build a bridge to queers of color, I would recommend watching the google videos by Tim Wise. He’s a mainstream looking white guy who is more accessible to white folks than scary, angry folks of color.

      go to google videos and type in these titles:
      Tim Wise – The Pathology of White Privilege
      Tim Wise – Racism, White Denial & the Cost of Inequality
      Tim Wise: White Like Me

      He talks about how remaining racist and remaining in denial about it harms you and keeps you from being a fully actualized human being. We’re all damaged enough by this society without that.

      The only really anti-racist white folks I know are those who have moved toward healthy self-esteem by not trying to pretend they’re given up white skin privilege simply because they love someone of the same gender and who have done a lot of serious meditation and journaling on the subject.

      No one can make you confront your racism until YOU want to do the work. It’s a life-long journey, it’s not something you do once at a workshop and then never think of again.

      In the long run, I feel it’s a good thing that this question generated so many extreme commnents. I think that it’s very healthy that LGBT people of color and LGBT white people are finally starting to talk to each other about race.

      Katura

      Jun 14, 2009 at 10:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • westwoodfuntimes
      westwoodfuntimes

      http://www.adam4adam.com/?p=westwoodfuntimes

      is racist.

      westwoodfuntimes: hi not into asians go get a life and learn better english.

      Aug 23, 2009 at 4:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • HI2LA4U
      HI2LA4U

      This weho guy says dumb gook against asian.
      I am very sad.
      He believes ONLY WHITE GAYS are beautiful and good looking.

      Aug 31, 2009 at 12:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Hotstraightjock
      Hotstraightjock

      http://www.adam4adam.com/?p=Hotstraightjock
      This white gay shit is racist

      Sep 5, 2009 at 12:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jay
      jay

      Listening to articualte moronics used to justify the bigotry at play within an alleged gay “community” makes even more sense for people to stay in the closet.

      But THANK YOU to all those media driven ideals that only serve a particular monotone version of alleged beauty and even greater THANK YOU to those bar owners who silently endorse stealth hatred and the GREATEST THANK YOU goes to all those who are stupid enough to buy into it in the first place.

      Oct 19, 2009 at 11:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • newmembersforutoo
      newmembersforutoo

      I just wanted to say Hi because this is the first time I am ever posting on a forum. I do not know if this is allowed or not to post here, but I hope I won’t be banned from me. So be happy for me that I finally achieved posting on a forum after many years of neglect!

      Nov 18, 2009 at 10:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darryl
      Darryl

      The gay community has a plethora of “Waynes”. Apologists who feel better deflecting the issue of race onto another culture or the straight community, in the “I’m-dirty-but-you’re-filthy” manner of negative comparison so coveted by the racist right. In my case, I’ve had my partner accosted and asked, “what are you with that (n-word) for, when you could be with me?” I’ve been called the n-word in a gay bar more than once, I’ve been told “ecch…get away from me”…and unfortunately far worse indignities…all perpetrated by the gay community and ALL due to thte color of my skin. Those pitiful excuses non-white gay men give should be in public domain by now. “I’m just not attracted to blacks!” My response perenially is…why? Is there something wrong with you? Have you some social dysfunction? White gay males think nothing of tossing off these little racial bon-mots then sleeping with man after white man and wondering why they’re so horribly unhappy and cannot find love. The answer is that racists, admitted or not, can’t love anybody.

      Nov 20, 2009 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Greg
      Greg

      As a gay black male, I’ve personally discovered the gay male community and culture as a whole is racist. Gay black men and other gay minorities are mostly invisible in the gay media, whether it be in gay magazines, gay publications, gay films, or in tv shows. The young, fit, gay white male seems to be something that most gay men want to attain. And this has a great affect on how most gay men look for friendship and love. I can’t begin to tell you how many racist encounters I’ve encountered from other gay men who were either Asian, White, or Latino. They don’t even want to have an honest platonic friendship just because of the color of my skin. And we share the exact same interests!

      I use to think maybe I was overreacting, but after mingling and socializing with gay men since the mid 1990′s and still experiencing rampant bigotry from most of them, I can say emphatically that gay racism is alive and well in the gay culture. And as a gay black man, this makes me feel angry, depress, and sad. If I could be straight, I would. Because at this stage of my life, I would have been happily married to a female, had children, and not had to put up with all the baggage being gay brings. Because for me and some other black men who I’ve spoken with, being gay and black is a depressing and sad experience. We tend to be looked at as ugly and not worthy to be friends with nor have a relationship with. It also seems we’re not even worthy to be in most gay publications, tv shows, or films compared to our gay white male counterparts. Who would’ve thought my greatest disappoint and sadness would come from gay society and not straight society. I now know why most gay men suffer from depression and suicidal tendencies. It’s because of the lack of emotional support one receives from the gay male culture and the utter shallowness it presents. If you’re a gay man of color, the odds are you’ll feel very isolated within the gay culture.

      Nov 23, 2009 at 3:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
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      Nov 29, 2009 at 5:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Gay Person
      Gay Person

      I agree that racism does exist in the gay community. If gays are fighting for equal rights but turn around and discriminate against their gay ethnic minorities, they are basically being hypocrites.

      Dec 2, 2009 at 4:32 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chrysandi
      Chrysandi

      Absolutely RIGHT!
      In france,if you gay and brown skin…french gay guys will look at you aslike you are a shit!

      Dec 8, 2009 at 7:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chrysandi
      Chrysandi

      I am asian from South East Asia,and travels to european countries.
      When i chatting with guys in gay site,or in bar places ….mostly questioned ..but,its meant..
      “Where are you come from?”
      ( They look at my dark skin)

      “What you doing in here?”
      ( They thoughts i do prostitutes myself)

      “You have a job?”(They thoughts i was born and lived in europe,they don’t want to know you more if you not born in here)

      “You have a nice skin”
      (he has dark skin,i prefer chinese)

      “You have a boyfriend ?”
      (If you have a boyfriend,i don’t mind to have sexdate but if you have no boyfriend i do not want to be your boyfriend)

      But,mostly IF you are asian and dark skin and you were not born in Europe,they will thinking bad about you…maybe they have reasons,but nothing to do with me!

      Anyhow,i still feel being racism in France…But, don’t go anymore to gay places.. I afraid and still paranoid to get racism!

      XXX

      Dec 8, 2009 at 8:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Z Zing
      Z Zing

      The hypocrisy is just rife in the postings following the article. Bless anyone who states “I PREFER certain races”. Oh please, like you good enough to suck my dick in the first place?

      Bottom line, this social obession with being homogenous and homosexual is a crock. There is NO gay community rather a gathering of a few vocal bitches touting their own agenda deluded by their feelings of grandeur. Bless you and FORGET you!

      Dec 13, 2009 at 2:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darryl
      Darryl

      White gay community…STOP using race as a device.

      Dec 15, 2009 at 4:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • J Cross
      J Cross

      @Z Zing…You bear a righteous anger my friend. Though I might not have said it as abrasively, I echo your sentiment. The gay community ultimately appears to be an amalgam of several cliques. The illusion of diversity is created by the fact that in most cities, towns or rural areas, there are only a certain number of bars or locations that cater almost exclusively to members of the GLBT community. I am not an old or young man, but I have in my time seen enough of the gay community to compare it more with a metropolitan social scene as opposed to mainstream society. Members of the gay majority, in this case, white gays, not only have token friends of diversity; but also token causes and agendas. For the vast majority of my life as a black gay man, I have been more readily and unconditionally accepted in the straight community than amongst my fellow gays (and I live in the reddest of states haha).

      I take exception to the statement that the statement “I only date (insert race or races)” is not a racist statement. My fundamental definition (and I believe most peoples’ definition falls along this same line) of racism is a predetermined bias or prejudice of another person based on their race. So though you may not be burning crosses on lawns or refusing to crack jokes with your black, asian or latino coworkers; you’re excluding yourself from contact with an entire race or races of people.

      On another note; racism isn’t dead; but nor is it as bad as it has ever been. The election of a black president would only signal “the end” of racism if the election of a black president wasn’t news.

      Dec 15, 2009 at 11:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • youtbronewxs
      youtbronewxs

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9lz7zQRp0I
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      Dec 16, 2009 at 5:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Z Zing
      Z Zing

      @ J Cross. I do hear you on the points brought to mind but I wouldn’t consider my accurate rendition of the “gay community” as abrasive rather it doesn’t deserve false piety.

      Politically – what has been achieved for gay men and women at large? SERIOUSLY! Not fucken very much. Then these cheesey queens have the nerve of wanting to cash in on civil rights? Oh please Mary!

      I tire of the falsities touted as truth by these Hitler loving bastards! I have to call it as I see it ’cause acknowledging the problem at the very least affords us ALL a perspective on finding a veritable solution for lesbians and gay men regardless of ethnic background.

      Why the rant? ‘Cause I want future generations to be free of this shit once and for all. Not to be reduced to some bar hopping or website cruising troglodyte fascinated by an imposed racial heirarchy (which has no basis in scientific fact let alone reality) and truly embrace their uniqueness.

      I am going to leave at that for now.

      Dec 26, 2009 at 10:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
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    • Amarilla
      Amarilla

      Yes there is racism. I have experienced it first hand. It’s rarely the aggressive, slanderous type. But it’s there. I’m not going to comment on racism between the gay community and outside groups, but rather racism within the community.

      The community is undoubtedly sex-oriented. Or romance-oriented, for you sensitive types. People have their own turn ons. But gay people seem to be the pickiest, from experience.

      Either some guy will say “whites only” or chase after Asians… People are free to choose who they associate with. But it says something about the people who make up the community.
      From experience, every guy that I’ve met who was a “rice queen” had self-esteem issues and unhealthy perceptions and stereotypes of Asian people. It’s sickening. It’s a silent, passive racism that slowly builds barriers and degrades society.

      Not all Gay people are racist. But I think the western gay community has to face the same issues as the heteronormative western society. Since they are both centered around priveleged white male paradigms and ideals.

      The gay community has a lot of issues to sort out before it tackles on others. But no one outside will criticise them because they are afraid of being labeled a homophobe. So its up to us in the gay community to educate people. But I’m afraid it falls on deaf ears.

      But I believe that’s because the western gay community has some severe flaws from the get-go. But that’s for another discussion.

      That being said, don’t fight the ignorance of other people with your own ignorance. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

      Jul 26, 2012 at 10:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sean_brown21
      sean_brown21

      @JonDorian: I have to disagree with comment on how “preference is preference”. If we were all on an even playing field, where there was total and complete racial equality; then we could possibly say that everyone has had the same experience being rejected because if their race. You, yourself said you were a victim of this racial stratification; yet here you are denying its existence?

      Feb 20, 2014 at 11:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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