VIEWPOINTS — “This time, however, something had changed. Gay people were finally sick and tired of hearing that they should accept inferior status. When Prejean stated that she hoped not to offend anyone, the truth was she had. For the first time, it was no longer acceptable to repeat this mantra in polite company. Anti-gay commentators were quick to point out the hypocrisy of gay activists. They wondered why Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were allowed to say the exact same thing as Prejean while gay activists kissed their rings. The short answer is that Sam Brownback, Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee weren’t in the beauty contest. If they had been, Ms. Prejean may have seemed like a pleasant alternative.” —Wayne Besen on the hypocrisy of denouncing Miss California Carrie Prejean while falling head over heels with Barack Obama [Truth Wins Out]
Sampson
Ah, I see what you’ve done there. Well done.
Wayne
I don’t “hate” either of them. But either way, you can’t call me a hypocrite. I’ve called out Obama for his support of bigotry against gays, just as I have with crazy Miss Cali.
strumpetwindsock
Hypocrites? Why not just say what you mean and start calling us traitors?
There are already enough soapbox-jumpers in here who are making that accusation of anyone who doesn’t follow their party line.
Why be coy about playing to that demographic? Start up a new regular feature: Thought Criminal of the Day
ChristopherM
You are greatly discounting the power of someone who can complete a sentence.
Alec
Well, it’s like this: She thinks being gay is a choice. I doubt she supports any rights for gay couples, or bans on discrimination against gays. So let’s table the question of whether or not the marriage stance makes you a bigot: There’s no doubt in my mind that opposing the other stuff makes you one.
wowjustwow
Yes they’re exactly the same. Why, I have trouble even telling them apart! They’re so same-y.
Observer1000
President Obama does NOT have the same view as Miss CA. He prefers civil unions for same-sex couples over marriage. He NEVER supported taking the right of marriage away from same-sex couples in CA by Prop 8. This is a yet another lie being perpetrated by the anti same-sex marriage crowd.
Having said that, Miss CA has now made it more difficult for President Obama to voice his support of civil unions over same-sex marriage.
Chitown Kev
@Observer1000:
Obama and Clinton do support everything but the name “marriage.” Obama and Clinton also support civil rights for gay people. I doubt that this CUNT supports anything regarding gay civil rights.
So I guess the question really is whether one feels that gay civil rights=marriage and marriage only or whether gay civil rights= employment protections + hate crimes protections + marriage equality + …and the list goes on.
Chitown Kev
@Observer1000:
I agree with you that Obama cannot continue to support a seperate but equal status as far as the marriage issue is concerned
Cass
Really Queerty? To compare Barak Obama who, you might have noticed, has quite a bit to balance, with a empty-headed beauty pageant queen and use the old “we’re just quoting someone else ploy” is irresponsible and incredibly jerk-offish.
You are the worst.
HeteroDefenseLeague
You all only attacked Prejean, bashed her and spewed your narrow minded, intolerant hate at her along with the threats of physical violence and death threats at this Chiristian woman because you all are a bunch of hypocritical, narrow minded, mean spirited, criminal, terroristic, hate mongering Christian-phobic bigots.
strumpetwindsock
@Chitown Kev:
There is also the fact that politicians cannot operate with the same freedom as members of the public.
Churchill was right when he said that sometimes the truth is so important that it ust be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies. Remember Roosevelt campaigning for non-involvement in WW2 while supporting the allies?
I’m not excusing areas where Obama has dropped the ball (and there are some) but it should be remembered his administration is working with some very complicated balances.
But more to the point of the article – branding people as hypocrites based on one issue is a great way to build a gay community dedicated to tearing itself apart and doing nothing to deal with our enemies.
Alec
@HeteroDefenseLeague: We also drink blood and control the United Nations. You seem to forget those items, I just wanted to make sure you don’t miss out in your next post.
HeteroDefenseLeague
Alec, in regards to your last comment, I would really like to stay and have a coherent conversation with you, but excuse, me, I have an appointment back on planet earth.
Alec
@HeteroDefenseLeague: That’s too bad. This will be your first visit, I expect?
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@strumpetwindsock:
This is sooo David’s blog now. Japhy wouldn’t be this bad. David is really, really anti-obama and a lot more snarky and gossipy…
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@ ALL
Come on…
Having a discussion about the first black president of the most powerful and used to be hated country on earth that has represented what IS wrong with capitalism and greed but now with Obama has altered WORLD opinion and a died blonde haired girl who’s had a bad nose job to prob hide her greek roots (look at her sister) and who came second in a beauty pageant and made press because she says gays are gay by choice?
Er, right.
Alec
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): I think you must be right. I have a feeling I’m going to miss Japhy quite a bit….
Or I’ll just leave.
Dabq
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Anti-Obama is an understatment, every Obama thread seems as though its been written by Glenn Beck and the other neo-cons.
Timmeeeyyy
While Obama and Clinton are far more favorable views on gay rights than Ms. Prejean, Wayne Besen is right in that we should be asking for more from our elected officials Obama and Clinton, namely, equal (not separate) rights. I think that’s a legitimate criticism, so I’m not sure why everyone is attacking Besen so vehemently.
Cam
So she thinks being gay is a choice? Well first of all…she is stupid. but lets just pretend that she is right and it is a choice….um…so is RELIGEON and I don’t see anybody saying that Catholics or Baptists shouldn’t be allowed to marry.
Chitown Kev
@Timmeeeyyy:
Actually, I agree wholeheartedly with Besen. David’s headline is sucking all of the juicy juioce out of what Besen is actually saying though. People should follow the link and read Besen’s argument in it’s entirety.
Dennis
This is one of the LAMEST ideas for an article/thread I’ve seen on Queerty yet…but if I say I like Queerty, but don’t like this article, I guess I’m a hypocrite…LAME!
Cam
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): You said “Having a discussion about the first black president of the most powerful and used to be hated country on earth”
_____________________________________________________________-
I’m sorry, but there is no WAY in Europe that we were hated more by the Brits than France, and more by the other European countries than Germany. It just couldn’t happen. There hatred for us was new and cute…like puppy love, but the British hatred for France, and the overall European hatred for Germany is like a long term bitter old marriage. It may not seem as intense as freash puppy love but it runs deep and festering. 😉
Oh, and thanks for sending Posh Spice over here….we’re not going to forget you did that to us.
Alec
@Chitown Kev: After reading it, I think I can agree 100% with this part:
The real winner, of course, was Perez Hilton, who is now as much a household name as Paris Hilton.
And I think that was part of the plan.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Cam:
You love her! KEEP her! And Beckham! Ew! But he’s in Italy now isn’t he….
Yeah we hate the French and yes the Germans…I said the WORLD not silly England were they have this OBSESSION with hating Germany and France!
@Alec:
What do you mean part of the plan? OF COURSE it’s part of the plan! Have you been on Perez???
That was what I was saying, this is he schtick, it’s WHAT he does and it’s a BONUS he happens to be gay because it brings more attention to gay rights.
Love him or hate him, he is a phenomenom. I’ve been saying this…no one in their right mind Alec though Perez was anything but about himself. We were arguing, ‘so what?’ At least he does something..which is why I used egotists like Al Sharpton to explain my point even though it was very general…
I was trying to explain to you that fine line between ego vs activism.
At least Perez calls himself an attention whore, what about Sharpton and all those other creepy pastors/politcians/oprah like subsidies who are CONSTANTLY in our faces??
Please…
Alec
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Right. We’ve had this discussion before. I really don’t want him as a spokesman for me. He doodles penises on the faces of celebs. Sarah Silverman would make mince meat of both of these clowns in two seconds.
I love Sharpton. He’s no Al Sharpton.
rogue dandelion
@Timmeeeyyy: Exactly!
but more to the point, she doesn’t know any better. i have know doubt that someone of her demonstrated intelligence actually believes in opposite marriage with all her heart.
Our elected officials: hillary, barack, and joethebiden most prominently- all know better. They cynically espouse a bigoted position and we give them a pass.
An airhead the color of tangerine says something stupid in a beauty pagent contest- and for that we get upset?
the rest of you are making assumptions on her stance on other gay rights issues- UM, do you think she knows of other gay rights issues? really? I’d be surprised if she knew her way out of a bag.
Alec
And if you want to see what intense hatred of a country and its nationals looks like, try visiting East and Southeast Asia and getting people’s opinions on Japan. Never got that impression from the French.
Alec
@rogue dandelion: It’s a big game. When a Democratic candidate like Kerry says he prefers civil unions, after denouncing DOMA as “gay bashing on the senate floor” as early as 1996, we all know they’re playing politics.
BTW, did you see Kerry’s speech at the Democratic convention last year? Where was that guy in 2004???!
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec: @Dabq:
I know!
It’s soo relentless and personal. I’m all game for a good debate, but then what? We all hate Obama and then the sky turns pink and we all have money??
I understand calling people out but I also want an article that if it will discuss such issues would at least be more bright and intelligent.
The Gay Numbers
a) I have said Obama’s support of civil unions is bigotted because it is separate but equal, and under the law, this is difficult if aimpossible to administer. I believe we need to push hard for marriage equality.
b) There is a difference between pushing a politician who is not 100 percent with me versus addressing a woman who does not believe I should have any rights under the law at all. I can not believe this needs to be said.
c) If you don’t know the difference between no rights and some rights- that sums up the confusion I see often here when you will treat Domestic Partnership the same as Civil Unions the same Marriage. These are not interchangeable ideas. Until now. I assumed you were using them as shorthand.
rogue dandelion
@Alec: kerry has conviction now, and when he was young activist against the war- just about every time other than when he was running for president. During his presidential run he twisted himself into a pretzel for a those “late deciders” and lost by 90,000 Ohioan votes to the greatest idiot and worst president the world has ever produced.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
I knooow he’s no Sharpton! I actually loathe him but it’s not for his loudness but he’s selective reporting and the fact he stood up for Paris Hilton when she was saying f*g this and n*gga this..but in all fairness, no other gay blogs or gays have stopped loving her?
I hate the guy and I will use him as I wish.
@rogue dandelion:
But so what? Do we have to care about her? Do you care about me? I’ don’t have bad died blonde hair and aim to physically represent a look that is fake and superficial and somewhat oppresive to many women or wish to participate in an event that is stemed from judging the way women look and behave that I’m sure would have an effect on little janey who’s getting some major eating disorder at the OBSESSIVE objectifying of women in the world…
But I work relentlessly with kids who are ignored, bullied, not liked, not pretty nor very thin…
Will I gain as much for your passion as this wonderful woman that will finally bring piece to the middle east…??
The Gay Numbers
Alec and John from England
Thanks for pointing out who is writing these columns. They are really poorly reasoned anlaysis in terms of facts. It’s one thing to say Obama is bigotted for saying separate but equal, and quite another to pretend that his position is the same as another person who believes in no rights at all. It’s like there is a deliberate effort here to lie. This site is going down hill.
Alec
@The Gay Numbers: I can’t tell if it is a deliberate effort to lie or stems from confusion. The legal landscape is confusing enough, without people who should know better contributing to that confusion.
Re: Separate but equal. If it was like in the UK, where they call it “partnerships” but the population treats it like marriage, well…not perfect, but not intolerable. I do raise my eyebrows a bit when Obama talks about the “sacredness” of sexuality, though….if only because the audience he is trying to reach can’t possibly assume he means gay sex.
Alec
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): That’s fair. I never much cared for Paris Hilton but celebs and the surrounding gossip doesn’t much interest me. I think it is all a bit obscene, which means that someone like Perez Hilton was always going to be on my shitlist.
Bertie
I like blacks and women I just don’t personally believe they should vote.
That ^ is no different than “I have gay friends but don’t think they should have civil marriage and equal protections under the law though they pay the same (or more) amount of taxes.”
wake up you self-hating homos —
Obama is a hypocrite who grabbed your vote and thought of the Clinton million$ he could make as guest speaker after his shitty term is done.
He has and will do NOTHING for gays.
wake up and stop critizing people like Perez Hilton and others who DO take the time to yell for equal civil rights in the good ol’ USA.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
I know but popculture is having a greater effect on society then it ever has..
Pop/celeb is the new god…at least in the UK, you guys are STILL into god..
I’m not saying join them but understand the medium that is able to reach so many homes that don’t read at all, are spoonfed information and watch FOX news religously…
Alec
@John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): The tabloids are pervasive here as well. And blogs, facebook, myspace and twitter are clearly captivating the young (which includes me, in most estimates; I’m only 26). But I really dislike it and there’s no way in hell I’m going to endorse or support Hilton. He’s part and parcel of everything that is wrong with America’s obsession with nonissues, and this goes beyond gay rights. The new opiate of the masses is tabloid journalism, with Fox being the trailblazer and the celeb gossip sites not terribly far behind.
strumpetwindsock
@Chitown Kev:
Yeah, the original raises some valid points. My problem is with this site’s synopsis, in particular the inflamatory word “hypocrites”.
The Queerty headline appeals to the worst sentiment in our community – splitting hairs in order to create infighting and denunciations – without the context of the original piece.
Do some people have high hopes of Obama? Of course. But I haven’t read too many opinions giving him an unreserved free pass.
What bugs me more is the notion that we should start labeling each other hypocrites based on a single issue (and not even a direct comparison at that). There’s enough of a problem of that happening in here as it is.
Obama’s behaviour is not the central issue to me (that is being hashed out on a regular basis in threads anyway).
What I object to is shitty sensationalist pieces that play into the hands of idealogues. If I were a conspiracy theorist I might think this article was planted by an anti-gay mole to keep us pointing fingers at one another and ignoring real issues.
Except I’m sure the real conspiracy theorists and hard liners will lap this story up like a dog after its own vomit.
getreal
Boy you would think President Obama was a conservatives homophobe republican from reading this site. I wonder if they would have gone easier on MCcain who actually has a history of helping disenfranchise LGBT people at every opportunity in his career.
The Gay Numbers
Alec:
I think a lot of Americans have no idea what is involved in the legal issues concerning marriage. They really do think of it in political, religious and emotional terms (including too many gay people) rather than as a body of civil laws.
As for the UK, the key difference is that it is a not a federal system. Therefore, regardless of what happens in any one state here, we can never become equal without federal and interstate rights. For example, let’s say a gay couple in Iowa moves to the state right across the border. Their rights in that other state may not be applied in the outter state courts.
Alec
@getreal: Not quite THAT bad yet, but yes, the focus seems off. Perhaps because they fired Japhy.
Alec
@The Gay Numbers: Agreed.
And my point about partnerships still stands. If Congress passed a civil unions law (and gave it teeth with the Commerce Clause, which I think would be upheld by the courts), we’d have virtually the same thing.
The Gay Numbers
Alec:
That would still be the issue of the application of the law by the court which treats laws differently and would inevitably lead to variance in application between entities.
Why did they fire Japhy? I thought he was doing a good job.
Alec
@The Gay Numbers: No idea why they fired Japhy.
In theory, there might not be a difference in the courts. I could easily imagine legislation that required states to give gay couples all the rights of marriage, and making the requisite factual findings for Commerce Clause (and perhaps Section 5 under the 14th amendment) purposes.
On the other hand, the legislation could be struck down on a commerce clause theory. So there you have it. I’m more interested in the rights associated with marriage than I am in the name, although I recognize that private entities (hospitals, etc.) often don’t treat civil unions the same way. Which leads to a “separate but equal” problem.
But, I’m mostly interested in denial of rights to same-sex couples. Which is what most of the bigot amendments did, and the absolute refusal of the gay rights lobby to distinguish between, say, Prop 8 in CA and FL’s “marriage” amendment frustrates me to no end.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Alec:
I’m 28 and felt like crying when this kid I was mentoring had never heard of Legend or Labryinth… 🙁
@The Gay Numbers:
I think Japhy had too much fairness in his pieces…and I wouldn’t be surprised if David wanted him to dumb down or be more reactionary…
The style of content has gone back to being very much like it was before Japhy..with Andrew and David..
So saying that, David always had an agenda and vision for Queerty..and although Japhy brought people in..he was able to utilise on that, sack him and get the platform for that single minded snarky agenda…
Just crossing the “t’s” and dotting the “i’s”..
🙂
@getreal:
Indeed
The Gay Numbers
Alec
What I am describing it not theory. It’s application of laws and their impact in the real world. For example, creating a new entity would require many private sector organizations to restructure their legal requirements, and cost a great deal of money. This again is not theory. Look at NJ. The point is that it leads to confusion because, at least in part, the law pressumes that entites given a different name are meant to be treated separately and differently. Each time a case comes up, how would you handle the issue of both marriage and parternships? For example, in the New York state, the courts recently decided issues relating to custody of a minor. How would you handle this legally when a straight couple is involved with the prior laws set up for it will differ from civil union laws which may require new law. I am not even getting into the constitutionality of your idea (I think what you describe would not be constitutional since it would be greater powers than the federal government now possess regarding state laws relating to marriage.). There are some real problems that will start popping up now that more and more states are creating civil unions or marriage. In theory, a repeal of DOMA and the exercise of full faith and credit should handle some of it, but there are others in within state that may become difficult to address. There is a body of law for marriage. There is no body of law for partnership or civil unions. Typically , because part of law related to marriage is state based, I do not see how this can be addressed easily. Marriage is, as we keep forgetting, a combination of state, federal , international and interstate issues. The law is well settled in many ways about what rights accrue due to marriage. The law is not settled for the other entities. Those cases would have to be litigated to determined.
The Gay Numbers
John
That’s sad if true. I guess I will have to visit this site less. My thing is we need less snark, but I get what they are doing- they are trying to get eye balls to the screen. that’s the name of the game in online media.
Alec
@The Gay Numbers:
Okay, we need to be careful here:
The law presumes no such thing. I assure you, gay couples are treated like straight couples in CA. We really are arguing about a name. What is true, unfortunately, is that private institutions (hospitals come to mind) DO treat couples differently. This is the same problem addressed by Brown v. Board of Education; separate is rarely equal in application.
It should be constitutional, given how the courts have treated discrimination and the commerce clause in the past. It is a bit of a frontier, I grant you that.
The law is not settled for the other entities.
No, but usually the civil unions laws expressly provide for tracking development in marriage and family law for civil unions. Courts then simply apply the same formula.
Anthony in Nashville
@Alec:
Japhy Grant left? Damn, I have not been paying attention.
I read that whoever owns this site closed down their other blogs, I had not made a connection to impending changes at Queerty.
Michael W.
@John from England: Where do you get the idea that David’s intentions are so malicious? He might have enjoyed Japhy’s work but couldn’t afford to keep him on the payroll. There have been a few other layoffs and he had to place his main site, Jossip, on hold afterall.
I wouldn’t go assuming that it’s all apart of some vindictive plot. Then again David doesn’t tell us shit so any rumors out there will be allowed to persist.
sal
now that’s thinking that we or i have given Obama this so called free pass…….i think he is full of it too on this issue,no apologies.i always say that he needs to take the positive side of history and forget the majority and follow the constitution that gives equal rights to all peaceful citizens of America
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@Michael W.:
I didn’t say they were malicous? It’s just business. Like I said, I’m just making sense of it having come by this site for a while and been around when the whole internet boom started.
Like I said, this site is back to being snarky to when Andrew and David just did it…
So?
Anyway, it looks like he’s employed other people…look at the masthead..
@The Gay Numbers:
Exactly.
I know many people who’ve said shit about me cause they worked for my business and disagreed with stuff..but I just think that Japhy’s way of stuff was less snarky bitsy reactionary news and more reporting and news..he was a proper writer wasn’t he?
sal
…If he stands by hate history will show him as a failure for not taking a positive step for the civil rights issue of our time where there are two blatantly different classes in that country based on difference.history has examples to show him that:-1950’s, even when the majority was for segregation the president and the courts vision override the will of the majority to give equality to the minority,thanks to this vision mr obama was able to go to school and inevitably run and win the highest office ,something that was once a just a dream for my ancestors.
Chitown Kev
Well, hell, I’ll do an article here and there just to get some clips. Is Queerty accepting any submissions? If so, what are your specifications?
The Gay Numbers
Alec
The law does pressume that things are named differently for a reason. There is no way that couples in CA are treated the same because marriage is not just a matter of CA law. Since laws as much about how they impact the private sector, your statement there reinforces my point about how the law treats different things differently.
You also pressume the basis of the federal action would be discrimination. To find discrimination they would have to apply equal protection analysis in a way that’s favorable to gays. To do that, would mean that marrriage would be the preferred choice given the 50 years of juris against separate but equal at the federal level. I don’t understand your argument here under those circumstances. It is more likely if they choose your route that they would be avoiding equal protection analysis since it would open a pandora’s box to all minority groups under equal protection analysis.
There is simple formula to apply because the law in this area is new. It normally takes decades for the law to adequately settle legal questions. We should be clear about terms here. When I speak of law, I mean inside of states, interstate, federal and international. I also mean the impact of those laws on private entities. Everyone of those questions would have to be addressed to ensure equality. Without addressing eachof these issues, one can not guarantee true equality. it is in effect an administrative nightmare that will cost a given gay couples thousands of dollars more than a straight couple for near equivalent, but not completely equivalent rights.
The Gay Numbers
Chi
The requirements re that the article needs to be sensationalistic and miss leading. If you can work in Obama, hates gays and a dead rentboy found in the White House- perfect!
Synnerman
I do not agree with Besen, mainly because they are to completely different public figures with different responsibilities to their constituencies.
By joining NOM, Prejan has jumped on the hate train. Obama is a politician and a savvy one, who knows when battles need to be picked and how to leverage for maximum support. It is nothing like being a beauty queen.
razz
it’s true though. i think, people are too infatuated with their first black president that, speaking against him would seem impolite, i think that’s why he have a free pass on the gay marriage comment.
alot of the arguments as to why gay rights is not placed front and center right now is due to the economy, president obama himself said, it might take him more than a term to fix the economy, so that technically means we won’t see any progress in terms of the passing of hate crime legislation anytime soon. maybe he’s saving it for the very last few months when he might run for 2nd term, then he would probably wave that gay agenda to the queens as leverage. you know how the queens are infatuated with him.
HeteroDefenseLeague
Prejean is another in a long list of victims of the hate filled, bigoted, radical hate mongering Homosexual Agenda. You homosexual bigots are just trying to bully her along with the threats of physical violence by you homosexual Christian bashing bigots directed at her because you want to deprive her of her civil rights to engage in freedom of thought. What hate filled, ignorant fascists you are!.
It is why we need hate crime laws to protect us from your hate and bigotry.