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CHRISTIAN QUESTIONS

How Could Anyone Be Gay And Catholic? Andrew Sullivan Knows!

The Church’s whole “abomination” shtick has set a lot of LGBTs against Christianity. But when you’re a gay Christian it’s a double whammy—with people from both communities hating on you.

So how does a gay Catholic like Andrew Sullivan reconcile the seeming contradiction? With equal parts condemnation and vagueness.

He basically says that he’s openly gay because his Catholic belief teaches him to tell the truth about his homosexuality, something he calls an “involuntary characteristic.” He adds that the Catholic church’s “myopic” fixation on non-procreative gay sex has been perpetuated by emotionally crippled gay men within the church.

OK Andrew, but why do you remain Catholic?

Sullivan believes in the church’s “revelation of the truth about everything” and says that the church can be true on some core levels and yet mistaken, misplaced, and misguided in other areas.

Umm… you would Mr. Sullivan kindly please explain the church’s “revelation of the truth about everything”? At least slim it down with an example or two, brother.

At the very best, he says we can hope that the Catholic church might reverse its position on homosexual “abominations” sometime in the next 989 years. Sounds about right.

After all, it took the Catholic church 367 years to admit that the Earth really does revolve around the sun (and not vice-versa). Even the current pope Papa Ratzi thinks the Church did right by denouncing Galileo’s little theory. Sigh…

By:           Daniel Villarreal
On:           Oct 24, 2011
Tagged: ,
  • 59 Comments
    • Marcus
      Marcus

      How can anyone be (gay and) Catholic? It’s easy: Brainwashing.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 4:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ewoks R Us
      Ewoks R Us

      I came to the realization a few months ago that my last 6 crushes were all Catholic…half were straight too so that doesn’t help. The other half were closeted (and I’m only out to a few friend groups so can’t claim to be much more out) to the point that a relationship would never have a chance to form since they were simply to difficult to approach about it. Now I’ve basically resigned myself to being attracted to unattainable hot Catholics…which means no boyfriend for now. :/

      Oct 24, 2011 at 4:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      …..so when he and his boyfriend choose to get married one day they’ll get married in a Catholic church, right? And the church will allow it and the priests will be happy to perform the service…..right?

      if not, how can he be a gay catholic?

      why not support an institution that actually supports us? I’ve been a member of the united church of canada since i was a child. wholly inclusive and supportive.

      The United Church of Canada – not fucking your children since 1925!

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tigris
      Tigris

      I could have sworn that he had left the church a while back.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      The problem with Sullivan is that he gets fixated on something to the exclusion of all else, he’ll get hung up on something like circumcision because HE is uncircumsized. He will get hung up on bear culture because he decided to grow a beard etc.. Then he writes about them incessently until everybody else wants to shoot themselves. He has done the same with the Church for years. Additionally, when HE believes something he will go into TORTURED verbal gymnastics to attempt to justify his belief in it.

      The basic issue is, he was raised Catholic, doesn’t want to leave the church, so he has to pretend that there is a good reason for him to BE Catholic.

      The problem of saying that the “CHURCH” is neato peachy keen, but it’s just everybody in charge of it and running it that is bad is idiotic.

      It’s like saying, “This cake is good, it’s just all the ingrediants that were spoiled”.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      i hear that, Cam. I’d love to see him justify being a gay catholic when he’s denied a marriage by the catholic church.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • christopher di spirito
      christopher di spirito

      Yes, Jesus died on the cross, was taken to a cave and three days later, he magically came back to life, walked out of said cave and disappeared into the village.

      A chapter of Vulcan mythology sounds more sane and credible than this whopper.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ogre Magi
      Ogre Magi

      Even aside from his christianity I have always considered Andrew Sullivan to be a pompous windbag

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Robert in NYC
      Robert in NYC

      No.3, he already had a civil marriage with his partner in Massachusetts where they live.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      @Robert in NYC: ahhh….. not a religious catholic one?

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • christopher di spirito
      christopher di spirito

      Why is Andrew Sullivan’s opinion(s) relevant?

      I turned on him years ago when ‘The Advocate’ published one of his characteristically verbose pieces where he tried (and failed) to equivocate HIV/AIDS and diabetes.

      Sullivan has full-blown AIDS and is a fan of bareback anal sex, so I suppose he has nothing left to lose which makes him more dangerous than a rattlesnake with a British accent.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WillBFair
      WillBFair

      This is nonsense. He’s out because the church taught him to be honest? Please. And he doesn’t obey church teaching to be celibate why?
      He is a pompous windbag. Don’t even try to count the number of self important Is in this. And ‘I DO think.’ Ugh. It doesn’t get more pompous than that.
      A real answer: the catholic church has a strong history of social justice, service to the poor and oppressed, etc… That’s reason enough for someone who believes in social justice. Either Sillivan does not, or it slipped his mind.
      Also, there are millions of catholics who are one our side, despite the Magisterium’s nut kookery.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • the crustybastard
      the crustybastard

      The ritual cannibalism should be sufficiently off-putting, but the Church’s endemic culture of abuse of women and children really ought to be the end of Catholicism for any sensible person.

      It was for me.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 5:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      It never ceases to amaze me how so many Catholics can act like they have the right to judge and condemn others.When their backyards are the dirtiest of them all to begin with. There have been sooo many people who have been proven to be PEDOPHILES within the catholic organizations and churches.These people are hypocrites and should not be trying to throw stones when they do indeed live in glass houses THEMSELVES.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 6:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      in 2011 there are very few excuses for continuing to support organizations that continue to not merely drag their heels about Equality, but actively work to stall and block it.

      there are plenty of organizations and charities that do all of the same “Good” with NONE of the “bad” that comes along with the RCC.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 6:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      can you imagine what would happen to the Catholic church if they finally took a stance against non-virgins trying to get married in the Church? I mean, SERIOUSLY.

      if the RCC was as adamant about premarital heterosexual sex as they are about gay sex there’d be no catholics left.

      of course “hating the gays” is a great way for many Catholic couples to ignore the fact that their first child was born less than 5 months after their wedding….

      i mean, COME ON.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • WillBFair
      WillBFair

      @Little Kiwi: You’re right. I’m not one, and I’ve never given them a dime. But I’ve always had a soft spot for catholicism because of it’s history of socail justice. There’s not much of it in the world. But I need to re-think that. They also have another history which is not so pretty.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 6:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      Yup. There are charitable organizations and religious/spiritual groups that do “the same good” without the bitter aftertaste of homophobia, sexism, misogyny, hypocrisy, piety and exclusivity.

      we no longer need to “support the lesser of two evils” or “ignore the bad that they do because they also do some good” – dont’ support them. they’l be forced to change their “business model” and indeed message when they realize that what they promote comes at a financial cost to themselves.

      organized religion is a business and operates as one. the RCC will change its tune when it becomes financially necessary for them to change their tune in order to survive.

      in the meantime, thank Goodness for the digital age – we can now research and find Ethical Charities instead.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 6:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DonTheAgnostic
      DonTheAgnostic

      I don’t understand why someone has to rationalize their religious beliefs to a bunch of faceless people on the Internet.

      If you don’t agree with his choice, don’t be Catholic. You don’t have to shove your opinions down his throat just as you wouldn’t want him to do the same.

      Its also telling that whenever the Christian label comes up on these boards, its automatically assumed the person is a hateful bigot who should be bashed. You guys are so reluctant to see any three-dimensionality when it comes to religious people that you just write them off and try to deconstruct something their life has been built around out of spite.

      If they aren’t trying to pass laws or attack you for who you are, why should Christians who mind their own business be condemned for how they live their lives? I know, I know “BECAUSE THEY DO IT TO US.” That’s such an ignorant blanket statement since not all of them do. If people are happy believing their life has a plan and they get something out of Christianity I say let them. The truth is more depressing anyway.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @DonTheAgnostic:

      You are correct.It is indeed not fair to paint everyone with the same brush.Those who use religion and their beliefs however to hate other human beings and try to stomp on their rights as human beings though are not deserving of love nor understanding.Especially if they are not capable of showing that to others to begin with.

      In this world you have to earn respect in order to get it.Therefore if those types of Christians or catholics can not respect us as human beings then why should we respect THEM as human beings? It would be illogical not to mention foolish I for one do not have respect for people who hate me for what I am… especially when they claim to be Christian and they should know that that religion is supposed to be based on LOVE not HATE to begin with.It’s hypocritical in its entirety on their part same with those kinds of Catholics or other religions for that matter.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 6:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Doctor Whom
      Doctor Whom

      The doublethink is strong with this one. I gave up on Catholicism when I realized that an intellectually honest, logically coherent belief system just wasn’t on the menu there.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 6:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      @DonTheAgnostic: or you’re missing the nuances.

      ” If people are happy believing their life has a plan and they get something out of Christianity I say let them”

      The problem is not what people believe for themselves, but the specifics of what they believe and how they are ABOUT IT, and how it (in turn) impacts how they feel about themselves and those who are different.

      i’m a member of the united church of canada. there’s a very good reason why we’re never attacked and criticized by people – we give folks no reason to attack us.

      “If they aren’t trying to pass laws or attack you for who you are, why should Christians who mind their own business be condemned for how they live their lives? ”

      Oh, if only they weren’t. And the Catholics who are Pro-Equality who sit back and let it happen are just as culpable – what you permit you promote. that goes for folks in any denomination.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 6:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DonTheAgnostic
      DonTheAgnostic

      @Little Kiwi:

      “Oh, if only they weren’t.”

      My post was not referring to all Christians. I’m not naive enough to think that no one from the Catholic faith has oppressed us. However you fail to point out how the quiet pro-equality Catholics are directly harming us, which brings me to your other point:

      “What you permit you promote.”

      Would you rather have a bunch of people fighting for causes they are either uninformed or care little about? If anything the silent majority is doing more good for our country by just listening. I don’t understand the need to live a life based around activism and social change. It’s been established that complete equality and peace is not only impossible, its undesirable. We are inevitably always unsatisfied with our current condition and will most likely die unsatisfied with our current condition. That being the case, why not live a life doing the things we enjoy instead of getting angry and people at people who disagree with us and making sacrifices for the cause? We’re all going to die anyway.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 7:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David Ehrenstein
      David Ehrenstein

      @christopher di spirito: That’s what I’ve always felt about Patient Less Than Zero, Mr. di Spirito.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A93mTv802Qo

      But you know what they say about Denial. It’s not just a river in Egpyt.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 7:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @DonTheAgnostic:

      Everyone will die thats a fact of life circle of life and all.

      I don’t understand the need to live a life based around activism and social change. It’s been established that complete equality and peace is not only impossible, its undesirable. We are inevitably always unsatisfied with our current condition and will most likely die unsatisfied with our current condition.

      Sorry but to me that looks like a very pessimistic way of looking at things.How exactly is establishing complete equality and peace impossible let alone undesirable to begin with?

      I would look at it more as proving all the haters wrong that we DID achieve equality and we did achieve peace.Then if that actually happened and these morons could see that it does NOT affect them one bit in anyway whatsoever maybe just maybe they would FINALLY understand that we pose no threat to them their lives their marriages the institution of marriage their children their childs education and so on.We can not have that kind of negative approach to this otherwise you are indeed correct we will NEVER achieve complete equality or peace especially if we give up the ghost and surrender to what the haters want.Our anger btw is what drives us to keep fighting for me it does anyway i’d rather be angry and fight then give up and cry about it too afraid of what will or won’t happen ultimately in the end.Solely my opinion.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 7:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      There is no valid mandate that says gODD and religion have to be together. If one is “emotionally crippled” because of the church then may i suggest the iconic words of their super hero? GET UP AND WALK!!!

      Oct 24, 2011 at 7:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      I don’t think i ever liked anything out of her mouth.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 7:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DonTheAgnostic
      DonTheAgnostic

      @Michael:

      “How exactly is establishing complete equality and peace impossible let alone undesirable to begin with?”

      Because to achieve a truly equal society requires watering our culture down to please everybody. In doing so we’re actually pleasing no one. Take a look at this essay. You may not agree with it, but it better articulates my view.

      http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/000524.php
      “The deeper reason is this. While giving people equal opportunities is impossible, giving everyone, or at least the vast majority of people, a considerable level of opportunity is not impossible. And yet, often in the very name of equality of opportunity, we have created a society many of whose members have far fewer opportunities than they could and ought to have. In the pursuit of a classless society, we are close to having produced a caste society.”

      Oct 24, 2011 at 7:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      @DonTheAgnostic: because you’re an apologist with a defeatest attitude. that’s where we differ.

      you’re saying “things suck and we have to accept it”

      i was raised to work to change the things that need to be changed.

      “That being the case, why not live a life doing the things we enjoy instead of getting angry and people at people who disagree with us and making sacrifices for the cause?”

      My life is amazing. I do what I do for all of those whose lives are less-than-enjoyable due to the culture of bigotry, intolerance, fear and oppression that far too many organized religions contribute to. You are coming from a place of selfish, unthinking delusional privilege.

      I was raised to have empathy for those who don’t have what I have. your attitude is both selfish and lazy.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 7:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael
      Michael

      @DonTheAgnostic:

      Equal is fair to me there is nothing wrong with that.Not to mention I do not understand where you get the idea that we are trying to PLEASE anyone to begin with.I sure as hell am not I was not put on this earth to please people or please what they want of me or they want me to be or how they want me to live. This is about being treated equally under the law this is about equal rights this is about tolerance acceptance compassion and common human decency.If these people have a problem with the way people like me live then I could truly not care less what THEY think to begin with.They want to raise their kids in a plastic bubble afraid of EVERYTHING including of homosexuality then thats their fuckup thats their issue.Their issues are not mine and I will not sit back and let them think they can make their issues MINE.

      You can’t keep making excuses or rationalizations as to what will happen if we gain momentum in this country and actually achieve true equality.By making rationalizations or letting your fears get the best to you about this… the bigots have already won its the truth. We can’t be afraid of what’s to come in life there are plenty of people out there who DO love and care about us as well as our rights as human beings. Eventually the haters will be looked back on in shame as they deserve.Our supporters though our families and our friends however will always be remembered as the people who made a difference and will be looked back on with love and appreciation.

      My father died in July he was a wonderful man he went to war in the Vietnam War with gay soldiers it never phased him a bit.We talked about gay rights and he hoped that it would happen eventually as well he loved me for who I was and what I was.It didnt phase his love for me as his son at all. The haters will always be a part of this world sadly but the decent ones will always outweigh and outnumber the ones who live and breathe hate in this world. This may not make sense to you but it does make sense to me.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 7:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DonTheAgnostic
      DonTheAgnostic

      @Little Kiwi:

      “You are coming from a place of selfish, unthinking delusional privilege.”
      Oh but look, my life is amazing too. There’s a difference between whats just and whats fair and you seem to have them confused. I don’t have to design my life around coming off as authentic or sympathetic or politically direct because it’s MY LIFE.

      And because its my life, I do the things that I want to do. Thats my right. It may be a right that comes from privilege, but its a right nonetheless. It makes me happy. The aspiration of anyone’s life should be to be happy. If changing the world makes you happy thats fine. But at least I’m living for myself, since it is indeed, MY LIFE.

      When you’re dead, no one will be left to judge you for your morals except the society that made them up. You seem to be overtly concerned with those morals, meaning you live your life primarily for other people. That’s noble, but it won’t mean shit when you’re dead.

      Oh, and great to know “you were raised” to change the things that need to be changed. That makes your argument so much more compelling. Because obviously in order to sound intelligent you have to pretentiously belittle my parents. Good on you.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 8:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • michael
      michael

      How? Well that’s easy… The original text of the Bible does not condemn homosexuality and anyone who has ever read the Gospel of John can easily deduce if Jesus was romantically involved with someone it would have been John. There’s a huge difference in following what Christ taught and what the Vatican spews out today.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 8:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Little Kiwi
      Little Kiwi

      you’re right, Don. You utterly have the right to live a selfish, self-serving and lazy existence wherein you ignore the pleas of those in need and shruf your shoulders and say “hey, sorry. that’s life”

      I’m just relieved that there are so many other people in the world with more empathy, compassion, energy and drive than you.

      yes. it is your life. and you’re completely allowed to live it each day without thinking or caring about how others live, and what role you could possibly play in making their lives better. enjoy your vanilla cocoon. your parents did wonders raising such a self-absorbed brat.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 8:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kev C
      Kev C

      Everything about Catholicism is to promote procreation. The concept of Sin is, in fact, a measure of procreation. Anything that produces life is not a sin.

      Birth control = sin
      Abortion = sin
      Rape that produces a baby = not a sin
      Incest that produces a baby = not a sin

      By this definition, homosexuality is a sin. This is a core belief of christians and especially catholics. It’s the whole point of the religion. This will not change. The Church will NEVER accept or approve of homosexuality.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 8:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kurt
      Kurt

      I get where Sullivan is coming from. You believe in the Holy Trinity, the Nicene Creed, the 7 sacraments, the Real Presence, prayers to the saints, purgatory, oh, and throw in “Rerum Novarum” just for fun. Don’t argue with me over those things, but if you did believe in them, then 1) where else would you go? and; 2) doesn’t the sex stuff seem pretty insignificant?

      Oct 24, 2011 at 9:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • pedro
      pedro

      Yes, the Catholic church has an unfortunate history and major modern flaws (like every other manmade institution, but I will remain a Catholic until the day I die. As someone who was raised in a strict Catholic household, went to Catholic school and Cathecism, I can acknowledge the bad and still appreciate the good of the church. I was very disappointed when Ratzinger was elected Pope, but the church is more than one man. Most Catholics are good and decent people, including every single member of my own family. I was a choir boy and not once was I ever fondled by a priest, though father Perez was one hot mofo, and if he had decided to molest me, I probably would’ve given in quite easily, what a waste of a beautiful man… As for Andrew Sullivan, I have read his blog on and off, and he’s very freaking annoying: his obsession with beards and his Obamacrush just grate on my nerves.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 9:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DonTheAgnostic
      DonTheAgnostic

      @Little Kiwi: No kiwi, I completely understand. Apparently it makes more sense to live being guilty and to reject privilege than to embrace it while I have it. And I should also forget that the people I’m fighting are just entitled to their viewpoint as myself and believe just as strongly that what they are doing is the right thing. Apparently it also makes sense to present myself as a self righteous, arrogant and naive radical who hypocritically believes that change comes from yelling, accusing and muckraking people who could potentially side with their cause. Because apparently social activism is just a fancy word for throwing a tantrum until your parents give you what you want. You don’t want peace or equality. You just want the laws to reflect your ideals. You want to feel edgy for being progressive. You must realize then that everyone’s ideal is different, different than yours even. *GASP* You might enjoy the drama in your life that comes from confronting people on things you don’t agree with. I personally hate this. I don’t like having bad blood with people who don’t even know me over things I genuinely don’t care about, which is why I sit comfortably in my home, trying to avoid getting angry when I see the manifestos of people like you who try to tell me how to live MY LIFE.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 9:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aimee Sims
      Aimee Sims

      @Marcus: @Marcus:
      If you really want to investigate the issue you should check out RAW: A Poetic Journey (Finding a Way from Conflict to Revelation) it’s an anthology of poetry and personal stories from LGBT Christians of all denominations and allies. The issue is a lot more complex than anyone who hasn’t walked a mile in these shoes can conceive of.

      Oct 24, 2011 at 9:55 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Aimee M. sims
      Aimee M. sims

      @Marcus: If you really want to explore the issue, you should check out RAW: A Poetic Journey – Finding a Way from Conflict to Revelation It’s a collection of poetry and personal stories from LGBT Christians of all denominations – and straight allies. The whole issue is a lot more complex than anyone who hasn’t walked a mile in these shoes can conceive of …

      Oct 24, 2011 at 10:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kurt
      Kurt [Different person #1 using similar name]

      Andrew “Milky Loads” Sullivan is a total hypocrite, barebacker, and doesn’t care which strains of HIV he gets or which ones he gives to people.

      Yes you can be GLBT and Christian and even a GLBT person and Catholic.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 12:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Dave
      Dave

      Like anyone else, Andrew Sullivan can believe what he likes religion-wise. If it comforts him, more power to him. But for anyone other than Sullivan, listening for rational sense in the above video is a waste of time; usually you only hear that kind of bewildering, meandering, meaningless horseshit from politicians who get asked a direct question they don’t want to answer.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 2:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • IUSA
      IUSA

      “Emotionally crippled gay men who run the church” is a very bold statement.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 4:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      Andrew says a lot of interesting things but why oh why did he grow that beard and start wearing those flannel shirts? He looks like a stereotype from a bar on bear night.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 7:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark
      Mark

      Better to have gays in the church to reform it than to have them leave or booted out.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 8:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Scott in NYC
      Scott in NYC

      Sometimes I agree with Sullivan, sometimes I don’t (he seems to think Obama walks on water). What I NEVER agree with and will never understand is the issue so many gay commentators on this site take with anyone who breaks from liberal orthodoxy. They seem to hold free thought and expression in high regard but then despise anyone who actually practices it to espouse any opinions they don’t agree with. Pathetic.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 9:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Timmmeeeyyy!!!`
      Timmmeeeyyy!!!`

      First, Sullivan’s comment about “motionally crippled gay men who run the church” is astonishing. So it’s gays who are to blame for homophobia in the catholic church? Stockholm syndrome indeed.

      The catholic church’s doctrin is not just academic, it has real consequences. The catholic church only recently softened it’s anti-condom stance despite the worldwide spread of AIDS not only in the gay community, but in communities throughout the world where up to 50% of adult men, gay and straight, are infected with the virus.The church’s fight against birth control in poor nations keeps women impoverished as they struggle to raise babies they cannot afford, and denies women the right to responsibly and freely decide the number, spacing and timing of their children.

      The church’s “love the sinner, hate the sin” stance sends a very clear message to the many lesbian/gay kids and adults sitting in the pews each and every Sunday. I know because I was one of them. In the end, there is a lot more hating the sin and much less loving the sinner.

      Of course it’s a great message to get young gay men to join the seminary. Young gays think, “if I can devote my life to God, this thing will go away. Perhaps if I’m celibate, my dark shame will be hidden.” Unfortunately the feelings don’t go away, and as psychologists say, what you resist will persist. The repressed feelings are expressed in destructive behaviors such as alcoholism, depression, and furtive, guilty and risky sexual encounters.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 10:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • the crustybastard
      the crustybastard

      @Mark:

      If the existence of gays in the RCC made reform possible, reform would have happened by now. Yet the RCC is becoming increasingly socially conservative, not less.

      This is possible because only 114 Catholics have any say at all in matters of church policy or governance. And those 114 are a remarkably homogenous group — 100% male and 100% elderly. The cardinals are also overwhelmingly white, European and very, very conservative.

      That’s because ideologically conservative popes select ideologically conservative cardinals. Every cardinal currently eligible to vote was appointed either by JPII or Ratzinger, so Ratzinger’s successor is likely to be at least as conservative as him.

      So don’t delude yourself with this “change from within” nonsense. The RCC is purposefully organized as an absolute authoritarian monarchy to prevent ideas from percolating to the top.

      Well-intentioned Catholics can no more instigate the peaceful liberalization of the Vatican by going to church than well-intentioned American citizens can instigate the peaceful liberalization of North Korea by going to the library.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 10:43 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • iDavid
      iDavid

      Now if the forefathers had verbally stated in the Constitution, “discrimination is illegal for all Americans punishable by law regardless of the subject matter, religion not excluded “, we’d be hell’s happy kittens it seems.

      @little Kiwi….when you get the flame thrower out it really diminishes your effectiveness as a good orator. You lose lots of points w alot of people and you don’t win the debate, unless winning to you equals maming people, in which case, you’re toast w the rationals. I like many of your points and hope to see you stick to rational comment rather than back alley name calling. You’re far too intelligence for that and seems quite beneath you.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 11:17 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • iDavid
      iDavid

      PS Wait a min, the barbaric Amers calling out the proper Canucks on civility? Wow, the world REALLY IS changing.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 11:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bryan
      Bryan

      The majority of RELIGION as a whole when you consider the world including places like Africa, is a hateful, judgmental, hypocritical organization, I don’t know why anyone would want to be part of it tbh.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 3:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Max
      Max

      @iDavid-Kiwi is one of this site’s trolls and he’s no better than the other well known one Jason. They are both not as intelligent as they’d like to think that they are, and neither of them actually post anything of merit at all and just flame people who don’t agree with them 1,000%. Jason’s on the right politically and Kiwi is on the far left and they’re both extremists and trolls. Just read their previous posts such as where Jason goes off on bisexual women and Kiwi claims that if you’re not sexually attracted to all races of people, and actually have a preference in race(s) who you do date and get involved with sexually that you’re somehow “racist” if you happen to be white; but if you are black, Asian, or a “person of color” who does this it’s somehow not racism.

      Oct 25, 2011 at 4:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • stuart
      stuart

      fat fuck quisling, suck the pope’s dick and die

      Oct 25, 2011 at 10:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • g.k. bridges-tollison
      g.k. bridges-tollison

      The ignorance of religious and theological history rampant in many of these posts is astounding. Sullivan’s words are straight forward, theologically sound, and even eloquent. I experience the numinous on a daily basis, and pity those who miss out on it. It’s one of the better parts of being human. Open a book someday; the Church is not religion.

      Oct 26, 2011 at 2:42 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      How could anyone be gay and Catholic?

      I’d love to know the answer to this question. Throw in Mormon, Baptist, Methodist, Southern Baptist…hell, thrown in almost all of Christianity. Islam, too. Hell, the whole Big Three.

      I find it highly disturbing that so many people subscribe to faiths that have done nothing but condemn us. The Bible says to stone homosexuals to death. That is enough for me to know its bullshit. God loves me, and he made me this way, but I should be stoned to death? Fuck that. I guess there are nutters in all demographics, including queers.

      Oct 26, 2011 at 2:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • smartcatch
      smartcatch

      Though there is a forest, there are many more individual trees. Once again, the Church is not religion, but it is a useful conduit to the spiritual for millions; no one can coerce a true individual into signing on for every “belief” on the list. The texts and the histories are there, difficult and time consuming, but extant. They are not discourses on exclusion and hate, but a long and difficult attempt at coming together. The history of the Church can be horrifying both in, but especially out, of context. Of course (full disclosure) this is pretty easy for me to say–I’m Episcopalian. (smile).

      Oct 26, 2011 at 2:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Shannon1981
      Shannon1981

      Brainwashed people ignore facts. They ignore the bigotry against themselves in order to follow an ancient, unproven belief system. I mean this for the entire family of Abrahamic faiths, minus the gay affirming denominations. It makes no sense. But brainwashed people rarely make sense, so no surprise there. The Catholic Church is a child- raping religious cult, nevermind the bullshit coming from the rest of xtianity. It’s insane. The pope, his second in command, and every priest in that disgusting, corrupt institution who is found to have had anything to do with the molestation and the cover ups and the rest need to go to jail, and their followers disbanded.

      Oct 26, 2011 at 3:05 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Akimoggie
      Akimoggie

      I’m gay and Catholic.

      The organization can be corrupt as any other organization, and the influence of tradition over rational thought hinders progress like nothing else, but God is real to me and I choose to worship Him the way I feel I should go about it. It is a personal relationship that no man on earth, atheist or Pope, government or clergy, has the right to interfere with. Anyone who criticizes anyone else’s choice to worship (or not to) is nothing more than a small-minded, ignorant fool.

      Oct 26, 2011 at 4:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • iDavid
      iDavid

      Your membership is not revoked nor are you disallowed entry for being gay. So yes anyone can be gay and join the Catholic club. But technically you can’t “be” a Catholic, you can only “be” a soul. I know, another discussion. With half the clergy being gay, why in the world would they not want gay people? Shhhh, it’s a DL thing donchyaknow.

      Oct 26, 2011 at 5:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ogre Magi
      Ogre Magi

      This cartoon makes a good point
      http://www.atheistcartoons.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/thisidontbelieve.jpg

      Oct 26, 2011 at 9:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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