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Hillary Clinton: Eliminating Persecution of Gays is a ‘Pillar of our Foreign Policy’

Sec. of State Hillary Clinton said she simply “had” to take a question from a man wearing an “I Love Hillary” tee at a Q&A session at the European Parliament in Brussels earlier today. And what did this young man want to know? What, exactly, her boss (that would be President Obama) planned to do for gay men and women around the world. Hint: Clinton received a standing ovation at the end of her speech.

Responded Clinton: “Human rights is and always will be one of the pillars of our foreign policy. In particular, persecution and discrimination against gays and lesbians is something we take very seriously.”

A perfect answer, according to the Financial TimesBrussels Blog: “Clinton’s performance was brilliantly executed in that she pitched her message at exactly the level the European audience wanted. They wanted to hear an American talk like a European, and that’s what they got.”

As a brief reminder, Clinton:

• Voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment, which failed in the U.S. Senate by a vote of 49-48.
• Supports the repeal of the U.S. military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” provision, which her husband enacted as president
• Supports civil unions for gay men and women, to encompass “full equality of benefits [with] nothing left out,” but not full gay marriage
• Supports an employee non-discrimination measure that includes sexual orientation

By:           editor editor
On:           Mar 6, 2009
Tagged: , , ,
  • 57 Comments
    • Gregoire
      Gregoire

      Although I will always think President Hillary Clinton had a nice ring to it, I can’t help but think that things are happening as they are supposed to. Could you imagine Condi saying anything like what Hill said?

      Mar 6, 2009 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Calmer
      Calmer

      Why do you constantly have to bash Hillary Clinton??

      Mar 6, 2009 at 5:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      OK, who is the Shane Rollins looking cutie to the left of Hillary?

      Really good that Hillary is saying this, now let’s see Obama and Hillary begin to back this up at home and abroad.

      Mar 6, 2009 at 5:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • EdWoody
      EdWoody

      @Calmer: In what way does any of this constitute “bashing” Hillary? It’s pointing out her good record with LGBT issues and how she’s a good public speaker who knows what her audience wants to hear while backing it up with real action.

      Mar 6, 2009 at 5:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • atdleft
      atdleft

      @Gregoire: I guess… But hey, I can always wish for 2016. ;-)

      Mar 6, 2009 at 6:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • atdleft
      atdleft

      @Chitown Kev: Agreed! Come on, let’s get rid of DOMA already! And for that matter, DADT & legalized workplace discrimination also need to go.

      Mar 6, 2009 at 6:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WillK
      WillK

      Hillary will do more for gay rights than Barack will. As Chitown said, Actions speak louder than Words. I think she will do her best at promoting gay rights, but some real evidence cannot be argued with. It is just a question of when she will make her move.

      Mar 6, 2009 at 6:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Nick
      Nick

      Where’s Tank to tell us what she really meant to say?

      Mar 6, 2009 at 7:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pete
      Pete

      I feel Obama will be way more, uh, hesitant than Clinton would have been in pushing for gay rights as POTUS and she can only speak for his administration as Secretary of State, but I’m glad that she, at least, made a strong point on this. Actions do speak louder than words and for a while now she has shown she’s more than just “tolerant” of gays and equal rights.

      I’ll never forget that Barack couldn’t even be bothered to sit down with the Philly gay magazine while Hillary was more than happy too, including her line about not just being available not just as a presidential candidate but as a president (Yes, I know she didn’t win, but the fact she stressed this was important to me).

      Mar 6, 2009 at 8:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CHIP
      CHIP

      Such a shame…a few years from now when Hillary is no longer Secretary of State, she’ll host SNL and we’ll have a “What If Hillary was President?” sketch just like Al Gore did a few years after Bush won, and a majority of us will realize things could have been way much better if the votes broke the other way (or if the Democratic Primary system was the same as the Republican Primary system…)

      Mar 6, 2009 at 10:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • benjamin
      benjamin

      How exhausting for people to still be rehashing last year. Obama and Clinton on the same team. Move on people. SHE has. Why can’t you ?

      You will NEVER know what she would done better, worse or differently. We could talk for hours about that (and I could give you nice little counterfactuals).

      PS: But since you launched that Philly story thing, Queerty – this very blog – reported that the editor who complained about Obama was actually a Hillary donor. I don’t know if you remember how each side treated each other at that time but quite frankly I would put all of what he said back then in perspective. Also remember that Obama did not sit with specialty press for the whole first part of the primary campaign which drew criticism from other communities. He wanted to speak to everybody above the niche medias. You can criticize that choice but at least it was coherent and not related to gay rights.

      Mar 6, 2009 at 10:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • benjamin
      benjamin

      And sorry but I have to roll my eyes at Chip.

      Hillary’s problems last year is that she deserved better supporters and better advisors.

      And sorry to say but she is still heads-above all of you in terms of intelligence, maturity and class.

      You know whom you guys sound like ? The Palinistas who are still bitching about how the media was mean mean mean to Palin and what a world we would be in if she was President.
      God.

      From what you can see everyday, it seems Hillary and Obama get along quite well actually. So celebrate her great words on gay rights, definitely hold the administration to its promises but enough with the year-old recriminations that make you all look petty and sound so immature.

      Mar 6, 2009 at 10:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • bobito
      bobito

      @benjamin: Obama predicted during the primaries, when he was asked why he didn’t respond in kind to Hillary’s more aggressive attacks, they would be working on the same side as soon as the primaries were decided, no matter who was the nominee. Benjamin, you are spot on: She was not well-advised by her campaign staff – now that she is able to be herself again, as opposed to what her campaign staff convinced her she needed to be, Hillary has an opportunity to make a tremendous difference on human rights issues around the world, at least as much as she did when she was First Lady and Madeline Albright was Secretary of State (for those of us who can remember that far back). It’s not for nothing that she is still admired in Europe, even though the tone of her campaign for the nomination was a big turn-off to many.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 5:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jaime
      Jaime

      God you queens are exhausting!

      Mar 7, 2009 at 6:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ousslander
      ousslander

      Too bad her boss doesn’t feel the same way

      Mar 7, 2009 at 7:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sebbe
      Sebbe

      I’m so glad Hillary is a Secretary of State, she really was the best person for the job. And the difference after Condi, wheew.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 8:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      Hillary Clinton’s typically christian bigotry and refusal to support same sex marriage makes her as much a bigot as Bush or Obama. No surprise there, she’s a key leader of the Fellowship, a protestant version of Opus Dei and co-author, with Rick Santorum, of the infamous theocratic policy of using federal funds to bribe cult leaders under the guise of ‘faith based’ charities.

      http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics

      Will she run for president again? Is the pope Nazi? She’s saying what we want to hear to get votes, but she won’t do what needs to be done.

      Next time ask her to break relations with the Vatican becasue they’re bigots and because they rape little boys and girls.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 9:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tavdy79
      tavdy79

      Consider this: Obama has, at most, 8 years in office. When he leaves, the Dems will need someone who can pick up the baton and run with it – and Hillary could well be that person. She certainly has the skill-set needed (unlike a certain British politician, who was in much the same position as her for most of the last 12 years) and she’ll have plenty of opportunity to prove herself during her tenure as Secretary of State.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 10:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • InExile
      InExile

      Hillary rocks!!!

      Mar 7, 2009 at 12:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kit
      Kit

      @tavdy79:

      I agree. Everyone says Hillary will be too old to run in 2016 but I don’t buy it. If anything, age can be a real asset for a tough, ambitious woman. For all its screw ups her presidential campaign proved her viability and built a huge national support base for her. If she’s an effective and competent Sec’y of State I think she’ll have a real shot at the White House in 8 years.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 12:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hardmannyc
      hardmannyc

      Oh, I’m so glad Bill Perdue weighed in, because, you know, she’s only a tool of the capitlist war machine. Much more constructive to take pot shots at anyone who doesn’t the tow the line ideologically with you 100%.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 1:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian Miller
      Brian Miller

      @benjamin:

      And sorry but I have to roll my eyes at Chip.

      Hillary’s problems last year is that she deserved better supporters and better advisors.

      Yeah. If she had, maybe they could have magically convinced the Democratic Party’s head honchos to count every vote and nominate the candidate who actually received the most votes, rather than their preferred candidate who has already shown he’s in way over his head.

      And I say that as someone who isn’t a Democrat!

      Mar 7, 2009 at 2:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from  England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      @ousslander:

      WHO got her the job??

      Her BOSS?? Doh!

      WTF?!

      Mar 7, 2009 at 2:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from  England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      @Bill Perdue:

      I disagree with you a lot but I agree now! Why are people so gullible?? Politicians are…ahem…politicians?!

      Mar 7, 2009 at 2:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • echelon
      echelon

      One thing about Hillary that we know thus far is that she has no problem with change and going up against the odds. I don’t ever remember hearing a Sec. of State having such a public support for LGBT and we should be proud to have her in our corner.

      http://www.echelonmagazine.com

      Mar 7, 2009 at 5:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John in CA
      John in CA

      Has any Secretary of State actually been elected President?

      It seems like a fairly “dead end” job as far as campaigning for the presidency goes.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sebbe
      Sebbe

      @John in CA – Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, Martin Van Buren and James Buchanan were SOS before ascending to the presidency.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 7:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @hardmannyc: It’s too bad that some people like you not only excuse her bigotry, warmongering and devotion to the rich but actually think those are good things.

      She was in on the action when DOMA and DADT got passed and is a pigheaded opponent of same sex marriage. She supports the oil piracy war in Iraq and wants to attack Iran and is a firm supporter of the zionist policies of apartheid and ethnic cleansing committed against the Palestinians. She learned all about class warfare against working people and unions during the 5 or 6 she spent years on the Board of Directors of Wal-Mart.

      Is it any wonder you like her so much?

      Mar 7, 2009 at 8:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sebbe
      Sebbe

      Hillary is a realist. She evolves her (public) position as the public’s support allows (some may call this flip flopping) I call it growth and getting done what she can at that moment in time.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 9:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Sebbe: Hillary is a realist, Obama, Bush, Reagan and Bill Clinton are realists. But their ‘reality’ consists of vying to be the best handpuppet for the rich.

      So they learn to support wars of aggression because it’s realistically in the interests of the rich. The rich want the oil so the realists sent GIs out to die for Texaco and in the process killed more than a million Iraqis.

      And they learn to deregulate and feed trillions to the rich with bailouts and ‘stimulus’ packages while demand wage cuts and cuts in social services from working people. We desperately need socialized medicine but Hillary and the other realists oppose it because it’s not a ‘realistic’ way to profit the HMOs and the insurance and pharmaceutical conglomerates. .

      And realistically they understand that that almost half the voters refuse to choose between lesser evils and don’t vote. And they understand that gives added weight to the religious right who can turn out the bigot vote in impressive numbers. So their ‘realism’ requires that they to pander to bigots by killing ENDA and hate crimes and to refusing to repeal DADT and DOMA.

      That’s kind of warmongering, hand puppet of the rich, pandering to bigots is what got us into a recession-depression, an escalating war and an administration that has prayer writers as well as speech writers. http://www.alternet.org/rights/129920/is_obama_bringing_too_much_religion_into_the_white_house/

      Their realism is realpolitik and it’s sickening to watch.

      Mar 7, 2009 at 10:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Monica Roberts
      Monica Roberts

      Excuse me, but wasn’t this the woman who played the “race card” in South Carolina by having her husband claim “Jesse Jackson won this anyway!?”

      This is yet another pathetic attempt to move the conversation away from the EMERGENCY needs of the TransGender Community, which include:

      • Our surgically and hormonally differences must make us the CENTER of attention al ALL TIMES

      • A “african-american” transgender should be raised to the TOP of the culture and get most media attention of all.

      •The extreme difficulty of finding well fitting shoes.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 3:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • hardmannyc
      hardmannyc

      “warmongering, hand puppet of the rich, pandering to bigots”

      … But if you go talkin’ ’bout Chairman Mao
      You ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow.
      — John Lennon

      I realize that talking to you is worse than a brick wall (at least it’s pourous), but no one ever listens to you because you’re rigid and you only speak in agitprop soundbites.

      Oh, and Sebbe; People like Bill Perdue don’t believe that people are allowed to change their opinions or (gasp) evolve. That wouldn’t fit his narrowvision ideology.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 10:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      The Beattles were anemic. I always preferred the stones: I’ll shout and scream, I’ll kill the king, i’ll rail at all his servents. Jagger

      The point is she’s not going to change and it’s delusional to exptect her to recounce bigoted religion, racism, zionism, class war against working people and the oil piracy. Sne makes her money being a bigot, a racist, pro-zionist and pro war and by supporting the attack on working people.

      Nothng you said indicates anything else. She’s still all for that kind of sickening politics. Is that why you like her so much?

      Mar 8, 2009 at 12:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Bill Perdue:
      Sorry to break it to you Bill.
      I like their music too, but if you want to talk about ideology Sir Micheal backpedalled on that lyric when he accepted his knighthood.

      And while I couldn’t find a source that he actually voted for Maggie Thatcher (you may know the Queen was pissed off at her because her government was so far to the right), there are reports that he greatly admired her. He certainly deigned to sit down to tea with the Great Lady:
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/thatcher-makes-the-stones-respectable-1145170.html

      As for Hillary and Barack, (I am speaking generally here, not just to Bill) you should know that no one gets to that high an office – especially in your country – without having to make concessions to all sides. As Bill said, that is Realpolitik.
      Of course there are a number of Obama’s policies that I disagree with.. but he’s a damn sight better than the alternative, and like it or not you have to work with and lobby what you have. If you want to blame someone, blame yourself and the rest of your electorate, who were within a few percentage points of voting McCain in. In may ways you are lucky you have as good as you got.

      I agree our governments could do a lot better, and don’t live up to a lot of the hype we give them (Kennedy is a perfect example) but so long as we keep heating and lighting our homes, running cars and eating way more than we need we should realize we are collectively as much responsible for the evils of our government as the people who are ostensibly running the show.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 3:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      “… but so long as we keep heating and lighting our homes, running cars and eating way more than we need we should realize we are collectively as much responsible for the evils of our government as the people who are ostensibly running the show.”

      Wrong. Modern capitalist societies are designed to extract more and more money for the rich and that’s what distorts them and eventually makes them untenable.

      Working people, if given the choice, usually prefer green enterprises and industrial systems but the rich and politicians who sit in their laps are having none of that.

      What result do you do you think a plebiscite on the bailouts would have had if you could convince people to vote. As many as half of the electorate don’t vote in most elections. (Obama won by 33% to McCains 30%.)

      What result do you expect from a plebiscite on the wars in South Asia.

      Working people aren’t responsible for pollution and other gross side effects of rule by the looter rich in nations like the US and Canada. Their greed and stupidity cause the pollution.

      Here’s an example.

      In 1974 one Bradford Snell, a staff attorney for the U.S. Senate antitrust subcommittee, advanced the startling proposition that GM had (1) sabotaged energy-efficient electric transit systems in 45 cities around the country, including LA, in order to sell more fuel-guzzling buses and autos; (2) forced the railroads to replace nonpolluting electric locomotives with GM-built diesels by threatening to withhold lucrative auto shipments; and, most astonishing of all, (3) treasonously built armaments for the Nazis during World War II through Opel, its German subsidiary. Not surprisingly, Snell’s charges were widely publicized.

      Snell lavished particular attention on the case of the Pacific Electric. Though it’s difficult to believe today, Los Angeles once boasted the largest system of “interurbans” (heavy-duty inter-city trolleys) in the U.S., carrying some 80 million passengers a year in the late 1930s. According to Snell, all this went out the window starting in 1939, when GM got together with Standard Oil of California (now Chevron), Firestone, and other auto-related firms to set up a holding company that bought up trolley lines, dismantled them, and replaced them with buses. “The noisy, foul-smelling buses turned earlier patrons of the high-speed rail system away from public transit and, in effect, sold millions of private automobiles,” Snell said. “Largely as a result, Los Angeles today is an ecological wasteland.”

      Mar 8, 2009 at 8:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @Bill Perdue:

      That’s horrible. Where did you find that info., Bill?

      Mar 8, 2009 at 8:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Charles J. Mueller:

      He’s right about GM. They did wage a campaign (successful in many cases) to shut down electric public transit in the U.S. and Canada.
      They did it in my former hometown (Winnipeg) and they tried to do it in Vancouver.

      I seem to remember them being convicted on some charge in relation to it( may have been in Canada) and fined $1. I don’t have time to look it up right now.

      @Bill I hear what you are saying, and I agree with much of your analysis (about the rich unfairly benefitting). But with respect to changing things, frankly you are counting numbers you do not have. That missing 30% is probably never going to vote, and if they do there is no guarantee they will vote your way.

      So while I sympathize (and as I said, agree on SOME of your points), frankly you have to look at effecting change with the government you have right now or through other channels, because anything else is fiction.

      And again, anyone who gets into power is going to have to make some deals and decisions that are unpopular. Certainly you have to recognize that reality.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 8:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Charles J. Mueller: I worked as a railroader in LA for years and it was common knowledge because we shared extra boards with P&E union members who told us all about it.

      There’s a wikipedia article that’s pretty through. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy
      And heres the first lawsuit.
      http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/770576

      The problem is the poltitical lapdogs of rich don’t do those kinds of lwawsuits any more. All we get out of DOJ are justifications for torture and rendition, which is kidnap/murder but which Obama supports, as long as it’s not done here.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 8:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @strumpetwindsock: It wasn’t fiction here in 1775, or a few years later in France when Louis the last got his head shaved by the national razor. It wasn’t true in 1917 in Ireland or Russia, or in China or in Cuba in 1959.

      Elections don’t change things; if they did they’d be outlawed. We’ll get our numbers just like they did when things become untenable and unbearable. And given a global recession-depression that’s only a question of time.

      A socialist program will be very upopular with the rich. We’re going to take back all the money they stole and put them to work.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 8:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Bill Perdue:
      And just one more quick comment (Gotta run, back later). I disagree that the “working class” aren’t responsible for pollution and keeping the rich in power. Many of them actively support the right wing and are opposed to politics that would actually benefit them.
      Most of them don’t recycle, drive their cars needlessly, don’t use less-wasteful alternatives, buy factory and non-organic food, shop at WalMart, and support those churches you are so opposed to, and a good many of them don’t vote. And even if the rich are skimming off the top, we can’t ignore that the world system is benefitting all of us here in north america a lot more than those in the rest of the world (even europe).

      SO even if you think the public are all brainwashed and just need to wake up, that in no way absolves us from responsibility.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 8:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @strumpetwindsock: @Bill Perdue:

      I was totally unaware of this. Thank you for the links, Bill.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 9:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Bill Perdue:
      Ye Gods Bill, don’t go all Pol Pot on me again.
      The closest thing to a successful revolution on the list you presented is Cuba’s and it is a small island nation that had a lot of outside help.
      China is bureaucratic and corrupt (and moving rapidly toward state capitalism).

      The French Revolution killed a lot more poor than rich and not just in the Vendee. It didn’t even last 10 years before Napoleon took over. Then they brought the king back, had another one revolution in 1849, and the Paris Commune again at the end of the century (which was brutally put down).

      I won’t bore you with the finer points of Russian history. And Ireland…It’s a fine country, but it was no socialist revolution. Can you even buy condoms legally there yet, BTW?

      I understand your argument Bill. But you need to look at history. There is nothing in your history to indicate anythinkg like what you describe is going to happen, and if there is any kind of violent revolution in your country there is a very good chance it is not going to be in the direction you expect.

      But to draw this back to the purpose of this thread… until your glorious revolution happens you still have to deal with the political reality we have now. So to just write off the existing administration because they are not perfect is about as effective as that 30 percent of the population who don’t vote at all.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 9:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Bill Perdue:
      Though to take your Irish example… the notion that the Anglo-Irish agreement wasn’t “perfect” enough (because of the partition of Ulster) only resulted in a bloody civil war, more death than the war of independence which preceded it, and a stalemate… and 80 years later Ulster is still not part of the republic.

      Again… you may want something all you wish, but ultimately you have to play with the cards you get dealt.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 10:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @strumpetwindsock: You’re a classic conservative, terrified of change with an clueless attitude towards working people.

      You said effecting change except through the thoroughly corrupt governments of the US was fiction I proved it was not. I’m not surprised that everything doesn’t turn out perfectly. But in Ireland the Brits aren’t killing as many Irish as they used to and that’s good news because they were mass murderers until they were forced to leave most of the country.

      The civil war will go on until the brits leave.

      China started our corrupt and bureaucratic. They need a political revolution to inaugurate a democratic state.

      The French Revolution killed a lot more poor than rich and not just in the Vendee. Prove it, and don’t cite the deaths of people defending the revolution.

      I disagree that the “working class” aren’t responsible for pollution and keeping the rich in power. You’re displaying the rankest lack of common sense. Reread that article. Workers are effectively disenfranchised because labor and socialist parties are kept off the ballot. As the recession becomes a depression everybody’s political direction will change breaking hard right and hard left.

      Your comments that “Most of them don’t recycle, drive their cars needlessly, don’t use less-wasteful alternatives, buy factory and non-organic food, shop at WalMart, and support those churches you are so opposed to, and a good many of them don’t vote. are supercilious, prejudiced, utterly unprovable, and clueless.

      Please stop referring to cults as churches.

      Your comment that … even if the rich are skimming off the top, we can’t ignore that the world system is benefitting all of us here in north america a lot more than those in the rest of the world (even europe) is equally clueless and meaningless to working people. The uberrich aren’t skimming, they’re looting and they’ve wrecked our standard of living.

      Finally, don’t ask me to adopt your unquestioning endorsement of imperialism. What the rich do to rob the wealth of other parts of the world is exactly what they do to steal wealth in the biggest banana republic of all, the USA.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 11:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Charles J. Mueller: No problem Charles. US history is full of these almost forgotton examples of why we need economic as well as political democracy.

      How many people know the number of people lynched to uphold Jim Crow, or that Jim Crow was just another form of slavery?

      How many people know what a ghost dance is?

      How many poeple know the number of working people murdered building unions?

      And etc.

      Mar 8, 2009 at 11:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      Some good news from the land of my alternate home in the Philippines.

      http://thepinoy.net/?p=2934

      Mar 9, 2009 at 12:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Bill Perdue:
      The number of deaths under the guillotine during the French Revolution was between 15,000 and 40,000. That included people from all strata – from poor to nobility.

      In the September massacres half the prison population of Paris (1200) were butchered. They started out going after priests (probably not wealthy), but the vast majority were regular prisoners, many of them children.
      http://www.thenagain.info/WebChron/WestEurope/SeptMassacres.html

      In the Vendee revolt alone an estimated 100,000 to 400,000 were killed (there were only 800,000 people living in the entire region). Almost all were townspeople and farmers, since the Republicans waged a scorched earth campaign in the region – destroying entire towns, and loading people up in barges and sinking them in the Loire river to drown them. That death toll is for both sides, though I doubt the Republican army deaths were anywhere near that of the locals. Even if you cut that lowest number in half it is still more than all those who died under the guillotine – rich and poor.

      There. I haven’t included any of the military deaths fighting the Austrians, and I have left out a good many other deaths of common people throughout the rest of France. The total estimated death toll for the Revolution (not including people who starved afterwards) is around 1 million.

      I don’t know why you are so fixed on the French Revolution. It actually ended with the status quo (which later became a dictatorship and then returned to monarchy) – although the entire nation was ruined economically for about a decade afterward. There is even an argument that the revolution took place partially because reform was taking place too quickly in France (I recommend you read Schama’s book – you can find it in the link I posted above).
      Most of the “nobility” of the day were actually business people. They were able to purchase their titles, much in the same way Sir Mick became the Queen’s servant.

      Another thing that hastened the revolution was of course the fact the King was actively bankrolling your American Revolution (yes, as part of his war with Britain, I know – but you have to admit the workers didn’t do all the slogging).

      And regarding Ulster, some stupid shit blew up a bomb and killed people today because he can’t accept the fact that like it or not those who support staying in the UK aren’t going anywhere. Do you really want another round of the troubles that will do nothing other than kill a lot of people?

      And most churches go by the legal name “church”, whatever else you might think they are.

      You haven’t challenged any of my other points. And regarding how conservative, clueless and pro-Imperialist I am, I am happy to let others draw their own conclusions from my post.

      Mar 9, 2009 at 12:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Bill Perdue:
      One more correction, actually. I did not say the only way to effect change was through “corrupt” government. I did write “or other channels”. Go back and read it.

      But as for working WITH government, I don’t care how bad a goverment is. They’re using my money, and if there is any chance I can influence them to do something good with any of it I will exercise my right to do that. It’s a hell of a lot more productive than refusing to engage with them at all and changing absolutely nothing.

      Mar 9, 2009 at 1:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @strumpetwindsock: You’re the one hung up on France. I mentioned it as an example of the question you put which is can fundamental social changes occur when one form of society and government replaces another. The answer is still yes.

      And regarding Ulster, some stupid shit blew up a bomb and killed people today because he can’t accept the fact that like it or not those who support staying in the UK aren’t going anywhere.

      Regarding English occupied northern Ireland the fight will not end until it’s incorporated into the Republic, at which time the descendents of the colonists can either run away, as they did in Algeria, or become citizens of a unified non-secular Ireland.

      As to the ‘Real IRA’ gunmen who shot (as opposed to bombed) two soldiers in the occupation military why would you ask me if I want a return of the Troubles. Not only do you overestimate my influence on national independence movements thousands of miles from where I live but you’re implying, as you did with you Pol Pot reference, that I’m some kind of bomb tossing anarchist. That’s a bit arrogant.

      I could just as easily compare you to Thatcher or Churchill but that would be too flattering and in any case you seem to be to the right of them.

      I’m a leftist and a GLBT activist. Unlike you I don’t despise or lie about working people or toady to the rich or admire the awful global inequalities in wealth.

      I commented on everything you said worth commenting on. “Church” is not a ‘legal name’ it’s window dressing for humankinds most odious self inflicted wound, superstitious cults.

      Mar 9, 2009 at 1:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Bill Perdue:

      Thanks for the correction about the shooting; I mixed it up with a bombing a week ago. Your prediction about the future of Ulster is noted.

      And actually you have brought up the French Revolution in a number of threads, and you have also spoken several times about the use of the guillotine in what seemed to me to be a positive tone… please correct me if you actually disagree with its use.

      Those comments, plus the fact you have a fairly black-and-white view of things, and don’t seem to have much tolerance for any sort of political compromise or anything short of whatever you consider revolution … well, hence my reference to you going “Pol Pot”.

      Yes it was obviously a joke; I don’t think you actually have a closet full of bones. But it is a fair comment on your very strong ideological bent – at least as fair as many of the things you have said about me.

      Frankly I think some of your visions of the future are about as realistic as having a successful agrarian revolution by marching everybody out of the cities and sticking shovels in their hands.

      I know my view of the general public (not just the poor) bearing some responsibility for our ills is a little bit more grounded in reality than your rosy image of the oppressed masses just waiting to be shown the way and join your revolution.

      And for your information, I vote New Democrat, which isn’t exactly Green, but it is certainly far to the left of anything you have down there in the states. So yeah, I’m just a shill for the Bilderberg Group.

      And check out this Act of Incorporation.
      You can probably find a similar U.S. example if you really need to:
      http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/private/c20990e.php

      Mar 9, 2009 at 2:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @strumpetwindsock: Are you actually in the NDP or do you just vote for them? Do they tolerate your patronizing contempt for working people and your beyond preposterous allegation that working people instead of the looter rich are responsible for the sad shape we’re in. read that article for a third time, and then try to prove your statement that “Most of them don’t recycle, drive their cars needlessly, don’t use less-wasteful alternatives, buy factory and non-organic food, shop at WalMart…. That’s just right wing drivel.

      I hope the NDP, which is after all just another reformist group with delusions of “working within the system” hasn’t moved so far to the right that you’re representative of them. Although I doubt that’s the case.

      Don’t worry. The recession seems to be turning into a depression even faster than in 1929-31. Depressions, unlike recessions are not self correcting. At the same time the US and it’s satellite countries, who flatter themselves that they’re allies, continue to wage an unwinnable war in South Asia. That combination of events will give us a good chance to develop a hard left party of a sufficient size to contest for state power.

      What bombing about a week ago? I keep up on the news from Ireland and heard nothing about a bombing in about a year. So I checked BBC, An Phoblacht, The Belfast Times, and RTÉ. And ditto, they have no reports of any bombing since last July. What was your source?

      Mar 9, 2009 at 7:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @Charles J. Mueller: ‘The Army said they are expecting more people to apply this year because of the massive layoff in electronics, garments and furniture factories.

      That’s bad news, Charles. Sometimes it’s easy to forget that this is a global recession-depression.

      A similar situation in this country might even ease the problems Obama has recruiting cannon fodder, but if not he may feel compelled to repeal DADT.

      Mar 9, 2009 at 7:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @Bill Perdue:

      Yes, I noted that as well. Unemployment is up sharply in the Philippines.

      Mar 9, 2009 at 9:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      A thought provoking article from the Huffington Post.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/why-are-the-republicans-s_b_170322.html

      Mar 9, 2009 at 9:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • radg
      radg

      @John in CA: A few have, it used to be practically a stepping stone to the presidency, hasn’t happened recently, but used to often. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison come to mind

      Mar 9, 2009 at 9:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Bill Perdue:
      This bomb:
      http://geoconger.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/n-ireland-petrol-bomb-attack-is-condemned-cen-30609-p-8/
      Here’s another one from last May:
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1951422/Dissidents-blamed-for-bombing-policeman-in-Northern-Ireland.html

      But as I said… my mistake.

      And I just vote for them, Bill, but it’s been awhile since they purged their membership of heretics like me.

      And yes, they’re a bunch of deluded fools. They have been wasting their time on frivolous issues like bringing sexual orientation under Canada’s human rights and hate crime legislation and sponsoring legislation to guarantee same sex benefits and marriage equality.

      It’s shameful the way they sell their souls like that to prop up the forces of oppression… better that those bills should never have become law than taint themselves by working with the enemy.

      I love how you try to put the blame for everything on the government and powerbrokers and absolve the rest of us from any responsibility at all. Maybe you should come for a visit up here. We can go to a hockey game and talk politics with a few people. It might be an eye-opener for you.

      And depending on economic collapse and chaos to be your agent of change rather than working constructively for change? As I said, that’s a hell of a dice roll to bank your future on. You might be surprised at what comes of it.

      Mar 9, 2009 at 10:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wang
      Wang

      Speaking of Hillary Clinton:

      There is bad news about her husband.

      It is opined that Bill Clinton committed racist hate crimes, and I am not free to say anything further about it.

      Respectfully Submitted by Andrew Y. Wang, J.D. Candidate
      B.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
      Messiah College, Grantham, PA
      Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993

      (I can type 90 words per minute, and there are probably thousands of copies on the Internet indicating the content of this post.)
      _________________
      “If only it were possible to ban invention that bottled up memories so they never got stale and faded.” Off the top of my head—it came from my Lower Merion High School yearbook.

      Mar 17, 2009 at 11:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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