What does it mean when the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America approves a âsocial statement on human sexualityâ â a 34-page document that says while thereâs no consensus on whether homosexuality gels with Scripture , âthe people in this church will continue to accompany one another in study, prayer, discernment, pastoral care, and mutual respectâ â just before tomorrowâs vote on whether sexually active gays can join the clergy? Well, itâs good news â but not OMG AMAZING news.
Itâs sort of an âagree to disagreeâ statement, but itâs particularly notable because its wording took a more inclusive approach to gays (i.e. canât we all just get along?) rather than exclusionary (i.e. get the F out). Also, the decision to approve the statement required a two-thirds supermajority vote from the 1,045 delegations; it received precisely that amount, with 66.67 percent. Thatâs a big deal, because tomorrowâs vote on gay clergy needs only a simple majority for passage.
The social statement lays a theological foundation for a liberalized policy on gay clergy, and supporters of the proposal praised Wednesdayâs vote. âWe are encouraged and hopeful that ⌠this will result in the churchâs elimination of the current ban on ministers in same gender relationships,â said Emily Eastwood, executive director of Lutherans Concerned/North America, a group of pro-gay Lutherans.
Opponents of the social statement said it ignores clear scriptural direction that homosexuality is a sin. âWe are asked to affirm a description of sexuality based on a reality thatâs shaped not by Scripture but by todayâs culture,â said Curtis Sorbo of Adams, N.D., a convention delegate from the ELCAâs Eastern North Dakota Synod.
ELCA officials said it shouldnât be assumed that passage of the social statement automatically means the proposal on gay clergy will be approved. âWe havenât yet had that debate, and I would not want to conjecture that,â said the Rev. Rebecca Larson, an official in the ELCAâs headquarters in Chicago.
And did we mention a freakinâ tornado hit the Minneapolis Convention Center yesterday while the delegates were voting? God challenged them, and they prevailed! Humans 1, Evil 0. (Nobody was hurt, thankfully.)
UPDATE: Witness the tornadoâs damage to the church.
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
(Pictured, top: Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson, via AP)
Chance
Oh boy! We’re tolerated! Where do I sign up to be welcomed as a “probably but maybe not” sinner in the Lutheran Church?
Call me when they actually have the balls to make a real declaration. Call me when they slap guys like Curtis Sorbo around and say “No! Not anymore! Never again! We crossed out those pieces of scripture! And with a red pen!”
Until THAT day, the Lutheran church does not support us, and I have no intention of supporting them. Gay friendly my ass.
Brian
Lutherans still officially make homosexuality “wrong, sinful and deviant.”
This 32 page Statement is a religious version of “don’t ask, don’t tell” about honmosexuality. It doesn’t take a stand about anything. It is the same con-job used by MCC, UCC and Vicki Gene’s Episcopalians – “you’re welcome here, but, still headed to Hell.” These small religions represent less than 1% of the churches in the US.
It would truly be progress if even one single religion actually said “homosexuals are NOT WRONG.”
If this is the best they can do, after 2,000 years, I don’t think they have any intention of extinguishing the lie that homosexuals are wrong.
Religion has caused all our pain and suffering. We need to learn how to put Equality BEFORE Religion. We’re Not Wrong.
Charles Merrill
“the people in this church will continue to accompany one another in study”. More study of 4000 year old Leviticus passages? They’ve got a question about LGBT’s? The sheeple and church primates can simply contact
American Psychological Association, 750 First Street, NE, Washington, DC 20002-4242
Telephone: (800) 374-2721 or (202) 336-5500M
M Shane
Gosh, I live only a few blocks from the Conventiopn Center and didn’t seea sigle Luthern flying thru the air! Well so much for that.: The Lutherans dominate religion here in Minnesota I believe. They’re a far cry from the man eating Homosauruses of the Baptist ilk. Just sort of catatonic about everything in general. The main idea is to keep the kids around home even if they ‘re a little odd!. ( PASSIVE- AGRESSIVELY just don’t talk about it.)
DON’T WORRY ABOUT THEM, JUST DON’T BE TO QUICK TO GIVE AWARDS
For assimilationists this is the best religions will ever get.toward acceptance. Brian said it : a “Don’t ask don’t tell” policy of religious variety.
This Patriarchy: the family enthroning breeding and self sufficient industry(capitalism). When they decide that God is a Woman or something other than what HE is, something different might happen.
strumpetwindsock
It’s right in the lede of this story that the church was not able to reach a consensus on this issue. In other words, there is a schism, with camps strongly for and against gay inclusion.
As such, the fact that they were able to agree to disagree and at least open the door is progress in the right direction, whether you boys acknowledge it or not.
Having had this conversation with Brian he does not recognize the truth when you put it right in front of his face.
Organized religion may not be your way, and that is fine; it’s not mine either. But you should at least recognize that we have friends, supporters and a good many GLBT people who are church members and working very hard to reform these organizations.
Sitting in front of a computer screen bitching about people who are actually doing something to help us just because it doesn’t fit into your little box is childish and harmful.
CMYK
This is so typical of Lutherans.
Austin
@Brian – MCC is fully inclusive of gays.
Gay marraige, gay priests, no condemnation.
Don’t lump MCC with the other “tolerating” churches.
Disgusted Gay American
why would any clear thinking gay person want to join this church? If you feel the need to be spiritual – join the UCC for Christ sake!
Josh
Seeing all the negative comments, I would like to point out that there are MANY supportive members of this church who are trying very hard to change the church. While I do not know the final outcome of the convention, I am please by the number of people who have shown support.
Brian
@Austin: Please show me and the rest of the world where MCC has officially declared that “homosexuality is not wrong and not a sin.” Surely they have published this formal position if they actually believe it. They need to reject some scripture to do that and it would be PROGRESS. Hanging a rainbow flag and “welcoming gays and lesbians” is marketing.
That would change if MCC had that formal declaration – please find it for us.
Brian
@Josh: You belong to a Religion that continues to make homosexuals WRONG. How could you do that to your fellow LGBT brothers and sisters? Let us know when UCC, MCC, Episcopalians and Lutherans STOP MAKING GAY WRONG – THAT would be PROGRESS.
Charles Merrill
@Brian: If Christianity is wrong about homosexuality, as gay MCC Christians claim, is it not reasonable to ask what else is mistaken about that religion? Is there anything right about Christianity, anything worth preserving? I say no, NOTHING. Burn or edit the motherfucking “holy books” before they cause more LGBT’s to be murdered, more laws to be made against us, and more suicides.
The MCC has endorsed the National Equality March on Washinton in October. because they believe it is important for people of faith to have a visible presence before our governmentâs leaders in the White House, the Congress, and the Supreme Court.
I don’t agree with them that they should try to cloak themselves in “respectabiluty” of conventional religion. They need to read Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and get rid of the King Version of the Bible that they study. How could they even touch a book that condemns us to death? Total disconnect.
Charles Merrill
King James version
rick
the church was across the fucking street! and storms like that happen in the midwest each year at this time, it is not unsusual. there were storms all across the midwest yesterday.
strumpetwindsock
@Austin:
See what I mean?
I have been though this discussion with Brian before, and is no talking sense to him on this issue.
Some of these guys are as closed-minded as the fundamentalists they complain about.
strumpetwindsock
@rick:
And it would be a bit ironic for anti-religious types to see natural events as some sort of supernatural sign.
Actually I grew up north of there, across the Canadian border. Tornadoes are pretty common, and hardly a sign from god.
rudy
MCC has been discriminated against by the World Council of Churches and National Council of Churches for its pro-gay theology.
BTW, if God had wanted to send a twister to tell the Lutherans anything, he would have done it in the twenties when they (along with the Catholics) thought Hitler was going to revive Christianity and family life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Community_Church
http://mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home
http://www.amazon.com/Theologians-Ericksen-Susannah-Heschel-Olemacher/dp/B000BJKWOO
M Shane
No. 10 ¡ Brian I think that MCC is THE gay church here in Minnesota; I dislike religion in more ways than I can say, mostly because it has never made any sense to me in the least and when everyone expects you to believe in superstition, it is difficult.
If anyone hasn’t noticed Christianity and other religions of the ilk celebrate Adanm and Eve as the primordial RIGHT couple not Adam and JIm, which would be a nice concession. (Wanda could be over in a hut making babies herself.) TheChristian, Jewish, Hebrew churches are all Patriarchal: which implies that the man runs the house, does the fucking, makes kids, has a capitalist ,self sufficient system etc.
All of these “nice” folks are really quite rude and self righteous, despite going to church allthe time etc. All the heathans of NYC are more polite.
I personally would rather chew brillo pads than sit in the midst of a buch of cowering dummies , being told how to live my life,by ripping off my neighbor, hatingh minorities, bombing kheathan countries.
Besides, if you are placing your money on the churches changing as they have in a few cases, rather than atheism taking hold as in Europe you’ll have a long time before you cash in, if ever. Christians have burned and killed minorities for Centuries. Rememember Bush’s stirring marketing of the war as Gods messanger, the”crusade:” against Iraqi’s .
As I recall the Nazi’s had a strong peice of Christian belief in their conquest of the world and Hatred of Jews.
Granted, I think it is sweet that the Christaain parents get to have christain kids who hide their gayness, behind the pretense that it has nothing to do with sex. But having moved away from here for most of my life to escape the insane prudery and actually be gay, and having come back to find that everything is just the same, the good part of all this seems limited.
Christianity will if anything be the end of our kind for as long as they can manage: remember what a catchy disease it was in the witch trials.
Brian
@Charles Merrill: I agree completely. I am on Sam Harris’s team “The End of Faith.” Faith is not good for mankind and it never was. More people need to understand that.
HRC (and other Gay Inc. whores) have joined hands with religion. It is absurd to befriend the enemy – especially considering so-called “gay-friendly” churches make up less than 1% of the 340,000 churches in the US.
I think the greatest thing that could happen for humankind is the end of religion – perhaps we (LGBT people) should lead that effort.
Chance
@rudy: “Each local congregation [of MCC] is free to determine matters of worship, practice, theology and ministry providing they meet certain basic requirements involving open access to communion and subscription to the traditional Christian creeds.”
From your link, Rudy. “Traditional Christian creeds” include homos being bad bad sinners, just in case you haven’t read your bible lately. MCC is nice, fo sho, with their “social outreach programs.” They want to make homos feel ok. Or at least OK enough that they’ll pay their tithing. But they don’t intend on doing away with the prejudiced parts of the bible any time soon. Just quietly working around them. Is that really all you expect of your spiritual home and your moral compass? Da-yamn.
@strumpetwindsock: Same goes to you, buddy. You brag about the “enlightened discussions” you’ve tried to have with those nasty atheists around here, but I’ve yet to see you have a single ONE.
So I’ll give you another chance, ‘cuz I’m just that nice.
You and Austin and your ilk repeat this mantra – They ordain us. They bless our unions. They don’t [actively] condemn us. They welcome us. There is no problem here.
So I say again – how low is your self-esteem if this is enough for you? Don’t you think that you deserve more? How about the rest of us, and hey, the young gay kids just trying to accept themselves in a world and a theological belief system where they are wrong?
Religion has lied for millennia, saying that homosexuals are wrong. This lie has been endorsed by the entire history of Abrahamic thought. MCC has inherited that tradition, and unless they specifically, formally reject that lie, then they are implicit in its continuation.
Think about it this way – if MCC (and the rest) actually believed that homosexuality wasn’t a sin, that the doctrine and scripture don’t apply anymore, it would be pretty damn easy to say so. And MCC has had 41 years to do so.
They haven’t.
Why not?
Charles Merrill
@Brian:
We are doing it. The Age Of Reason is upon us through technology. Thanks to the exchanges on the Internet we will get rid of religious dogma and superstition. It takes time, but the under 30’s don’t buy Jesus. Older people my age fall into the trap and leave their estate to churches. It’s nuts.
Chance
@Charles Merrill: Yours are the most enlightened posts I’ve ever read on Queerty. How does a guy with as much common sense as you get tied up in the blog wars? I’d love to buy you a drink sometime and talk about the real strategy for gay equality. (Hint – it involves a direct challenge to religion. All religion. Not just those Mormons.)
schlukitz
That any person living in the 21st century who took science class in school could actually believe that a natural phenomena like a hurricane, tornado, tsunami or volcanic eruption could actually be a vicious act of retribution from a vengeful God, defies all common sense and logic.
strumpetwindsock
@Chance:
It was hardly an enlightened conversation (not my claim, anyway). I was just trying to get him to read and understand English.
Feel free to catch up on it in here if you wish:
http://www.queerty.com/episcopal-church-finds-3-priests-of-the-homosexual-variety-worthy-of-job-promotions-20090803/
or not.
I have no qualms with your athiesm; I’m agnostic myself. But the fact is there are GLBT people who are religious, and that is none of your business. If you don’t agree the least you can do is not get in the way of them trying to make their organization BETTER.
Chance
@strumpetwindsock: I call bullshit. You shouldn’t provide links to threads in which your ass is handed to you.
You can’t answer a question. That’s all I see in that back and forth – a logical argument, and a weasly “let’s give them some credit for being nice to us” response from you. You can be presented by logic, math, analogy, allegory, or personal testimony, but it makes no difference to you! You’ll just spout the first bit of memorized talking points that pops into your pretty little head.
And that’s all I expect in response to this post. So the rest is officially NOT @ you.
Everyone else: This guy is putting words in the mouths of religion – words that they haven’t been willing to say for themselves. The conservative Jews are literally on the record as saying that they can ordain gay rabbis, bless same sex unions… but oh yeah… gays are SINNERS and sinners are WRONG. I forgive Strumpet for missing the connection, it’s awfully subtle, and his attention span is short.
So explain to me how it’s different in the Episcopalian, Lutheran, UCC, or MCC faith? If they’ve had [at least] decades of opportunity? It must be something that they don’t want to say.
strumpetwindsock
@Chance:
It would be very convenient if you could put your spin on that conversation and have it actually be that way. Sorry to disappoint you.
I showed him a church declaration explicitly recognizing gay relationships as a creation and blessing of God, and he refused to accept it.
And I visited the MCC website and found an essay rejecting the biblical condemnations of homosexuality.
But really that is beside the point. I have just as much respect for gay and gay-friendly people who are fighting for reform and the right to worship as evil Roman Catholics.
I certainly have more respect for someone who is fighting and accomplishing positive change and challenging our opponents in public than I do for someone who can only bitch and complain from the sidelines.
The fact is that their belief is no more anyone else’s business than our sexuality, and I think you will have just as much luck trying to change it.
For all the big talk I hear from some people in here about bringing down the churches, you are actually quite impotent. The most you can do is badmouth the work of many gay people and our supporters who are actually doing something.
And my memorized talking points? Sorry, I don’t have anyone like Dawkins or Hitchens to parrot. This is just me talking.
rudy
Dawkins is the real deal.
Hitchens will one day screw over atheists just as he did the Left by gleefully following George Bush into Iraq.
Chance
@strumpetwindsock: There you go. You just confirmed my “spin.”
Gay relationships being a creation and blessing of God is not the same thing as saying homosexuals aren’t sinful.
An essay is not a formal declaration of policy, doctrine, or belief. It’s a pamphlet.
So again I ask – not that you’ll bother to answer without just regurgitating the same drivel again and again – if it’s really what they believe, then why won’t they say it? Must be a reason.
I respect people working for change, but not people who are working for a paycheck. And when activists, lobbyists, and ‘gay friendly churches’ ignore the real problem – religious beliefs – then no. I don’t have a ton of respect for them. I’ll wait until they’re doing something with a real strategy, and some real integrity.
Eric
Lutherans in America are either Missouri Synod or ELCA, Missouri Synod is the bigoted one that says hate the gay. ELCA is less born again and more progressive and mainstream, like “Jesus died for your sins, it’s all good, no worries.”
Coming out in high school one of my good friend’s dad was an ELCA Lutheran pastor, and there was Jesus crawling up the walls in that house, but I was always treated very respectfully and always felt very safe in their home during that scary ass time in a twink’s life. The pastor’s wife even told me about how both of their kids had a gay babysitter growing up, and if “people are bullying you and those idiot administrators at your school aren’t doing anything, we’ll back you up if you need to raise a ruckus.” That’s something important to hear and know you have that kind of support when you feel all meek and alone being the only gay kid in school.
Brian
@Chance: Allowing gays to be pastors or to have their partnership “blessed” is just a business decision. Wake up. ALL these religions make homosexuals wrong and that is our problem.
Your approval of them means you sanction the hate and discrimination religion creates. The blood is on your hands because you support them.
M Shane
No. 30 ¡ Brian I’m not sure what your thoughts are on this, but, partially because I live in this overwhelmingly christian State now, where everyone goes to church, I’m very much aware that gays want marriage because they seek the parental and societal approval . I’m inclined to wonder about the rest; not what they claim but what they really want
My own sense for this whole ;’marriage” movement is that many, not all people just want to be part of respectable society and have the church bless their union, making it Godly. The fact is certainly that it would be far less of a burden for the rest of us to avoid a religious war of this kind and have domestic partnerships, which people will give us, because it is not a n assult on their beliefs.
Wre are certainly feeling the brunt of a newfound hatred of gays. Don’t you think that something like that would be better to avoid.?
Oh everyone, I asked a Lutheran what happened in this ‘ravaging’ he said that the cross on the Church just got bent a little.
strumpetwindsock
@Chance:
You and Brian are cut from the same cloth, dear.
Nothing anyone says or does could make you believe that these churches (or growing factions within them) have rejected the old prohibitions against homosexuality, and are in fact actively working in our favour.
You don’t like what they are doing? Big deal? It is none of your business. Most of these people have had to stand up to much worse shit face-to-face from fundamentalists and homophobes. Do you think they’re going to pay any attention to you and the rest of the gay thought police? I think they are a bit more concerned with doing real work on our behalf.
Are you going to go down and picket some of these gay-friendly churches and tell them they are fools and traitors? Please, send me your itinerary. It would be worth the airfare and popcorn to watch you get a strip torn off your hide and your ass kicked down the road by people who are actually doing constructive work – that is if you can be bothered to remove your ass from your chair and do anything other than talk tough through a computer screen.
anonymous
@strumpetwindsock: “Actually I grew up north of there, across the Canadian border. Tornadoes are pretty common, and hardly a sign from god.”
For real. I grew up in Oklahoma, one of the most god-fearing states in the union and they are regularly ravaged by devastating tornadoes.
strumpetwindsock
@anonymous:
Yeah, most Republicans would consider the place where I grew up (manitoba) Communist. There actually was a communist city counsellor elected in Winnipeg numerous times back in the 70s, and I think they elected the first openly gay mayor in North America – Glenn Murray. The provincial government there is still social democratic.
But yeah, lots of tornados. I saw them every summer as a kid, and even remember cowering in the back of a car shaken around by a tornado.
That ain’t God’s work at all.
Chance
@Brian: Hey, don’t point that at me. It’s a real stretch for anyone to say that I approve of religion. I’m trying to hold those fools accountable.
@strumpetwindsock:
You either don’t read what I write, or you’re just unable to hold a conversation. There’s not much point in continuing. So before I depart, I’ll just restate a few main points. The ones you’ve still been disregarding.
You’ve happily ignored that there is one thing that will make me happy, but only one thing: if supposedly gay friendly churches go on record saying that homosexuality is not a sin, and not wrong. That’s the only way that we can get real change. The rest is just superficial decoration – no substance.
You absurdly say that this is none of my business. Religion is the only thing that makes homosexuality wrong. I am a homosexual. They are making me, specifically, wrong. I want them to stop making me wrong. MCC, UCC, Lutherans, Episcopals and the rest have inherited the theological tradition that homosexuality is a sin. Unless they specifically contradict this tradition, then they are a part of it. These gay friendly churches have failed to do so. They need to be held accountable.
And if you’re unwilling to put equality in front of religious beliefs, then you, too, have failed to fight for real equality. And until you do, I don’t have any time for you, no matter how much time you don’t spend in front of your computer.
Chavaleh Forgey
Hey friends,
I am a Lutheran eagerly awaiting today’s vote. It’s a good thing, not a gay- bashing thing at all, in fact I would say that AS A WHOLE the Lutherans are one of the most inclusive mainline denominations. I recognize that that isn’t necessarily saying much, and the UCC church is two decades ahead of us, it’s true, but saying up here that the Lutherans are trying to forge a don’t ask don’t tell policy or are making a stand against homosexuality simply isn’t so.
The first vote (yesterday’s) was necessary before the one about gay clergy because we simply have never addressed the issue as a body before. We have blanketed it over with “gays are sinners, straight people are sinners, let’s all get along” because that’s honestly how we see it. We all need Christ, and not because He’s a ticket to Heaven but because our lives will be better.
Lutherans DO NOT believe that you have to be a certain way or do certain things to get into Heaven. We believe that Heaven is a person (Jesus) and that He loves us ALL enough to want us in His presence where we can be whole and healthy people. Not to bring up the nature/nurture debate, but I never made a conscious choice to be straight and I don’t have any friends who say they decided to be gay, so why would God create someone a certain way and then punish them for it? Not the loving God we espouse, certainly.
So we needed to stand up and say that we acknowledge homosexuality as a real part of creation and not something deviant and apart first, before we went on to the clergy vote.
I fervently pray that today’s vote will be an inclusive one. My church is an inclusive one regardless, we have several gay and lesbian people in leadership and I thank God for these wonderful people.
So please don’t judge the Lutherans by other crazy denominations in America. We believe that Christ ministered primarily to oppressed people — seriously, he hung with WOMEN in ancient PALESTINE!! Gays and lesbians in America certainly qualify right now. If we want to emulate Christ, we should all be in your corner.
Blessings,
Chavaleh Forgey
[email protected] if anyone wants to continue this conversation!
Brian
@strumpetwindsock: You’re not very bright or just a hypocrite. RELIGION is the only thing that makes homosexuals WRONG. That is the reason we have teen suicides, we have hate crimes against us, we have discrimination – ALL the pain and suffering we experience come as a direct result of RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. To deny that shows exceptional ignorance.
You suggest that we must all “respect other peoples beliefs,” and this makes you sound like religion. Of course nobody is required to respect any belief – we live in a world where we can all grow and learn, typically by challenging beliefs. Science challenges everything. Aside from the idiocy of “respecting irrational beliefs,” the other problem is those religious beliefs are what has DEFINED homosexuals and they are LIES.
Religion made Blacks second class citizens and endorsed slavery. I suppose you think we should respect those beliefs, also?
It is very clear from your Posts that you are not interested in equality for LGBT persons – instead you want to preserve religion. People should get a sense of your intention and intellect from that.
Brian
@Chavaleh Forgey: INCLUSIVE doesn’t matter. Lutherans HAVE NOT officially changed their beliefs about homosexuals. They continue to put off THAT vote. They are afraid of the outcome.
In the meantime you engage in a phony “welcoming and affirming” marketing plan to attract (or retain) LGBT persons.
If you wanted to make real progress you would formally REJECT the biblical references to homosexuality. WHEN is that going to happen?
Chance
@Chavaleh Forgey: Religion has caused more than 2000 years of pain, suffering, and persecution for the LGBT community. So no. Saying “let’s all get along” is not enough. Saying that your church is inclusive is not enough. I’m glad that people like you are at least a little supportive of LGBT. I’d appreciate it a lot more if you took a decisive step to end that terrible tradition.
Religion is responsible for our inequality. Religion has some ‘splainin to do. Religion needs to apologize.
Or, once enough young people grow up and realize that nothing religion has said about homosexuality makes any rational sense, religion needs to become officially irrelevant.
So will the Lutherans acknowledge that there has been a biblical lie about homosexuals, and declare that they will no longer have any part in that?
I’m not holding my breath.
Brian
Damn, that tornado was hardcore. Touched down two blocks from our place. We NEVER get tornados in the city – they dissipate before the burbs. But did anybody consider that “God” was sending the tornado as a warning to the gay haters?? Luckily they didn’t win.
Robert, NYC
The United Church of Christ (UCC), does in fact support marriage equality along with the Quakers.
Chavaleh Forgey
And the Lutherans! đ
Blind hatred of “religion” as a whole is the same as blind hatred of anyone. It’s divisive, doesn’t help anyone.
Merry Christmas, all!