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Gay Teen Eviscerates Every Religious Argument Against Homosexuality

Screen Shot 2014-09-02 at 2.04.13 PMLast week we reported on a truly horrific argument caught on video between a gay teen and his parents which resulted in him being kicked out of the house and essentially disowned. It’s painful to listen to.

But it all can essentially be summed up by this exchange between Daniel and his mother:

Mom: “You go with all the scientific stuff you want to, I’m going with the word of God.”

Daniel: “Well, scientific proof trumps the word of God.”

Mom: “No it doesn’t in my opinion.”

It’s an all-too-familiar communication dead end — essentially, “I can’t think for myself so I defer to what I’ve been told.”

But how much does Daniel’s mom really know about the almighty word of God? The hate she’s inherited may have deep roots, but to call it celestial is just plain shortsightedness.

Here’s another gay teen, TJ Montoya, who breaks down what the Bible actually says about homosexuality, since there seems to be a bit of confusion. We’ll forgive the awkward delivery and not knowing what “effeminate” means:

By:           Dan Tracer
On:           Sep 2, 2014
Tagged: , , ,
  • 40 Comments
    • Ogre Magi
      Ogre Magi

      Why would any LGBT person want to associate with a religion that has spent the last 2000 years persecuting their own kind

      Sep 2, 2014 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 1EqualityUSA
      1EqualityUSA

      I posted this comment in 2012 in regard to children who were being taught anti-gay lyrics to be sung in church–Keep in mind that you had years to come out to yourself and become comfortable with your true self. Give your mom the same courtesy, as it is a grieving process she needs to work through. Time is needed.

      “I was agnostic and went into reading the Bible, so that I could see for myself what exactly it was saying about gays. It changed me, though I have yet to join a church in the twenty seven years I’ve been studying. Churches are disappointing. The words are so complex and beautiful that it would take me 800 years to fully grasp its complexity. I view it as a three-dimensional structure, like a basket missing much of its weave. Parts have been altered, whole books omitted, worldly tinkering through the ages has changed it, but the structure is still there. The skeleton is still recognizable. History repeats itself and humans never change. The very things that vexed people in ancient times vex us today. Observing life can provide the meat for the skeletal remains of ancient words that have succumbed to human tampering. Some of the most profound verses have transformed my heart and mind. The greatest gift given to me from Scripture is a vantage point outside of myself, a bird’s eye view of the world. When Shakespeare wrote, “All the world’s a stage, And all the men and women merely players” a line such as this cannot be written without seeing the world from a distant vantage point. When Isaiah described the earth as an orb in the palm of God’s hand, this train of thought cannot come into being, without seeing from a vantage point apart from the flesh, especially when it was believed that the earth was flat. So, for all of the chaff that I sift through, the nuggets of wisdom far outweigh the mythology and it is these nuggets that have saved me time and much vain effort. It’s like having a really wise friend pass on bits of advice that prevents stumbling. Faith is a whole different animal, something which requires humbleness and it needs to be sought after. It brings the words alive, operational. It offers refuge, not persecution. I’m blown away by the beauty of the Bible. I looked into it to disprove the churches stance and it helped me understand that the church has destroyed Christ’s message. Mere men cannot take away from me what has been given to me by Christ, no matter how powerful, no matter how much they engender disharmony towards the LGBT community.”
      May 31, 2012 at 2:19 pm

      (Good luck to you. I wish you well.)

      Sep 2, 2014 at 5:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Merv
      Merv

      @Ogre Magi: Stockholm Syndrome.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 5:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • NiceNCool1
      NiceNCool1

      What religious people think of homosexuality is irrelevant. LGBT people exist. We aren’t going to disappear. Everyone else either learns to live with that fact or they don’t, but they don’t get to deny us our rights without us fighting back. The age of the closet has only very recently become OVER. I only wish that all LGBT people would recognize that and kick those doors off and be themselves. We have strength in numbers. Let your light shine!

      Sep 2, 2014 at 6:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Milk
      Milk

      Dismiss religions, the world will be a better place.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 6:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Quincy
      Quincy

      Does anyone have the youtube link to this? I couldn’t hear the audio very well. Or maybe a transcript? Thanks.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 6:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alan down in Florida
      Alan down in Florida

      An impressive young man. I’d like to meet him in another 10-15 years.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 6:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billy Budd
      Billy Budd

      Religion is poison. The bible clearly and undisputedly call us an “ABOMINATION”.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 6:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Throbert McGee
      Throbert McGee

      We’ll forgive the awkward delivery and not knowing what “effeminate” means

      In the kid’s defense, it’s far from clear that “effeminate” is the best translation of the original Greek word malakoi used by Paul — in other words, lots of Biblical scholars don’t know what “effeminate” is actually supposed to mean in the context of that verse.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 7:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billy Budd
      Billy Budd

      Bertrand Russell, Nobel prize winner, “Why I’m not a christian”, 1927:

      “It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one may say, is to give an air of respectability to these passions, provided they run in certain channels. It is because these passions make, on the whole, for human misery that religion is a force for evil, since it permits men to indulge these passions without restraint, where but for its sanction they might, at least to a certain degree, control them.”

      “Sex cannot dispense with an ethic, any more than business or sport or scientific research or any other branch of human activity. But it can dispense with an ethic based solely upon ancient prohibitions propounded by uneducated people in a society wholly unlike our own. In sex as in economics and politics, our ethic is still dominated by fears which modern discoveries have made irrational…There has to be consistency in life; there has to be continuous effort directed to ends that are not immediately beneficial and not at every moment attractive; there has to be consideration for others; and there should be certain standards of rectitude”.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 7:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Throbert McGee
      Throbert McGee

      The bible clearly and undisputedly call us an “ABOMINATION”.

      The Hebrew word to’evah is applied in Leviticus to the very specific act of ridin’ another male’s Hershey Highway — not to same-sex physical intimacy in general, let alone to the status of being a person with homosexual orientation.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 7:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Throbert McGee
      Throbert McGee

      Admittedly, of course, lots of Christians interpret the Leviticus passages as prohibiting same-gender sex in general (or at least male/male sex in general), rather than referring narrowly to anal penetration.

      And Christians generally assume that the ban applies to everyone in the entire world, whereas it’s clear enough that the original passage was discussing sexual practices that are off-limits to Jews, regardless of what their non-Jewish neighbors considered to be acceptable. (Just as non-Jews are perfectly free to eat pork and shrimp and camel’s milk, etc.)

      So Christians of any particular church denomination — Baptist or Catholic or Pentecostal or whatever — are perfectly entitled to say “homosexual activity is off-limits for OUR members on pain of excommunication” but they’re on very shaky ground in claiming that “all Christians everywhere must interpret Leviticus 18:22 in the same way that WE do.”

      Sep 2, 2014 at 7:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • OzJosh
      OzJosh

      There’s always a depressing ring of deja vu to these stories. This kid can argue the (deliberately) obscure details of an ancient manuscript until he’s blue in the face, but he will never change the minds of its more extreme acolytes because it’s the righteous superiority that motivates them, not their absurdly literal interpretation of a poetic and non-literal text. The only way he’ll ever be free is to go a step further and understand that the religion he’s struggling to desperately to stay connected to is inherently corrupt, and predicated on subjugation and control through fear and shame. Read The Bible and find wisdom in it if you must, but you’ll only truly be able to access that wisdom once you accept it is not the word of god, and your destiny is in your own hands.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 7:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billy Budd
      Billy Budd

      @Throbert McGee: You mean anal sex? Most of us do it anyway. The 1994 Laumann study suggests that 80% of gay men practice anal sex.The National Institutes of Health (NIH), with their report published in the BMJ in 1999, stated that two thirds of gay men have anal sex. Other sources suggest that roughly 75% of gay men have had anal sex at one time or another in their lives. WebMD reports that “an estimated 90% of men who have sex with men” practice receptive anal intercourse.

      Laumann, E., Gagnon, J.H., Michael, R.T., and Michaels, S. The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States. 1994. Chicago: University of Chicago Press (Also reported in the companion volume, Michael et al., Sex in America: A Definitive Survey, 1994).

      Bell, Robin (February 1999). “ABC of sexual health: Homosexual men and women”
      . BMJ (National Institutes of Health/BMJ) 318 (7181): 452–5

      Steven Gregory Underwood (2003). Gay Men and Anal Eroticism: Tops, Bottoms, and Versatiles. Harrington Park Press. pp. 225 pages.

      “Anal Sex Safety and Health Concerns”. WebMD. Retrieved August 19, 2013.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 7:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billy Budd
      Billy Budd

      @OzJosh:
      “the religion he’s struggling to desperately to stay connected to is inherently corrupt, and predicated on subjugation and control through fear and shame. Read The Bible and find wisdom in it if you must, but you’ll only truly be able to access that wisdom once you accept it is not the word of god, and your destiny is in your own hands.”
      .
      .
      .
      YES.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 7:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Derek Williams
      Derek Williams

      @Throbert McGee: How many Jews do you personally know who obey the Old Testament, which you allege is for them alone? And what of the fact the Jesus Christ said every word of the Old Testament must be obeyed until the end of time itself?

      Sep 2, 2014 at 8:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 1EqualityUSA
      1EqualityUSA

      Peter J. Gomes Professor of Christian Morals, Harvard University;Minister, American Baptist Church

      Opposition to gays’ civil rights has become one of the most visible symbols of American civic conflict this year (1992), and religion has become the weapon of choice. The army of the discontented, eager for clear villains and simple solutions and ready for a crusade in which political self-interest and social anxiety can be cloaked in morality, has found hatred of homosexuality to be the last respectable prejudice of the century. Ballot initiatives in Oregon and Maine would deny homosexuals the protection of civil rights laws. The Pentagon has steadfastly refused to allow gays into the armed forces. Vice President Dan Quayle is crusading for “traditional family values.” And Pat Buchanan, who is scheduled to speak at the Republican National Convention this evening, regards homosexuality as a litmus test of moral purity. They accuse others of perverting end distorting texts contrary to their “clear” meaning. They do not, however, necessarily see quite as clear a meaning to biblical passages on economic conduct, the burdens of wealth and the sin of greed. Nine biblical citations are customarily invoked as relating to homosexuality. Four (Deuteronomy 23:17, 1 Kings 14:24, I Kings 22:46 and II Kings 23:7) simply forbid prostitution by men and women. Two others (Leviticus 18:19-23 and Leviticus 20:10-16) are part of what biblical scholars call the Holiness Code. The code explicitly bans homosexual acts. But it also prohibits eating raw meat, planting two different kinds of seed in the same field and wearing garments with two different kinds of yarn. Tattoos, adultery and sexual intercourse during a woman’s menstrual period are similarly outlawed. They accuse others of perverting end distorting texts contrary to their “clear” meaning. They do not, however, necessarily see quite as clear a meaning to biblical passages on economic conduct, the burdens of wealth and the sin of greed. Nine biblical citations are customarily invoked as relating to homosexuality. Four (Deuteronomy 23:17, 1 Kings 14:24, I Kings 22:46 and II Kings 23:7) simply forbid prostitution by men and women. Two others (Leviticus 18:19-23 and Leviticus 20:10-16) are part of what biblical scholars call the Holiness Code. The code explicitly bans homosexual acts. But it also prohibits eating raw meat, planting two different kinds of seed in the same field and wearing garments with two different kinds of yarn. Tattoos, adultery and sexual intercourse during a woman’s menstrual period are similarly outlawed. There is no mention of homosexuality in the four Gospels of the New Testament. The moral teachings of Jesus are not concerned with the subject. Three references from St. Paul are frequently cited (Romans 1:26-2:1, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and I Timothy 1:10). But St. Paul was concerned with homosexuality only because in Greco-Roman culture it represented a secular sensuality that was contrary to his Jewish- Christian spiritual idealism. He was against lust and sensuality in anyone, including heterosexuals. To say that homosexuality is bad because homosexuals are tempted to do morally doubtful things is to say that heterosexuality is bad because heterosexuals are likewise tempted. For St. Paul, anyone who puts his or her interest ahead of God’s is condemned, a verdict that falls equally upon everyone.

      And lest we forget Sodom and Gomorrah, recall that the story is not about sexual perversion and homosexual practice. It is about inhospitality, according to Luke 10:10-13, and failure to care for the poor, according to Ezekiel 16:19·50: “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.” To suggest that Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexual sex is an analysts of about as much worth as suggesting that the story of Jonah and the whale is a treatise on fishing. Part of the problem is a question of interpretation. Fundamentalists and literalists, the storm troopers of the religious right, are terrified that Scripture, wrongly interpreted, may separate them from their values. That fear stems from their own recognition that their “values” are not derived from Scripture, as they publicly claim. Indeed, it is through the lens of their own prejudices and personal values that they “read” Scripture and cloak their own views in its authority. We all interpret Scripture: Make no mistake. And no one truly is a literalist, despite the pious temptation. The questions are, By what principle of interpretation do we proceed, and by what means do we reconcile “what it meant then” to what it means now?” These matters are far too important to be left to scholars and seminarians alone. Our ability to judge ourselves and others rests on our ability to interpret scripture intelligently. The right use of the Bible, an exercise as old as the church itself, means that we confront our prejudices rather than merely confirm them. For Christians, the principle by which Scripture is read is nothing less than an appreciation of the work and will of God as revealed in that of Jesus. To recover a liberating and inclusive Christ is to be freed from the semantic bondage that makes us curators of a dead culture rather than creatures of a new creation.

      Fortunately, those who speak for the religious right do not speak for all American Christians, and the Bible is not theirs alone to interpret. The same Bible that the advocates of slavery used to protect their wicked self-interests is the Bible that inspired slaves to revolt and their liberators to action. The same Bible that the predecessors of Mr. Falwell and Mr. Robertson used to keep white churches white is the source of the inspiration of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and the social reformation of the 1960’s. The same Bible that anti-feminists use to keep women silent in the churches is the Bible that preaches liberation to captives and says that in Christ there is neither male nor female, slave nor free. And the same Bible that on the basis of an archaic social code of ancient Israel and a tortured reading of Paul is used to condemn all homosexuals and homosexual behavior includes metaphors of redemption, renewal, inclusion and love – principles that invite homosexuals to accept their freedom and responsibility in Christ and demands that their fellow Christians accept them as well. The political piety of the fundamentalist religious right must not be exercised at the expense of our precious freedoms. And in this summer of our discontent, one of the most precious freedoms for which we must all fight is freedom from this last prejudice.

      Peter J. Gomes Professor of Christian Morals, Harvard University;Minister, American Baptist Church

      Sep 2, 2014 at 9:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jmmartin
      jmmartin

      @1EqualityUSA: Beautiful, Prof. Gomes! Many thanks.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 9:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Xzamilio
      Xzamilio

      @Throbert McGee: In other words, Christians of different denominations interpret the same scriptures differently and often spin the bible to make it say what they want. This is shocking… except that it’s not.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 9:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jamesnimmo
      jamesnimmo

      @Alan down in Florida:

      Is he living on the street? I can’t stand to read these kinds of stories. A good X-TIAN family KICKS their own child out of the house!!!!

      TELL ME AGAIN ABOUT THE VALUES OF RELIGION—AANNYY RREELLGGIIOONN!!!

      Sep 2, 2014 at 9:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DickieJohnson
      DickieJohnson

      @1EqualityUSA: Many, many, thanks, Prof. Gomes, for this eloquent explanation! It will be passed on to several friends who don’t understand this subject.

      @1EqualityUSA: I’m in rather full agreement with your statements. I’ve kept all the positive teachings of Yeshua bar Yusef, and tossed away the fear, negativity, and punishments of the mythologies. Unbelievers may say whatever they want, but they won’t change my beliefs. Thank you.

      @Xzamilio: Yes, there’s light-years difference between beliefs of liberal Episcopalians and the Alabama snake-handlers!

      Sep 2, 2014 at 10:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 1EqualityUSA
      1EqualityUSA

      DickieJohnson,

      I believe that we are judged by the amount of Light we sin against. The Reader of Hearts takes all into account, including one’s childhood, biological influences, and motive. As for those who have no faith, do we judge those who have zero propensity toward math, calculus, geometry, algebra? The part of the brain that houses spiritual understanding may not be as developed in those with no grasp of spiritual realms. Some can recite Shakespeare flawlessly, others can dance, others paint, others have spiritual “gifts.” Eyes to see, ears to hear…It all comes down to grey matter.

      We humans are so hard on each other. One of my favorite sentences from the essay by Peter J. Gomes is, “That fear stems from their own recognition that their “values” are not derived from Scripture, as they publicly claim. Indeed, it is through the lens of their own prejudices and personal values that they “read” Scripture and cloak their own views in its authority.”

      Sep 2, 2014 at 11:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Merv
      Merv

      @1EqualityUSA: The only understanding that has empirically proven reliable is that based on evidence. Different people from different cultures can do the same experiment in physics and get either the same or different results, confirming or disproving current understanding. There is nothing comparable for “spiritual understanding.” Everybody gets a different answer every time they ask a question, implying that there’s no there there.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 11:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SteveDenver
      SteveDenver

      Religion was great when people didn’t know where the Sun hid at night, and the love or punishment from GOD was a meritocracy. We now know that liars and adulterers grow astronomically rich in the name of GOD, and those who are charitable and kind in the name of GOD live and die in poverty.

      The Nativity Story is fake: there is no official record of such a decree or casual record of a huge migration of individuals going back to their father’s city of birth. There also isn’t a record of the census itself. Since this was brought up, religious “scholars” have attempted to link a similar decree to the Mary & Joseph baby-in-a-manger myth, but all the details are wrong, including the year and issuer.

      Christianity doesn’t need to be answered, it needs to be ignored — or studied and exposed.

      Sep 2, 2014 at 11:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 1EqualityUSA
      1EqualityUSA

      Merv,
      “Some of the greatest minds in history have endeavored mightily, as did Saint Thomas Aquinas, to prove the existence of a deity; and some equally great minds have endeavored just as mightily to prove that a deity cannot exist. They have utterly failed to convince the other side.”
      How Math Explains the World—James D. Stein

      One could no more deny Thomas Aquinas’ experience then they could deny Amadeus Mozart’s or Albert Einstein’s or William Blake’s. It’s different areas of the brain, with gifts of every stripe bestowed upon it. Just because you don’t have that understanding, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Math has always been a total hag for me, yet their were these guys in my class that soaked it up, understood it, talked about it with each other on break, and got straight “A”s in class. I can paint, they can’t. Our brain is a computer with an electrical system in it. Who’s to say spirituality can’t be a reality. In my chosen profession, I’ve seen many die, more than I care to remember. I’ve left my body myself. What I like about Christ is that the element of spirit is described in such great detail. Adjectives are used to describe it. Great lengths to explain spirit are discussed. If your grey matter cannot allow you to see what I have seen, that is not proof that it doesn’t exist. As for Steve Denver referencing the Sun, the spirit has little to do with molecules and atoms. It’s not physical. It’s not matter. The bodies are merely vessels, housing energy within for a short span of time. Once that energy is gone, we fall to dust.

      Sep 3, 2014 at 12:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Merv
      Merv

      @1EqualityUSA: I’m not denying that people have what they describe as spiritual experiences. I just think that there’s no good evidence that the explanations they provide for those experiences are valid. People such as Sam Harris, who is an advocate of spirituality, has attempted to address it within a scientific framework without all the woo. Coincidentally, he has a book coming out in a week or so. I don’t want to sound like I’m promoting it, because I’m not. I probably won’t be buying it, because it’s not my cup of tea.

      Sep 3, 2014 at 12:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • doug105
      doug105

      @Quincy: When you see the youtube video on another site, just click the icon at the bottom right to go to the home page.

      Sep 3, 2014 at 1:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billy Budd
      Billy Budd

      @1EqualityUSA: The burden of proof relies on whomever affirms that something exists. I don’t have to PROVE that there is no china teacup on the orbit of Uranus. YOU must prove that it is there, in case you believe in it.

      Sep 3, 2014 at 2:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billysees
      Billysees

      TJ Montoya is doing something that is not easy but necessary for a mature Christian to do — he’s working out his own salvation or understanding ‘and’ he thinks it important enough to make a video about it. Good for him.

      And he sounds like he’s doing a reasonably good job too.

      Hope he sticks to the NT more than any other.

      As time moves on, he’ll learn and know more and more.

      This video will help others to be a better and a happier person.

      Sep 3, 2014 at 10:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AtticusBennett
      AtticusBennett

      Here’s the deal though – he’s not the first person to eviscerate the bullsh*t “anti-gay” stances people think they’re gleaning from Scripture. and he won’t be the last. and others have done a better job, even though he’s still rather good at this.

      the problem? bigots don’t care. the bible is not the REASON for their bigotry – it’s their EXCUSE. a reason and an excuse are two very very different things. an excuse is what a feeble-minded coward gives when they simply don’t want to accept reality and play on a field of intellectual rationale. they go to “opinions” and “well this is just what i believe”

      the bible is not why anyone is antigay. the bible is what people fall back on when they don’t want to give up their anti-gay prejudices, which they learn from society and they hold on to when they’re a terribly mediocre human being of little worth.

      Sep 3, 2014 at 11:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billysees
      Billysees

      @AtticusBennett:

      “the bible is not why anyone is antigay. the bible is what people fall back on when they don’t want to give up their anti-gay prejudices, which they learn from society…”

      Good comment.

      Sep 4, 2014 at 1:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BRENT
      BRENT

      The boy means well and his heart is in the right place but his argument is weakened by a complete lack of scholarship that makes his examples meaningless.

      Before he can set his sights higher and attempt to counter those who will oppose him, he needs to define his terms as Socrates instructed, and to become less of a stranger to Logic and analytical thought.

      This is a debate that seems to have been running for ever. It will not be won (if it can be won at all) by advocacy such as this, however noble the motive.

      Sep 6, 2014 at 9:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billysees
      Billysees

      @BRENT:

      “The boy means well and his heart is in the right place…”

      I think the rank and file are less interested in scholarship and more interested in simple testimony they can identify with in someway.

      This boy deserves an ‘A’ for effort.

      Sep 7, 2014 at 6:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QTYMann
      QTYMann

      Where to begin…. First of all, what is missed in all this debate and discussion over this issue is the fact that this is a fallen creation. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” and “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned;” (Romans 3:23; 5:12) Note: All scripture quotations are from the King James Version, KJV. Romans 3:10-13 basically quotes Psalm 14:1-3 to illustrate the point. Sin is anything that is wrong or against God, from a little white lie or not doing what you should, to murder. He quotes Paul’s list of sinners in I Corinthians 6:8-9, (and mispronounces idolaters; those who commit idolatry, or worship idols – anything but God, or that comes between you and God, which is spiritual adultery)but the list in Revelation 21:8 also includes more, with the last being “all liars” which includes everyone. This means that we all are in need of a Savior, an innocent who pays the penalty for us IF we accept Him as such.
      He states that he doesn’t see it as wrong. Well, neither he, nor anyone else is in a position to make that call, apart from what God has declared in scripture. A lot of people thought as he does in the past: “…every man did that which was right in his own eyes.” Judges 17:6 & 21:25, despite being commanded not to do so in Deuteronomy 12:8, “Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.” God declares in Isaiah 55:8-9, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
      He goes on to give pagan Rome as an example of what was going on in biblical times, as though that sanctifies it somehow; not true, obviously.
      He quotes Ephesians 5:31, “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.” This is referring to sex, as he correctly states, but there is something more. Children are the product of both parents’ genetic makeup, and as such are the sum of their parts; both parents being represented in one flesh. Opposite sex marriage is the only one recognized in scripture despite what they were doing i pagan Rome. It’s also true that infertile couples marry, whether due to age or something else. They are still an example to others’ children about what marriage is.
      His reference to Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is clearly an example of applying modern cultural standards to another one and taking it out of context. The man had clearly taken the woman’s virginity away, whether in love or lust, thus making her unfit to most as a bride, therefore he must then take responsibility for her from then on and must marry her. This sure beats Islam, which automatically blames the woman, and has her executed. (For other such abominations against women, see the film Honor Diaries, available in Amazon Instant video.)
      Most modern versions change sodomy to homosexuality to make it more palatable, changing the meaning from an act to an orientation; the two are not the same.
      He quotes Paul in I Corinthians 7:8-9, verse 9 stating: “But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.” and rejects it because, well, he can’t. He neglects I Corinthians 10:13, which states: “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” This also is in conjunction with what Christ said in Luke 18:27, “And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” and in John 15:5, “…for without me ye can do nothing.”
      Kids are normally homosocial, not homosexual, and that changes with the onset of puberty. The two are often confused in this oversexualized culture, especially to adolescents.
      There are many types of love, familial, friendship, charity (a giving love), etc. Sexual love is reserved for the bonds of marriage, but that doesn’t limit love. The greatest example of that is David and Jonathan. Jonathan loved David I Samuel 18:1, 3; 20:17. David was a man after God’s own heart (I Samuel 13:14; Acts 13:22), who after hearing of his death, declared in II Samuel 1:26, “… my brother Jonathan…thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.” This from a man who would end up with 5 wives, one of which (Bathsheba), he had her husband killed, so he could have her (II Samuel 11), and was exposed and punished in chapter 12.
      ASide from looking and coming across like Wesley Crusher (ST:TNG), and his mispronouncing of idolaters (it’s i-dol-ah-ters, not i-do-lay-ters), I agree with the last 2 posts of Brent and Billysees.

      Sep 8, 2014 at 12:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QTYMann
      QTYMann

      To add to the above, Derek Williams asked, “How many Jews do you personally know who obey the Old Testament, which you allege is for them alone? And what of the fact the Jesus Christ said every word of the Old Testament must be obeyed until the end of time itself?”
      First of all, the Jews are to “obey” the Torah (the first 5 books of Moses, also known as the Pentateuch to Christians) as it contains the law. It was given to the Jews by God through Moses on Mt. Sinai. Things changed in the New Testament, which quotes the Old Testament frequently, since, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” II Timothy 3:16-17. Salvation is now by grace …”through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9. It’s a gift, so you can’t earn it (not of works) by keeping the law, “lest any man should boast,” or brag about what they’ve done. “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:22-23. “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us….” Titus 3:5.
      As to “the fact the Jesus Christ said every word of the Old Testament must be obeyed until the end of time itself,” He never said that. What He did say was, “…Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.” Matthew 5:18. Since “love is the fulfilling of the law” Romans 13:10, and Jesus said, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:13; Jesus fulfilled the law’s requirement of an innocent sacrifice for sin by Hia death on the cross, and we no longer sacrifice innocent animals.
      See John 3:16-21; 36.
      As to the title of this article, “Gay Teen Eviscerates Every Religious Argument Against Homosexuality,” I think not.

      Sep 8, 2014 at 1:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QTYMann
      QTYMann

      As to Solomon, he disobeyed God. In Deuteronomy 17:14-20, the standards for a king over Israel are given. Solomon broke verses 16 and 17. Verse 17 states: “Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he multiply to himself silver and gold.”
      I Kings 11:1-12 chronicles the result:
      But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharoah, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hitites;
      2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
      3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
      4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
      5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
      6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
      7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
      8 And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
      9 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
      10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
      11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant an my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
      12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father’s sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.

      Here we see clearly that just because people in the Bible did things, doesn’t always make it right. The Bible records both the good and the bad.
      Notice in verse 2 that “Solomon clave to these in love.” Love did not make what he was doing OK with God.
      With over 1,000 wives and concubines, there would have been quite a few children, but verse 7 mentions Molech, and Molech required infant sacrifice to worship him. I guess that would explain where all the children went. (This is also one of the reasons abortion is so detested among Christians, when viewed in the light of pagan sacrifice to false gods; only now it’s For the convenience of the mother; it’s my body, nevermind that someone else’s body is involved, and I don’t want any consequences for my actions.)
      These verses also show what God thinks of polygamy, despite what Muhammad or Joseph Smith taught. Men did, and still do, a lot of what God does not condone, but falsely claim He does by quoting examples of it in the Bible. Again, not everything everyone did in the Bible was right, let alone sanctioned and approved of by God. God put up with a lot, reminding them of what He’d said before about this, and if they refused to listen, time after time, judgement followed.

      Sep 8, 2014 at 2:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billysees
      Billysees

      @QTYMann:

      Your Bible knowledge is recognized.

      And while we’re on this subject, I’d like to put forth some of my own observations that might be of interest —

      1. Jesus seldom mentions the word ‘sin’ and almost never refers to it. Maybe about a dozen times or so. What a great role-model-example for all of us to consider. It’s so much better and easier to think of ‘all of us’ and others too without that characterization.

      2. Here is how Paul describes the nature of his own writings —

      A. …our knowledge is partial and incomplete…
      B. …we see things imperfectly…
      C. All that I know now is partial and incomplete…
      (1 Corinthians 13:9,12)

      It is refreshing to me to realize that not everything written down is truth or fact from God for all people. We can now interpret scripture as ‘we see fit’ or as ‘we’re compelled to’. This is called ‘working out our own salvation or understanding’ as Paul wrote.

      3. Jesus said, “God is in heaven and we are on earth, so let our words be few”. The contributors to the NT appear not to have been aware of that.

      4. Here are 10 ‘few words’ that could help reshape the world we live in —

      1. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way..Rom 14:13

      2. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God…..Romans 15:7

      3. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love…..Ephesians 4:2

      4. Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble….1 Peter 3:8

      5. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves…..Philippians 2:3

      6. Be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone…Titus 3:2

      7. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven….Luke 6:37

      8. ABOVE ALL, LOVE EACH OTHER DEEPLY, because love covers over a multitude of sins……1 Peter 4:8

      9. Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near….Phil 4:5

      10. No one should seek their own good, but the good of others……1 Cor 10:24

      Could those be the ‘new’ 10 commandments or challenges?

      Sep 9, 2014 at 3:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QTYMann
      QTYMann

      Matthew 23:36-40:

      36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
      37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
      38 This is the first and great commandment.
      39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
      40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

      I was beginning to think I took too long to reply; that everyone had moved on. Glad to see that was not the case.

      One verse I forgot to add to the previous comments:

      Jeremiah 17:9
      The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:
      who can know it?

      Sep 10, 2014 at 3:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • QTYMann
      QTYMann

      Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
      and lean not unto thine own understanding.
      In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
      –Proverbs 3:5-6

      I guess the main point is, put God first, and everything else will eventually fall into place. Sometimes it takes awhile to see that.

      Oh, and #3 in your list was actually written by Solomon in Ecclesiastes 5:2.

      Sep 10, 2014 at 3:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Billysees
      Billysees

      @QTYMann:

      “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
      and lean not unto thine own understanding.
      In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
      –Proverbs 3:5-6″

      Proverbs 3:5-6 is probably the best ‘practical’ scripture verse ever.

      “Oh, and #3 in your list was actually written by Solomon in Ecclesiastes 5:2.”

      I thought that I had quoted from Jesus’ own words but obviously is was from Ecclesiastes 5:2.

      Sep 23, 2014 at 9:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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