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Homosexuality, Like Short Tempers, Is Merely a Character Flaw

dolanbw

Thems be the words of New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan, who’s making a sport out of faith-based bigotry. The leader of America’s second largest Roman Catholic diocese, who took the post in April, wasted no time jumping into the gay marriage debate. The man trafficking in flawed science is one of those “smiling bigots” you’ve been hearing so much about. In fact, New York magazine just dubbed him “The Archbishop of Charm” in a new piece that puts the Washington Post‘s lauding profile of NOM’s Brian Brown to shame.

(One line from the article reads, “Dolan has worked hard not to attract controversy in his first few months.” Which is a laughable conclusion, given Dolan’s immediate war with Gov. David Paterson over gay marriage.)

Dolan believes we’re all “hardwired” to act a certain way sexually. It’s just that when it comes to gay men and women, their “companionship” should not be considered a valid marriage. The church “must respect” gay relationships, he says, just not so much that it violates this sacred institution called marriage — which, to be sure, 12th century European aristocrats happened to believe was incompatible with love. But what did they know?

You see, this pleasant old man — “a glad-hander and a backslapper, a tall, energetic, portly Irish-Catholic lug who likes smoking cigars and sipping Jameson’s,” as New York‘s Robert Kolker sheepishly describes him — doesn’t want gay Americans to suffer just because the church wants to protect its dictionary. Well, okay, that’s not entirely accurate … because Dolan himself doesn’t know how finely to tread on the issue.

But now Dolan senses that he may have said something disappointing. So he strikes a conciliatory note. “It’s not that we’re saying, ‘You don’t have the right.’ We would say that if people feel that the concomitant rights of friendship and companionship are being violated—for instance, insurance coverage, or the ability of one to visit a sick partner—we would defend those rights. There are ways to ameliorate some of the disadvantages that same-sex couples feel without tampering with the very definition of marriage.”

That, I say, sounds a lot like domestic partnerships.

Dolan straightens up suddenly. “It does sound like that,” he says. “And thank you for pointing that out. Because I wouldn’t want to go there.”

But go there, we shall. Particularly because Dolan is a man who, as the auxiliary bishop of the St. Louis archdiocese, refused to remove obvious child molesters from the church, making his stature as a respected public figure all the more heinous.

So let’s have it out, Dolan. Preach to us your thoughts on homosexuality.

Dolan explains the church’s intractable position on this issue by describing homosexuality as a compulsion that should be controlled, much the same way as premarital sex should be. Forget about gay and straight sex; both are wrong, he says, simply because they take place outside the confines of marriage.

“If you have been gay your whole life and feel that that’s the way God made you, God bless you,” Dolan says. “But I would still say that that doesn’t mean you should act on that. I would happen to say, for instance, that God made me with a pretty short temper. Now, I still think God loves me, but I can’t act on that. I would think that God made me with a particular soft spot in my heart for a martini. Now, I’d better be careful about that.”

So, I ask, is being gay a character flaw?

“Yeah, it would be,” Dolan says—his smile broadening. “And we are all born with certain character flaws, aren’t we?”

But this leaves gay men and lesbians no choice but to form sexual partnerships that will always be seen as sinful. Isn’t that unfair?

Dolan takes a moment to think this over. “There’s no option,” he agrees, still smiling. “But I don’t know if that’s unfairness.”

Discrimination, whether by the state or before god, then, is not unfair? Nor unjust? Nor reprehensible? Fine. But it is amusing to see the Roman Catholic Church and the Mormon Church differ so widely on whether being gay is in-born.

So what, then, are we supposed to do if we have this homosexual character flaw?

Sex, he goes on to say, is not a human right, even if modern culture has made it appear that way. But this, he adds, is actually good news. His eyes light up. He seems excited—both by what he’s saying and by the fresh way he’s found to say it.

“The church—this hopeless romantic that she is—holds that sexual love is so exalted that it is the very mirror of the passion and the intimate excitement that God has for us and our relationship. We actually believe that when a man and a woman say ‘I do’ forever, that our love will be faithful, forever freeing, liberating, life-giving. We believe they mean it and they can do it! That’s exciting, that’s enriching, that’s ennobling. That’s a big, fat yes—yes!”

Well c’mon, Dolan. This is a very new concept! Even within the church! If we’re talking about human history, which you religious types so enjoy, then let’s be clear: love and marriage used to be mutually exclusive things. They were not inexorably tied to each other. And the only reason that all changed, friend, was because of politics, not faith. And even then, marriage evolved (yes, the definition of marriage has changed over the centuries!) into a financial pact between a groom and his bride’s father. It took even more time before anyone gave the M-word the clout you do today.

But carry on, soldier of hatred. You may smile at us. You may say you respect us. And, like NOM’s Brian Brown, you might be an excellent manipulator of messages. But you are not a good person.

(NB: We’ve put a word in to New York magazine to see if they have any regrets about publishing a glowing article of Dolan, and whether they think the Washington Post‘s error just became their own. We’ll let you know what we hear. UPDATE: After an off-the-record conversation, a New York publicist provided this on-the-record statement: “No comment.”)

By:           editor editor
On:           Sep 22, 2009
Tagged: , ,

  • 162 Comments
    • B
      B

      Give the guy a break – he’s just doing his job.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 12:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Eileen
      Eileen

      He doesn’t sound like a bigot. It’s easy to name call – but all that speaks to is the lack of character of the person calling names. It sounds like Dolan has given thought to this.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 12:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      Mr. and Mrs. Religious Type Persons: We in the community really want you to believe anything you want, think anything you want, preach anything you want, practice anything you want! we will not judge you, condemn you, protest you, nor call you nasty names! Hows that for us being a swell bunch ‘o gay types??? =) (smiley faces and all!!) And in return we only ask just one thing of you…….leave us the fuck alone!!! No “B” we should not “give this guy a break” his job is to “shepard the flock” under him. Its his CHOICE to stick his pointy hat into our business.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 12:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      @terrwill: He is just doing what the Bible says and he doesn’t have to answer to you. God is in charge of him. Religion and Marriage are his business.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Eileen: You said “He doesn’t sound like a bigot. It’s easy to name call – but all that speaks to is the lack of character of the person calling names. It sounds like Dolan has given thought to this.”
      _____________________________

      People can think things out and still be bigots. There were supposedly learned men back a few generations ago that did studies that they said proved that certain races were inferior due to different shapes of the head, earwax production etc… These were some of the educated people of that time, they gave thought to these studies. Does the fact that they gave thought to them mean that their beliefs weren’t racist or bigoted? You have to be careful, not all bigots are hillbilly Klansmen with beer breath and BBQ stains on ill-fitting white T-Shirts.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @B: you said “@terrwill: He is just doing what the Bible says and he doesn’t have to answer to you. God is in charge of him. Religion and Marriage are his business.”
      _________________________________

      He’s doing just what the Bible says and Marriage are his business? Thats funny you know, because there is nothing IN the Bible about the Priesthood being celibate, in fact what there IS in the Bible was Jesus’ disdain and anger with the priests and organized religeon. Additionally, does this man shave? Yes he does, oooppps, that isn’t Biblically correct now is it? Is he wearing clothing of mixed fibers? Why I can tell from this picture that yes he is….ooppsie that is a big no no. And of course do you know what is described in Deuteronomy as an “Abomination”?? huh? Do you?? Well it says that men shall not dress like women, nor women like men….and look, there he is walking around in what is today a garment that is very sex specific to women. My My My….and THAT is an Abomination according to the Bible.

      So please stop pretending that these people follow the Bible. They do whatever they want, and once in a while use a small portion of the Bible to defend bigotry that they already have. The Bible tells them to protect the weak and yet this guy did NOTHING to protect children from being molested, so again, lie all you want about him living the Bible, but I’m onto your B.S.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tavdy79
      tavdy79

      In fact, New York magazine just dubbed him “The Archbishop of Charm”

      They were close, but not quite there. Perhaps “The Archbishop of Smarm” would be more accurate?

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      @Cam: You don’t understand, he was “chosen” to do God’s work. You don’t need to diminish his moral authority to make yourself feel better. You must be a Biblephobe. To each his own.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • HiredGoons
      HiredGoons

      “describing homosexuality as a compulsion that should be controlled, much the same way as premarital sex should be.”

      So… it’s something that is in our nature to do, but they don’t like so we shouldn’t? I’m ‘compelled’ to ignore him.

      Fuckyouverymuch kbye.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • HiredGoons
      HiredGoons

      @B: “God is in charge of him.” this is when I stop listening to you people.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • terrwill
      terrwill

      @B: Hey “B” I am having a real crappy day and don’t have time for your instigating. So please do us all a favor and fuck off cunt! Take your bullshit postings and head over to Rush Windbag the like, they will appreciate your garbage, read my postings, he is entitled to spew anything he wishes. When his spewing affects my rights he has no right to do so asswipe

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      Other character flaws:

      1. Fucking alter boys.
      2. Aiding, abetting and then conspiring to conceal the fucking of alter boys.
      3. Catholicism.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @B: You said “@Cam: You don’t understand, he was “chosen” to do God’s work. You don’t need to diminish his moral authority to make yourself feel better. You must be a Biblephobe. To each his own.”
      __________________________

      That is the typical response from somebody who has no answer. Attack, call me a name etc… In case it escaped your notice I pulled quotes from 5 or so different sections of the Bible. Now how pray tell would I know all of that if I was a Bible-phobe? Your problem is, you are trying to ignore everything I pointed out. this guy is ignoring proscriptions in the Bible against Shaving, Wearing Mixed Fibers, Protecting the Innocent, Jesus’s antipathy towards organized Priesthood etc… you ignore all of that and just attack me. Sorry “B” but it won’t work. This guy ignores VAST sections of the Bible and now is using a small section of it to back up his own bigotry. It’s completely Hypocritical. As for your comment that he was called to do God’s work. Thats funny, I don’t remember reading anywhere in the Bible that god gave the commandment to protect those who would rape children. Maybe I’ll go check it over again just to make sure I didn’t miss anything.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ---
      ---

      A very fine man.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Cam

      At least two people are posting under the single letter name “B”. One has essentially argued the same points you’ve made, the other is simply trying to discredit the first with snarkiness.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @David: Hmm, ok, then I meant my comment to be aimed at the “Snarky” one. ;)

      That must be the same “B” who was defending the Mormon church on the other post.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      old fart seeks airtime by spouting hate mongering drivel.

      /gayfacepalm

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jerry Priori
      Jerry Priori

      @B: God is fiction, so whatever is in the bible is completely irrelevant. It’s true that he doesn’t answer to us, but I don’t answer to him–and I certainly don’t answer to his imaginary “boss.”

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      @Cam: I get it – you don’t think the Bible is God’s Word. There’s no talking with you then. Remember, conversation is for learning.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Matt
      Matt

      Thanks, religious dude, but us gays want to redefine civil marriage, not religious marriage.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Jerry Priori

      Prove that “Jerry Priori” is not fiction, not an imaginary construct. Do so entirely within the context of this forum, and without using any evidence, at all, that could be faked or distorted within this context. Take a moment and think about it.

      Do you understand the problem now? You can’t post a jpg of any photo or document, it might belong to a real “Jerry Priori”, but the person posting it could be anyone else, or it could be photoshopped. There is no evidence you can provide in this context to prove your identity. No one can.

      And that lack of evidence doesn’t prove anything either, except that this particular context – an internet discussion, is generally not up to the task of proving much of anything about the physical world.

      Just as the physical world is generally not up to the task ofp roving much of anything about the Divine.

      The vast majority of human beings, across recorded human history, have experience that something we call Divine. Maybe “Jerry Priori” hasn’t experienced it, but lack of experience from “Jerry Priori” does not indicate anything about the experiences of others.

      Keep in mind that for people of faith, God is more tangible, more directly experienced, than any pseudonymous poster on the internet could ever be.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • V
      V

      Jason and Terrwill, you sound like klansmen.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @B: (The snarky one) You said “@Cam: I get it – you don’t think the Bible is God’s Word. There’s no talking with you then. Remember, conversation is for learning.”
      ________________________________________

      Does your misdirection and deflection usually work? I just pointed out to you that this guy is ignoring vast stretches of the Bible, therefore if anybody doesn’t seem to think it’s God’s word it would be him….but since you obviously have no defense against the points I made, by all means, keep trying to divert the argument.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      Cam: That’s all we’ve got. We don’t actually answer anything, we don’t have to – God is on our side. Deal with it.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      @V:

      I’m Jewish.

      Do they allow Jews in the Klan?

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • M Shane
      M Shane

      I don’t know if that is a joke or if the good bishop has Alshemers; One thing I can say for certain is that he has no more “moral authoriy ” than a whore on the street or the Pope or me.
      I will say that he’s either crazy as a hoot owl or just trying to get laid-aparently sex is pretty silly to him.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      @tavdy79:

      tavdy79 FTW!

      Sep 22, 2009 at 2:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      @B:

      The Romans, Greeks, Ottomans, Nazis, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians and Mongols all had religion on their side, too.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 3:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      @Jason: Yeah, I know history. But, I have a good God. They all had evil Gods. It’s all about picking the “right” God.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 3:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      @B:

      The self righteousness in here is DEEP!

      Sep 22, 2009 at 3:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevinvancouver
      kevinvancouver

      @B: you’re joking right?

      Sep 22, 2009 at 3:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jerry Priori
      Jerry Priori

      @David: All entirely irrelevant. So long as you keep your Jesus off my penis, I couldn’t care less what delusions you are suffering. Worship whatever you please. But when assholes like Dolan make pronouncements that try to influence law, I think it is more than reasonable to pipe in and remind those like him that we see through the bullshit and realize that gods are nothing but human constructs. If gods exist in reality, we should have evidence for them. We don’t. Your personal testimony of faith doesn’t count as evidence.

      I couldn’t care less whether or not you think I exist. But if I don’t exist, then who are you talking to? I assure you that I’m more real than your imaginary friend, but I have no pie in the sky after you die to promise you, so to you my existence isn’t important. My existence could not be any less real to people of faith than their so-called god(s). What I’ve written is here for everyone to see. I commented, you replied, I responded. That’s a ton more evidence for my existence than any god ever imagined.

      I would prefer not to think of gods and/or religion at all because those ideas have no relevance in my life. However, when religious leaders influence congregations to change civil law to prevent my equality, I’m going to speak up. It’s not my fault gods don’t exist. Nor is it my fault that gay atheists such as myself hurt your feelings when we point out the obvious. Stop your leaders from fucking up civil law and I’ll have nothing to say about the matter of gods at all.

      I don’t believe in unicorns, but I don’t feel the need to post on message board that unicorns don’t exist because there are no unicorn believers trying to prevent my equality. I’d be as mute about gods as I am about unicorns if it weren’t for the noisy god-botherers proclaiming things that are not only not true, but irrelevant to anyone not a member of the preacher’s cult.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 3:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • petted
      petted

      @B: Actually God is on everyone’s side consider the messages in John 8:7, Matthew 7:1, Romans 2:1, Psalms 138:6, Psalms 149:4, Proverbs 3:34 to name a few.

      But I think you and many of those like you should reflect on Proverbs 27:2 “Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; someone else, and not your own lips.”

      Also Mark 12:17 (“Render unto Caesar…”) is clearly an indication that Jesus favored the separation of church and state which would include civil & ecclesiastical matrimony.

      I may disagree with the evils christianity has foisted on so many however that is not to say that it brought nothing worthwhile to Western civilization even if the barrel is half spoilt.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 3:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @B: You said “Cam: That’s all we’ve got. We don’t actually answer anything, we don’t have to – God is on our side. Deal with it.”
      ___________________________-

      Once again you are trying to avoid responding to all the instances I quotes of just how many biblical proclamations this guy is breaking. You don’t get to say “well he ignores the entire Bible but he hates the same people I hate so God is on our side!” Sorry there sweet pea, but this guy can’t even follow the rules in the Bible. you can cry and moan all you want about God being on your side, but if god being on your side means following the Bible than Archbishop dolan certainly doesn’t qualify…nor does your judgemental self. It’s sad really. you so desperately want to think that God believes in you, but the problem is…from everything in the Bible, you are not godly just because you hate people you think are sinning. It’s not that easy.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      “That’s a ton more evidence for my existence than any god ever imagined.”

      Hardly. Recent studies have found that people posting to internet discussion groups often fail the Turing test.

      You are dismissing something as irrelevant simply because you don’t understand it, and that is hardly a scientific or rational perspective.

      Your claim ‘gods are nothing but human constructs’ is itself just a human construct, one shared by only a fraction of human beings.

      “If gods exist in reality, we should have evidence for them. We don’t. ”

      Coincidentally, there is no evidence that God does not exist, either. Yet atheists routinely make the presumptuous declaration that there is no God, based on on evidence, but on their lack of evidence and unwillingness to accept other people’s testimony.

      To know that there is no God, Jerry, you would have to know absolutely everything about the entire universe, at least. However, astronomers hypothesize that the universe is so large, that it has not existed long enough for light – data – from parts of the universe to reach earth. In other words, there is part of the universe we do not, cannot perceive or have data about. What is in that part of the universe, Jerry?

      Moreover, astronomers also say that the universe is universally expanding, to the effect that those areas farthest from us are expanding the fast, and in theory at least, the farthest regions of the universe are essentially expanding faster than the speed of light, from our perspective, and we will never have data about those regions of space.

      But even on a smaller scale, there is simply too much data, even just looking at earth, for you to know everything about everything and honestly say ‘there is no God on earth’. And that’s just the easy part, the physical universe.

      This is where my points, which you dismissed, are indeed relevant. In this context, we have no verifiable evidence for you. Someone, or something, is posting as “Jerry Priori”, but the only evidence for it is the words here. This context, a web discussion, has limits to the kind and level of data that it can communicate.

      Science has limits, it cannot currently perceive anything that is more than 13.5 to 14 billion light years away from earth, because energy, and therefore data, has not had enough time for anything further than that to reach us. Science also cannot retrieve data smaller than a certain size, called the planck length. Science is also limited by technology, there are parameters of heat and pressure that cannot, currently, be created by science, for example. Much of what we take as science fact today, was completely out of reach of science a generation, or two, ago.

      Human beings have limits as well, the broadest of which is personal experience. Anything beyond that, we have to trust other sources of data, whether it is a cyclotron, or someone down the street. Atheists chose to refuse believe the testimony of people of faith, just as so many homophobes chose to refuse to believe the testimony of GLBTQ people. You don’t experience God, they don’t experience sexual attraction to people of their own gender. They deny that the orientation homosexuality exists, you deny that God exists.

      How exactly are you different?

      “Your personal testimony of faith doesn’t count as evidence.”

      Nice strawman, since the issue is one of experience, not faith, but, if you summarily dismiss other people’s testimony out of hand, how are you different from homophobes?

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      There was a sign on a bus. It said “Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.”

      Seemed relevant to this conversation.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • V
      V

      @Jason:

      You don’t think Jews can be bigots?

      How arrogant.

      Of course Jews can be bigots.

      Take, for example, you!

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      @V:

      well, how downright anti-semitic of you!

      :-)

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @V: you said “@Jason:

      You don’t think Jews can be bigots?

      How arrogant.

      Of course Jews can be bigots.

      Take, for example, you!”
      ____________________________________

      That was a stupid comment since his comment that you were referencing was when he asked you if Jews could be memebers of the Klan.” His comment wasn’t saying that jews can’t be bigots, his comment was jokingly referencing that he couldn’t be a klansman…as you were accusing him of, since the Klan doesn’t admit Jews….sheesh.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      @Cam:

      Sheesh…

      Way to take the air out of that self righteous bag of wind with your logic and sound minded arguments.

      Thanks lots…

      ;-)

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      The bible is the word of god:
      God wait thousands of years after creating man to publish it. God task people whose only common trait was they could write legibly to write it. God waited several thousand more years to enable a pontiff in a tacky dress to enforce it.

      …. thier were a few galaxies a billion light years away whose centers were about to collapse to form submissive black holes, and when that happens, the galactic-scale fireworks are a sight to behold. So God ran off to watch the show and could only make it back to earth a few times.

      Do Not miss God’s return to earth.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      @V:

      BTW,

      It was AFTER science threw off the religious oppression that had oppressed progress for almost 2000 years that we invented or perfected things like electricity, the car, evolution, bacterial theory of medicine, food safety, the internets and democrac that contribute to YOUR ability to post your shite and nonsense here.

      moses did not walk down from the mountain with relativity or economics or genetics. he walked down with rules that for thousands of years were used to rule by fear and oppression.

      science and human imagination provided the rest.

      not some invisible sky father who lets babies in africa die of aids and tyrants like hitler rise to power.

      mwah!

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Milkman
      The Milkman

      B said: @Jason: Yeah, I know history. But, I have a good God. They all had evil Gods. It’s all about picking the “right” God.

      LOL. It really does come down to that, doesn’t it?

      It’s nice that they let you use the computer at the group home.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • V
      V

      @Cam:

      Learn to read with care, Cam.

      I said he sounded like a klansmen.

      And he has the temperament and mindset of one.

      He is a bigot like one.

      An you don’t sound too bright yourself.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cheesus
      Cheesus

      In this day and age to be talked to by some ridiculous old fop who wears outlandish garbs such as that is offensive…The fact that he smiles and laughs so much tells me he probably has many skeletons in his closet…as the great Christopher Hitchens says :

      “No child’s behind left!”

      Down with religion…the last bastion of ignorance, intolerable “tolerance” and inane logic….WTF!?

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • V
      V

      @Jason:

      You appear to be a profoundly angry, unhappy, frustrated individual.

      Get well soon, Jason.

      Mwah.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      Christianity is the belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mojojojo
      mojojojo

      @David: You keep your Jebus off my penis and I’ll keep my penis off of you!

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cheesus
      Cheesus

      @Jason:

      Thank you for the modern retelling…if Hollywood had any sense that is exactly how they would update the most ridiculous story ever told.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @V: You said “@Cam:

      Learn to read with care, Cam.

      I said he sounded like a klansmen.

      And he has the temperament and mindset of one.

      He is a bigot like one.

      An you don’t sound too bright yourself.”
      ___________________

      Yes, and he responded with the line “Can Jews be in the Klan?” making a joke because of course the Klan wouldn’t allow Jews in. You missed the joke, and responded that of course Jews can be bigots. You should be careful questioning others intelligence. So often the truth is that you actually were the one who missed something.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 4:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      @Cam: The point is we can all live and learn and love – IF we have a God. A Good God. I have seen evil in these comments and i know it’s because some of you don’t have God. Pick a religion and get back on the good side of life.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 5:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TADPOLICUS WEX
      TADPOLICUS WEX

      Human sexuality is a hardwired behavior be it homo or hetero. Religion on the other hand is a learned behavior. That kind of makes religion a lifestyle choice. No pass for the man in the ill-fitting white frilly dress!

      Sep 22, 2009 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @B: you said “@Cam: The point is we can all live and learn and love – IF we have a God. A Good God. I have seen evil in these comments and i know it’s because some of you don’t have God. Pick a religion and get back on the good side of life.”
      ___________________________________

      Once again you avoid dealing with all the examples I gave you above of how many ares of the Bible this “Man of God” ignores. Yet you call him a man of god because he happens to dislike gays. That is your one litmis test. You say you see evil in these comments, really? Please point out the evil in my comments, you know, the comments where I point out that this ARchbishop is breaking several biblical laws and yet you are still supporting him. You’ve tried to distract, name call, etc.. anything but deal with the questions I typed.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cheesus
      Cheesus

      @B

      The fact that most of us are annoyed by old white men in drag continually telling us we’re inferior has nothing to do with the fact that we have no God, or that there is one, or that actually there isn’t one. Why is this impossible for you mind controlled FREAKS to understand that?

      Sep 22, 2009 at 5:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ecapskcab
      ecapskcab

      One of the many problems I have with religulous leaders is that its from a leadership stance that they embroil morals and ethics. That he is in a powerful position automatically asigns him a position outside or above the argument, as if we all live below him and his fellows…which is not the case and which is why he and his fellows have gotten away with the most heinous of acts against human beings….sip your martini blowhard, then choke on the olive (if you’re classy)

      Sep 22, 2009 at 6:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Matt
      Matt

      @B: I pick Pastafarianism.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 6:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • elaygee
      elaygee

      What do you expect from one of Pope Adolph’s SS shock troops?

      Sep 22, 2009 at 6:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin57
      kevin57

      Unwittingly, Dolan falls into a theological trap. Once the Church acknowledges that homosexuality is intrinsic to certain person’s nature (right now, officially, Church teaching is ‘agnostic’ on that point), then it would be sinful to deny them their fulfillment…which would include loving, giving, and sexually unititive relationships. It would be cruel and unjust. The archbishop sort of caught himself if you look at his responses.

      This is progress, folks…seriously.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 6:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • cheapshot
      cheapshot

      If war happened and it was non believers vs. believers I would have no problem joining and killing the godly. clean the slate as it were

      Sep 22, 2009 at 6:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Not straight
      Not straight

      B how do you know you’re believing in the right god? I mean there are so many out there to choose from.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 7:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Tadpole

      “Human sexuality is a hardwired behavior be it homo or hetero. Religion on the other hand is a learned behavior. ”

      First, you left out bisexuality, and asexuality.

      Second, your comparison of sexual orientation to religion is false. Sexual orientation is the ability, the capacity for, a certain set of behaviors. It corresponds with the capacity to experience the Divine, the ability to have certain kinds of transcendent experiences. While religion is the accumulation of symbols, stories, testimonies and experiences of people, it equates to all of the stuff people have developed to express sexuality, from romantic poetry to specific positions.

      Third, religions have arisen independently in all human societies that have left some record. Even aboriginal people’s who have been isolated from the rest of humankind for hundreds of generations, have created ways to talk about their experiences of the Divine.

      The growing body of evidence indicates that there is an innate capacity for religion, as there is for language and music for example. It may be that some people are simply born without that ability, much the way some people are born tone-deaf, or incapable of empathizing with and trusting others.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 8:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • simon
      simon

      Why isn’t the gay community challenging the Roman Catholic Church on its pedophile problem? We need ads pointing to the hypocrisy of the pedophile-shielding church elders.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • mojojojo
      mojojojo

      @David: Keep yer Jebus off my penis, and I’ll keep my penis off of you.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 8:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fuzzypony
      fuzzypony

      @Jason: ROTFLMAO! Jason for the win!

      @David:All of humanity has the capacity for religion because all of humanity has the capacity for fear. Religion is our way of explaining things we don’t understand, and trying to influence things we can’t control.

      I’m agnostic, and I think you make a wonderful argument for agnosticism, but not for the existence of a divine being or beings. Remember Clarke’s Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Looking back across history, we see that, in parallel, any insufficiently understood phenomenon has been explained as an act of some divine being. This is not proof that anyone has experienced the divine… only the unexplainable.

      Just because someone’s afraid of the unexplainable doesn’t give them the right to judge or govern others.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 10:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tjr101
      tjr101

      Archbishop Dolan is VERY DANGEROUS. This guy comes off as very amiable, folksy, funny, humble and soft while spewing vitriol and hate that rivals the Phelps clan. He makes it easy for the naive minded to like him while he indoctrinates hate.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 10:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Fuzzypony

      “All of humanity has the capacity for religion because all of humanity has the capacity for fear. Religion is our way of explaining things we don’t understand, and trying to influence things we can’t control.”

      Religion does not equate to fear. For you, perhaps, and some people, religion is about “explaining things we don’t understand, and trying to influence things we can’t control”, but that is not true for everyone.

      I realize that you are taking up one hypothesis from archeologists and anthropologists to explain religion, but, it only fits some of the data about religion in human cultures.

      “I’m agnostic, and I think you make a wonderful argument for agnosticism, but not for the existence of a divine being or beings.”

      No, not really. I’ve been arguing that people are genuinely experiencing something which has come to be labeled Divine.

      Clarke’s Third law is not applicable, people are not experiencing a technology wielded by other humans, but a complex mix of sensory data, of which a significant chunk is understood by the person experiencing it.

      “any insufficiently understood phenomenon has been explained as an act of some divine being. ”

      Sometimes it has, sometimes it has not.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 11:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • onefish
      onefish

      @TJR101

      I agree with you. Archbishop Dolan is very dangerous. He seems so nice, its easy to miss how dishonest and malicious he is. We really need better strategies to deal with enemies like him.

      Sep 22, 2009 at 11:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ted
      Ted

      B, it’s easy to only answer the questions that give the clergy control – control over minds, money, everything lustful. Dolan ia a hack in the world’s largest organized crime ring, the Catholic Church. As I saw in a movie the other night, I pray for him. I pray for him to get nut cancer.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 12:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ted
      Ted

      B – does “B” stand for “baaaaa baaaaaa”?

      Sep 23, 2009 at 12:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ted
      Ted

      Or is “B” for “Brainwashed”?

      Sep 23, 2009 at 12:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ted
      Ted

      Oh my goodness, didn’t realize there was a “good B” [the gay supporter] and the “bad B” [jesus freak]. My comments above were meant for Bad B.

      For good B, apologies, and BTW you had me at “submissive black holes”!

      Sep 23, 2009 at 12:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • YukiEiri
      YukiEiri

      Jason gets the big kudos for that character flaws post. For my own part, I think we should be grateful for folks like the Archbishop. If it weren’t for people like him, we wouldn’t have any decent places to park. Remember boys and girls, not ALL handicaps are physical!

      Sep 23, 2009 at 1:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @onefish: “We really need better strategies to deal with enemies like him.”

      I vote for violence. That’s always fun.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 1:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • fuzzypony
      fuzzypony

      @David: No, Clarke’s Law is not applicable directly; I was using it to set up my argument. The concept is quite similar. Used to be, the sun and the moon were explained as gods and goddesses. Now, thanks to advances in our own technology, we have a better explanation. One day we might reach a higher level of awareness and discover that these are gods after all, and they exist on this plane as celestial bodies. Who knows? We’re not there yet. To *insist* on a divine explanation, however, is flawed.

      Anthropologists may have the same hypothesis about religion and fear, but I came by it based on my own observations. Maybe if people didn’t wield religion as a weapon, I could see the goodness in it. Then again, if a person needs a higher power to tell them to be good to their fellow living beings… do I want to know them? I’m not sure.

      All that is, ultimately, beside the point. One person or group’s religious belief absolutely does not grant them the right to judge, discriminate against or control others. If you reply, please give us your thoughts on this.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 3:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jessi
      jessi

      @david#59: “religions have arisen independently in all human societies that have left some record …that there is an innate capacity for religion”
      People didn’t have science and technology back then. They didn’t know about bacteria and virus’s etc.. They had to have a way to explain their existence and what was happening around them. Gods were created to give people a reason to live and strive. If they did it right they would be rewarded in the afterlife. Gods were also used to control lower class workers from rebeling against the upper class. Today religion is becoming irrelevant with better education and peoples knowledge that Gods don’t control weather patterns and bad crop seasons.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 3:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @B:

      B…Dolan certainly does have his own character flaw(s). Check out http://www.fallwell.com and you’ll see which ones he and his cult, among many others, deliberately choose to ignore let alone obey according to their “bible”. I wonder why?????

      Sep 23, 2009 at 8:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @David: David You said “Tadpole

      “Human sexuality is a hardwired behavior be it homo or hetero. Religion on the other hand is a learned behavior. ”

      First, you left out bisexuality, and asexuality.

      Second, your comparison of sexual orientation to religion is false. Sexual orientation is the ability, the capacity for, a certain set of behaviors. It corresponds with the capacity to experience the Divine, the ability to have certain kinds of transcendent experiences. While religion is the accumulation of symbols, stories, testimonies and experiences of people, it equates to all of the stuff people have developed to express sexuality, from romantic poetry to specific positions. ”
      ________________________________________

      That is one of those convienient statements similar to the ones that the Catholics came up with in the “Council of Nicaea” to separate themselves from the Alexandrian branch.

      Sexual orientation is not the capacity for sex, it is what you are hardwired for. The attraction is inate, meanwhile religeon is taught or a choice. If religeon wasn’t a choice then why have so many religeons over the years had such harsh punishments for people who broke from them? The Catholics tortured, the Muslims Kill, the Mormons and the Amish Shun. Again, if religeon was like sexuality then you wouldn’t have to try to torture people to keep them within the fols now would you?

      the fact of the matter that you all keep ignoring is this. This Archbishop is in violation of several rules set out in the Bible, yet he doesn’t like gays so therefore to you he is a man of god. you are bigots, he supports your bigotry therefore you accept him. Because in all reality, you are not godly people, you just use your religeon to make you feel like you are in some club where you get to feel better than others. Mother Theresea was godly, you’re just a bigot.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 10:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @jessi:

      Co-sign.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 10:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @Cam:

      Cam, in addition to torture, the Catholic cult also killed many many times over and in the 21st century, indirectly kills in the emerging nations where they have their missionaries by prohibiting the distribution of condoms and other forms of birth control where HIV is pandemic and killing people in the hundreds of thousands. That alone should summon the roman cult on charges of crimes against humanity in addition to the molestation charges that are not new but indigenous to the cult for millenia and continues to this day. They’ll never stamp it out because there are many straight clerics who also molest. This cult NEVER issued a mandate to weed out the straights wishing to enter the seminaries, only the gay ones or those perceived to be gay. This cult actually believes that pedophilia = gay, but deliberately ignores the straight clerics who have been molesting girls and women almost two millenia. There were quite a number of them involved in the most recent scandal, but its played down.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 10:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nikko
      nikko

      CAM, you are right on. And B, you are a typical simplistic fundamentalist christian(read: dumb). CAM has repeatedly made his point clear about all the ignored passages of scripture and you still just trod on like it was nothing when the truth is staring at you in the face. Face it, you arrogant delusional simpleton, you’re wrong.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 12:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      By what authority do these self-appointed moral supremacists impose their narrow views on the rest of us? Few of them have any relationship experience, know precious little about sex so who in their right mind would want to listen to these abnormal celibates for advice or guidance? If I were in a troubled marriage as a former catholic now avowed atheist, a catholic cultist would be the last person I’d seek counsel from. What do they know about life, responsibility, raising a family, paying taxes, having a real job? They’re nothing more than parasites spreading intolerance and inciting hatred by their bigoted views of who and what we are. In fact, they know absolutely NOTHING about us or our lives for that matter. Its a pity these cults exist.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 2:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • onefish
      onefish

      I think what is needed is not more venting against the Catholic Church, but an anti-defamation organization with a bite. If you look up what GLAAD has done about this bigot, all you’ll find is that they have made sure pro-same-sex marriage opinions from Catholics are “on the record.” I think we need to learn a few lessons from the Jewish anti-defamation people (ADL).

      Imagine an antisemite being countered by having non-antisemitic views put “on the record.”

      Sep 23, 2009 at 2:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Andrew
      Andrew

      @David: “The growing body of evidence indicates that there is an innate capacity for religion, as there is for language and music for example. It may be that some people are simply born without that ability, much the way some people are born tone-deaf, or incapable of empathizing with and trusting others.”

      That is the most idiotic, baseless and irrational statement I have ever seen on Queerty. Everyone knows religion is inherited and children are brainwashed. 95% of religious people NEVER choose their religion – it just happened to be the same one their parents had.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      First:
      Just to point out, the Episcopal church has gotten smart and has openly gay bishops. And luckily, that’s my faith (it’s a part of Christianity for those who don’t know- oh, and there’s a link to the article in my name)

      Second:
      From someone who has family as therapists, I have this piece of knowledge to offer:
      Homosexuality is technically a disorder. No! Not in the way of it being an issue, not like ADD or ADHD in the damaging way- though it is similar in the way it can’t be helped. It is an abnormality that occurs in the embryotic stage of human development that I think, I’m not completely sure we just brushed on the discussion, has something to do with not really developing fully into the gender you are (like too much testosterone vs. too little).

      So really, it can’t be helped. It’s not a flaw, it’s a disorder that can’t be changed. This knowledge can be used or ignored, but it’s here.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 6:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Robert, NYC:

      Robert, you picked exactly the right word to describe these people who are getting a free ride on the back of their hosts.

      Parasites!

      @Andrew:

      You are absolutely right. Religion is inherited.

      If you were born or Muslim parents, then the likelihood of becoming a Muslim is just about 100%. The same holds true of Judaism, Protestantism, Catholicism or any other religion.

      @str8grl4lgbtrights:

      Homosexuality is technically a disorder.

      Umm…the APA would not agree with that position. Could you please give us a valid source for that assertion…other than your “family therapists”?

      @str8grl4lgbtrights:

      Sep 23, 2009 at 9:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Andrew:

      The growing body of evidence indicates that there is an innate capacity for religion.

      The growing body of evidence indicates there there also an innate capacity for overeating/obesity.

      That doesn’t necessarily make it a good thing, however!

      Sep 23, 2009 at 10:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Sorry, Andrew. Post no. 86 was meant for David. ;o)

      Sep 23, 2009 at 10:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      @str8grl4lgbtrights: Fuck you.

      You said: “Just to point out, the Episcopal church has gotten smart and has openly gay bishops.”

      And … this helps us how? Who cares if Vicki Gene got a raise and some new robes? The Episcopalians still teach homosexuality is wrong. Let us know when they change that belief. I don’t care about Vicki Gene’s career. It doesn’t help us, it only helps him.

      Plus, do some research – homosexuality is not a disorder. You must not have gay friends – because if you did you would know “gay” is beautiful. You might be beautiful, but I’m not sure based on your ill-informed comment.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 11:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Fuzzypony

      “The concept is quite similar.”

      No, not really.

      “Used to be, the sun and the moon were explained as gods and goddesses.”

      By some people. And even for those religions where the sun was linked to a deity, your statement is an over-simplification to the point of useless error.

      “Now, thanks to advances in our own technology, we have a better explanation. One day we might reach a higher level of awareness and discover that these are gods after all, and they exist on this plane as celestial bodies. Who knows? We’re not there yet. To *insist* on a divine explanation, however, is flawed.”

      Of course, to insist on a non-divine explanation is also flawed. With two hypothesis that cannot yet be tested, one must go with the preponderance of evidence, in this case testimony, and more people testify to having the experienced the Divine, than do not. Kinda like sexual orientation, more people testify to being heterosexual than homosexual.

      GLBTQ people get rightfully irate, when some homophobe says ‘I never experienced same-sex attractions, so therefore, homosexuality doesn’t actually exist’, when a vocal and abusive minority of GLBTQ people who are atheists insist that their lack of experience of the Divine proves that the Divine does not exist.

      “Anthropologists may have the same hypothesis about religion and fear, but I came by it based on my own observations. ” Either way, the hypothesis ignores the preponderance of evidence and the testimony of the majority of participants. That is hardly an appropriate basis for any conclusion. When homophobes pick and chose, ignoring most of the evidence to focus on what little suports their theory, GLBTQ people complain, and rightfully so. Doing the same to religion is just as wrong.

      “One person or group’s religious belief absolutely does not grant them the right to judge, discriminate against or control others. If you reply, please give us your thoughts on this.”

      Atheism is in essence a religious belief, a belief about the nature of God – that God does not exist. Yet here are people judging and discriminating against and advocating asserting control over people who are not atheists.

      I think it is hypocritical and immoral when people who complain about the bigotry that targets them, turn around and target other people for bigotry. I think it is hypocritical and immoral when people (atheists for example) who complain how someone else’s beliefs (conservative religions) are used to control their lives, seeks to assert control over other people (people of faith) as an expression of their own religious belief (that there is no god). I think that anti-religious hate speech is just as vile and dehumanizing as anti-gay hate speech.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 11:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Cam

      You’ve completely missed, or deliberately ignored, the point I was making. Religion is an accumulation of stories, rituals, symbols, accounts, experiences, techniques; it does not correlate with sexual orientation, but rather, with the accumulated cultural context for the expression of sexuality – from sexual positions to ideals about romance and intimacy, to erotica.

      “Sexual orientation is not the capacity for sex, it is what you are hardwired for.”

      Many people of faith, and a growing body of evidence, indicates that spirituality, “the capacity to experience the Divine,” is innate, something humans are hard-wired for.

      That is the important distinction I made earlier. Yet people here insist on defining spirituality by activities, just as homophobes routinely define sexuality, particularly homosexuality, by activities.

      “Again, if religeon was like sexuality then you wouldn’t have to try to torture people to keep them within the fols now would you?”

      Here’s another way that your example, and reasoning, breaks down.

      People have used torture and violence to keep others within a specific range of sexual expressions, sexual acts. And acts of coercion have been highly unsuccessful in changing people’s spirituality, their capacity to experience the Divine, just as acts of coercion have been highly unsuccessful in changing’ people’s sexual orientation.

      “the fact of the matter that you all keep ignoring is this. . . ” False accusations like this suggest that you are ignoring a near universal human condemnation of lying and false testimony.

      Your fantasy about what I believe was both false, and abusive and dehumanizing. You assumed, because I have defended spirituality, that I must do and believe certain ugly things. That is bigotry, on your part.

      And as homophobes so consistently do, you have created a fantasy about my life, one with no relationship to anything I’ve actually said or done, and insisted that your fantasy was my reality.

      “The Catholics tortured, the Muslims Kill, the Mormons and the Amish Shun. ” And Atheists in the Soviet Union slaughter, atheists in China persecute and destroy, atheists on the internet lie and libel.

      Humans are imperfect; religion, unlike many fundamentalist atheists, acknowledges this and attempts to do something about it. But several times now across several threads, atheists here have essentially rejected the notion that some things are wrong, bad, evil, harmful, sin.

      That notion, that some things are wrong, is based on a core pyschological response known as empathy – the ability to conclude, from one’s own experience of pain, that others feel pain as well, and then, refrain from inflicting on others what one knows to be harmful. In other words, do not do to others what you would not have done to you, (as it appears in the OT) or as Christ put it Do onto others as you would have others do onto you, and ‘love your neighbor as yourself’.

      But some folk are rejecting that foundational undertanding of justice and right and wrong, based on empathy. Is it because they themselves are incapable of it?

      There are people known to science who are incapable of empathy.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 11:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KK Bloom
      KK Bloom

      “I think it is hypocritical and immoral when people who complain about the bigotry that targets them, turn around and target other people for bigotry.”

      How does pointing out bigotry BECOME bigotry? Not a single gay or lesbian person seeking marriage equality is telling straight people they can’t get married, or can’t believe in god, or can’t attend church. In fact, they are not altering a single aspect of any single heterosexual life.

      Anti-gay people ARE, however, constantly attacking gays and using the guise of “religion” as cover. Are gay people to simply ignore the extreme hypcocrisy of people who are constantly attacking them? Point out exactly how gay people are “targeting” anyone. Other than whining about imagined “victimhood” why don’t you prove with concrete examples how any single christian is actually being targeted in any real, tangible way.

      Sep 23, 2009 at 11:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Jessi

      “People didn’t have science and technology back then. They didn’t know about bacteria and virus’s etc.. ”

      So, that indicates nothing about the innateness of the capacity to experience the Divine.

      “They had to have a way to explain their existence and what was happening around them. Gods were created to give people a reason to live and strive.”

      In some cases, but not in all. You are oversimplifying an extremely complex and nuances facet of human history and culture.

      “If they did it right they would be rewarded in the afterlife.”
      Many religions have no such belief.

      “Today religion is becoming irrelevant with better education and peoples knowledge that Gods don’t control weather patterns and bad crop seasons.”

      Please do not spin fiction. Some of the most educated and refine minds in human history have come out of religious training. Just try debating with a Jesuit sometime.

      You are working a falsely constrained idea about religion, just as homophobes work a falsely constrained idea about human sexuality.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 12:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      KK Bloom

      “How does pointing out bigotry BECOME bigotry? ”

      Easy. When it crosses over to blaming, judging, maligning all people who share any trait with said bigots.

      For example, when certain people here malign all people of faith, all spirituality, all religion, all Christians, because of the bigotry of some.

      Homophobes can be pretty darn quick to provide examples of GLBTQ people who have been, shall we say, less than wonderful human beings, and then use those real examples to justify vilifying all GLBTQ people. That is bigotry.

      And people who blame all Christians for the acts of men like Timothy Dolan, or blame all religion for the crimes of Islamic terrorists, are also bigots.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 12:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      “Everyone knows religion is inherited and children are brainwashed. 95% of religious people NEVER choose their religion – it just happened to be the same one their parents had.”

      Everyone knows. Right.

      Your argument is self-defeating. After all, GLBTQ people insist that our sexual orientation is innate, not chosen, something we get from our parents, it just happens to usually be not the same one their parents had.

      Dismissing the experiences of people of faith as ‘brainwashing’ is dehumanizing and abusive. It coincidentally, parallels claims made by homophobes about homosexuality.

      The tactic you are trying to use to discredit spirituality, is the same one homophobes use to try to discredit homosexuality. If your tactic is accepted when you target people of faith, then it also works when homophobes use it on homosexuals.

      Given what a hugely obvious error that was on your part, perhaps you should refrain from summarily dismissing anyone’s post as ” the most idiotic, baseless and irrational statement”.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 12:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @David:

      Just what is it that you hope to gain by all of this inane preaching at the LGBT community?

      There has to be a kicker somewhere here for you to spend as much time at it as you do.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 12:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      @Brian:

      The DNS 4, which is the main book on disorders for therapists, has it.

      @schlukitz:

      The Episcopal church has split once again, and so now half of it will recognize gay marriage. Basically, it’s based off of the fact that God said there are many ways into his arms. So no one is wrong.

      And it does help you. He constantly fights for the Episcopal church to recognize same-sex marriage. And if it hasn’t been accepted already, it will be soon.

      Do you realize how hard it was for me to accept the fact that homosexuality is technically a disorder?
      I DO have gay friends. Two dear friends are lesbians. My boyfriend of nine months and best friend of six years (the same person) is bisexual. My UNCLE who I used to love being with and who used to take me to gem stones before he passed away recently was homosexual and had a life partner.

      I’m a part of the gay-straight alliance club in my city. I constantly fight for gay rights. Technically it’s a disorder, technically it’s an abnormality, technically it’s uncommon for a teenage boy to not have a sexual experience with another boy since that’s part of normal human development. Just put down pride for a moment and open your eyes. You’re turning on what could be the best argument for gay rights! HELP ME HERE. I’m TRYING to help the LGBTQQ community if you haven’t read my username here.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 10:11 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @str8grl4lgbtrights:

      Sorry, but using God (and the church) to convince me that homosexuality is a disorder is not going to make a believer of me.

      STR8GRL is the part of your name who is trying to tell us that we are sick and need treatment, will never convince me that you are 4LGBTRIGHTS. Obviously, your “family” of therapists is making a whole lot of money treating gays for their disorder. Little wonder that you are beating the bushes to drum up business for them. After all, it was the therapists who were telling us that we were “sick” long before the APA dropped homosexuality from it’s list of “disorders”

      HELP YOU, to convince me that I am suffering from a disorder so that you can reconcile your fucked-up relationship with the institution that created that concept of a “disorder” to begin with?

      NO FUCKING WAY!

      I don’t need to grovel and crawl on my hand and knees like the errant son, begging to be accepted by your sky-daddy and the buffoons you bow and scrape to.

      You’re turning on what could be the best argument for gay rights!

      That’s like telling me that flaying me with a whip and beating the demons out of me and burning me at the stake is for my own good and the salvation of my soul.

      BULLSHIT!

      Sep 24, 2009 at 12:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • apparentlyImnotstr8t4lgbtrights
      apparentlyImnotstr8t4lgbtrights

      @schlukitz:

      A: Please. I am not trying to make a believer of anyone. I don’t care if you believe in God or not but I do know a lot of gay people who do want to. And therefore the Episcopal church is the safest place.

      B: Please. Do not put words in my mouth. I never said homosexuals need treatment. My family of therapists are FAMILY and MARRIAGE therapists. Meaning they’re the people people go to to just talk about life. My family doesn’t care who you are. WE DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE HOMOSEXUALS.

      C: I have already accepted homosexuals. I love the LGBT community. Why? I don’t know. I just do. So go ahead and shove words into my mouth. I wont stop fighting for your rights no matter how much you bite me.

      D: Okay. Now you’re just being stupid. I’M ON YOUR SIDE FOR PETE’S SAKE. I don’t want people to stop being gay otherwise people will stop writing yaoi. Geeze. NOT EVERY STRAIGHT CHRISTIAN IS AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS. Baka….

      Sep 24, 2009 at 1:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @schlukitz:

      Schlukitz….don’t think for a moment these right wing shills who come in here to agitate are straight. They’re not, they’re just deeply closeted, conflicted people otherwise no straight man or woman in their right mind would even waste time and energy seeking out gay websites to vent and spew religious hocus pocus. These are clearly sick, demented people with a lot of sexual issues yet to be resolved. The truly genuinely straight, well adjusted person wouldn’t be affected by any of us let alone feel threatened by who we are and our struggle for full equality. If anything, they would be supportive and many are. Desperation is the last resort of these disturbed people, the same kind of desperation we’re seeing unfold in the party of hate, obstruction and negativity. They know deep down, they’re losing the cultural war around the world as we win more equality. They’re just a bunch of sore losers who are becoming more irrelevant every time they open their mouths. Long may that continue.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 1:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • onefish
      onefish

      @str8grl4lgbtrights

      I’m sorry you are being treated this way. Obviously a lot of gay people are deeply damaged by homophobia and their own issues, and that is what you are seeing in all the hate being spewed at you. I appreciate your contributions. You deserve a much more civilized response.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 1:34 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Robert, NYC:

      You’re so right. Everything you say makes a lot of sense. It’s just so hard to sit here and read all of this stuff (including the most recent apologist post of ONEFISH)and not get angry and feel the need to punch back.

      Apparently, people like ONEFISH are just fine with all the hate being spewed at him by the religious bigots, straight or otherwise.

      Forgive me, for I know not what I do. LOL

      Sep 24, 2009 at 1:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      Good news! Young people are not infected with religion.

      NO RELIGION Study: Religiously unaffiliated trend male, younger

      HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) A new report finds that the growing number of Americans who don’t claim any religious affiliation are more likely to be male, young, living in the West and politically independent.

      The new profile of America’s “No Religion Population” takes a deeper look at data collected for the American Religious Identification Survey 2008, which was released by Trinity College.

      The new report finds that American adults who claim no religious affiliation increased from 14 million in 1990 to 34 million in 2008, and grew from just over 8 percent of the population to 15 percent.

      It says most of the religiously unaffiliated in the U.S. are not atheists, but “embrace philosophical and theological beliefs that reflect skepticism rather than overt antagonism toward religion.”

      STOP BLAMING ATHEISTS. It seems young people have simply decided to “think.”

      Sep 24, 2009 at 2:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      Please… I hope you realize… I honestly am ALL for gay rights. There is no subject in the world that can and has brought me to tears faster than the way homosexuals are treated. It breaks my heart. And that’s why my senior (high school that is- I’m seventeen) media project is about gay marriage. I’m going to be spending this year influencing people to approve of gay marriage. Meanwhile, I am providing support for my friend who wishes to marry her girlfriend once she’s old enough as well as support for a new friend who was kicked out of his home for being bisexual. I am not changing them. Nobody in the LGBTQQ community needs to be changed. They are beautiful people. Everyone is beautiful, gay, straight or otherwise.

      Right now I am writing a book, it is about a month from being on sale and I have a homosexual couple in it that I have made it my goal to treat them like a normal couple. They are important side characters, and they are talked about as if they were straight (plus I have a straight couple too).

      The reason I use ‘str8tgrl’ is because I like people knowing that I am straight and I am for gay rights because it has come up in the past that just because I fight hard for gay rights, people assume I’m a lesbian. I’m not. Nothing against lesbians of course, I just like guys too much lol. Plus, one of the more inspirational pictures I’ve seen has this man with this large sign that says “Just another straight guy for gay rights.” I told some friends that you thought I was against homosexuals and that I wanted to change them. They laughed because they know that no one they know fights harder for homosexuals than I do.

      When I received the information I presented through a discussion with my mom (she’s a therapist. Keep in mind, there’s a difference between therapists, psychiatrists, and psychologists) I was horribly upset about until I realized the great opportunity it would be to shut the whole ‘is homosexuality a choice?’ debate down. It is not a choice and science has just proved it. That is what I hoped you would take from it. And that’s what I will be using in my presentations.

      As well as countless other points since it all boils down to basic human compassion, and as everyone has seen through the civil rights movement and the women’s suffrage movement, basic human compassion always triumphs. We WILL win this. It’s only a matter of time, but we ARE winning and we WILL win.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 5:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dom
      Dom

      Lemme guess.

      The writer is a homosexual liberal atheist, am I right?

      Sep 24, 2009 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dom
      Dom

      I am only guessing and I mean no harm. It just seems typical. That’s all. I have a homosexual brother. He himself sees it as a dysfunction. Of course he was abused as a young teenager by another man… repeatedly in his young adulthood… by the same man, and it’s since his FIRST abuse that he had started ‘feeling homosexual’… isn’t that just a COINCIDENCE!!! WOW!

      Oh! And my Uncle, who is ALSO gay, has NEVER had a girlfriend.. was REFUSED by women because of the way he looked as a young adolescent, and had an abusive father as well… not sexually but physically. He had no father figure, so he resorted to affection from men in a different way.. truly distorted. Now he sees no harm but admits that these things in his life had MUCH to do with his DECISION (HIS WORDS) to be a homosexual, yet he claims to have been born that way. Why would he say “DECISION”?

      Another story.. too many people take the side of science when REPEATEDLY are they reaffirming their findings and CHANGING IT ALL AROUND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. The Catholic Churches stance on it has been the same FROM THE BEGINNING. Now.. who do YOU trust? COME ON!!!!

      Sep 24, 2009 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dom
      Dom

      @David:
      AMEN brother. Way to have God on your side. It’s not that we are bigots, it’s that we follow GOD’S way of thinking.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 5:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dom
      Dom

      @terrwill:

      It’s his JOB to defend what GOD commands, fool. Read the Bible and MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, you will understand that he is only following the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, which God (Jesus Christ to be exact) began 2000 years ago. It was wrong then, and still is now. The PERSON is not wrong. It’s the behavior that is. I like this article because it chooses and picks what EVER it wants and makes the Bishop look like an idiot when, in truth, he explains WHY it’s wrong in the actual speech he commended.

      Can’t trust the media… seriously.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      @Dom:

      Homosexuality is NOT a choice. It’s the DECISION to accept who you are. Think logically on this. Why on earth would a person, a white male for instance, who is the majority and very, very well off in society- no glass ceiling, no whatever holding them back- make a ‘decision’ to make themselves the minority.

      And science keeps changing because it keeps getting more advanced. We are finding out more things than ever before because of new technology. Catholicism takes the words of a BOOK that isn’t even proven, that is told by perspectives of different people, that has been twisted and abused for 2000 years- odds are it is WRONG now with all the changes that have been made versus science which makes a decision, then retests it, then retests it, then edits it’s findings so it’s accurate. WHO DO YOU TRUST?

      Sep 24, 2009 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      Dear STR8GRL,

      Given your numerous posts on this thread, I am getting that you are sincere in your desire to help secure civil-rights for gay people and I am pleased to learn that you actually do have gay friends, both male and female.

      I don’t think it was you intention to come on this thread for the express purpose of insulting anyone or putting them down. I do think that where one of the wheels of your train of thought fell off the track, was when you introduced the word “disorder” as relating to homosexuality.

      Please understand that I have no interest in engaging you in a conversation over whether homosexuality is a disorder or not and personally, I could care less one way or the other because I do not believe it is important, nor do I need an “explanation” or a reason for my homosexuality in order to live a happy life.

      What I am trying to say is, no one likes being told that there is something amiss with them, whether true or not, even when you have qualified your comment by telling them how much you admire and love them. It’s a little like approaching someone with a club foot and saying “I see that you have a physical disorder, but that’s ok. I love people with club feet.” It just doesn’t fly or sit well with the person even if it does happen to be the truth. A little exercise in sensitivity training, if you will. ;o)

      That aside, I am delighted that you chose to share some personal aspects of yourself with us, STR8GRL. It helps us to know you better and understand where you are coming from. I think it is a wonderful thing that someone your age feels as passionately about the civil rights of a minority group as you seem to.

      And if, indeed, you are representative of the str8 youth of today then I can say, as a man old enough to be your grandfather, that I am exceedingly proud of you and happy that I have lived long enough to see the change that is taking place in the attitude of young people toward their GLBT brothers and sisters.

      If I were a religious man, I would say bless you. But since I am not, I will simply wish you a very long life filled with much happiness instead which is every bit as sincere.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 6:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Dom:

      Was there a detour and a flagman at the intersection of Straight Street and The Boulevard of Fairies that sent you in this direction?

      Sep 24, 2009 at 6:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • cgd
      cgd

      @str8grl4lgbtrights:

      I don’t think homosexuality has been listed
      in the DSM since before you were born (1987).

      I’m glad you are an ally, but straights don’t
      really own the word “normal.” Our orientation
      and relationships are just as normal as yours.
      What are straight people? A majority, most of
      whom have to worry about birth control.
      That is all.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 7:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Philip
      Philip

      @David: “Dismissing the experiences of people of faith as ‘brainwashing’ is dehumanizing and abusive.”

      No, it is accurate. Take away the “brainwashing” and let’s see what kind of experiences “people of faith” would have. People inherit religious belief. Thankfully, my parents were of different “faiths,” so they agreed to spare me. They suggested that “when I was older I’d get to study religion and make my own choice.” I did that in college. I was struck by the thousands of different belief systems – each requiring “faith.” So, as a good student, I looked up the definition of faith: “the ability to believe something you cannot prove.” That was enough for me. I chose “possibility.” I chose to live my life open to everything and not settle for some ancient, unproven (and many times quite goofy)”story.” I chose to believe in “I don’t know, neither do you – and that’s okay.”

      I’m quite happy. Now, where is my equality? Especially all of you that use “religion” to demean LGBT people – why is your “story” more important than my equality? You can believe whatever story you’ve inherited, but you can’t deny my equality – I think you’re crazy, but I won’t stop you from demonstrating that. you can have your beliefs – I demand my equality.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 7:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      DOM

      Though I suspect that you are a sockpuppet created by one of the atheists here, since you dragged me into your fantasy . . .

      “I have a homosexual brother. He himself sees it as a dysfunction.”

      Many heterosexuals perceive their sexuality as a dysfunction. Some people see their arms, legs, other body parts as dysfunctional. Your anecdote is worthless to GLBTQ people who do not experience any dysfunction in their sexuality. The fact is, for GLBTQ people, heterosexuality often appears to by dysfunctional.

      “Of course he was abused as a young teenager by another man… repeatedly in his young adulthood… by the same man, and it’s since his FIRST abuse that he had started ‘feeling homosexual’… isn’t that just a COINCIDENCE!!! WOW!”

      If it didn’t sound like fiction, it would be coincidence or just bias on your part. Understand, the facts about sexual molestation are well documented. The majority of all victims of sexual molestation, at any age, self-identify as heterosexual as adults. Most GLBTQ people have not been sexually molested. Heterosexual women in the U.S. experience a shockingly high rate of sexual abuse from males, a level orders of magnitude greater than the incidence of lesbianism.

      Perhaps the truth of your brother’s experience is that he became aware of his sexual orientation, entered into a relationship (healthy or not) and in response to your overt bigotry, has chosen to portray it negatively to appease you.

      As for your uncle, if he exists – there is no correlation between abusive fathers and sexual orientation. Many heterosexual men had fathers who physically, emotionally, even sexually abused them, and many gay men had fathers who did not abuse them in any way.

      “He had no father figure, so he resorted to affection from men in a different way.. truly distorted.”

      Many heterosexual men grew up without a father figure, many homosexual men had ordinary imperfect but certainly present fathers. Some had truly Cosby-esque fathers, ideal role models who encouraged sports and education.

      “It’s his JOB to defend what GOD commands, fool.”

      God does not command the prejudice the Archbishop has expressed. By the way, Jesus has something to say about calling other people ‘fool':
      “Matthew 5:22 (New International Version)

      22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[a]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,[b]‘ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”

      “Read the Bible and MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, you will understand that he is only following the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, which God (Jesus Christ to be exact) began 2000 years ago.”

      So, given that you called someone fool, perhaps you have some reading of your own to do.

      Your claim that Jesus began the Catholic Church is a bit of a stretch. The Catholic Church is one of the surviving schools of religious thought that arose in the first three centuries after Christ’s ministry. There is a difference.

      “It was wrong then, and still is now. The PERSON is not wrong. It’s the behavior that is.”

      Homosexuality is not wrong, neither the orientation itself, nor the ‘behavior'(a cop out term by the way) violate anything Jesus commanded. However, the Catholic Church has a long history of violating Christ’s commands, from its accumulation of obscene amounts of wealth, to wielding political power, to idolatry.

      Lovemaking between two people of the same gender no more violates any of Christ’s teachings, than lovemaking between two people of different genders does.

      Yes, you and anyone else who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ are indeed bigots, and you are deliberately disobeying the commands of Jesus Christ. Your condemnation of the most intimate and beautiful, loving and enriching parts of peoples lives does violate Christ’s commands, and the Catholic Church’s attempt to coerce and persecute GLBTQ people, over the course of centuries, is disobedience and a rejection of Jesus Christ.

      Keep in mind, DOM, that Jesus gave an explicit test for evaluating teachers like the Archbishop, and teachings like ‘homosexuality is sin’. In Matthew 7, starting at verse 15, Jesus tells about good trees vs. bad trees, as a metaphor for good teaching vs. bad teaching, good teachers vs. false teachers.

      “15”Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

      21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”

      All of the fruit of ‘homosexuality is sin’ are destructive, evil, degrading and abusive. Nothing good comes of it at all. It is a teaching that bears only evil fruit, and therefore, per Jesus, it does not come from God.

      The fruit of the Archbishop’s work has been destructive as well, he has worked to further injustice, to harm other people, to deprive people of a basic civil right, and in doing so, he has shamed Christianity, and made it the object of hate from atheists. That’s evil fruit.

      It doesn’t matter, as Jesus points out in verses 22 and 23, if the Archbishop does his evil in Christ’s name, he is still working evil, and in the end:

      “23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”

      Your false assertion about the article above, by the way, is a case of bearing false witness. The Catholic Catechism still contains ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness’, does it not?

      Lastly, DOM, don’t ever presume, even for a second, that I support your prejudice and bigotry against GLBTQ people just because I condemn bigotry and prejudice against people of faith. Both prejudices, all bigotries, are equally reprehensible, equally vile.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 7:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Philip
      Philip

      @David: Dude, you ARE crazy. Who brainwashed you? You don’t make a bit of sense – you just ramble on incoherently. What a mess.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 7:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      @schlukitz:

      I’m sorry how I came off… I will definitely take that knowledge with me. And it means a lot. It really does, thank you very much for your kind words ^^

      @cgd:

      It has been listed in it, but in the updated one my mom says it probably wont be.

      And well, it’s kinda tricky when talking about ‘normal.’ On one hand, as a species, it is normal to want to procreate to carry on the species and homosexuality doesn’t biologically allow that without any outside help like surrogate mothers, sperm donors etc. But then again, technically ten percent of any given population is homosexual, so it would be abnormal to not have anyone homosexual. So therefore, it’s not abnormal because of the way relationships go, and it’s not abnormal because it’s there, it’s just… tricky.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 7:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Philip

      “No, it is accurate. ”

      No, it is not. Keep in mind, you are lying about my life, to me. Calling my experiences ‘brainwashing’ is hate speech.

      More importantly, dismissing the experiences of people of faith as brainwashing, or mental illness, is the exact same tactic homophobes do about GLBTQ people.

      “Take away the “brainwashing” and let’s see what kind of experiences “people of faith” would have. People inherit religious belief.”

      Take away tradition and education and training and let’s see what kind of experiences people of faith have. Pretty varied, actually. That’s pretty much how most of the divisions within religions have come about – people experienced some nuance about the Divine that was different from what previous generations had experienced. People most certainly do not inherit religious belief, if they did, religious instruction would not exist. Your own account is a case of someone who did not inherit religion.

      Like science, and the arts, and history, and philosophy, religion – the accumulated knowledge about the Divine – is taught.

      Ironically, if it were inherited, you’d be taking one of the arguments used to defend homosexuality, and using as a negative, arguing that something is wrong because it is inherited. That’s not a smart move.

      Keep in mind, as well, that as you hunger for equality, that most of the people who are working to make civil equality for GLBTQ people possible, are people of faith, just as most of the people who worked, are working for racial equality, and gender equality, and economic equality, and other kinds of equality, are people of faith.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 7:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Philip

      Your insult laden empty dismissal pretty much cancels itself out.

      If you’d made the effort to quote something you perceived as ‘incoherent’, thus giving me the opportunity to clarify whatever confused you, your remarks might have some meaning. But the empty dismissal you offered is simply a great big fail.

      Your empty dismissal really only testifies about you, Philip. Personally, I think your dismissal indicates two things:

      1) you realized that cannot refute anything I wrote
      2) you are more interested in bad-mouthing people of faith, than in countering anti-gay theology

      Sep 24, 2009 at 7:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • onefish
      onefish

      @Dom

      The Catholic Church has rather bad reputation as a result of it’s insensitivity to sexual abuse. The crass use of your family history of abuse to score cheap points rather reinforces this reputation. If you love the Church so much, you should not parade around your insensitivity to abuse (and to your family) the way your are. I feel deeply sorry for your brother and uncle that their stories have been abused in this way.

      You won’t believe me, but the truth is that God has very little to do with your understanding of Him. God is good, and God made gay people so that we could marry and love each other and raise children and make the world a better place through our love. God is not on the side of the powerful, and when Jesus came, he was loving and tender to everyone except the hypocrites of established religion, to whom he promised destruction. You will know this eventually, and you will know what a terrible sin your bigotry is. But, if you repent, you will be forgiven because God is more just and more merciful than you can imagine.

      Sep 24, 2009 at 8:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jimi doss
      Jimi doss

      @B:

      The bible also says that divorce is a sin !!!! And that an adlutress wife should be stoned to death ,, What about that ??????

      Sep 24, 2009 at 11:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @Dom:

      So how do you explain the references at http://www.fallwell.com which the majority of jews and socalled “christians” deliberately ignore except the Leviticus mantra? You either believe everything in the bible or you don’t, you can’t cherry pick this or that to suit your own comfort level, conveniently at that. To put it crudely, shit or get off the pot.

      Molesting young children be they straight or gay does NOT determine their sexual orientation. Does a straight male molesting a girl or woman compel the victims to become lesbians? Where is the scientic evidence for that? We do not choose our sexual orientation, IT chooses us. Its quite revealing when it comes to a male molesting a boy, the victim is always purported to “turn gay”, but when its a female, its ignored or discarded, just as straight priests molesting girls was played down.

      FYI, I was raised in a loving family, two loving parents, excellent role models, neither one dominant or absent or depriving me of affection. How come my two brothers, one older and one younger than I, didn’t turn out to be gay? We were raised the same way,did all the masculine things that boys are supposed to do and I even dated girls in my teens. That absentee father nonsense or dominant mother is a red herring. There are millions of single parents in the world raising children on their own and the majority of their children do not become gay, just as millions of children raised by same-sex parents do not become gay. Your argument is flawed and not credible.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 8:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @str8grl4lgbtrights:

      So how do you address straight couples who choose NOT to procreate or can’t, abnormal?

      Sep 25, 2009 at 8:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @David:

      David, I agree with much of what you say which backs up what I said on post 117 to Dom. Well said.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 8:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • cgd
      cgd

      @str8grl4lgbtrights:

      Are you writing from a time-warp from the early 1970s?
      Homosexuality was dropped from the DSM as a disorder in 1973!
      You and your mom have some serious catching up to do.

      APA (psychiatrists),2000:
      “In the current social climate, claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder stems from efforts to discredit the growing social acceptance of homosexuality as a normal variant of human sexuality.”

      Link:
      http://tinyurl.com/ydzjeyu

      There’s a lot of beautiful diversity out here. Embrace it. Don’t stigmatize it.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 9:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nikko
      nikko

      DAVID I thought your post #110 was perfect. It is what I believe professing christians are in danger of come judgement day. Also,ROBERTNYC, you’re so right. “christians” claim to believe and follow the WHOLE bible (impossible by the way) but in reality they cherry pick what they want and can, because it’s quite a mess to try and follow so many obscene, draconian, offensive laws. And undesirable, may I say?

      Sep 25, 2009 at 9:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      @Robert, NYC:
      Looking at basics instincts in the animal kingdom and such, yes. It is abnormal to not want children or to be sterile. That’s why there’s a rather small percentage of it.

      @cgd:

      … *sigh*
      Whatever you say. I’m tired of saying this, but I’ll say it again: I’M ON YOUR SIDE.
      If you had really payed attention to what I was saying, I was talking about using this for our cause to stop the discrimination towards LGBTs. I view it as more like synesthesia. I have that as well does one of my friends when two senses mix. It’s fun to have and makes life more interesting. Can I chose to have it? No. I don’t make that decision.

      PLEASE READ MY HEART FELT POST BEFORE YOU COMMENT otherwise I get frustrated and can’t do anything all day. I’m trying to get into college. I don’t need someone saying I’m trying to change gay people and that I need to ‘embrace’ them. I already embrace them Einstein.

      But this was my way of thinking: If it’s something that occurs in the embryotic stage then it can’t be helped and then all this crap about homosexuality being a ‘choice’ will go down the gutter.

      I actually had a discussion with my friend who thought it was HILARIOUS that people thought I was against gay rights. Here’s my discussion:
      [14:28] Me: You know what was funny?
      [14:28] Cian Mahoney: what?
      [14:28] Me: This one person, for some reason, thought I was against gay righs
      [14:28] Me: *rights
      [14:28] Cian Mahoney: What?!
      [14:28] Cian Mahoney: XD
      [14:28] Me: My boyfriend just laughed XD
      [14:28] Me: (he’s bi)
      [14:28] Cian Mahoney: thats awesome
      [14:29] Me: Yeah… they tried to get into an argument with me over it…. I thought “Um… All my guy characters are gay.”
      [14:29] Cian Mahoney: XD
      [14:29] Cian Mahoney: thats really sad
      [14:29] Cian Mahoney: some people need to get a life
      [14:29] Me: Yeah XD Especially when they’re arguing with someone on their side XD

      For the record, I do write a lot, and for some reason, the majority of my guy characters turn out to be gay. It’s so cute… one of my characters just asked his boyfriend to marry him in our ideal world. It was adorable <3

      Sep 25, 2009 at 10:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @str8grl4lgbtrights:

      Ok. So, since straight couples who marry and who choose not to procreate or can’t, why is it that straight right wingers and religious wackos when arguing against marriage equality don’t address that or call for a referendum to ban straights of that ilk from marrying or seniors beyond child bearing years if their argument is that the primary purpose of marriage is for procreation? They can’t have it both ways, its either all or nothing.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 10:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      @Robert, NYC:

      Because religious wackos or straight right wingers are stupid and lack basic human compassion and common sense.
      I’m on your side baka. Read my last post.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 10:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @nikko:

      Nikko, glad you caught my drift. Also, in the old testament, I forget which part, polygamy is also allowed but contradicted in other parts. Amazing that is totally ignored when the right wing wackos bring up the marriage equality issue that they claim would usher in polygamy, bestiality and incest. Incest by the way is permitted in the old testament if you subscribe to the myth that Adam and Eve were the first hetero parents of the human race. Apparently, they had several children which begs the question…if that were the case and could be proved, how on earth did the planet become populated? The more I’ve thought about it, I can only draw an obvious conclusion that incest must have occurred for that to have taken place, among the siblings and with the parents. There is no mention of god condemning it if I recall. Obviously he or it saw that it was good. They weren’t smitten nor did they burn in a mythical hell for it. You can bet the religious bigots will come up with some irrational response or excuse for that, but at the same time would have to concede that they believe it is good because they always claim they believe in the scriptures to justify homophobia.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 10:55 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • cgd
      cgd

      @str8grl4lgbtrights:

      Print and wear a T-shirt saying : “It is abnormal to not want children or to be sterile.”

      Tell me what kind of reactions you get.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 11:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @cgd:

      I’m with you on that, only I’d add a bit more to the t-shirt or even a banner. It would read…”It is abnormal for straight married couples to not want children or be sterile”. I can imagine the back lash that would create between progressive straights and the religious cultists. I would sit back and enjoy the brawl, in fact it could well have a positive impact on support for marriage equality when they see their own marriages threatened or those intending to wed but not procreate. Oh would that be a wonderful moment to relish.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 11:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Philip
      Philip [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @str8grl4lgbtrights: Thank you for confusing the conversation and taking some of the emphasis off that fact-less religion “pimp” David. You both has the craziest “nothing” to say.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 11:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      @cgd:

      I don’t NEED to wear a shirt. Couples who don’t want children get bashed for it all the time.

      *headdesk**headdesk*

      What is anyone trying to gain starting an argument with me?!
      Seriously… I’m FOR gay rights. I’m not saying ANYTHING anymore!! How come schlukitz understood that? If you hadn’t noticed, people are starting arguments with ME.

      I’m only seventeen! All I’m trying to do is make it so that homosexuals have the right to marry and get equality in all aspects of life. You guys are seriously making me cry.

      I fight so hard for LGBTQ equality. Today at a college visit I went to the LGBTQ community and asked if they had any sources that would help my on my media project in which I’m trying to persuade people to vote for gay rights. I’ve lost friends over it. And you ASSHOLES are attacking me.

      Can you seriously read what I write and stop trolling me? It’s really upsetting me that I’m being attacked by the very same community that I’ve spent the better half of my high school career defending.

      schlukitz… if you’re still there… can you help me… please? I can’t do this on my own…

      Sep 25, 2009 at 8:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • onefish
      onefish

      @str8grl4lgbtrights

      You are good a person. You are not being attacked by the gay community, only by one or two trolls. I really appreciate your work for equality, and I think I speak for most people here.

      Unfortunately, you said a couple of things that have pressed some buttons, but you deserved a civilized and respectful response. No one here, for instance, will agree that homosexuality is a disorder, even in the technical sense of the word. People should have said this nicely.

      The sad truth is that some gay people have completely given up on gay rights or doing anything productive, and would rather vent unproductively against straight allies who actually are doing productive things. Thank you again for your equality work.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 9:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      @onefish:

      Thank you so much for your kind words. It’s really helpful, especially right now, I’ve been sick and now I’ve been crying and so now I have double boogers.

      I am so, so sorry. I really thought it would help… especially the way my mind was looking at it…. I’m sorry!

      I’m just gonna go watch some Will and Grace or something….

      Sep 25, 2009 at 9:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      @David: “And people who blame all Christians for the acts of men like Timothy Dolan, or blame all religion for the crimes of Islamic terrorists, are also bigots.”

      I have to agree with the many people commenting about your bullshit. Like the above statement, YOU are the ONLY person using the word “all.” If someone even dislikes a certain religion, you accuse them of “blaming all Christians.”

      I’ve seen it numerous times – it’s pathetic.

      If anyone on here judges your comments by “total word count,” perhaps a few believe you are smart and helpful. I suspect the opposite. Many of us think you’re here for only one reason – to protect your employer – religion.

      Sep 25, 2009 at 9:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @str8grl4lgbtrights:

      After reading your last couple of posts and your personal appeal to me for help, I felt a lump in my chest and tears coming to my eyes. The paternal instinct in me wanted to reach out to you, protect you, comfort you and tell you that everything will be okay.

      Onefish beat me to the punch with his post and said pretty much the same thing I was feeling and wanted to say to you as well and I am glad that he did.

      I’m truly sorry that you haven’t been feeling well and that your efforts to help are bringing you only frustration and pain and reducing you to tears. I can relate to what you are feeling, in much the same way as some of the posters on these threads who keep throwing cold water on the upcoming March in Washington, DC.
      Instead of supporting their LGBT brothers and sisters, they seem only to want to deride the efforts of those who believe in what they are doing.

      I agree with Onefish that those who disagreed with your stance that homosexuality is a disorder, might have said it in a nicer manner. Having been a blogger on this site for quite some time now I can, however, relate to and understand the anger and the annoyance many of us feel toward the numerous people like BramNash, David, S&M, Youcanthandlethetruth and other wing-nuts and homophobes whose only purpose for coming here to belittle, denigrate and condemn LGBT people. Many of us, unfortunately, have developed short fuses as a result of this ongoing verbal abuse and efforts to divide the LGBT community.

      Clearly, you are not one of those people and you have oft repeated your assurances that you are on our side, not against us. We have no reason to disbelieve that. I am certain that Onefish and I speak for most of the people who post on these threads when we say much we appreciate your equality work and will not choose to abandon the cause.

      As with all causes, however, and as I have painfully learned in my lifetime, not everyone is going to agree with you or the manner in which you seek to effect change. Everyone has their own idea as to how that should be done, as you’ve already probably witnessed on these threads. Do not let that dissuade you. As the old saw goes, it comes with the territory. ;o)

      If I might suggest, rather than focusing on getting the approval of people who post on Queerty, perhaps you might find that focusing your energies on the equality issues themselves, as opposed to doing battle with the naysayers, might bring you a deeper sense of satisfaction and happiness as you pursue the goals of equality for all.

      There is no doubt that reaching the goal of equality for all is definitely the name of the game. However, keep in mind, that it is not the approval or the applause you receive for your efforts in making that happen.

      The real reward will be the deep sense of satisfaction you will experience in the knowledge that you played a very important part in bring that accomplishment into reality.

      Keep the faith, girlfriend. We too are with you, not against you. :)

      Sep 25, 2009 at 11:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Philip

      It is rather pathetic that you are still posting insults about me, considering that the posts you didn’t understand refute the many lies homophobes tell about GLBTQ people.

      One might conclude that you wish people to believe that DOM’s remarks are rational, appropriate and accurate.

      Rob

      Your empty dismissal, composed entirely of insults, indicates that you also cannot refute my statement using facts, logic and reason.

      Perhaps you and Philip should consider at least what the Archbishop had to say about anger-management issues.

      “YOU are the ONLY person using the word “all.” If someone even dislikes a certain religion, you accuse them of “blaming all Christians.”

      At some point in their education, by middle school if not before, students learn that words have meanings. Religion, used without any modifying term, means any and all constructs of beliefs that fit the definition.

      By middle school at least, students learn that to communicate about only a portion of the people, ideas, elements contained within a large concept like ‘religion’ or ‘Christianity’, it is necessary to use modifying phrases and concepts, like ‘conservative’ or ‘traditional’.

      In other words, Rob, a phrase stating ‘Religion made us wrong’, for example, is 1) blaming all religions, because there is no concept in the phrase limiting the concept religion to only those that teach ‘homosexuality is sin’, and 2) inflicting on everyone the judgment “wrong”, whether they agree with it or not.

      I realize that public schools have been terribly crowded and underfunded, so your lack of understanding about how words work may not be entirely your fault. I suggest you buy yourself a copy of William Strunk’s “Elements of Style” to upgrade your understanding of the English language. With that accomplished, you might actually grasp that the much of the post you object to repudiates and refutes the traditional interpretation ‘homosexuality is sin’.

      By the way, I’m self-employed. Wild guesses like “to protect your employer – religion’ indicate very poor communication skills.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 1:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      str8grl4lgbtrights

      Regarding your statement: “as a species, it is normal to want to procreate to carry on the species and homosexuality doesn’t biologically allow that without any outside help like surrogate mothers, sperm donors etc”

      Sexuality on earth is actually far more diverse than that. The ‘reproduction is every being’s goal’ idea is actually more a product of Calvinist/Catholic theology, than biology.

      In many, many species, only a percentage of individuals reproduce, with the majority of their siblings or relatives setting aside their own reproductive opportunities to contribute the reproductive success of “alpha” couples. You certainly know about a few examples – social insects like bees and ants and termites, and highly social mammals like wolves and lions. But there are many other species that do so as well, primarily, highly social animals with large for their body size brains, and longer periods of infancy.

      It is also in these same kinds of animals – highly social ones whose young required extended care, that homosexuality occurs in nature. Like lions, elephants, bonobo chimps, a number of species of birds that nest in large flocks, wolves, cats, and so on. Homosexuality is much rarer in animals that are very solitary, or have very simple, small brains.

      In other words, one could very accurately say that is normal on earth for some members of species that are highly social, whose young required significant time and resources to rear to independence, for some individuals to forgo reproducing and instead contribute the the success of their tribe/pack/flock/herd/group mates. Like humans.

      Homosexuality is simply one of the normal variations of sexuality found on earth, part of a hugely varied collection of strategies that include simply splitting in half as many unicellular organisms do, to changing gender over the course of life like many fish, hermphrodism – having both genders simultaneously, found in many plants and number of invertebrates, to having thousands of genders like some molds. And then there’s the really unusual strategies, like parthenogenis – several species of lizards that are entirely female, and other species that can reproduce sexually, or asexually, as the environment dictates.

      It is truly amazing how much diversity there is in sexuality on this planet. There is even a growing body of evidence and argumentation refuting the premise that reproductive success is the only driving force of evolution and species diversity; there are too many traits that appear to contribute nothing to reproductive success, and yet are retained, passed on, and even favored in different living things on earth.

      Additionally, GLBTQ people are capable of reproducing to exactly the same degree as heterosexuals. We may be less satisfied emotionally, spiritually, physically and intellectually by the sex acts when we engage in them with someone of the opposite gender, but we are not intrinsically infertile.

      And many GLBTQ people do want to have kids, many heterosexuals do not. Many do it the old fashioned way, others adopt or use surrogates and IV fertilization. Just like hets.

      Interestingly, some of the research on the genetic component of some male homosexuality links it to a specific gene site – in a woman, the genes there increase her fertility and give her wider hips for easier and safer delivery, but the same gene in her brother increases his odds of being gay, and thus, available to help her raise her children.

      Life is really far too complex and nuanced for generalizations like ‘normal’ to have much use any more.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      @str8grl4lgbtrights: My pal Schlukitz said it as perfectly as I ever could, so I’m just going to add a big, fat co-sign on his post. Don’t let people on a mere website upset you. It’s useless.

      And here’s a little proverb I repeat to myself if I do think I’m getting a bit overemotional. Maybe it will be of use to you.

      If people are losing their tempers over something you’ve said, chances are it was what needed to be said.

      I think you’re intelligent enough to get what I mean by that. Seriously, though, don’t let these blowhards bring you down. Queerty is chock full of bitter queens who love nothing more than to make people feel bad about themselves. Be open to criticism, but pay no attention to mindless hostility. They’re already a lot worse off than you’ll ever be.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 3:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      @David: You really are an idiot. Yeah, I’ll use names for you – you pollute this site with your “religion is the answer” bull shit. You deny the fact that only religion has made homosexuality wrong. Your defense of the institution of religion is pathetic.

      You said: “In other words, Rob, a phrase stating ‘Religion made us wrong’, for example, is 1) blaming all religions, because there is no concept in the phrase limiting the concept religion to only those that teach ‘homosexuality is sin’, and 2) inflicting on everyone the judgment “wrong”, whether they agree with it or not.”

      Another “nothing” comment from you. Gee whiz, which religions do not teach that homosexuality is wrong? Which Christians have ended that belief? For a change, please provide some evidence – even a shred of evidence would be an accomplishment for you.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 11:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh

      @David: Dude, I’ve read all your lengthy comments and I can’t find anything of “value.” You are full of hot air. The only thing I can conclude is that you “love” religion. I know religion finances every battle against us. So, in addition to being full of nothing, you’re on the wrong team.

      I don’t pray very often, but I am going to pray that you go away. Please God. Take him away.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 11:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nikko
      nikko

      Thanks for post#135, DAVID. That was fantastic and interesting!I bought Bruce Bagemihl’s book “Biological Exuberance” many years ago. Nature indeed!

      Sep 26, 2009 at 12:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Rob, Josh

      The best reply to your abusive behavior is something ironic that vernonvanderbilt just posted:

      “If people are losing their tempers over something you’ve said, chances are it was what needed to be said.”

      You are angry. Your rage doesn’t disprove anything I’ve written.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 1:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @David: I’m not angry. But, as usual you didn’t respond to the content of my comment or anyones. You have offered nothing but silly accusations and an “on-your-knees” defense of religion.

      I just think you’re very obviously “empty.’ Leave it at that.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 1:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      @Rob: I have asked you three times: “Gee whiz, which religions do not teach that homosexuality is wrong? Which Christians have ended that belief? For a change, please provide some evidence – even a shred of evidence would be an accomplishment for you.”

      In your latest reply you accuse me of being “angry.” I have to ask, are you on medication?

      You replied by saying: “You are angry. Your rage doesn’t disprove anything I’ve written.”

      Ahhhh, you haven’t written anything of “substance.” You just type in circles and accuse people of being anti-religion. Maybe some are, but many more are now anti-David. Enough with the religion-is-everything bull shit. You can’t answer a single question. it’s no wonder religion is going out of business.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 1:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      ^ That was for say-nothing-of-substance David.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 1:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Rob:

      You can’t answer a single question.

      That is precisely how they have managed to stay “in business” for the past two thousand years. They don’t have to answer questions. As a “believer”, the onus is on you to have “faith”.

      Mind-fucking has always been their stock and trade and only “product”. David and all the Pope’s men are are simply “salespeople”…robots who repeat their sales speil, over and over, mindlessly. Think of them in the same way you would think of the prerecorded message we get when we call a company. Press 1 for sales. Press 2 for billing. Yada, yada, yada.

      The time frame in which they will “go out of business”, is directly proportional to how quickly the “customers” get wise to them and stop “patronizing” them. LOL

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      @schlukitz: Faith is for people unwilling to figure something out on their own. I think it’s lazy.

      I appreciate your comments.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • schlukitz
      schlukitz

      @Rob:

      Faith is for people unwilling to figure something out on their own. I think it’s lazy.

      I could not agree with you more! ;o)

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Josh:

      Denial is not an effective communication strategy. If your post isn’t communicating anger, then you are simply an abusive person who enjoy vilifying and maligning other people. Anger, misplaced or not, is understandable. Malice is not.

      “as usual you didn’t respond to the content of my comment”

      Of course I responded, post 140 is a response to your remarks. It is not the response you wanted, perhaps, and it doesn’t not take your false claims apart piece by piece, but – since your posts have been little more than empty dismissals, there isn’t much in them to work with.

      Had you made a genuine effort to challenge even one actual point I had made, you’d have gotten a more detailed reply. But, since you ask:

      “Dude, I’ve read all your lengthy comments and I can’t find anything of “value.””

      Your inability to do anything does not define reality. In the posts you dismiss I:
      point out that not all heterosexuals are happy about their sexual orientation

      repudiate the myth that sexual abuse is causes homosexuality

      demonstrate that heterosexual and homosexual men experience
      parallel levels of good and bad parenting, abuse, support

      refute the correlation between any parental influence and sexual orientation

      chastize DOM for name-calling

      repudiate the teaching ‘homosexuality is sin’

      point out the hypocrisy of the RCC

      correct a false claim about the birth of the RCC

      point out that those who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’ are practicing bigotry

      To list just a few of the points I’ve made that you dismiss as ‘of no value’.

      “You are full of hot air.”

      Though you used that as an empty dismissal, the fact is that the human body is mostly water.

      “The only thing I can conclude is that you “love” religion.”
      Actually, I love God. Religion is a thing, the complex and hugely varied accumulation of people’s experiences, opinions, testimony and ideas about God. To love the thing would be idolatry, and your accusation is both reprehensible, and false.

      “I know religion finances every battle against us.”

      So you think you know something that happens to be false. Bully for you.

      People of faith have also provided the majority of support in the battles for civil equality for GLBTQ people. The majority of voters who support GLBTQ people, are people of faith, not atheists. You are over-simplifying a hugely complex circumstance, and that is not honest.

      “So, in addition to being full of nothing, you’re on the wrong team.”

      Clearly though, your first clause is false and your second as well. By the way, it really isn’t possible for something to be ‘full of nothing’.

      Looking over your post, there is a complete lack of any substantive argument or position, other than attacks on my character and empty, false claims about my posts.

      “You have offered nothing but silly accusations and an “on-your-knees” defense of religion.”

      The above, therefore, is simply a lie, a false claim with no basis in reality. The quoted phrase doesn’t appear in any way, shape or form in my posts, it is not implied or insinuated in anything I have presented. Especially when my post to str8grl4lgbtrights was a reasonably full, accurate account of the diversity of sexuality on earth, and testified to the diversity of experiences and desires of GLBTQ people as regards reproduction.

      It appears that you are so needful to discredit people of faith, any person of faith, that you’ll even denounce arguments that defend and celebrate GLBTQ people.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      Rob

      On multiple threads, fundamentalists atheists have demand evidence of denominations or religions that reject ‘homosexuality is sin’, and when provided with that evidence, summarily rejected it.

      I personally have posted links to MCC and UUA websites that explicitly reject the idea that homosexuality is sin, only to have the information rejected out of hand.

      Your posts to me have been composed almost entirely of empty dismisals, the rest being insults and falsehoods. While I have addressed many questions, in detail, no one has yet provided even one example of an explicitly atheist organization that is working to create civil equality for GLBTQ people.

      You demand, but provide nothing.

      “Enough with the religion-is-everything bull shit.”

      At no point in any of my posts have I made anything even remotely close to possibly suggesting ‘religion is everything’. You are relying on falsehoods, and false accusations, and that reflects very poorly on you, and on your position.

      Instead of making false claims, Rob, and inventing things I’ve never posted, why not make a real effort and tackle something I actually wrote.

      As for evidence, you demand, but provide nothing. I’ve already, and consistently, exceeded the standard you set in your own posts, Rob.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Josh
      Josh [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @David: You said: “Denial is not an effective communication strategy. If your post isn’t communicating anger, then you are simply an abusive person who enjoy vilifying and maligning other people. Anger, misplaced or not, is understandable. Malice is not.
      “as usual you didn’t respond to the content of my comment”
      Of course I responded, post 140 is a response to your remarks. It is not the response you wanted, perhaps, and it doesn’t not take your false claims apart piece by piece, but – since your posts have been little more than empty dismissals, there isn’t much in them to work with.
      Had you made a genuine effort to challenge even one actual point I had made, you’d have gotten a more detailed reply. But, since you ask:
      “Dude, I’ve read all your lengthy comments and I can’t find anything of “value.””
      Your inability to do anything does not define reality. In the posts you dismiss I:
      point out that not all heterosexuals are happy about their sexual orientation
      repudiate the myth that sexual abuse is causes homosexuality
      demonstrate that heterosexual and homosexual men experience
      parallel levels of good and bad parenting, abuse, support
      refute the correlation between any parental influence and sexual orientation
      chastize DOM for name-calling
      repudiate the teaching ‘homosexuality is sin’
      point out the hypocrisy of the RCC
      correct a false claim about the birth of the RCC
      point out that those who teach ‘homosexuality is sin’ are practicing bigotry
      To list just a few of the points I’ve made that you dismiss as ‘of no value’.
      “You are full of hot air.”
      Though you used that as an empty dismissal, the fact is that the human body is mostly water.
      “The only thing I can conclude is that you “love” religion.”
      Actually, I love God. Religion is a thing, the complex and hugely varied accumulation of people’s experiences, opinions, testimony and ideas about God. To love the thing would be idolatry, and your accusation is both reprehensible, and false.
      “I know religion finances every battle against us.”
      So you think you know something that happens to be false. Bully for you.
      People of faith have also provided the majority of support in the battles for civil equality for GLBTQ people. The majority of voters who support GLBTQ people, are people of faith, not atheists. You are over-simplifying a hugely complex circumstance, and that is not honest.
      “So, in addition to being full of nothing, you’re on the wrong team.”
      Clearly though, your first clause is false and your second as well. By the way, it really isn’t possible for something to be ‘full of nothing’.
      Looking over your post, there is a complete lack of any substantive argument or position, other than attacks on my character and empty, false claims about my posts.
      “You have offered nothing but silly accusations and an “on-your-knees” defense of religion.”
      The above, therefore, is simply a lie, a false claim with no basis in reality. The quoted phrase doesn’t appear in any way, shape or form in my posts, it is not implied or insinuated in anything I have presented. Especially when my post to str8grl4lgbtrights was a reasonably full, accurate account of the diversity of sexuality on earth, and testified to the diversity of experiences and desires of GLBTQ people as regards reproduction.
      It appears that you are so needful to discredit people of faith, any person of faith, that you’ll even denounce arguments that defend and celebrate GLBTQ people.”

      And, once again – no answer. Which Christian denominations have ended the traditional Christian belief that “homosexuality is wrong, sinful and deviant.” You had four chances to answer that and still have not named a single denomination or church.

      You never answer anything. How helpless you are.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Marina
      Marina

      @Jason: @Jason: You’re an asshole, as bad as the Christians you condemn.

      And Queers don’t go around fucking boys? pediastry anyone?

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      @David: “I personally have posted links to MCC and UUA websites that explicitly reject the idea that homosexuality is sin, only to have the information rejected out of hand.”

      They DO NOT explicitly reject the idea. Each website has an article “questioning” the Biblical interpretation of homosexuality written in the 70s. Neither group has “rejected” the Christian belief that homosexuals are wrong.

      Hanging up a rainbow flag and collecting donations is not quite the same as rejecting that traditional Christian belief.

      So, keep looking. There is no evidence that either MCC or UUA has officially rejected the belief. Perhaps you and others believe that, but there is no evidence. It would be a big and welcome step for both organizations, and quite frankly, it’s very odd that they haven’t done so yet.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      @David: I agree David “no answer” is just useless.

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • str8grl4lgbtrights
      str8grl4lgbtrights

      @schlukitz:
      @vernonvanderbilt:

      Thank you so very much for your support. It really does mean a lot to me. Yesterday i was also a bit extra-emotional, and like I’ve said, no topic hits me harder than this one. I don’t really know why though. But also yesterday was just a shitty day in general.

      I came here by accident actually, but I do see many things I can use for my media project. Even though I know a lot of the information I probably will have to double check, it’s really a good source in general. So I will poke around for more things I can use.

      And as much of a sour taste I’ve gotten for religion because it seems all the stupid people concentrate around religion, and they’re really funny when you get them irritated, I am kinda semi sorta religious… I believe in God… but I think that people are full of shit when talking about the bible. The only ‘laws’ for me are the ten commandments… and that’s like… common sense. Unless someone here thinks it’s okay to go out and kill someone/steal someone’s stuff/cheat on their lover/falsely accuse someone of something. But that’s a different problem all together.

      I don’t want an argument about religion, I don’t care what you believe or whatever, my close group of friends is full of Atheists, Agnostics, Christians, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, etc. (though most of my friends are Jewish or Atheists… and one of my friends hit me over the head for being what he claimed to be ‘diet Catholic.’ It was funny). And my Catholic republican grandmother on the topic of voting for gay marriage said: “What business is it of anyone what anyone else does? Focus on your own damn life!” So… even though I do often want to beat bible thumpers down with a really thin stick, not everyone who believes in God is insane. Just most of them.

      I kinda just wanna talk now. And be really immature cause I’m a lot happier today since I got the help of the LGBTQ community in my city helping me with my project by giving me sources.

      I mentioned before yaoi, and so though I think you might know what that is, unless you’re an anime nerd like me I don’t know for sure.

      Yaoi: Guy/Guy, usually explicit depending if it’s hard yaoi or soft yaoi. (Titles include: You’re my Love Prize in the Viewfinder and Love is Like a Hurricane).

      Shounen-Ai: Boy-Love, not explicit, deals with emotions and the relationship. (Titles include: Eerie Queerie and Demon Diary)

      Shojo-Ai: Girl-Love, just like Shounen-ai only with girls. I haven’t been able to get into it like I was able to with Shounen-Ai and yaoi so I don’t have any titles.

      Yuri: Girl/Girl, again, same as yaoi but with girls. And I can’t get into that genre either.

      So… there’s a quick definition for those who don’t know what those are…. And maybe you didn’t want to know. But w/e.

      Thanks again for your support ^^

      Sep 26, 2009 at 2:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @Marina:

      As do millions of straight men too who far outnumber gay men per capita as well as the soaring rape statistics, the incidence of male on male rape is extremely low comparatively. What do you say about that? Its ok because they’re straight?

      In regard to the roman cult molestation scandal, there were many straight clerics “fucking” girls, but of course, the straight media plays it down for obvious reasons but reinforces the gay component instead, veiled homophobia at best. Look at government statistics on pedophilia….overwhelmingly committed by straights.

      To the religious cult followers, those two infamous straights Adam & Eve, the so called first parents of the human race according to believers in the scriptures must have committed incest numerous times to have populated the planet. How about that!

      Oh and while I’m on the subject of the religious inclined, how about those ten commandments that are the basis of judaism and christianity…there is not one that mentions let alone condemns “homosexuality”. I wonder why? Sort of supercedes that questionable Leviticus mantra, all written down by imperfect, unsophisticated men.

      Sep 27, 2009 at 6:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert, NYC
      Robert, NYC

      @schlukitz:

      Faith is for the lazy thinkers, the same people who propelled Bush 43, they follow but can’t lead on anything. They’d rather be led like sheep than sit down and try to figure out things on their own. Its a form of addiction and co-dependence which is what most cults are all about anyway. Its learned behavior, nobody comes into this world thinking that way and a chosen “life style” at that.

      Sep 27, 2009 at 9:30 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • onefish
      onefish

      @David

      Some words that I think are relevant to what is going on in these discussions, by George Macdonald.

      “Once for all I will ease my soul regarding the horrid phantasm [a theological error he is discussing]. I have passed through no change of opinion concerning it since first I began to write or speak; but I have written little and spoken less about it, because I would preach no mere negation. My work was not to destroy the false, except as it came in the way of building the true. Therefore I sought to speak but what I believed, saying little concerning what I did not believe; trusting, as now I trust, in the true to cast out the false, and shunning dispute. Neither will I now enter any theological lists to be the champion for or against mere doctrine. I have no desire to change the opinion of man or woman. Let everyone for me hold what he pleases. But I would do my utmost to disable such as think correct opinion essential to salvation from laying any other burden on the shoulders of true men and women than the yoke of their Master; and such burden, if already oppressing any, I would gladly lift. Let the Lord himself teach them, I say. A man who has not the mind of Christ—and no man has the mind of Christ except him who makes it his business to obey him—cannot have correct opinions concerning him; neither, if he could, would they be of any value to him: he would be nothing the better, he would be the worse for having them. Our business is not to think correctly, but to live truly; then first will there be a possibility of our thinking correctly.”

      Sep 27, 2009 at 9:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • tinkerbell
      tinkerbell

      OMG, who cares what these christian nuts think? I just wish their “Rapture” would happen and take them to their promised land. Oh, yeah, I SO want one of the high-brow SUVS that have the bumper sticker that says something in the effect of: In case of Rapture, this car un-manned” Honey, just leave the keys and take the hatred and bigotry. The sane people will do just fine.

      Sep 27, 2009 at 11:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • declanto
      declanto

      @David: OMG Cassandra, is that you?

      Jan 25, 2012 at 7:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MikeE
      MikeE

      The United Church of Canada explicitly rejects the idea that homosexuality is a “sin”.

      My husband and I were married in a UCC church.

      But then, the anti-christians, regardless of what anyone says, will be “anti”. there are times it would seem they are just as irrational as the christian nutjobs.

      Jan 25, 2012 at 10:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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