It’s that time of the week, when Queerty takes a break from the opinion-making and puts you, the readers, in charge. Each Friday, we invite you to be the pundit on a hot-button question facing the LGBT community and its allies. As always, we expect people to be respectful and considerate of others by refraining from personal attacks. We present the information, you make the decision.
Plucked from a codeine-filled obscurity in the national consciousness, conservative radio shock jock Rush Limbaugh returned over the last two weeks to earn the title of the head of the Republican Party after newly-elected RNC Chairman Michael Steele was forced to apologize for calling him “an entertainer.”
All well and fun– and great news for Democrats, but the return of Rush really points to the power vacuum within the current Republican party. Rush may not be elected, but he is persuasive (to you know– a certain segment of the Republican Party) and in the battle for the soul of conservatism, Limbaugh’s winning out over moderates.
For us, this makes us think about the gay community and its own leadership. With just about everyone confessing that the No on 8 campaign was poorly run– and just about every gay organization having a hand in it in some way or another, we’ve seen in the past few months, angry gays and lesbians calling for new leadership– and some grassroots-based activists ready and willing to step up to the plate.
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
The situation’s only aggravated by the release of Milk, which showed us what a charismatic, persuasive and unrelenting LGBT rights leader looks like. In the battle for the soul of the LGBT rights movement, who’s in charge? Is it the Human Rights Campaign’s Joe Solomonese? What about the Courage Campaign’s Rick Jacobs or Amy Balliett of Join the Impact? Or, is it, like Rush, someone from the media? Is Michelangelo Signorile the voice of gay America? Certainly gay rights are won by no single person, but when we talk about “our gay leaders” who do we mean?
We put it to you: Who’s in charge of the gay rights movement?
atdleft
At this point, there really is no particular leader. However, that may change in the coming months when we deal with whatever fallout that occurs from the CA court decision. And even with possible high profile battles emerging over civil unions in Hawaii, New Mexico, and Illinois, and over marriage in Iowa, Maine, New Jersey, and New York, it seems for now that California will be center stage until the Prop H8 mess is cleaned up once and for all.
So who’s in charge? No one for now. However, I’d keep my eye on Amy Balliett from JTI & Rick Jacobs from Courage. Amy especially is part of the new generation of activists emerging, the “Stonewall 2.0” that, in the words of my beloved Dixie Chicks, are not ready to make nice with H8ers. I just hope the fresh faces and young spirits reinvigorate the movement and lead us into victory.
Wolf
The problem is no one is “in charge” and the few that take control have no BALLS.
Lets look at it this way.
Look at our enemies.
Their HATE and organizations are set up like a HUGR CORPORATION.
They Have Various RELIGIONS, Right Wing Pols and FOCUS on the Family as National Parent Orgs. Then undernrath them they have medium sized Organizations and beneath them they have State and Local Orgabizations.
The National Parent groups get INVOLVED in EVERY BATTLE IN EVERY STATE and CALL UPON ALL GROUPS BEANEATH THEM TO GET INVOLVED. They fund and give guidance and help. And their goal is to WIN NO MATTER WHAT. They are very well organized and work together no matter what thier differences to win.
Then you have us. OUR National Organizations (HRC, ect.) which concentrate mostly on lobbying and fundraising ONLY for their OWN Organizations and are not specifically tied to or work actively or with with medium sized groups (Like State Equality Groups) and leave the battles up to them and thier States ALONE and do not take it to a National level. And the smaller grassroots organizations are also splintered off and have to support themselves. Added to the fact that most of these groups want to take the moral HIGH GROUND (Join the impact doesn’t boycott…. and shit like that) and they don’t work together with groups that they don’t agree with with we are fractured beyond belief.
There is NO LEADERSHIP or ORGANIZATION from the top to the bottom and what there is plays way too nice. Thast why we lose.
Qjersey
Lorri Jean from the LA LGBT Center thinks she is in charge while Solomonese struggles to be relevant (although the HRC has been upping its ante lately).
Queerty should ask us for nominees and let us vote!
Wolf
Sorry about the typos. I am waaaaaaaaay too tired and mad.
Wolf
After the major mishandling and bungling of the “No on 8 Campaign” by Lori Jean and Geoff Kors its beyond me why we are not all calling for them to step down and resign and replace them with better people.
If we don;t fix and reorganize we will never win.
John Visser
I’ve been asking myself this question since November 4th. Our community has lots of groups, lots of activists, and lots of passion. We have events taking place almost constantly. But, we are almost entirely ignored by the media.
Case in point, I helped organize the Raleigh Join the impact protest on Nov 15th had two media outlets show up – one mainstream newspaper and a college public access channel. We had 1,400 protesters at the state legislative building and not a single mention on TV. The single article in the newspaper showed one photo of a straight couple that looked like hippies (I have nothing against hippies) with tattoos and piercings and tie-dyed clothes. I was there and they were absolutely not representative of the average person in attendance.
In contrast, this past Tuesday, the right-wing group Restore America held a traditional marriage rally in the same place at the state legislative building and had estimated attendance of between 1,000 to 2,000. Basically the same scenario except the opposite viewpoint. I drove by to check out the competition and counted 4 TV crews and three newspapers. And, get this, a helicopter from one of the TV stations flying overhead video taping the damn thing. That night, it was obvious the local news had picked up the story as just about every media outlet in Raliegh was talking about it.
My conclusion is that we DO NEED a national charismatic and strong leader who will attract the media’s attention.
John Visser
Raleigh, NC
PS – My fiancee of six years and I are moving to Connecticut in three weeks and will be getting married within a month or so!! Wish us luck!!
PearlsBeforeSwine
No ONE person speaks for the gay community. Since our community is focused on promoting tolerance of diversity, it is a good thing that the community is so diverse.
Mike in MO
What about Dan Savage? I don’t agree with him on everything, but overall he is forceful, articulate, intelligent, & so damn cute…
rigs
that’s hard to answer. Honestly as a gay person involved in some of these protests and other activities, I can’t name a single person, and that’s a problem. other communities can name someone on the spot, we can’t. AND being the head of an organization with little name recognition doesn’t qualify you as a leader, we need someone with a voice
scott
at this point, the leader of the gay rights movement is the right wing. They’re the one setting our agenda on a single focus on marriage.
Chitown Kev
@rigs:
No one right now.
Dan Savage does have the visibiliy to do itit but he is entirely too polarizing to take this on, plus he’s not very diplomatic.
Chitown Kev
not directed at you rigs, my apology…not directed at anyone, really.
atdleft
@Chitown Kev: Yeah, Dan Savage shot himself in both feet when he parroted the now debunked CNN exit poll showing “70% black support for H8!” and called on protests outside black churches. He took the right-wing bait and I fear he has become too polarizing… And he has no one to blame but himself for going along with the “race wars” BS.
As I said above, grassroots groups like Join The Impact & Courage Campaign are showing the right way forward. Nonviolent protest, grassroots organizing, and real community action are the way forward. I look forward to seeing new leaders and new wins emerging from the ashes of H8.
LikaStarr
@John Visser:
Congratulations and best wishes to both of you 🙂
atdleft
@LikaStarr: Yes, congrats to @John Visser! 🙂
Chitown Kev
@atdleft:
Yeah, I mean, my feelings on Savage are very, very complicated (heck, we marched in front of Mormon temples and Catholic Churches, why not fundamentalist churches that are predominantly AA (take a few AA LGBT’s with you for that, though. I’d have joined that).
And besides that, the whole slobber on Gary Bauer’s doorknob and his support for the Iraq war in addition to that…
Chitown Kev
Congrats John Visser!
ceazer
@Mike in MO: Dan Savage? Most gay people of color have an issue with him.Maybe the statements he makes about people of color are true, maybe, but his rhetoric is still divisive and divisive doesn’t work, hey look at Rush and republicans.
Flex
If Gavin drops out of the Governor’s race, in California, we should recruit him. He may be out of power, but he should lead the HRC. He is very articulate, and has a whirl-wind energy when he confronts powerful religious leaders on their homophobic attitudes.
Joe, S. of the HRC is ineffective. I receive more emails from the HRC about gay entertainment than I do useful information regarding gay rights. Gavin Newsome has the power to bridge various social networks, and deliver on gay rights results!
Chitown Kev
@Flex:
Newsom could be a powerful voice but I want a GLBT as our go to leader on a national level.
John Visser
I wholeheartedly agree about Gavin Newsome. The problem though is while he is a serious advocate for gay rights, as long as he has his eye on the governor’s mansion he will not be available.
And thanks for the congrats on my upcoming wedding!!!
Timmeeeyyy
There is no “Gay Community.” Rather it is a mix of many communities and individuals which share some injustices and strive for some shared goals. There is no one leader, nor should there be. It will take the work of thousands of leaders to bring about equality in this country.
Similarly, there was no single leader of the black civil rights movement, although MLK has become the symbol of that movement. It took the work of Rosa Parks, Thurgood Marshall, Stokely Carmichael, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, the Little Rock Nine, Pres, Johnson and countless others who all contributed to the enactment of civil rights laws.
Instead of asking asking who’s in charge and how have they failed us, we should be making our list of the thousands who are bringing about change in this country. We should be asking them how we can help, how we can support, and how can they inspire us to each do our part as well. Five or ten people will not change this country, but millions will.
RichardR
To answer Japhy’s forum question, obviously, no one is in charge of the gay rights movement. Our “leaders” are self-appointed, generally heads or spokespersons for national organizations, each with its own focus or agenda, and media people, all with their respective jobs, and as previous posters have pointed out, some with their baggage.
I’d say the closest we have to a “leader” organization — that is, one with a broad, national, general organizing mission,in contrast to Lamda Legal, whose mission is courts, or HRC, whose mission is lobbying, would be the Task Force NGLTF, “Creating Change”). Its Executive Director, Rea Carey, seems very low-profile to me — can’t think I’ve ever seen her on TV, so don’t know how effective she is as a public face. Plus Queerty dissed NGLTF big time, imo unfairly, when analyzing non-profits last holiday season.
Scott, #10 above, points out, interestingly, that we are being led by the right wing. While our diversity is our strength, it also leads to the “herding cats” problem we’ve discussed in response to previous articles.
I’d love to see us take that leadership from passive, per Scott, to active, but how to designate a leader?
I like #3 QJersey’s suggestion that we send Japhy our suggestions and ask him to push the idea.
I’d nominate many of the already-mentioned men and women (Signorile, Savage, Carey) plus the glorious Rachel Maddow, except that she’s way too busy. And how ’bout Japhy?
and because of our diversity, a single leader would
Chitown Kev
@Timmeeeyyy:
Of course not, but MLK was and is the most prominent face of the black civil rights movement, make no bones about that. Maybe that’s a better way to ask this question.
I could deal with Signorile, myself.
Chris
I think this is an interesting question because it points to two fundamental issues within the GLBT movement. The first is a lack of cohesion around our own rights. We don’t have a leader because there are too many different points of view to lead. Rather than coalescing around a single point and attempting to get our agenda passed (I will use ENDA as an example) we prefer to splinter our opinion. When ENDA was proposed and trans rights had to be sacrificed for viability, did the religious right condemn the move as political? Did Rush Limbaugh offer a critique of our failure to be resolute or our moral backtracking? No, in fact the only people who criticized the move were the very people attempting to get it passed. We are not only our own worst enemies, we are the reason that we perpetually get the back of the bus in politics and the media.
The leader of the GLBT movement would have to be someone with real gravitational pull, like Barack Obama, because our myriad organizations are unlikely to pull together capriciously or easily. Gavin Newsome does present an interesting option, especially because he is outside the GLBT letters by which we are defined. However, his lascivious past may cripple our movement as much as his charisma and chutzpah would move it forward.
The second problem with the GLBT movement is our lack of outreach to other organizations. We are by no means the first group to have our civil rights imperiled, but as a group we rarely reach out to groups who have already beaten this challenge for support or advice. We are determined to reinvent every wheel we come across, and ridiculously let everyone have input so the process moves as slowly as possible.
I would suggest that we look to other civil rights organizations (NAACP, NOW, UFW, etc.) to create a larger collective that is universally motivated toward advancing the rights of suspect class groups and ending discrimination and subjugation to the majority. That might even provide us with a leader in one of those groups rather than succumbing to the rancorous infighting that would likely ensue if there were an effort to establish an official “GLBT Leadership”.
Scooter J
I would like to be in charge of the gay rights movement. What are my qualifications, you ask? Let me explain my qualifications by telling you what I am not and what I will not do:
1. I am not a leader who espouses fashion shows over political action. And although fashion shows can be good sources of contributions, these contributions should not be used to fund more fashion shows.
2. I am not a media whore who surrounds myself with the “pretty” people to push my organization’s brand, (notice I did not say “agenda”) forward.
3. I am not someone who in the thick of the battle decides that my personal time and relaxation is more important than the day-to-day management of the cause. Granted I do have a Blackberry, but I won’t run the organization by proxy from some exotic foreign beach location.
4. I will not “spin” the realities of our current situation, especially to expoit the fundraising efforts of my organization. When my attorneys present unprepared, weak and disjointed arguments, I will not publicaly praise them, I will remove them from the organization as any reputable law firm would.
5. My organization will never send out a last minute plea for contributions just for the sake of keeping the administration operating without already having cut the budget to the bone, including my own salary.
6. My organization will operate under the rule of complete and total transparency. We will never meet in secret, we will never bar the media from participating and even though we may be showing our cards to our opponents, we will try and make every single person fell like they are a part of the movement.
7. I am not and over-exagerator, I am a realist and understand that our cause will move forward with small steps rather than unrealistic giant, unattainable leaps. I also understand we will have setbacks and disappointments, but rather than playing the blame game, we will rally the generals and learn from our mistakes.
In short, I am an American gay man or woman who passionately wants to push for a better life for my brothers and sisters across this wonderful country. I am one of the millions of extremely talented, charismatic, smart and saavy men and women in this country who can contribute more than just money, if I could only break through the ridiculous fraternities and sorotities that have been created for this cause.
Where do I sign up?
petted
In a bit of a rock and a hard place here aren’t we (double entendre noted)? If we have more aggressive leaders then we’ll be those radical militant gays which to some extent strengthens Senator scary Kern and state Senator Palpatine Buttars who want to present us as terrorists. But if we don’t have aggressive leaders then our friends most notably the party leadership of the Democrats tends to let things slide. This of course is a balancing act but I think there are underlying questions that needs to be asked.
Where do you think the focus in the battle for our rights be? Should it be in the sanctioned halls of politics in state and national capitals? Or out on the streets, door to door across the nation? Do we need a leader who can inspire others or do we need a leader who will inspire ourselves?
Chitown Kev
@petted:
all of the above would be the correct answer.
strumpetwindsock
We need to keep organizing ourselves within our communities and governments, not waiting for the messiah to turn up and show us the way.
Let’s do our part of the work, and if someone is destined to show up and light a fire under the movement, so much the better.
But let’s not wait and do nothing until that happens, because if we do nothing it never will.
John Durkin
It is to the advantage of the movement to secure equal rights for all of us that NO ONE IN PARTICULAR is in charge… it says something about the movement itself and its universality.
There need not be a particular face or specific charismatic leader, because that would just exclude people who don’t identify with that person from the movement. Equal Rights for all humans regardless of gender or sexual orientation is something that all humans regardless of gender or sexual orientation can and should stand behind.
If people need a leader to spur them into action, then we need many leaders of all races, genders, and sexual orientations… from every background imaginable… and I think those people exist on smaller local levels.
Equal Rights for all humans should be a universal concern that does not depend on any cult of personality.
JD
Anthony in Nashville
There are not a single “gay leader,” there are leaders of sects of the LGBT community. I’ve been out since I was 17 (now 33) and I have yet to find a wholly inclusive gay group.
For example, I think many black gays would say Keith Boykin or Rod McCollum are the best, most vocal leaders. Some may say Jasmyne Cannick or Pam Spaulding.
The A-list white gays would possibly say the leader of HRC.
The mainstream gays would offer Dan Savage.
Older-school activists might say Larry Kramer or Signorile.
I have no clue who the “lesbian” leader is. Maddow?
I’m sure the bears have their own go-to people for leadership.
Conservatives have Dale Carpenter or the guy with the Advocate.
My opinion is that gay people come in too many different flavors for there to be an effective “community.” It’s more like a bunch of niches.
craigers
No, that is our problem. It is why we lost Prop. 8 and have failed to see any movement on federal things such as ENDA. We need Harvey.
Chitown Kev
@Anthony in Nashville:
Yeah, and I think we should use it as a strength rather than a weakness.
John in SF
@Timmeeeyyy: Ditto
Ali
The lesbian leader could be Sarah Warn of AfterEllen. She’s the most prominent media activist for lesbians. The most prominent political activist for lesbians is probably Pam of Pam’s House Blend. Rachel Maddow and Ellen DeGeneres are limited in terms of the activism they can get away with while still keeping their shows on TV. I think they’re more effective just being visible and out there.
Dan Savage won’t do. Bisexuals have numerous axes to grind with the guy, I think I recall transgender people do as well. And black people.
For the bears, I dunno – Andrew Sullivan?
The niche thing is a problem. I don’t know of anyone who immediately springs to mind as overcoming it. We need our powers to combine to create a gay superhero à la Captain Planet, probably a lesbian if we’re going to stick with someone with a green mullet…
Anthony in Nashville
@Chitown Kev:
I hear you, and I try to stay optimistic, but when I reflect on what gays and lesbians have in common the only thing I can think of is possibly the coming out experience. Everything else, from political views to cultural tastes/experiences, is an X factor.
Then add in the B and T and it gets even more complicated.
Ideally, that diversity should allow us to reach into every community, but people tend to associate with those like them. I also think most people prefer the comfort of the closet, or at least have a sliding scale of “outness.” Which allows for those self-appointed leaders to emerge.
John in SF
@Chris: With regard to work with United Farmworkers and folks in related “movements”, I wonder if you are aware of the great work EQCA has done in this regard. For example, Cesar Chavez daughter is a strong public and vocal advocate for our rights, haven been cultivated by EQCA. NAACP, MALDEV, CAA all helped the court case this week. I think there is alot more going on than most folks realize.
IMO, we could do a better job at showing up at THEIR rallies, supporting their causes, understanding their lives….
Also, what we could maybe be better at doing is supporting gay members in those organizations carry the burden of “dual memberships”: those individuals who are gay and black, gay farmworkers, gay and Latino, gay and Asian, etc…Many feel that they are asked to “choose sides”. We need to make sure that our community is not sending that message, so that they will not feel conflicted and hopefully to become fully empowered.
Chitown Kev
@Anthony in Nashville:
Now, I’m about 10 yrs. older than you and my favorite for this would be Signorile because he has shown the ability to reach accross a lot of aisles and he takes no shit yet he can be diplomatic at the same time and he listens.
@John in SF:
I’ve been asked to “choose sides” between “black” and “gay” and I can’t do that on principle. (Boykin, for example, would be fine, I just love Signorile for all the ACTUP stuff, though)
John in SF
It cracks me up that so many people are debating commentators and media stars as “leaders”. Sure they may be the most visible gays. Sure they have a role in the movement. But it is truly a joke to think that Ellen or Andrew Dan or Rachel or Jasmyn could ever be leaders of our movement. They are entertainers. Commentators, Pundits. Not leaders.
What about Kate Kendall? She leads what is arguably the most effective, undersupported, and hardest working national LGBT civil rights organization in the country. Nobody mentions her because a) she is a woman and b) she is not a media star. She IS a hero to millions of lesbians. But because she heads the National Center for Lesbian Rights, gay guys have never heard of her. Yet, she is fantastically inspirational. Incredibly strategic. Hilarious as any comedian. Humble as any true leader should be.
What about Evan Wolfson, who’s been working the marriage issue since law school and who literally wrote the book on why marriage matters. Smart. Passionate. Long-term oriented.
Besides them, what about Shannon Mintner, Matt Coles, Jenny Pizer, Mark Leno, Anthony Romero??
Any of them, but please, not Ellen deGeneres for pete’s sake.
Anthony in Nashville
@Chitown Kev:
I like Signorile as well.
As far as that “picking sides” drama, I gave up trying to have those arguments a couple of years ago. It’s a false choice in my opinion.
John in SF
@Chitown Kev: I like Boykin A LOT. I think he has a lot of what it could take to be a movement leader. Right now he seems focused on being a commentator/pundit rather than a leader. No question though he has the charisma, smarts, insights that it takes.
Amy
These comments are amazing and a conversation that our entire community needs to have. I believe that we do need many leaders under a strong coalition, and many of the grassroots orgs out there are trying to work together to create this.
What makes our community EXTREMELY unique is that we all think independently. This can cause some problems when unifying, but in the end, it’s the root of who we are and our greatest strength. If we all did what we were told, none of us would be out of the closet. We are facing an opposition that has faith as their leader, and they have dubbed that leader as being all powerful and one that views us as immoral. It is easy to unite a group under faith. It is easy to make a group act out of faith. Since we are not all united under one single religious faith, we must use what unites us to our benefit: our free will and our ability to think and act independently.
For too long we’ve sat back and just gave money as our activism for the year (or at least that’s what I did). Now it’s time we all channel our frustrations and anger toward positive actions. There are so many amazing grassroots orgs out there just dying for volunteers to help them bring things to the next level, and they’re all working together for the movement. One single leader can’t end up the “be all end all” of this movement because of how diverse we are as a community. This needs to be bottoms up organizing, not tops down. We need all the strong voices telling us what to do and how you want us to do it. So my thought is to find grassroots as the leader, not a person (though Rick Jacobs is freaking amazing if I’d have to vote). Take your independent thinking, find an org that fits with your ideals on how you think things should move, lend your powerful voice, and we’ll all come together to join the charge.
Flex
@John in SF: I love Shannon Minter! He is so ahead of the curve. He knows exactly what he will be saying, and knows who he’ll be saying it too. He has the ability to articulate himself precisely, and has the ability to see things from his opponents perspective too.
The Gay Numbers
There is no movement. There is only “I.”
Charles J. Mueller
Shannon Minter would have my vote too.
Greg Ever
I have read every single comment that has been posted here so far, and the most prominent issue that seems to be a problem with uniting everyone in the gay movement is the vast number of differences within out community, all the little niche sub-communities. The best way to combat this issue, I believe, is to look at our biggest and most popular enemy, the religious right. Their beliefs are based on religion, which interestingly enough also crosses racial, ethnic, class, and other boundaries. In addition, there are a number of different subsets of beliefs (denominations) within religion, just like we have. So let’s not make the differences within the gay population an issue that draws our attention away from the real idea: that gay people are okay and deserve the be treated fairly and equally.
Taking a further lesson from religion, I think it is important to make a distinction between our belief that gays are just as good as anyone else and the individual political campaigns that we are trying to win. Yes, these things matter, but I think what we’re really lacking is a larger vision of seeing gays as normal people (albeit not as common as heterosexuals). The great leaders of any revolution throughout history united the people and got supports on board, they did not back any specific issue or debate. That was done by the people once they were united together.
So I think what I’m trying to say is that we first need to get over our differences and come together behind an idea before we can get behind a political cause.
Chris
@John in SF:
John, I couldn’t agree more. And thank you for elaborating on my point (I was light on details). Why should we expect others to show up for our rights when we don’t show up for theirs. I was very impressed and touched by the diverse support No on 8 received. I only hope that as their issues emerge, we can rally, as an LGBT community, to support them. Gays will never be in the majority. We will always have to have support and cooperation from others to move ourselves forward. The sooner we learn these hard lessons, the sooner we will start to see real progress.
Josh
We need more of these people in front of the media: Mike Rogers, Mike Signorile, Pam Spaulding, Wayne Besen, Andrew Sullivan, Dan Savage, Hillary Rosen, Amy Balliett, Rick Jacobs, and Joe Solmonese.
And we need a charismatic, smart, telegenic/photo-genic grassroots leader that can give empowered and inspirational speeches and show up to a lot of public events.
Different organizations and netroots need to work and coordinate together too.
Exposure also helps. Its great that we have out people on TV and in the media like Rachel Maddow (smart and awesome) and Ellen. We need more!
More ordinary people need to come out in everyday life too.
I also think there needs to be more large peaceful protests and public events too.
There has to be community organizing and outreach as well.
There also needs to be more cultural messages too (think creative satirical viral videos like Prop 8 The Musical).
Josh
There also needs to be pro-gay organizations and think thanks.
We need our own versions of the AFA and FRC to counter them.
We also need to build up the Religious Left to take on the Religious Right.
The Gay Numbers
Is any of the things people are talking about here ever going to happen?
Landon Bryce
Dan Savage supported the war in Iraq and pushed Barack Obama as a much more pro-gay candidate than he ever claimed to be. THEN he bought into insanely blaming blacks for Prop 8. THEN he supported kid-fucking Mayor Sam Addams. I love Dan, but he needs to shut the fuck up about political matters because he usually gets them really, really, really, bass-ackwards scary destructive wrong.
Sean Penn is being a much more courageous and useful leader than any of the gays mentioned in these comments, all of whom are either consumed with anger or ushering the rest of us the back of the bus. I vote for him.
Does that mean I would now be qualified to edit a gay magazine if there were any still around?
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
Depends on how the Cali Supremes rule is my best guess. My fear is that if they overturn Prop 8, then we’ll still be out there but the apathy will continue.
Dan Savage is from Illinois, Landon, of course he was going to push for Obama…but he is not politically savvy at all. The Sam Adams thing too, I agree with his position and I know that Portand is right down the road from Seattle, but voice your support and leave it at that.
And that racist rant after Prop 8 passed, he has to mend fences for that.
GranDiva
To the best of my recall, the gay “community” has never really had any sort or sense of centralized leadership. Nor, really, has any other minority or aggregate/confederation of affected persons. Milk was great, but he had a clearly defined sphere of influence. MLK, great as he was, was more anointed by circumstance, not unlike Moses. Even in the early days of homophilia, there were organizations who stepped in to fill power vacuums, and we ended up with the leaders of those organizations as de facto spokespersons, but I don’t really think of them necessarily as community leaders. It’s not like we have our own country and choose absolute rulers. Different people/organizations step up, mostly because the rank and file don’t seem to be interested enough to do for themselves collectively (and yes, I know that that’s really awkwardly worded).
I’m still amused when people bring up Rosa Parks. The Montgomery lawsuit that ended bus segregation didn’t have her name on it. The original plaintiffs in Browder v. Gayle were Aurelia Browder, Claudette Colvin, Mary Louise Smith, and my great-grandmother, Susie McDonald. Not what you’d think of as leaders, really, just regular people who stood the hell up for themselves before Rosa Parks did the same.
What happens in the process of shoving oppression aside doesn’t really come through the action of one anointed leader in any case, it comes through little victories won without a lot of public attention or, apparently, much media coverage; certainly not a lot of stuff that gets taught in highly oversimplified history classes.
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: There is no one that I can think of who is both politically savvy and movement concious enough to do what needs to be done. There are some easy steps that could be done to change things around, but it would require someone who is both hardnosed about politics as well as a gifted leader activist. Each alone is a rare trait. Together, it’s a once in a generation thing. Someone who can both emotionally connected with the gay community (to make it more than “I”) and at the same time talk in a way that the straight community can’t ignore. Someone who knows how to build bridges because they aren’t as worried as most gays in being accepted. Someone willing to be matyr because they want something better for the next generation rather than just for themselves. I don’t know any gay person like that- do you?
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
Depends on how comfortable my own pick, Signorile, is in his day job. He’s been there and done that, though…
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: He doesn’t have the talent for the role. I am speaking objectively about whether someone appeals or not to a broad swath of people, but at the same time are totally dedicated to speaking of the subject in the way that connects with all those people. No one on the stage right now have that time. Signorile included. I am talking Martin Luther King talented. Again, what I am talking about is really rare. It requires charisma beyond the subground to which one belongs. Signorile has the same problem as Savage- they appeal to a narrow band of white gay men mostly urban. Not the entire gay population which is extremely diverse. I feel like a real leader would come from a lower income background and most likely not be from the major cities. I always say there is a reason why Brokeback Mountain was a cross over hit. Part of it was that it was not about gays living in gay ghettos repeating the same narratives they have been repeating since the 70s. To me, the real leadership will come from a place where gay is not about rituals, but as natural to them as breathing and yet they appeal, again, to a broad swath of people because in part their own biography is so compelling. This is in part the issue- understanding that the narrative is a factor.
Bill Perdue
The last thing we need is another crop of leaders. No one can speak for us because we don’t have one voice, one opinion or one one community. Although we have a lot in common politically and often act together, the communities of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexual and transgendered people are unique.
We’re still divided by bothersome questions, most of them unwelcome imports from the backward society we live in like transphobia, racism, misogyny and class differences. For too long rich GLBT folk have had it their way in our movement and some became rich with the wildly inflated salaries and perks they got as self-appointed leaders.
We desperately need internal democracy to reenergize and organize a movement burdened with far too many of those self appointed leaders because, except for focused groups like the NCLR and Lambda Legal, most don’t have a clue about how to fight for equality. The humiliating and utter failure of No on 8 is all the proof anyone needs of the bankruptcy of our current ‘leaders’.
We do need a national group of grassroots activists that decide on strategy and elect a leadership team to carry it out. I emphasize grass roots because organizations dominated by loyalty to the Democrats or Republicans are a dead end.
Those two parties have their own agendas, feeding the rich, prosecuting recourse wars and pandering to bigots and we are not going to get much out of them by begging. Organizing mass demonstrations nationally and regionally will get us results and have the added benefit of creating an ever larger layer of committed activists in our communities.
We need a nationwide GLBT left, independent of the two parties, that consciously rejects harmful divisions like racism, transphobia, misogyny and class bias and concentrates on a strategy of mass action with an elected leadership.
The Gay Numbers
this:
No one on the stage right now have that time.
should read like this
No one on the stage right now has that talent.
One other point– the other way in which I think that leadership will matter is that they will be unappologetic, but that despite this they are still embraced anyway.
The Gay Numbers
@Bill Perdue: I don’t see how what you describe prevents a natural leader from raising from the ranks?
The Gay Numbers
@The Gay Numbers: One final point- I said this elsewhere, but let me repeated here. The reason why Dustin Black’s speach at the Oscar’s resonated was it authencity. He too is not the right person for leadership, but he captured a moment that points out why gays have so many problems in American politics. The authenticy of the speak was about more than faux narratives about what gay is. He said something transcendent that most people would agree is true, but did so while also talking about being gay, and not running away from it. He did so by saying gays are blessed by God just like everyone else. To me, most other gay “leaders” have ceded this territory. This is only one example of how argue in ways in the past that were self defeating. he argued the point exactly right- that even for Christians- there is a reason to be good with gays. Not that gays are versus God,b t instead that we are versus hateful people. That moment is a transcending moment not because every needs to believe in God, but because it reframes our narrative. That we are neither for or against God, but for those people who are for God- here’s a reason to see us in way thats not normally discussed. That’s how you start to change things. Changing the way we talk about ourselves- place ourselves into the greater context of history, of life, of class, of religion, of everything. Not walled off and separate. We separate as much as we are separated. That moment ws about saying- we are one. That’s what a leader must do.
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: Okay- forgot- one other point about black’s speech- he made it about our civil rights-one movement united for all. Not just gay marriage, not DADT, not all these things that can be ran against, but for all of us, because it really is all the same thing.
Jhon Centurri
@Mike in MO: Yeah. Just what we need. A leader because he’s cute.
Bill Perdue
@The Gay Numbers: It doesn’t but the dynamic of democratically led movements creates lots of leaders. The difference between them and authoritarian groups dominated by the rich such as HRC is in the elections of leaders who act as a term.
Part of what I’m saying is that the leader prinzep just doesn’t work. It leads to defeats because, like Prop 8, there’s no feedback and no way to correct errors in tactics and strategy.
Also the discussion is confusing the different roles of leaders, who are planners and organizers, and spokespeople, two very different things.
Jeffrey
@The Gay Numbers: Why do you bring up Lance Black and then dismiss him so quickly? I have already written in other blogs that Lance might be the one to pick up Harvey Milk’s torch and run with it. He was first inspired by Milk as a teen. Then he immersed himself in the life and times of Milk and wrote a compelling screenplay. Then, on the night he wins an Oscar for that screenplay, he uses the podium as a pulpit to deliver a speech to millions of people all over the world that was what you so accurately described as “transcendent”, “authentic” and “absolutely right”. I couldn’t agree more. I think the blood of Harvey Milk runs (or could be coaxed to run) thru Lance Black’s veins. Wasn’t a crucial component of MLKs magnetism his amazing and compelling use of words? Well, Lance has that gift. Maybe with practice it could be as powerful as MLKs. And he is young and has the spirit and freshness of the new generation of glbt activists who don’t think the same way as the old guard. If we can convince him that his intersection with Harvey Milk was no accident and was perhaps his destiny, he might be persuaded to leave Hollywood for awhile and write galvanizing speeches for the cause. I nominate Lance Black.
Just my two cents.
Anthony in Nashville
@Landon Bryce:
I hope you’re kidding about Sean Penn. Loved Milk, but was he considered a strong ally before that movie was released?
He does have a higher profile than anyone mentioned so far, but do we really want to elevate someone to leadership based off of one movie?
@John in SF:
You raise a good point about our tendency to look at media stars for leadership as opposed to people who are doing work away from the spotlight. It is a problem that the black community has been dealing with also. I believe it speaks to the ways media growth has affected how we think of “leadership,” although there plenty of examples of people with a large media presence who have no substance.
The Gay Numbers
@Jeffrey: You answer your own question by talking about convincing him.
Chitown Kev
@Jeffrey:
not a bad idea
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
This is way too high of a standard to start out with. The potential to be a King, maybe I could buy, but what you are talking about is extremely, extremely, extremely, extremely rare.
The Gay Numbers
@Chitown Kev: Yes it is- thus why we won’t find one. We are discussing something that is rare- the talent to be an effective leader of a movement. My standard is not high. It’s what any such leader would have to be to be effective.
InExile
There is no leader and that is the problem! Our community needs a real leader now not next year. With each day the new administration fails to act, we loose more ground because right now at this very moment they have the political capital to act but how long will their political capital last? The fact is the new administration will not act unless we as a community force their hand to action. To do this we must be organized and make lots of noise and the best way for that to happen is with a leader. When is the march on Washington for equal rights? That would be a start!
RichardR
@Bill Perdue: Hey Bill, picking up on your emphasis on “grass roots,” just wondering what you think of NLGTF. Do you feel they have the same beholden-to-the-Democrats baggage as say, HRC does? It seems to me they do pretty valid and authentic ‘grass roots” work, developing diversified leadership as you urge.
A LGBT left? Is it a pipe dream?
tavdy79
Has anyone considered the possibility of having more than one spokesperson? After all, the Religulous Reich has often had several simultaneously – James Dobson, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell for example.
Of those mentioned so far, I’d be inclined to go for both Dustin Lance Black and Pam Spaulding. Like others, I was impressed with Black’s Oscars speech; he is also relatively young and very photogenic – both definite assets. Black is also increasingly recognisable outside the USA – his speech at the Oscars had influence beyond America, and he is someone who could speak for all LGBTs, not just American LGBTs. Also, he also doesn’t have the divisive history that could alienate otherwise good candidates like Savage from some sectors of the LGBT community and other minority groups. Spaulding too has a major advantage in this respect: she is by nature inclusive, and her blog – in its contents, regular “staff” and readers – reflects this. She is also Black, so understands what it is like to be part of a double minority – from the POV of a queer person with a disability, that is significant. Perhaps even more than DLB, she can speak for all sectors of the LGBT community and, being Black herself, she is better able to reach out to other minority groups.
Both of them, of course, would need a lot of persuasion before they’d take up the mantle (some might say the yoke) of Milk II.
The Gay Numbers
@tavdy79: The people you mention are not organizers or leaders. they are just famous or write about the subject. Those are not the same things as leaders.
Brian Miller
It would have to be someone who isn’t “a Democrat first.”
Too many so-called “gay leaders” confuse socialism and big-government issues with “gay issues.”
Marriage equality? Military service equality? Immigration and adoption equality? Gay issues.
Abortion? Socialized medicine? Government “stimulus” bills? Overseas wars? Not gay issues, never have been, never will be. Yet a great deal of the self-appointed “gay leaders” attempt to make them as such — undermining real gay issues in the process.
strumpetwindsock
@Brian Miller:
I see your point, but you know everyone is going to have their own set of issues they want on and off the list (for some people health care IS a gay issue, and I would say a good many lesbians are concerned about abortion access as a women’s issue).
There may be a social leader focused solely on gay rights, but that movement touches on a whole range of other things.
Certainly no one is going to take political power without having to deal with a whole set of larger social issues.
Brian Miller
@strumpetwindsock:
I see your point, but you know everyone is going to have their own set of issues they want on and off the list (for some people health care IS a gay issue, and I would say a good many lesbians are concerned about abortion access as a women’s issue).
And for me, ending the Iraq War and reducing taxes on gay families is important.
Doesn’t make them “gay issues,” and trying to say that “tax cuts on the middle class is a gay issue” is exploiting LGBT issues to accomplish a political agenda that is not related to LGBT concerns.
tavdy79
@The Gay Numbers: True they’re not leaders – but I do think they both have the potential to become leaders. Many people in earlier posts were bemoaning the lack of gay leaders who can represent and unify the broad diversity of the LGBT community, and dealing with/building a diverse community is something Pam Spaulding is very successful at IMO. The main reason Pam doesn’t do more than she does – and she’d dearly love to be able to – is that she can’t afford to: she runs PHB in her spare time and makes no money off it – all the donations go into subsidising hotel and travel costs for blogosphere- and LGBT rights-related conferences.
Mark M
Who would want to herd cats? We are not a very lead-able group sometimes!!! I mean, do we like each other?? The twinks bemoan the bears who make fun of the leather queens, who scorn the monogamous sweater crowd, who think the TS’s aren’t in our family at all…
Charles J. Mueller
@Mark M:
While you bemoan them.
Greg Ever
Some people are suggesting leaders, while some people are suggesting a spokesperson. What we need is someone who is both, and that is incredibly rare.
John in SF
It seems like what everyone wants is a replacement for Harvey Milk. Well, even Jesus left things to 12 Apostles. Sometimes you have to take the inpsiration of a Jesus or a Milk, or a King and go with it. Think about it…if a potential leader was reading this, he/she would realize that no one will be happy unless they are perfect, can live up to an impossible standard, then be crowned messiah. Who could ever have the humility required to be a true leader, then step into shoes laden with such over-the-top expectations? It seems to me that the answer is no one person. We collectively are the leaders we seek. Every single one of us.
Meanwhile, truly good, solid leaders get trash talked as soon as they make a single mistake, or appeal to one segment of the community more than to another, or actually take a vacation!! Just look at how we have excoriated our leaders in this very discussion. . One would think THEY are the OPPONENTS, instead of the religious right! Sure – find yourselves a messiah – and be sure not to forget to crucify him!
Anthony in Nashville
@The Gay Numbers:
Are you saying only someone with Martin Luther King’s unique skills can be an effective leader?
It seems to me that there are plenty of political leaders who are complete opposites of MLK.
Even Harvey Milk could not compare with King.
To reference the black community again, it seems many people ask “where’s the new MLK?” instead of recognizing that’s an unrealistic standard to shoot for.
strumpetwindsock
@Brian Miller: Yes, I see what you mean and understand. A lot of other movements – environmental, trade union, women, black – have leaders who stay focused on their central constituency, and don’t wind up using their purported “main issue” as a vehicle for something else.
But it’s impossible to get involved politically and not wind up dealing with other issues… some of them very mundane and not directly related to gay issues.
I guess that’s the big balancing act – how to be an effective day-to-day leader, respond to the needs of many constituents, and still keep your eye on your main goal.
Chitown Kev
This is a great talk guys, we NEED to talk about this. Regardless of what the California Supreme Court does.
Bill Perdue
@RichardR: NGLTF’s former leader, Matt Foreman was very critical of the Democrats betrayals on ENDA and hate crimes and I thought they were moving in a positive direction. However his successor Rea Carey welcomed the election of a bigot named Obama, which I find very offensive and wrong headed in someone who pretends to leadership of our movement.
Obama is one of our enemies, not a friend because of his christer based bigotry against same sex marriage. And even more so because he hypocritically changed his position because it seems he used to support us.
I think NGLTF folks do very good work in research, but that their emphasis on training and lobbying are adjuncts to what our primary strategy should be, which is organizing mass demonstrations and boycotts on a regular basis in localities, especially around violence and murder, regionally, and nationally, much like the antiwar demonstrations of the 60’s and ‘70’s.
People keep throwing out names of this or that celeb and I disagree with them all. We need an elected team of leaders who are elected to support a specific strategy, leaders of the caliber of Malcolm X or labor leaders like E.V. Debs who combined fearlessness, a clear idea of who we were fighting and a mass action approach.
Celia
No socio-political group as big and diverse as the gay rights movement can possibly rally around one single person. Even back in the sixties, the civil rights movement had Malcolm X for the people who felt King was too nice. There need to be several people to help us, each appealing to different sub-groups, but still working together and consulting with one another so we don’t wind up with tiresome separatism. A movement, rather than a single person.
Mark M
@Anthony in Nashville: Even MLK had problems which were starting to overwhelm his skill. The last public opinion poll (while alive) showed his popularity was at about the same as George Bush’s (when leaving office). Can’t take credit for that fact: heard it on Tavis’ show. Maybe we don’t need a leader as much as a movement. I don’t need a daddy to admire as much as I need to become more interested and involved in issues bigger than myself.
Me
Maybe a stumbling block to unity is evidenced in the fact that many keep saying “Gay rights movement”, etc… while waving a GLBTQIMZFR]< banner over their heads. I mean, when your whole platform is all over the place, how can that in any way be wieldy or effective? As any conscionable human should, we take up the causes of our brothers: we march for racial tolerance, we rally against oppression, and we petition others to do the same. But that is us helping those people in their singular cause. In becoming too aligned, we become indistinguishable – for better or worse. And we can hand-wring all we want about the altruism of it all, but the sad fact is our opposition doesn’t give a rat’s ass how things “should be” in some rose-colored utopia. They’ll use anything they can against us. My advice would be to pare down the platform to only the most pressing concerns that face us all, and in doin so, we might be able to focus our energies for once. As it stands, we are a team of horses, running all out for different directions.
Sebbe
Oh I thought it was Lance Bass?
LOL
Anthony in Nashville
@Mark M:
Hmmmm.. I knew MLK’s popularity waned in his final months but I didn’t know it was that low. I think it was all downwhill for him when (1) he spoke out against Vietnam and (2) discovered that the strategies used in the deep south were not effective in the north.
You are correct that our situation would be easier if there was an actual movement instead of a focus on individuals. In my opinion, when you have a movement, the leaders emerge.
The MLK example you gave showed that no matter how dynamic a single leader is, their popularity/effectiveness will eventually fade.
vernonvanderbilt
@Anthony in Nashville: MLK’s popularity problem toward the end of his life also had a lot to do with the fact that he was moving beyond issues of race and was starting to work on issues of class. Before he was murdered, he was working on organizing a Poor People’s March on Washington. Getting poor folks organized is probably the single biggest threat to the status quo, and that is why he was deemed fit for assassination. I’m sure you’ve noticed that no one ever talks about MLK and class issues in the same breath. There are reasons for that.
@Celia: You hit the nail on the head. That ties in with a similar point I made on another thread a while back, that mainstreamers and “militants” are not enemies, but complementary forces. Each side of the spectrum is able to accomplish things the others can’t.
@Bill Perdue: Excellent comparisons concerning Malcolm X and Debs. The movement has enough wannabe-Kings, but we’re seriously lacking firebrands and rabble-rousers at the moment. I think what we need is some sort of organization for the more forceful among us. I’m sure there’s one out there, but it apparently is not getting much/any press coverage. We need a group of people who are not afraid of getting their hands a little dirty and saying things that might be unpopular or “scary” to the mainstreamers, straight and queer.
@John in SF: Amen. Perfection is the most futile of pursuits. The GLBT community is so diverse that there can never be one single leader who can appeal to all of us. Indeed, that is why we need multiple leaders, of varying backgrounds and activist styles, who focus on their areas of specialty while also working in conjunction with one another. It seems like any time you get more than three of us together to talk about the movement, it degenerates into pointless bickering and nitpicking, getting us nowhere. We don’t need a leader; we need a council of leaders, all aiming for the same goal and having their own ideas of how to get there. A multi-pronged attack is more likely to make headway than picking a single battering ram and throwing all of our energy behind it.
kevin (not that one)
Who are the leaders of the LGBT movement?
You are.
Every single one of us must take on the role of leadership if we are going to make waves in this day and age. We all sat back for too long and depended on the tired folks in DC or our state capitals to speak for us. That just doesn’t work for us anymore.
We cannot afford, literally, to simply write checks or click on a mouse button to express our activism. We’ve got to open our living rooms and kitchens to people who live next to us and engage on the local level. If you don’t see anyone doing something, you must jump in and do it yourselves.
I know from personal experience that all it takes if for one person to make a difference.
At one point in my life, I did this and I made a difference. Sure, it can be scary to put yourself out there. But if I can make a difference, then so can you.
Do you have a cell phone? A computer? Are you up on all of the issues? Can you focus yourself and get organized? If you can hold your household together and balance your checkbook, you can be a leader in the movement.
And when you think about where to become active, think about like starting a business and putting out a product. Ask yourself, where is there a demand that’s not being met or fulfilled. Pinpoint what’s missing in your area and then fill that need. Become your own spokesperson. Cultivate your volunteer squad. Show those who join up with you that they have an interest in what you’ve created and what they’re helping to shape.
And last but not least, win something. Just like a business has to make a profit, your social change venture must set goals that are attainable and that often means you must start off small and work towards larger goals. For example, your first goal is to recruit like-minded folks. Second goal, organize that group and keep them engaged. Third goal, go after something that’s win-able, such as an endorsement from an elected official or getting a business to adopt a non-discrimination policy. But after that, don’t settle for small wins. Go after bigger fish.
People are attracted to winners. When you start showing success, your movement will grow. The more your base grows, the more success you’ll gain.
The Gay Numbers
@tavdy79: I should point out I love Pam’s site. She’s one of the best online right now in terms of her content consistently being very good. Of the two you mention, I think she’s someone who really has potential.
The Gay Numbers
@Anthony in Nashville: I am saying that to a movement leader that would really accomplish anything would require this, and that in the alternative, we need to realize that these sorts of people are rare,a nd focus as Bill Perdue has said on creating grassroots efforts. Such as person is just not going to be found easily. That’s my only point. Also, MLK is only one example. As others point out- there are others like Malcolm X. I tend to agree with them that there are many types , but I am only adding that such leadership types are exceptionally rare. It’s not about my expectations. It’s about what would produce results, and then correlating from past examples of what that means. I am also looking at what has not worked- based on who leads the movement now.
Brianna
@vernonvanderbilt:
“I think what we need is some sort of organization for the more forceful among us. I’m sure there’s one out there, but it apparently is not getting much/any press coverage.”
How about “Bash Back!” and Gay Shame?
I’d be interested in everyone’s take on these groups. Are they too radical? Are they setting us back(or would they be if they were larger)? Or are they just what we need?
Sebbe
@kevin (not that one) – Well said. Thank You for reminding us.
vernonvanderbilt
@Brianna: I had completely forgotten about those two groups. Personally, I’m not an anarchist, so Bash Back! isn’t a perfect fit for me. However, I think they have done a lot of good work for the movement, though they don’t seem to get much (sympathetic) coverage for it. Gay Shame appears a little less extremist, and they are probably closer to being marginally acceptable by mainstream standards.
Whether I agree with every single detail of their platforms or not, I believe that these are precisely the sorts of groups the movement needs more of. My whole point is that we need something to offset the overwhelming apathy and passivity of the mainstream GLBT movement.
We need people who aren’t afraid to raise a fuss, people who are willing to put their asses on the line in dangerous territory, people who are willing to hit the enemy wherever it will hurt the most. And when we can pull these people together, there needs to be an effort to get as much press coverage as possible.
The mainstreamers like to co-opt the imagery of the civil rights movement and MLK, but when’s the last time you saw a group of GLBT folks staging sit-ins, handcuffing themselves to places, and generally causing a disruption? When’s the last time we had police dogs and fire hoses turned on us? Any similarities between our activism and the activism we pretend to aspire to are superficial at best. The sad fact is that the vast majority of GLBT people aren’t even involved in the movement to begin with, other than a five-minute whine when news of anti-gay actions pops up. Selfishness is the problem, I think, selfishness and cowardice.
Chitown Kev
@vernonvanderbilt:
the 80’s. Of course, that was a matter of life or death, literally. Given the anti-gay bashings around the world that we’ve seen just in the past week, you know what, it still is a matter of life and death.
Brianna
@vernonvanderbilt:
That was a rhetorical question I realize, but I googled and found this, from last month:
“Valentine’s Day sit-in for same-sex couples”
http://media.www.loyolaphoenix.com/media/storage/paper673/news/2009/02/25/News/Valentines.Day.SitIn.For.SameSex.Couples-3647484.shtml
“When the police came, they tried to convince the seven people sitting-in to leave voluntarily. When they refused, the officers took them to the First District police station, where they were charged with trespassing, a Class C misdemeanor. It was not until 2:15 a.m. that the last of the seven was released.”
But as for mass sit-ins that aren’t marriage related…well…
vernonvanderbilt
@Chitown Kev: Absolutely. And every time a bigoted law or amendment is passed, it puts our lives in even more danger. It’s been shown repeatedly that hate crimes tend to spike in the aftermath of anti-GLBT initiatives, because it emboldens the ‘phobes. Complacency is the number one problem in the mainstream GLBT community at present.
@Brianna: Reading that article, the sit-in sounds pretty anti-climactic, not to mention they chose the wrong target. There’s little point in protesting an office that has no power to change policy. Also, it sounds as if they were a bit lax in getting the media involved. Always, ALWAYS, make sure the media are alerted as soon as possible when an action like this is being taken.
And here’s the thing: marriage is a big issue for our community, and it’s a right we should have, but there are other issues that our people face as well that are just as (arguably more) important than this. Marriage is only a hot topic because it is a relatively safe one. It’s about the desire for assimilation, not the desire for freedom. There need to be protests at schools that ban GSAs. There need to be protests at the courts every time a basher gets a lenient sentence. There should be 24/7 protesting going on at Westboro (maybe even more than that, if you catch my drift). The marriage battle is a fine one, and one that I am behind 100%, but we need to remember that it’s only one battlefield in a much larger war.
Honestly, the more I read on the Bash Back! site, the less concerned I am about their anarchist leanings. I think they’ve got the right idea about a lot of things. If people actually go check out their site, http://bashbacknews.wordpress.com/, they’ll find a great primer on how to use guerrilla theatre to our advantage. Say what you will, but the Bash Backers know how to protest.
Chitown Kev
@vernonvanderbilt:
on the action, the media was notified well in advance (I know because I participated in the action, though I wasn’t in the Marriage Bureau itself). The problem was the arrest was actually done late in the afternnon just before the 5:00 news so that only the protest was covered, not the arrests (which I reported on one of the other blogs within an hour of the arrests).
Chitown Kev
Vernon, as far as the power to change policy, Cook County Clerk David Orr could marry a same sex couple if he wanted to. I believe the fine is $1500 or $2000, something like that. The gay community has offered to pay that fine and then some for every same-sex couple that he marries. Both Orr and Mayor Daley say they believe in marriage equality but Daley doen’t have the guts to do what Gavin Newsome did.
vernonvanderbilt
@Chitown Kev: Well, then it sounds to me like the arrest timing was probably deliberately chosen in order to minimize publicity.
Also, as I don’t have knowledge of the specific laws in your area, I cannot comment directly on that aspect of the situation. My main question would be this: if the county clerk went ahead and married a same-sex couple, would that marriage be legally recognized by the state? If not, then that doesn’t equate with changing policy, only disregarding it.
Chitown Kev
well, no, but it would make the national news, trust me just as much, if not more, than Newsome. Besides, this may become a somewhat mooter point in a few weeks with the civil unions bill going through the Illinois General Assembly.
Chitown Kev
@vernonvanderbilt:
thanks for that bashbackers info, there is a chapter here in Chicago (but I feel like I’m a little too old for something like that)
Brianna
Bash Back! have some iffy stances. It might not be the best group for people against DADT. They believe DADT activists are “racist tools of empire” though they’re supporting the repeal of the policy.
http://bashbacknews.wordpress.com/2009/01/22/bash-back-communique-666/
They raise some good points, but this is a perfect example of how diverse the gay population and how our focus is directed in different places.
Charles J. Mueller
@Chitown Kev: Hi Kev,
At 72 going on 73, I’d have to agree with you about that as well.
Brianna
17 here. Think I might almost be the perfect age to join.
p.s. I’m having a look at their hate mail right now.
http://bashbacknews.wordpress.com/hate-mail/
Some of it isn’t hate mail, just from gays who peacefully disagree. Not cool.
vernonvanderbilt
@Chitown Kev: @Charles J. Mueller: You’re never too old to be an activist, even of the more fervent variety. If there were a chapter anywhere even remotely close to me, I’d probably check them out.
@Brianna: I think their rhetoric regarding DADT may be a bit extreme, but I have to say I have pretty much always agreed that it’s actually a good thing for our coimmunity. Of course, if you read further on their website, they have decided that they are in favour of ending it, as it will potentially give them access to bigger and better weapons technology.
As far as their hate mail section…it’s all about branding in the end, isn’t it? They’ve positioned themselves on the far left of the spectrum, so they kinda have to call out the more “centrist” members of society. It helps draw the crowd they want to attract to their cause, which would be people who are fed up and disgusted with the mainstream equality movement and its practices of self-defeating compromise, appeasement, and “let’s take baby steps.”
Brianna
@vernonvanderbilt:
Oh I know about that – that was the blog post I linked to. But they still think DADT activists are tools, as they say at the bottom of the post. Kinda contradictory. They’re not for marriage either.
I guess I get what you mean about the branding.
Greg Ever
Just a curious question:
Does anyone think it might be worth removing the T from LGBT in order to focus our efforts and better our chances of getting our rights quickly?
Let me first be clear by saying that I believe trans people deserve to have all the same rights as anyone else, but I also make the distinction between people grouped by what gender they love and people grouped by what gender they are. In a way, putting the T with the L, G, and B is sort of like grouping gay rights and women’s rights together. Sure, there is some overlap, but I don’t think it makes much sense overall.
Thoughts?
Charles J. Mueller
@vernonvanderbilt:
You are if you are deaf in one ear with 40% hearing left in the other, wear glasses, take medication daily for a hiatal hernia and acid reflex syndrome, have to sleep in a chair at night,and have to suck on an Albuterol inhaler as an Emphysema sufferer to be able to breathe freely for an hour or two or can’t be on my feet more than an hour or so before my legs and feet swell up so much that I can’t put my shoes back on.
I have been out since I turned 16 and a gay activist since Stonewall 1969. Regretfully, my days of bicycle-chaining myself to lamp posts, being mauled with a nightstick and physically abused by the NYC police, sitting in the Tombs overnight, doing sit-ins, sit-outs, handing out pamphlets, marching and protesting in the streets in bitter cold, snow and ice are behind me, much less taking militaristic action against the enemy, not that they don’t deserve it. And don’t think I wouldn’t like to if I were physically able to.
Oh, and let’s not forget the thousands of dollars I contributed and donated to gay causes out of a meager weekly pay envelope over the past half-century, when I needed to pay my apartment rent, Pay the electric bill, my mortgage payment or put a new tires on my car because I couldn’t pass state inspection, but felt that contributing to the cause was more important.
Then there were the memberships in HRC, ACLU, GAA, GAANG, etc., etc. etc. While more recently, I contributed financially to Equality for California and contributed to the ad against the Mormon Church in the Salt Lake City Times, I wished that I could have afforded to have done more in these trying economic times. As a person who posted your job woes on another Queerty thread, I am certain that you understand where I am coming from.
There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that I will continue to be a loud and vocal supporter of civil-rights for my brothers and sisters until my dying breath. That said however, my activism these days is limited to writing letters to my state Governor and my state and federal representatives, contributing financially whenever and wherever I can and just making a general pain in the ass of myself wherever I encounter apathy and practices of compromise, appeasement and “let’s take baby steps”.
And, you’ve already seen ample evidence of that from me on these threads. 😉
vernonvanderbilt
@Charles J. Mueller: Charles, you know you’re my funk soul brother. 🙂 Obviously, I encourage people to be active to the extent that their assorted circumstances will allow. We are fortunate that one thing we are all able to do is speak out. After your lifetime of service to the community, there’s no need to ask for anything more. So long as you continue to share your passion and wisdom, I’d say your debt to the movement was paid many, many years ago.
I’d love to get out there myself and get involved in direct actions and protests and things, but I live in Middle of Nowhere, North Central Ohio, and we don’t see a lot of action here, for better or worse. Honestly, it’s probably best if I stay away from hotspots anyway, as I’m prone to the occasional explosion of rage when circumstances are right (wrong?).
Having my own set of physical disadvantages, my voice is probably my most potent weapon anyway. I’m basically a loner by nature, and have yet to find any group that has not eventually alienated me in some way, especially GLBT groups.
So, as I stated above…if you can’t do anything else, you can still speak out. Every contribution is valuable in the end.
@Greg Ever: If it weren’t so late now I’d get in depth with my stance on your suggestion. Short answer? Hell no.
vernonvanderbilt
@Charles J. Mueller: And Charles, seriously, you should consider writing your memoirs. From what I’ve gotten to know about you during my time here, it seems to me you’ve led an amazing life thus far. I know you get a lot of shit around here for your history lessons, but I find your stories enthralling. We need to preserve the history of the movement as much as we are able, and since you’ve witnessed a lot of it firsthand, you’re a valuable resource. I wish I’d known you when I was writing my essay on the Stonewall riots in college. I won the Freshman Essay Contest with it, but I can’t help thinking it would have been even more special if I’d been able to speak with someone who was actually involved in the movement at that time.
Bill Perdue
@Brianna: These people aren’t grounded in reality.
They want communes after the crash. It’s called the Mad Max syndrome and it’s very popular with the end-timer cults too.
They want to make the crash come faster. That’s unnecessary, it’s already here. I wonder if they have any concept of what kind of response that statement would elicit from a roomful of people about to be fired.
They’re trying to as far to left as they can and as radically gay or GLBT as they can. Lenin had a name for it. Ultraleftism, he said, is an infantile disorder.
To create change groups need to be huge, resolute, with a mass action perspective and militant, as opposed to tiny, sectarian and abstaining.
Greg Ever
@vernonvanderbilt:
@Greg Ever: If it weren’t so late now I’d get in depth with my stance on your suggestion. Short answer? Hell no.
I would appreciate it if you did go in depth on this issue at some point when you are able to. Honestly, I am relatively new to the idea of caring about all the LGBT rights political stuff and I am still trying to figure out where I stand on some issues, like the relevance of the T. I do think transgendered people deserve equal rights, but I still don’t really understand how they fit in to the same category that gay people are in. So if you can help explain that, that would be great. I’m just seeking knowledge, not trying to argue about anything. Many thanks.
tavdy79
@Greg Ever: I have three thoughts for you:
Firstly, many of the issues that affect LGBs also affect trans and genderqueer people – religious bigotry foremost among them since it is at the root of most of the other problems. On the basis that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”, it makes sense for the two communities to work together. Shannon Minter’s involvement in trying to get Prop. 8 overturned is a good example of this.
Secondly, many trans people are also LGB. Kate, the first out transwoman I ever met, was also a lesbian; similarly, I’m genderqueer, however my genderqueer identity is limited to my libidos (yes, that’s a plural) while socially I identify primarily as a gay man.
Finally, the Stonewall riots weren’t started by gay men or lesbians – they were started by transvestites. The gay rights movement owes much of the progress of the last four decades to people who are trans rather than gay, so the trans community, which is far smaller and more vulnerable than the LGB community, is owed a debt of gratitude by gays, and with it their support. Yet despite this they are often marginalised and alienated by gay men in particular – your earlier comment is IMO a good example of exactly the wrong kind of attitude.
Anthony in Nashville
This is possibly the best thread I’ve read on Queerty!
Hopefully there will be more substance-driven topics in the future.
I appreciate everyone’s comments.
With there being such a great deal of dissatisfaction with the established gay groups, this is an excellent opportunity for us to create the kinds of institutions that we want.
Charles J. Mueller
Good news on USA Today.
Religion is going bye-bye.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm
RichardR
@Charles J. Mueller: Indeed, and if one reviews some of the data, we see pretty clearly where our “enemies” are. In general, I’m encouraged that as religion declines, freedom and equality increase. The trends are absolutely in our favor.
This thread is just thrilling, so many smart people, many young.
Charles, I am sorry to learn of your poor health. Your commitment over the years is exemplary.
tavdy79
@RichardR: “I’m encouraged that as religion declines, freedom and equality increase.”
That depends on the faith, surely? After all, if the US was dominated by Wiccans and Quakers, gay marriage would have been legalised decades ago.
Brianna
@Anthony in Nashville:
I agree. I look forward to new posts on this thread and I hope they continue to trickle in. I don’t remember Harvey Milk, or Larry Kramer, or Stonewall – I barely remember when my own state legalized marriage. So it’s interesting to see the viewpoints of those that came before me, and everyone’s thoughts on leadership in the movement today.
kevin (not that one)
@Brianna: I think we definitely need a radical wing of our movement to complement the legislative/”suit and ties” part, but I don’t think very confrontational tactics on the marriage equality issue would go over well in many forums. Like, I totally don’t think it’s wise to confront an anti-gay church or church-goers and you do have to ask yourself how the media will spin it – as they did with the styrofoam cross lady in Palm Springs. But having a die-in in front of the annual meeting of US Catholic Bishops that highlights the rising rate of gay bashings and LGBT youth suicide due to Vatican doctrine? Yeah. I could see that being valid, so long as the message was focused. You have to be media-savvy.
At one point I was very much a part of the radical queer youth subculture and it certainly was a lot of fun, but accomplished almost nothing.
When I am inspired by queer youth activists these days, I look at what the GSA and Soulforce are doing. Many of them are rocking the foundations of heterosexism, both in the schools and in the churches. That’s far more radical than anything I ever saw Gay Shame do. Gay Shame had fabulous parties, but ended up being a mockery of what it was to be a queer radical. They would actually be opposed to marriage and not even think this was an issue worthy of fighting for. When I go to marriage equality rallies now, I never see any of those old “radicals” – even when we need some fierce queers to take on the anti-gay nazis who show up.
About me: I was part of the original group in California who went up to the state capitol to lobby legislators for the first Queer Youth Lobby Day, I was active in clinic defense against Operation Rescue (there were a lot of LGBTs active in our group), I assisted in the organizing of QueerRuption in 2000, I worked on gay/transgender/HIV prison issues, and on the LGBT response to the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. And yes, at one point I identified as an anarchist (although not anymore).
I know when you’re young you’re looking for action because you have tons of energy. As we say, direct action gets the goods. But I when I was young I also saw a lot of posturing and nothing gained, and still do – often by self-identified anarchists. That’s why I think protests and actions must have a lot of thought put into them and with something tangible to gain, not protest for protests sake. Those actions absolutely have to be dramatic, but they have to be tailor-made to each scenario.
If I was a young queer activist, I would be taking advantage of all of the technology that you all have that we didn’t. Another thing that I really see lacking is the use of good old fashioned visual “propaganda”. Political posters, stickers and artwork wheatpasted or painted up is still a great way of spreading a message – even in the digital age. Music and art is how WE fight the culture war, and I think we do an excellent job at it when we’re inspired. You probably don’t remember ACTUP, Queer Nation, and the Lesbian Avengers, but their original visuals and protest style continued to inspire activists long after the originators ceased activism.
But in the end, nothing beats putting in the hours of organizing communities to respond politically. This can be done through the courts, through the ballot, or by simply disobeying the rules. And while I wrote earlier that confrontation isn’t always the best route of social change, often it is the first way to get people to notice to you. When Queer Nation had kiss-ins in suburban malls, that was a non-violent direct action to confront – even shock – people into acknowledging that LGBT people have a right to open displays of public affection, and not just in our gay ghettos or behind closed doors.
Like I said earlier though, don’t wait for someone else to take the lead on an issue you see as important. That person may never come along, because that person was you the whole time.
Brianna
@kevin (not that one):
I think that’s the perfect ending to this thread(which is starting to slow down)
Thanks Kevin
“Like I said earlier though, don’t wait for someone else to take the lead on an issue you see as important. That person may never come along, because that person was you the whole time.”
That will stick with me.
Telly_Smitts
@Mark M:
This is sooo true! I’m glad to see that more of us are recognizing this huge FLAW in our communities. I have always asked myself why this is and furthermore, when and why these divisions happened to begin with?
I’m sure we all have straight friends who say “OK I understand a person being gay, but why the effeminate men and the masculine women”? Well, being a feminine woman I couldn’t answer that question. I definitely notice the separation though. Just how many programs are targeted @ the LBGT community as a whole? I do, however, know of many which are more “category specific” ie; G,L,B,TS,TG and even victims of gender/identity crisis! It’s as if we are put off even by one another!
We need to improve dialogues within the whole LGBT community first. We still need to learn more about who we ALL are before we present any message to the masses. Right now we have got to be kidding! Gays need to speak out for Lesbians, who need to speak out for Transgenders and so on and recycle. In other words we cant just be about cliques!
We need to show our country that WE are tolerant even of intolerance. We must show that we are compassionate, intelligent, productive, law abiding citizens who believe in our country’s progress/prosperity. Notice I say we must SHOW, not TELL! We also need to come to a concensus on what we want to fight for more.. Our right as citizens or our rights as GLBT”‘s.
I say this because if our rights as citizens are upheld, then the latter should follow. Right?
jwbcubed
I vote for Harvey Milk. Oh yeah, he’s dead. So is the gay rights movement. I don’t have any more rights that when we started. I still can get fired because I’m gay, can’t marry the one I love, and God forbid I do anything unstereotypical, it could cost me my membership card.
Alec
@jwbcubed: Of course, you can’t be imprisoned for having sex with a dude. Which I think is pretty important. Re: employment discrimination, in the bulk of the US it is illegal to fire you because you are gay, whether it be the result of state law or local ordinances. Additionally, relationship recognition exists in HI, CA, OR, WA, DC, NY, NJ, VT, ME, MA, NH. And there are other avenues available in cities as well. A majority of the fortune 500 companies offer domestic partnership benefits.
It isn’t perfect, but compared to even 2000 it is generally better. Just a thought.
Brianna
@Alec:
Out of all the states to forget, you forget to list the one state out of only two where marriage is legal – Connecticut(CT)
Alec
@Brianna: They’re in flux all the time, I was operating from memory. But yes, fair is fair, CT also.
One interesting question is what has become of the domestic partnership laws and civil union compromises as a result of the SSM litigation? Insofar as sexual orientation is subject to strict scrutiny, those institutions should also be open to heterosexual couples now.
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