What I’m trying to say is if polygamy is not allowed in America and we have not forced you to do that for the sake of human rights…so, if other countries allowed polygamy, and we say you have to allow polygamy for the sake of human rights, we are not doing fair to your situation in America. So, it’s the same thing with our country. Homosexuality is a taboo in Malawi.
—Leckford Mwanza Thotho, Malawi’s information minister, noting the government is pleased with the conviction of Tiwonge Chimbalanga and Steven Monjeza, and that Malawi has taboos it doesn’t accept just like Western world [via]
jimstoic
There’s a big difference between the government recognizing a legal form of relationship and the government not persecuting people who have that form of relationship. While the U.S. doesn’t permit marrying multiple people at the same time, at least legally, it does permit having relationships with as many consenting adults as one chooses. The international community is not asking Malawi to formally recognize gay marriage (which would be more like asking the U.S. to recognize polygamous marriages). Rather, it is asking that people who have same-sex relationships not be persecuted, just like people who have relationships with multiple consenting adult partners in the U.S. are not persecuted by the government.
Cam
Wow, that is the level of intelligence and critical thought coming out of that govt? So by their logic, Saudi Arabia shouldn’t accept homosexuality because the U.S. doesn’t make it legal for men to beat their wives and sell their pre-teen daughters in marriage.
Brandon
@ Cam. Polygamy does not = wife beating anymore than homosexuality = pedophilia. Polygamous relationships have probably been around almost as long as homosexuality, so the guy does have a point. If we accept homosexuality why shouldn’t we accept polygamy between consenting adults?
Cam
No. 3 · Brandon
@ Cam. Polygamy does not = wife beating anymore than homosexuality = pedophilia. Polygamous relationships have probably been around almost as long as homosexuality, so the guy does have a point. If we accept homosexuality why shouldn’t we accept polygamy between consenting adults?
__________________
Brandon, please show me any society where polygomy officially exists where it is not an imbalanced relationship. As far as it “Existing” for as long as homosexuality. Rememind me, when did they discover the Polygomous gene? Slavery and Human sacrifice have been around for quite a while too. Length of existence has nothing to do with whether or not something is functional, or should be allowed in society today.
Lamar
Having 6 wives or 7 husbands isn’t a basic human right, the right to pursue a relationship whether same sex or opposite sex is.
wannabegay2
What this guy did is called a SOPHISM, a fake/wrong syllogism which doesn’t make sense. So he should go back to school. I’ve read the news about the Malawi couple today in NY Times and I almost cried. So, so, so sad. And no one does (cannot do) anything.
naya
The statements these men released were so brave and so beautiful.
Question, in all of the countries that allow polygamy, is at all common or heard of, for a woman to take multiple husbands
? Or is this a right they reserve for men?
JamesStone
I live in a land where gay people are discriminated against too. Where I live in most rural parts of my land it is perfectly acceptable to fire someone for being gay. There is no law here against that. My partner and I have been together for nearly 20 years yet a year and a half ago he was nearly kicked out of my hospital room after my appendix burst because he was not “family.” He had to lie and say he was my “father.” As far as other rights are concerned..our health insurance rates are double compared to straight couples. And..God forbid..when one of us dies..there is a “death tax” in my land. The person that is the recipient of your estate must pay a hefty tax for the inheritance. However, if you are legally married..the tax is forgiven. You might ask what land I live in. Let me tell you..the land is called “Ohio.”
Killa
The western world should listen to that statement and leave their ass alone. Those people themselves have to rise up in that country to stop this prosecution. We have enough trash to deal with in our western society. And to the gay couple who got caught. They should of figured out how to travel to europe to get some freedom.
thousandfold
I’m with Brandon on this one. Why not allow several consulting adults to decide to enter into a legally recognized relationship?
Maybe there are convincing reasons, but I haven’t heard any, just a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of polygamy: there must be something wrong with it, because it’s not the norm, so let’s say that the something wrong with it is it encourages abuse of women. Say what? Isn’t that the same problem bigots have with gay marriage: there must be something wrong with it, because it’s not the norm, so let’s say that the something wrong with it is it encourages the dissolution of the traditional familial bonds which support society.
When it comes down to it, we’re talking about fully functioning adults making free choices about their own lives, so I see no reason to be against polygamy. I think if we’d accept this, we’d no longer allow anti-gay marriage activists to frame the debate in terms of “if gay marriage, then why not polygamy?”
I’m not advocating we rally behind legalizing polygamy, just that we not be intellectually dishonest by refusing to admit that it is as valid a choice as marrying a person of the same gender.
thousandfold
@naya: google ‘polyandry’
Brandon
@Cam:
There has been plenty of research that shows men are designed to be with multiple partners. No one has found a gay gene. You sound just like the people who are demonizing gay marriage by comparing it to extreme behavior that is in now way connected. Now you have gone from comparing Polygamy to wife-beating and child-brides to slavery and human torture without any basis. How may Polygamous relationships have you observed or have you learned everything about it from T.V. shows about fringe Mormon groups? Any relationship between consenting adults should be left up to the people who want to participate in them. There are plenty of traditional hetero relationships that are quite imbalanced as well.
Don’t you see that a sentence like this “Length of existence has nothing to do with whether or not something is functional, or should be allowed in society today.” Represents everything that anti-gay Marriage advocates use against us? How is that kind of thinking wrong when used against us but ok when used against others and the way they choose to love?
Phoebe K
I did research on polyandry (women having multiple husbands) in college. It is very rare, not allowed in Islam, and found mostly in areas where men must spend large amounts of time away from home although I think it has been practiced in other cultures.
I am a lesbian, married in Massachusetts and would not choose any polyamorous relationship but I have no problem with polygamy or polyandry being legal in the US. Polygamy is certainly Biblical and could be argued for using the Old Testament although the conservatives _never_ use scripture for that purpose.
gaylib
the big difference is that Malawi doesn’t send billions of dollars in aid to the US. If Malawi wants to be a savage, barbaric, backwards place, let them do it on their own dime, not my tax dollars.
Lamar
I don’t see the problem with polygamy, the logic against it seems to be the very same logic used against gay marriage: it isn’t traditional and the majority of people aren’t polygamous so why cater for them how would it hurt anyone.
Cam
No. 12 · Brandon said…
@Cam:
There has been plenty of research that shows men are designed to be with multiple partners. No one has found a gay gene.
((Actually Brandon, they have found physicial differences in the brains of gays and straits))
You sound just like the people who are demonizing gay marriage by comparing it to extreme behavior that is in now way connected. Now you have gone from comparing Polygamy to wife-beating and child-brides to slavery and human torture without any basis. How may Polygamous relationships have you observed or have you learned everything about it from T.V. shows about fringe Mormon groups?
((All I did Brandon was ask you to name an example of a society where polygomy was practiced where it did NOT exibit an inbalance of power))
Any relationship between consenting adults should be left up to the people who want to participate in them. There are plenty of traditional hetero relationships that are quite imbalanced as well.
((Key word being concensual, please let me know in which society the wives have a choice and choose to be the third or forth wife for reasons other than they have no voice in society except through their husbands))
Don’t you see that a sentence like this “Length of existence has nothing to do with whether or not something is functional, or should be allowed in society today.” Represents everything that anti-gay Marriage advocates use against us? How is that kind of thinking wrong when used against us but ok when used against others and the way they choose to love?
((Brandon, you used as your backing for polygomey your assurance that it had been around probably as long as homosexuality, when I replied that human sacrifice had been around a long time, now you are saying that length of time in existance should NOT be used as a basis for acceptance. You just completely went against your point from your first point.))
Theodore
I spend a lot of time around polyamorous people, who would totally choose to get married to each other some of the time, in triads or other more complicated marriages if they could. I know a lot of FFM triads, and folks who live in basically what you might think of as like a small commune, where there are four or five people in an existent love structure. And some of them would love to have legal marriage, so that their kids and estates could be more easily taken care of.
As a gay guy, I would imagine that this would not be that hard to conjure up. This world is the leather world.
Anyway, I wanted to point something out about the coverage of the folks in Malawi.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/world/africa/21malawi.html
In the NY Times article, one of the people in this couple is mentioned as thinking of themselves as a women, and as having looked forward to dressing as a bride for the wedding. In photos, one of the people in the couple is wearing a skirt, and one pants, but I don’t know what that means in Malawi as clearly as I do in the US. This makes me think that all of this talk about “gay marriage” is a little off, though. This was and wasn’t about gayness.
DNY
http://brainwashed.com/daniel/Malawi-Realness.gif
Brandon
@Cam:
1. You are referring to a difference in the chemical and physical make up of the Brain. Once again, no one has discovered a gay gene.
2. Like I said, your view of polygamous relationships does not seem to be based on research or real life observations. If defies all a logic to assume that every polygamous relationship is inherently imbalanced. Polygamy is practiced right here in the United States from families in Utah to communes in California where all partners choose to enter the relationship completely of their own volition. You can look back on the 60’s and see plenty of examples during the Free Love Movement of women with feminist ideals choosing to be in polygamous relationships, which, had nothing to do with being oppressed.
3. You’re clearly getting confused. Nowhere have I said that, “length of time in existance should NOT be used as a basis for acceptance.” You are the only one who has said that. I’ve in noway contradicted myself.
Cam
No. 19 · Brandon
@Cam:
Brandon said..1. You are referring to a difference in the chemical and physical make up of the Brain. Once again, no one has discovered a gay gene.
((Siiigh, ok Brandon, we’re going to play this game? Where you avoid your origional point by nitpicking…ok, well “”Gay men and straight women have, on average, equally proportioned brain hemispheres. Lesbian women and straight men have, on average, slightly larger right brain hemispheres. The VIP SCN nucleus of the hypothalamus is larger in men than in women, and larger in gay men than in heterosexual men. NO Physicial differences have been found in people involved in Polygomous relationships. Your origional statement was that since Polygomy has been around nearly as long as homosexuality why not allow it. I was pointing out somewhat pithy that there is no polygomous gene, meaning that polygomous relationships are not in existance at birth, while there have been numerous physical and chemical differences found in gay men and lesbians.))
Brandon SAid…2. Like I said, your view of polygamous relationships does not seem to be based on research or real life observations. If defies all a logic to assume that every polygamous relationship is inherently imbalanced. Polygamy is practiced right here in the United States from families in Utah to communes in California where all partners choose to enter the relationship completely of their own volition. You can look back on the 60’s and see plenty of examples during the Free Love Movement of women with feminist ideals choosing to be in polygamous relationships, which, had nothing to do with being oppressed.
((Yes, it does defy logic to assume that ALL polygomous relationships are unbalanced, however the ones that are not do not change the fact that the majority of them are. Again, I asked you to point out any society where polygomy is the norm, where the relationship is among Equals. As for you useing the “Families” in Utah. Would those be the families on compounds where several people have recently been arrested and jailed for forcing incestuour marriages and having underaged girls married? Where entire generations of teenaged boys are kicked out on the streets to fend for themselves so that there was no competition for the older men with the young girls? Are you really using THOSE compounds as the basis that Polygomy is great? Also, remember, in the compounds like the ones in Utah and Az. The leader or prophit, can reassign wives at any time if he feels that the husband has been disloyal. So again, that is your backing that polygomous relationships are concensual?? I didn’t even go into the Polygomy practiced in the middle east, where a man can have multiple wives, and completely divorce one at any moment, not have to pay her any child support, there is no community property she is kicked out with the clothes on her back and whatever jewlery she is wearing and has no custody rights with children. Once again, are these polygomous relationships consensual? Because they are the vast majority of polygomy as it is practiced today.
Estraven
SEVERAL gay genes have been found, and one of them is for both homo- and bisexual men, plus some biological factors such as being the youngest son in a family with many boys. The genes for MtF and FtM transsexuality have also been found, and I believe it is just a matter of time before the gene(s) for bisexuality and Lesbianism in women are found.
There are many polyamorous people in the US, and in the polyamorous community a woman is free to have many male partners. I know some poly people, and they tell me things like that when they were little girls, their Barbie dolls always married two Kens. Anecdotal, but makes me wonder if being poly isn’t innate as well.
Finally, I have been told that Tiwonge is a transwoman. I’m not sure if Steven is straight or bisexual or what his orientation is, but I hear that the trans community is very annoyed at this being considered a gay marriage.
gilber
as a biophysicist and pharmacologist with yeaaaaars of studying the mechanisms of opposite vs equal organic attraction, i highly though that they will ever find a “gay” gene, however a hermaphroditic gene both for cross-genderism(transexuals) and cross-sexualism (“heterosexuality) is very likely to exist.to begin with, heterosexuality per se, as a physical entity doesn’t exist, it should actually be called hetero-homosexuality, since it is a derivation and a twist of MONO-sexuality. Monosexuality(or homosexuality) can occur under any conditions even in isolation whereas pseudo-homoselity just can’t. Many definitions have been twisted by psephologists and even philosophers in order to not explain the physical meaning of a sexually inverted couple(anti-couple) and a sexually straight couple according to an actual physical and mathematical model and understanding.