Queerty is better as a member
I don’t really see too many gays complaining about Latinos. It’s usually fats,fems,Asians, and Blacks.
“Has Grindr Turned Gay Men Into Racist, Homophobic Body-Facists?” No. Has it encouraged those who already were? Definitely.
Ok queerty, you start. Post someone with more than an ounce of fat on them in your morning goods section. Or a person of colour. Or some body hair. And no, that one Orientalizing bear post doesn’t count.
tell me how this isn’t racist.
the amazing thing about this article is that people are seeming to intentionally miss the point. the “negative” comments are a sea of “why are you telling me who i can fuck!?!?” which entirely misses the point – it’s about the language used, and the tone.
“what’s your type?”
-Not asians or blacks
see how stupid that sounds? it’s one thing to refuse to challenge and question your concepts of attraction, it’s another entirely to blatantly share your prejudices in such a rude manner.
we live in a world that worships five things above all else: whiteness, maleness, heterosexuality, and money, and Christianity.
a white straight male worshipping culture of course affects our concepts of attraction, and the guys who defend their use of “no fats fems asians or blacks” miss the point. they say “i’m allowed to like what i like!” which ignores the sociological reality that “what they like” has already been dictated to them by society at large. they’ve been limited by prejudice in society and further limit themselves with their arrogant inability to interrogate and challenge their own held concepts of attractions.
I’m not sure that it’s entirely about “society” somehow making us prefer white guys. I think another explanation for this trend could simply be this: a) there are more white guys in America and b) people might have a biological tendency to be attracted to people from a similar ethnic background; c) therefore, you hear a lot of white guys saying they’re into other white guys and d) people interpret this to mean that
I think the real issue comes from the other direction — non-whites who feel like they will simply die if they don’t get a white boyfriend. Overweight guys who complain that chisled models won’t date them. These are the folks who really seem to be stuck wanting an unattainable standard, and who need to readjust their perceptions of beauty/desire, etc. If fat is beautiful, then why not go date another fat guy, ya know?
I’m not sure that it’s entirely about “society” somehow making us prefer white guys. I think another explanation for this trend could simply be this: a) there are more white guys in America and b) people might have a biological tendency to be attracted to people from a similar ethnic background; c) therefore, you hear a lot of white guys saying they’re into other white guys and d) people interpret this to mean that there’s this huge over-preference for white guys, when to some extent it may simply just be about the numbers. (By comparison… straight folks still tend to couple up within their race, even though laws have allowed interracial for years. Desire isn’t the same for everyone, but there may still be cultural reasons why people simply prefer to date within similar cultural/ethnic backgrounds. I agree that we should focus on positive language (what we want) instead of negative terms (“No X’s Y’s or Z’s…”
I think the real issue comes from the other direction — non-whites who feel like they will simply die if they don’t get a white boyfriend. Overweight guys who complain that underwear models are being mean by not dating them. These are the folks who really seem to be stuck wanting an unattainable standard, and who need to readjust their perceptions of beauty/desire, etc. If fat is beautiful, then why not go date another fat guy, ya know?
“Later in Rowlson’s article, self-described “Queer brown drag queen faggot” ML Sugie suggests, that we start focusing our desire based on a person’s creative capacity and the bodily pleasures of sex rather than purely on their physical appearance.”
Ok. Really? Why not “focus our desire” on women, while we’re at it? Why not “focus our desire” on people that can sing the national anthem in Navi? Because really its about as credible as saying that we can (and should!) “focus” our desires on someone because they’re creative (something Queer brown drag queen faggot isn’t judging by their crushingly descriptive name and absurdly banal suggestion about the nature of desire.
Also, there is no such thing as a “body fascist”, at least not in this context. Are these people forcing their preferences on others? No. Are they punishing those who don’t live up to their ideal? No. Are they limiting themselves in terms of sexual partners and life experiences? Absolutely but let’s not pretend that there’s a “body holocaust” on the horizon. There isn’t and this is stupid.
sociological research and evidence strongly suggests otherwise, Mike.
you’re one more white guy who is choosing to ignore facts.
I’m not sure that it’s entirely about “society” somehow making us prefer white guys. I think another explanation for this trend could simply be this: a) there are more white guys in America and b) people might have a biological tendency to be attracted to people from a similar ethnic background; c) therefore, you hear a lot of white guys saying they’re into other white guys and d) people interpret this to mean that there’s this huge over-preference for white guys, when to some extent it may simply just be about the numbers. (By comparison… straight folks still tend to couple up within their race, even though laws have allowed interracial for years.) Desire isn’t the same for everyone, but there may still be cultural reasons why people simply prefer to date within similar cultural/ethnic backgrounds. I agree that we should focus on positive language (what we want) instead of negative terms (“No X’s Y’s or Z’s…”)
There is nothing more worthless than a sociologist.
gays who complain about liberals are like Ann Frank complaining about attics.
JayKay, i love when you come on to post. you never fail to prove us liberals right.
don’t worry, none of those people whom you deem “undesirable” will ever want to hook up with you. they’d likely prefer to hook up with a guy who actually has a pair of balls.
All this from analyzing personal ads? Hey, while we’re at it; what ever happened to real liberals who weren’t judgemental? You know, hippies and such. Now they’re all protest this, protest that and no Love and Peace!
it’s amazing that people will defend their “right” to say “no fats fems asians or blacks” rather than ask themselves if it is in fact the right thing to say, with no thought at all as to how those words will affect those who read them.
a culture where people don’t even take a moment to consider the impact their words will have on others.
the irony. calling people “judgemental” for judging others who judge others based on their ethnicity.
yeah. because that makes sense.
“Hey, don’t judge me for judging all blacks and asians!”
up next, “hypocritical liberal gays who are intolerant of the KKK’s intolerance”. right?
(sorry about the multiple posts.. not sure how that happened if any mods want to clean up.)
@littleKiwi: I think your video reinforces my point. What I’m saying is that it seems to be guys who are non-white, non-muscular, older, etc., who seem to have the biggest hang-ups. To put it another way, as a young, athletic white male, I don’t really think it’s all that crazy for me to be attracted to other young athletic white guys. I just don’t think this is some major issue. What I do think is a problem are, for example, guys who are 50+ who refuse to date anyone older than 30. That’s what’s crazy. Or an Asian guy who refuses to date other Asian guys, for example. They’re the ones who really seem to be suffering from a hang-up.
As for myself, I’ve noticed that I tend to like guys around my age. So, when I was 18, I was generally interested in hooking up with other 18 year olds.. now that I’m 25, I’m finding that I’m not really into the teenager thing so much as I want to meet other guys at the same level of maturity in their mid-20’s. I feel like, for as crazy as “society” can be sometimes.. I’m experiencing a fairly normal evolution of my sexual preferences over time. And while I’ll show respect to everyone, the fact of the matter is that I only ever find myself getting crushes on other athletic white guys. I have control over showing respect for people, and I ask to be judged on that point. I don’t really have control over who I’m attracted to, so I ask for people to back off on that point.
We all known that gay men are racist bullies who don’t have a kind bone in their body for anyone they don’t want to screw.
of course you don’t think it’s an issue. just like a lot of white people don’t think subversive racism in culture is still an issue. it doesnt’ affect THEM, therfore it’s not an issue, and you’ll choose to ignore those who are non-white who are saying “you know what? seeing people write NO ASIANS OR BLACKS” is a hurtful reminder of racism in out society.
you prove me right. you’re white and don’t see the problem.
yeah. and some straight people don’t see why gays “want more rights”, know what i mean?
” I don’t really have control over who I’m attracted to, so I ask for people to back off on that point.”
orientations are innate. concepts of attraction are societal.
I’m a white guy who is disgusted by guys with ethnic preferences and hangups. I think it’s pathetic, frankly. Are you into all white guys? No. To not be into any non-white guys only proves me right.
in trying to prove me wrong you only proved me right yet again. so thanks for that.
@mike: “people might have a biological tendency to be attracted to people from a similar ethnic background”
I disagree, I see a ton of Asians, blacks, and Latinos on dating sites but I have never seen someone demand “no whites” in their profile text. It seems as if the preference to date only one’s own race only applies to white guys, I haven’t really seen it any other way.
littlekiwi said: “you’ll choose to ignore those who are non-white who are saying “you know what? seeing people write NO ASIANS OR BLACKS” is a hurtful reminder of racism in out society.
you prove me right. you’re white and don’t see the problem.”
I said: “I agree that we should focus on positive language (what we want) instead of negative terms (“No X’s Y’s or Z’s…”)”
Who’s got the blinders on buddy? lol
I blogged about the “Douchebags of Grindr” website a little while back. While I agree that some of the attitudes displayed on dating sites are disturbing, the witch hunt mentality is also a cause for concern: http://bipolarbear.co.nz/2011/08/01/douchebags-of-grindr/
you get one point for correctly understanding that the language is hurtful, mike.
however, the reality is you weren’t “born” being solely into white guys. that’s societal. to suggest otherwise would be to suggest that a person born into a tribe in Africa could be “only into Asians” despite not even knowing that Asian people exist.
when one cannot see the person past the ethnicity, that person is proving that they’ve swallowed white-worship and accepted it. not all asians look the same. nor all black people. to not be into someone “because they’re black or asian” shows that all you can see is the ethnicity, not the individual.
if what turns you off is the person’s ethnicity then it takes a profoundly arrogant act of ego to not want to interrogate or challenge why that ethnicity is a turn off for you.
there’s no such thing as “i’m just not into Asians” – to boldly state you will not find people of an entire ethnic community attractive is, frankly, embarrassing.
@Little Kiwi: It’s a personal preference. What about those who only date interracially? Oh my gosh. We can’t legislate dating preferences so stop trying to politicize shit.
it’s already been politicized, Kev C. We’re just pointing it out while legions of gay white men bury their heads in the sand and continue to insist that their uninformed opinions are somehow intellectually valid.
we live in a white-worshipping, male-worshipping, straight-worshipping culture.
No Fats Femmes Asians or Blacks.
make the connection, boys.
nobody is talking about legislating dating preferences, we’re pointing that you guys who defend your limitations are actually the ones who allowing “what you like” to be dictated by OTHERS. They’re not YOUR choices, or preferences. You’ve been conditioned to be limited. It’s stunning by how proud of it some of you are.
It’s like when insecure gays try to act strong by not Coming Out and saying “You gay people can’t tell me what to do, you can’t FORCE me to Come Out!”
uh…why not? You’re already allowing a bigoted straight culture to “force” you to Stay In. Seriously. There’s no such thing as “forcing someone to Come Out” – that’s a projected excuse given by guys who refuse to acknowledge that they’re being forced to “Stay In” by those whose approval they’re still slaves to.
Change the context of the discussion. You can read about white men only being into other white persons for “aesthetic” or taste reasons in White Supremacist webpages or books and hopefully most of us would find it reprehensible. Why is it then, when the speaker is gay that the same rationale is any less racist? Sure it’s fine to fuck whatever you want, but what the article is pointing out (albeit more for educated audiences) is that those desires are implicated in a broader social context than it appears at surface.
this article seems to be a Reading Comprehension Litmus Test. Or in the very least a test for one’s ability to be intellectually honest.
sure. there’s nothing societal about “preferring white guys”. just as there’s nothing societal about internalized homophobia in gay men too, eh? you know, the gay guys who desperately don’t want people to be able to “tell” that they’re gay. yeah. that has nothing to do with a still very homophobic and prejudiced anti-gay culture. yeah. right. keep telling yourselves that.
I’m not on Grindr and I never will be. However, whats wrong with someone listing their preferences? I’m a white young professional, I watch what I eat and workout regularly…I’m also too interesting of a person to be swallowed up by the “scene”….so whats wrong if I want a white person that watches what they eat? I wouldnt have anything in common with a scene queen that drinks nightly and has a flabby body.
Also, we ALL know a TON of black, asian, and hispanic guys that will NOT date people of their own race. I think thats waaaay more weird then me wanting to date someone that has a similar lifestyle to mine.
So, let me just see if I got this.
I’m friends with guys of all races. I’m all for people dating and/or fucking whomever they want. I am not, in principle, against fucking black or Asian men MYSELF, but with very rare exception I am not attracted to them. I like them, I cherish their friendship as much as any one of my white, Latin, Indian, or Middle-Eastern friends. I will defend them to the death against anyone who gives them shit, but nine times out of ten, they just don’t make my dick hard. And that makes me a racist?
I think you need to get a new dictionary.
I dont see a problem with people being attracted to who they are….its when they go online and say “looking for friends only dont send a message for hook up.” But then go on to say NO…….. That is when its annoying and stupid. I will use myself for example. I have tried to be with black men. I think black men have beautiful beautiful bodies, but when it comes down to it, I just cant get “it” to work and not into it. At the same time when I was in high school I only dated black women. Weird..yes racist…not one bit. Just because someone is not into race, size whatever does not make them a bad person, its when they mask it as a perfence when it becomes sad.
Balls? That’s sexist, anti-woman hate speech. How dare you, sir.
I think people try to avoid experiencing a compounded sense of discrimination if they don’t have to. If one has the random luck to be born with attributes valued by society, to any degree, they tend to take the cookie and run with it. The counterpart of that is scapegoating others who can’t avoid carrying stigma, basically making them carry the shame for all of us collectively.
It’s idealistic to expect people who are closed off to broadening their experience to overcome their shame and fear just because it is pointed out to them. One of the things being gay should teach us, is that human beings can be attracted to and love each other in many ways that challenge narrow definitions of those words. It is perhaps forgivable that some people who say hurtful things don’t know themselves. But to actually get on a website and write “no [whatever attribute]” that you simply aren’t because of some genetic/cosmic lottery goes a step further, and is cruel and bigoted.
Every time people say something like that, they reveal their emotional smallness. I hope for your sakes you find yourself on the other side of this dynamic someday and you see the hurt that you inflict so casually on others.
For all the talk of bullying on here, for all the talk of acceptance…seriously?
If there are still people saying insensitive stuff to community members around them and putting walls between themselves, the chances are they are gonna lose out on new friendships, and relationships.
But honestly, are there really gay guys out there who are truly “straight-acting”? I live in Castro, and let me tell you, EVERYBODY QUEENS OUT ALL THE TIME. Does “no fems” mean I can’t wear my tight Diesel jeans, with a tanktop and an ear stud on my right ear? For me to be “straight-acting,” I should be in baggy khakis, sandals, and an unmatching stripe buttonup before I go see someone to have anal sex? I don’t think fucking another dude is considered by heteros as “straight-acting” either.
mike, if what turns of you off is their ethnicity then you clearly have an unaddressed, and by all means probably subconscious, issue with that ethnicity.
how can it not be about race when their race is the specific factor that turns you off?
you don’t want to be called racist? fine. you’re ethno-sexually stunted. there. if what turns of you off is the ethnicity then it’s staggering that you insist that you have no issue with that ethnicity. you can’t see the person, dude. you see “the asian-ness”. think about it.
JayKay: grow some balls. that’s not me being “anti-woman”, that’s me pointing out that you’re not a man, you’re a boy whose balls haven’t dropped.
@John: you claim not to be in the “scene” but you’ve wholly swallowed and adopted the haughty bullshit attitude of it rather perfectly. you’re so not a part of the scene that you’ve still adopted raciallu fuelled concepts of exclusivity. congrats. yeah. you’re not a scene-queen, yet you adopt the most negative aspects of them – namely a refusal to be interested in anythign that doesnt’ resemble yourself. you are, in effect, a Queen Without A Scene. kudos.
SO can anyone tell me………..HONESYLY, how was it in the 70s and 80s, and hell even 60s?????
When I came into the gay scene in the mid 90s it was already like this so has their ever honestly been a time when it was not like this with gay men?
@John: Hit the nail on the head buddy. There are a lot of people who just bring up this discussion so they can tell the world how terrible all gay white guys are. … Meanwhile, like you said, the strangest hang-ups seem to come from the kinds of guys you mention.
In the straight world, people tend to date within their race and it’s not such a huge deal. In the gay world, white guys tend to do the same. It seems to be non-white gays who are more of an exception to the rule. Shall we turn an unnecessary amount of scorn and judgement in their direction too (doubt it’ll happen)… or should we be helping these guys to see that there’s nothing wrong with two black guys going on a date. I honestly can’t think of the last time I’ve even seen or heard of two black guys openly dating each other. And it’s not because of any lack of gay black guys around the clubs I attend or the neighborhoods I live in. One of my best and dearest black gay friends has only ever dated white guys… and I feel like this is a pretty common trend. I wonder why?
you guys keep missing the point – white-worshipping culture, which we do indeed live in, doesn’t just affect non-white people. it affects you white boys, too.
yes, you’re conditioned to only see beauty in White, and so are far too many non-white people.
in typical Deluded Gay White Boy Fashion, however, you think your being white absolves you of having any part in it.
“One of my best and dearest black gay friends has only ever dated white guys… and I feel like this is a pretty common trend. I wonder why?”
Why wonder? The article talks about why. I’VE talked about why. Other posters have talked about why. You’re the one who keeps ignoring it. You’re only proving the rest of us right.
What’s most interesting about this hot-button topic is how adamantly some of you gays white boys are about showing people how strong your uninformed and factually incorrect opinions are. Keep it up.
Know what really gets me? Black girls who won’t date other black girls(same with men, but obviously my experience is with women who do this. I am sure this happens with gay men as well; I don’t understand it. I can find something gorgeous about women of all backgrounds. Its odd to me…like being racist against one’s own race.
Do I think this is the fault of sites like grindr? No. I think these people were already like this. What REALLY gets my blood boiling is the ones who say things like
“No fried chicken, dim sum, curry, on a strict diet. Straight acting, you be too.”
I mean, that is blatantly racist.
Simple. The internet is now the Darwinian meat market most gay bars used to be.
1995- You’re only two streets over? Lets fuck….
2011- Full body pic in 1st reply
@Little Kiwi: Everything you posted has been 100% right. Thank you for having a brain and actually using it.
Empathy is a great quality to have.
Equating testicles with manhood. Nice.
I see you hate your transgendered brothers and sisters as much as you hate women. You disgust me you privileged monster.
there’s such a “white rules” mentality that, yes, many non-white people feel an unforuntate need to “triumph over their ethnic shortcomings” by snagging a white boyfriend.
it doesn’t change the main thesis of this article.
it comes from the same sociological place of insecurity that leads far too many gay people to worship what they perceive to be “the appearance of heterosexuality”, or as i like to call it “passing for white”.
it’s stunning that in 2011 we still have gay men insecurely defending their right to be insecure in the face of a world that worships all things Straight White and Heterosexual, and insist that this culture hasnt’ in any way affected their concepts of what is beautiful, sexy or worthy.
“White boy” is hate speech by the way.
@Little Kiwi: visit a site called douchebagsofgrindr.com
in fact, all of you go there.
Why is the list so small? Shouldn’t we include, oh, I don’t know…how about no “wheelchairs” (that sounds particularly nice to reduce their personhood to the chair), no diabetes I, no four-eyes, no brown eyes, no red hair, no Jews…what else?
> Has Grindr Turned Gay Men Into Racist, Homophobic Body Fascists?
Oh, absolutely. Why, before Grindr, we’d go to bars and judge other men entirely on the content of their character.
@John: @Michael: @doublestandard: Will you all please just read every comment @Little Kiwi: has posted on this article? And fucking learn something… stop closing your eyes and plugging your ears. Learn something!
There’s a huge difference between saying someone is a white supremacist and saying they’re really only into white guys. Entirely different. You’re engaging in that overdramatic logic the right likes to take whenever they feel like “their” America is being threatened. Sexual preference, is just that…a preference. It isn’t necessarily a condemnation, hate speech or racist. Of course, of course some people use it for those means. There are always a few assholes to every group, but a vast majority of people are stating what they’re not interested in.
I’m latino, and I’m mainly into other latinos, perhaps white too but my choices are primarily based around background. I want to be with someone who understands my community. I don’t want to have to deal with the gay thing AND a culturally different thing. That’s my preference. There’s enough shit against me as it is, I’d rather not have another thing to fight about. I was raised in a hispanic home in the middle of a primarily white community. That’s the big thing, most of us are raised in a white community. I say that primarily because white people, as the majority, have given up their identity and it has been incorporated into the national identity. So American is the white identity in a big way. This is why, to me, going with white doesn’t seem as much of a cultural jump, because I was essentially raised by white culture.
Again, I can only speak for myself and my perceptions…but when I see other people profess their preferences in a neutral way, I take it as their preferences. I have black friends, and I harbor no ill will against anyone in the african american community. Same with asians, middle easterners, etc. In my day-to-day life I appreciate the differences but when it comes to sex, I want it to be easy. I don’t want surprises.
People who say they’re only into this group or that group aren’t into that ENTIRE group either. They will usually have a subset of that group that they prefer over others. Does that make them racist too? Say I only like redneck guys, and don’t like preppy guys or frat dudes, does that make me racist? No, it just makes me particular. That’s it. By saying I’m into this specific thing, I’m NOT saying everything else doesn’t deserve to be happy. Jesus people, you have to read racism into everything. Queerty knows it too, since every post they write about race blows up.
Let’s just not talk about relationships, let’s talk about hooking up, because this is what the majority of people here are doing. This is my criteria for hooking up: Light skin, dark hair, cute face and uncut. Now which groups would statistically have that? Thank you. See? No racism, just aesthetics. You like what you like, you don’t what you don’t…but you respect everyone because they all have a right to like what they like too.
And if you’re lucky, both your preferences will line up and you’ll get laid. That’s what “getting lucky” means.
I think what some people fall to realize, is that it’s not about what your preference is. It’s how people go about stating it. I have read many profiles online that state what they don’t want, would it not be easier to say what you do want. If your profile says whites only so be it. But when you go off and say no Blacks, Asians, Latinos, and etc. That’s to much. Or if you use other descriptors like, no fried chicken, or rice, or beans to state what you don’t like is not the best way to go about it. It crosses the line to offensive when it’s unnecessary. I know for me I do not see people based on their skin color. Maybe its because I grew up in a environment where there has always been a variety of ethnic groups. My best friends were White, Black, Latino and Asian. As of this day I still do not have a preference for the ethnicity of who I would date. To me the skin color or shape of their eyes is trivial when there are so much more to be had when one is in the market for love. Sure sexual attraction is important, but you have to look at what makes you sexual attracted to someone. I know it’s not just skin color. But some people make that their first criteria before even trying to get to know someone for who they are and not what they are.
” You like what you like, you don’t what you don’t…but you respect everyone because they all have a right to like what they like too.”
You like what you like because you’ve been conditioned to like it by society. it’s not actually what YOU like – it’s what you’ve been sold. you think you’re being a solid individual by defending your “preferences” but the reality is that your preferences have already been made FOR you and you’re refusing to acknowledge it.
you’re essentially allowing society at large to tie one hand behind your back. and then you’re saying you choose it.
@redmont: Look at @Little Kiwi: comments and learn something. Thanks.
the proof is in the pudding. ever hear a guy say “well, i like MIXED guys”
yeah. exactly. it’s not “totally ethnic”, it’s like …you know…like a SLIGHLTY more exotic white guy. like foreign food that’s been watered down to not taste “so darn ethnic and scary”
i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again, if what turns you off is the person’s ethnicity then you have an unaddressed and perhaps subconscious issue with that ethnicity.
you can’t say “i’m not into him because he’s asian” and then claim that you have no issue with asians.
How many sociologists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
I’m better than you.
@Gay Veteran: I did. That’s exactly why I wrote my comment. People like Little Kiwi are why dumb wankbaiting articles like this get written, and why everyone says that if you don’t love everyone equally then you’re a racist/sexist/homophobe/etc. It’s annoying and it’s frustrating. You’ll never win unless you say everything is fucked, offer no way to fix it, and live your life angry at the world for every time someone didn’t get told they shit out rainbows and sunshine. Reality is a vastly different place.
Well, this is a discussion that needed to be had.
Good points being made on both sides of this argument, but I must say I lean more toward the belief that the folks who “just aren’t attracted to (insert entire race here)…” might benefit from some examination into why that is. Not a judgment, per se, but I think it might be an enlightening experience + an opportunity for personal growth.
I’ve never been all that narrow in my preferences: My tastes in men are as varied as my tastes in music (lanky, burly, older, younger, any race, pale guys, tan guys, dark features, redheads, muscles, average bodies, hairy, smooth, tats, no tats, + so on). It really all depends on the particular guy + whether I find him attractive. While I don’t really understand saying I don’t find an entire ethnic group of men attractive, I don’t judge it. I just don’t relate to it.
What is there to learn? fill me in because I have read it and I guess I am missing it. As I said……..I HAVE BEEN WITH BLACK MEN, I also STRICTLY DATED BLACK WOMEN. I dont know why, but one did it for me the other does not. What am I suppose to do try to fuck any dark skin male with until my dick cooperates?
At the same time MOST OF MY FRIENDS ARE BLACK.As are MOST EVENTS I go to. So tell me what I am missing?
In all my 25 years, I’ve never felt accepted by the gay community. Its OK now, but when I was younger, I really struggled. I would get on sites and see how everyone wanted the same. No blacks, Asians, or whatever else. I always felt I had to be something else. I don’t know if it was my own insecurities but I cant fault them. They want, what they want. I’ve never had any real preferences and always thought we were above all the prejudices, since we all deal with it as a group.
Whatever the case, its been a long time! Any takes?! Preference free! :D
Why is it so much to ask of people to examine their own motivations? This is a racially charged society, has been for a very long time and continues to be. It would be more anomalous for gay men (of all colors) to not be impacted by racism than it is to say gay men are racist. There is no one person who has not been impacted by racism in this country, in one way or another, to whatever degree you feel is appropriate. That is my point. You only learn to not be racist from experiencing difference directly. What does it mean when you or any one person refuses to do so, in the most intimate of means?
You’re right. I’m “dumb” for not having any ethnic limitations and you’re smart for having many. Congratulations.
There is a way to “fix it”, it’s been mentioned many times. it all starts with accepting sociological realities of our culture, and interrogating yourself and your feelings and stances.
what’s annoying and frustrating to people like redmont is that they’re unwilling, or incapable, of doing it.
i’m dumb for not having ethnic limitations and he’s smart for having a lot of them. yeah. right ;-)
it’s not even saying “love everyone” – it’s saying “think first about the words you use, and then really think about why you are so quick to dismiss entire ethnic groups of people”
i do love, however, the complainers who are single. we’ve all seen them online. “Why can’t i get a boyfriend? where are all the decent guys? i just want a great guy to share my life with. btw, no fats fems asians or blacks”
well, that’s why you’re single and you can’t get a decent guy. you’re not one yourself and thus don’t deserve one.
ten bucks says you won’t be off “white guys” after a “bad experience” with one or two more white guys, so why are you already so quick to write off BLACK GUYS due to “bad experiences”??
what you’re saying makes no sense. “oh, i was with blacks guys before and didn’t like it”
right. so it had nothing to do with them being individuals, it had to do with them being black. RIIIIIIIGHT.
like i said, how many bad experiences with white guys will it take before you swear off whites for the rest of your online-dating search life?
@michael92: You’re looking at sites. I can guarantee you if you went to a club or a bar, you wouldn’t have been waiting all that long to get laid.
being online makes it easy for people to be impersonal, state their preferences, etc. but realistically, you would’ve probably been fine if you’d have ventured out and interacted with people. I really don’t want to sound like an asshole. I’m sure you’re a nice guy, and I’m sure if I met you in real life you’d be a blast and a half. Honestly, to some degree I still don’t feel really accepted by the gay community, but I stopped caring about that a few years ago and it really helped me out. I’m nowhere near perfect, and neither is anybody else. That’s what makes life worthwhile :D
“You like what you like because you’ve been conditioned to like it by society”
That is obviously BS. If our attractions were determined by society’s conditioning then we’d all be attracted to the opposite sex.
I find men of all races attractive, but far more often men of my own race. We all know that you can’t force yourself to be attracted to someone if you’re not. If we could do that then we could all be attracted to the opposite sex.
Gay men have always been body fascists. However, we are really not much different from any other male. We have our fetishes just like anybody else.
Really? you really think I have not had experiences with white guys?
I never said the black guys did something bad to me. The physical attraction was not there.
Why is that so hard to believe? The body of one individual was one of the nicest I ever seen in my life. But at the end of the day, and I dont know why it so hard to understand, it was just not my cup of tea. It was also go for older heavy set white men. Bad experience or not, they are just not my cup of tea, I dont see what is wrong with that. Now if either would like to hang out, walk the piers, hang at a ball, go dancing I am all 100% for it, but I am sorry no bedroom action will be happening afterwards
“That is obviously BS. If our attractions were determined by society’s conditioning then we’d all be attracted to the opposite sex. I find men of all races attractive, but far more often men of my own race. We all know that you can’t force yourself to be attracted to someone if you’re not. If we could do that then we could all be attracted to the opposite sex.”
it’s actually the truth, and you’re simply showing that you don’t actually know that much about sociology. Orientations are innate. Concepts of attraction are societal.
Society’s conditioning won’t make you attracted to the opposite sex, but it will indeed affect what you deem attractive in the same sex, and indeed how you feel about yourself, and others, as a gay man.
It’s not about “being forced to be attracted to someone that you’re not” but addressing the reality that your concepts of attraction have already been dictated to you – you’re not mainly into whites “because you just are” but because that’s what society has dictated to you. you’re already ‘forced’ to be limited by greater society.
but you’re already confusing orientations and concepts of attraction. learn to understand that they’re entirely different first. Until then you’ll have no idea what you, or others, are talking about.
@Little Kiwi: lmao you’re totally right about the desperate single guys who still put on limitations. I’ve seen those myself and thought something along the same lines as you. Beggars can’t be choosers. I’ve always thought about sex as food. If you’re in the buffet of food that is life, its okay to be a little picky. Eat only what you like and have as much of it as you’d like…but if your tastes are so particular that you can’t find what you like…then hoorah for being hard to please. Starve or try something new.
@doublestandard: +1 internets for you
I agree with you 100000% here. I really do wish I was attracted to everyone and thats the honest to god truth, a hoes point of view but more options to get laid…but I am not and it sucks
Teh gay guys who dont sleeps with the black men are the tip of the iceberg!
Some of these evil gay bastards won’t even sleep with the WOMENS!!!
How fucking prejudicial is that!???
What are they fucking mysoginistsitsts ot sumfink!!???
we’ve all heard the excuses. “Oh, i tried it with a black guy and i didn’t like it, so i’m not into black guys”
yeah. right. and yet a few hundred lousy hookups with a white guy won’t make him swear off white guys.
some of us are hip to the fact that EXCUSES and REASONS are two very different things.
for a more pubic display.
@Lefty: orientations are innate and concepts of attraction are societal.
thanks for proving, once again, that those who disagree are simply showing how much they don’t know. oh, the passion some of you have for your utterly uninformed and uneducated opinions.
@Little Kiwi: Do you ever shut the fuck up?
@Lefty: it’s not my fault that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
i won’t apologize for being smarter than someone. you shared an opinion that proved how little you know about this subject.
that aint my fault.
Kiwi….who said one, two, three or even a threesome????
Yes I done it. So how much many more times do I need to…it was not for me
@Little Kiwi: “orientations are innate and concepts of attraction are societal.”
Do you even read some of the shit you post!?
Seriously, if you’re going to post endlessly on every fucking article on this entire site could you at least post sentences that aren’t utter drivel.
Thank you. :)
And just to take a step back for a minute… I actually think it’s kind of funny how people try to go after gay guys for being “body fascists” because we tend to go to the gym more often, and appreciate being physically fit.
Meanwhile, heart disease is the number one killer of Americans, and obesity is the main factor. Sixty-eight percent of American adults are overweight or obese and people think gay guys are terrible for hitting up the gym on a regular basis. mad lolz. … maybe we should call straight people “fat fascists” because that’s a problem that’s actually killing people.
Mainly white gay men were already that way.
On the next Oprah Winfrey: Vegans who discriminate against Big Macs.
This is what I think on this matter and I is a expert as I has thort about this for 10 minutes or less and has read a bit on wiki…
@Lefty: once again, you proved me right Lefty.
you don’t want a fact to be a fact. congrats. you’re not that different from Rick Santorum. You have a chosen opinion which can only be maintained by ignoring factual sociological realities. You’re officially every anti-gay person in America with that mindset.
@doublestandard – and how many lame sexual experiences with white guys will it take for you to suddenly decide that you’re no longer into white people? a few bad hookups with black guys puts you off black guys for life? amazing.
so what you’re not into is that they’re black? if you’re not into them because they’re black then how is that not reflective of an issue you have with regard to their ethnicity? if the problem is that they’re black then you have an issue with that ethnicity. duh.
this is the beauty of this type of debate – it’s uninformed opinions VS sociological realities.
you guys are about as sexually hip and “with it” as my grandmother. she’s in her late 90s, by the way.
IMHO the number of gay men the are terrible at sex is astronomical. Many are good at getting off and moving on quickly. Sharing intimacy is scorned and letting yourself be vulnerable is strictly verboten. I can’t count the number of gay men I know that can not identify what they really want out of a sexual experience other than possibly get off or to be penetrated. They know absolutely nothing beyond the mechanics of the sex act and many are even piss poor at that.
IMHO the number of gay men that are terrible at sex is astronomical. Many are good at getting off and moving on quickly. Sharing intimacy is scorned and letting yourself be vulnerable is strictly verboten. I can’t count the number of gay men I know that can not identify what they really want out of a sexual experience other than possibly get off or to be penetrated. They know absolutely nothing beyond the mechanics of the sex act and many are even piss poor at that.
@doublestandard: I think he’s saying you need to have sex with people you don’t find attractive coz like attraction is a societal concept dude and like even if the guy is pig ugly you’s got to fuck him coz even the ugly guy’s human too y’know? :'(
Everyone is entitled to their…ahem…”preferences” (no matter how narrow or bigoted they are), but there is something called tact. Singling out groups of people to NOT contact you is the height of pretentiousness and is nothing but people trying to flex their stupid superiority complex.
Let’s say you have a skinny white boy fetish…and some skinny white boy contacts you, and literally has all the :::RME::: ‘aesthetics’ you normally like…but, for whatever reason, you still find him unattractive. What do you do? You say ‘No thank you’ and move on to the next match. What is so hard about doing that when it comes to overweight guys, or men who fit the race/ethnicity you have a suspicious bias against?
If you’re not attracted to Asians or Black men, then you’re not…but who told you that it was okay to voice that out loud? There are ‘types’ I’m generally not attracted to either, but would never actually say it. Why? Two reasons: A) Because it’s rude. B) I’m not narrow-minded enough to think that just because I haven’t been particularly turned on by __________ that no one of said group could ever be attractive to me.
How are people not getting this?
If an Asian or Black men happens to approach you, then what the hell is so difficult about saying ‘No thank you’ and moving on like you would a guy who fits all your desired traits, but still doesn’t do it for you? As if you’re going to be bombarded with Black and Asian men. Please. Get over yourself.
This is about people with a bigoted aversion to other groups and having the desire to be aggressive about it in an attempt to feel bigger in the moment — using their ‘right’ to their own ‘preferences’ as a not-so-covert way of expressing their bigotry, and thinking that they can get away with it.
So for that reason alone, I say bravo to the guy who started that Douchebags of Grindr site. It turns the tables nicely.
@Lefty: apparently not until everyone agrees and says YES I AM A MINDLESS DRONE OF SOCIETY AND LITTLE KIWI IS SO ENLIGHTENED AND SHOWED ME THE WAY BECOME THE KIND OF PERSON THAT ISN’T INTERESTING, AND IS A SLUT FOR EVERYONE AND ANYTHING WITH A WHOLE (that is, until the people who don’t have holes start to complain about being left out).
@doublestandard: @Little Kiwi: is not saying you have to date black men(or any other race). He’s saying you need to acknowledge why you like what you like. The fact that our society considers ‘white’ to be the standard of beauty has a lot to do with why you like what you like. Why do you think guys post “white and latin guys only” on social profile… those two races are the closest things to this ideal white beauty.
Failing to acknowledge why you like what you like and why it’s problematic is the issue.
i’m saying two things.
1. the language one uses online can indeed contribute to the already prevalent racial prejudices that still exist in society. why defend the use of “no blacks or asians”? What does that actually accomplish?
2. orientations are innate. concepts of attraction and beauty are societal. they evolve and change with the times, culture to culture, era to era. we live in a world culture that worship White Heterosexual Males (with money) over all else. “no fats femmes asians or blacks” – make the connection.
Lefty, you’re just making yourself look like a complete idiot. We’re talking about folks who brush off entire ethnic groups, basically saying “y’all blacks are the same to me” and you say “you’re making me fuck ugly people”
that’s you being a willfully ignorant dunce who either has limited reading comprehension skills or simply isn’t bright.
people who sit here defending their limited preferences of ethnicity are the ones who have actually “Been Told” what to find attractive. you’ve allowed society and culture to make the choice for you, and you sit here pretending it’s your own choice. it aint.
and ten bucks says you couldn’t get fucked if you fell ass-first onto a cock factory.
exactly. thank you for being intelligent. it’s clear that this piece is a real test of reading comprehension skills for many men. you get it. they don’t. you’re smart. they’re clearly not.
“Once again by showing how ridiculous I am you be proving me right!
You’re just a self-hating homophobia gayman!!
Feel the girth of my debating skills!!
Now read my blog…
Race and online hookups. This is going to be a neverending source of sex politics.
Look, I’m an Asian of a certain age. Even before the Intertoobs, it’s been clear to me that race is just one more dimension to make gay-dating an exponentially stratified headache.
For ever ‘no Asian’ profile out there, there’s at least one self-identified ‘Rice queen’ ready to jet off and indulge in every offensive stereotype imaginable.
This intersection of identity politics between race and sexuality existed long before Grindr, and it’s likely to outlast it. Remember print personal ads? There’s an immediacy to Grindr (and its ilk) that just makes it feel more up-front.
Oh good. We’re talking andlessly about sex tastes without addressing the gay obsession with looks over character. It’s not about who you’re attracted to. It’s about treating those you aren’t like dirt.
redmont, not having “racial limitations” doesn’t mean “you fuck everything”
for example, I dont’ have ANY racial limitations. i do, however, have racist ones. as in, i wont’ fuck a racist.
you’re free to not have sex guys with from ______ ethnic group, and i’m free to not have sex with guys with racial hangups. just as i’d never hook up with a closet case, as i like my men to actually have balls.
not having ethnic limitations doesn’t mean you’re a slut who fucks everything. it means that you don’t discriminate based on ethnicity. it’s amazing how this concept is lost on the plebes.
@SBC19 I agree with you, everyone is entitled to their individual preference. What it boils down to tact. I will respond to every message I get online, if I am not interested I will say so in a matter that is respectful. My issue is with people who show little regard for others. Based on how they respond to people or how they state their dislikes in their ads on these sites. It’s easy to just say you don’t like certain things, what people need to be more aware of is how they go about saying it.
People who are using a phone app to find random sex can be however racist or hateful as they want because they’re already gross for using an app to find random sex.
@Little Kiwi: “and ten bucks says you couldn’t get fucked if you fell ass-first onto a cock factory.”
You post on here all the time, dear.
I don’t know what the fuck it is you think you’re doing, but you ain’t getting fucked.
You still can’t help the macho bullshit, can you?
You try way too hard. :(
@WillBFair: APPLAUDS WILLBFAIR.
while one my defend their preferences and say they’re not racist, i have a hard time thinking that someone who writes “no blacks or asians” in a profile is anything but a racist. like, heaven forbid your precious time is wasted on fuckin’ Grindr because some “Ethnic Guy” sends you a complimentary message.
@SBC19: You’re right that everyone has a right to have their preferences, but they also have a right to state what they are. If I put myself out there as wanting to mingle, I don’t want to get contacted unless it’s likely something will come of it. I don’t like wasting my time, and I don’t think other people do either. There’s no need to internalize something just to spare someone else’s feelings. If you feel that way, then say it and save everyone some time that can be used for much more fun activities.
Given the circumstances (hooking up), I don’t think you really need to take anyone’s feelings into consideration. This isn’t an event like a funeral or a relationship where other people’s feelings are on the line.
There are many positives to gaining a thick skin. Not letting someone else’s preferences validating you or your sexual attractiveness is one of them.
Lefty, it aint my fault that you don’t know what you’re talking about and I do. you can’t be angry that other people are smarter than you. you can only fault yourself for being uneducated.
@Andre: I guess I’m an asshole. Which I’m fine with, cuz I believe it’s probably true. I didn’t know people actually got hurt when other people didn’t respond to them online. I didn’t think it was that big a deal to people.
I mean, I don’t troll for sex anymore, but if I did I don’t think I’d change my behavior. I dunno, something about me having deal with other people’s emotions when I just want to get laid bothers me. I can do it in a relationship because I care immensely about my boyfriend so it just comes naturally but when I’m single I don’t want to deal with that.
But at least we do agree that everyone is entitled to their preferences without being labeled a racist/whatever. We all have them, and I think it’s dumb to pretend we don’t. You guys take the nice guy route which I commend you for, really…but I, I take the more direct route because that’s my personality. Luckily, I’m not in the scene any more so that’s one less asshole to deal with :)
If you look at representations of Venus in paintings and sculptures realized during the Renaissance, you’ll notice that they all depict a very curvy woman with thicker thighs, stronger hips and fuller arms. She was the representation of feminity, a standard of beauty, the depiction of what straight men found most attractive back then. If, let’s say, Donatello was to sculpt a statue representing Venus nowadays, in all likelyhood the result would be very different: she would be much more toned, have smaller hips and thighs, would be taller, etc. That is because the “standard” of female beauty has evolved since then and what straight men find most desirable has evolved as well. If we just look back a few decades ago, Marilyn Monroe was the paramount of female beauty yet in today’s world, she would feel the need to reduce some of her curves.
Yet, since then, I do not believe that the genetic makeup of Western men has changed so that they automatically find thinner women more beautiful. As someone implied earlier, orientation is immuable but preferences aren’t. They are impacted by society and what it promotes as a definition of “beautiful”.
I am absolutely not saying that some of the guys here are racists. I’m sure that they have no problem at befriending Asians, Blacks, etc. However, the belief that one is predestined to be attracted only to a specific ethnicity is unfortunate. Unfortunate because when these uncouncious preferences, in large part promoted by society, continue to go unchallenged, many gays dramatically limit their choices of potential life partners.
In other words, I do not want to imply that some gays are bad people because they only want to date people who look like them. Rather, I am clumsily trying to say that by doing so, they limit their chances to find hapiness.
@ Little Kiwi – Thank you for your insightful comments, especially considering the fact that you are a white male. Not many white males, especially gay white males, know or understand the concept of WHITE PRIVILEGE, how it benefits them (& oftentimes to the detriment of non-whites) AND how society is constructed to perpetuate the importance & power of white people.
Online dating is 1 of the few routes we have in the gay community to meet potential partners. As a gay Asian man, it seems like a MAJORITY of white gay males have CATEGORICALLY EXCLUDED me SOLELY on the basis of my race. It makes me feel like shit. But what’s even worse is white gay males either dismissing the issue or trying to rationalize their racism (yes, you don’t have to be a skin head or a member of a white supremacist organization to be racist).
I ask you gay white males out there who claim it’s just a “preference,” that society has little/no effect on what you view as attractive: if CATEGORICALLY EXCLUDING people of a certain race isn’t racist, is an employer publicly refusing to hire gay people homophobic???
In addition, a lot of gays (erroneously) blame minorities for the passage of antigay laws, while also chiding gay people of color for not educating their straight peers. If gay people of color don’t feel accepted by the “gay community” (read: white gay community), we’re less inclined to combat the homophobia in our respective communities. What’s the point if the result is being an outcast from the 2 main communities that you identify with???
I know what a losing battle it is to educate the ignorant, but please continue to fight the good fight.
Oh by the way, you lost an hours pay with the 10 bucks comment.
How many do I need?
It was me not into it, so tell me whats the magic number? Had nothing to do with the sex but more to do with the physical of the person
Oh how cute, you believe in white privilege.
And what would you like Santa Claus to bring you this year?
@david: I know plenty of guys who go for fat girls/guys – you’re confusing fashion and concepts of ‘beauty’ with what ordinary people are sexually attracted to.
There are so many rhetorical leaps, generalisations and outright nonsense being spouted in this thread.
I think this just about sums up the comments…
“Listening to gays complain about “liberals” or “leftists” is like listening to Anne Frank complain about attics.”
Yeah, that’s what it’s like, isn’t it? That’s EXACTLY what it’s like.
Listening to some gay people on a news website debating the preferences of men who are looking for a fuck is in some way comaparable to one of the most tragic stories of the 20th Century, that of a little girl murdered along with her entire family in the Holocaust.
How terribly accurate and how witty.
I defer to your clearly superior intellect…
Well I can honestly say my online profiles never exclude anyone..as I said I will go meet and hang out with ANYONE regardless of age, race, gender, trans whatever….you make me laugh i make you laugh, you have a friend for life. If people can not accept that, well guess to bad.
@Joetx: The concept of white priviledge is a theory and a disprovable one. The “priviledge” doesn’t exist for whites in a non-white environment. In that way, it’s no different than any other social identification pattern. Asian countries are mono-cultures and benefit from being asian within their own culture. Same for africans or latinos.
@david: I agree with everything you said.. except I do want to say they’re bad people. If they walking away from this article the same uninformed mess they were before… then I do think they’re bad people.
They’re bad and ignorant people.
By the way I like how the article and all subsequent comments focus solely on white men, while paying no attention to non-whites who only date “men of colour.”
I have a question for those of you who insist that this is all preference and should never be questioned:
What’s your explanation for the near universal preference for white men on hookup/dating sites? I’ve never seen someone explicitly say “no whites” but I see “no asians” and “no blacks” all the time, in some cases black/asian/latino men will even state a preference for white men over their own race. If there’s no societal explanation for this, how do you explain it other than concluding that whites are just objectively more attractive?
@Joetx: I agree with what you say about white privilege but what are people supposed to do if they aren’t attracted to someone who looks a certain way (skin colour, body weight, hair colour etc)?
You can’t force people to be attracted to what they are not and doesn’t it just save everyone time if they’re upfront about their preferences from the outset?
I knew a guy once who only dated girls who looked like his Mother – who was thin, white with brown hair… and so were the vast majority of his girlfriends.
He wasn’t racist or fattist or against women with ginger hair; he just really, really wanted to fuck his mother. What can you do? :(
How bout the fact that Grindr is disgusting anyway? Of course it’s going to attract the douchebags. It’s also going to attract the closet cases.
Is normal dating and meeting people really that hard for most gays? I’ve done just fine with it. What Grindr is doing is brewing sex addicts. People who want sex and want it now and will get it with Grindr. People will forget how to really connect with one another and they will eventually feel like shit about their habits.
I have talked to so many guys who literally have daily sex with a random thanks to Grindr. Its like a drug and they need a hit.
Now don’t get me wrong… I love sex. I would love to have sex everyday, but I don’t “need” too. In fact, once or twice a week with someone who I am geniuine interested is just fine. The wait and the build up makes for a great session of heat and passion and when I have sex, it’s always good.
There’s a film called Shame coming out about sex addiction and I’m sorry to say this but it represents many in the gay community.
And the “no fems” thing. Some of us are “straight acting”. I grew up hanging out with straight males and I still hang out with straight males. They know I am gay, they invite my boyfriend or whomever I am interested in at the time (if I am single) to hang out and we all get along great. I am not attracted to a feminine acting guy. Theres nothing wrong with them, I have some gay friends who are more on the feminine side. But it’s not just who I am, it’s not who I will ever be, and it’s not what I am attracted to. It’s hard to tell if someone is “fem” by their photo…. I feel like theres this divide in the gay community between the “fems” and the “staight acting”. It needs to go, it’s seriously misguided and we need to stop focusing on our differences. We will all hang out and have sex? Probably not. But we can be kind to one another and accepting of your differences. “Fems” are the way they are and “straight acting” guys most of the time just are that way, not trying to “hide” anything. I am more out and open about my sexuality than some of the “fems” I know.
I don’t have a Grindr. Never will. I enjoy meeting people the old fashioned way insteaded of whoring myself out. I understand some people actually use it to meet people and date and all that, and thats great. But the majority just want to get laid easily and so Grindr is there addiction. It’s a pretty poor relfection on our community. We can express our sexuality without being whores.
I see a large number of posts from Latinos and Blacks stating THEIR preference only for some one of their own or another specific ethnicity. Yet, whenever these articles come out (and don’t they just seem to every two days or so?) it’s always targeting the Shamerator 5000 on white guys. I have my preferences and I enjoy them. I’ve shopped around, tasted the selection, and I’ve settled down into the types of guys I like. The types who turn me on. I don’t get turned on by someone’s “aura” or “creative spirit” when I want to fuck, so we can shut that BS up right now. I want nasty, sweaty, hot, rutting pig sex with a guy that turns me on VISUALLY. No shame in it and I refuse to be made to somehow feel guilty about it. The bitchers and whiners are the ones with the problem: the sheer refusal to accept that some people aren’t going to be attracted to you. I can only assume that a large segment of these complainers are of the everybody wins a trophy generation and the poor upbringing has left them incapable of handling such realities.
@Joe: I agree that sex addiction is a real problem and the hook-up sites definitely do make it easier but for me grindr and the like are a godsend. If I want to meet guys the usual way I’d have to set aside a night to go to a bar/club and buy drinks etc. It’s nice to be able to talk to people a few minutes at a time throughout the day and eventually meet, it’s very convenient. Everyone has their own way of meeting people, there’s no reason to put down others who do it differently.
Grindr is what you make of it. It’s not just used for sex, even though some people insist that it is. It’s a time-killer for some, it’s also one more outlet for actually connecting with like-minded people. It’s all about what you say in your profile and how you USE the medium. Heck, one can get a booty-call from facebook (poking, anyone?). I got laid after a church service once.
And no self-respecting gay man uses the term “straight-acting” – that’s entirely the domain of the insecure and resentful homosexual who only finds security in his gayness by telling himself (and his lameass buddies) how “straight” he thinks he appears.
There’s no such thing as “straight-acting” – there are only clueless homosexuals who dont’ understand diversity and attain a false sense of security by telling themselves that they’re “like straight people.”
grow some orbs.
what i find interesting is that so many of these comments seem to hinge on the idea that a person can only be “open-minded, non-racist (liberal)” or “KKK-esque racist.” this is a huge problem as any sort of in-between appears out of the question. i think that one can be prejudiced — whether consciously or, more likely, unconsciously — on the basis of race (or any other markers of difference) while not simultaneously appearing or being openly hateful towards that particular group. i agree with much of what Little Kiwi has said because our culture is predominantly, though covertly, “white-worshipping” – for lack of better words.
the article is attempting to elucidate on the matter of what a gay online culture, though by no means the whole of what it means to be gay or other gay cultures, appears to find attractive/acceptable in sex partners. one has to contextualize what this may mean by analyzing what American society finds (sexually) attractive and pleasurable in others AND the ways in which American culture still discriminates/finds lack of pleasure in people of color, femme-acting gays, etc. one may also try to reach a little further and analyze how American racial/ethnic/gender,etc.-hate and/or prejudice affects individual desires.
i also happen to love the book that mattilda bernstein sycamore edited, that’s revolting: queer strategies for resisting assimilation. again, i’m just saying.
how about those white guys who are good at violin and math and are thus “Asian Acting”
or those black guys who read lots of books and are thus “white acting”
see how inane that sounds? straight-acting sounds just as stupid.
at what point are people goign to realize that one can be Visibly and Identifiably GAY without being “feminine”? You can be obviously gay and not “femme” – conversely there are guys who are still noticeably or visibly heterosexual who may emnody certain characteristics mostly associated with females.
but enough with this straight-acting bullshit. it’s a stupid and meaningless phrase. know what saying “straight-acting” does? it brews self-shame, where homosexual men only find security in telling themselves how “not gay” they are.
real secure gay men don’t pride themselves in their ability to “pass for straight” to straight people. you can be visibly and identifiably gay without being “fem” and some of you guys need to realize this.
for example, this wimp: http://littlekiwilovesbauhaus.blogspot.com/2011/09/carrying-self-hatred-into-adulthood.html
@Gay Veteran: read Kiwi’s comment and learn something. Learn how to not appreciate what another person might think like. And then condemn them. Maybe you should read those comments and learn something.
scott ny’er, right. because that makes sense. learn how not appreciate how others are incapable of apprectiating entire groups of people based on their ethnicity.
like i said, the beauty of this whole “debate” is that it’s Uninformed Opinions arguing with Sociolgical Realities.
You’re all entitled to your own opinions, you’re not entitled to your own facts. everyone on here “arguing” against the reality of society influencing preferences is making a giant fool of themselves – you’re arguing with sociological reality because you dont’ like it. that’s like Rick Santorum arguing against LGBT Equality – you have an opinion, but not one you can actually back up. Congrats.
i’m so intolerant of people who think all blacks and asians look the same, and are universally unappealing. how closed-minded of me for not accepting their closed-mindedness.
@Little Kiwi: If you’re waiting for asians and blacks to pin a good citizen medal on you, it won’t happen. Ever.
Look at the Quakers. They started the Underground Railroad. They risked their homes and lives to rescue runaway slaves and never recieved a single Thank You. And who gets the credit? Harriet Tubman.
@Little Kiwi: Can you point me to the facts of which you speak which lead you to your conclusions, please?
Cause I can’t see any facts mentioned in any of your posts. Just broad assertions, accusations and a staggering amount of horseshit. :(
There’s an expression: hurt people hurt people.
It’s a shame how much we LGBTs go on about “It Gets Better” and all the anti-bullying stuff when LGBTs cut eachother down so much.
Whenever I see these profiles I imitate conversation asking guyswhey they write offensively as if they were anti-gay.
Instead of writing “no fats, no fems, no old people, no Asians” why not instead write “I am looking for in-shape, masculine, young, white (or whatever race) guys.”
Also, when I see profiles with “no fems” (or things like that) in profiles, I hit the guy up and tell him “Thanks! More fems for me!”
Meh. This is a small percentage of the world’s gay population. Sure they are the most visible but in reality, many of them are looking for the self that they can finally love.
Problem is, they don’t love themselves and are on an endless quest to find the “4same” that they believe will make them whole, or the person they wish they were.
That’s all there is to it, it isn’t a big mystery
For those it bothers that deeply, don’t stress. There are more than enough of us out here that you’ll find what you are looking for, eventually–what this is, however, you’d better know before it catches you off guard.
For our youger generations though, it can be life-threatening and we need to watch how we represent ourselves to them carefully.
I put “straight acting” in quotes because we are arguing the same thing. It’s a term that gets thrown onto guys who aren’t as outwardly gay in the stereotypical sense. I don’t consider myself to actually be straight acting because I am not. I am as gays everyone in the gay community. I just have a differently personality from the stereotypes. It’s just th e way I am. I came out in high school, my family accepted me, there were actually no issues. Some bullying yeah, but all of my friends stood by me and the people that said stuff about me, well it was all true. I do suck dick and I do take it up the ass. Fuck them. Because I was so sincere about it all, many of the people who gave me shit ended up deeply respecting me.
I am as gay as any other gay dude. I just have a more masculine personality, and generally get along with straight guys better due to my own interests. That being said, I have very open with them and we do actually talk about my sex life, and being gay in general. Geniune friends will always be interested and listen, regardless of orientation.
Sorry, I do get a little worked up over this issue cause I had an ex that would get seriously jealous over me hanging out with straight guys. It was a huge problem for him and it’s really unfortunate. While he was more feminine, we really hit it off. For some reason he just thought I was “hiding my gayness”… even though I was out to my whole family and he was not. My family met him several times, I never met his (though I did get to “see” them at this graduation). All this and he was older than me…
I am not the defending the “no fems” douchebags on grindr, but just saying, some of us arent “acting straight”, were just different than you.
@Matt – I know, some guys really do use it just to meet and make friends, and thats great. I am glad it works for them. I am speaking of the other half that uses it purely for sex.
I don’t think the “language used” point is a valid one. There is no nice way to say that you are summarily rejected because of something not in your control. Personally, I never believed in limiting myself. I enjoy meeting and being with people who are different than me. It gives you something more to talk about than how hot each other are.
“No Blacks” on your Grindr ad is a racist statement. Make no mistake about that.
I get that we all have our wonder Asian and Black friends, and I get that not all of them get you hot and bothered. But you cannot go out there and say, “no Blacks.” What if your Black friend saw this profile, how would he feel? Gee, just a couple decades ago, we had similar signs in front of the restaurants and bars. I completely understand that Asian guys or Black guys can’t make your dick hard, but you need to be sensitive about how you channel your message of disinterest to fellow Asian and Black community members around you. It doesn’t matter what your “sexual preference” is, saying anything about that in regards to race is perceived as racism.
Trust me, if you went on national television and said, “I am a queer but I don’t like no black queers, nor Asian queers,” you would have protesters outside your house under 2 hours.
To expand on what Little Kiwi is saying about orientation and attraction, I have to add this: people are generally hardwired to be attracted to power. The connections to power get weaker the further down in traits you have to god down to determine power, but it generally goes like this. People with power are powerful. People with power tend to be white. People with money also tend to be white. People with educations also tend to be white (And asian I guess.) People with money tend to be educated. People with educations tend to have money. People with money are be better able to put resources into their health, the primarily visible ones being diet and exercise. People who are younger tend to look healthier.
Each characteristic has a link to power; some are directly related to it and some indirectly so. People can be powerful without being any of the above: educated, monied, young, or healthy. Likewise, people can be any of the above characteristics without being powerful. But people -will- make quick assessments of how powerful, and therefore attractive, you are based on how powerful you appear, and how powerful you appear is tied to how “white” you look look, which is to say, affluent, young, and, yea, white.
In the beforetimes, the people with power were rich and landed. Thus, they didn’t have to do physical labor. So they were pale and chubby, and paleness and chubbyness were associated with money and that money was associated with power. So that’s what people were attracted to.
Then having power translated to having money translated into being able to take lavish vacations, and being able to reverse the effects of aging so as to be healthier and look younger. So tanned, fit, young people are what people became attracted to.
Think about it this way. What movie star do you are you most attracted to? (It can be a little or a lot, or whatever.) Now think about it objectively, what do you find attractive about this person, in terms of facial structure and body type? Now think about how often you see people with facial characteristics and body shapes similar to this person. Do you feel similar amounts of attraction to that person?
No, right? I mean, I’m sure you’re still attracted to this person what with their classic Hollywood looks. Just not as much as if they were an actual Hollywood star.
I mean, take a look at Brad Pitt or George Clooney or Ian Somerhalder or Ben Affleck or something. They’re pretty average in terms of their attractive-white-guyness. That’s a weird sentence, to be sure, but what I mean to say is that, as far as physical attractiveness goes, they’re not exceptionally physically attractive in comparison to attractive people who are not famous actors.
Actors generally fall into the category of “more attractive than average people” in terms of looks, which is, again, how powerful we perceive them to be based on their physical characteristics and our assumptions of how powerful they are based on those characteristics. But famous actors? Our assumptions of their wealth are generally higher and stronger than what we would attribute to ordinary people we find physically attractive, so we find the famous actors even more attractive than we would if they were not famous actors.
@Phil: What do movie stars have to do with it? I know loads of guys who are attracted to this movie star or that one but look at their boyfriends/girlfriends and they’re nothing like those stars. It’s a fantasy, not real.
All sex is about power.
Power manifests in all sorts of ways. You’re defining power purely in terms of money and success and classic, mainstream good looks. And specifically in terms of being attracted to people who have power. I know plenty of guys who like to be tied up and fucked by the ugliest, skankiest guys they can hook up with. The power they’re attracted to is of a different order. But they are also those guys who like to wield the power. They’re not attracted to those with power, they’re attracted to those without it.
Of course people are attracted to money and celebrity, for all sorts of reasons.
I’m not sure what bearing any of this has on some guy who isn’t sexually attracted to people who look a certain way not wanting to have sex with people who look that way.
White privilege or no white privilege you can’t force people to fuck who they’re not attracted to.
Sorry, I don’t even know why I’m arguing about this.
Just “tired and emotional”.
@Lefty: too bad nobody, anywhere, is sayign that you have to fuck anyone.
nobody is “forcing you to fuck people that you don’t find attractive”, and the more you keep saying that the more you make yourself look like an idiot and prove me right.
we’re pointing out that the “preferences” have a societal base – which they do. you keep saying “you can’t tell me what to fuck!”, uh, nobody is, you dunce. you’re free to continue not getting any.
my point, Joe, is that we need to stop using the phrase “straight-acting”. it’s a detrimental term. one can be visibly and identifiably gay and still be “masculine” – one can be visibly and identifiably gay and not be “feminine” – we need to stop using the term “straight-acting”. it’s a useless and indeed self-defeating term.
i have tonnes of straight male friends. always have, likely always will, but i’m still visibly gay, although not particularly “femme” – i’m more “Classically Gay.” We need, however, to realize that “gay” doesnt’ mean femme – meaning you can embody many “Stereotypically Gay” traits and characteristics and accept that they’re unique to GAY MALE CULTURE, thus they’re not exactly “femme” – fem is a term that straight guys who don’t understand gender norms use. WE should know better than to repeat them.
there are many different gay stereotypes.
the gay guy who tells everyone that he’s not a “stereotypical gay guy” is indeed a big stereotype of its own.
there are stereotypical gay punks. stereotypical gay hipster stoners. stereotypical gay jocks. stereotypical gay gym boys. stereotypical gay thugs. stereotypical gay twinks. stereotypical gay business-types.
there is not “one gay stereotype” – that’s something that unenlightened straight people think. believe it or not, there are some clueless straight folks that don’t automatically realize that i’m gay. why? simple: they see my shaved head, numerous tattoos, combat boots, leather and steel spiked belt, and don’t realize that “gay comes in that form” as well.
which is silly, as i utterly embody the eastvillage/brooklyn gay queer-dude stereotype. some folks just aren’t aware of anything “gay” that isn’t a tanned blonde twink listening to Abba in a pair of short-shorts (which i’ve not done for 12 years).
like when The Crying Game came out….everyone sayign “don’t give away the secret!” uh…it was only a secret to straight people in the audience. every queer person that saw it was like “uh, that’s a dude”
just some things to think about. i’ve yet to ever meet a gay man that didn’t embody aspects of the many varied gay stereotypes, prototypes and archetypes. only gay men who still think that “a gay stereotype” is a narrow-minded straight person’s idea of what a gay person is.
oh, and this isn’t an attack Joe. i’m sure you know exactly what I’m talking about, brother. I’m rather sure we’re on the exact same page about this. Cheers.
@redmont: Yea, I’m sure your right.. I don’t go to the bars around here ever.. I haven’t been on the sites for some years. I really enjoy reading your comment. I’m the whole blast! : D come to NE!
@JayKay: Jesus, JayKay, there are people who hook up with *you*?
@mike: It would be interesting to see if you would date a 50 year old when you yourself are 50. Hmmmmm…..
@mike: Wonderfully written!
@Little Kiwi: So much respect for you, man. I was on the fence when I began reading this thread, but you’ve won a convert.
@Little Kiwi: that you so much for the time and effort you put in on here. I’m really enligthen by what you wrote.
How I know its racism?
(a) White guys (or any race really) who say they are looking for friends, but apparently you must be White to be their friends.
(b) I have dated White guys who made it clear that they had a pecking order based on race. this was in my 20s (which was in the 90s so I don’t know if that’s changed).
(c) this is not the only research to show this. In fact, other research with racial features shows if you darken the skin of a white person, the chances of being liked will go down with the audience in terms of attraction
This isn’t a matter of guess work. Indeed, the people who are trying to rebutt the data can’t so they try to attack the entire idea that there is evidence. If the evidence is wrong, bring up your own data showing people aren’t prejudiced.
@doublestandard: I will give you an example of how one can tell its racism that motivates many. Not you. Many. When I have responded to social group activities in which someone posts saying they have a social hobby that I like, and I am thinking I am responding to an ad for a social hobby,t hey will respond by asking question like what race am I or sorry I don’t date black guys. Its really strange to respond to a social hobby ad with that kind of mind set.
The problem is not that people are attracted to particular individuals, or that gays have become more shallow in their sexual selections, but that people think that soliciting sex gives them a right to brazenly hurt other people’s feelings. Grindr may be for sex–but we don’t have to go out of our way to make other people feel bad by posting cruel missives like “no fems” or “no fats.” The pursuit of sex is not carte blanche to stop being nice to others. I cannot stand those people who, in the name of “honesty” stamp on everyone else’s feelings–like we are better off knowing who does and doesn’t like us, who does and doesn’t find us attractive, etc. There is a sub-set of gay men who aren’t shallow, precisely, but angry–they have tapped into that same adolescent anger that a lot of men have–that sense that the world has screwed them over/is filled with incompetent people–an emotional state that they then explain by blaming it on the rest of the world. That anger overwhelms their compassion, and, sadly, makes them terrible candidates for genuine relationships–however attractive they are, they cannot keep anyone for any length of time because they’re not kind enough. Anyone who cannot let someone down easily, who cannot be kind to other people, and who cannot understand that the first two qualities do not preclude their ability to select sex partners entirely based on physical appearance shouldn’t be having sex. We have a right to sleep with whoever wants to sleep with us, but we don’t have the right to be cruel while we do it.
It’s a catch-22. If as a white man, you date too many people of other ethnicities you’re labeled as having an ethnic fetish, whether someone says you’re a “rice queen” or have “jungle fever.” If you date white men, you’re a socially-conditioned, near racist with no access to your true desires; mindlessly acting out the demands of your culture. It’s a no win situation.
Having dated many types of men, I feel like I can say I prefer men who are funny, scruffy, fit, and successful. There are any number of reasons to want to date the powerful — we can argue biological imperatives forever, but at the end of the day it’s logical to seek a strong partner to improve our lot in life.
I also know that anyone who described themselves with words like “Queer brown drag queen faggot” probably takes their identity a lot more seriously than I do and is invested in fighting different battles than I am. I recognize that I am able to do this because of my privilege, but you can’t expect to shackle our desire to your politics. At best this results in bad sex and at worst ends in 100 comments of resentment amongst people who might otherwise be your allies.
@Little Kiwi: when someone is repeatedly misstating or just plain getting your argument wrong despite how many times you correct them, you can assume they have some issues with what you are saying rather than there being a problem with what you are saying. They are dancing around it, in other words, because the things you are actually saying makes them feel uncomfortable. Trust me, in my work life, I have learned- just let it go. You aren’t going to get them to stop tap dancing around because you are asking them to engage in introspection that they clearly aren’t ready and may never be ready to engage in.
@ Little Kiwi: You are absolutely right. And the rest of you are a-holes.
@Jigae: It depends on what motivates them for dating black guys. Again, this is just my experience- but quite often for some men , its a fetish. I have some wonder white friends. Some of whom I dated. They dated all races before me, and after me.
Then t here were other guys- not so wonder. They saw me as a fetish. They wanted me to be “gansta” or to dumb myself down for them. That’s how they view race. hell, I can tell you an even worse story, I was dating , or thought I was dating this guy for a month, we finally have sex, and he says to me “oh i don’t date black guys, I just want to see what the sex would be like with one.” I will never forget that experience because it was so stark. needless to say he and i never hung out again.
The point is – its not enough to say “I am attracted to black guys.” The same issue applies here in reverse to those who exclude black guys. Are you attracted because you find black men and other races attractive or because you want to have a fetish. BIG difference between the two. And I know quite a few black men. THey all have had my experiences. this indicates possibly that its not an uncommon experience for black men to face.
Since none of you “it’s just a preference” people answered my question, I pose it again:
If CATEGORICALLY EXCLUDING people of a certain race isn’t racist, is an employer publicly refusing to hire gay people homophobic???
it really pisses me off coming from someone you weren’t really interested in in the first place. Like the Jewish guy to hit me up to ask whether I was cut or uncut, when I replied the latter he said “oh sorry not interested” well guess what neither was i
@mike128: Little Kiwi sounds like the typical white liberal who guilt trips others into doing things he himself wouldn’t do. Which is basically all of them.
@Joetx: You can’t compare personal freedoms and personal choices with public policy and social accountability.
I always find it interesting how society will blame one group for a certain behavior that everyone else in the world does. Straight people aren’t being called racist for their dating preferences. Asians in Asia aren’t being challenged for dating only asians. But gay men must always be blamed for doing something everyone else does naturally. tsk tsk.
@Kev C: The same tools used to determine public policy (sociological data) are at play here to determine that what you call preference is in fact racial bias stemming from the sociological factors that tell you White is more attractive.
And, straight people, if you had bothered to look at the video by Little Kiwi, or, hell, knew anything about history (considering Brown v Board of Education was in part decided on similar sociological studies on race) are indeed asked about their views of race in terms of attractiveness, smarts and other factors.
I doubt this will get through to you. People like you believe what you believe despite your access to the internet which allows you to research the issues being discussed here, and yet, you choose not to do so before spouting off you bullshit. That tells me your ignorance is willful.
However, just in case, here’s the reality: The research of black and white issues shows for all groups, gay or straight, there is a bias towards White being found as more attractive. This is true regardless of race. So, blacks find white more attractive, Asians, etc. That’s a representation of how powerful the societal bias is.
Its not about being “liberal.’ Its about not ignoring evidence just because it happens to make you look like a douche.
Its not a gay thing. Its a societal thing. The problem that Little Kiwi has been having is in talking to people who somehow think they are disconnected from those societal forces or, are so ignorant, like yourself, that they don’t even realize that there is a larger societal debate about these issues. This discussion is not new. Gay is just the latest variation of a very old debate.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you people? The ONLY thing that we advocate for you to do is to interrogate what you desire, i.e. how does what you want line up with what all the racist, sexist bullshit wants you to do? If you cannot EXPLICITLY tell me what it is about whatever ethnicity you don’t like, shut the fuck up. Just make it explicit and move on. That’s all I want you to do. For example, just SAY “I don’t like asians because I think they are hairless wimps who don’t have the muscles that I want.” and MOVE ON. So you have this idea of Asians that is totally racist and fucked up. You’re a big fucking racist – great! Admit it and move on.
I’m a black male and I will fuck anyone with a nice ass!
Oh, and no sociologists.
I am an arab-american, and I have red hair, freckles,and white skin. No one believes I am arabic when they meet me. I met a guy on Grindr who preferred ‘gingers’. He also stated no arabs, blacks, asians, but latino is ok….Well I met him to hook up, and I let him blow me. When I wouldn’t reciprocate to help him get off I told him he just sucked some arabic cock, and that you can’t judge people buy the way they look, and I left him blue balling..HAHAHA
@Interesting: When you set up a situation where a person has no chance to be perceived as a victimizer they lose any interest in seeing things your way. How do you decide someone is dating people for “noble reasons” or just as a fetish? Do you know better than they do?
My Grindr profile is civilized, but I don’t expect anyone else to take my feelings into account when they make theirs. I don’t go home and cry when someone says they don’t date people over 30, those with body hair, or any other stupid requirement. I don’t care because these aren’t people I’d want to meet. It sucks that people have bias, and it’s stupid because their standards are probably much more open in real life. But at the end of the day, Grindr is primarily about sex. They’re trying to save everyone’s time — it’s not charming and it’s kind of sad, but is it better to waste time contacting people who will never write you back?
In real life you can pick up on the chemistry that means “We could have fun together” in a way you can’t on an app. Bemoan Grindr destroying gay bars and face to face socializing, but don’t attack men for their honesty.
What the fuck is wrong with you people? All we advocate for is for you to figure out where the fuck your desires come from – whether or not they be inherited form all the sexist, racist bullshit we are taught. So what if you have the same ideals as the common racist. Just fucking admit it and move on.
@Jigae: Thanks for sharing. Doesn’t change a word of what I wrote in terms of its accuracy. but you seemed to need to get the random stream of consciousness out.
@Interesting: Are you saying I’m not making sense? My point is simply: Calling people racists isn’t the best way to make friends or change their behavior. Hopefully that’s more clear.
@Interesting: Seriously no. Here’s what you should do: Talk to a heterosexual woman, any woman, any race, and ask them to justify their dating preferences. And they will SHUT YOU DOWN!
CORRECTION!!!!!! Men of Color…. %95 of the earth….prefer OTHER men with color!!! Go to Asian….Black…Latino…Hispanic sites and THEY say “NO WHITES”……WHERE do you guys constantly come here with DELUSIONAL realities where everyone wants you…desires you…etc…in fact it is VERY opposite! ONCE AGAIN…GROW UP….GET A CLUE…AND WHEN YOU GET BASHED BY SOME WHITE HILLBILLY…PLEASE DO NOT RUN TO YOUR “FRIENDS OF COLOR”…PEOPLE ARE GETTING SICK OF THIS BULLSHIT…
So if you like vanilla, blueberry, bubblegum, and butter brickle but not raspberry ice cream you are suddenly evil for saying no raspberry ice cream rather than listing all the flavors you do like. That is absurd. Talk about whining because people don’t want to sleep with you. Grow up. Talk about being bitter because you don’t give someone a boner. Trying to claim people are taught to only be attracted to people of their own race is an obnoxious notion, not grounded in reality at all – it is wishful thinking in the extreme. It smacks of someone thinking they have a right to sleep with whomever they wish. That is egomaniacal. If you are attracted to people of varying background, then celebrate that. If you are only attracted to specific backgrounds, then celebrate that. If you are using Grindr after claiming it makes you feel bad, then seek psychological help for not being able to just shut it off and walk away. If you are ugly, find other ugly people to fuck (straight people obviously do this all the time). If you are handsome, don’t feel guilty about it just because someone thinks you should. Don’t whine because people won’t sleep with you for whatever reason; bitter people are the ultimate turn-off. And one tip: if you are tall and gay, you must make the first move. Most guys are naturally intimidated by taller guys, so if you are tall, you must make the first move to put the shorter guy at ease (too many tall guys wonder why other guys don’t approach them, and that is why; the burden of being tall is that – top, versatile, or bottom – you have to make the first move). Short or tall, now stop whining about the people who won’t bed you and find the ones you like who will; much more constuctive use of time and energy(and always practice safe sex).
@Kev C:Once again, Brown v board of education- multiple studies on race. the list goes on and on really since the 1950s. As I said to Kiwi- this is just willful ignorance.
Well that’s it. I should just let an anonymous third party set up my tricks from now on. Who cares what turns me on. The important thing is political correctness. I will take the 500 pound slob from Greenland. Is Tom Thumb one of my choices given me by someone else?
@Little Kiwi: one can also be gay and NOT visibly and identifiably gay and NOT be acting and it’s perfectly OK. But, you seem to have an issue with that. Or, you have a problem with identifying a term to describe it other than “straight acting”. You seem to have a very easy time identifying problems without ever describing a solution. For instance, you don’t want people to use the term “straight acting”. But, you never say what term you would like to be used instead in order to convey the characteristics you know those using the term want to convey.
@tim: a problem with what?
i’ve never met nor seen a gay guy i didn’t know was gay. are many straight people fooled? yes. of course. but i’m not, and most other gay people aren’t either. family can recognize family.
i’ve never once, at any time, said the things you claim to think i’ve said. so chill.
you’ll have to be more clear and specific if you’re asking me a question. right now you’re just throwing a tantrum. breathe. calm yourself down, and ask a specific question.
what characteristics, specifically, are you talking about? if this has to do with straight people who aren’t hip to actual gay diversity and are unable to tell if a person is gay or not then that’s utterly irrelevant – fooling people who aren’t gay is like tiptoe-ing around the blind. it’s not exactly noble, nor difficult.
what are you asking me? what term should you use to label yourself? i guess my question is: why are you trying to label yourself with quantifiers? gay men who need to label themselves by their mannerisms should spend less time thinking of ways to describe themselves and more time working on getting over the value they give such labels.
@Dan: too bad your opinions are negated by factual information, eh?
but kudos for being one more gay white idiot who missed the entire point of the article – it’s not about what you like, but how you are ABOUT IT, and how you express it, and the language you use for what you dont’ like.
that all went over your head. one more plebe. thrilling.
@Little Kiwi: And those facts you keep talking about? :)
I think everyone should be forced to fuck people they’re not attracted to.
There’s nothing insane about that suggestion. Hell, no!
Am I the only one who thinks not being sexually turned on by someone is the same as lynching them because you think they’re racially inferior?
PS – I am a duck.
@Interesting: Society ends at the bedroom. How are you any different than the religious conversatives who want to tell you what you can and can’t do in private and in relationships? It’s the same damn thing but with a different label.
Maybe they’re excluding Asians because Asians have small penises. Personally, I think Asian men have great bodies but it’s almost always disappointing in terms of the penis size.
Personally, I’ve been with men of all races. There’s not a racist bone in my body. Once I went with a stunning black male basketball player from Missouri. He had the silkiest skin. I had a sore mouth for days. He also kept calling me bitch and didn’t want me to kiss him.
Think what you want, but there is a clear bias toward the ideal standard of attractiveness in America and most of the western world that favors Caucasians. No matter how post racial people claim America is, the simple fact is that people are still judged based on race first because that’s what one sees first; and, unfortunately, the American population has been fed a steady stream of negative images of people of color for hundreds of years. This can have a profound subconscious effect on how people of color are perceived when folks encounter them. Even more interesting is that this doesn’t just influence how Caucasians view of people of color, but also how people of color view themselves as well. For example, black females in the entertainment industry who are held up as beautiful are usually light skinned with European features. And most of them them, relax their hair with toxic chemicals and wear very expensive long flowing hair weaves. Additionally, there are Asian women “getting their eyes fixed”, to give them a more western look. Now do you think these women were born thinking that they needed to make these drastic changes in their appearance in order to be beautiful, or do you think that they were learned over time through subtle messaging in television, film, and print that what they are naturally is not good enough? Nobody is asking everyone to sex up every color or shape they come across, I just think that if people would take a long look inside at where these likes and dislikes come from they might be surprised to find that theirs more to it then just simply being born with it.
I guess I’m the odd man out here because race has never been an issue for me. I once had a black boyfriend. I did not date him because he was black. I dated him because he was a wonderful human being with a good heart, good values. These are the things that matter to me. I don’t pick and choose according to race, body type, etc. I don’t limit myself with superficial attributes. I really don’t care about such things. Black, white, purple, polkadot, old, young, fat, skinny, smooth, hairy, I don’t care. This is not how I approach people.
If some of you here feel that skin color or cock size are the most important things then, by all means, knock yourselves out. But don’t be surprised and don’t complain if your “relationships” quickly crash and burn.
@JayKay: A “disease carrier?” What do you do when you’re trolling for a white, gym queen who’s no more than 3 years older than you, you pathetic troll? Get his entire medical record and a blood report conducted the second before he walks in your door at 3 am? Talk about a delusional twit.
A good friend of mine who is generally only attracted to white men has a unique and rather polite way of declaring his preferences by saying that he’s attracted to “pale skin.” Take it for what it is, but its a lot better than saying “no blacks, asians, etc.” As someone here said, its not an issue of what you’re biologically or culturally attracted to, but the way you make it known.
@Kev C: Your ignorance of what are social morays about society and the bedroom are stunning. I am not even referring here to liberal versus conservative or gay versus straight. People’s ideas of what is approporiate there itself comes often from what the rest of the society tells them. You are so ignorant and immature it is amazing you found shit site, but can not Google the subjects that you want to pretend to understand in your babbling.
Gay portals have not turned people into racist or body fascists. it just makes it easier for those who already were to hide behind the somewhat anonymity of a smartphone/computer to do so.
take a look at sexualracismsux.com
@Kev C: Just to guild the lilly about how ignorant you are on issues, here’s something that I looked up once because everyone thinks of it as “universal” as a part of sign of sexual attraction- the kiss. guess what, its a social construct too:
It goes on to point out that people derive pleasure from it, but that does not mean its always in every culture been seen as a romantic. The point here is not that you don’t have preferences, just like the point isn’t that I don’t enjoy kisses, but to understand how these things arrived to be. The cultural norms of it. In your case, its a series of social biases about race, but you can’t handle that.
Your lack of curiosity has lead you to a series of made up beliefs about why you do think. It must be intrinsic. I must not able to help it. Some things are more intrinsic than others. Somethings are more biological than others. Who you are attracted to as far as race is more social construct. The idea of beauty, even amongst whites, has changed over time. Bigger women for straight white men used to be the ideal beauty, now its skinny women. It would be absurd for straight white men today to say “oh I am genetically or biologically mandates to be attracted to skinny white girls over plump ones” And yet thats what people here are arguing.
Can I just say that this is a REAL BIG PROBLEM IN THE WHITE GAY MALE COMMUNITY!!!!
I’m a black man and I love everyone. I have dated just about every race there is (still holding out for a Native American…yum!). I can honestly say a lot of white gay males have a serious problem with race. It’s not enough for them to be not attracted to you, they have to shame you for not being up to their “standards”. I live in Miami and trust me I know, even the latinos the white men date LOOK LIKE WHITE MEN. You go to parties and you will never get spoken to and you know IT’S BECAUSE YOU ARE BLACK. No matter how well dressed you are and how many times you have purchased your own drinks, if you flirt with a white guy often than not he thinks “you want something”. If he is interested in you he probably has a thug fetish and wants you to prison rape him. Rarely is there a white guy I come across who just likes me. In Miami and other cities I have visited, they have gay bars that are known as “white bars” and “black bars” and “latin bars”. You rarely see the first group visiting the later two. They don’t feel they are racist. Oh no! Let’s add up all the factors. A guy can have all (10/10) the qualifications you are looking for and be smoking hot in his own right, but his skin color “turns you off”. That’s not racist at all. On any Saturday night the same guy can be found making out with a white guy who only has (3/10) and posting heartbroken Facebook post about a guy who had (5/10) but he was white damn it! That’s racist! It’s not preference, it’s racist!!!!! I like slim guys, that is a preference. I have dated guys and will date guys who aren’t slim. If you will not or “cannot” date a guy who based on his race YOU ARE A RACIST!!!!!!! Own up to it. I’m sick of the “I’m gay there is no way I’m racist.”
this thread has been a wonderful example of how a great many gay white man want everyone to know how strongly they will defend their incorrect opinions.
” How are you any different than the religious conversatives who want to tell you what you can and can’t do in private and in relationships? It’s the same damn thing but with a different label.”
This is the point Kev C and others are missing – it’s actually those with “ethnic preferences” who are already being “told” what to like. A white, straight, male worshipping culture. “no fats fems asians or blacks”
you sit here sayign “you can’t tell me what to like!”, well,, guess what chump? You’ve already been told by a white straight male worshipping society – it’s been dictated to you, and you’re “preferences” have been chosen for you. Those of you who are defending your right to be so limited are actually the ones who’ve already let “someone else” tell you what to like. Amazingly, you don’t see it.
Just like when the same insecure gays scream “you can’t tell me to come out!” which is a deflective way of saying “I already let straight people tell me to stay in!”
@Little Kiwi: Exactly! Is it just me or are you amongst the precious few who sees things as they really are?
Am I the only one who thinks people who think like me see things as they really are?
@meego: there are at least two reasons i see things as they really are.
1. i’m educated and actually know what i’m talking about
2. i have nothing to lose by believing in factual sociological realities
many other guys on this board *do* have something to lose. namely their own faded sense of pride. why else the ardent need to defend an “opinion” that is factually incorrect? we’re seeing a lot of guys who pick the wrong battle for the wrong reasons. pity them – it’ll be their downfall in life. when you have to ignore reality in order for your “opinion” to be maintained you’re officially no better than that nutbag Creationist Wendy Wright.
@Little Kiwi: Again, I agree. That was a compliment, btw, in my previous message :)
@Little Kiwi: “1. i’m educated and actually know what i’m talking about”
Indeed. And your comparing guys who aren’t turned on sexually by certain skin colours to the Holocaust was not only highly educated but was in no way offensive to victims of the Holocaust. :)
lefty, you can keep dancing around the issue. it only proves me right. keep it up. i like when plebes do my work for me.
No one wants to be a racist, especially a gay liberal demanding the acceptance of heterosexual society. SMH…
@Little Kiwi: “2. i have nothing to lose by believing in factual sociological realities”
Well, you still haven’t provided any facts to support your assertions, despite constantly referring to “facts” – until you do, your “factual sociological realities” ain’t worth shit.
Just one more person on the internet giving an opinion on something he’s briefly googled or read about on wiki. :(
@Interesting: Please use proper grammar/spelling before insulting someone else’s intelligence. A moray is an eel, mores are social constructs. And your example is a problematic one. A book was just published on The Science of Kissing suggesting there are a number of biochemical influences upon this behavior and attraction.
I’m not saying attraction isn’t mediated by social influences or partially a social construct. At the end of the day, everything is a social construct, but it doesn’t mean there’s not some underlying reality that it’s constructed upon.
And it’s rude to accuse someone of babbling just because you disagree with their argument. Thanks.
lefty, i get it. you’re too lazy to interrogate your own beliefs. congratulations on being mediocre. each comment you make only proves me right.
@Lefty: Nicely done.
I’m also befuddled by how sociological research are factual realities but biological realities are “social constructs.” The mind boggles.
and lefty, the fact that you continue to ignore that the article is about the language used online only makes you look like you have the reading comprehension skills of a drunken child. good for you.
people talk about language, and you say “you can’t tell me what to fuck! you can’t legislate it!”
nobody has suggested otherwise, and if you think they have then you’re massive guilt-induced insecurity complex is showing.
you’re like Rick Santorum being asked about repealing DADT and then saying “gay men shouldn’t be allowed to have sex in the showers!”
like, uh,,great. but that’s not what we’re talking about.
keep it up, sugar.
@Little Kiwi: “lefty, you can keep dancing around the issue. it only proves me right. keep it up. i like when plebes do my work for me.”
Your stock responses are either to adopt some macho bullshit stance like “grow some orbs” while pretending to be anti-patriarchy and pro-feminist at the same time (the irony of which is clearly lost on you).
Or you just say “Oh, you’ve proven my point for me!” in lieu of an actual response.
All quite empty postures.
And a snob too. :(
But it doesn’t matter, does it?
This article will drift away in a day or so and you can through the whole routine on another article and again and again and again.
Isn’t the internets great!? :)
“grow some orbs” isn’t me calling you a woman. it’s me calling you a little boy whose balls haven’t dropped.
boys lie and make excuses and ignore truths to save their own pride. men own up to when they’re wrong and accept realities.
you’re a boy. grow some orbs.
it’s true. you’ve proven me right, over and over again. it’s not my fault that you’ve shown yourself to be an intellectually lazy idiot. by all means, keep it up.
@Little Kiwi: The mark of courage is a pair of testicles? And you’re pro-feminist. Do you want to rethink that one? :)
my you’re awfully proud to be so mediocre. keep typing. only proves me right again and again.
One thing I’ll say, is that those that don’t find people of other ethnicities attractive are missing out. There are lots of rather accomplished, attractive, and oh so awesome people out there of other ethnicities and body types. And if someone wants to restrict themselves, the more omnivorous of us out there will gladly date what they find “undesirable”.
I will say though that few things kill my wood faster than the language exemplified by the “no fats; no femmes; no Asians; no blacks; masc only; my age or younger; str8-acting, you be too; non-scene; etc”.
@Little Kiwi: :)
You may pick one, and only one.
i just think it’s hilarious when a white guy gets angry when you turn him down for his racial preferences.
they’re not into ‘fats fems asians or blacks’, they hit on me, and i let them know that i’m not into guys who write that shit in their profiles. they then get all butt-hurt – “hey, that’s not fair! you’re judging me!”
yeah. right. it’s not fair for me to judge you for not only judging entire *other* groups but for stating it in a profile so blatantly and rudely.
betcha didn’t think you’d get shot down by a white boy for having a profile that says “No Asians”, eh? well, you did.
So where’s the push to hold women accountable for their blatantly discriminatory dating practices?
oh please, as if JayKay’s historically racist opinions mean anything.
it’s really amazing how proud some of you are to be as sexually liberated as my senile 98 year old grandmother.
thanks JayKay lol. I also like how you just get a lot of people on here pulling things out of the air to justify the fact they don’t like white people.
I came out here and totally agreed with the concept that we should avoid hurting people’s feelings by listing a bunch of “NO”s if we can say what we’re looking for. I don’t think any reasonable person disagrees with me on that.
But then you have these guys who are like “This is only a problem that white gays have, and everyone else shits rainbows for breakfast” that’s what cracks me up hahah… I mean, we all know for a fact, that you rarely ever see two gay black or Asian men identifying themselves as a couple in public, whereas you actually do see a number of mixed race and white-white couples. But no… we can never possibly suggest that there are issues within black or Asian culture that might be contributing to this. It’s just the white guys’ fault hahaha
thanks for proving that you deluded white boys have no concept of all about how racism works, how subversive it is in society, and the sheer reality that White and Non-White are not yet true Equals in society.
but lemme guess, you’re gonna say “no, racism is gone, we have a black president”
yeah. much to your disappointment, no doubt.
keep it up. genuinely. you’re proving the thesis of this article to be completely correct.
@Little Kiwi: since anyone can go back and see you’ve presented no facts whatsoever, it is highly doubtful you are white, male or gay. You are just trolling to get people to visit your blog. White people are in fact a tiny minority on the planet, so complaining that a few white people won’t sleep with you since you aren’t white is pretty obnoxious. The real question is why you are obsessed with sleeping with people who don’t find you attractive. That is the disturbing element of this thread.
Dan, the research is out there for everyone to read. If you’re too lazy to do it then you prove me right.
“The real question is why you are obsessed with sleeping with people who don’t find you attractive. That is the disturbing element of this thread.”
only to idiots who clearly have mediocre reading comprehension skills.
it’s about the language used that perpetuates the racial prejudice still prevalent in society.
“White people are in fact a tiny minority on the planet, so complaining that a few white people won’t sleep with you since you aren’t white is pretty obnoxious.”
too bad that’s not what’s being done. it’s calling out the blatantly prejudice of “no fats fems asians or blacks” and how that’s a socially-borne form of prejudice.
and anyone who sees my blog will see that i’m a gay white male. with a sexy-as-hell mixed-ethnicity boyfriend :D
the disturbing element of this thread is how stupid some of you are, and how adamant you are about defending your uninformed opinions. but once again, thanks for proving me right. either you didnt’ read the article, or you’re simply too stupid to understand it. either way, you did my work for me. so thanks :D
right. there’s nothing racist about this guys.
and this guy here? no WAY he suffers from the effects of internalized homophobia. no not at all….
This is political correctness ran amok. It is no more racist to not be attracted to someone of a given race than it is sexist not to be attracted to women if you are a gay man. You’re not saying they don’t have the right to exist or you can’t be friends, you are just saying you don’t want to have a sexual romantic relationship with them. The physical thing is a natural part of a sexual romantic relationship. If it’s about your creative capacity, then that is just a friendship, not a romantic relationship.
People are talking here about white guys who don’t like black guys. But what about a guy like a friend of mine who is white who is only attracted to black guys. Is he not allowed to feel that way and should he be criticized for not wanting to have sex with white guys? I accept his attractions, I certainly don’t get bent out of shape because he doesn’t want to have sex with me because I’m white.
Or what about black or Asian guys who only want to date people of their own race? Are they not allowed to feel that way? Must they be forced to date white guys? It’s crazy. People are attracted to what they are attracted to and that has nothing to do with racism. Now if you won’t be friends with a person of a given race, that’s totally different.
yeah I mean clearly LittleKiwi has a bone to pick, coming on here talking about “you white boys” … you don’t hear me saying anything disparaging about Black or Asian people.. in fact, i’m advocating for people not to say disparaging things about them. and yet I’m the racist who doesn’t understand that racism exists. lol got it.
here’s what we’re not allowed to say: there is a big problem with homophobia in the black community — bigger, in fact, than society at large… much of it has to do with the black community’s historically strong relationship with the church and asserting hyper-masculinity as a way of countering the de-masculating effects of slavery and segregation. thus, homosexuality came to be associated in the black community with white-ness (or being a “white thing”) so it’s something you should suppress if you really want to maintain your connection to the community. i’d invite black folks to speak some more about this, because I don’t think I’m too far off the mark, but might not be fully getting this right.
what I’m suggesting is that maybe, to some degree, the reason why you don’t see a lot of visible black-black gay couples is due, *in part* (as in, not 100% the reason) … because of this dynamic. it might explain why, for example, my good gay black friend found it a lot easier to date three white guys in a row and never date another black man. because, since he publicly identifies as “gay” (and others can fairly easily identify him as such) … he becomes ostracized from the black community he grew up in and has to reach out to others who will accept him.
but yeah I could be wrong, and this could all be 100% the fault of white guys.
you guys are deluded by white privilege. you should be as ashamed of yourselves as your parents no doubt are about having to call you “Son.”
to school some more of you on this, watch this video. don’t worry, i didn’t make it ;-)
THIS is why there are some non-white people who still ‘prefer’ white people. THIS is why some white people prefer “other whites”
seriously. watch the video.
we learn this early and some of you clearly never challenge it or outgrow it. we live in a world that worship white straight men. “no fats fems asians or blacks”
make the bloody connection.
@Little Kiwi just as I thought, you realize you haven’t provided any facts whatsoever. What a troll.
Actually my parents love me quite a bit.
What about you though? Think Mummy and Daddy are happy to know that Junior turned out to be a self-loathing white man who spends 16 hours a day regurgitating sociologist propaganda on the internet?
i don’t have to hate black people or “leftist gays” to be accepted by family. sorry that you have to. i can see it’s messed you up royally.
@Tommy: No one is trying to force anyone to do anything, just suggesting that maybe they try something new. I would compare the people with absurdly narrow race/body/age requirements to someone who’s a really pick eater. In most cases a very picky eater isn’t someone who has an inate disgust for for most food, they’re just too stubborn and lazy to maybe try something outside of their own comfort zone and possibly discover that they like it. If there’s someone out there who honestly has no attraction to any guys outside of a narrow race/body/age category then I’m not asking them to go after someone they’re not at all attracted to, I just think a lot of people are unwilling to even try something different.
I have seen very very very few profiles that do say “no whites.”
granted, it’s very rare. But I have seen them.
I’m gonna throw this out there…
Ok, are you all listening?
Like FOR REAL??
Do I have your attention? Ok!!!
THERE IS A VERY BIG DIFFERENT BETWEEN NOT BEING ATTRACTED TO A SPECIFIC RACE AND FINDING A SPECIFIC RACE UNATTRACTIVE.
The first is a preference. Ex: I like tall guys, Asians tend to be short, so I really don’t find myself being attracted to Asians. OMG that Asian guy is 6’2″ and cute. I would so date him. Preference!
The second is RACIST! Ex: I don’t like black guys. I don’t care if he’s cute, smart, hardworking, honest, funny, and good in bed. I just don’t find black features attractive. Welcome to the KKKlan buddy!
Is that clear class? :)
@Little Kiwi: “you guys are deluded by white privilege. you should be as ashamed of yourselves”
Haha, nice try. So wrong but so predictable.
That’s why so many in the gay community are sad, desperate and lonely, turning to drugs, alcohol and their dogs as their only companions. Grindr? Yeah, evil.
@mike: What are you talking about? As if you’re equating the fact that only because muscleboys go to the gym, as opposed to fat people, the gays are healthier. It is not a matter of going to the gym for health. It’s for sex, duh. It’s to look hotter so they can be more desirable. Because if they were really more interested in a healthier lifestyle, they wouldn’t be injecting steroids or hanging out at the bars over the weekend getting high, drunk, and having unsafe sex. Of course, not everyone does this, but, go to a gay gym, and tell me a different story. “Yeah, it’s all for my health.” Right.
@revengeofthenerd: totally agree with you… I, for example, go to the gym to look good AND stay healthy. you can have multiple reasons for why you do something. I also recognize steroids to generally be unhealthy, so I don’t use them.
What’s my point? My point is that it’s hilarious for people to deride gay guys as “body fascists” simply because they’re more motivated to stay in shape than straight people.
In other words… if our excesses tend to be that we might work out a little too much, is this really such a bad thing? Especially when we take into account the fact that , for straight people, their excesses are far, far, far more likely to actually kill them. As in dead. If we’re going to through around ridiculous phrases like “fascism” then the widespread practice of eating so much fat that your heart explodes is what sounds a lot closer to fascism if you ask me.
Look at how many abs they have!!!!1!!! Those fascists!!!!! hahahaha
Interesting read here. Funny that no one has mentioned the other common statement in many online profiles: “HIV neg only” or “HIV neg ub2″ (or similar). Thoughts?
Interesting read here (although I eventually got tired of the little kiwi comments LOL). Funny that no one has mentioned the other common statement in many online profiles: “HIV neg only” or “HIV neg ub2″ (or similar). Thoughts?
@Little Kiwi: Wow. That anti-glee guy is scary. And sad.
@Jigae: If you are worried about proper grammar on a blog, that means you hve no arguments left.
@Chitown Kev: They exist, but typically, if you talk to them, it arises out of a lot of bad incidents with White gays online. I have asked a few out of curiosity.
If you want to scold me for expressing my preferences, fine. But if your agenda is to guilt me into having sex with people I do not find sexually attractive, then by default, you are trying to take away my right to choose. Freedom of speech comes with responsibilities and should be guarded against hate and demonization of people; any people. But freedom of choice is paramount. When 2 consenting adults (or more) decided to have sex, it’s none of your business how or why they chose to be together. If the world was a utopian grey, then your argument would have merit. But the world is a splash of every color. Some of my best friends are Green, Blue and Lavender. But sexually, I’m attracted to Red. Don’t you dare try to tell me I have to sleep with Green, Blue and Lavender out of some moral or ethical conflict you’re struggling with. It’s my choice. Not yours.
So are you telling me, white guys can have preferences but non-whites can’t? I don’t see a difference between a white guy saying “no Asians” and an Asian saying “no Asians.” You’re raising a double standard.
@Cambob: No one cares who you as a racist have sex other than what it tells us about social attitudes.
@Interesting: I’m saddened when people attack other’s intellects while displaying so little of their own.
@Katt: “No one wants to be a racist, especially a gay liberal demanding the acceptance of heterosexual society. SMH…” Thanks for your comments, especially this one. It’s as if you are representing my point of view. I appreciate you! Also, I love what you said about going to clubs and having 10/10 qualities. That statement is absolutely true.
@Little Kiwi: I don’t know where you find the energy to argue against the raging stupidity and racism coming from these goons, but thanks for the good fight! You’re a smart man. Never forget it.
@The Racists Men and Women on this site: None of you are exempt from the homophobic bigotry that controls this country. When you are degraded for being who you are, simply consider it KARMA. Additionally, you’ll soon the ranks of the “boogers” when you reach a certain age. Enjoy being racist clowns now. Soon, you’ll have ageist issues to deal with. Those issues will crush your spirit. Again, simply chalk it up to KARMA. See you in the future!!!
@Michael: you should probably look up the term bigot while you’re at it. you can defend and befriend someone of a different race all you want but to say you’d never date them because of their race…thats a whole other issue…
p.s. I love how some guys and gals are saying how dumb and unimportant this issue/article is. With 400+ comments including that jackass article (http://www.queerty.com/discriminating-against-race-on-grindr-doesnt-make-you-a-racist-20111018/)…I’d say this obviously a very important and STEAMING issue. The last time i saw so many comments, the article was either about lady Gaga or some straight guy with his shirt off. Wake up people, this is the world we live in! Speak, let your voices be heard, stop accepting the bullshit being spoon fed to you. It’s extremely unattractive.
wait a min, how come i don’t see white guys that never says, “not into hispanic/latino or mexican guys”. i learned that many white guys likes hispanic/latino or mexican guys because they have the white looks. even white guys loves CHOLOS/GHETTOS/COWBOYS and loves mexican food and culture. i’ve witnessed white guys hired mostly latino/mexican guys to work in the gay business.
white guys have said that white and latino guys even black guys are better looking than asians/pacific islanders because of shape of the eyes and also shape of the face.
I’m a white guy who is only sexually attracted to white and latino men. I have white, black, asian, and in the past transsexual friends. Why am I a bad person for being into what I am into? I have seen ads for white guys only into black guys, Latinos only into Latinos or whites, blacks only into whites, Asians only into whites, guys only into masc or fem, people like what they like and guys are very up front about it on those sites because guess what? They are looking to get off ASAP! People don’t use grindr and manhunt to meet friends they use it to f$!k! Get real.
@Jigae: Well, your sadness, “an emotion” is certainly proof that I am wrong in terms of my arguments, based on logic and fact.
\@Jay: I think you are a liar,a nd you don’t have many actual friends outside of the groups you date. If you are, you are the rare, rare exception.
@Interesting: I agree with you that Jay is lying. White gay men mostly befriend what they want to date. That’s the way it works in the gay community. You say “hello” to what you want to sleep with.
It’s funny to watch all the racist white gays, and their mentally enslaved black supporters, defend their racism by blaming it on everyone else (i.e., the homophobic black community, the media, their suburban upbringing). Just acknowledge that you’re racist. It’s so much easier that way.
I decided to design my own mobile app that works on all devised that have a browser, its called http://InstantMALE.com i’m still working on the app but its coming along
I’m not sure what to think about this…
Take my situation for example:
When I came out and started dating, I lived in East London – the most ethnically diverse part of UK. So it’s no wonder that at first I dated only South Asian or Far Eastern Asian guys as majority of people around were migrants from those areas… and for some reason Japanese students in the area were really attracted to me (perhaps I reminded them of sumo fighters as I was fat back then :-)
However that year was a TERRIBLE one for me, as date after date after date I failed to perform sexually – I know from experience that I’m a top, and the problem was that I just couldn’t get hard enough to do anal! I was pretty much in depression because of that! Hell, I even started doubting that I’m gay at all! Dates with 20 guys (or so) and all failures… (and don’t judge me about the numbers! most of them dumped me as soon as I was “unable to perform”… a couple of times I was told to get out of bed and leave pretty much immediately – that was just terrible).
And then everything changed… how? Well, I was on holidays away from London (in Wales) and had a date with local English guy – and everything went perfectly. And then with another white guy, and then with Hispanic guy, and another English…
Later I once again had dates with couple of Asians again – and once again they were a failure for me…
So I never looked back since and haven’t dated a non-white guy for a while. I don’t know what to think about this, but to be frank – I’m not willing to relive those past experiences again and again just to satisfy some liberal idea in my head (and I always thought of myself as being very liberal). I think (and I hope) that there is a biological reason for that.
Of course I don’t put any racist notes on my Grindr or Gaydar profiles, that’s just horrible (although perhaps it wastes time of those to whom I will reply with polite version of “no”). I don’t find it wrong to put notes about preferred age or fitness though – as I just don’t find fat people attractive and I don’t usually contact well with people from other age groups (be it stupid teenagers or smart-er pensioners).
Of course I don’t put any racist notes on my Grindr or Gaydar profiles, that’s just horrible (although perhaps it wastes time of those to whom I will reply with polite version of “no”). I don’t find it wrong to put notes about preferred age or fitness though – I think that’s normal.
And just a final bit, I have Pakistani friends and friends who are much older than me, etc – so this “racism” of mine is ONLY about sex (and yes, I know how similar this sounds to infamous “I have gay friends” – but in my case it is actually true).
Reading some of the comments make my stomach turn. Its a flash back of seeing those bunch of ads on gay dating sites with derogatory remarks about not being interested in .
I always thought preferences were so limiting. (Well not always, but read on and I’ll explain. )Gay people are already being pushed around. Then it comes worse when we do it to our own. I won’t lie. I used to be attracted to just white guys. Me being black, I just felt that being with a white guy was so much better than any other guy. Then one day when I was browsing online ads. It hit me. Why? What does a white guy has to offer that a guy from another race couldn’t.
It took a while to digest my self discovery. It probably will for those who go all out on defending their preferences. Reason it took a while, I was in denial about something being wrong with me. Its hard to admit you have a problem, because that means you have a fault. A fault equates to weakness. However. If you admit that you have a fault, such as this. You’ve already taken the first baby steps in patching that up.
I like big burly hairy guys. I know I can find that in any race. Though I don’t limit myself to those things. Those are just minor when I’m looking for someone to possibly go steady with.
I doubt my words of ‘wisdom’ would be taken seriously. Seeing how hardcore they are up and defending themselves. But if you don’t get anything out of this post. At least keep your preferences to yourself. Try to be mindful of how you project them. And finally, don’t close doors on possibilities. You may surprise yourself.
i like this article….hmm….not sure how to respond to this everyone has their preferences. I myself am black and gay. I actually have been with an asian guy, white guys, and a latino guy. I have never been with a black guy before, but before i start getting bashed, it is not because im not attracted to black guys. if i didnt think black guys were attractive then i’d have a pretty low self esteem and would find it hard to give myself to someone sexually…considering i would look at myself as unnattractive. No black guys have ever pursued me. I have tried to get with (for lack of a better term) black guys before but it hasnt worked out for me (same can be said for other races too) .Its all about chemistry. Honestly i used to think to myself, (never posted on sites because i wouldnt do that) that im not into asians, however i met an asian guy that i just couldnt take my eyes off of. I guess my point is discounting an entire race seems crazy. I’m not saying one is racist for it, i think that if someone has already come to the conclusion that one particular race will not produce someone that they can feel an attraction to, then there is a deeper underlying reason behind it. My current bf is white and he sought me out. His online profile said he wasnt into black guys…remember i am black. i talked with him as usual, and then asked if i wasnt his type then why did he message me thinking to start a relationship. his response verbatim: “yeah im sorry dude, i know i probably shouldnt say shit like that, but the thing is im not into the thug/gangsta black guys. most of the black guys on here are like that so i put that to avoid getting messages”. thought provoking right?
Mike i like the point you made, alot of black guys wont date other black guys, but get upset because the other races wont date them (same can be said for whites who dont date whites). Ill use the black guys as an example, since apparently i have free reign to because im black:P. How can you (a black guy into white guys) be upset that white guys are saying only into white guys when you yourself arent into black guys. its like 45yo men saying 18-30yo only…how can you expect them to be into you, if you yourself claim to not be into “you”
yes….digest that for awhile….its gonna feel great coming out in the morning:)
I find it sad how racist gay men are yet they beg for equal rights. I’m sure when Christians and straight people read this they are probably laughing they’re socks off. I am black/mexican and I have a strong attraction for white men but I am open to all race. When I read these negative comments on Grindr like “No blacks, No Asians” I immediately block those guys. Just state what you are looking for not put the type of guys you hate. It’s like if a straight guy or girl put in their profile “No gays wanted”. Why even have Gay Pride if gays are hating on each other, if we really want equal rights, gay marriage and benefits then lets stop the hate and come together as one. Otherwise we can forget about equality and rights. Just remember the sodomy law can come back and bite us in the ass and lets not forget Stonewall.
Sexuality have and will always be based on physical looks, what someone find attractive is subjective. One benefit from this i that most young and up to 50’s gay men will spend time to work out and make sure they stay in shape or else they wont get a chance..so this is good for their health right?
Gay men have always been nasty to each other but with the internet now its for everyone to see and its more in your face and direct..once upon a time it was just at the clubs.
There is KARMA, in gay years you age like dogs so by the time they are in their late 30’s its pretty much over for the meat market. Unless they have lots of money in which case they still can buy “hot” happiness. But most will just become the victim of the hurtful arrows that they once used.
I find these sites to be true to bigotry. If you are young and beautiful you can have it all if you are young white preppy, shaved/hairless, looking like you stepped out of a painting you can have even more! As a half black homosexual with a preference of wearing knee high boots Siouxsie shirts and punk attire I find it just a tad difficult in the gay world. Online the only white guys who show me attention have a fetish for thuggish black boys which I definitely do not fit into so my outlets are very limited. I try to find other guys in the subculture but they don’t give me the time of day because of the color of my skin. I used to be in a circle of other punk queers like myself being the only half black one in the circle and watched guys swarm them and not even give me the time of day. Growing up and coming out at 12 my parents were loving and accepting of me. My straight friends were accepting except for the one I fucked and he beat the shit out of me for being gay.
But when I became a part of the gay community I have been treated so terribly and treated like nothing. I felt more isolated and alone and was bullied more than I was in straight environments. I later became a part of the leather scene and was a little bit more accepted but I was still half black and guys treated me less than they would a white fetish punk.
Now I go online from time to time and if I had a nickle for as many profiles I see that state “no blacks” I would be rich. What’s even worse is people think I’m latino and hit on me until they find out I’m not latino. I even dated a guy who made sure my head was shaved so no one would know I was half black he told everyone I was peurto rican when I wasn’t around. When people asked my race he would talk over me saying he’s latino. After about a month of correcting him I dumped his racist ass.
The moral of this story is we spent years of hatred, bashings, murder, and extreme violence, to turn around and do the same to our own kind? Remember we are the most hated group of people by every culture, religion and world as a whole. We are a scapegoat for the world’s problems we are never going to be accepted by the world. Why must we make it harder on ourselves by treating each other badly for being different. It doesn’t matter if some of us have body hair, dress punk, have different skin color, or whatever we are all equal in the end and equally hated as well.
thanks kiwi, you are great. the lefty’s on here are well, sad and unfortunately exist
That fact remains that Bigots, racist and all around haters are never going anywhere. They will ALWAYS be here. So let them say what they want WHO CARES…. Toughen yourself up, what someone says to you or about you means NOTHING they are only words. You cant let words hurt you. Believe in yourself.
I value everyone’s views but I do wish Kiwi and you others would not name call or fight, that’s not debating, but anyway after reading all this and recognising it is an old article and the issue won’t go away I wanted to focus on one poster. The poster wrote that fat people bemoan that models won’t date them so why do they not date other fat people? As a fat person I don’t have an issue with the choice of others to avoid fat, but I have an issue with the assumptions, such as we don’t look after ourselves. Yes I want someone who isn’t fat, but, I date fat guys and they are fine and who knows if I’ll end up with a model, a fat guy, an Asian etc. Then again that view says oh hang on you are fat you cannot be picky. Wrong. I have had sex with guys that are way out of league. It’s often about context. If you put no fats I think that is ok, but don’t deny my choice to go after models. If I put no thins are you going to get up in arms and be hurt? Doubt it.
well, it may be true that gays are more racist than the straight men. a lot of straight men date a lot of asian women. but gays? they claim to be victims of prejudice yet if you are not a blonde blue eyed man, you’re shit. so sometimes gays deserve the prejudice they suffer for they are themselves prejudgemental. straight to bi-men like shemales and most shemales that pass as women are asians – that’s because asians are naturally petite and smooth. so you’ll never find a white gay and asian gay that are both flaming fags, one is always more masculine than the other – and when that happens, it’s madame butterfly experience.
The “society” has a huge influence on one’s preferences, and American society has taught us that the ultimate masculinity is White, straight, athletic, individual, a player, etc.
As for money: wealth is very closely associated with Whiteness. It is interesting that most of the desirable portrayals of gay men in the media have been not only overwhelmingly White, but also upper middle class.
So yes. The “society” shapes one’s standards and ideals of beauty and desire.
It is no wonder that Asian, Black, fem, fat gay men themselves often want men who are White, straight, athletic, etc.
@Little Kiwi: I’ve only read some of your comments, but I want to thank you for the insight. I’m learning to not degrade other people, even though I have to admit that it’s really hard because my beliefs and preferences have been shaped by years and years of societal influence. Thanks again.
I am a black guy and I think most (definitely not all) guys are mostly physically attracted to white guys because most guys are mostly physically attracted to white guys. It’s biological.
Oh c’mon. If you judge someone because of their race, then you’re a racist. Deal with it.
@Little Kiwi: You rock, man!
Sorry but it’s certainly not biological.
What we find attractive has so much to do with our experience.
It is understandable that gay men who grew up in America or any society with American influence in the 20th century got to be physically attracted to White guys, but it’s because pretty much everything around them associated Male Whiteness with everything you could ever desire, even if what you desire is mere “normalcy”.
Black and Brown men were portrayed as poor criminal thugs and Asian men as asexuals or effeminate.
Stop dancing around the truth you all know but are afraid to utter out loud because of the speech police on the Left telling everybody to feel equal. Yeah, right. Nothing in nature is equal. Nature is a hierarchy [Aristotle]. And white males are on top of that hierarchy. They have more value in the meat trade because  they belong to a race that has produced all the greatest creative minds in history, the da Vincis, the Newtons, the Aristotles, the Mozarts, the Shakespeares, the Teslas, the Raphaels, the Michelangelos, and hundreds more white males of equal creative genius, not one nonwhite or nonmale coming close to approximating white males at that level of intellect, the only level that counts, the only level that creates what we call civilization, the selfsame civilization that has rolled o’er the globe smothering all the piddling indigenous nonwhite cultures the achievements of which are laughable by comparison. But more importantly to the gay scene  white males are more attractive, with their singular, wondrously beautiful peaches-and-cream complexion and their wavy fair hair. All the other races are monotonously colored, nothing but black and brown, actually colorless, black and brown not being colors. The white race is the only truly colored race in all its variety of eyes and hair. Only the members of the white race are individuated from other members. Asians and blacks all look alike. In Hong Kong, looking out of my hotel window at the street below, with nothing but blackheads walking around it looked like an ant hill. And white males’ bodies are more proportional, perfect in every way, while nonwhite men have something bodily part that is deficient, like black men lacking well-developed calves and Asian men having undeveloped, almost feminine hands. As well, white men’s facial features are uniquely chiseled. Only white males have deep-set eyes, for instance, that give them a natural, wonderful eye shadow. Blacks and orientals have flat eyes, even eyes that bug out like insects or frogs. Ugh! White males like Latin men, however, for their features due to their European ancestors, the conquistadors. And blacks and Asians obsessively pursue white men for sexual partners, too, especially blondes. They know who’s the most attractive, if liberal Democrats continue to delude themselves. All this prattle about power structure being maintained by the preference for white males as sexual partners is a compensatory coping strategy for blacks and Asians feelings of racial inferiority, especially their knowing that they are not physically attractive as white males. All the caterwauling about how unfair it is won’t change a thing. Who was it who said “life ain’t fair”? And why should it be? Fairness is a moral term which cannot be logically defended. What blacks and Asians should do is learn to accept their lower lot in life in the gay world. That’s what psychologists would tell them to do. Self-acceptance is the first step to contentedness.
This is all good but i dig guys alot. If the time is right ooh well wilkes co. Nc man here so cum in and say hi! My name is chris
It’s all about the approach and words used.
I’m white and tend to only go for white guys when it comes
Physical attraction. On a dating site, app, ect. You are entitled
to have a preference. How you come acrossed is another story.
Simply putting into white guys is different than putting no blacks,
asains, mexicans, ect.
The femmes. fats, queens, ect is just stupid.
Clearly people in shape want the same. people want someone
With similar interests. People have preferences. It’s a personal thing that has nothing to do
It doesn’t change that people need to be better people.
So much hate already out there against gay people and
we tear down each other. Thats in public places gay men
tend to be unpleasant.
My opinion if you’re on a hookup site. Get over it, you’re
On there looking for your preference. It doesn’t mean
it’s going to work with every guy you find attractive.
Let’s be real. Preferences are what constitutes the “community” and we need to accept, if not embrace, that fact.
General gay men preferences. Men who are:
18-29 years old
Be endowed by at least “x” inches
If you are over 30, not an Adonis, or don’t have at least one recent Apple product, you are automatically no longer part of “the community” and are written off as dead.
We must establish as a “community” set a standard of what gays want in men using this list in its entirety or in sections. We should not be ashamed to establish a common set of preferences. It would make being gay much easier and realistic. We do it now already, now let’s make it official!
@estaban: Ok you officially said the most ignorant load of bullshit I have ever read. You not only neglected to read your history because just because certain people were painted white doesn’t mean they were white. Lets take William Shakepear for instant. He was black European if you read any history books out there that wasn’t re-written like ignorant pieces of shit like you you will see that in black and white. Beethoven yeah he was black too.
Not only are you ignorant you can’t even paragraph your ignorance making people lose interest in anything you have to say. You really are a sad existence of a human. Hell even Jesus is described as multi-racial with his woolen hair and dark skin but I am far from Christian.
Before you talk about white people being the supreme race look in your family tree. If you are an American citizen with family that dates as far as the 1700’s you will find a raped slave in the mix. Not to mention native American.
Just because you have “Peaches and cream” skin and straight hair doesn’t mean you are smart and attractive.
I swear I have more respect for KKK and Neo-nazis compared to ignorant fucks like you because they at least just hate people that aren’t white for the sake of being not white, but you just tried to sound educated and intellectual with your hate speech.
Let me just paraphrase for you dear, Nazis and KKK will kill people like you faster than they would a normal black, asian, or jew. So you can go to hell because we’re all hated equally. It’s ok to prefer white over black, hell I’m mixed white and black, wear knee high boots with white laces in them and a shaved head and proclaim myself a SHARP (Skin-Head Against Racial Prejudice) and I predominately date whites. I personally don’t prefer blacks or Asians, not because of their race but they just aren’t my thing.
But to justify racism with shotty history is just plain stupid.
White guys are very popular because of the better-looking and so-rich-looking.
Asian guys are not very popuar because of the not so good-looking (squirt eyes) and so-poor-looking.
White guys even white gals are making fun of Asians/Pacific Islanders for their looks. They’re so SUPERIOR even they don’t care which is true…..
White guys do likes Black Guys at the Sex Club in my own eyes.
Gay White Sex- A LOT (Popular)
Gay Latino Sex – A LOT (Popular)
Gay Black Sex- A LOT (Popular)
All of em’ are LUCKY. WHOO-WHOO!.
Asian Sex- ZERO (Not so popular) that’s UNLUCKY. HaHaHaHa!.
Nobody likes Asians, Pac Islanders or Philipinos.
Does that provide “liberal” certificate, because you date Latino ? Latino features can vary to great extent. And the one who are considered desirable are those who are basically white with a tan. That means facial features (cheekbones, brow ridge, eye socket) are largely similar to whites.
White and Latino guys with whiter skinned are always better couple. ;)
Both likes HUNG MEN.
White guys loves Mexican Food. WHOO-WHOO!.
What I’ll never understand is why any intelligent minority within the so-called gay “community” would ever show any actual support to gay politics, gay causes, etc. You may think it behooves you to fight for gay equality because you are gay too, but get real. White people (male and female) are the primary ones reaping the benefits of winning on those controversial issues such as gay marriage, adoption, military etc. As they are the ones with the advantage when it comes to even being desired for relationship, they are the ones who have more at stake if gay marriage fails, if that cute white couple can’t adopt that black baby, if Chad can’t talk openly about his boyfriend while fighting a war, if gay sexual relationships in general are accepted or not by straights. Point is, there is no gay community – just white homosexuals and homosexual allies. If not a part of the former, I would strongly suggest dissolving the alliance, radically reshape values ie. abandon the materialism, lookism and sexual objectification that is the very source of this issue to begin with, begin valuing platonic relationships with other gay minorities and not allow yourself to victim of a highly dysfunctional “community” by making the mistake of thinking you’re a part of it.
@morrigan: He’s just a troll, ignore him. Other trolls on here include mesohappy, JayKay, and Lefty.
@Little Kiwi: I’d also like to say THANK YOU! You really brought out the ugly truth. It was obvious that those arguing with you just didn’t want to admit or accept anything you said, even when you repeated it over and over they still kept making excuses. So again, thank you for all your comments :) I know this article is from over a year ago now, but it’s definitely a big problem that I’ve noticed A LOT within this past year, on ANY gay related app or site.
I’m a Uzbek Jew, living in California. I think I’m handsome with grey eyes and blonde hair. But, I feel discriminated, when I message a white guy or hit on a white guy in a club/bar. I don’t really get why? I’m masculine and young. But I NEVER get any attention from white guys. Sometimes, they disrespect me or whenever, I tell them where I am from, they just bail me.
@didi22: I ag@morrigan: They aren’t your thing? Because, you don’t like them for their race!
If society is so white washed what makes you and many others so immune? What about blacks that don’t date whites, or white that do? If a preference is a byproduct social upbringing it still IS THEIR PREFERENCE because they are still the one’s with the preference, no matter it’s cause. @ Little Kiwi, you’re a fit guy, is you desire to be healthy and maintain a nice figure a product of society? Is that suppose to be a bad thing? Where exactly are you getting this from anyway? I haven’t seen any sort of actual research on this. I’m open to google query suggestions.
“Orientations are innate. Concepts of attraction are societal.”
Isn’t an orientation a concept of attraction? How is it that a person can only ever be naturally attracted to to various gender based features but racial ones are only social?
Despite the apparent innateness of sexual orientation by definition it is still sexist. It just means non pansexuals are born sexist.
Did you ever think that maybe the reason people don’t acknowledge why they are attracted to certain races is because their is no social aspect to it for a lot of them?
I’m not denying that there is a perpetuation of white beauty in the world, but I say… so what?
I love chocolate products, horror movies, anime, vanilla ice cream and action computer games. Should they all be scrutinized for their potential sociological causes(which they probably have none?
I prefer fit white guys around my age(as a black guy)but if I fall in love with a 50 yr old black obese women it is what it is, until then there is nothing wrong with my racial preferences.
@tookietookie: Thank you tookietookie for reflecting my thoughts exactly. How can we move forward without loving our gay neighbors.
By the end of this decade and possibly sooner, I believe a dating site for gay men will require a full DNA analysis to list someone’s genetic attributes for finding a mate. This will level the playing field for many who believe (and indicate in the profiles) that they are perfect people who deserve other perfect people.
When this happens, only 1% (or less) of the gay population will be able to score a perfect 10. Age may or may not be a factor. However, some attributes that will separate the genetically perfect 1% may be items like the following:
1) Eye color, Hair color, and Skin resistance to cancer.
2) Intelligence as a genetic trait. Is your IQ above average?
3) Disease Resistance (resistant to HIV and hep) as in CCR5-delta32
4) Body Weight Mass – Stature Tall Swimmers Body
5) Genetic likelihood of mental disorders (any bipolar or borderline personality disorder cases in your family?)
6) Aging Factor (- 2.5 to 5 years) Will your face look 40 when you are 45? There are genetic codes that allow some men to appear more mature earlier than others. This works against you as you age. Some men age slower than others due to genetic coding.
7) How long will you live? Will your prospective partner live to be 95?
8) Likelihood to develop Alzheimer?
9) Likelihood to develop prostrate cancer?
10) Famous relatives?
Now that DNA analysis is reaching commodity pricing, I expect to see some gay dating site offer analysis and matching based on a set of (non disputable) genetic attributes.
And for the rest of us less than perfect humans, there will be the “B-list” sites.. :-)
@notyourbabydaddy: LOVE that. xD I know a middle eastern guy with reddish hair. He doesn’t little middle eastern at all, unless you’re familiar with the different types of hair/skin that can come out of that region. Like red-headed Italians, Jews, etc. Its surprising.
@littlewiki what Ive also hear is guys that will say I will not date a black or Asian or have sex with them whatever but they will turn around and say Ill date Chris Brown or Morris Chestnut ….maybe its because those blacks have a high price tag or famous I dont know but thats crazy to me
Well i think this articale is just malarky, i have NO problem at all with anyone on grinder, this is the honest truth that even guys that put no black, fems, etc. on thier profile, i have constanly hooked up with, it all depends on how you look and apparently i have a pleasant face and body, BEAUTY breaks all boundaries and prejudist. So if you find yourself having a problem snagging that cute white guy are what have you make sure you look great in your pics and in real life!!
@Little Kiwi: So what if society has contributed to the perception of beauty? Is that a bad thing?
Need an account? Register It's free and easy.
Meet The Adorable Boyfriend Duo That Dresses CFDA Icon Of The Year Rihanna
PHOTOS: Vintage Fashion Ads From The 1980s
PHOTOS: Uptown, Downtown and Upside Down at the New York Boylesque Festival
PHOTOS: Gay Cowboys Lasso The American West
PHOTOS: Idina Menzel Back on Broadway in If/Then