Don’t you love it when media and marketers identify a trend in the gayborhood and then manufacture a story about how new and exciting it is? Usually the New York Times is guilty of this. Also, advertising agencies, who are partly responsible for the term “DINKS” to describe “double-income no kids” consumers to otherwise naive clients. And now, the “gayby boom.”
As you’d expect, “gayby boom” refers to all the homos out there having kids, state adoption laws be damned!
Along with the actual birth maneuvering (surrogate or adoption? intercourse or turkey baster?), CNN presents lots of fun thought exercises like “Are both of us ‘mom’ or are we ‘mom’ and ‘mama’?” and “Will our kids grow up to be *gasp* gay?”
Yes, some gays are ditching their DINK status to do the breeder thing. And like all parents of this generation, one question looms large: Will our kid one day come home from college, sit us down around the kitchen table, and tell us he’s … straight?
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
ggreen
Why is it some gays cream their jeans at the though of acting like straight people? Unsuitable parenting in the US is the norm. Mostly by foolish heterosexuals but now by the gays in droves. Parenting is a lifetime commitment and you shouldn’t do just because all the other foolish queens in your circle are doing it. (Peer pressure is a major reason heterosexuals procreate and look how the kids turn out.) Start out with a pet not a baby then move to foster care before you have more children. If you are immature, selfish or have a rotten relationship, kids won’t improve it or you.
Jason Knight
@ggreen: Dude, who pissed in your cheerios? Some people want to be parents. I know I do at some point. There are a lot of kids out there that would give anything for a loving parent. There’s no need to lump aspiring parents into your stereotype.
strumpetwindsock
@ggreen:
What… you’d rather leave childrearing to the homophobes who know how to do it properly?
The Gay Numbers
@Jason Knight: I plan to adopt kids in 5 years. It has to do with the fact I have wanted to become a parent since my early 20s (I am now in my mid 30s).
The Gay Numbers
@strumpetwindsock: I think it is interesting that ggreen assumes that gays make the decision the same way straights do. By definition, this is impossible since there is far more involved in us having kids. I have looked up the choices between adoption (which I am going with) and surrogacy. It is not at all an easy or fad-like process.
Jason Knight
@The Gay Numbers: I am so glad to hear that. The selfless act of parenting will no doubt bring you many years of joy. 🙂
strumpetwindsock
@The Gay Numbers:
@Jason Knight:
Yes. Good on you. I wish you all the best. It is not an easy job.
ggreen
@Jason Knight: “There are a lot of kids out there that would give anything for a loving parent.” That’s exactly my point. Nearly anyone can have procreate; being a parent takes work and commitment. Children aren’t props and the older they get the more challenging they are. Just as many gays make emotional and ill advised choices about children as straights do. There are more good kids in the world than there are good parents. How about a basic skills test for parenting? Gays having kids is trendy now just like gays getting tattoos was a few year ago.
Jason Knight
@ggreen: Have you been to an adoption agency lately? The average Joe cannot just go and pick up a baby. Where the heck are you getting your information from? Since when was this a trend? The only thing that changed is laws finally allowing QUALIFIED gay and lesbian adults to adopt. You are seriously throwing yourself to the wolves if you are simply throwing all of us into your stereotyped version of a gay man or woman. There are tens of thousands of examples of GREAT gay and lesbian parents that would give you a piece of their mind for calling their choice to be a parent a fad. Your comments and your quickness to judge is just sad, and disappointing.
The Gay Numbers
@Jason Knight: I just think ggreen is showing how ignorant he is of the process, and that’s why I discount someone like him.
SteamPunk
I actually think the fact that mainstream media is putting gay parenting in the forefront is a great thing.
I noticed that this story was the LEAD story on CNN.com for most of the day yesterday – not buried somewhere in a link pile 5 stories deep. Would you rather the media ignore us altogether?
TANK
I can’t stand self righteous gay and lesbian parents. They are largely obnoxious and use their children to justify judgment of others in giving themselves an artificial ego boost. They treat their children as science projects, self help strategies, and accessories. They walk around like they’re doing the “important work” with this sanctimonious air of smarmy smugness when raising and having kids is perhaps one of the most common, uninteresting and–though it CAN be difficult–unimportant things you can do. And they act as if their little special needs ugly childs is a wunderkind polymath, regaling even empty space with exaggerrated tales of their mind numbingly tedious and ordinary exploits. I guess what it comes down is that many parents are annoying, and their children detestable.
Todd
@ggreen: I think most intellegent people understand that having a child is the biggest commitment they’ll ever make. I have a 2 1/2 year old son with my partner of 10 years. We didn’t adopt because of some fad (insulting to suggest and compare to tattoos!), we adopted simply because we always wanted to have children. We aren’t trying to emulate heterosexuals we are just being true to ourselves. It sounds like you are “immature, selfish and in a rotten relationship.”
TANK
Yes, ‘intellegent’ people.
Todd
@TANK: No smugness here. I don’t want any kudos, but doing your best to raise a child is important, fulfilling and difficult work. Please though, don’t pat me on the back.
TANK
See, that’s what I mean. Right there. GO FUCK OFF!
Todd
@Todd: Never made a typo? Glad to meet perfection.
Todd
@TANK: I’m glad you don’t want children. Yikes!
The Gay Numbers
@Todd: Please don’t engage Tank He likes to argue for the sake of argument. If every came out against gay parenting, he would be for it. He’s the classic contrarian.
Rando
I’m only 20 now and I’m positive I want a child.
I think raising a child is something special, and can really add something to your life.
I don’t plan on visiting the gay scene every weekend till I’m 50 anyways, if I want to settle down with a guy I love and raise a child together, I’ll do so.
TANK
Contrary to the gay numbers’ pejorative use of contrarian to describe me (apparently, it’s become the new “intellectual” as a term of derision for those who question the orthodoxy), I consider it a compliment.
FairGamer
@TANK:
Wait, didn’t you just contradict The Gay Numbers right there? Pejorative or not, I think you just proved their point.
HA! I’m just trying to make waves here. Couldn’t care less about this situation. People want kids, don’t want kids, whatever. It’s life.
Personally, if I were to ever raise a child, they would grow up to be the most imbalanced, nervous agoraphobe who ever walked the Earth. It is for those reasons I’ll abstain from having kids of my own and stick to spoiling my nieces and nephews rotten.
TANK
Wait, didn’t you just contradict The Gay Numbers right there? Pejorative or not, I think you just proved their point.
How so? by merely disagreeing? That doesn’t prove that it was without principle or reason.
TANK
And to extend it further, it seems anyone who disagrees with gay numbers is wrong to him. I’d rather be a “contrarian” than a fundamentalist.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Funny, since you’ve levelled the same charge against me on several occasions. Quite negatively.
Let me ask again…. is there anyone you don’t hate?
I don’t want this stupid shitstorm detract from the reality that kids are the best thing in the world. They are our future and our hope, and they keep all of us young.
TANK
I don’t want this stupid shitstorm detract from the reality that kids are the best thing in the world.
That’s merely your opinion. I’d say that vaccines are better than kids–they keep them and others alive.
They are our future and our hope,
LOL! So now you presume to speak for the entire human race? In what sense do you mean that they are “our” future? That I’ll outlive you? Yes, likely. That one outlives another is no cause for celebration.
and they keep all of us young.
Keep your hands off, creepo! HANDS OFF THE KIDS!
Qjersey
Whoever’s having kids, I personally find surrogacy outrageous when there are so many kids who need a good home because their hetero parents weren’t ready able or willing to raise them.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Geez…. Do you think you’re never going to die?
The fact that we all pass on and are followed by new people is reality. It’s our duty to help those who come after us learn to behave like human beings. It’s not just the work of those who bear children.
And the notion that you will outlive me? There’s a good chance (though I only have 20 years on you), but who cares since you seem to enjoy swimming in bile and vitriol. I wouldn’t trade my skin for yours.
Todd
@Qjersey: I think surrogacy is fine, but i agree, adoption should be strongly considered. There are lots of kids out there who need loving families.
TANK
The fact that we all pass on and are followed by new people is reality.
It has happened. You can stop at is, for ‘reality’ is a meaningless term. Oy…this is going to suck.
It’s our duty to help those who come after us learn to behave like human beings.
Yes, which is why religion is such a problem as it causes otherwise good people to do horrible things because they believe that if they don’t, they’ll suffer in hell or go against the commands of who they believe their creator is. REligion preys upon youth, though. That’s how it perpetuates itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2epvSAGuLc
It’s not just the work of those who bear children.
I didn’t say otherwise. This doesn’t justify that children are our hope or the most important thing in the world, etc etc etc– or any of the pap you’ve belched up. I’d say that knowledge is more important than children, for even ethically it is what has consistently winnowed suffering from human life through progress (e.g., medical treatments).
And the notion that you will outlive me? There’s a good chance (though I only have 20 years on you), but who cares since you seem to enjoy swimming in bile and vitriol. I wouldn’t trade my skin for yours.
Neither would I mine for yours. But it wasn’t an offer, you see, rather a clarification of what you could possibly mean by “children are our future” (distinct from the ethical training constraint you’ve saddled others with)
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Saddling others with ethical training?
Yeah, it is our duty to be a good example to people, especially to children, even if we aren’t the people who have brought them into the world. It is also our responsibility to leave the world in at least as good shape as it was when we arrived. To ignore that responsibility is sheer immaturity.
You don’t get to shirk that one just because you’re too cool to be a breeder, IMO.
And you can cut the verbal high-wire act. If you want to ignore the fact that we will all be dead and replaced by new people in the next 100 or so years you are as deluded as those fundamentalists you like to make fun of.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
You’re absurd. First, you act like I’m somehow opposed to passing on enlightenment values to others, or proper ethical education–obviously eliminating religion for thinking people (do the right thing or else! Fire, damnation burning in hell, etc). Or that people have a responsibility to be ethical…nowhere did I say this.
And then you bring up this nonsequitur that people outlive others as somehow justifying this foolishness that “children are our hope and the most important thing there is”.
strumpetwindsock
@TANK:
Do I need to be more clear?
They are the only future that there is. Unless you think you are going to live forever.
TANK
@strumpetwindsock:
But they aren’t the only future there is. That is quite literally true (and your statement quite literally false). Even if humanity were to become extinct (and with an increase in fundamentalist belief and access to nuclear weapons worldwide, that is an every more likely scenario), that would be the future–in fact, it presupposes there’s a future (i.e., that the future exists to be something).
So what do you mean? You mean that I will outlive you, and that a person born today will most likely outlive me. That’s all you mean. Just because, on average, younger people outlive older people does not mean that children are the only future that there is, nor that they are the best thing that there is… I don’t think I’ll live forever, either.
So be more clear.
strumpetwindsock
Tank, kids deserve to be brought up right, not learning to be homophobes. You’re acting like a dumbass.
TANK
I hope everyone is sufficiently weary of these platitudes like “children are the future” and “children are great!” and “YAY KIDS!” Why do people feel compelled to say these things as often as they can, wherever they can? And often, the loudest ones are the most dysfunctional. And why do they need to sell us on their happiness? You’d think if they were so blissfully content (parents)–they’d not need to remind us of how happy they are constantly.
TANK
Tank, kids deserve to be brought up right, not learning to be homophobes.
you don’t really speak english, do you… It can’t be your mother tongue unless you have severe learning disabilities… Nowhere did I say that children don’t deserve to be brought up right, and not learn to be homophobes. In fact, I said the opposite.
BER
Tank; as a gay parent of a child my partner and I adopted-go fuck yourself!!! I hope your living with you know what!!
Darrien
@TANK:
I know what you mean about self-righteous parents. They drive me up the wall, too. But I don’t think gays are any more likely to be that kind of parent than anyone else. Actually, having said that, I’m going to disagree with myself because to be able to be a parent when you’re gay/lesbian is more difficult, so there’s every chance that gays and lesbians celebrate their children more. So yeah, you have a solid argument, there. Doesn’t actually make gays or lesbians any less good as parents, though. It can make some of them more obnoxious when they’re talking about their kids, though.
Personally I’ve always regretted not being a parent. I got a woman pregnant once (in my ‘desperate/denial’ phase) and then she had an abortion without telling me. Never slept with another woman since then. I wasn’t actually trying to get her pregnant and took precautions, but when she told me she was pregnant I was the happiest camper in the world. You have no idea what it does to your world view when someone you actively like (even if you can’t love properly) tells you they’ve aborted your child.
If I won the lottery tomorrow, the first think I’d look into would be surrogacy (I’m too old to adopt), but there’s a whole aspect of me for love and perseverance that can’t be tested because I’m gay. Even though I agree that gay parents can be socially trying, I actually celebrate their ability to be in that position. Some of the behaviours of those gay parents might be a gay/straight thing, but the desire to have children and cherish and raise them is a pretty normal human thing.
The Gay Numbers
@Qjersey: I choose to adopt in 5 years because of the reason that I know there are a lot of black kids who go unadopted. As a black guy who had a less than perfect childhood, I want to help if I can make another person’s life better. That’s how I feel about the issue. I don’t feel it is my right to judge other people’s choice on this. I just know what I feel.
The Gay Numbers
@Darrien: Part of what I suspect people are crapping on is the ability to have a desire to stick to something for throughout one’s life or at least 20 years. That’s what having a kid is about. I have never seen anyone who is a gay parent have the time to stick their noses into what choices other people making. From what I can tell , they don’t have time for that. Then again, part of this could be class. I don’t know many super elite gays. I know middle class gays and the occasional well to do gay. That may color my sense of people having the time to do what you describe.
Darrien
@The Gay Numbers:
I agree entirely. The decision for a gay or lesbian person to become a parent is entirely more complex and difficult than it is for so many straight couples. By and large, one doesn’t get to be a gay parent through a drunken one-night stand. If you want to be a parent when you’re gay, you have to really REALLY want it. Apart from all the bureaucratic hurdles you have to jump, you have to be prepared to pay for the privilege. And not just a little, either. You’re looking at something like $25,000 (according to my gay friends in the US) just to adopt and a minimum of £35,000 if you want to go down the surrogacy route in India (which is way cheaper than the US).
If you want to have a child when you’re a gay man, then you have to commit to it way more than most straight people. And from most of the research about gay parents in Europe, not only are gay parents (or straight men who have children through surrogacy) more likely to be committed, they stay committed to their children because they’ve really thought through the mechanics of the whole parenthood thing.
Yep, there is a class aspect to all this – but I think that comes down to the ability to pay for children one way or another.
TANK
@BER:
And what a lucky child it is to have such a mature, intelligent and understanding parent. Disgusting.
The Gay Numbers
@Darrien: Well, adoption is far less expensive. I am looking at 5 to 8 per kid. I eventually want to raise two. The reality is that it costs a lot even when you have the kid naturally. Surrogacy is much much much more expensive.
The Gay Numbers
@Darrien: THose numbers are what I found in my research, but don’t quote me on them.
TANK
It was never my contention that gay parents were worse than heterosexual parents. In fact, the evidence is that those children fare better than children raised by straight parents (academically and have a higher chance of attending college). I don’t know where that’s coming from.
As to the facile and vacuous statement that the hostility is issuing from a lack of commitment or ability to commit (I think that idiot numbers was going off about it)–idle speculation. And not everyone who is repulsed by baby inc and the parenting industry and self righteous parents of all orientations is afraid of commitment and sacrificing for someone else. Read a book, man…learn something about others. Some of the most ethical and self sacrificing people on this planet are childless.
TANK
It’s such a common accusation made by gay parents, too…and substantiates the holier than thou attitude that characterizes many of them. “Everyone who isn’t a parent is selfish. I have sacrifice because I care about others more than myself”–the egocentric assholes who say things like this can save it for church.
The Gay Numbers
Once again- I wish people would just ignore Tank. There is something wrong with him.
TANK
I’m sure you do wish people would ignore me, numbers. I generally always prove your “arguments” invalid and accusations false.
As to there being something wrong with me, it’s likely based on disagreement with you. THere’s something wrong with anyone who disagrees with your terrible reasoning.
Darrien
@The Gay Numbers: @TANK:
Learn from each other boys. Neither of you are morons and both of you are making important points. Ultimately, parenthood is a hard-going, long-term suffering thing. Compromise is vital. No kid will ever be the kid we want, they’ll just be the kid we have to deal with. And that’s why they’re the kids and we’re the grown-ups
The Gay Numbers
@Darrien: I have no problem with compromise. I do have a problem with emotionally fucked up people like Tank who want to inflict their crazy on the rest of us. The reality is that I have never seen a thread in which Tank is not attacking someone. Sometimes I have agreed with him, and sometimes not, but always he’s coming off as if his main focus is to argue with people. Not to discuss what are different perspectives. If he just once didn’t come off as the angry guy in the room who every one should avoid least he get ticked off because you said hello, then maybe I would see him differently. But for right now- he comes across as that guy.
TANK
Yeah, you speak for the rest of us, numbers… It’s pretty simple that you always categorize anyone who disagrees with you as against EVERYONE, and not just you. I don’t think you’re going to get how you’ve just described your own contributions to these comments perfectly.
J. Clarence
I think what is happening is a beautiful thing. The straight press is just finally catching on. Queer culture has been changing a lot in recent years. I remember last year they had inflatables at the Pride Festival in Boston, and this year I was kinda of shocked by the sheer amount of children at the Pride parade.
Eventually gay beings parents will loose whatever “interesting” factor it now has in the press and become as American as, well, gay people.
I can’t wait for stories of parents pressuring their gay son or daughter to use the good boy or girl down the street as a surrogate/sperm donor over Thanksgiving.
wtf
@ggreen: I agree – to an extent. I think there are some very capable parents out there, but I also fear there are a lot of people with “puppy syndrome,” which is the burning desire to have a cute little puppy but not one to have a big obnoxious dog. When babies become accessories, we’re surely heading down the drain (I think that Bruno movie even makes fun of that – how topical).
The Gay Numbers
@wtf: You think some adoption agency is sending children to the people you described considering how invovled the process is? this is not Madonna with a lot o fmoney carrying economic favor.
Todd
@TANK: The simple answer is, if you are gay and you are or want to be a parent you shouldn’t be criticized or celebrated. If your gay and don’t want children, you shouldn’t be criticized or celebrated. We should however celebrate the fact that we are able to have children if we choose…or not.
galefan2004
@Todd: Perhaps you should examine what it is that made you always want to have children. I think if we are honest with ourselves the only thing that causes us to do desire to have our own little brats is pressure from outside sources. That explains why people are so willing to jump into something they know absolutely nothing about. I have more respect for you because you adopted instead of bringing some kid into this shit hole of a world that is only getting worse the more children we pump out. However, I actually agree with Tank on this one that having children is an assimilation attempt and that any self-respecting gay man wouldn’t cave to family and peer pressure.
galefan2004
@strumpetwindsock: Actually they are our destruction. This world is a shit hole. Why is this world a shit hole? Because of over population. Why is population an issue? Because outside of China people can’t control their own freaking breeding habits. It has become quite obvious that we have to many little freaking kids running around in this world right now and that that is creating problems. However, people still insist on bringing them into the world for very selfish reasons. If you want a child to complete you or fulfill some long term desire then you shouldn’t be having them.
galefan2004
@Qjersey: You know what I find outrageous? That Madge has to go to Africa to bring more African bastards back to this country instead of giving a good home to one of the many kids in her own country that need a good home. That has cost me a lot of respect in the terms of Madonna. Its almost as bad as Oprah when she decided to launch her school project in Africa because the kids in her own country, you know the one that made her the rich bitch that she is, aren’t grateful enough for her help.
Todd
@galefan2004: If you’re going to ask the question, it should be asked of all people who have children, gay or straight. Regardless of any personal deepseated societal or familial preasure that I am subconsciously unaware of(or of which there is none), I have a child and I am as happy and gay as I was before I adopted him.
galefan2004
@The Gay Numbers: 20 years my ass. If you desire to have a kid the commitment you make to them should be LIFE LONG. You should be willing to build them up and pick them up for the rest of their lives rather they are 18 or 38. If you only plan on doing 20 years of devotion then don’t have kids.
galefan2004
@TANK: Remember, Bruno has a black baby too.
galefan2004
@The Gay Numbers: Only thing wrong with Tank is he doesn’t assimilate to the same beliefs that the rest of you espouse. He is willing to stand up for his beliefs against the grain, and that makes him “wrong” in the minds of some people.
Todd
@galefan2004: I wish your parents had thought like you. There are better ways to present your ideas than though vitriol. I agree the world is overpopulated, but even if you could slow breeding today, it would’t erase all the kids that need families now.
galefan2004
@J. Clarence: You have to be kidding me. There is no way in hell I would take my kid to a pride festival. Those festivals are about celebrating pride in being gay not pride in supporting assimilation. I personally don’t think I would take my kid any place where the focus is on drag queens and go-go boys. I just simply wouldn’t want my kid to see that before he was ready to have it explained to him. Make no doubt about it, the only reason you see whiny little brats at pride is because their parents want them as an accessory.
galefan2004
@The Gay Numbers: Make no doubt about it, the average gay man that wants to adopt can throw down the same amount of money that Madge did in Africa (which wasn’t really that much to begin with). They might not have her resources, but they are easily able to shell out $30,000 to an adoption agency to help the agency over look certain things (such as how fit they are to be an actual parent when the nanny is raising their kid accept on accessory days).
galefan2004
@Todd: I don’t believe that straight couples actively chose to be parents. They end up as parents because they don’t actively chose to have safe sex or get abortions. Most children are accidents that straight couples just have to suck it up and deal with. If they actually chose to have kids then I gladly ask them where that desire comes from. That desire is nothing more than family and peer pressure.
galefan2004
@Todd: No, but that is why we have population control. Kids that grow up in orphanages, except maybe a select few, are normally dead or in prison by the time they are 40 anyways.
Todd
@galefan2004: If you question this desire then you need to question all desires. Some people question why we desire to be gay. We know that we don’t “desire it” and that it’s just who we are. They can come up with all kinds of reasons from nurture to abuse to peer preasure to whatever, but at the end of the day, and for whatever the reason, we are who we are. I personally don’t question why I’m gay or why I wanted to have a child. I am what I am and that’s all that I am (to quote a famous sailor)!
strumpetwindsock
@galefan2004:
Oh bullshit. Any gay pride celebrations I have been to (at least the outdoor parade part) have been for the most part completely kid friendly, and there were plenty of children there.
Would you be making these points if it were carnival or a similar event that is perceived as a little more straight?
I’m not sure what you’re shamed of, but usually that’s something that affects adults a lot more than children (until we TEACH it to them). When I was in Vancouver a few years back with my nieces they got a real kick out of the gold-painted fellow on stilts wearing chaps. It was a great costume. Was there anything that needed explaining?