Religion is responsible for our inequality. Religion has some ‘splainin to do. Religion needs to apologize.

Or, once enough young people grow up and realize that nothing religion has said about homosexuality makes any rational sense, religion needs to become officially irrelevant.

So will the Lutherans acknowledge that there has been a biblical lie about homosexuals, and declare that they will no longer have any part in that?

I’m not holding my breath.

In the meantime you engage in a phony “welcoming and affirming” marketing plan to attract (or retain) LGBT persons.

If you wanted to make real progress you would formally REJECT the biblical references to homosexuality. WHEN is that going to happen?

You suggest that we must all “respect other peoples beliefs,” and this makes you sound like religion. Of course nobody is required to respect any belief – we live in a world where we can all grow and learn, typically by challenging beliefs. Science challenges everything. Aside from the idiocy of “respecting irrational beliefs,” the other problem is those religious beliefs are what has DEFINED homosexuals and they are LIES.

Religion made Blacks second class citizens and endorsed slavery. I suppose you think we should respect those beliefs, also?

It is very clear from your Posts that you are not interested in equality for LGBT persons – instead you want to preserve religion. People should get a sense of your intention and intellect from that.

I am a Lutheran eagerly awaiting today’s vote. It’s a good thing, not a gay- bashing thing at all, in fact I would say that AS A WHOLE the Lutherans are one of the most inclusive mainline denominations. I recognize that that isn’t necessarily saying much, and the UCC church is two decades ahead of us, it’s true, but saying up here that the Lutherans are trying to forge a don’t ask don’t tell policy or are making a stand against homosexuality simply isn’t so.

The first vote (yesterday’s) was necessary before the one about gay clergy because we simply have never addressed the issue as a body before. We have blanketed it over with “gays are sinners, straight people are sinners, let’s all get along” because that’s honestly how we see it. We all need Christ, and not because He’s a ticket to Heaven but because our lives will be better.

Lutherans DO NOT believe that you have to be a certain way or do certain things to get into Heaven. We believe that Heaven is a person (Jesus) and that He loves us ALL enough to want us in His presence where we can be whole and healthy people. Not to bring up the nature/nurture debate, but I never made a conscious choice to be straight and I don’t have any friends who say they decided to be gay, so why would God create someone a certain way and then punish them for it? Not the loving God we espouse, certainly.

So we needed to stand up and say that we acknowledge homosexuality as a real part of creation and not something deviant and apart first, before we went on to the clergy vote.

I fervently pray that today’s vote will be an inclusive one. My church is an inclusive one regardless, we have several gay and lesbian people in leadership and I thank God for these wonderful people.

So please don’t judge the Lutherans by other crazy denominations in America. We believe that Christ ministered primarily to oppressed people — seriously, he hung with WOMEN in ancient PALESTINE!! Gays and lesbians in America certainly qualify right now. If we want to emulate Christ, we should all be in your corner.

Blessings,
Chavaleh Forgey
forgeyv@aol.com if anyone wants to continue this conversation!

@strumpetwindsock:
You either don’t read what I write, or you’re just unable to hold a conversation. There’s not much point in continuing. So before I depart, I’ll just restate a few main points. The ones you’ve still been disregarding.

You’ve happily ignored that there is one thing that will make me happy, but only one thing: if supposedly gay friendly churches go on record saying that homosexuality is not a sin, and not wrong. That’s the only way that we can get real change. The rest is just superficial decoration – no substance.

You absurdly say that this is none of my business. Religion is the only thing that makes homosexuality wrong. I am a homosexual. They are making me, specifically, wrong. I want them to stop making me wrong. MCC, UCC, Lutherans, Episcopals and the rest have inherited the theological tradition that homosexuality is a sin. Unless they specifically contradict this tradition, then they are a part of it. These gay friendly churches have failed to do so. They need to be held accountable.

And if you’re unwilling to put equality in front of religious beliefs, then you, too, have failed to fight for real equality. And until you do, I don’t have any time for you, no matter how much time you don’t spend in front of your computer.

Yeah, most Republicans would consider the place where I grew up (manitoba) Communist. There actually was a communist city counsellor elected in Winnipeg numerous times back in the 70s, and I think they elected the first openly gay mayor in North America – Glenn Murray. The provincial government there is still social democratic.

But yeah, lots of tornados. I saw them every summer as a kid, and even remember cowering in the back of a car shaken around by a tornado.

That ain’t God’s work at all.

For real. I grew up in Oklahoma, one of the most god-fearing states in the union and they are regularly ravaged by devastating tornadoes.

You and Brian are cut from the same cloth, dear.

Nothing anyone says or does could make you believe that these churches (or growing factions within them) have rejected the old prohibitions against homosexuality, and are in fact actively working in our favour.

You don’t like what they are doing? Big deal? It is none of your business. Most of these people have had to stand up to much worse shit face-to-face from fundamentalists and homophobes. Do you think they’re going to pay any attention to you and the rest of the gay thought police? I think they are a bit more concerned with doing real work on our behalf.

Are you going to go down and picket some of these gay-friendly churches and tell them they are fools and traitors? Please, send me your itinerary. It would be worth the airfare and popcorn to watch you get a strip torn off your hide and your ass kicked down the road by people who are actually doing constructive work – that is if you can be bothered to remove your ass from your chair and do anything other than talk tough through a computer screen.

My own sense for this whole ;’marriage” movement is that many, not all people just want to be part of respectable society and have the church bless their union, making it Godly. The fact is certainly that it would be far less of a burden for the rest of us to avoid a religious war of this kind and have domestic partnerships, which people will give us, because it is not a n assult on their beliefs.

Wre are certainly feeling the brunt of a newfound hatred of gays. Don’t you think that something like that would be better to avoid.?
Oh everyone, I asked a Lutheran what happened in this ‘ravaging’ he said that the cross on the Church just got bent a little.

Your approval of them means you sanction the hate and discrimination religion creates. The blood is on your hands because you support them.

Coming out in high school one of my good friend’s dad was an ELCA Lutheran pastor, and there was Jesus crawling up the walls in that house, but I was always treated very respectfully and always felt very safe in their home during that scary ass time in a twink’s life. The pastor’s wife even told me about how both of their kids had a gay babysitter growing up, and if “people are bullying you and those idiot administrators at your school aren’t doing anything, we’ll back you up if you need to raise a ruckus.” That’s something important to hear and know you have that kind of support when you feel all meek and alone being the only gay kid in school.

Gay relationships being a creation and blessing of God is not the same thing as saying homosexuals aren’t sinful.

An essay is not a formal declaration of policy, doctrine, or belief. It’s a pamphlet.

So again I ask – not that you’ll bother to answer without just regurgitating the same drivel again and again – if it’s really what they believe, then why won’t they say it? Must be a reason.

I respect people working for change, but not people who are working for a paycheck. And when activists, lobbyists, and ‘gay friendly churches’ ignore the real problem – religious beliefs – then no. I don’t have a ton of respect for them. I’ll wait until they’re doing something with a real strategy, and some real integrity.

It would be very convenient if you could put your spin on that conversation and have it actually be that way. Sorry to disappoint you.

I showed him a church declaration explicitly recognizing gay relationships as a creation and blessing of God, and he refused to accept it.

And I visited the MCC website and found an essay rejecting the biblical condemnations of homosexuality.

But really that is beside the point. I have just as much respect for gay and gay-friendly people who are fighting for reform and the right to worship as evil Roman Catholics.

I certainly have more respect for someone who is fighting and accomplishing positive change and challenging our opponents in public than I do for someone who can only bitch and complain from the sidelines.

The fact is that their belief is no more anyone else’s business than our sexuality, and I think you will have just as much luck trying to change it.

For all the big talk I hear from some people in here about bringing down the churches, you are actually quite impotent. The most you can do is badmouth the work of many gay people and our supporters who are actually doing something.

And my memorized talking points? Sorry, I don’t have anyone like Dawkins or Hitchens to parrot. This is just me talking.

You can’t answer a question. That’s all I see in that back and forth – a logical argument, and a weasly “let’s give them some credit for being nice to us” response from you. You can be presented by logic, math, analogy, allegory, or personal testimony, but it makes no difference to you! You’ll just spout the first bit of memorized talking points that pops into your pretty little head.

And that’s all I expect in response to this post. So the rest is officially NOT @ you.

Everyone else: This guy is putting words in the mouths of religion – words that they haven’t been willing to say for themselves. The conservative Jews are literally on the record as saying that they can ordain gay rabbis, bless same sex unions… but oh yeah… gays are SINNERS and sinners are WRONG. I forgive Strumpet for missing the connection, it’s awfully subtle, and his attention span is short.

So explain to me how it’s different in the Episcopalian, Lutheran, UCC, or MCC faith? If they’ve had [at least] decades of opportunity? It must be something that they don’t want to say.

It was hardly an enlightened conversation (not my claim, anyway). I was just trying to get him to read and understand English.

Feel free to catch up on it in here if you wish:

http://www.queerty.com/episcop.....-20090803/

or not.

I have no qualms with your athiesm; I’m agnostic myself. But the fact is there are GLBT people who are religious, and that is none of your business. If you don’t agree the least you can do is not get in the way of them trying to make their organization BETTER.

From your link, Rudy. “Traditional Christian creeds” include homos being bad bad sinners, just in case you haven’t read your bible lately. MCC is nice, fo sho, with their “social outreach programs.” They want to make homos feel ok. Or at least OK enough that they’ll pay their tithing. But they don’t intend on doing away with the prejudiced parts of the bible any time soon. Just quietly working around them. Is that really all you expect of your spiritual home and your moral compass? Da-yamn.

@strumpetwindsock: Same goes to you, buddy. You brag about the “enlightened discussions” you’ve tried to have with those nasty atheists around here, but I’ve yet to see you have a single ONE.

So I’ll give you another chance, ‘cuz I’m just that nice.

You and Austin and your ilk repeat this mantra – They ordain us. They bless our unions. They don’t [actively] condemn us. They welcome us. There is no problem here.

So I say again – how low is your self-esteem if this is enough for you? Don’t you think that you deserve more? How about the rest of us, and hey, the young gay kids just trying to accept themselves in a world and a theological belief system where they are wrong?

Religion has lied for millennia, saying that homosexuals are wrong. This lie has been endorsed by the entire history of Abrahamic thought. MCC has inherited that tradition, and unless they specifically, formally reject that lie, then they are implicit in its continuation.

Think about it this way – if MCC (and the rest) actually believed that homosexuality wasn’t a sin, that the doctrine and scripture don’t apply anymore, it would be pretty damn easy to say so. And MCC has had 41 years to do so.

They haven’t.

Why not?

HRC (and other Gay Inc. whores) have joined hands with religion. It is absurd to befriend the enemy – especially considering so-called “gay-friendly” churches make up less than 1% of the 340,000 churches in the US.

I think the greatest thing that could happen for humankind is the end of religion – perhaps we (LGBT people) should lead that effort.

If anyone hasn’t noticed Christianity and other religions of the ilk celebrate Adanm and Eve as the primordial RIGHT couple not Adam and JIm, which would be a nice concession. (Wanda could be over in a hut making babies herself.) TheChristian, Jewish, Hebrew churches are all Patriarchal: which implies that the man runs the house, does the fucking, makes kids, has a capitalist ,self sufficient system etc.
All of these “nice” folks are really quite rude and self righteous, despite going to church allthe time etc. All the heathans of NYC are more polite.

I personally would rather chew brillo pads than sit in the midst of a buch of cowering dummies , being told how to live my life,by ripping off my neighbor, hatingh minorities, bombing kheathan countries.

Besides, if you are placing your money on the churches changing as they have in a few cases, rather than atheism taking hold as in Europe you’ll have a long time before you cash in, if ever. Christians have burned and killed minorities for Centuries. Rememember Bush’s stirring marketing of the war as Gods messanger, the”crusade:” against Iraqi’s .
As I recall the Nazi’s had a strong peice of Christian belief in their conquest of the world and Hatred of Jews.

Granted, I think it is sweet that the Christaain parents get to have christain kids who hide their gayness, behind the pretense that it has nothing to do with sex. But having moved away from here for most of my life to escape the insane prudery and actually be gay, and having come back to find that everything is just the same, the good part of all this seems limited.

Christianity will if anything be the end of our kind for as long as they can manage: remember what a catchy disease it was in the witch trials.

BTW, if God had wanted to send a twister to tell the Lutherans anything, he would have done it in the twenties when they (along with the Catholics) thought Hitler was going to revive Christianity and family life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.....ity_Church

http://mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

http://www.amazon.com/Theologi.....B000BJKWOO

And it would be a bit ironic for anti-religious types to see natural events as some sort of supernatural sign.

Actually I grew up north of there, across the Canadian border. Tornadoes are pretty common, and hardly a sign from god.

See what I mean?

I have been though this discussion with Brian before, and is no talking sense to him on this issue.
Some of these guys are as closed-minded as the fundamentalists they complain about.

The MCC has endorsed the National Equality March on Washinton in October. because they believe it is important for people of faith to have a visible presence before our government’s leaders in the White House, the Congress, and the Supreme Court.

I don’t agree with them that they should try to cloak themselves in “respectabiluty” of conventional religion. They need to read Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and get rid of the King Version of the Bible that they study. How could they even touch a book that condemns us to death? Total disconnect.

That would change if MCC had that formal declaration – please find it for us.

As such, the fact that they were able to agree to disagree and at least open the door is progress in the right direction, whether you boys acknowledge it or not.

Having had this conversation with Brian he does not recognize the truth when you put it right in front of his face.

Organized religion may not be your way, and that is fine; it’s not mine either. But you should at least recognize that we have friends, supporters and a good many GLBT people who are church members and working very hard to reform these organizations.

Sitting in front of a computer screen bitching about people who are actually doing something to help us just because it doesn’t fit into your little box is childish and harmful.

DON’T WORRY ABOUT THEM, JUST DON’T BE TO QUICK TO GIVE AWARDS

For assimilationists this is the best religions will ever get.toward acceptance. Brian said it : a “Don’t ask don’t tell” policy of religious variety.

This Patriarchy: the family enthroning breeding and self sufficient industry(capitalism). When they decide that God is a Woman or something other than what HE is, something different might happen.

American Psychological Association, 750 First Street, NE, Washington, DC 20002-4242
Telephone: (800) 374-2721 or (202) 336-5500M