So, I didn’t have my skull cracked but they cracked my son’s!!, they missed hitting my husband but busted our back sliding glass doors with the bullets. and my son’s assault not only made local and state news but national news. My son’s assault was during school with the school taking no action, we got OCR to finally investigate under a title lX complaint. had to go to DC to convince DOE/OCR that title lX does not exclude male students nor lgbt students from sexual harassment. They found the AR school district in violation (a first for lgbt students) of our son’s rights, including 14th amendment rights. Lambda legal came to our aide when we could’t even get a local lawyer to help. Huckabee knew all of this. He MUST be exposed as an outright liar and this is the first time I ever heard him to say such.

I had to vent and how can one get info to the view so they will understand this “cutsie” is a bigot and lies, as one who was raised southern baptist and remains a Christian, I feel this man should be exposed. What an idiot and did anyone on the view contest his lies??

If, indeed, we have a purpose in life, it would be to serve as a mirror for others to see what they dislike most in themselves. – Werner H. Erhard

And so the conversation comes full circle. Everyone bears “false witness”, so let’s not fool ourselves. I believe there are no good or bad people, only good or bad choices, and consequences that follow. The consequences which result in destructive conversation is the kind of interaction I am trying to avoid, the kind we should ALL avoid if we are to move forward. Your choice, as well as mine, was to respond with hatred. Whether one believes in God or not, self-serving attitudes & agendas only serve the self, not the greater good of all involved. There is no need to insult one’s beliefs in order to stand up for a common cause, particularly if one party is unaware of the common good towards unity (i.e. religious right). I don’t see my exchange with you as being devoid of fault, but that is MY personal battle to conquer corruption within myself. You can embrace the corrupt dialogue and feed off of it if you desire, that’s your prerogative. I am not being condescending when I say that. Sure, I can be immature at times just like eveyone else…I am still growing as a whole person, mentally, physically, spiritually… but my actions are of one who desires to converge with a diversity of minds who disagree, whether I like the interaction or not. It only stimulates the process and cleanses me more thoroughly to achieve unity. And I will beat that horse of inclusion into the ground until the day I die. My faith dictates that, and that’s ONE of the many ways it differentiates itself from the religiosity of others. I suppose the nasty traits one exhibits are most detested when recognized in others, huh? If the mantra of 2008 was “Change”, then MY belief is that the way to execute that is through community, accountability and mutual respect. THIS is what I try to illustrate in this fight for equality…and my snarkasm, I suppose, will always be my Achilles heel (or in my case, Achilles’ Hell).

peace & blessings

I accept your apology and I extend mine to you in return. It was not my purpose to offend you either.

I try to make it a policy, as I know my dear friend Glen does, to attack the idea and not the person. Sometimes, the line gets a little fuzzy and the temptation to overstep it presents itself.
I guess we are all subject to the frailties of the human species no matter what our belief system.

I have no desire whatsoever to hit your other cheek. That would accomplish nothing other than fueling the fire which we are both attempting to extinguish.

Contrary to what you might believe about me, I am not a war hawk and would like to believe that somehow, we can all learn to get along on this planet and not blow ourselves to smithereens in a mad effort to prove our individual ideas and isms.If I did believe in a higher being, that is certainly something I would be praying for.

Thank you for your best wishes for this Thanksgiving season. I have much to be thankful for.

I extend mine in return to you and yours.

Tell me about it! What a relief! No more baggage! By the way, since it is Thanksgiving, I want to thank you for your input, despite my initial reactions to your patronage and hostility. They have only served to reinforce my understanding of the heart of man, and has strengthened my belief in God to heal & guide the way I think and live my own life. If I have offended you, I am sorry. You have every right to be as bitter & resentful as you are.

I’m turning the other cheek right now. Go ahead. Hit it.
I know you want to.

PS – No, I am NOT into S & M.
LOL

My sister-in-law, Lorraine, has us all hold hands at the table when the the entire family gathers for a holiday dinner while she says a blessing. It makes me feel good too, despite the fact that I am also not a believer.

I would never reject the well wishes of anyone’s faith. After all, they were offered out of love and to not accept them in that spirit and be appreciative of those well wishes, would make me a miscreant.

I don’t believe that I have made it any worse with my presence.

You also wrote: “I’m not arguing with you anymore.”

Plop, plop. Fizz, fizz. What a relief it is!

Please spare me the sermon of your own making. YOU trying to teach me a biblical lesson about bearing false witness, or Leviticus, or any other religious doctrine is a FARCE. Your archaic references and arguments are proof enough to me that you DON’T have a grasp on my understanding of all these principles. I never charged your decision to love another man as “sinful”, so I have no idea where you might be dragging that old tired argument from. I have moved past THAT debate with the church, because I have worked through it all with reason backed by scripture. My only regret is that I reacted to your intolerance with similar venom. I am fully aware of everything that I said when I responded to your comments, and it’s disgusting. This is why I abhor self-serving agendas, whether they be from the likes of you or the Vatican…they only breed contempt. I do not claim to be perfect, because then I wouldn’t need a Saviour. Perhaps that’s why you dont have one, I don’t really know.

I’m not arguing with you anymore. You have already made up your mind that ANYONE who has faith is a piece of shit, and that you cannot have a decent conversation with me without resorting to condescension and insults. You are more interested in solidifying your imagined “rightness”, rather than coming to affable solutions. I have no time for it. It’s not that I think I am on any moral “high ground”, but that you are simply out to validate your own agenda. You can believe what you want to believe, but I will only use my faith to engage in profitable dialogue, not slander. I know what I believe; it has taken me a lifetime to come to sound conclusions, and I don’t need to justify it to you or anyone else who feels like they need to tear me apart because of some misdirected anger towards the church. That’s your own baggage, and I refuse to carry it. I have my own issues with the church, but I don’t let THEIR myopia direct my own vision. Go, make the world a better place, if you can.

Please allow me to stay off topic a bit here to a tangent that has been discussed.

In my prior post, I mentioned that I am not a believer, but I do feel that I’m tolerant of other views – at least I try to be.

My wife is an expert at putting herself in another person’s shoes. When you do that, it frequently makes you a better person.

I’m not trying to point out that I’m a good person, I just want to show you how I felt on a specific occasion. Yesterday, we went to a friend’s home for dinner. Three couples, good friends. Our host is Catholic. He went to Catholic schools for many years. Both parents were born in Italy. When we sat down to eat, he said a blessing and he did a great job.

How did I feel about that? Great.

“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 – 1950) “

‘Nuther thread. ‘nuther dialogue. lol

Sorry ’bout that.

Oops…another hateful comment just slipped from between. I really must try to be more careful about that in the future.

The last time I heard, America was still a Democracy and that entitles me to the freedom of speech that Kevin seems unwilling to grant to me, while demanding that I respect his opinions and religious beliefs.

I do not deny his his basic right to state his feeling, thoughts and convictions on a public site. In fact, I fiercely defend his right to do so.

What is readily apparent to me and which I find quite interesting, if not downright puzzling, is the fact that the real haters, and that includes the likes of Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Fred Phelps, the Pope and people like Mr. Fuckabee, who are, IMHO, the first to accuse the very people they openly display their vitriol and hatred for, of being hateful. They toss the verbal Molotov cocktails first, and then get all self-righteous and upset when we pick them up and toss them back from whence they came.

At the very least, it is deceitful and dishonest. At the very worst, it is downright devious and disgusting. They preach living by bible and the Ten Commandments, yet have absolutely no problem with breaking the ninth commandment, time and time again.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”

Given the hypocrisy, unjustified accusations and outright lies that are continually spouted by people like this, there must be some ambiguity as to the full meaning of this simply stated commandment.

For purposes of clarification, for those who do not understand simple English, it means, “You shall not lie”. Furthermore, it should be noted that most religions deem it a sin to lie.

Ummm…would someone like to explain to me how it ok to overlook one sin, namely lying, while pointing the finger of guilt at me for simply wishing to share my love with the person of my choosing and labeling that as a sin? What is the fine distinction here that I obviously fail to note and understand? Is the religious right trying to tell us that it is ok to pick and choose which of the ten commandments they will obey, just as they do with their bible?

And speaking of bibles, please, do not drag out the tired Leviticus argument again. Give me a, valid, logical and well thought-out reason that I can sink my teeth into besides the old “God hates queers” argument, why I should NOT be entitled to my rights as a taxpaying, law-abiding American Citizen. Surely, these people must have something in their arsenal of weaponry against queers that super cedes that threadbare argument?

In conclusion, I am NOT the cretin here, as I have been unjustly accused of being by Kevin. “Shooting the messenger as the bearer of bad news” is not the route to go. The real cretins are the likes of people I nailed in the foregoing.

As my very very good friend, Glen, said so well, we would most likely, make more progress by attacking discrimination rather than each other.

That said, Kevin can go to his church, and I will go to mine.

Pax.

Well, I certainly can’t argue with that logic, can I now? Godwin’s law has just been invoked.

As to your claims of hatred on my behalf, I hate no one. I leave that to the Fundies, the Religious Rabble Rousers and the Mormons. They have had much more practice at it and do it so much better than I ever could. Oh my. Silly me. I guess I was being hateful by even say that, wasn’t I?

Enjoy your “dump” while you pray for me. I truly hope it will leave you feeling somewhat better.

If it’s all the same to you, I’ll just “brush” that comment off.

Thank you for that….this is the kind of balanced response I would expect from a forum like this, and is relevant to the point I have been trying to make. Should I have initially responded to Mr. Mueller’s condescension with hatred…or with love? Whether one be atheist or religious, gay or straight, it is the spirit of divisiveness which tears us apart. There is always a better choice to be made.

With regards to my faith, it is a continuing & lifelong lesson. It teaches me to forgive him for his hatred and move on. Can he do the same?

Say what you will, but the truth lies in the actions of the perpetrators. I’m certainly not better than anyone else, but I do have better things to do than deal with someone else’s petty attacks.

Happy Thanksgiving…for those who believe in giving thanks.

Mr. Mueller pointed me to this site so that I could check out the discussion. Mr. Mueller is a very, very good friend of mine and an absolutely terrific person. You ain’t gonna find a better person than Mr. Mueller. Our relationship is: one absolutely straight guy and one absolutely gay guy being the very best of friends. He argues in favor of an active approach to obtain equal rights, and he gives excellent examples where passivity did not work.

All of the comments here are in response to Huckabee’s views. I don’t need religion or God to help me get through life, but I don’t disparage anyone who believes. I make an exception for my tolerance of other views in Huckabee’s case. He is an idiot, but I respect his right to be one.

I’m not going to preach to all the posters and tell you to get along. You can disagree and attack each other, but you might make more progress if you attack discrimination, either actively or more passively. I will tell you that I’m delighted that you are making progress and that I hope that you keep up the effort, each in his own way. I find arguments against gay rights to be ridiculous. Keep up the good work.

Responding with hatred is never for the betterment of anything. If my response was hateful, it did not come from the place of faith that I seek. What you have taught me today is that hatred is indeed bred. Thanks for setting that example so eloquently. No church could have done it quite as well.

While I understand your aversion to religious dogma, you DO acknowledge the respect one must be given to achieve ANY kind of success in communication. I take issue with people who willingly attack me personally when I have merely expressed an opinion on a message board that might inspire or elicit healthy debate, not a chracter assassination. This toxic rhetoric is the same language that has failed for centuries between people who disagree. I don’t see myself as irrational or naive, because i have seen both sides of the theological fence, and I have my own way of seeing things which I am free to explore. Being thatt his is on a public message board, however, I guess I am fair game for any bitter cretin that wants everyone to follow the leader, but sees that a few might have a mind of their own.  I really don’t need to sulk in my room, because I understand already that it is THESE kinds of attacks from these kinds of people that paint us in such negative light. I know what I know, and I don’t apologize or need to defend it… and i certainly don’t need to bend to the will of modern day dictators. In my faith, I am trying to set an example by moving past the lines that divide us. Wasn’t that what this election was about? Change? It is impossible to do that, however, when someone you deal with is simply stuck in their own self-righteousness. In this case, the Mormons are in the same sinking boat as Mr. Mueller. Unwarranted attacks deserve to be responded with due retribution, however, regardless of what side of the fence you are on. It’s even more absurd, though, when one is attacking from the side of a fence in a field I am not even standing in! I differentiate myself from those who paint the world with such broad strokes of black and white. The nature of MY faith is not to dictate provocation or prejudice, but to try and bridge the gaps, and for one to assume that I am a carbon copy is sheer ignorance. Just because one does not UNDERSTAND my faith does not give them reason to attack… THAT would be like someone lynching me for being gay & married. In a field that is burning, the hypocrites on either side will have a difficult time staying alive when the fence is the only respite for both. I have many friends who are atheists who discuss these things intelligently and respectfully with me ON that fence. People who DON’T know how to do that are the ones ruining it for the rest of us. That is why the world is fucked. And although Christ said I must pray for my enemies.  it doesn’t mean I have to like them, or to put up with their shit.  So with that, I will go and take a dump, and think about Mr. Mueller & pray for him while I squeeze one out. He tries to turn the tables on me with this ridiculous “mud-slinging” reference when he says that I try to preach “do as I say and not as I do”. I think he confuses me with himself. In my initial posts, I wasn’t “preaching”, but actually trying to elaborate on how dialogue must be drawn between two parties who have such animosity, with patience and understanding. I attempted to illustrate this THROUGH MY OWN FAITH (which was NOT defined by Mr. Mueller respectfully or adequately) and I was attacked by his foul retribution. He only proves that no matter what anyone says, if one doesn’t “do as HE says”, then their solution is not acceptable. At least I know what my limits are, and I know when someone berates me after I’ve done nothing but offer a peaceful insight, then they don’t deserve my respect. He may see what he wants to see in my contribution to the forum, but until he inserted his nose into the dialogue with his brand of arrogance, I was merely expressing an opinion. From that opinion, he nurtured hatred. I guess that means “he wins”. Ha, what a joke. My atheists friends are never this ugly towards me. Forgive me Jesus, but Mr. Mueller really must be a fucking douchebag. He doesn’t believe in Jesus anyway, so what does he care? (Sorry, I forgot to turn my cheek).
By the way, “turning the cheek” does not only inflict damage on the on the one being struck. The psychological destruction affects everyone involved. I can heal from that damage through my faith…and anyone who cannot understand that, has to question whether they even have a heart at all. Maybe it’s a fable, but where no forgiveness or mercy exists, I believe hell has already been created in those who relish in such hatred.

Tsk. Tsk. A perfect example of do as I say, not as I do. You sermonize me about turning the other cheek and making an example of ourselves by showing love and understanding…and then resort to name calling when you can’t get me to see your point of view” So typical of you religious types.

When intelligent dialogue breaks down and reason fails, then the mud-slinging begins. And please, don’t tell me that the bible is a source of reason. It’s not. It’s just inane rhetoric that you will never get me to believe.

Other than disagreeing strongly with you about religion and honestly telling you so, I do not recall resorting to calling you any names.

Be that as it may, I perceive from everything you have said thus far that you are a pacifist. That, of course, is your privilege. I will not try to convince you to be otherwise.

I can only liken your pacifism with that of HRC, who tells the gay community to keep sending money, but to keep a low profile and not makes waves, lest we offend the straight people in Wash. DC or upset any apple carts.

Obviously, they believe in running the show, from the top down and are not interested in hearing from the man in the street. From what we have seen since the election, it would appear that the man in the street is no longer interested in hearing from them.

HRC seems to believe that catered, lavish dinners in Tuxedos and evening gowns, makes a much more positive statement for gays in general.

The only problem is, fundraisers and catered dinners doesn’t get our civil-rights back.

Oh well. They weren’t important anyway, were they?

Let me just say this about that.

I am as gay as the next guy, and damned well proud of it. However, I see no reason why I should not disagree (and say so) with someone just because they are gay. There is no reason why I should agree with them when I don’t or buy into their bullshit if it doesn’t ring true.

I don’t hesitate to disagree with homophobic straights or the religious right. Why should I hesitate to disagree with gays when I feel that they are not acting in the best interest of the gay community?

Case in point: Log cabin gays that voted for McCain/Palin and Yes on Prop. 8. I should bite my tongue rather than speak up?

And why is it that when Pope, the Bishops or the Mormon Church lie and say terrible things about gays, it’s ok and we gays are supposed to “respect” them.

But when we speak up to defend ourselves, it’s called “Church-bashing’? Wouldn’t you call that a double standard?

Other than that, Mr. Moore, how was your day? ;-)

That said, however, I had no argument with Reed McGowan until he began preaching to the choir with post number 54 awhile back, telling us what we all needed to do. In fact, I do not believe that I said a word to him prior to post No 54.

And that’s the gist of my argument. I am sick and tired of being told what to do by people who think that theirs is the only right viewpoint and that everyone else’s thinking sucks. So typical of bible-reading people, especially Christians and Mormons.

I don’t preach Atheism. In fact, I rarely bring up the topic since it is almost as inflamatory on these threads as talking about Christianity.

And yes, I have self-interest and I certainly do not need to apologize for that either. Having my civil-rights taken away from me, is about as “self-interest” as it can get. Should I simply sit by and hope that some kind individual or God will give those rights back to me?

As regards to both of us having to respect each other, I believe that respect needs to be earned. Respect is not right to which one is automatically entitled.

The bible-thumpers who just took my rights away, have done nothing to earn my respect, therefore I shall continue to fight them until they learn to STFU and stop pushing their “agenda” on the gay community and telling us how to live our lives.

I don’t give a good fuck what Christians, Mormons, Jews and Muslims do in their temples and homes, but when they join up with each other, as had just happened on November 4, and tell me what I can do in the privacy of my own home, then I think I have a right and a duty to speak up and protest.

I’ve held my peace and shown my respect for 72 years. I cannot bring my partner of 6 years now to this country on account of these idiots. That pisses me regally.

I am not holding my piece anymore! I am going to speak up, robustly, every time someone thinks that they have the right to mess not only with my head, but with my civil-liberties as well.

Sorry, I will not go to my room. I will not STFU and I will not allow myself to be pushed around by anyone who thinks that he is better than me.

And if they can’t deal with that, then tough titty!

I grew up in a religious household, read the Bible, went to church, and studied my catechism faithfully leading to my confirmation. I never felt belief and one day while standing in front of a large congregation as the lector at that mass and right in the middle of the Old Testament reading, a light flashed in my eyes and I realized that I believed not a word of it. I was reading a fable. The wine remained wine and the wafer remained just a tasteless cracker.

I do not begrudge anyone who wants to believe as long as they don’t feel they have a duty to save my soul by badgering me. Many of my family and friends who are believers respect my position.

Now, back to you and Mr. Mueller. How can we win if we eat our own? A proselytizing atheist is as annoying as a religious fanatic. Just as I don’t want some Christian here in the Bible Belt trying to shove religion down my throat, I do not try to force them to see reason. Both of you need to respect each other. Now go to your rooms and sit quietly until you undersand.

The fact that other minorities were persecuted or still are is not directly relevant to this conversation. We are talking about gay people. When black people were struggling in the 60s to regain rights, their efforts were not because of or in spite of discrimination against Native Americans. Jews did not resist persecution or discrimination because of black Americans plight or because Gypsies and gay men were killed in the camps as well. They resisted discrimination because it affected them.

Sigh.

You don’t know me, and yet you make presumptuous comments, not knowing that I have read the Bible, and other great books of faith…and have come to an understanding which does not lump me in with the band of terrorists you seem to equate with all who have ANY sort of faith. There is no unity in this world, because it is apparent that by the likes of you (which includes the religious zealots), that you demand a violent response. You have no interest in any conversation except self-interest. It is obvious in your reaction. You address me with condescension & infantile metaphors that only prove to me that you have no capacity to seek any knowledge or experience other than your own, which in your infinite wisdom, is apparently doing wonders for the world. I guess that makes you soooo much better than those who you try to condemn for their misguided discriminations. I applaud you. Take a bow now, and go back to the cloud you have made for yourself. I might have my own interpretations which you don’t understand or agree with, but it doesn’t mean I have to accept your patronage with a smile and a prayer. You are just as bad as the Pat Robertsons in this world who create havoc with your nasty, myopic view that adds nothing but noise to the landscape. Anyone that you disagree with seems to be a target for your foul demeanor, and I guess it only means you must really hate yourself to go to such lengths to try and pump yourself up. What a pathetic ego you must have. I hope you can sense my disapproval, and use it to fuel and feed your hatred. It will make you a much better devil (or asshole, if you prefer). Meanwhile, I’ll do my own thing and wish I had never met you…even if it has been online. From the sounds of it, you seem like a person that not many people would want to be around anyway. Why, I bet even plants die in your presence. Feed off of that, you louse. Go and make the world a wretched place with your contrary message of hope. Destroy destroy destroy, and then pat yourself on the back. Someone in hell will give you an award.

Oh wait, that’s right there is no hell. My bad.
Have a nice day. Or not. I really don’t care.

Oops, I missed the very last sentence of your sermon.

“If you choose not to believe in God, then that is your right…however, it is also your responsibility as an adult to treat others with differences of opinion with equal dignity and respect.”

Umm…could we play that back for the benefit of the good Christians and Mormons, notably, who just outspent the Equality folk, ACLU and HRC out of the water to pass their ever so twisted notion of “preserving American families” please?

This too, was done in the name of God, another example of using God to hurt and persecute minorities who do not agree with their convictions. And now that we are protesting your spiteful actions, you do the “We’re being bashed by the queers” act.

Spare me, puleeeeeaze.Where is the “dignity and “respect” that we are equally deserving of, or, is this just a one-way street? You do the slamming and we do the respecting? Sounds like a pretty shitty trade-off, if you ask me.

If you like have the toe of a boot in your asshole each time someone chooses to kick you in the ass, all fine and dandy. But don’t you fucking DARE tell me that I need to bend over (turn the other cheek) to accept the toe of your boot. Oddly enough, the lyrics of the song that Anna sings to the King of Siam, “Let me tell you what I think of you” come to mind.

“Tell us how low to bow, your Majesty. Give us a kick if you would, your Majesty. Oh, oh…that was good, your Majesty.

Bottom line. Ya get what ya dish out. And often, it’s in spades.

“The bible and the God of the bible are the reasons this wacky conversation is going on all over the world.”

AMEN! I’m with you, dude. I have been making a case for atheism for quite some time now, despite all the “doubting Thomas’” who pound their fucking buy-bulls to shreds quoting the infamous lie that all the bad people in the world are Atheists, when there is no proof positive of that fact.

In fact, one has only to look at the annals of history to ascertain where all the bad people and the concept of good and “evil” are coming from….from the very same people who waged all the religious wars…and all in the name of God.

Sorry, buddy, but the ‘core” message of your bible is one of hatred and fucked-up values. It’s what we are trying to deal with in California, Florida, Arizona and Arkansas. The good, God-fearing, bible-readers who never miss an opportunity to quote hateful passages from it to justify their vilaneous, disgusting actions.

I am sick and tired of hearing the same, tired and trite “good” quotes from the, while the violent and often terrifying passages are glossed over. I suggest that you, and others like you, sit down and really read the bible, from cover to cover, absorbing everything that it in, and then try to tell the rest of us that every word in it, without exception, is virtual truth direct from the mouth of God?

Ah yes, I can hear it now….

“Onward Chrisitian soldiers, marching as to war”

Better yet, you can hear it (and sing along too if you like) at…

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/n/onwardcs.htm

Sings your hearts out, Louise. Do it until your fucking vocal cords shrivel up and we can’t hear the likes of you anymore.

Reed, could you tell me that wonderful bedtime story about the little old man with a white beard sitting on a cloud in heaven, one more time please?

It’s such a nice story and I do like it so.

Oh, and btw, I just put a quarter under my pillow for the tooth-fairy.

Nighty-nite, now.

I understand what you are saying, but it is gross misinterpretation and distortion of the Bible and God as a whole which creates fear and intimidation. I am a Christian because I understand what the core of the message implicates, and how it SHOULD be applied to my life. How it is related to the history of the Bible and God is very relevant, but it must be studied and looked at as a whole, not picked apart and used in sound bytes for selfish purposes. In this YouTube generation, we have become accustomed to making assumptions based on fragmented information. It is not the Bible which is in distortion, but the misunderstanding by the masses (and even the church) which creates division & chaos. Unfortunately, not everyone can go to seminary to understand how it all ties together. But the basic principles of Christ are enough to suffice when it comes to covering the foundation we should all live by…the same basic creeds that are shared by Buddhists, Muslims, and all peoples of devout faith who yearn for a just society. It is a gross perversion of truth (by those who don’t understand it) which perpetuates hatred and confusion. Peace is at the core of the message, and it should be the impetus for all who desire change, whether they be straight or gay. A peaceful response requires accountability. A violent one does not. By your actions, you are known for who you are. If you choose not to believe in God, then that is your right…however, it is also your responsibility as an adult to treat others with differences of opinion with equal dignity and respect.

PS ~ My understanding of faith may not be the same as yours once was (the “former rhetoric” you spoke of). My head is not in any heavenly clouds, because the hell that I have experienced has shown me that peace can only be found within, not in some nebulous ethereal void. It is a different perspective altogether, and too long to go into on this forum. However, it recognizes all those atrocities you described, and does not dismiss or validate them, but rather it strives to show the very nature of evil, and point me in a better direction. Some people do not believe in a God, or evil… from my own observations, I would say that the contrasts exist in ways even more visceral than we can express.
The sarcasm and mockery in my previous response to you exemplifies the very core of what I am trying to relay, with regards to malice. It does no good to fuel this incessant rage. All it does is create a cycle of endless destruction. The party that chooses to stop it and “turn the other cheek”, is in fact, NOT the loser. They have chosen to not participate in the violence. They have won. You may disagree, but where does that leave you? With a bitter heart, and an empty soul. My choice leaves me with peace. I would say that the presence of peace in the midst of chaos is argument enough that God is indeed alive…and heals where no one or nothing else can reach.

I guess you are right. I take everything back. We should pursue with equal venom and destroy destroy destroy. Blood should run through the streets. Your way is much better.

Of course, I am being sarcastic.

Your brain is clouded with violence. And yes, “turning the other cheek”, is a better option (in my opinion). But I don’t expect you to understand my view, considering where you are looking from. I used to hold those stagnant, corrosive opinions as well….but it did me no good, and neither to anyone around me. What you are attempting to do is define my beliefs and understanding of God & faith according to your own perspective. You cannot expect to have respectful, balanced dialogue unless you approach it from a neutral, non-violent position. This does not mean giving up your convictions, but rather, it means coming together with others in the sound assurance of your own understanding, and giving others the respect & dignity they deserve as human beings. This is the only way to hope to have any sort of unity between parties of different ideology.

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

Spare me, please. Get your head out of the religious heavenly clouds and come back to the reality of earth.

I have no doubt that you are sincere in your convictions and that you really believe that you can effectively change the hypocrisy, bigotry, hatred and ignorance of people who are hell bent on destroying gays, by treating them with love. What you are saying, in essence, is “Turn the other cheek”.

Sorry, but I don’t buy into that rhetoric anymore. I once did, but based on my observations of the length to which these hate filled people will go to in order to strip us of our dignity and civil-rights, I have come to the realisation that turning the other cheek is for losers.

Can you imagine, for instance, six-million Jews trying to win-over their captors and inquisitors by showing them love, compassion and understanding? Would it have worked, even if they could have swallowed all of their heartache and suffering, loss of human dignity, loss of homes, worldly possessions, separation from children and loved ones and the bitterness they were left with as they were systematically worked to death and exterminated like vermin in the Nazi concentration camps?

Have you ever spent an evening perusing the Internet for the horrifying details of what went on during that ghastly time in history? It is impossible to read all of it without being reduced to a sobbing mess. It makes one ashamed of admitting to even being a member of the human race, if this is an example of what one human being can do to another…and all under the guise of “Gutt mit uns” (God With us).

Better yet, try sitting through a showing of Shindler’s List and see how much love, compassion and understanding you can muster up for the Nazi’s who destroyed the lives of 6 million Jews and tens of thousands of Gays, Gypsies and other “undersirables” that had no place in Hitler’s perfect Aryan World. You’ll be head-on with devasting madness and need a week or more to gather your composure back sufficiently to function as a human being again.

Disgusting doesn’t even begin to convey the true nature of such a horrendous display of mans inhumanity toward his fellow man. And all because of some German wall-paperer, who hated Jews and queers, was able to whip all the dormant, unexpressed feelings of hatred in the bosoms and hearts of millions of Germans who turned their heads away, pretending that, like Schultz of Hogan’s Heros, “I know nothink”.

To ask for such Herculean, high moral road actions from the victims of the unspeakable crimes and atrocities that they suffered and endured, would have been totally unrealistic and grossly unfair. Unless one is the son of God aho sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity, I don’t think you are going to find many human being capable of that sort of love and self-sacrifice.

Do you really think for one moment, that Hitler really gave a good shit about one, single soul that he tortured and murdered? Do you think that speaking softly and kindly to him and showing him love would have changed his demeanor even one iota?

Monsters like him and the henchmen under his command, do not even comprehend the meaning of the word love, much less understand what compassion is. Both of these attribute are foreign to them, even despised.

Sure, Hitler loved his dog, but did that tiny little flicker of humanity manifest itself in any appreciable manner at Auschwitz or Dachau? Get serious. There were gold filling to be mined and lampshades to be produced from the tanned skins of human beings.

One doesn’t stop monsters and ogres with a pat on the head or by blowing kisses at them. And saying prayers and making Novenas in Churches falls exceedingly short of changing people with murder in their hearts.

People like this only understand one thing…the application of brute force. Brute force is what it took to rout these maggots who preyed on the flesh of humanity and put an end to the misery and suffering that they inflicted on everything and everyone they touched.

Teach them how to unconditionally love? Amelia Erhart will make an appearance before that ever happens.

Had we not applied brute force during WWII, you and I might very well be speaking German, Japanese… or Germanese, a mixture of both.