There is a mainstreaming, and I think that’s magnificent. Certainly in Britain and in America, there are all sorts of gay stories cropping up. We will always complain that there could be more — it’s natural for a minority to complain that we’re not visible enough. At the same time, we’re getting more and more niche broadcasting, which demands shows for gay people, for middle-aged white women, for ethnic communities. We’re at a funny time of transition where no one’s quite sure if we’re searching for a mass audience or for niche audiences. In the end, though, people like a good story, and if you’re exploring characters that haven’t been explored in those ways before, then people will like that.”
— Russell T. Davies, creator of Queer As Folk, Banana and Cucumber, in an interview with Slate
Cam
In many cases TV execs want to get us as an audience, but they still treat us like we’re “Icky”.
Modern Family was a good example. They had a gay couple, but you never ever saw them in anything resembling an embrace, or anything affectionate. In fact, until recently they were written as if they hated each other, and every episode was some new things that one of them was angry about.
The other couples on the show, showed affection, but when it was pointed out that the gay couple didn’t, the first thing one of the actors said was “You are lucky they even have a gay couple on the show”.
So there is a weird mix of visibility, but an unwillingness to show them as anything approaching real.
(And frankly that applies to “Looking” as well, they were too desperate to show a gritty reality that they seemed to go back to the 70’s for some of their cliche’s.)
The New Normal tried to show affection, but they cancelled it. So, who knows.
enlightenone
“…and if you’re exploring characters that haven’t been explored in those ways before, then people will like that.”
Sadly, a HBO show that missed the boat or a boat that never left the harbor! Again, if its target audience was for 18 – 25 year old’s it would have been fine and in the FOX (network TV) lineup, cutting out the behaviors the characters themselves couldn’t handle. Not a wasted spot in the HBO lineup!
MarionPaige
Davies claims that he personally had / has a phobia about anal sex. Davies has the main character in Cucumber have the same phobia (the character spends 9 years in a relationship with a Black Man and they never have penetrative sex). One way to look at this character in Cucumber is his phobia is a reflection of Davies’ personal experiences. However, it can also be seen as making the character this sanitized, mainstream acceptable gay by him only wanking off and doing b/j’s.
YOU WOULD THINK that some producer / tv creator who has had major success with a gay tv show would PICK A FORUM in which he has more control and creative leeway (like a web series or DVDs). The thing about going so-called “mainstream” is that if you pick THEIR FORUM then you have to play by their roles.
NG22
Many people hail Russell’s work and criticize “Looking,” but Davies is a “Looking” fan. He also called those who didn’t get “Looking” dumb. Here’s his quote to the BBC about the HBO series:
“I loved Looking. It was a subtle piece of work, and I think, frankly, now that it’s over I can just be blunt and say that went over people’s heads. And if you didn’t get it, you’re a bit dumb. Because it was really subtle, really beautiful, really cleverly written, and seriously, I would suggest that if you didn’t get it, take a deep breath, go back and watch it again.
“You know, if you’re looking for cliffhangers and great big chase scenes and explosions, you’re not going to get it. It’s a story in which if someone chooses to have mac & cheese instead of a salad, they’ve just made a very big decision in their lives.”
Cam
@NG22: said… ““I loved Looking. It was a subtle piece of work, and I think, frankly, now that it’s over I can just be blunt and say that went over people’s heads. And if you didn’t get it, you’re a bit dumb.”
________________________
That is the same Hollywood B.S. that people always try to pull. “Oh, you didn’t like it because it went over your head”.
No it didn’t, there was no character development first season, there was no focus on the relationships between them, the characters were drawn overly broad and if anybody mentions sublety and “Looking” in the same sentence, then they need to look up the definition.
Looking’s characters and plotlines were often juvenile, and cliched. Groff’s character was played like a child, Augustin was written like a cartoon villain, and then changed into a cardboard saint. Dom was non existent, Doris was over the top first season, and finally came into her own in the last few episodes.
But I suppose it’s far easier to claim that anybody who doesn’t like what you like is stupid rather than actually creating something that works.
MarionPaige
What did Davies think of Parting Glances? Because there ain’t a thang about Looking that Parting Glances didn’t do first, and in the 80’s.
Seriously, I think most of the people praising Looking and that Weekend movie are probably not old enough to have had the experience of seeing Parting Glances (in its time).
Paco
@NG22: “…It’s a story in which if someone chooses to have mac & cheese instead of a salad, they’ve just made a very big decision in their lives.”
Which is why it failed to connect with enough people to keep the show going.
Cam
@MarionPaige:
That movie is available on Netflix I think, and we often disagree, but that movie was great, and definitely played “Realistic” far better than “Looking”.
It was also fun to see, because I don’t think anybody ever knew that Steve Buscemi was actually young once.
broadshoulder
Cucumber got massive ratings on C4. It was a hit with a middleaged man living with youngsters and although I am a Doctor Who fan, I~ have to agree with the use of gay characters on ~British TV. They are so regularly used and although there are some stereotypes ie Sean from Coronation Street – we also have good role models ie Todd Grimshaw and Aaron Livesey.
Where we fall down are the gays who cater for the straight female audience – terrible stereotypes like Gok Wan. Sort those out, and everyone will be happy…
MarionPaige
The actor who plays the main character in Cucumber played the lecherous boss of one of George The Werewolf’s girlfriends in Being Human. He in no way shape or form comes across as a gay character – at least not by US standards. One “problem” with UK TV is that it continuous recycles this same handful of actors. I doubt that many in the UK see the main character of Cucumber as a gay man.
The first episode of Cucumber is almost like a recreation of the incident the famous gay civil rights case Lawrence vs Texas is based on. Another episode plays like a variation of “Looking For Mr. Goodbar” – played out over several very boring episodes.
Except for a wild couple of opening episodes AND THE FACT THAT GAY PORNSTAR JP DUBOIS HAS A CAMEO IN EPISODE THREE, Cucumber is pretty boring.
http://www.bitchless.net/index.php?showtopic=106362
broadshoulder
@MarionPaige: I doubt that many in the UK see the main character of Cucumber as a gay man.
Since we know his history of going through the nineties, we very much see the bloke as gay.
The first episode of Cucumber is almost like a recreation of the incident the famous gay civil rights case Lawrence vs Texas is based on. Another episode plays like a variation of “Looking For Mr. Goodbar” – played out over several very boring episodes.
What the fuck is this? Looking for Mr Goodbar? jesus Wept? Yeah,
i am sure Russell Davis was thinking of this when he wrote it? (rolls eyes)
Masc Pride
Gay shows will always be for niche audiences. Aside from gays and hags, no one’s interested. “Looking” was a perfect example of how a gay show couldn’t even secure a gay audience despite TONS of promo and HBO giving it every chance they could. Trying to cater to a mass audience shouldn’t even be on the table. I haven’t seen the fruit/vegetable show, but I’d imagine gay shows probably do much better on gay channels like Logo.
Masc Pride
Homosexuality isn’t a culture. “How Has The Mainstreaming Of Gay PEOPLE Affected Our Queer TV Shows?”
MarionPaige
@broadshoulder: “What the fuck is this? Looking for Mr Goodbar?”
Looking For Mr. Goodbar is a famous American movie about a woman looking for love who hooks up with a “somewhat unstable person who is a bit closeted (or unaccepting of his homosexuality)” . Of particular note (as I recall) is how the woman is shown slowly dying while a light (which I assume is meant to indicate her life) is slowly flashing on and off. It is hard (at least for me) not to think of Goodbar with the spoiler death scene in Cucumber.
I’m surprised that more writers have NOT noted the similarities between the first episode of Cucumber and the details of the Lawrence vs Texas incident. Do you get American news in the UK?
MarionPaige
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf6_9DMJQ_A
jason smeds
Male homosexuality is NOT a minority. As a feeling, it exists in nearly all men, latent or otherwise. The gay identity might be a minority but male homosexuality certainly isn’t.