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If Bi Or Straight Baseball Players Want to Play in the Gay League, We Should Let Them

Answering criticism for ousting three bisexual-identifying male players for not being, well, gay, the North American Gay Amateur Athletic Association is mounting the most ineffective of all defenses: Don’t hate on us because we’re small and trying rilly hard! Playing the victim doesn’t get you anywhere in the press. Or the courts. Especially when you’re on the side of defending discrimination.

“At its core, NAGAAA is a grass roots organization dedicated to providing a safe environment for gays and lesbians,” says a statement released by NAGAAA. “We have no paid staff; we do not have large sums of money, nor a pool of talented lawyers. It saddens all of us that the NCLR, whom we view as members of our community, have chosen this destructive path. NAGAAA represents a diverse population, and as such there are legitimate differences of opinion among us. However, the action by the NCLR has forced these differences into the court system, rather than allowing our members the right to define who and what we are. One thing is clear, if NCLR is successful, the enormous monetary damages they seek will put our very existence in jeopardy. Regardless of the outcome, everyone loses here. There are no winners We are just at the beginning of this difficult saga. The Board is committed to representing our organization to the best of our abilities. We are guided by the framework of our organizational charter, as written by you, our members. We commit to keeping you informed as this process continues. We believe that once the facts are discovered a very different story emerges from that which has been reported, and we hope that NCLR will join with us.”

So, the reason you don’t want to be sued is because the gays should watch out for each other? Hah. If that were so, GLAAD and HRC would never be criticized.

Moreover, the argument in favor of insular policing is the same one the Catholic Church is, right this minute, trying to defend in its handling of sexual abuse cases. No, not an apples to apples plot, but if your organization breaks the law, by discriminating against someone on the basis of their sexuality, you don’t get to play a game of inside baseball and mitigate things for yourself. Your actions infringed upon the rights guaranteed to all people, and you surrender your authority when you violate them.

If the claims in NCLR’s lawsuit are true, that NAGAAA asked players about their sex lives as some sort of certification for homosexuality to see who can play, then you violated not only your players’ right to privacy, but the unwritten core tenant of the LGBT community: Thou shalt not discriminate. Even the world’s largest gay sporting event, the Gay Games, while encouraging LGBT athletes, does not force entrants to pass a litmus test to compete, and is orientation- and identity-blind. These entities are there to encourage participation from sexual minorities, sure; they are also there to foster an environment where heterosexism is not the norm. Straight athletes who choose to take part are helping achieve that goal. Unless they are making homophobic remarks, or making a bigger deal about their sexuality than you are, let them play. The NAGAAA’s rules allow two straight players per team, which is a nice way of offering a couple of spots to token straights (who often happen to be excellent players), and for some that might be enough. But what if a black league only offered two spots for whites? You can see where this is going.

And even if these men are heterosexual, and not bi? We should still be welcoming them to play. That they’ve got no problem playing in an almost entirely gay league says much about their character. That NAGAAA officials refuse to let straight athletes play, well, it says even more about their lack of it.


  • 94 Comments
    • John K.
      John K.

      Total agreement. Shame on the organization if these allegations are true.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 1:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jeff M.
      Jeff M.

      ditto. shameful conduct by the NAGAAA that is not justifiable in any way, shape or form.

      Discrimination laws work both ways. That’s why they aren’t “special rights” for gays and lesbians. They protect EVERYONE from being discriminated against on the basis of an immutable characteristic.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 1:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jessie
      Jessie

      Agreed.

      Straight brahs should be allowed to play on the gay team.

      If only so that we can call THEM fucking faggots from the bleachers.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 1:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jerr Bear
      Jerr Bear

      Some of the nicest rugby players I know are straight. Okay, so THE nicest. But that’s very likely because he is the only one who isn’t trying to sleep with me.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 2:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lamar
      Lamar

      And I suppose we should let men join women’s fitness clubs? I think we as gays should be allowed to have separate things for ourselves without being accused of unfair discrimination or segregation. There are enough straight leagues out there so they have the choice to go somewhere else. Having siad publicly humiliating players because of their bisexuality or heterosexuality is totally wrong however and is not acceptable as they are not our enemies.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 2:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KP
      KP

      I would like NAGAAA to amend its rules to permit teams to play, period. There are rules that can be implemented to ensure that in order to play in the World Series at season’s end players have played in, for example, 80% of the team’s league games. This shows individuals commitment to the team and williingness to be associated with “gay softball.” As for early season tournaments NAGAAA needs to work to better define and enforce its rating system to make certain players are playing against teams with similar levels of talent.

      I think that doing this would resolve what happens in the future. The specific case at hand may resolve in any number of ways and we’ll have to let them ultimately fight it out. And while I don’t like the rules in place and they are discriminatory and maybe even illegal, I understand that NAGAAA was attempting to make a safe and comfortable environment AND to prevent teams bringing in a bunch of non-league players to tournmants just in order to win.

      As to the D2 team and the tournament they were kicked out of, the rules were explicit. Teams were allowed two non-gay players. If you play in these leagues you identify as gay unless you are one of the two token straights. At the Series it was evident that D2 had more than 2 non-gay players which was clearly against the rules. They cheated. Bad rule, for sure. But the D2 team didn’t try to change the rule, they simply tried to sneak past it. Clearly some of the other teams that followed the rule felt betrayed, hurt, angry, etc. and filed a protest which is why there was an inquiry and the eventual expulsion.

      One question is how did this team play in the SF gay league all year and the league sanctioned these players to go the World Series? Did they play in the league or not? If they did and met the league’s standards then why were they deemed not qualified to play in the Series?

      Funny thing is, if they had said they were gay then none of this would have happened. Have things changed so much that straights are teeming to play gay/lesbian softball? In some cities perhaps. It is not surprising that D2 is from a more progressive city where gays and non-gays tend to intermix more openly and likely to have more integrated teams. Looks like its time for a rule change NAGAAA!

      Apr 23, 2010 at 2:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • TiredOldQueen@Queerty
      TiredOldQueen@Queerty

      I was always under the impression the rules had as much to do with trying to prevent teams from loading up with ringers — players of any sexuality who were brought aboard to lift the team’s ranking because they were really good. The leagues have always been intensely competitive, and in these situations some might consider reaching out to players for skill only. I mean, look at the NCAA. Colleges do it all the time.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 2:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darryl!
      Darryl!

      Sad is the fact that people are gullible enough to feed into this drama like this is a real issue. I want to use the women’s bathroom, but I can’t. Arggh discrimination. Some woman wants to date me, but I didn’t give her the time of day. Arggh discrimination. Just because someone wants something, why does it mean automatic obligation to give it to them? Of course it doesn’t, and particularly when they already have or can find an equal alternative. For every new state that allows gay marriage, there should be a corresponding decrease in the intensity of gay activism, otherwise, you run the risk of looking like you have an agenda other than the one you publicly acknowledge.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 3:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Storm
      Storm

      @KP: “At the series it was evident that D2 had more than two non-gay players.”

      Okay, how was it “evident?” Did the players walk too butch? Hit the ball too hard? Did they spit? Would this be an issue at all if D2 were not winning? Instead, a losing team opted for the lamest of ploys to stop their opponents.

      And you can’t overlook the fact that of the -five- people whose sexuality was challenged, only the black players were removed. Bad sportsmanship -and- racism.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 3:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tommy
      Tommy

      I don’t understand what the reason is to have separate teams or leagues for gay people.
      It makes sense to have separate teams for women and men because it wouldn’t be fair because most men are physically stronger and weigh more than women.
      Discrimination like that is allowed when there’s a rational basis for it. But what is the reason for having a gay team. Surely, people can’t believe that gay men are weaker or can’t play as well as straight men.
      They don’t have black or Hispanic teams where white people aren’t allowed, why have gay teams?
      And I’ve never heard of a straight team, where gays and bisexuals are banned.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 4:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS
      PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS

      Damm, I can’t say no to the not so Gays!! :-p

      Apr 23, 2010 at 4:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      The point of having a place like a sporting team to hang out as a gay man is that you don’t have that many social outlets outside of bars (including in New York City) to hang out with other gay men. Not really. So its nice to do so. There’s nothing circular about the argument unless you living in a fantasy gay bubble where such issues of common connection are not a factor. For the rest of us living normal lives, it is.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 4:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @Tommy: They have black and latino and gay organizations in all sorts of fields and endeavors. Nice try. But you are totally wrong factually. I was a member of several black student organizations in college and am a member of a black professional organization now. I also once attended a men’s help group for gay black men. By your warped logic and that of the writer here, there was something wrong with gay black men to want to congregate together to discuss our issues or connect with each other as gay black men in a mostly white dominated gay culture, and likewise there is something wrong with gay men to want a social outlet to hang out with other gay men outside of straight dominate culture. Some of youa re so busy tryng to be “post gay” or integrated thatyou can’t appreciate that for some they need this space. This reminds me of DR’s comment in which it was really alla bout where DR was in DRs life. It is like the needs of others did not enter into the equation. I suspect that’s the problem with the lack of understanding here by some of you. You are self absorbed so you can’t fathom a different world view.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 4:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • PopSnap
      PopSnap

      @D’oh

      Agreed. I live in NE Ohio and while there are gays, and they are tolerated, there aren’t gay flags flying on every street corner (unless you’re in Lakewood, or on Detroit Avenue in Cleveland). I LIKE being able to hang with other people like me. Clubs & bars are okay but it’s sometimes hard to strike up conversation with a total stranger.

      It’s not discrimination. It’s called common courtesy. I wouldn’t barge into a Breast Cancer Survivors meeting and then claim discrimination when people treat me oddly. It’s not that the breast cancer survivors are mean or discriminatory- it’s just, well, I’m a male who has never had cancer so what the hell am I doing there?

      Apr 23, 2010 at 4:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Edel
      Edel

      Let them play!!!!

      Apr 23, 2010 at 5:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tommy
      Tommy

      @D’oh, The Magnificent:

      Yes, but those organizations are to promote equal rights for black people or help black people in a social or career way. That makes sense to me.
      Here we are talking about playing a sport. What does that have to do with discussing anything specific to black or gay people?
      I didn’t say that organizations can never be limited to people of one race or sexual orientation. I said it doesn’t make sense to me to have an all gay sports team.
      And you can’t compare a group for breast cancer survivors to a sports team. I think the membership can be limited to being a part of a minority if that is germane to the group’s purpose. But this is a sports team.
      And why do you only want to hang out with only gay men? I base my friendships on whether I like that person, not their sexual orientation, if you are talking about forming platonic relationships. Life would be very boring if you can only hang out with people just like you. Diversity is the spice of life.

      Now of course if you are looking to have a romantic relationship I can see why you would want to just be around gay men. But I don’t think a sports team is the only way you can meet someone to have a relationship with.
      I think we can never have equal rights until we stop defining ourselves purely by being gay but accept everyone on an equal basis as whether they are good people. If we want to be accepted for who we are, we should accept other people for who they are and not try to exclude people.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 5:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • KP
      KP

      @Storm: The story goes that several male players had their wives and/or girlfriends attending the games. And while I was there playing, I can’t confirm. Just what I was told.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 5:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • AlwaysGay
      AlwaysGay

      The fact remains there have been ZERO openly gay MLB or minor league players ever! The NAGAAA was set up as a reaction to anti-gay bigotry. Gay people are raised by heterosexuals. If anti-gay bigotry didn’t exist we wouldn’t be forced out of our communities and into new ones we made ourselves. As long as anti-gay bigotry exists leagues like the NAGAAA are worthy and just.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 5:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @Tommy: No they are not always there to promote rights. Some are just there to allow for a social space for emotional support over issues that others of the group face or to have as one poster put it a social space. It is not all about politics. I think many here as I keep saying are too stuck in their own bubbles. This to me, the idea of having a comfortable social space, is a no brainer. Why do you think so many gay men are pathological? It is because they are never allowed to be comfortable in their own skin. It is like that question they asked the other day on this site about whether someone would take a pill to not be gay, and a sizeable number said yes. That’s because they never had, as I have had, a chance to really develop a comfort that comes with just hanging out with people like you other than in situations that are not designed for such building. A bar or a club while fun is not designed for a lot of true social interaction. Just because you don’t see these or experience these things does not mean others have no. THis is what I meant by self absorption and/or living in a bubble.

      I actually do not play sports. I just know people who do. I also know that my own process for accepting myself was to have the space to do it. It is not as simple as the writer of this article claims or as others keep trying to make it. Its actually very complicated in the sense that yes we don’t want to discriminate, but no, that does not mean that people of a particular characteristic that is discriminated against should not have a social space to learn to be comfortable with that characteristic in their own way. I just more of the popular gays would appreciate this complexity rather than trying to shoehorn everyone into a one size fit all social outlet.

      On a person level, just to give an example, I am a geek. I would love to have a gay space that’s just for gay geeks in NYC, but it doesn’t exist. Does that mean I never want to hang out with straights? No, it just means something I want to just hang out with gay men who are socially like me regarding what we like to do. Does that mean I dislike all other gay men? No, it just means that other gay men when I talk about my love of comic books don’t get it so I want to hang out with gay men who do.

      I don’t see why this is so hard to understand other than the need to politicize it or sensationalize it. It is not just about romantic relationship (this again by the way is your projection- the friends I have who wanted to play sports wanted to do so because they have to deal with straight men in every other aspect of their lives and just wanted a way to hang out as friends with other gay men doing something they all like doing. Its a level of comfort thing. No matter how well meaning- being around straight men when you have to deal with that pressure day in and day out is not always something that one wants..

      @PopSnap: Exactly. I mean it is discrimination but the point is not to exclude for the purpose of harming the straight guy or bi guy, but for a chance to hang out with other gay men in a different context than bars.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 5:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Speedsausage
      Speedsausage

      The whole reason for the 2 hetero rule is there are a bunch of scared, wheezing, goat-footed old queens in NAGAAA that are afraid if they let in too many straights they will somehow hijack gaysoftball. Because there are TONS of straight guys that are eager to play ball with a bunch of fags.

      I’ve played gay softball for a while, and our league welcomes everyone regardless of orientation. And some of my straight acquaintances, when they find out I play ball, ask if they can join. I tell them “sure, but it’s a gay league”. Most take a pass.

      Having straight players doesn’t make your team better, and only the most open minded and secure straight guys would ever go to the World Series, it’s a friggin’ meat market.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 5:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @Speedsausage: Your wording tells me you are full of shit and probably some liar posting on the site. look, here’s the thing to people who post like you do- if you want to make a point, and be believed. say it in a way that does not attack gay men for wanting to hang out with gay men without having to deal with heterosexuality, which as one person points out dominates what sports we can and can not play in other context, and for whom I have mentioned we must deal with in other aspects of our lives.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 6:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      By the way one other example is a gay friend of mine who did not have many gay male friends and he joined to meet more gay men to develop friendships with. It was precisely because he had a relationship that he was not joining a sports team for a hook up. For various reasons related to the amount of time he committed to his career and partner, finding a hobby like this was his practical way of dealing of increasing his circle of gay friends.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 6:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Joe Reilly
      Joe Reilly

      Aside from the NAGAAA’s rule being a bad rule, it is ridiculously unenforceable–do they really think having a vote about a person’s sexual orientation is in any way valid? Besides bisexuals, who else’s sexual orientation do we get to vote on? Do they also vote on a member’s gender?

      Self-identified bisexuals really have to prove they are gay enough, huh? Well, I’ve been monogamously married to a woman for the past 10 years and I have two beautiful daughters. Before that, I dated men and women, but only had sex with men. I identified as bisexual the entire time. Am I gay enough? Does my activism and community volunteering have to be taken into account? Aside from my self-identity, my sexual and dating history, and my attractions (which remain for both men and women), what other factors will you consider?

      Apr 23, 2010 at 6:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Speedsausage
      Speedsausage

      @D’oh, The Magnificent:

      You want me to say what I mean, then here it is:

      The rule is patently discriminatory and arbitrary. It’s the only rule that doesn’t deal with the skill level of the player. It’s no different than saying only 2 blacks, or 2 asians. Ejecting someone from a tournament on the basis of his/her sexual orientation is wrong.

      If I get your point correctly the intent of the rule is to make sure the gay players are able to participate in a comfortable environment. My problem is in order to achieve that goal, NAGAAA has visited a terrible injustice on another human being. As a minority group that has been subjected to this type of exclusion you think we’d know better.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 6:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      I don’t agree with women-only fitness clubs. I think they’re a reflection of petty female attitudes and privilege-seeking.

      As for the gay baseball team, I think a better word would be “gay-friendly”. This covers everything and anyone, and doesn’t discriminate. So long as you don’t harbor discriminatory and hateful attitudes to gay people, you should be welcome to join.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 6:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Steve
      Steve

      There have been court cases in which “private” clubs have asserted their right to set their own “membership standards”. The Supreme Court has upheld those rights, as “associational free speech”. The Boy Scouts, as one example, has gone to court to defend its own right to exclude gays.

      Based on those exact precedents, a gays-only private club should have a right to set its own membership standards.

      If the gays-only club appeals this all the way to the Supreme Court, cites the Dale case (the Boy Scouts case), and gets the Court to over-rule its own previous decision, then it might be a very good result. That is not likely to happen.

      The more likely result will be in agreement with the previous cases, and serve only to reinforce the right to exclude based on sexual orientation.

      What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, but also, what’s good for the gander is good enough for the goose, as well.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 7:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Speedsausage
      Speedsausage

      @Steve:

      Agreed, but this isn’t a situation of a gay-only private club. Each team is allowed two hetero players and would be akin to limiting the number of female players in a co-ed league. The fact that they allow the exception is what’s going to bite them in the ass.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 7:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DR
      DR

      The NAGAAA’s response is anti-bisexual. That’s the issue at hand. They want to define themselves according to a false dichotomy (yes, I said it in the other thread and I’m saying it here). Safe spaces are one thing, but claiming those safe spaces and denying the experiences of bisexuals is unfair. While it may be legal (a point I refuse to concede at this time), it’s totally immoral as far as I’m concerned, and if the lawsuit is kicked out on summary judgment, I can only hope that the GLB community shows the NAGAAA the same courtesy it showed the Boy Scouts, which is working to make sure no one gives them any money.

      Wanna discriminate against our own in an effort to be exclusionary, well, it works both ways, whether you’re a straight org keeping gays out or a gay org keeping bisexuals out.

      Apr 23, 2010 at 8:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darryl!
      Darryl!

      No one is denying bisexuals their experience. But if that lie helps you sleep at night, I guess……

      Apr 24, 2010 at 3:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Max the Communist
      Max the Communist

      *Sigh*
      Another article on the racist, bisexual ban in gay softball and still the main theme of these comments focusses on keeping the straights out. Keep the straights out at all costs–and the people it costs the most are the bis.

      @DR–I thank you for your sanity and support. John K., Jeff M., thank you for standing up for basic human decency and fairness.

      @KP–your solution sounds sensible in that it focusses on the commitment of members to a team and minimizes the potential for ringers–of any sexual orientation–to come in at the final stages of competition.

      @AlwaysGay–sports in America are indeed rife with homophobia. Were there ever any instants of homophobia from the men who were interrogated and/or banned? I’ve not seen one report from any news clip regarding this story. It sounds like they came to play, they came to contribute, they came to socialize in what they thought was a safe atmosphere for them
      .
      Bisexual men also seek relief from the homophobia in sports. In addition, NAGAAA makes no requirement in its guidelines or bylaws to separate bisexual players from gay players into bisexual-only teams or bisexual-only baseball series. NAGAAA explicitly states in its mission that it is there to serve the “gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community.” So why weren’t the bisexual players respected in this instance?

      @KP–some bisexual men have wives or girlfriends; some have gay or trans partners or spouses; some are in open relationships; some engage in polyamory; some are single and unattached. Even if the excluded men did have opposite sex significant others, that doesn’t make them any less bisexual.

      I thank Queerty for continually making a stand against discrimination. Incidents like this make me want to form bisexual-only teams and keep all the gays out. Straights could join, but only if they self-identified as bisexual.

      But that is reactionary and alarmist. So I retract it.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 4:09 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      @D’oh, The Magnificent:

      Sigh. You’re trying to be too reasonable and logical in your post, you must have the wrong place to comment!

      Bottom line is this. Speedsausage doesn’t give a sh*t. He just doesn’t, so it doesn’t matter.

      This will always be the problem that will be a huge issues for minorities until the world becomes less favourable to wealthy, mainstream and white heterosexual males.

      This group was obviously started simply for gay men who loved sports but felt excluded from the homophobia that is rife within hetero men-as we see all the time by those cute gay bashings-and for some reason did not write out a clear model that could develop as times change and grow.

      I bet some of those guys would be dumbfounded to here what some commenters are saying here and that would be because of all they have gone through.

      What they didn’t plan out for was that as times change/grow/develop, there will be a new wave of proud bi and gay men who have little compassion or care about gay rights. They just want to play ball. And they want to win.

      That is fair enough and it’s no one’s fault BUT this organisation because although well meanining, they should’ve highlighted in their vision statement what was the context of this oganisation and that although they love to win, it was equally about the participation and making people feel accepted and safe as gay men.

      I can completely understand why someone would want to run away from the monotonous and homophobic glare of hetero banter-I hear it ALL the time-but I also understand those competitive freaks who put number one first and just want to win.

      This is the problem with so many membership organisations who’ve not changed their vision statement since 100 years ago! People have different agenda’s for joining groups that originally were set up to support minorities.

      See it all the time with those female organisations were there seems to be no concept of sisterhood!

      Apr 24, 2010 at 4:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • softballerforlife
      softballerforlife

      This is a rule that has far outlived its time. As a younger gay man who played baseball throughout High School and College, I heard many of my team make “fag” remarks and stuff like that. BUT (and I say this as a thank you to all of have come before and participated in the stonewall riots, protests, social activism, etc.) times have changed. It used to be necessary that we live in closets and in some places it still may be. But attitudes are shifting and I give thanks to all of those who have made it easier for us younger gay men. Being a member of NAGAAA for the past ten years though I have found a terrible number of men who think that because they have been members for a certain amount of time they are entitled to more respect or more leeway than others. Entitlement is wrong. Discrimination is wrong. Exclusion is wrong. As I have previously stated, NAGAAA is a 501 C 3 recognized organization that is entitled to tax exempt status. In addition, lets look at the cost associated with joining NAGAAA. For an individual to join a local league there is a minimum fee anywhere from 50 to 100 dollars, for a team the fee is an additional 400 to 700 dollars. Add the costs of uniforms, equipment, etc. an additional 1000 dollars. If a team then travels to tournaments an additional 3 to 4 thousand per tournament. If a team then qualify’s for the world series the cost to send a team from(example) Austin, TX to Columbus, OH (this years world series host city) that is airfare, hotel, and expenses for one week for one team a minimum of $7,000. NAGAAA, in its response, is trying to say that this organization is grass roots and lacks funds. At the Winter Meeting in Columbus, the NAGAAA treasurer gave a report that stated NAGAAA currently has a budget surplus of nearly half a million dollars. There are 5000 current players in NAGAAA making it the United States largest Gay Sports Group. However, that being said, there continues to be a group of NAGAAA members that think that they are the rule makers. In Fact, the current commissioner Roy Melani of Portland has shown himself to be somewhat totalitarian in his methods at times. The Protest Committees rarely have members who have been in the league for ten years or less and they tend to refuse to see the tides of change. It is time for change, NAGAAA is growing, and I am thankful for all those that came before and paved the way, but you can’t pave half the road and then stop. If a Bisexual man wants to play, let him play. Someone is a previous post stated that we, as gays, need social outlets to “just be with our own kind”. That is the dumbest and most out of touch statement I have ever heard. Yes, thirty years ago, you probably did need to have a social outlet that was gay only to avoid discrimination and hate. BUT, have 4 bisexual players on a team at a predominately gay even such at the world series is not keeping anyone from having a feeling of freedom and gay pride. Should we stop letting straight people go to gay pride? Would the Gay Bar owners of america ever say no straights allowed? Should we tell our allies to stop supporting us? I think it is awesome that straight men want to be a part of something as awesome as the gay world series. If any homophobic players ever did try and play on a team could you imagine the tragedy that would happen the first time this player yelled faggot on a crowded softball field? This rule is outdated and no longer needed. The NAGAAA board is going to waste that NAGAAA money in defending this lawsuit. They should, instead, issue an apology and refund the money for the expenses that D2 had in traveling to the world series and then ask them board of commissioners to eliminate this rule. Yes you can still call it the gay World Series and the straight men who win will be proud to wear their T shirts that say Gay World Series Champions. However, it should be noted, that the NAGAAA board refuses to put GAY WORLD SERIES on anything sold at the series. All of the apparel, key chaings, mugs, etc. SAY NAGAAA world series. So it shows you that the current board is still emberrassed enough that they wont call it the GAY WORLD SERIES unless prodded to do so.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 4:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      Also D’OH

      Gawkers gaming site has a good amount of gay geeks who post and chat etc exchanging tidbits.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 5:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MasterBater
      MasterBater

      Recently caught beating off! Should I be shamed?

      Jonathan Malcolm Hlutke

      Apr 24, 2010 at 6:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • MasterBater
      MasterBater

      Gays are good ball players, no reason to shut them out.

      Jonathan Malcolm Hlutke’s

      Apr 24, 2010 at 6:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike in Asheville, nee "in Brooklyn"
      Mike in Asheville, nee "in Brooklyn"

      How about everyone settling down a little and inject a little common sense into the equation. There is a easy solution (and several others I’m sure):

      Instead of calling itself the NAGAAA (which means: UGH!) simplify with “Gay League”. Require that all uniforms have either one of the following tag lines, and not in fine print: Gay League OR Friend of Gay League.

      To prevent ringers, require that players participate in a minimum of games to be eligible to tournaments.

      ++++++++++++

      To solve the current problem so that the league does not fold, because that would be a shame, though a new league would probably be formed, the NAGAAA should apologize, agree to rule changes that allow friends of gays to play, nix the disqualification, and make a special apology to the black friends of gays for the insult.

      +++++++++++++

      Across the country the LGBT community shouts that straights DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE ON OUR RIGHTS. And yet there are some among us who want to vote on whether someone is gay enough? Stop the insanity.

      +++++++++++++

      Oh, and love a boy in a baseball/softball uniform (and for the girls, you can hoot too for a girl in a baseball/softball uniform).

      Apr 24, 2010 at 9:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Max the Communist
      Max the Communist

      @softballerforlife: I think I’ve learned more from your post than about 6 news stories on this topic. Thanks for being a fountain of info and a beacon of humanity.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 10:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Thank you. I know you are right about them not giving a shit. That much is clear from their posts. I wanted to present the other side of the coin, which they feel the need to malign. My real issue above the lack of legal issues here is that people feel the need to lie about other people’s motivation.

      Thanks for the heads up over the chat site. Honestly, there really needs to be social outlets for gay men outside of gay bars that are more frequent. I am surprised that in a city like New York City that there aren’t more, and yet, except for the occasional event here and there non-club or bar events are hard to come by that are focused on gay men. I can definitely go to mixed events, but not mostly or all gay. I don’t care what anyone says- mixing a crowd changes the tenor of how people behave in that crowd. Sometimes that’s a good thing, and others, when you are trying to truly just connect it can be a hinderance.

      Even the most liberal gay people in New York City will often not walk around with their partner holding hands for example. This is true to this day. I see it occasionally, but I see A LOT more heterosexuals, including the so-called hip ones holding hands and kissing, and I wonder do they even notice their privilege? Do they even realize that their gay friends are not doing the same or wonder why? It is because of this internalize lack of comfort with being in mixed crowds or in public.

      I am not saying these orgs are a cure all. Far from it. I am saying they are a helpful element toward better socialization and being comfortable in one’s own skin.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 10:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • softballerforlife
      softballerforlife

      @Max. Thanks for the kind words. It is sad to say, however, that some of those OLD SCHOOL NAGAAA members that I talked about are already lambasting my post. We, as GLBT people, want to end so much of the discrimination against us in this world however we are guilty of some of the most self loathing and self depricating statements to each other. We can’t even agree to have a civil disagreement with each other without others making it personal. The NAGAAA board is sending out emails right now all across the country trying to find out who all of these people are that disagree with the D2 decision and for that matter who is posting things on message boards in disagreement or against what the press release on the NAGAAA website states. For the most part many of us JUST want to play softball and could care less about the politics of the league. BUT the organization is full of politics. 30 years ago when the founders of NAGAAA sincerely wanted to find a SAFE way for gay athletes to have an outlet there was a need for it. BUT for NAGAAA to state that we have to have a safe place to play softball in reasons for the straight rule is ridiculous. The truth of the matter is the straight rule is now used as simply a tool to keep ringers out. I cannot think of a single person who is afraid to show up in Memphis or Ft. Lauderdale or Orlando or Atlanta who is afraid to show up every week to play softball for fear of being gay bashed. There are members who are afraid to have their pictures taken. My friend in Philadelphia told me that they even have to sign a waiver there as to whether they are okay with their pictures being used or not on the leagues website. Either they are Gay and afraid of being outed or straight and afraid of association. Seems like if we were more accepting of straight players this would end both of those fears.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 10:58 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Oh, I also agree that trying to be reasonable and logical online is pointless. Unfortunately, too many people see being online as an excuse for the more extreme elements of their personality to just hang out and not give a fuck if they are making sense or not. So, they will write a lot of hyperbole or make silly arguments that in way attempt to balance the discussion.

      Witness the faux intellectualism of DR that changes or tweaks itself with each given discussion but someone always ends up being about what he called biphobia. It doesn’t matter what the subject is- we could be discussing the color of the sky- it is because we are phobic against bisexuals.

      Or some of others here who have this robotic definition of discrimination. It reminds one of the bigot’s definition of tolerance- to be tolerant one must allow the bigot to intolerant. That’s a simplistic definition of the word without any nuance. The same issue is at play here. To not discriminate in a way that is bad, one must never discriminate under any circumstances. By that logic, the question is how do people ever form groups or have friends or hell do anything since discrimination is a part of human existence and it is not all bad. The bad forms are where people are excluding to deny rights or prevent the advancement of another group, etc. When someone joins a club dedicated to video games for example- they are discriminating. But according to these morons at this site- that’s per se bad if they tell someone like me who loves movies that I shouldn’t join.

      I just don’t do well with lazy thinkers.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ossurworld
      ossurworld

      Just who do you have to blow to get on a team?

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @softballerforlife: What’s sad is your attempt to claim this is about age. I am 35. Does that in your mind make me old school? What about people in their late 20s- which is one of my friends who wanted to join a sports team. That you got to make shit up is why I find you so offensive.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:06 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • softballerforlife
      softballerforlife

      @D’OH, I am 32. I am saying old school as in those in their 50′s or older who paved the way when they were in their 20′s to throw those bricks and to stand in protest so that we have sites like queerty today and to those first softballers from San Francisco and New York who played in those first games that set the tone for what is now the Gay World Series. But quite simply I find you offensive about you is that you contradict yourself. You told speed sausage that if he wanted to make a point and be believed then do it without attacking. Take your own advice. I think it is sad and obvious that you are a radical. Your insistance on ONLY being with other gay people is scary. I couldn’t imagine my life without having many of the straight allies I have in my life. But I am not going to attack you for being the way you are. It may be sad, but its your right to feel that way.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • softballerforlife
      softballerforlife

      And by 50′s or Older guys, I wasn’t saying you were old. I just meant that alot of us should be thankful that we don’t have to fight as hard for equal rights because you guys started the fight and made it easier for us. So I hope I didn’t offend anyone in their 50′s or older.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Lanjier
      Lanjier

      The bottom line is that they removed a person due only to their sexuality. I could never do that if I managed them. Regardless of the consequences, I could never kick someone out for that reason, even if the organization felt that its identity have been reformulated. Gay people should never forget to be humble, and remember where they came from.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 1:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      The current lawsuit is basically the old “what comes around goes around” — NAGAAA is indeed a bunch of powerhungry, control-freak old-school cronies who are afraid of change and can’t let go. The organization absolutely rips off members with exhorbitant membership/team/series fees — witness the $500k surplus — is a total ripoff for most of its leagues’ member who do not go to world series because they don’t want to waste a week of vacation in a lovely city like Milwaukee or even Miami in midsummer.

      Related to the gay/non-gay rule, it’s always been a total joke — out of paranoia that some gay team (or bar owner sponsor) would enlist a bunch of ringers to win a friggin trophy. NAGAAA has looked the other way when the cheating didn’t involve trophies — both big (Lauderdale, LA etc) and smaller cities (Denver, Milwaukee) have been known cheaters either on ratings or allowing excessive straight players or minimum season (for series) eligibility requirements.

      The commissioners in these leagues wink wink wink allowed this to blatantly happen. In LA, they concocted a short spring or summer league schedule (10-12 games) — and played it in 1 or 2 weekends to produce eligibility for players who were flown in from all around the US (yes they were gay but this is cheating). Other cities, in fear of the hardline oldschool, power-hungry NAGAAA folks, felt the pressure to field a Series team — or face $1000s in sanctions, possible suspension, et al — so the commissioners looked the other way when a team of 40% straight players were shoved onto a Series roster (when those players played in about 20% of their teams regular season games). Some of the same commissioners even, to get around this rule, placed players on a fake league/team roster to indicate that all players were on the same team (NAGAAA even with ratings, doesnt allow all-star teams and require a minimum of 8 players be from the same league team).

      The non-gay lawsuit is just a continuation of what NAGAAA should have expected by its heavyhanded, playing-God management that has worked for years. Now it’s coming back to bite it in its treasury potentially…. awww how sad. The year is 2010 — it’s not the 1980s when NAGAAA was founded — and the organization needs to act like it.

      Inclusion, not exclusuion is what 2010 is about anyhow.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 2:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darryl!
      Darryl!

      Softballforlife, what is scary is your insistence that others should live according to how YOU feel. I don’t see how D’OH is continually being patient with you silly people so wrapped up in ideology that you lost any common sense. Aside from whining “that’s not nice”, NO ONE has intelligently expressed how all form of discrimination are wrong or unjust.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 2:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ewe
      ewe

      No reason to have a gay team if the players are not gay.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 3:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @Darryl!: What bothers me is the insistence that there is no good reason why gay people might want to solely be around other gay people for certain social activities given the society we live in. It is analogous to social conservatives, who argue they want a color blind society by ignoring race in a society that clearly has hang ups about race and so they argue against things like a black students association and claim those associations are “racist” despite the society we live in.

      Similarly here, they seem unwilling to acknowledge in a society that is so harmful toward gay people that there is a reason why gay people may want to have a safe space in which they don’t have to deal with other people’s sexual orientation.

      They pretend that the mere act of discriminating to address these need is somehow equivalent as one idiot writes to what the rest of society is doing rather than an means by which we achieve the necessary comfort. It is like they are trying to force on us this false idea what it means to be equal. There is no nuance. No compare and contrast to understand that in a society of limited resources and because we are human this is what is a part of the deal of trying to equalize our society. No, the mere act of noticing the differences is per se bad. This is what blind ideology gets you.

      Not where we are actually equal, but where we are forced as the minority group to accept that we can have no social space that is our own in which to develop and mean while in the larger society they deny us any place in the social space at all. This to me is not new. What bothers me most is the lack of self awareness to even know what they are doing or how this has placed on in other groups who have faced similar pressures from the majority.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 4:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      But what’s wrong with a team from a league in a city that is already diverse regrading sexual orientation, tolerance and inclusion? Going back to the mid-90s, many Bay Area teams had a larger-than-20% composition of non-gay players because those were their friends, their neighbors, their family members — and sexual orientation didn’t matter, inclusion (both ways gay to straight, straight — which all we want anyhow right?) mattered.

      When it came to tournaments, World Series, those teams couldn’t take their actual players because of the paranoid east-coast mentality. I mean this wasn’t cheating (then) and it (now) certainly isn’t if there are accurate ratings in place. It’s 2010, not 1985 or even 1969. The lawsuit should be a wake-up call to NAGAAA.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 4:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused: Once again describing someone who disagrees with you as being paranoid is why some of you are obviously full shit.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 5:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • neenee
      neenee

      Out or closeted. The NAGAAA,to me, by its very name is an OUT Organization for gay sports participation. If it’s true that they are ashamed of putting “gay” on anything related to them, then that’s hypocritical! Staying stagnant in the past with outdated rules will undermine the very core of why this organization was formed. Having gay friendly environments to go to and participate in an option for those who want to join. I say expand rules and allow “bi” in and leave definitions of criteria out. Teams should self police and if hetros blatantly bring girlfriends, then deal with it at that level. This organization needs to lead by example and be inclusive, not exclude. If these guys say they are bi, ok. If they say they are straight, then at team level, deal with that. Aren’t there “regular” leagues for hetros? I think the governing board needs fresh blood and voices of reason to repair its mission.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 5:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • softballerforlife
      softballerforlife

      @D’OH, This article is about SOFTBALL. Most of the replies are about Softball. You, however, have turned it around into an overall view of all of gay society. Are you a member of NAGAAA? I doubt you are but it is a fair question to ask. IF you started a club called the D’OHs and wrote your bylaws to state that your organization is for Gay and Lesbians only I would NOT fight you are your right to start this private club. Some of us replying ARE members of NAGAAA and we are writing to state that we don’t agree with the enforcement of the rule. Somehow in your misguided attempt to try and change our minds, you forget that our bylaws are already written and stated that we are an open organization without discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation with a special emphasis on gay athletes. IF our bylaws stated that we are a gay only organization and you were trying to convince we that this was okay I still wouldn’t agree with you but your arguement would have more standing in this forum. Instead of arguing about the current rule, you want all of us to agree that its okay to be GAY ONLY. I wouldn’t join a club like that BUT I wouldn’t argue with your right to create a club like that. Your arguement has no place here because no one is suggesting that we be a GAY ONLY organization. If that is something you would like then by all means please go and create a GAY ONLY league that exludes straights, bisexuals, hetero transgenders, etc. and I promise I won’t respond to any blogs created about your organization. Instead of picking a fight that you have no “iron in the fire” concerning, put your energy into creating this discriminatory softball league that you would like to see so badly.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 5:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @softballerforlife: The thesis of the Queerty article is found in its title:

      “If Bi Or Straight Baseball Players Want to Play in the Gay League, We Should Let Them”

      There is a reason why others are pointing out that I am using reason and common sense. That’s because I am responding to the premise of the article. Whereas you seem to be responding to your own agenda.

      This will be my last post. As one person wrote, I have tried to be patient with you in explaining the positions of others outside of yourself. It is clear, no matter, what you are not really interested in different perspectives. Only your own.

      Thus, why you will waste a lot of time and money fighting a court case that will go no where. As one laweyer once said to me , the worse thing that a lawyer can have is a fool for a client.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 5:45 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      @D’oh, The Magnificent: Huh how’s that. I just speak the facts as someone who was very involved with NAGAAAA on the periphery for years. As a gay man, I evolved and, as an organization, NAGAAA pretty much stayed stuck in its 1980s ways. Specific to this issue, the focus became on paranoia toward straight/bi participants vs. common-sense enforcement of a level-playing field for all.

      (And I say that as someone who played on a team that had 4 straight players against all rules, who barely played 1/3rd of the regular season also against all rules and who took away the opportunity to play at the Series from gay players who showed up every week — it was a no-win situation then because of the repercussions from blowing the whistle to myself personally and financial damage to my fellow league members in the future.)

      All I’m saying is that the lawsuit is an eye-opener to the fact that it is 2010 — things have mightily changed in the world and USA since the 80s or even 90s in relation to tolerance, diversity and sexual orientation.

      P.S. Furthermore, no offense to you softball diehards, do you really think a team of straights would blatantly strategize to win the Gay Softball World Series? Nope, it’s gay bar owners/team managers who crave to get ringers on their team for the trophy. The rest of the teams who have straight/bi players just have their friends or family or neighbors or co-workers who are gayfriendly and want to be a part of it. Enforce NAGAAA’s bleeping rating rules, and there is no issue — again in the Year 2010.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 5:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tommy
      Tommy

      Reading these comments reminds me of why I hate the gay community sometimes. Honestly, if you take away the Christian fundamentalists who are a small portion of straight people, most straight men are less judgmental and more accepting of differences than most gay men.
      The reason gay men are so pathological is because they are judged and condemned by their own.
      The fact that people on this very website whose opinion goes against the majority have their comments hidden says it all about the gay community.
      I’m gay because I’m attracted to other men, but I can never be what the gay community says I should be.
      I’d rather be friends with straight men honestly because they are less bitchy because they don’t constantly judge me for what I”m wearing, if I’m getting older, if I’m wearing the latest fashion. I don’t feel a safe space around other gay men because most of the time they rip me to shreds. Most of my straight friends just accept me the way I am.
      Just because two people both sleep with other guys doesn’t mean they have something in common.
      Why can’t be as gay men treat each other with compassion instead of being such evil bitchy queens tearing each other apart all the time?

      Apr 24, 2010 at 10:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      This whole thing illustrates the lunacy of building a club or a community on a sex act. It’s a phony unifying point. Many of the men in the community or club have very little in common with each other apart from wanting to get into each other’s pants.

      The gay community has become its own worst enemy.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 10:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tommy
      Tommy

      @Tommy:

      Thank you, Jason. Exactly how I feel.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      What I love is how the guys with the most issues with their sexual orientation use every post as an excuse to post the exact same comments pretending it is about gay men rather than how fucked up you are as individuals.

      And yes, I am talking to Jason and his sock puppet Tommy. You say the same thing in each thread.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @Tommy: No one is preventing you from hanging out with straight men right now. Yet, you are here on a gay blog bitching about gay people wanting to hang out with one another. That you are liar and probably a sock puppet is self evident from the very nature of the contradiction of whining about gay men wanting to congregate while you do what you whine others want to do. How fucked you must be.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tommy
      Tommy

      If we are a community, then why not exclude just the straight men, but not the bisexuals? But they want to exclude anyone who isn’t 100% gay, not just the straight guys! Makes no sense to me. What happened to GLBT? Why not change it to just G. Because clearly lesbians, bisexuals and transgenders are welcome in the community.

      Apr 24, 2010 at 11:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tommy
      Tommy

      @D’oh, The Magnificent:

      The tone of your comment with its disgusting use of profanity proves my point. I don’t want to hang out with just straight men. I want to hang out with anyone that’s cool, be it gay men, straight men, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people if they are nice decent human beings. I don’t want anyone excluded because of who they sleep with.
      I don’t want to hang out with bitchy queens like yourself.
      And I am very happy being gay. I think the insecure people are people like yourself who can only hang with other gay men. Do straight and bisexual people threaten you somehow because they are different than you?
      People always throw out this stuff about you being uncomfortable with your sexuality to discredit you when they disagree with your point of view.
      Suppose a bunch of straight men said we only want to hang out with other straight men and all gay men are excluded. You’d be the first to scream bloody murder.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 12:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      The posters before this kinda have it a bit wrong, no disrespect. The Series or tourneys or league play can be great ways for gay folks to meet others in a non-bar, non-on-the-prowl kinda way — and meet people from other areas and share different perspectives. Being that the gay community has traditionally been focused on bar more than anything, softball, choir, politics, (pick an interest) can be awesome ways of getting to know like-minded folks in similar situations. It has nothing to do with sex (I mean, there is this thing called the internet if you’re not into bars).

      That said, the archaic, stuck-in-time attitudes of the NAGAAA folks, despite growth in adding more leagues/cities, has been a reason folks like me (who’ve been to our share of Series and tournaments) have said “the hell with it.” And in a different atmosphere in recent years vs. when NAGAAA was the only choice, chosen to play in straight leagues for better comraderie or competition or environment (including rules) without the drama (gay-bi-straight bickering, blatant ratings cheating, expansion of Series to require 5 days taken off from work instead of 4, etc).

      Instead of being in constant denial and on the defensive, NAGAAA should be using this lawsuit as a means to take a good hard look at itself.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 12:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • onthemoney
      onthemoney

      @softballerforlife

      Lots of great information in your posts. As one commenter said, you’ve provided better info than all the news accounts combined. And I totally agree with your assessment that old-school thinking roles the roost at NAGAAA.

      One small point though: NAGAAA doesn’t have a half-million dolllars stashed away. Judging by the sober tone of your posts, you can tell you’re not just making the number up. But you are mistaken. If they have 10-20% of that in reserve, that would be a stretch.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 12:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Max the Communist
      Max the Communist

      That does it. I’m forming a bisexual-friendly only team. Anyone of any orientation or gender identity can join, they simply have to be respectful and come with an intention to contribute positively to the team. Disrespect towards people regarding their sexual orientation and/or gender expression will be grounds for disqualification. It will be an all gender, all races, all backgrounds team. We’ll all enjoy beer and bbq after every game.
      Play ball!

      Apr 25, 2010 at 1:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @Tommy: And yes, you, someone put down all gay men, is still here on gay site complaining about all gay men. As I said, if you didn’t want to hang out with gay men, and you find straight so much better, why are you here?

      Apr 25, 2010 at 1:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @Tommy: By the way, I still think you and the others are sock puppets. It just does not make much sense for people who claim to not want to hang out with gay people to specifically find this site , a gay site, to post here about not wanting to hang out with gay people. It does not pass the bullshit test. No one cares about this site except for gay people.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 1:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • softballerforlife
      softballerforlife

      @D’oh, please be a man of your word and stop posting. Especially if you are going to post hateful and irresponsible rhetoric which has no place in an educated discussion amongst men and women who may be truly invested in the outcome of this discussion. We, the members of NAGAAA, will be affected by this lawsuit should it go further because it has a possibility of financially ruining our league because our OLD SCHOOL board of directors would rather stick their chest out and say “we are not budging” on this antiquated stance of limited straight and bi players.

      @onthemoney, thanks for pointing out my misquote. I meant to say an anuual operating budget of nearly half a million AND I also incorrectly stated that the league is composed of 5 thousand members instead of anywhere from 8 to 10 thousand members.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 3:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darryl!
      Darryl! [Different person #1 using similar name]

      LOL@Post 52. How about some integrity? Your very first post (32), while mentioning the politics specific to NAGAAA, contained obvious promotion of a philosophy. So don’t pretend similar kinds of responses are off-topic.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 3:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • softballerforlife
      softballerforlife

      Darryl why don’t you and D’oh create a sock puppet club for straights only so you can take turns shoving your hands up each others butts. That is, if you are not the same person, posting under two seperate user names. Seems like you two agree with each other on everything right after the other posts their cynical and self loathing statements. You both hate being Gay so much that you have to only be with your own kind to feel loved. Sad is that life.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 3:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darryl!
      Darryl! [Different person #1 using similar name]

      I assume you are not even trying to make sense anymore? Fact is, you still display no integrity in thought. Earlier you claim that you would not argue against the right of people to form an exclusionary club. Yet, here you are ten years into an organizations whose rules you were aware of from the beginning, but want to change because you think you are enlightened now. The arguments about the rules’ inappropriateness in modern times could have validly applied thirty years ago. Why don’t you follow your own advice, and form your own “everyone welcome” softball club if you don’t like the NAGAAA? They may indeed enforce the rules arbitrarily, but that’s a possibility with any rule. Bottom line though is that you knew about the rule.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 5:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      @softballerforlife:

      Agree wholeheartedly about the old school BOD being more interested in the fight and its own pride. Shame is, those folks need to take a good hard look at — and research with the even older members — at why NAGAAA was founded in the first place in the late 70s. I mean, the info is kinda in NAGAAA’s own mission statement.

      The whole idea was to give gay folks a way of socializing and competing in softball — and basically being protected from evil, discriminatory, homophobe society and also being included. Officially including non-gay folks in 2010, with the way the world has changed, should make sense — i.e. no gay league is about to get overrun by gazillions of straight teams with a quest to be “Gay Softball Champs.” Besides, most lawsuits do reflect “community standards” — San Francisco (where the players are from) and Seattle (Series venue) are extremely gay-friendly cities.

      Further for NAGAAA to prove that the non-gay rule is based on the argument of inclusiveness to the gay community, please think again. I can tell you of at least a few leagues who refuse to place interested new players (to the extent of refusing player fees). They instead direct those those players to essentially beg to all the league team managers (via email, website or sign-ups) for a roster spot — i.e., the managers can just refuse the prospective player, who might even be new to town, and the league board refuses to intervene. Those of you in the inclusive leagues (and that’s 90%+) have no idea that your fellow member leagues are acting in this uninclusive way. Technically, by the NAGAAA non-gay uninclusive standards, the reverse should be in place regarding inclusiveness for gay players — but it isn’t across the board (hence there goes another NAGAAA premise that could be used in its lawsuit defense).

      I’m just saying….

      Apr 25, 2010 at 10:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      @softballerforlife:

      Oooh, this got juicy!

      Hey dude, YOU are the one on a gay site. Why post here then? Why don’t you and your pals try and get Queerty to post straight people news as well?

      Commenters?

      Be equal opps and consistent about your rules please.

      By your logics, everything should be straight friendly and nothing should only be for gays.

      Why don’t you tell that to the Trevor Poject? Or GLAAD? Or HRC?

      Actually, why all the hate on Obama Queerty and some commenting folk if we’re all now enlightened and there is no such thing as homophobia? If really it’s just a bunch of wet f*gs being pansies? Like a poster said above?

      Lol, M Gallagher and her cronies would LOVE this thread!

      Apr 25, 2010 at 10:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • philly baller
      philly baller

      RE: SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      Thanks for your post. I swear you must live in Philly! I was a member of the Philly league for over 20 yrs. I left a few years ago for basically the reasons you mentioned. It just was not fun anymore. The league revolved around NAGAAA and ratings and lived their life and schedule around tournaments and feeding money to NAGAAA.

      I back up all of your posts 100%, as everything I read hit close to home. You arent blowing smoke. You really are telling the facts.

      Horror stories abound. I’d love to be able to talk to you by email and compare some war stories.

      Thanks!

      Apr 25, 2010 at 1:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      @philly baller: Thanks, Philly, I really mean my perspective candidly and with no malice, and just think that sometimes when under criticism people/organizations can’t be objective to their shortcomings. To answer your question, nope, I wasn’t involved in your old league, but did make an, um, mid-August 1993 weeklong visit and very occasionally played against Philly teams in random tourneys.

      As far as email, I’m kinda paranoid providing it here — I know how potentially vengeful the NAGAAA folks have historically been toward folks who even respectfully disagree (see how long it took to welcome the MIST cities). Would be interesting comparing stories et al (and I’d bet, a lot of them quite positive and good stores re: the past impact of NAGAAA).

      Apr 25, 2010 at 2:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jacques
      Jacques

      @Lamar: Absolutely! That’s why I support the Boy Scouts. They have an absolute right to keep queers out.

      Rock on, Brotha!

      Apr 25, 2010 at 3:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jacques
      Jacques

      @TiredOldQueen@Queerty: Absolutely. Everyone knows actual gay men can’t play softball as well as straight guys.

      Why bother pretending?

      Apr 25, 2010 at 3:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @Jacques: so you are of the view that what straight society does to exclude is the same as what a gay group trying to address the fact that they are being excluded by straight society does are equivalent?

      As I said of many of you before, you are at best lacking nuance, but I will add that like most conservatives (which is what you are trying to masquerade as “gay’) you are immature.

      The ideas behind preventing discrimination are about its impact to the entire class in the greater society. If you can show me that gays being a llowed to play base ball together where they can learn to become comfortable in their sexual orientation has the same impact as gays being bashed if they are on a straight team and their sexuality is found out, or a lack of marriage equality or jobs being denied, etc, then I will buy your argument over equivalence. If not, then I am going to call you on your lack of nuance.

      Oh, and by the way, the Boy Scouts under the law are allowed as a private organization to deny membership to whomever they want. The idea that you or I don’t l ike it is irrelevant to the concept of free association. If we mean to policy free association, then let’s go in all the way. Let’s make sure, since you are fund of hyperbole, that a group for women breast cancer survivors includes men who want to see naked boobies. Let’s require any organization that has any discrimination at all to be required to accept all other members. Let’s require a group about evolutionary bioloty be required to accept papers from a group that wants to argue that actually evolution didn’t happen because the Bible says it didn’t happen. And on and on and on. That’s the logic of your statement if you don’t want any discrimination. Then that means we can’t in any circumstance ever differentiate into groups of any kind.

      How can we? Since all differentiation is per se wrong. That’s what a lack of nuance gets you.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 7:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Yeah, they are clearly ideologues (if it is a they rather than all just Jason and a few others like DR) who every thing tries to enforce some simple minded rules on everyone else without regard to there being in any attempt a nuance. And you are right, it is odd for a writer at Queerty, a site that discriminates in favor of gay content, to be whining about another organization excluding straights. But, no one says everyone is logical.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 7:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • missanthrope
      missanthrope

      as a bisexual woman I just have to say that if true this story disgusts me. It’s 2010 people, get with it.

      Apr 25, 2010 at 11:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      @missanthrope: I have to say I don’t give shit what you think other than to tell you that I don’t give a shit what you think. Like everyone else posting such comments, the fact you can have the where with all the find a gay site that is itself exclusive of others to complain about exclusivity says a lot about just how fake some of you are.

      Apr 26, 2010 at 2:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • jason
      jason

      My view is that the gay community has become a self-segregating cult like the Waco cult led by David Koresh. The parallels are eerie.

      A lot of gay men WANT to be segregated. A lot of gay men WANT to be discriminated against. It enables them to play the victim card, which in turn they exploit to discriminate against others.

      Apr 26, 2010 at 5:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      @D’oh, The Magnificent: The self-righteousness and exclusitivity that no one else can have a drastically differing viewpoint is quite amusing.

      Fact is, many folks (including gay me) found out about this lawsuit on mainstream websites. CNN, Fox News, et al — not Outsports, not Queerty, not Planet Out. Personally I rolled my eyes as I have been away from NAGAAA for awhile, and knew the the consequences of such vulgar (querying protested potential non-gay players about their graphic sexual interests) interrogation. I just hoped it would never ever happen.

      But viewpoints, like Missanthrope’s, do represent openminded mainstream folks’ attitudes when they hear of the lawsuit points/actions. They “google” it further to find out more details so that they’re fully informed — something doesn’t seem to add up — and find sites/discussions like this.

      And worse to all of us, NAGAAA’a hardline enforcement of its archaic rules — well-intentioned in a totally homophobe 70s/80s-into-90s society — are an embarrassment to all of us as gay men and women.

      Apr 26, 2010 at 10:22 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • D'oh, The Magnificent
      D'oh, The Magnificent

      Yeah, the gay community is “self segregating” in the way Jim Crow era blacks were self segregating rather than trying to address a system of legalized discrimination against them. I don’t know what fantasy world you live in, but clearly its a dangerous one to the safety of gay people trying to survive.

      Apr 26, 2010 at 1:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darryl!
      Darryl! [Different person #2 using similar name]

      “And worse to all of us, NAGAAA’a hardline enforcement of its archaic rules — well-intentioned in a totally homophobe 70s/80s-into-90s society — are an embarrassment to all of us as gay men and women”.

      You don’t speak for me. They can enforce this rule as they please. Don’t like it? Don’t join!!! It’s that damn simple. That you think it’s out of context, is IRRELEVANT!!

      Jason, my view is that there has been a resurgence of the whiny “you must like me and accept me like my very own mother would, not just respect my right to equal opportunity”, element among ultra-liberals, just this time it’s focused on bisexuals.

      I would hope there are bisexuals who see this BS for what it is, just like I saw the Boys Scouts nonsense for what it was, as well as this business of gays joining religious organizations, then bitching about being discriminated against. Yes, it’s 2010, that means it’s time to act like an adult.

      Apr 26, 2010 at 3:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      @Darryl!: Right, I don’t speak for you, I speak for me.

      But, c’mon, how do you really determine who is gay, who is bi, and who is straight — that is what NAGAAA is being called on via the lawsuit (in part because of how graphic/intrusive its question of these 3 players was regarding their sexual preferences, positions, habits).

      And heck yes, I did walk away from this organization after having been a part of it for years — seeing its vast potential conflicted with its stuck-in-in-the-past attitudes all the while the real issue was cheating so some bar owner and/or “victim”ized jock wannabes could claim a trophy for validation. I mean, the whole lawsuit came about because an Atlanta team/league was unable to protest based on inaccurate player ratings, were beaten fairly on the field, and instead played the sore loser card regarding the 3 players’ sexuality. Ironic because the outgoing NAGAAA commissioner/board member at the time was from Atlanta and NAGAAA had long turned a blind eye to outright cheating — such as when LA would play 8-10 game “seasons” over a weekend or so, so a rich bar owner could fly in 10-15 elite players from around the country to be eligible.

      That’s the perspective that most of you don’t realize when you just see the gay/non-gay line in the sand. Personally I believe, given NAGAAA’s history re other issues specific to affecting competition aka an even playing field (remember the 3 were bounced AFTER their team won a trophy and their skill level was not protested), it is absolute hypocrisy. I’m not suggesting that you agree or disagree with me, nor do I judge you or want to change your minds. But as the Philly guy can attest, the context of this whole situation is kind of unbelievable.

      Apr 26, 2010 at 10:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • softballerforlife
      softballerforlife

      @PhillyBaller The Commissioner of the Philly league plays on a team with more than two straight players so he should be against having this rule all together. I don’t know why he would support such a thing.

      Apr 27, 2010 at 1:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      This OUTSPORTS post is pretty interesting and apt..

      http://outsports.com/jocktalkblog/2010/04/20/nclr-sues-nagaaa/

      Apr 28, 2010 at 4:52 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
      John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)

      Apt Comment..from OUTSPORTS commenter-http://outsports.com/jocktalkblog/2010/04/20/nclr-sues-nagaaa/

      “softballer
      on Apr 22nd, 2010 at 3:07 PM

      For those of you who think it is safe to play ball in the straight leagues being gay…..

      Please join me in a tournament in South Georgia with a bunch of chew spitting rednecks ready to beat you with a fu…bat at the mere notion that they just got beat by a bunch of “fags.”

      Or perhaps we can head on down to South Florida where the mere notion of you being a gay team will get your pitcher killed by ropes being hit up the middle with the intention of hurting them by the Latin machismo teams.

      Or perhaps you can come out and play in a gangster tournament where you have to be escorted by the police to your car because you are gay.

      The ignorance on the subject makes me not want to respond anymore. Stop crying fowl…..minorities should be protected.

      And for those saying we have no rules and it has not been taken over. Teams can not go to the World Series with that kind of team……therefore teams do not add too many straight guys….otherwise they can not go to the Series which is the goal of all teams during the year. You drop this rule and the competition of winning will take over and it is only a matter of time before the Gay league is no longer a Gay league where people find comfort.

      As was said before……these guys were not Bi—-it had nothing to do with race…..they lied…..and got caught. The rule is there for protection and that is a REALITY.

      As AtlantaA said…there are rules in all different kinds of leagues that protect people….40 and over…50 and over to protect their players from unfair competition pools and dangers. There is nothing wrong with having ONE that protects gay people.

      They knew the rules. They lied and cheated. Others did not. You defend them….it shows your lack of integrity.”

      Apr 28, 2010 at 5:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      I’d honestly be interested in hearing from guys who have played in straight leagues on a gay team, as an openly gay man or non-sexual (ie it wasn’t an issue per se). Heck besides multiple gay Series and tourneys, I’ve played in all of the above and even on a straight coed (annoying because the women are sizing up the guys for Mr Right more than vice versa ha ha).

      Regarding the dangers of no gay insulation, yeah it makes sense. But I’ve been on a gay team in a straight league where it didn’t matter and things were cool (and that was almost 20 years ago). However some home fields were in crappy ‘hoods — and I can tell you how fast-forward BOTH us and our opponent got after hearing one of the thugs from the projects yelp the following on the basketball court next to our field: “Bleep you, I’m going home and getting my gun.” The same coulda happened to our straight coed team had we been in the wrong part of time — regarding being vulnerable to daners. Point i you avoid situations and use common sense, right?

      Newsflash — the SF players in-question weren’t hitting balls intentionally up the middle to injure the pitcher, they weren’t spewing gay slurs, they weren’t trying to grope the opponent’s female player(s). They weren’t protested because of their abilities/ratings.

      What is in question is their sexuality — with some very graphic interrogation — AFTER they player numerous Series games and won a championship against a sore-loser team/league. The latter of which probably saw D2 in action and was too chicken-bleep to stand up to its convictions — until it was beaten fair-and-square on the field. Isn’t something wrong with that — just a bit in the Year 2010?

      PS To the “straights/bi’s give gay teams a bigger edge because they have 90-95% of the male population to recruit from:”
      What is the difference between that and a gay league that cooks its Series team roster as a league collaborative (using players from 5+ teams just to fill out a 10-person roster) team based on who can attend the Series? For those of you who do not know, NAGAAA’s World Series rule has been hard-and-fast that teams MUST be comprised of at least 8 (I believe) players from the original team plus up to 4 pick-up players from other league teams. MANY cities have cheated around this rule, again in fear of big ole bad NAGAAA’s old-schoolers threatening 4-figure fines, league suspensions et al if a city could not field a team in a given World Series (even for valid reasons and even from a smaller league with 3-5 teams).

      Apr 28, 2010 at 9:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Markus
      Markus

      @John from England(used to be just John but there are other John’s): Related to the extreme South Florida or South Georgia examples in the Outsports post, have you noticed anything like that in a gay-sponsored tournament where mixed (gay teams with bi/straight players) teams participated? Nope, because those teams were more scrutinized and internally policed if any conduct got out of hand (and also because those players typically are gay-friendly relatives, friends etc).

      Further, would you call it a hate crime and cry “victim” — if you as a gay man got mugged after wandering around at 3-4 am in a known redlight district or crime neighborhood or drug-dealing area? Wouldn’t the responsibility be on you to not put yourself in situations like that? I mean, rural supposedly eveil redneck South Georgia does not have a NAGAAA league nor will it ever host a World Series.

      I’ve been reading the verball sparring on Outsports and this site with great interest, trying to sort out whether there is a real issue or whether the issue is some well-intentioned folks’ fear of change/unknown.

      Apr 29, 2010 at 9:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • softballerforlife
      softballerforlife [Different person #1 using similar name]

      One of the questions asked by a Delegate from Virginia/MidAtlantic “if you walk into the Eagle and piss at the stall, do you look at the guy next to you’s cock”? One of the questions asked by a Delegate from Orlando, “Do you suck cock or eat pussy”? One of the questions asked by a Delegate from Houston “Are you a top or a bottom”. One of the questions asked by a Delegate from Atlanta “Do you and your wife enjoy sex with other men together”?

      I’m sorry, I know the rules and they knew the rules but these questions should never have been asked. Pretty soon NAGAAA is going to become like the state of Arizona, you are going to have to carry around a picture of you engaged in a SAME SEX act to be declared “gay enough” To the Atlanta Venom player, I agree with you that they knew the rules before hand and should not have broken them BUT the only way that Rosa Parks could be the hero she was today would be to have said yes I know the rule but I broke it because it is an unfair rule. I am not saying that you are wrong but I do think that this rule has had its time. We of the younger generation forget all the gay men and women who came before us and created this league so that we would have a place to play. It was through all of their hard work and sacrifice that we are now ABLE to play without the fear of being attacked and bombarded with hateful slurs and threats. NAGAAA expects 174 teams to be at the Gay World Series in Columbus. If each of these teams had 4 straight players that would be about 750 straight (most likely gay friendly) players out of nearly 7000 athletes, friends and family. I really don’t think that any of these 750 atheletes would dare say a hurtful, homophobic, or anti gay slur at an event so obviously outnumbered and even if one or two did, I bet the other 748 straight players would be one of the first ones to say “dude you picked the wrong place to do this and get ready for an ass whoopin”. The rule was necessary at one time but it is outdated. NAGAAA should not be penalized for following the rule as stated but they should rethink the rule going forward and end it. That being said, if NAGAAA drops the rule I would hope that these three men would be okay with an apology and maybe some money to reimburse them for their travel expenses.

      Apr 30, 2010 at 6:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused
      SomeoneWhoKnows&isAmused

      @softballerforlife: Well said, you couldn’t have framed it better in the right context. Well-intentioned rule that served its purpose — yet unenforceable unless vulgarity is the degree of interrogation dignity, tolerance and respect that is desired. In the NFL, a team is under huge criticism for its similar interrogation of a top draft prospect about his family background — to the extreme that he was asked “was your mother a prostitute?”

      Besides on the softball issue, just thinking aloud, if the straight players were there all Series with family/strollers et al, aren’t there about 8-10 games that must be played before a champion is crowned? So the Atlanta team waited until it was defeated — fairly in a competitive way based on no ratings challenges — to be the “only” protest? I mean, throw ‘em the hell out of the Series after the 1st/2nd round-robin game if the integrity/rule is so important, right?

      Like softballerforlife, I just hope NAGAAA takes a step back — and both congratulates itself for its accomplishments over the past 30+ years and also re-evaluates the sensibility of a previously needed/well-intentioned rule that is a “no win” dignitywise regarding its future enforcement. Hopefully a “win win” comes out of this, eh?

      Apr 30, 2010 at 9:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CT
      CT

      I don’t see why this lawsuit went forward.

      Certainly it seems to me that if the Boy Scouts of America have a legal right to exclude gays, that the NAGAAA has a legal right to exclude straights. And certainly it seems to me that there is nothing inherently wrong with people choosing who to associate with on any basis.

      On a social level, however, I have to wonder. Does this policy functionally exclude bisexuals who are currently in heterosexual relationships from participating? If so, why not at least make that rule clear in the rule book? Or is it the position of the NAGAAA that bisexuals don’t exist or are straight? I ask because I do know bisexuals who are in heterosexual marriages and who have kids.

      Jun 4, 2011 at 2:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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