There is a weird self-loathing in the gay community, but I think things are changing. As gays and straights mix together more and the world becomes much more homogenised, we’re going to become less defined by our sexuality. Will camp still be a thing? I don’t know. I was just an effeminate little boy who turned into an effeminate man. And I think you still see little boys now and think, ‘Aw, he’s so going to be gay!’ And that’s something that just seems to appear in nature, it just seems to happen. I think it’s weird that there is a section of the gay community that then judges those little boys. All that kind of stuff is just heartbreaking.”
— Graham Norton asked his thoughts on being camp in an interview with Winq
Steven James Tait
Is this why he grew a beard…
Baba Booey Fafa Fooey
I never understood the prejudice againat feminine gay men. Masculinity is so fragile, that’s my only conclusion.
Avery Alvarez
I think there is a lot of prejudice to go around in the gay community.
People will whine, “waaah, I’m the gay that gets made fun of”, while viciously attacking other gays.
Femme gays certainly love to attack masculine gays just as much. Then you get into politics, and it seems no body can stand that others have different political ideas, or different philosophies, or just stray from the “official gay narrative”.
Face it – the gay community is very intolerant unless you fit a certain stereotype. It seems like the “diversity” everyone keeps talking about is nothing but an illusion.
CWM85
Sadly the gay community can be very catty, shallow and intolerant as Avery mentioned. As someone who was new to coming out, going to gay events in my late teens, early 20’s I too was sorta uncomfortable around more flamboyant gay men. It wasn’t until I dated one and were around his friends that I began to respect them and become more secure with myself. I think they are the one’s in the front lines and should be respected in our community. Anyone, can be annoying but effeminate, flamboyant gay men have been leading the charge for equality, by being very visible.
Masc Pride
But let’s not leave out how some fems certainly love to judge and generalize as well. Some masculine guys do bash fems and view them as inferior, but some fems also love to bash masculinity as a way of defending their effeminacy (see Baba Booey Fafa Fooey’s comment). The bashing is coming from both sides, so this shouldn’t be a one-sided discussion anymore. No more victim cards for anyone.
Giancarlo85
@CWM85: Well… We do agree on something at last.
@Masc Pride: Incorrect. Effeminate men rarely judge so called “masculine” men. You are lying when you say fem men bash masculine men to defend their femininity That is wrong. The majority of bashing comes from masc4masc types like yourself. Sorry, but it is indeed a one sided discussion. People like you do the huge majority of bashing… Hypocrisy.
Giandorko86
Oh boy Giancarlo is now the talking head for all the feminine gay crowd! Where do you get the time?
Masc Pride
We also have to factor in that some people are just outrage junkies. Particularly on Queerty, we see the same user maniacally going from story to story to pick fights with people in the comments…yet won’t hesitate to turn around and claim he/she (or whatever it’s claiming to be today) is somehow a victim and everyone else is the problem. A lot of the people claiming to be victims here are usually the most vicious ones.
Giancarlo85
@Giandorko86: Oh look it is the lame troll… With the stupid username. This is what happens when you have no originality.
@Masc Pride: outrage junkie? You seem to be addicted to hystrionics. You are the one who always tries to be the victim with your hysterical crying about how masculine men get discriminated against. You have some serious problems and nobody takes you seriously on here.
Giandorko86
@Masc Pride: amen
Giandorko86
@Giancarlo85: I take him seriously. Stop talking for me!!
Giancarlo85
@Giandorko86: Nobody cares what a lame troll thinks. You are so unoriginal… And now you are parroting Maskpride.
How boring.
DarkZephyr
@Giandorko86: …did you create a mock screen name after Giancarlo’s? Aren’t you at least a little bit embarrassed that you did that?
Giandorko86
@Giancarlo85: bully much?
Giandorko86
@DarkZephyr: I am yes. Kinda the point.
Giancarlo85
@DarkZephyr: He is a chat room troll that does that to others. I don’t really care. Boring and lame is what it is. What year is? 2005 on MySpace or something? Making mocking names on the internet is so ten years ago!
Masc Pride
Hystrionics, huh? Giancrazy = the androgynous/transsexual Steve Harvey. lol
Masc Pride
@Giandorko86: Isn’t is funny how all the attacks he/she throws at others are the same things people tell him/her all the time? It’s like it just recycles everything.
Giancarlo85
@Masc Pride: I thought you were ignoring me…
What a shocker. It replies.
Lol.
First off, you sound a lot more like Steve Harvey. I can’t wait for you to misspell Colombia and the Philippines. You are also a homophone, so you share a lot in common with him.
Giancarlo85
@Giancarlo85: *homophobe
So what other boring attack do you have?
Giandorko86
@Giancarlo85: only to you, your special. I’m starting to see a pattern of lies and grandeous statements with you. Guess it’s just me.
Masc Pride
Hystrionics? Homophone? Someone’s so mad he/she can’t even type right. Absolutely hilarious!
@Giandorko86: No. Multiple members have seen and pointed out the same pattern. It just refuses to quit. Have you seen the video of it kicking a defenseless drag queen right in the head? It rivals the Dallas BBQ chair brawl.
joeyty
@Avery Alvarez: Very accurate observation, Avery.
Brian
The reason we judge effeminate men more harshly than butch women is because we give privileges to women. Female privilege means that we allow women to wear trousers all the time but not men to wear dresses. Female privilege means that we allow women to wear inappropriately revealing clothing at functions but require men to wear shirts and jackets that cover up their bodies.
Guess who is to blame? It’s women. Women helped to create the double standard and then exploited it in order to cement their privilege. The reason straight-identifying men went along with it is because women have the ability to use sexual consent as a weapon to control male behavior. She threatens men who don’t agree with the idea that she is entitled to privileges.
The reason gay-identifying men went along with female privilege is because gay identity politics grew out of feminism and associated female privilege. Gay-identifying men are inextricably linked to female privilege today. Without female privilege, there would be no gay identity rights.
Giancarlo85
@Masc Pride: You make more typos than anyone else. Histrionics was spelled correctly. Many phones autocorrect homophobe to homophone. You seem to have rocks in your head. You make typos all the time.
Brian: And more of the same recycled verbal diarrhea… How lame.
Come on trolls… Try harder. You are getting boring.
Brian
@Giancarlo85: You failed to challenge any of my points. This shows that you’re lacking in that department.
Giancarlo85
@Brian: You have no point. Your remarks about women are off once again. You hate feminine gay men because they assault your norms of gender. You believe men must be manly and women should stay inside their homes. I have a great place for you… Saudi Arabia. You would fit in perfectly. They hate women too. And you can continue being a closet queen.
CWM85
I think we all should realize that we as gay men or bi are all loathe in some way regardless of our economic, race, language background and we really should have we are in this together approached. As much as I disagree with some of the liberal ideologies, I realize I can’t vote for a Republican in 2016 since they are carry anti gay themes in some way. There still is a lot of work to be done equality wise and united front would be nice in the community.
Brian
@Giancarlo85: I love effeminate gay-identifying men…but not in bed.
You also seem allergic to the idea of criticizing women. No serious commentary can occur if you refuse to criticize women under any circumstance.
SFHandyman
It is the people on the fringes who make it much easier for everyone else. The super fem gay boy makes all the other gay boys seem normal. The super fem gay boy is leading the battle and fighting the war to make being gay easier for the rest of us. We should all thank the people who are on the fringes. We should defend them and support them.
Bauhaus
Get your front row seat at @Brian’s master class: I HATE MY MOMMY, WOMEN AND GAYS, for the closeted homosexual – learn how to trick straight guys into having sex with you, the splendor of glory holes, having sex with fire hydrants, resenting women, and so much more…
Scribe38
@Masc Pride: If I ever see an dating ad saying Masculine men need not apply I will look at what you are saying. Unfortunately fem guys get it from straight guys, gay guys, and some women. Some “masc” gays are offended by “fem” gays because it plays into what they view as gay stereotypes, while other are just self hating. When I was younger and stupider I did plenty of fake outrage at other gay men behavior. I had to be able to fight, weld, work on cars to prove I wasn’t like “them”. I’ve grown and know that was my bullshit and had nothing to do with fem gays, hopefully you live long enough to come to the same conclusion.
Masc Pride
@Scribe38: There is more to life than gay dating ads! You may not see “no masc” on profiles, but how many times do fems get automatically thrown in the “self-loathing” box just because they like football, weight lifting or if they dare to prefer Nine Inch Nails over Madonna? Never happens. No one attacks fems for not being comfortable with their sexuality (even though a lot of them request “masc only” on their profiles as well). Both sides are guilty of attacking each other in different ways. However, we’ve made it an unspoken rule that those who are part of a more favored demographic should just have to tolerate whatever hostility or outright bigotry is directed their way, which is just as oppressive as the original oppression that creates that kind of logic.
Franklin
It’s usually been my experience that many gay men who claim to the be the very masculine usually end up being noticeably fem. Then again, what does it even mean to be masculine? The definition of masculinity changes depending on the culture that you live in. Here in America, wearing tight fitting colorful clothing and riding a Vespa is not considered manly, but go to Italy and people wouldn’t look twice at you.
Franklin
@Masc Pride: I don’t think anybody has a problem with you liking football on NIN. However, if a very flamboyant fem gay man liked those both of those things and showed up to a football game or a NIN concert you were at, would it make you uncomfortable? What if people started reacting negatively to their perception of his sexuality. Would you speak up on his behalf?
Masc Pride
@Franklin: It’s not my responsibility to come to another grown man’s rescue. If he can’t speak up for himself, that’s on him. As far as this hypothetical fem showing up to a game or an NIN concert, I really couldn’t care less whether he’s there or not. Do you have to like everyone in the crowd when you go to games and concerts? Why would you assume this hypothetical person might somehow make me uncomfortable? Bashing aside, assumptions and jumping to conclusions is another huge problem when it comes to this stuff.
Scribe38
@Masc Pride: Love football (my lions suck and screw the packers) and the first season of Glee, and I’ve have music of both Madonna and NIN on my ipod and trust me no fem would give a damn. Loads of fem guys like muscles so there’s another negative against your post to me. I’ve been on this site for a number of years, although I rarely post. I’m actually 41 now versus my original 38 sign-in name. I see a lot of your post and just shake my head because you are always throwing stones at your gay fem brothers or drag queens, or anyone else who fails to meet your “man” standard
SonOfKings
I don’t agree with the other assumption in the article: that gays mixing with straights makes us any less defined (or differentiated) by our sexuality. I think we’ve seen with racial integration that being up in somebody’s face doesn’t make them forget, or overlook, that dimension of differentness.
judysdad
@Giancarlo85: I’m really glad I don’t know you.
Masc Pride
@Scribe38: I know. You rarely post anything until you’re ready to start bitching at me. I’m quite flattered that I seem to be your sole inspiration to comment. You always start out like you want to have a civilized conversation, but it never takes long before you start claiming you’re right about everything. Please link back to just one of these times I was throwing stones at someone who didn’t throw stones at me first. You claim there are soooooo many examples, so produce just one. I’ll wait.
Tracy Pope
@Brian: Holy crap! What a convoluted mess that was. Just that you decided to bring that when the article has nothing to do with that is plain weird.
ButtStuff
Merry Christmas, @Giancarlo85: You’re the steamy hot dog shit, everyone has nightmares about stepping in after they get a new car.
Signed, Santa.
Giancarlo85
@CWM85: I can’t vote republican because I value prosperity and they would push this nation into a depression.
@Brian: You constantly bash on women. What did your mkm do to you that was so horrible? I criticize everyone. Want to criticize certain women? Go after Carly Fiorina for lying about her record and Ann Coulter for being a BS artist.
Your other cricitisms simply are invalid and don’t carry any weight. Seriously you ahould consider a move to Saudi Arabia or India. India treats its women to your standards.
@Masc Pride: I listen to the Rolling Stones and other rock music. I also listen to reggaeton and a variety of Latin music. I play football (soccer as you call it) and my favorite teams are AC Milan (Carlos Bacca!) And SL Benfica. I don’t listen to Madonna much… Kinda rarely actually.
So what do you say that?
And to the other troll… Have a great holidays. I am not going to stoop to your level.
Giancarlo85
@Giancarlo85: *mom
Funny how autocorrect only works half the time and not the way you want.
Have a great holidays everyone (and I mean everyone!).
Franklin
@Masc Pride: Nobody is making assumptions, I just asked a question. Also, as far as your comment on not helping another grown man, I disagree. Growing up as a person of color in America, I was raised to speak up if I saw someone being harassed because of the color of their skin. That’s carried over into my life as gay man as well. Then again maybe that’s the difference between race vs sexuality. One could only wonder how the Civil Rights movement would have turned out had chosen to practice your philosophy.
Giancarlo85
@Franklin: Mask pride wants you to stay quiet and submit to oppression. His philosophy is disturbing and if practiced would mean the end of democracy.
Masc Pride
@Franklin: The very question had to have been rooted in the assumption that he might make me uncomfortable or you wouldn’t have asked. I reserve the type of responsibility you’re describing for my daughter and no one else. You like to poke your nose in business that’s not yours, so I’m not surprised at your disagreement. You’re an adult, and no one is responsible for protecting you anymore. Grow up and stop expecting total strangers to come to your rescue every time someone hurts your feelings. Try standing up for yourself. It’s empowering. Particularly with the attitudes, ad hominem and the generally catty way a lot of you guys choose to express disagreement, why should anyone want to help any of you out?
As far as your dramatic Civil Rights Movement statement, we voted to pass same-sex marriage in my state, and my vote was a part of the reason SSM passed. I did help out with gay civil rights here. However, I’m not assuming the responsibility of protecting random gay guys at games and concerts.
Giancarlo85
@Masc Pride: I suppose Nelson Mandela should have stayed quiet and not poked his nose into other peoples business. Perhaps LBJ and Marton Luther King should have stayed quiet too on civil rights.
Seriously do you even realize what you are saying? We are a nation. Not a bunch of individuals. An injustice somewhere is an injustice everywhere (paraphrasing).
And what do you know about standing up for yourself? You show your cowardice on this dite and you are in no position to tell others what they should or shouldn’t do.
Giancarlo85
@Giancarlo85: *on this site.
You are one rotten person, mask pride. I am sorry but not all of us want to live in the shadows like you.
Avery Alvarez
@Masc Pride: “You’re an adult, and no one is responsible for protecting you anymore. Grow up and stop expecting total strangers to come to your rescue every time someone hurts your feelings. Try standing up for yourself. It’s empowering.”
I know that we’ve disagreed before, but this statement rings so true, and it is the heart of the problem of SJW culture.
I wish Queerty and other gay media, instead of teaching young gay and bi men to project their low self-esteem and low self-confidence onto others, would teach them how to empower themselves, to truly love themselves for who they are.
I mean, the hypersensitivity, the hypervigilance, the hyperaggression, the quick temper and threats from people that claim to be the MOST out and proud in the community are in no way signs of happiness and content. They are signs that there is STILL a lot of guilt, shame, depression, unhappiness, low self-esteem in the gay community. And I think that’s the root cause of may if not most problems that plague LGBT.
Like I said, I hope in 2016 we get less articles on “how I’m a victim, people are shaming me, and now the world owes me something”, and more artilces are “No one can shame you if you’re not already ashamed of yourself, No one owes you self -esteem, not other gay men, not society, not the world. Only you can build it up in yourself. it will be a hard journey. We can build it up together, but we can’t build it up for you. So let’s get started”
Let’s aim for a culture of strong, confident gay and bi men in 2016, who are comfortable in the skin they’re in and don’t depend on no man for their full self-esteem. That’s true empowerment.
Captain Obvious
What a crock. It’s usually fem guys in bars and clubs making anyone who isn’t fem, white, or young feel unwelcome.
All this boohoo victim stuff like there’s some group of masculine men bullying fem gay guys. Give it a rest. There’s a reason masculine guys broke off into much smaller sub-groups where they can feel comfortable quietly without all the drama, putting on a show, and screeching “witty” banter.
Giancarlo85
@Captain Obvious: You live in fantasy land. Masc4masc types don’t want fem guys around at all.
Brian
When you build a community on a sex act, that community starts to fracture. It becomes divided into factions depending on your sexual turn-ons. Within the gay community, you have the fems, the trans, the bears, the leathers, the twinks, the sugar daddies, the cubs…the list is enormous. See how community isn’t really community?
It’s just a fake notion of community united by the victimhood notion but consisting of sharply divided groups with no interest in each other. Indeed, there is venom towards each other.
Just remember what I’ve been saying for a long time: you can’t build a community on a sex act.
Giancarlo85
@Captain Obvious: Ah ha. masculine guys broke away because they are usually closeted and scared.
Giancarlo85
@Brian Dead wrong. The community is based on seeking recognition and rights. One can be a virgin and be gay. Not based on a sex act. There are many political activist and equality groups, you simply fail to mention. Take your right wing nonsense elsewhere.
Brian
@Giancarlo85: The simple fact is that the gay community – ie that which is marketed to gay-identifying men – is built on sex. Just flick through any gay-marketed magazine and every second page contains an ad showing a man’s naked chest or some other sexualized innuendo.
There is no communal sense except the victimhood notion.
fredbear
@CWM85:
knl
you know, it’s gotta be a city thing.
my partner and i live in a small cabin in the woods of upstate new york. i am a 61 year old long haired vegan deadhead. we belong to a rural mens group that gets together once a month for a pot-luck. we are old and young, fat and thin, masculine and effeminate, well off, working class and poor, blue collar and white collar, 24 years old to 92 years old. there is none of this crap i read about on this web-site. we are all there for one other.
i truly feel sorry for all you guys who are so disenfranchised from your own community.
if we can’t be accepting of each other, what chance do we have to be a part of society at large?
Kent Elliston
I thought this was going to be some sort of meta-satire. Guess not, Effeminate gay men honestly don’t think they own and define the gay male?
onthemark
To go back to the actual article (yeah, a radical idea!)…
Graham Norton really doesn’t strike me as particularly “effeminate.” It seems strange to me that Norton sees himself that way. (Does this attitude make me more effeminate, or less effeminate? Do I even wanna know, after reading these comments???)
Damn, what a lot of predictable comments. Cliches from the usual suspects. It’s deja vu all over again. And only ONE comment even mentions Graham Norton? Funny.
Lvng1Tor
@Giancarlo85: @Avery Alvarez: @Masc Pride: @Giandorko86: What if they are all the same person but don’t know it…like some sort of queerty sybil!
SonOfKings
The prejudice that many gay men have towards fems reminds me of the disdain many African Americans have for “dark skin” blacks with Africanic features and hair. It’s self hate.
Giancarlo85
@Brian: There is no such thing as “gay identifying”. I already went over with you why. You don’t “identify” (choose) to be gay. No, it’s not built on sex or a sex act. Gay communities formed as a shelter from oppression. The entire movement was built on left wing liberation politics. This has nothing to do with your stupid 1950s era views or magazines. Time to get back to reality.
And what victimhood notion? I hear you right wing crackpots bring up that term all the time. You know who are acting like they are perpetual victims? The Christian right. Wake up Brian… the community won extensive legal battles and are the victors.
Now take your self hating bigotry somewhere else please.
Random
@Brian: Sorry, but this is simply untrue. It’s MEN who police gender behaviour and, at times, aggressively and violently so, too. Gender stereotypes are a function of patriarchy and a signifier of power relations, so boys/men that don’t conform are seen as ‘letting the side down’ and need to be brought into line, which is why they face the very prejudice that Norton is referring to.
Avery Alvarez
@Lvng1Tor: I try to offer commentary that isn’t just fighting over who has it worse – masc or femmes, and I get thrown in with the trolls.
That’s Queerty for you. Lots of useless fàggots like yourself.
Avery Alvarez
@Lvng1Tor: I feel the need to apologize for that previous comment, to you and all the the people commenting here.
It’s definitely not the season for that type of commentary or language. And I agree with Norton’s overall message.
Sincere Apologies to All.
Lvng1Tor
@Avery Alvarez: It’s all good 😉
Giancarlo85
I am not anyone else on here let me make that very clear to you right now.
This is my ONLY account.
I have no reason to create multiple accounts like “buttstuff”.
Eldred
@Masc Pride: “Some masculine guys do bash fems and view them as inferior”
Like you do?
Masc Pride
@Avery Alvarez: So agreeing with you right now. There’s also a lot of jealousy in this community too. Lots of guys just like to attack other guys they assume have it easier. There doesn’t really have to be any real provocation at all. They just assume certain guys have it easier, so those guys become targets for all their frustration and misery. Lots of venting and self-victimization. As long as these types can blame others for everything, a culture of strong gay men is unlikely.
@SonOfKings: Darker skin is an attribute all blacks have; are you saying all gay men are effeminate?
@Eldred: Please show me where. As you see, Franklin decided to disappear when asked to back up a similar claim. I predict you will do the same.