The gay-oriented Joy Metropolitan Community Church in Orlando, founded in 1979, sees about 250 people regularly attend its Sunday mass. Few of them are young people! Which means if it wants to live longer than most newspapers, it’s gonna have to get the youngins. But how?
With less than 10 percent of parishioners in their 20s and 30s, Joy Metropolitan faces the same fate as any gay-backed institution that made sense and thrived just a couple decades ago. But young gays today, with their iPhones and Facebook comings out, don’t need a gay-specific church to find god, the Orlando Sentinel reports. Or something.
Moreover, gay churches don’t have the built-in ability to attract families with children, teenagers with youth programs, and young people with church services like rock concerts. There are no “crying rooms” for babies at Joy MCC or Sunday-school classrooms or a day-care center during the week.
“Joy MCC is going to have to change and adapt or they are not going to be around,” said Randy Stephens, executive director of Orlando’s Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender Community Center of Central Florida. Young people are more fluid about their sexuality and less defined by their sexual orientation, Stephens said. They neither need nor crave the sanctuary that the gay church provided previous generations.
“What I’m finding is they don’t want to go to a church where they are segregated by their sexuality,” said the Rev. Jenn Stiles Williams, who has about 50 young gays in her contemporary service at St. Luke’s United Methodist Church in Orlando. “Their relationship with God is first, but they want a church where they can be who they are and not have to hide it.”
Maybe if they put the Bible on iPads and slipped ’em in the back of the pews? Just be sure to turn the volume down when you multi-task over to Grindr, everyone.
Kurt
During MCC’s formative years, it was hard to find a Trinitarian Christian church that welcomed and affirmed open gays. Now, they are legion. Even in more conservative denominations, there are parishes and congregations that gays are welcome. The gay Catholic group, Dignity, suffers from this same decline for the same reasons.
Paul in Canada
Is NOM aware of gay-accepting churches? Oh my!
rodrigo
Uhm I live in Orlando and I hadn’t even heard that this church existed! It sounds pretty neat though. Maybe to attract the younger crowd (and other besides gays) they should use the slogan “God loved you regardless of your sexual orientation”.
REBELComx
It’s not just the gay churches with this phenomenon, it’s all churches. Younger generations are becoming less and less interested in church and organized religion in general.
Tallskin
My first reaction upon reading this was to think GREAT, even in the USA the land of religious nutters, (the USA a mirror image of the nutters in the islamic world), religion is dying and young gays feel no need to attend church.
As karl marx said about religion: “Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”
AS the oppression of gays eases and the goal of equality seems attainable young gays see no need for this religious baloney.
AND the excellent news is that this christmas here in the UK, for perhaps the first time ever, Britain is a majority non-religious nation! A result. Praise be to the lord!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/24/religion-respecting-the-minority
Lakas
by the looks of it, they also need some color in their flock, considering the Latin@ population is on the rise, nationally and specially in Florida. and women too.
justiceontherocks
The less christianity we have to put up with the better.
DR
The article got it in one. We don’t need to identify ourselves *just* by our sexual orientation any longer, and unless faith-based organizations can appeal to a larger group of people, many of us will simply go elsewhere.
Gregger
@rodrigo: Joy MCC has been around more than 30 years. I attended a few times while visiting Central FL. At one time there was quite a large regular attendance.
SteveC
The rapid growth of atheism among young people is also contributing to the slow death of religion. This is a truly wonderful development.
Seth
Fantastic news, why should we have to be Christian just because Christian churches just decided to one day accept us instead of promoting our execution?
Reminds me of African Americans turning to Christianity in early American history – the religion that once justified their enslavement…
The bottom line is that religion is evil… the less of it, the better.
cassandra
“The rapid growth of atheism among young people is also contributing to the slow death of religion. This is a truly wonderful development.”
Yeah, it worked really well in Communist East Germany, the Stasi had a wonderful time developing ways to oppress and persecute everyone.
“The less christianity we have to put up with the better.”
Homophobes say “the less homosexuality we have to put up with the better”. Religious bigotry is still bigotry and still evil.
Karl Marx helped unleash one of the most oppressive and destructive ideologies mankind has ever seen, responsible for more death, and oppression and destruction in its short existence than any other ideology other than nazism. It is telling that tallskin defends his bigotry by invoking one of the worst offenders against humanity of all time.
Tallskin is a bigot equivalent to Fred Phelps or Maggie Gallagher. While atheists have done nearly nothing to advance civil rights for GLBTQ people, GLBTQ Christians, and liberal/progressive Christians, have done the bulk of the work to advance civil equality, paid the bulk of costs, and made the most sacrifices.
Go to Cuba if you want to see what atheism offers GLBTQ people.
cassandra
For what reality is worth – the increase in atheism correlates with the stalling of civil rights advances, the increased influence of commercialism and greed, the erosion of civil liberties in deference to corporate gain, and the increasing violence and abusiveness of society in general, and the revival of racial and gender prejudices that were in decline. The only question is whether atheism is a cause or the simply another symptom.
Atheism is a ugly prejudice, and celebrating it reinforces every prejudice, including homophobia.
Tallskin
Cassandra – LOL you do make me laugh, mainly because you’re such an ignorant silly ditsy idiot.
karl marx unleashed nothing, he was a writer. But hey, I don’t expect you to know that. I expect you think he sat with lenin and stalin plotting the setting of the stasi in east germany in 1947, eh?
The thing that reveals you as a typical christian, rather than as just a hypocrite (a hypocrite in that you professes love for mankind but in fact you are a nasty piece of work) is that you always attack ME for presenting an argument! Christians and muslims cannot stand atheists, it drives them absolutely bats.
Do you proudly show around your drivel that you write on here to your swooning church group and get applause??
Best not to try and explain in rational terms that both nazism and soviet communism were religious in their worship of deities, in their slave mentality etc etc cos you just couldn’t cope with it!
And go to Cuba?? Are you for real? It’s not my sort of place, far too totalitarian in the christian tradition of thought control and its homophobia. No, if you want atheism in practice come to the UK, see how it works here – the UK has ten times more gay equality than the religious USA. Or indeed anywhere in Western Europe.
justiceontherocks
Cassandra you are nuttier than a fruit cake.
Christianity gave us the Crusades, the Inquisitions, a moral justification for slavery. The roman church put the icing on the cake by supporting the nazis during and prior to WWII.
Yes, the sooner we can do without such an institution, the better off we’ll all be.
Believe whatever you like, and if religion works for you good for you, but cut out the crap of making the oppressor seem like the oppressed.
Devon
That would just mean one less temple devoted to ridiculous, ancient superstitions taking up space in the world. Sounds like great news to me.
cassandra
“Cassandra you are nuttier than a fruit cake.”
In other words, you have no accurate rebuttal to make.
“Christianity gave us the Crusades, the Inquisitions, a moral justification for slavery.”
Actually, no. Some people who called themselves Christians used Christianity to excuse these things – but all three were about the acquisition of wealth and power.
“The roman church put the icing on the cake by supporting the nazis during and prior to WWII.”
Not only is that a less than accurate account of the history, the Nazi’s were overtly antagonistic to most of Christianity, while atheist Soviet Union and atheist China have murdered far more people and oppressed even more.
Further, there was no shortage of atheists who supported the Nazi’s, and under all atheist regimes to date, homosexuals have been oppressed.
However, it was primarily people of faith who ended slavery, not atheists, and primarily people of faith who ended the crusades, not atheists, and primarily people of faith who ended the Inquisition, and the Nazi’s.
Remember, that Christianity at its heart demands civil equality, but atheism repudiates it.
“And go to Cuba?? Are you for real? It’s not my sort of place, far too totalitarian in the christian tradition of thought control and its homophobia.”
Atheist, anti-religion Cuba is too totalitarian for your tastes, tallskin? Yet you demand totalitarian control over everyone else. Cuba is your dream made reality, as was East Germany.
“karl marx unleashed nothing, he was a writer.”
Atheism is incredibly tolerant of deception. As a writer, Karl Marx introduced, and unleashed, Marxism, the results of which were catastrophic destruction and oppression.
“But hey, I don’t expect you to know that. I expect you think he sat with lenin and stalin plotting the setting of the stasi in east germany in 1947, eh?”
That’s a nice fantasy, but retreating from reality does not demonstrate that your atheism is moral or ethical. Atheism is intrinsically anti-human and consistently is expressed through oppresssion, and has no redeeming virtues or values.
In fact, atheism has no value except ‘everyone else but atheists are wrong’ – just like homophobia.
“The thing that reveals you as a typical christian,”
Homophobes and other bigots do this do – characterize all GLBTQ people as “typical homosexuals” to dismiss and vilify. With every post, tallskin, you employ the language and tactics of prejudice.
“rather than as just a hypocrite (a hypocrite in that you professes love for mankind but in fact you are a nasty piece of work) ”
Your use of personal attack, lies and verbal abuse is symptomatic of extreme prejudice. Homophobes say the exact same thing when I refute their prejudice. Bigots consistently respond as you do with abusive and degrading behavior.
For any bigot, including yourself, anyone who disagrees with or criticizes their abuse of other people is ‘a nasty piece of work’. It is simpler to vilify and slander, that acknowledge the ethical fraud of your position.
“is that you always attack ME for presenting an argument! ”
Actually, I attacked your argument, which apparently you believe is above criticism because wrote it. Such ego. You though, attacked me directly. Such hypocrisy.
“Christians and muslims cannot stand atheists, it drives them absolutely bats.”
Atheists hate 99% of humanity, while homophobes only hate 10%. Atheists call for the oppression of 99% of humanity, deride 99% of humanity as delusional, sick and a threat, while homophobes only apply such hate speech to 10% of humanity.
And tallskin, it is clear that your “it drives them absolutely bats” accurately, though incompletely, describes your response to the very existence of people of faith.
Cassandra
tallskin
You and your peers/sockpuppets practice the game of blaming all Christians/all people of faith for the wrongs committed by some, a game homophobes play as well.
Since you are a brit, allegedly, let’s consider that the British empire spread oppression and subjugation to a larger portion of the planet than any empire before or since. Shall we blame all brits for the attrocities committed in India, and Ireland? Let’s hold you personally accountable for the deaths caused in Ireland’s great famine. You are a brit, the brit’s oppressed the Irish economically and looked the other way as that oppression, coupled with famine and potato blight, killed millions of people in just a handful of years.
And while you celebrate the spread of your prejudice atheism in Britain, we shouldn’t forget that British society is in a nose-dive, after decades of stagnation. There is clearly something fundamentally wrong in your island nation, a moral bankruptcy and degradation so thorough and dehumanizing that Britain is on the verge of being the first First World Country to become a Third World country.
“the UK has ten times more gay equality than the religious USA.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom
“Same-sex marriage is not legal in the United Kingdom. Marriage laws vary in the countries of the UK; however, all of them prohibit marriages between same-sex couples.”
Same-sex marriage is legal in 5 states in the U.S., the federal district, and one indian tribe.
The truth is, tallskin, the UK and the US are very close in terms of civil equality for GLBTQ people. If only you ascribed to a belief system that recognized that some behaviors, like telling lies, are wrong. Perhaps then you wouldn’t tell so many.
“Do you proudly show around your drivel that you write on here to your swooning church group and get applause??”
Do they still teach the word irony in the failing halls of education in the UK?
Here you are, playing to your anti-religion peers on a board where the prejudice of atheism is roundly applauded nearly every day. You are projecting your behavior at me, but I’m not the one seeking affirmation and ego-strokes.
Atheism, tallskin, is entirely about ego. It’s sole premise is that the lack of experience of atheists and their intellect intrinsically invalidates the experiences and intellect of everyone else in the world. It is entirely about the ego of atheists being place in supremacy above all else. Atheism offers no check to that ego, no condemnation of any behavior no matter how destructive or abusive – as long as it is committed by people who are not religious.
But Christianity, Islam, Judaism and the other mainstream religions, and many other religions, rein in ego, and teach that other people are equal to one’s self.
Egotism is not an issue that you, particularly, should ever raise in debate.
PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS
Seems to me that if you hit the rewind button all the way back to the dawn of wars you will find a religious component in a large percentage of the battles fought through history…Right up to the war being waged in the West today by the islamic fundamentalist lunatics…..I agree the world would be a much better place if persons acknowledged and worshiped their gods in their own private ways…………
Yet unfortnately those who wish to do the most harm, the most feverent lunatic fringes of every religion seem to be growing in their desire to convert or destroy those who do not accept their wicked rhetoric……..
SteveC
I think that ‘god’ is an evil cunt.
Luckily it does not exist.
And when I say that ‘god’ is a cunt I am discriminating against no-one.
I fully respect the right of people to believe in fictitious cunts if they wish.
‘God’ is an ugly, retarded cunt!
SteveC
And let’s not forget that in 2010, 16% of the US population do not believe in ‘god;.
In 2000, only 10% did not believe in ‘god’.
The disgusting bigotry of religious people is having a positive effect – less people believe in the vindictive cunt god.
justiceontherocks
Cassandra has a “the dog ate my homework” reply for everything. Christianity wasn’t responsible for the Crusades, only some rogue Christians. Like the Pope. And while the Nazis may have been “antagonistic” toward Christianity, that doesn’t alter the fact that the Vatican supported them. The vatican, which has always been about the acquisition of wealth and power.
Your arguments are as shallow as your fraud religion. The first cry of all oppressors: “We are oppressed.”
Kurt
“Christianity gave us …a moral justification for slavery. The roman church put the icing on the cake by supporting the nazis during and prior to WWII.”
No, this is not true. Cassandra is correct on this one.
No national religious denomination supported slavery. In fact the Abolitionist Movement was far more of a church dominated movement than most any other social cause. I’m not denying individuals spouted off personal claims justifying slavery, but no national denomination did.
The Catholic Church, through its political arm — the Zentrum — made an alliance with the Socialist Party and the liberals to oppose Nazism. The Catholic-Socialist-Liberal alliance was the governing coalition during most the Weimer period. It was when they lost their majority that the Nazis were able to take power in alliance with the Conservatives.
MikeE
the supposed atheists on this board are making a very poor showing for the superiority of their values.
you’re all coming across as total asshats.
and unbelievably bigoted and prejudiced.
tallskin2
MikeE – “the supposed atheists”
Nothing supposed about me, you little Cassandra’s pet you.
tallskin2
Hmmm, I think the problem here is that christians/muslims/jews are not used to being criticised and having their (absurd) beliefs held up to the light of reason.
Here in the UK the christians are currently mounting a counter-attack against secularism, insisting that they are under attack, when what is actually happening is that no-one is listening to them anymore when they scream and shout about eg gays. Britain is currently in the process of removing the privileges they’ve had for hundreds of years and they hate it and they can’t handle it.
And they are using the same hysterical language cassandra is using, language of abuse and extreme distress. Whenever you see “christians” on tv or read them in the press they’re always VERY CROSS AND VERY ANGRY.
Fact is most of us laugh at them
And they really hate that
DR
Wow, nice, mature commentary.
If you “atheists” want to express your displeasure with religion, that’s fine, but enough with the insults, they’re getting old and tedious.
You want to disagree with me about religion, then do it respectfully. Childish displays of vulgarity do not intelligent commentary make.
tallskin2
But they really, really fucking hate being laughed at and not given respect
RomanHans
> you’re all coming across as total asshats.
> and unbelievably bigoted and prejudiced.
I totally agree. Really, there’s no reason for atheists to keep criticizing the people who want to kill them.
tallskin2
@DR -“You want to disagree with me about religion, then do it respectfully.”
Why should I respect absurd beliefs?
let’s take the example of poor old socrates who was put to death for mocking the gods of athens. (you’ve heard of socrates, yes?)
Now, the athenians worshipped Apollo, Zeus, Diana etc.
So, Were the athenians or was socrates right? Who has survived the sands of time?
If you met someone who worshipped Zeus, Diana and Appollo et al, would you give them respect?
No, of course you wouldn’t
You’d no more give them respect than you give respect to the mad bag lady down the street who worships the pixie at the bottom of the garden
See the comparison?
Ogre Magi
The sooner churches like this die out the better. We should be above this type of crap! The people in that photo all look pathetic! I want to spit in all of their faces!
SteveC
No 24: Dr – you say:
“You want to disagree with me about religion, then do it respectfully.”
I am being respectful. I respect your right to worship whatever you like.
Please show equal respect for my view that ‘god’ is a decrepit, fake old cunt.
Jamie
Well, apparently the religious fanatics’ calls to victimization are working, as evidenced by the trolls at work here. Just like the PornoPete LaBarbaras and Tony Perkinses of the world are trying to start, here we have a couple of trolls who want to claim that Christians are the real victims.
Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. And they know it.
So, for the sake of sanity and an adult discussion (you know, the old ‘turn the other cheek’ argument), let’s ignore the Christians unless they want to own up to their history and behavior as some of the worst oppressors of all time. You can start with an apology and promise to stay out of our lives, and yes, that includes your Biblical preachings about marriage, homosexuality, and the rest of your demons to which you keep falling.
gew
I seem to recall reading that Jesus told his followers that when people “disrespect” them, there were to rejoice.
Do they? No. They piss and moan about how mean everyone is being to them, and how respected they should be.
So called Christ followers who don’t even know their own holy book.
I also seem to recall him saying that they were to turn the other cheek.
Do they?
No.
They’re supposed to be generous and give not only their coat, but their cloak as well.
Do they?
No. They piss and moan about how they don’t want THEIR taxes going to lazy welfare bums.
And if the argument is that they’re only human… then they need to repent for their lack of faith in not being changed into his image enough.
And Jesus was not keen on lack of faith.
Less pissing and moaning you Christians; less wimpering about how mean people are to you, and how you deserve respect, and more rejoicing that you’re being persecuted.
Merlyn
One gets so tired of hearing the “but it doesn’t attract families with children” cant. Personally I could care less. It’s just sad that you can’t have a good GLBT church without dragging the family crap in. If you want a family-oriented church, go elsewhere.
gew
I seem to recall reading that Jesus told his followers that when people “disrespect” them, there were to rejoice.
Do they? No. They piss and moan about how mean everyone is being to them, and how respected they should be.
So called Christ followers who don’t even know their own holy book.
I also seem to recall him saying that they were to turn the other cheek.
Do they?
No.
They’re supposed to be generous and give not only their coat, but their cloak as well.
Do they?
No. They piss and moan about how they don’t want THEIR taxes going to lazy welfare bums.
And if the argument is that they’re only human… then they need to repent for their lack of faith in not being changed into his image enough.
And Jesus was not keen on lack of faith.
Less pissing and moaning you Christians; less wimpering about how mean people are to you, and how you deserve respect; more rejoicing that you’re being persecuted.
And for those who like to delineate between so-called “real” Christians and “fake” Christians, I can only assume that you are busy writing, phoning, contacting these fake Christians and demanding your relgion back.
After all, clean up is supposed to take place in the House of God first, starting with the King (or leadership) and THEN spread into the rest of the world.
I don’t see THAT happening either.
It’s all talk and no do with you people except for the pursuit of your own little kingdom agendas.
And for a god of peace and love, the number of splinter sects and cults is phenomonal to behold.
Clean up your backyard before you start peering over the fence into mine.
Hypocrites. White washed sepulchares. Wolves. Snakes. Opportunistic sociopaths.
gew
@gew: er… there=they’re
DGH
Just a minor nitpick on this: MCC is a Protestant denomination; they don’t have Sunday “mass” but Sunday worship services.
I loved going to church as a kid (the music and liturgical DRAMA; hated most of the priests, though – creepy), but as an adult, even attending a VERY gay-positive Episcopal Church, I just couldn’t take the politics anymore. Far worse than any office politics I’ve ever encountered. I think that’s bound to happen when some people are able/willing to donate more to the church than others, and the ones who give the most expect to have veto power over most if not all decisions and policies. So I stopped going about 5 years ago and have never looked back.
Besides, I love sleeping in on Sunday…
Josh
It seems to me that I’m watching a whole lot of “cum hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacies flying around out there. Religion doesn’t make people evil. Evil people use religion and anything else they can to do their evil.
When your crusade to eliminate religion succeeds, what then will you blame for the evils in the world?
It is not religion. It is people. It is IDEOLOGY. You cannot eliminate IDEOLOGY.
As a gay Christian, I feel more wholly alienated by folks like Tallskin, GEW and SteveC from the gay community than I have *ever* felt in the dozens of churches I have set foot in over my lifetime.
This blog is about the progress of GLBTQ rights, not about atheism or Christianity. Let’s focus on the goals and not alienate our allies over personal beliefs.
gew
Point of interest; I played piano in fundie churches – born again, at 17; total immersiaon baptism, speaking in toungues, manifestation of the “gifts of the spirit, our church and belief is better than yours, we’re on the cutting edge of what god is doing – for years before I found the strength to accept who I was and escape the toxicity.
It damn near destroyed me.
I know therefore of what I speak.
You bloody well better believe it’s personal.
The “church” therefore can collapse under it’s own weight for all I care. I just hope that others can escape as well.
Richard Ford
I have no ax to grind with people whose religious inclinations lead them to attend church. But I am heartened to think that young people, gay or straight, are ever less needful of organized religion, an institution which has been, on balance, been one of the most divisive and destructive forces in human history.
Exhorting young people to join a congregation simply for the sake of preserving a “tradition” is a step backward. Tradition is there to be transcended.
WillBFair
Both sides of this argument give me the creeps. I think they might be trolls sent here to divide atheists and liberal christians. Either that or they’re hopless dingbats.
Cherry picking history to trash atheists or christians is so tired. It’s a game for the intellectually lazy.
We should be celebrating the valus we share, equality, fairness, and kindness. And we should be strategizing over how to defeat the enemies of equality.
Lakilester
@gew: I went through a similar experience growing up Pentecostal. So glad I quit religion.
Jeff K.
I never understood the theistic impulse. I stopped believing in God when I was 13, before I even knew I was gay! For me it was like letting go of Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. I guess that’s why it’s hard for me (and a lot of other atheists) to relate to people who still hold onto god-belief.
DR
Bigotry and intolerance wrapped in a rainbow flag is still bigotry and intolerance, and just as stupid and ignorant as those who wrap their bigotry in a Bible, Confederate flag, or white hood.
merkin
the difference is religion is a choice, sexuality is not. If you subscribe to a group (a religion, a political party, etc) that espouses things I don’t like, I should be free to condemn it for its opinions. Thats COMPLETELY different from condemning gay people just for being gay.
dfrw
I too think the less religion there is and the fewer believers ( in nonsense in my opinion ), the better. Unfortunately, while Christianity may be on the decline in much of the Western world, there is no such decline in other parts of the world. For example, religion is on the rise in Turkey, Egypt, Eastern Europe (including some EU countries), and China. Additionally, regressive Islam is on the rise not only in the Middle East, but also in western Europe and that is quite frightening. The UK, France, and Germany are particularly experiencing this problem and given how regressive this regressive religion is, the scarier its growth is. If the planet survives another hundred years, the map of the religious world is likely to look much different than it has in the past or it does today. I’m glad I won’t be here that long.
Cassandra
Merkin
You are more than a bit of a bigot, you know.
“the difference is religion is a choice, sexuality is not.”
Actually, if you ever listened to people of faith, you’d learn that religion is a choice the way that sexuality is a choice.
The innate capacity is not chosen, in either case. But some people, atheists and “ex-gays” chose to deny their innate capacity. And for both religion, and sexuality, the ways that people chose to express this innate trait, is a combination of chosen and instinctive behaviors.
“If you subscribe to a group (a religion, a political party, etc) that espouses things I don’t like,”
You left out sexuality, how dishonest. After all, homophobes believe that homosexuals belong to a group that espouses things they don’t like.
“I should be free to condemn it for its opinions.”
You are as free to condemn religion as homophobes are to condemn homosexuality.
“Thats COMPLETELY different from condemning gay people just for being gay.”
Only it is not completely different. In both the case of homophobia, and atheism, the condemners are making negative and abusive judgments about a personal component of other people’s lives, based primarily on their own lack of experience and their ego.
Prejudice is prejudice, and your prejudice against people of faith is just as reprehensible, degrading and depraved, as homophobia is.
Drew
“I too think the less religion there is and the fewer believers ( in nonsense in my opinion ), the better.”
Homophobes say the exact same thing about homosexuality. If you had any integrity, it would trouble you to be making the exact same argument about the people you hate, as the people who hate you (if you are GLBTQ) say about you.
“Unfortunately, while Christianity may be on the decline in much of the Western world, there is no such decline in other parts of the world.”
Christianity is not on the decline in much of the western world, that is a distortion of data comparable to the ones that homophobes make. And by couching your lie with ‘unfortunately’, you are pining for a world where your life determines what is allowable for others.
“If the planet survives another hundred years, the map of the religious world is likely to look much different than it has in the past or it does today.”
The map of the world in nearly every category of human endeavor has changed dramatically in spans of a hundred years or less. Change is not always for the good. The only instantiations of athiest societies in the 20th century were extraordinarily oppressive and entailed the near eradication of human rights.
Jeff K
“I never understood the theistic impulse.”
Homophobes say something very similar: “I never understood being attracted to someone of my own gender”. Your lack of understanding of other people’s experiences means nothing about their experiences. It only reflects on you. Perhaps, if instead of dismissing people’s experiences, you actually attempted to listen and learn, you would understand. Homophobes have the same problem, they don’t listen and learn.
“I stopped believing in God when I was 13, before I even knew I was gay!”
If I had a dollar for every time as ex-gay said “I stopped believing in homosexuality” – I could pay cash for a fully loaded 2011 Mustang convertible and pay for years of insurance.
As a person of faith, I could no more stop believing in God than I could stop being gay, or stop experiencing gravity, or stop having mass. You have less reality to me, as a pseudonymous bigot on the internet, than the God I experience every minute of the day.
“For me it was like letting go of Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.”
For me, it would be like “letting go” of my sister, or my parents, or the color red, or the sound of a g minor chord – things that I have experienced so thoroughly, so consistently, that I could not let go.
“I guess that’s why it’s hard for me (and a lot of other atheists) to relate to people who still hold onto god-belief.”
I think you cannot relate to us because you do not see us as human beings, but rather as inferiors you can mock and dismiss. Sadly, that reflects only on you.
Steve
Many people attend church for reasons other than to worship a deity. Those reasons are usually social. A church provides a social network that is very easily accessed and very robust. Most churches make it very easy to meet people and form personal relationships.
As one result, people who attend church regularly are more likely to be happy. While this has been known informally for many years, recent research also supports the claim. See, http://pewresearch.org/pubs/?ChartID=12
Alcohol-based entertainment at clubs and bars does not lead to happiness. Having relationships with people, does. Many young adults seem to need a few years to figure that out.
adam
@cassandra: Wow, do you even know what atheism is? Judging from your comments, I’ve never heard/read anything more ignorant.
adam
@Cassandra: “The truth is, tallskin, the UK and the US are very close in terms of civil equality for GLBTQ people.”
Are you insane? The UK has federal protections for gays in virtually every conceivable area (housing, employment, etc). Nevermind that civil partnerships grant ALL of the rights of marriage, federally. The U.S. has a handful of states that offer state-based rights, while being denied even basic protections in the majority of states – zero federally, and few states recognizing their relationships at all (and I live in one of the few with full equality). The U.S. is FAR behind the U.K.
Kind of pointless to respond to you, however, you clearly know absolutely nothing and talk out of your ass.
Cassandra
GEW
“Point of interest; I played piano in fundie churches – born again, at 17; total immersiaon baptism, speaking in toungues, manifestation of the “gifts of the spirit, our church and belief is better than yours, we’re on the cutting edge of what god is doing – for years before I found the strength to accept who I was and escape the toxicity.
It damn near destroyed me.”
Ah, paraphrase the ex-gays. How many professional ex-gays have trotted out their story of the “gay lifestyle” and how it “damn near destroyed” them, before they “found the strength to accept who I was and escape the toxicity”.
We don’t believe ex-gays when they pull this nonsense, why should anyone believe you? You had a screwed up life, perhaps, because of choices you made, or choices your family and friends made, not because of religion. Just as “ex-gays” had screwed lives not because they were homosexual, but because of choices they made, or the people in their lives made.
“I seem to recall reading that Jesus told his followers that when people “disrespect” them, there were to rejoice.
Do they? No. They piss and moan about how mean everyone is being to them, and how respected they should be.”
Too bad you lacked the integrity to actually cite a verse for this. However, not all Christians piss and moan about how mean everyone is being to them, so you are simply a liar and a bigot.
Further, your premise is that when people experience harm, they are not to complain. But that means that you too cannot complain, and yet, you are complaining rather stridently. Such hypocrisy.
“So called Christ followers who don’t even know their own holy book.”
You clearly don’t. Atheists rarely, if ever do. The Bible is a huge collection of books, and much of it is subject to interpretation. Your sweeping generalization indicates that your argument is deliberately dishonest. I daresay, any Jesuit knows the Bible better than you do, or most Doctors of Divinity, and millions of laypeople.
“I also seem to recall him saying that they were to turn the other cheek.
Do they?
No.”
So you magically know what billions of human beings, across some 2000 years have done every moment of their lives? Good grief. Did it occur to you that by not responding to your post the same level of lies and malice you have displayed, every Christian who read your hate speech, turned the other cheek.
“They’re supposed to be generous and give not only their coat, but their cloak as well.
Do they?
No. They piss and moan about how they don’t want THEIR taxes going to lazy welfare bums.”
Actually, people of faith consistently are more generous than atheists. And judging by the posts of atheists here, more honest as well.
“And if the argument is that they’re only human… then they need to repent for their lack of faith in not being changed into his image enough.”
You do not know much about Christian theology. What a shame you have libeled so many millions of people about something you know next to nothing about.
“Less pissing and moaning you Christians; less wimpering about how mean people are to you, and how you deserve respect; more rejoicing that you’re being persecuted.”
How about less hate speech from you bigots, less lies and slander, less contempt for us, less dismissal when we tell you that you are malicious and vicious.
“And for those who like to delineate between so-called “real” Christians and “fake” Christians, I can only assume that you are busy writing, phoning, contacting these fake Christians and demanding your relgion back.”
Nice fantasy. And to think that some atheists actually have the audacity to call Christians deluded.
“I don’t see THAT happening either.”
Just because you don’t see something, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. You are not God, after all, though, of course, atheism is really about being a pretend personal god.
“It’s all talk and no do with you people except for the pursuit of your own little kingdom agendas.”
Like you then.
“And for a god of peace and love, the number of splinter sects and cults is phenomonal to behold.”
Not really, it reflects the diversity of humanity.
“Clean up your backyard before you start peering over the fence into mine.”
Live your advice before you give it next time, and it might sound convincing.
“Hypocrites. White washed sepulchares. Wolves. Snakes. Opportunistic sociopaths.”
Nice hate speech, bigot.
ewe
@Cassandra: Well hello there Cassandra. You’re back. Happy new year.
Cassandra
“Why should I respect absurd beliefs?”
Why should anyone respect you, tallskin? Your belief that God does not exist is orders of magnitude more absurd than any religion.
But you are being dishonest,which is understandable considering you come from a belief system that does not condemn dishonesty. The issue is not whether you should respect beliefs, absurd or not, but rather whether you should respect other human beings.
You do not. And yet scream and holler with all your might that you are absolutely entitled to total and unquestioning respect for not only your absurd belief that you know the truth about other people’s live better than they do, but for your contempt filled self as well.
What you seem to be completely incapable of understanding, you and your peers, is that if you want respect for your sexuality – which is simply your experience of something intangible – then you must be respectful of other people’s experiences of something intangible, and that includes religion. But like homophobes, you want everything to be about your life and your perspective, at the expense of every one else.
See, tallskin, if you have even a quata of integrity, morality and decency, you’d respect religious people in their diversity for no other reason than you want to be treated with respect in return.
But you and your peers want to be above everyone else, you want to look down at the majority of humanity with contempt and hate and an ugly sneer of masturbatory egotism while being venerated as gods.
Get over yourself, tallskin, you ain’t all that and a bag of crisps. You are a fallible, flawed, all too often malicious human being, at least as imperfect as the rest of us, and your imperfections mean you are not anywhere near good enough, much less better than anyone else.
Nathan
@Cassandra: You are dumb. The fact is, atheism is the only choice logically and if you want to blindly believe in faith, the opiate of the ignorant masses, you are as irrelevant as the non-existant god you foolishly believe in. I understand, however, that an ignorant child such as yourself cannot cope with the fact that the universe has no grand meaning for you.
Jeff K.
@Cassandra: Please, compose yourself. All you’re managing to do here is further the stereotype of Christians as rabid zealots with persecution complexes.
Cassandra
Adam
“Wow, do you even know what atheism is? Judging from your comments, I’ve never heard/read anything more ignorant.”
Since you were only able to dismiss what I wrote with snarky and childish name-calling, perhaps you should not raise the issue of ignorance.
I’ve got an idea for you – prove that anything I wrote about atheism is factually inaccurate. Let’s see how educated you are.
Plays well with others
“Seems to me that if you hit the rewind button all the way back to the dawn of wars you will find a religious component in a large percentage of the battles fought through history”
Seems and reality are often two or more different things. If you actually studied history, instead of dreaming fantasies like a magical rewind button, you’d discover that human conflict has always been about resources, just as it is in every other form of life. Even plants compete and engage in conflict over resources. Every war has been about resources, under whatever excuses were used to justify it – over land, or gold, silver, oil, crops, animals, or people. The wars in the Middle East are not about religion, they are about control of very lucrative land and resources. The crusades were not about religion, but about access to the extremely lucrative trade routes through the Middle East. “Religious” wars, in which sides fight about theology, are only superficially about religion, the goal is to acquire the resource of human beings, whether as converts, or tithers, or subjects.
As for the threat by religious extremists, it is minimal compared to the threat of corporate extremists who truly seek to own and control absolutely every resource they can, at the expense of others. We mouth off here about the Republicans vs. the Democrats, but both are serving corporate interests, and their battles are little more than means to the goal of increasing the control that corporations and their key stake holders have over the resources every one one of us needs.
It is always been about resources – food, water, air, space, companionship, durable goods, technology.
Ironically for this discussion, atheism is silent on the subject of greed and equality, but religions, particularly the main ones, teach equality in all things, in all resources.
Steve C.
Like tallskin, your abusive hate speech proves beyond all doubt that atheism is simply a degrading prejudice that seeks to oppress and subjugate everyone. The misogyny in your particular choice of expletive simply means that you are contemptuous not only of people of faith, but of women as well.
Steve C, homophobes routinely fabricate deceitful and false statistics, just as you did. If lies were to persuade me, I’d have to succumb to the lies of homophobes too. And like you and tallskin, homophobes use personal abuse and libel – if your hate speech were effective on me, then theirs would be too, and I’d have to denounce homosexuality.
Think about that carefully. When you use the same tactics that homophobes use on me and other GLBTQ people of faith, and people of faith in general, you do so with the desire for hate speech and abuse to change me in some way, but if your hate speech works someone, then the hate speech of homophobes will too.
Anyone who would succumb to your abuse here, would succumb to homophobes as well.
Ewe
I’ve been here the whole time, just watching and paying close attention. Happy New Year to you too.
ewe
The church cannot recruit young people because people in general do not feel the need to use religion as their connection to gODD. Thank almighty whateva for that!!!
Cassandra
Jeff K
Are you familiar with the word irony? In comparison to even your own hyperbolic post, I have been just short of clinically detached.
Do you think that you can alter reality with a few ugly words?
That only works in Harry Potter books.
Nathan
“You are dumb.”
And yet, unlike you, I’m smart enough to know that a derogatory dismissal like the one you just posted indicates that you have no rational rebuttal, and hope to win by being insulting.
“The fact is, atheism is the only choice logically”
No.
First, atheism is not logical. Atheism is a belief without evidence of its own that declares that the evidence of everyone else in the world is wrong. Logic dictates that a position based on the absence of experience cannot supersede or disprove a position that is based on experience. Religion is based on people’s experience, on the experiences of the majority of all humans who have lived, at least as far back as the oldest evidence of human culture found to date. Atheism is based on the lack of experience of a tiny fraction of humanity. To declare that the experiences of the majority are invalid because of the lack of experience of a minority, is not logical, or rational.
Logically, there are at least two choices – the one based on experience and the one based on the absence of experience. Logic could support additional, theoretically infinite, other choices based on different ratios of experience and lack of experience.
“and if you want to blindly believe in faith,”
Mis-characterizing my experience for me indicates that your premise is based on contmept and indicates a lack of morals and ethics on your part. I do not blindly believe in faith, I have faith in what I have experienced. That, by the way, is the fundamental commonality of human existence.
“the opiate of the ignorant masses,”
Your characterization is based on contempt and malice, not logic or reason.
“you are as irrelevant”
Such ego – anyone who does not share you lack of experience is irrelevant. However, your contemptuous dismissal of my very humanity proves beyond all doubt that atheism is simply a prejudice. You don’t reject God, you reject 99% of humanity as irrelevant.
“as the non-existant god you foolishly believe in.”
I do not believe in a non-existent god, please do not lie about my life, I get enough of that from homophobes. I believe in the God I daily and continually experience – a God, I should point out, that is more real to me that you are, since, frankly, in this context “you” are just words on a web page.
“I understand, however, that an ignorant child such as yourself cannot cope with the fact that the universe has no grand meaning for you.”
You may someday learn that when you have to use insults to defend your position, it means your position lacks a basis in reality.
I should point out that your entire post was lacking in logic, evidence, rational argument, or an accurate grasp of any issue I raised, much less the depth and complexity of humanity’s relationship with religion, or science, or the universe. Given how poor your effort was in contrast to mine, how ever low a picture you paint of me, you look worse.
tallskin2
Good Lordy Mama,
if every single one of Cassandra’s words was magically transformed (Harry Potter like) into a tea spoon of diarrhoea, then from this thread alone she would have produced enough, squatting down over a bucket, to fill a concert-hall the size of grand central station with her reeking verbiage.
Phwoaaaa, what a pen and ink! (that’s cockney rhyming slang, gal)
Cassandra
Ewe
“The church cannot recruit young people because people in general do not feel the need to use religion as their connection to gODD. Thank almighty whateva for that!!!”
And atheists dismiss religion as fantasy. Wow.
The reality is that many churches are very, very popular with young people, others are not, and the difference often has more to do with the sophistication of the theology more than anything else.
People in different age groups tend to have different priorities and levels of interest. At some ages, people tend to seek simplistic, black/white type ways of understanding – teens and young adults for example. Systems of belief that operate on this level, like atheism and fundamentalist religions, stripped down versions of wicca, and so on, have great appeal for young people.
Middle aged people tend to be drawn to greater levels of sophistication and nuance, are better at handling complexity and intangible concepts, and trend toward churches and religions and other systems that manifest such traits – like progressive Christianity.
Late in life, people tend to be drawn to a mix, seeking the comfort of simplicity in some things, while craving challenge.
The theology taught in MCC’s tends away from the simplistic, black/white answers that young people (young regardless of physical age) are drawn too, and embrace sophistication and nuance to levels that are more appealing to older people with more life experience.
UFMCC may not be necessary 2 or 5 or 10 decades from now, if a majority of other denominations repudiate anti-gay theology, just as racially segregated congregations are becoming less necessary. But the UFMCC was vital for many people of faith since 1968, and its very existence has helped push other denominations toward rejecting anti-gay theology. UFMCC may be necessary for generations though, as a home for not only adult GLBTQ people of faith, but for heterosexual families with one or more GLBTQ kids. As long as there is a need for Christian communities that are safe for GLBTQ people because other places are not safe, UFMCC will have something to offer.
By definition, any connection to God is religion. And people innately hunger for communal experiences. People of faith will, as they have for millenia, gather to share their experiences of the Divine. All of the externals – buildings, rites and sacraments, symbols, will change as human culture changes.
Cassandra
tallskin
It is truly sad that the apparent maximum of your argumentative powers is crude verbal abuse comprised of potty talk.
Billysees
Here’s something of interesting value to consider —
Jesus said, “Little children, it’s my pleasure to give you the Kingdom”.
The apostle Paul said, “The Kingdom of God is not in word, but power…it’s not food and drink…it’s righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit”. Power means the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said the Holy spirit will guide us into all truth.
Real and meaningful Christian practice involves the pursuit of righteousness or simply doing the right thing or doing good things. It’s nearly all “works”. And it’s nearly always the work of the Holy Spirit that’s in us. We all have been given a measure of faith. Even so called unbelievers.
We gays owe a great debt of gratutude for the work of the Holy Spirit in our world today. Look at all the good things it’s doing on our behalf. Like the repeal of DADT for example. We might think that our activists and friends are responsible for this. And in a way they are. But it’s really the hidden work of God’s Holy Spirit that makes it possible.
If God can be for us, who can be against us.
Bruce Barton said that, “The Spirit and the Spirit alone is all that really matters”. Read “The Man Nobody Knows” for a vision of the Real Jesus. That comforting friend who will not condemn or judge.
Think of it this way — “Happy is the boy or girl or man or woman who do not condemn themselves for the things that they allow or approve of”. Or simply put, we don’t condemn ourselves because we are Gay or Lesbian because we realize how good and fulfilling and happy this makes us be.
Later…
Caro
@tallskin2:
Have you actually read any Platonic dialogues? Within each one there is some sort of a myth that is given, and there are many discussion of the gods. In Crito, Socrates makes a case that he does believe in the gods, just not the incarnations of ones the Athenians did. He even plays the “divine inspiration” card. He felt that they weren’t theologically consistent. He wanted gods (or umm…forms?) that were beyond mortal weaknesses like lust, jealousy, or hatred. As someone who has read most of the dialogues and translated a bit of them from the original Greek, it sounds like you’ve been working from synopses or incredibly biased readings of a particular work.
I am a person of faith, but I don’t necessarily care if people around me are atheists. Why? Because it is none of my business what you believe, the only things that are in my control are my actions or my beliefs. I cannot control what my predecessors have done, all I can do is acknowledge the atrocities that have been carried out by followers of my religion and try to combat them in the present.
This thread has erupted into a flame war instead of an actual discussion of this article. It’s just being used as a way to antagonize groups that individuals don’t affiliate themselves with. The LGBTQI community needs to stop all of the squabbling and in-fighting before we can obtain our full civil rights. Some people are religious, some people aren’t. Get over it. We need everyone in this fight.
Billysees
It is a fight. And the enemies are many. And it will require all-hands-on-deck. I prefer to think that God’s amazing power will help us. It’s easier to think that way.
declanto
It’s way past time for the religious among us to acknowledge that atheists are capable of moral and ethical judgement and behavior.
The assumption that Atheists are wicked is fallacious. The Humanistic movement is alive and well in Europe. @tallskin2: If you want to see equality come to Norway.
Jeffree
If someone would please let me know when the *Majority* of Christians believe that homosexuality is NOT a sin, I will gladly attend a church. At least once.
Until then, I won’t try to talk Christians out of their beliefs but I will treat them like I do astrologists and palm readers: with bemusement. They’re just so quaint!
Billysees
There isn’t much difference between the religious and atheists. It’s nearly impossible to tell them apart. I read that “Man’s ways are of the Lord, how can we understand our own ways”. That includes atheists and everybody else. And they are not wicked folks. The Book is full of cobwebs. In my own way of thinking, I’m able to wipe them out of the way. You have to understand things on your own. That’s called, “working out your own salvation or your own unique understanding”.
I realize I cherry pick my references simply because it’s convenient. It’s how I deal with the issues of this life. Following others is a waste of time.
Billysees
The word sin and it’s meaning is difficult to make. It’s not clear what it is, if I can say it that way. That will sound unusual of course to some. But let’s look at it this way — Jesus seldom mentions the word and almost never refers to it. Get a concordance and check it out. I myself was amazed when I first realized that.
I think the basic definition of “sin” is that it is the breaking of God’s law. But what is God’s law? I don’t know off-hand what it is. I think the word sin is thrown around too much and is erroneously attached to things that it shouldn’t be. Habit will do that. Perhaps we need to get some new habits. Maybe we need to say as the New Testament would declare — “all things are lawful”. I think that is where Gay and Lesbian issues belong.
Jesus was sort of an abbreviationist. He got the Ten Commandments for example and simplified them into one commandment, i.e. “love your neighbor as yourself”. No one had ever attempted to do that before.
I think it could be said respectfully that Jesus was something of a radical or an extremist of sorts. Very unconventional.
Billysees
Jeffree,
Check out this statement —
While the following section on Human Sexuality is an official position of the United Methodist Church, please be aware that Saint Mark United Methodist Church DOES NOT consider homosexuality to be “incompatible with Christian teaching”. This issue continues to be debated by the larger church. Saint Mark is a part of this conversation.
See this site for your interest —
http://www.stmarkumc.org/ourworld/diversity/socialjusticestands.html
Billysees
MTiffany
@Billysees: “There isn’t much difference between the religious and atheists.”
Except that atheists don’t use “Because my imaginary friend said so,” as a justification for telling other people what how to live their lives. It’s a small, quibbling point, I know…
Jeffree
@Billysees:
Yes, thanks for the link.
Saying “not incompatible” doesn’t mean “consistent with.”
To say that “Penguins are not incompatible with panda and koala bears” will never mean that they will inhabit the same environment, habitat or reality.
As soon as the bulk of Christians agree, formally, firmly and publicly that my being gay is not a sin, an abomination or a cause for atonement, I will regard Christianity as akin to palm reading & “lucky num.bers”: a throwback to a time when people didn’t know any better.
Hey, did you hear? The sun revolves around the Earth? The world was created in 7 days…. Lepers became so afflicted because they sinn.ed.
Daez
@Tallskin: People that feel the need to express their atheism at every turn do so not because they don’t believe in God but because they hate God and religion.
For a true atheist you bitch about God and the Church more than anyone I have ever heard of.
My theory is that you were raised religious, abandoned that religion because of homophobia, can not handle that you still have religious tendencies, so you feel the need to insult Christians and Christianity at every turn.
The only problem with that is, young people have always shrugged off religion until they grow up and start to realize that religion provides hope of life after death, and that is something most people want. Something that has survived for 2000+ year isn’t going to die out anytime soon.
Even psychologist and sociologist will tell you that people developed religion because people need religion.
Daez
@PLAYS WELL WITH OTHERS: No, every single war you will ever find has been about wealth and power. There is no other reason any war was ever fought. Sure, religion might have been used to control the masses and make them more nationalistic.
Daez
@justiceontherocks: Lets take everything you say at face value. That would still mean your problem is with CATHOLICISM not CHRISTIANITY. Another man had a major problem with CATHOLICISM, his name was Martin Luther, every single Protestant church is descended from that problem except the Anglican Church and its offspring which are descended from a king that liked to fuck around way to much to be Catholic.
Daez
@DGH: Don’t use your experience as a rule of fact. My partner is in a position to give much more to the church than most, and he doesn’t expect any control. He is actually a very humble servant of the church despite what he does for a living.
Daez
@gew: I’m not even remotely surprised. You aren’t atheist. You simply hate the church. I am willing to guarantee when you sit down with yourself it still troubles you that you can’t shake that belief in God.
At some point, you will realize that God and the Church are not the same thing, and its perfectly acceptable to hate the bigoted Baptist Church which does so much more harm than good to so many.
However, true atheist don’t declare war on Christians, they just don’t believe in God. They don’t promote their belief as the absolute best, they just don’t care to get involved in religion.
Your hatred of religion isn’t atheism. You have to believe in it to hate it that much.
Flying Spaghetti Monster
@cassandra:
Cassandra, give up your sad relationship with your imaginary friend. The sooner you evolve as a human being and leave the disgusting lifestyle choice that is talking to non-existent “deities” the better for you and for society.
The reason young gays don’t feel the need to be part of a church is because young people know what utter nonsense this superstitious bullshit is.
Flying Spaghetti Monster
@Daez:
Well I certainly hate ignorant fools that hang onto a superstition and continually attempt to impose that ridiculous nonsense on other people. Please keep your sad mythologies to yourselves. They have no place in a free society.
Your “Jesus,” if he existed, was the mentally ill son of a fucked-out whore from Bethlehem. Not the son of a non-existent “god.” Get over it.
rodrigo
@dfrw:
THANK YOU! I was about to write the same thing…while here we are condemning Christianity and becoming atheists, people in other parts of the world are making Islam (especially regressive) grow. Seems like a lot of people are the going to be pissed once shari’a law becomes rule and most European countries become islamic republics…
Nick
I love stereotypical thinking (going in both directions)!
Here are a few fun stereotypes combined with the kind of extreme logic the people here like to use…
Because I am of German ancestry, I must be an antisemitic fascist bent on global conquest.
Because I call myself gay, I must be a sex-crazed pedophile who will gladly have sex with anything that moves.
Because I am an American, I must be a wasteful fatass who wants to control the lives of everyone else in the world.
Because I have pale skin, I must support the enslavement of people who look different than I do.
Because I voted for a Republican senator, I must not care about people in the lower income brackets.
Because I voted for a Democrat congressman, I must be a communist hippie who smokes a lot of marajuana.
Because I have religious beliefs, I must be a stupid, self-righteous jerk who wants to use religion to oppress people.
Because I do not believe in traditional Christianity, I must have a vendetta against all Christians (oh, and I’m going to hell).
KATHY
@SteveC: You are way out of line! How can you say such hateful things? I wonder how your soul looks like, that is if you have one.
Daez
@Nathan: No dude, decades upon decades of studies have shown that Christians are healthier and lead happier lives. By that theory, Christianity is the only logical choice. There is a big difference between believing you are in everything alone and believing someone is always there to help you.
sekai
I think young GLBT have realized that you can get those benefits that traditional religion ( bonding, social networking, ect) has provided through other organizations. Sport clubs, non-profit organizations, University, ect, can provide the very same benefits. To those who keep pointing out certain churches that now accept GLBT community, I think it would be intellectually dishonest not to acknowledge that many of these churches that are welcoming to GLBT are doing so because their particular branch/denomination is dying. For example, UCC, Lutherans, Anglican, Methodist and some other traditional denominations have been losing members to more conservative evangelical branches of Christianity for years. By opening their doors to GLBT, they can keep their numbers strong, obtain financial security, and be guaranteed non-competitive pool of potential converts. I believe many young GLBT like myself recognize this and seek spiritual fulfillment in other religions/philosophies like Buddhism, Humanism, and Paganism.
Kurt
“Why should I respect absurd beliefs?”
I’m not sure you should. But you should respect people with absurd beliefs, because…they are people and therefore deserving of respect.
Daez
@MTiffany: You are so right, instead of using “because my imaginary friend says so” they use “BECAUSE I SAID SO!” I can totally see how one is better than the other.
Daez
@Flying Spaghetti Monster: See, your problem here is that your comments are filled with ANGER.
ANGER is not the lack of belief. Nullification is the lack of belief.
You are so pissed at the church that you just have to try to tear it down. You declare war on it. You pay no attention to the fact that you are declaring war on an institution that can and will crush you, you go head strong into something you can not comprehend while bitching and whining like a school girl every time someone disagrees with you.
Cassandra
MTiffany
“Except that atheists don’t use “Because my imaginary friend said so,” as a justification for telling other people what how to live their lives. It’s a small, quibbling point, I know…”
Christians don’t do that either.
But more importantly, what atheists say is this: “I know best, your experiences of your own life are wrong because I said so”.
The (unofficial but accurate) Atheist creed:
“I just know that every person of faith is wrong
about his or her experiences of God,
because I said so.
I just know they are wrong,
because I haven’t had those experiences,
therefore,
they did not either.
I just know it.
I just know that everyone who claims to experience God
is lying or delusional,
because I haven’t had such experiences,
and since God hasn’t revealed himself to me,
God does not exist.
Although I cannot prove that God does not exist,
I refuse to believe any person of faith
Just so they cannot prove to me that God does exist
That way, God still does not exist.
I just know that any evidence they have is wrong, and
I just know that I don’t need evidence of my own,
My word alone is enough.
I just know it is.
I just know I am superior to all religious people
because I said so
and I just know they are all delusional and inferior to me.
I just know that everything religious people do or think is somehow wrong
nothing I do is ever wrong.
All religious people are guilty of something,
All of them are responsible for the crimes committed by any other religious person ever,
Yet I am guilty of nothing,
Especially the crimes committed by other non-believers.
After all,
There is nothing wrong me,
I am always right,
Any pain I cause others is their fault.
I am the pinnacle of existence.
I just know it.”
Atheism is a prejudice. It is not science, it often rapes science. It is not reason or logic or philosophy, it often rapes them as well. It is a prejudice – the assumption that an entire class of people are intrinsically irrelevant and inferior and therefore, their experiences are false.
FSM
“Cassandra, give up your sad relationship with your imaginary friend.”
I have no imaginary friend to give up, oh fraudulent, pseudonymous fallible human who has co opted the name of a newly invented mock deity. I have a relationship with the Divine that I experience every minute of the day, a relationship more real than you or any other atheist trolling the internet can be.
My relationship with God is joyous, by the way.
But to the point – homophobes and other bigots do the very same thing you just did, about the lives of GLBTQ people. You made up a derogatory and false fantasy about my life, and then asserted it as fact. Homophobes do that all the time. You are in exactly the same position as any homophobe, from Fred Phelps to Maggie Gallagher.
“Please keep your sad mythologies to yourselves. They have no place in a free society.”
Homophobes say that there is no place for homosexuals in a free society. What you do not realize is that the society you envision, where my experience of the Divine is banned, is not a free society at all, but a dictatorship revolving around your ego.
You have provided yet another example of how oppressive atheism is at its heart. Its adherents will not tolerate the civil liberties of people of faith.
Just like homophobes.
“The sooner you evolve as a human being and leave the disgusting lifestyle choice that is talking to non-existent “deities” the better for you and for society.”
Homophobes call homosexuality a ‘disgusting lifestyle choice’ – you might have been trying to be clever, but you proved yourself a bigot.
“The reason young gays don’t feel the need to be part of a church is because young people know what utter nonsense this superstitious bullshit is.”
So you think you know what goes on in the minds of millions and millions of people – you imagine yourself to be god. Atheists like you reject God so they can be their own god and try to make everyone obey them.
Cassandra
Jeffree
You are parroting homophobes.
“If someone would please let me know when the *Majority* of Christians believe that homosexuality is NOT a sin, I will gladly attend a church. At least once.”
I have lost count of how many times some homophobe has declared “As soon as the majority of homosexuals denounce NAMBLA, I will support gay rights”. Bigots are always calling for the other side to meet their demands. You are no different.
The reality, Jeffree, is that more and more Christians are rejecting anti-gay theology, and there are several denominations that as a whole, reject anti-gay theology.
“Until then, I won’t try to talk Christians out of their beliefs but I will treat them like I do astrologists and palm readers: with bemusement. They’re just so quaint!”
So until you get your way, you will behave like a spoiled brat and a bigot.
declanto
“It’s way past time for the religious among us to acknowledge that atheists are capable of moral and ethical judgement and behavior.”
Well, capable of, and actually engaging in, are two very different things.
The evidence from atheists here, and elsewhere on-line, is that whether they are capable of moral and ethical judgment or not, they consistently engage in immoral and unethical behavior. If your claim is accurate, then they simply chose to do wrong, en though they know what is right.
The atrocious, anti-social behavior of atheists here aside, the issue is not whether atheists are capable of moral/ethical behavior, but the fact that atheism itself contains no moral or ethical principles, at all. Whatever moral/ethical values atheists have, they get from somewhere other than atheism.
It seems clear that tallskin, SteveC and the person posting as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have no morals or ethics other than ‘me, me, me’.
“The assumption that Atheists are wicked is fallacious.”
Substantiate that with evidence please.
In the meantime, Atheism is a prejudice whose only tenet is the rejection of the experiences of most of humanity, a truly wicked thing. Atheists chose this wicked thing, and engage in subsequent wicked, destructive, abusive behaviors. Their belief system extols no virtue.
Sekai
“I think young GLBT have realized that you can get those benefits that traditional religion ( bonding, social networking, ect) has provided through other organizations. Sport clubs, non-profit organizations, University, ect, can provide the very same benefits.”
Except, those organizations do not.
“To those who keep pointing out certain churches that now accept GLBT community, I think it would be intellectually dishonest not to acknowledge that many of these churches that are welcoming to GLBT are doing so because their particular branch/denomination is dying.”
But your claim is dishonest. You cannot know the motivations of these churches better than people who are in them, and yet, you tell a lie that contradicts the testimony of the people who actually participate in the congregations.
So much of the capacity of atheists to practice moral or ethical behavior, eh?
The fact is that churches that welcome GLBTQ people do so because they have intensely, and often painfully, studied the Scripture and listened to GLBTQ people, and with great effort, put aside preconceived or pre-taught notions.
Embracing GLBTQ people as equals is not particularly lucrative for the majority of congregations. They tend to lose as many members as they gain, and some die completely for taking a stand in support of spiritual equality.
You simply do not know what you are talking about, and are making up lies to promote your prejudice.
“For example, UCC, Lutherans, Anglican, Methodist and some other traditional denominations have been losing members to more conservative evangelical branches of Christianity for years.”
No, that isn’t exactly true. What has happened is that the denominations you listed above have become more rigorous about the membership rolls, and have stopped counting people who never or rarely participate. At the same time, evangelical ‘mega churches’ tend to exaggerate their numbers, even though they function as revolving door churchs where people come for a while and then move on, but are still counted as members.
The UFMCC, despite what the article claims, is not only the largest GLBTQ organization in the world, it has consistently grown, year after year.
“By opening their doors to GLBT, they can keep their numbers strong, obtain financial security, and be guaranteed non-competitive pool of potential converts.”
As I said before, that is fantasy. Many congregations and denominations are paying heavy cost for their rejection of anti-gay theology.
“I believe many young GLBT like myself recognize this and seek spiritual fulfillment in other religions/philosophies like Buddhism, Humanism, and Paganism.”
What you believe, and possibly experience, doesn’t reflect the experiences of a majority of young people. By the way, many “pagan” religions condemn homosexuality, and Buddhism is not particularly welcoming either. I wouldn’t call humanism a religion.
ewe
@Cassandra: More than just atheists dismiss religion as just fantasy. yup. wow alright. I do not think you are being fair when you say that the definition of a connection to gODD is religion because it is only one way used by some people. I hope you can see how i may view what you said as a blanket statement. You know Cassandra, it may very well be that you are so interested in this topic of religion ONLY because of your own life history not because of any truth connected to spirituality. I recall you saying that you are the child of a preacher or reverend or something like that. I am not trying to be offensive here but that no doubt has influenced you to study this in a scholarly way. There is no doubt you have great insight into the teachings. That may be your connection to gODD but it does not define gODD because religion has no better idea what gODD is anymore than everyone elses guess. It sounds like you feel religion is the only way to get there the way you defend it so.
ewe
@Flying Spaghetti Monster: Hold on. Why couldn’t Jesus have been an openly gay man who was murdered for being so? I would not go so far as to say he was mentally ill if he existed at all. I mean, if you think about it, people including me cannot remember the accuracy of last week much less two thousand years ago. Do you consider the Dalai Lama to be mentally ill?
Zack
“‘Socialism’ is no more an evil word than ‘Christianity.’ Socialism no more prescribed Joseph Stalin and his secret police and shuttered churches than Christianity prescribed the Spanish Inquisition. Christianity and Socialism alike, in fact, prescribe a society dedicated to the proposition that all men, women, children are created equal and shall not starve.”
Kurt Vonnegut
sekai
@Cassandra: I don’t really understand what angered you about my comments. Even you acknowledge that there is truth behind them. For example, you say that their are pagan groups that are against homosexuality, yet you don’t name any of them. You don’t even expound on Humanism. As for Buddhism, most Buddhist scholars agree that Buddha never discussed homosexuality as wrong (there really isn’t an equivalent to sin in my tradition), especially American buddhism which tends to focus more on sutras than tradition. I don’t really understand why you would dismiss the idea that many GLBT would seek alternatives to Christianity,especially since their is more access to more welcoming philosophies than ever before in the history of U.S.
You claim that I am being dishonest about denominations decline corresponding with the raise of acceptance of GLBT when religious professors such as Robin D. Perrin, have observed denominations resorting to these methods as well as others to grow their churches. I do acknowledge that many congregations have suffered from accepting GLBT, but you also have to acknowledge that many of these congregations were already suffering from lack of growth and by accepting GLBT they will be ensuring that a part of the congregation will be loyal to that institution since other Christian institutions (especially in areas which church options are limited) would reject them. Besides, most people around my age (20) , gay or straight, people refuse to worship at institutions that carry such prejudices. Also, I should have pointed out earlier in my comments that many may choose not to worship in traditional church settings, it would be a remiss not to mention the growing church house movements.
As for you claims that I am an atheist, I think you should have read my words more carefully. I never claimed to be an atheist. Your anger towards atheist and agnostics is unhealthy. I am a Buddhist and have great affinity for the Bodhavista Jesus. I understand why you are so defensive as your faith is going through difficulties, but you would do well to read carefully the words of your fellow GLBT and atheist. Many of them have brought legitimate complaints and even those who insult your religion can teach something that may be helpful to understanding other people’s point of view and why so many GLBT have left their churches.
REBELComx
Cassandra, how is your claim that atheists hate 99% of humanity any different from some of the atheistic claims about religion that you are equating to homophobia? Aren’t you just as guilty of generalizing a view point and demonizing it as you claim the atheists are when they attempt to rebuff your beliefs? Just as guilty of spewing vile about one group of people as you claim they are? You have attempted to put the comments of some atheists on the same level as those of homophobes several times, but aren’t you using the same methods you are protesting against? Your “atheist creed” could just as easily be applied to any strongly held opinion of faith (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, etc), or even your own held view of atheism. You say that “What you believe, and possibly experience, doesn’t reflect the experiences of a majority…”, shouldn’t you also examine that attitude and apply it in regards to this debate and your own views on atheists?
Also, Humanism and Buddhism are philosophies, not religions. The majority of pagan sects embrace homosexuality. And neither religion nor spirituality are necessary to have morals or ethics as those are based in our evolutionary/biologically designed emotion of empathy (which is the heart of the Golden Rule espoused in so many religions and philosophies). This is proven (varieties of primates have shown to have a sense of ethics based in empathy in the wild). Atheists are just as capable of adhering to morality and ethics as any person who has had them defined for them by religion. But when they fail to adhere to those ethics, they do not have the luxury of creating a scapegoat out of gods or devils. They can only blame themselves, recognize their weakness and deal with it.
tallskin2
@sekai
Hi
I am afraid I cannot let you mislead people into thinking that buddhism is NOT homophobic, because it is.
In many buddhist countries like Sri Lanka the main obstacle to legal reform for gays is led by buddhist leaders. And these people are viciously homophobic in a way that mirrors exactly the vicious homophobia of christian leaders.
Buddhism also has accumulated a lot of medieval baloney that teaches about the correct use of the “holes” of the body. Needless to say, like in christianity, these teachings see gay sex as not appropriate use of the right holes and the correct form of sex being the heterosexual, married, breeding couple.
Ontop of all this Buddhist monasteries have very homophobic rules about sexual conduct that monks must follow.
The Dalai Lama wrote a book about sexuality which in its original form was full of anti gay sex diatribes. His western advisors told him that this would alienate his growing western followers, so he toned the homophobia down a notch, but it’s still there.
I attended a tibetan buddhist centre here in London learning about buddhism and a blazing row broke out between the teacher and us gay students over the text he was reading to us about the inappropriateness of homosexual behaviour.
Now it may be true that the kernel of buddhist teachings is not inherantly anti gay, but then neither is the kernel at the heart of christianity!!
My conclusion was a plague on all your houses!
The real question is this: Since ALL the world’s religions condemn homosexuality, and they do, and yet we know that science tells us homosexuality is normal and exists amongst hundreds of species of animals, including us humans then obviously these religions are wrong.
If they wrong on this important issue then what else are they wrong about?
REBELComx
@tallskin2: Tallskin, I’m afraid I have to disagree with your statement that ALL the world’s religions condemn homosexuality. While it is true that most modern religions outside of the Judeo/Christian system tend to, it is usually because of the influence of Western society and its Judeo/Christian leanings. The majority of Native American tribes did not condemn homosexual acts before the west was colonized, the ancient Greeks and Romans and several religions which seek to restore those culture’s religions, do not condemn homosexuality. Some of them (especially earlier versions) downright worshiped it. Taoism, Hinduism, the spiritualities of various african tribes pre-colonialism. Even the various religions and cultures surrounding ancient Judea were either neutral or benevolent in regards to such acts.
As an interesting note, many anthropologists today that ancient man, as many Native American and african tribes did, would make a person displaying homosexual tendencies the spiritual leaders, shamans, or medicine men of the tribe, believing they contained both the aspects or souls of both male and female and were thus a more perfect being and more in touch with the spirit world. Since all religion has evolved from such shamanic practices, one could argue that this whole religion thing is really the gays’ fault in the first place. LOL
sekai
@tallskin2: I think you are confusing tradition with Buddhism. The Dalai Lama is only the leader of the Gensung sect of Tibetan buddhism. Sri Lanka has long been a bit shunned as a Buddhist nation due to their behavior not only towards GLBT, but to their Tamil citizens. You can google any Buddhist newspaper and forum, you will find many Buddhist lamenting about the bad behavior of Buddhist who lead by tradition instead of Sutra. Hence, Buddhism in the West tends to not have this problem, though I am sure some Sangha’s that are homophobic they at least tend to quiet and few in number. I agree that Buddhism as it is practice in other countries is homophobic, but it’s mostly due to their culture. If you read the sutra’s, there’s nothing their stating anything about homosexuality. The sutras actually tell Buddhist that if something the Buddha has said has been proven to be wrong, you must follow the right teaching (Kalama Sutta). But I think it would be more fruitful to talk about how Buddhism is functioning in the West as this is what concerns GLBT in this country. Many Buddhist Sangha have been performing GLBT marriages for quite sometime. I know it was Buddhist suttas and teaching that help me with the homophobia that I faced and the rejection from my family.
I understand how you feel and you have every right to feel the way you do. I do believe that atheist have every right, even a duty, to point out the injustices and/or inconsistencies with religions, so that it can be corrected if possible. I hope I don’t come off as making Buddhism sound perfect, that is not my intent. But I just wanted to clarify a few points so that I could give as accurate a picture of Buddhism in the U.S. as possibly given by Buddhist.
Cassandra
Ewe
“I do not think you are being fair when you say that the definition of a connection to gODD is religion because it is only one way used by some people.”
Fair is not the issue, accuracy is. Religion by definition is relationship with God, any means that anyone uses to be in some kind of relationship with God is a religion.
Atheists, ironically, are having a relationship, of denial and hate, with God.
“I hope you can see how i may view what you said as a blanket statement.”
Sure, by not knowing what you are talking about.
“You know Cassandra, it may very well be that you are so interested in this topic of religion ONLY because of your own life history not because of any truth connected to spirituality.”
On the other hand, it may be that you are attacking my character because you cannot make an accurately deny the truth connect to spirituality.
“I am not trying to be offensive here”
Of course you are. You are trying to dismiss out of hand what I have present by challenging my integrity, not based on what I have presented, but on the shards of my life you know about coupled with your prejudice.
Bigots do this all the time, Ewe.
My point is that any relationship with God is intrinsically religion. It may be a religion with only one believer, or ten billion, but by definition, whatever means one uses to related to God is religion.
DGH
To clarify my earlier post (#39):
Nothing I wrote should be considered as a “rule of fact.” I simply shared my own experience.
In conclusion, I find that a forum of this sort works best when people don’t (1) take themselves too seriously and/or (2) take anything personally.
I certainly don’t.
Happy New Year, everyone! Let’s lighten up a bit.
Cheer,
DGH
Cassandra
Hi my name is Cassandra and I am a dumb bitch!
Cassandra
Sekai
“I don’t really understand what angered you about my comments.”
Then you should reread and pay attention. I was quite clear – you made repeated false statements.
“Even you acknowledge that there is truth behind them.”
No, I did not. Please do not lie to me about my own post.
“For example, you say that their are pagan groups that are against homosexuality, yet you don’t name any of them.”
In no way does that affirm anything you said.
“I don’t really understand why you would dismiss the idea that many GLBT would seek alternatives to Christianity,”
I did not dismiss the idea that some, or many GLBTQ people seek alternatives to Christianity. I refuted your false claims. Bear in mind, that people of all sexualities also seek alternatives to Buddhism, which, yes, currently is not accepting of homosexuality.
“especially since their is more access to more welcoming philosophies than ever before in the history of U.S.”
Actually, the most accepting “philosophies” is progressive Christianity.
“You claim that I am being dishonest about denominations decline corresponding with the raise of acceptance of GLBT when religious professors such as Robin D. Perrin, have observed denominations resorting to these methods as well as others to grow their churches.”
I stated the facts. It is interesting that you now offer a half-citation. You cite a second-hand source, without a link, but I am drawing from not only my own direct experience, but the testimony of friends in a wide variety of denominations, as well as reports on the processes of being inclusive in these denominations. As for your reference, I found a sociologist by that name, but nothing to indicate that his work is credible.
I have observed that creating inclusiveness in churches carries a heavy price.
“I do acknowledge that many congregations have suffered from accepting GLBT,”
So you know the truth, but presented false information anyways.
“but you also have to acknowledge that many of these congregations were already suffering from lack of growth”
I do not have to acknowledge falsehoods. You are opining about something you know next to nothing about, while I have spent my entire life in the Christian church. And you’ve misled people about Buddhism.
“and by accepting GLBT they will be ensuring that a part of the congregation will be loyal to that institution since other Christian institutions (especially in areas which church options are limited) would reject them.”
You assertion is naive at best.
“Besides, most people around my age (20) ,”
I have been studying Christianity for more than twice as long as you have been alive, and studying the specific issue of Christianity/Homosexuality for ten years longer than you have been alive.
“most people around my age (20 gay or straight, people refuse to worship at institutions that carry such prejudices.”
That is not true. While people of your generation poll as more supportive of GLBTQ equality than older generations, it does not carry through as consistently to religious participation.
“Also, I should have pointed out earlier in my comments that many may choose not to worship in traditional church settings, it would be a remiss not to mention the growing church house movements.”
The growing church house movement is predominantly conservative and evangelical in theology, particularly around the issue of homosexuality.
“As for you claims that I am an atheist,”
I did not claim, I interpret your less than sufficient disclosure. If you mislead people, you cannot blame them for being mislead.
“I think you should have read my words more carefully.”
I know that is advice you should live before you share it, and that you should learn to compose your words more carefully as well.
“Your anger towards atheist and agnostics is unhealthy.”
Really? Then the anger of GLBTQ people towards homophobes is also unhealthy, and the anger between the various sects of Buddhists who hate each other is also unhealthy. I am aware of Buddhism long history of sectarian violence – monks slaughtering other monks.
You are casting aspersions on me, because you made false claims either out of ignorance, or out of an intent to deceive.
“I understand why you are so defensive as your faith is going through difficulties,”
Actually, you do not understand much at all.
“but you would do well to read carefully the words of your fellow GLBT and atheist.”
You continued insinuations are reprehensible, and indicate that you have no accurate argument to make. You would do well to read accurately what I have provided, rather than fabricate false impressions about what I mean, present, or experience.
“Many of them have brought legitimate complaints”
Not a one here on Queerty, frankly.
Your assumption that I do not understand why some people chose to leave Christianity is both derogatory and arrogant. I know more about this issue that you realize, more than I have revealed here so far. My education on this matter goes back to before you were born.
If you learn nothing else, grasp the fact that there are people who have more knowledge and more life experience that you do, if only because they have been alive to study longer than you have, have experienced more than you have. At 20, you have no idea how little you know, and how much more you have to learn. That’s not a criticism, it is a truth about all people when they are merely 20 years old.
ewe
@Cassandra: Cassandra. You are a condescending cunt. fuck you too.
sekai
@Cassandra: I thought I could have a rational conversation with you about the subject, but after this statement “Actually, the most accepting “philosophies” is progressive Christianity.”, I have pretty much abandon all hope. I may not have lived or studied as long as you, but even I know “progressive Christianity” is not the most accepting philosophies. To even make such a statement is just plain arrogance. Have we forgotten about the earlier Native American tribes like Oglala Lakota and Yuki where GLBT were thought to have special powers and perform holy rituals? Paganism,especially Neopaganism, is by far more accepting of GLBT than both Buddhism and Christianity. We all could learn a lesson in love and spirituality from these groups.
By the way, I was never dishonest about Buddhism. If you actually read other post, you will see that I admit Buddhism in the East and West has it’s problems (i.e. the Eido Shimano). I wonder if you admit that “progressive Christianity” has it’s problems. But more than likely, you could not, your ego will not all you to do such. Despite the fact you are older than me, you lack maturity in your faith and it is showing. Lack of maturity in faith that makes people lash out at Atheist and anyone else who does not agree with you. It is behavior like the one you display on this blog which makes Richard Dawkin’s job so easy. Now , I am going to be the mature one here and end this conversation.
Cassandra
REBELComx
“Cassandra, how is your claim that atheists hate 99% of humanity any different from some of the atheistic claims about religion that you are equating to homophobia?”
Atheism has a single tenet or belief: There is no God. This is all atheism teaches, it has no other message. But this message intrinsically dismisses the testimony and experiences of 99% of humanity, and in doing so, strips those people of their humanity. As practiced by atheists in general, atheism is expressed in dreams of eradicating religion, of oppressing all religious people, declaring them all to be delusional, mentally ill, and so on. Unlike the atheist claims that I have accurately equated to homophobia, my claim is based entirely on an accurate evaluate of the sole tenet of atheism.
Further, there is a fundamental difference between atheism itself and religions. Atheism is not based on personal experience, it is a repudiation of other people’s personal experience. In other words, it is a negative judgment about billions of human beings, rather than a conclusion, affirmative or negative, about one’s own self or experiences.
In this way, atheism mirrors homophobia, which is not based on personal experience, but is a repudiation, a negative judgment about other people’s personal experience. Homophobia is a negative judgment about 10% of humanity, as atheism is a negative judgment about 99% of humanity.
Religion is based on personal experience, like sexual orientation. Criticism of spirituality – religion as a whole, to make a distinction between criticizing all of religion or a religion, and criticizing a particular belief or set of beliefs, is an attack on the person of all spiritual people – an attack on their experiences, their character, etc. Just as homophobia is intrinsically a personal attack on GLBTQ people. Now, you may deny that attack religion/spirituality is personal, but remember, homophobes insist that attacking gay sex/homosexuality is not personal either. The reality is that both spirituality and sexual orientation are intrinsically personal.
So, there is a fundamental difference between criticizing something innately personal, like spirituality or sexuality, and criticizing a negative constructed opinion about people.
If your criticism were accurate, then no one could criticize homophobes either.
“Aren’t you just as guilty of generalizing a view point and demonizing it as you claim the atheists are when they attempt to rebuff your beliefs?”
Nope. And tellingly, you provide no examples to substantiate your empty accusation.
“Just as guilty of spewing vile about one group of people as you claim they are?”
Not at all. Find a post where I have used obscenities, as SteveC has, or called billions of human beings delusional, or even mocked atheism.
You are raising these false issues because you cannot honestly refute what I have actually presented.
“You have attempted to put the comments of some atheists on the same level as those of homophobes several times,”
And instead of honestly challenging my thesis, you are making unsupported accusations instead. Clearly, you cannot disprove the accurate comparison I have presented.
“but aren’t you using the same methods you are protesting against?”
Not at all. And if I had been, you’d have been able to provide examples to support your accusation. Instead you chose only to make accusations.
“Your “atheist creed” could just as easily be applied to any strongly held opinion of faith (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, etc), or even your own held view of atheism.”
By a dishonest person, no doubt. Are you a dishonest person?
“You say that “What you believe, and possibly experience, doesn’t reflect the experiences of a majority…”, shouldn’t you also examine that attitude and apply it in regards to this debate and your own views on atheists?”
Do you recognize that my “views on atheists”, which are actually views on atheism, are derived directly from the sole tenet of atheism itself?
But again, you are attacking my credibility, rather than even attempt to refute anything I have actually presented. That is deeply unethical.
So now, are you not making base and unfounded accusations that you cannot substantiate solely to discredit me because you cannot refute what I have presented directly?
Does your moral/ethical system include an appreciation of honesty and a repudiation of deception?
“Also, Humanism and Buddhism are philosophies, not religions.”
I did not state that humanism is a religion, and Buddhism is generally listed as a religion.
“The majority of pagan sects embrace homosexuality.”
The many “pagans” I’ve encountered split up on the issue the same as the rest of the U.S. – 50/50. By the way, most of them recognize that the word pagan is derived from a pejorative, and at least are uncomfortable as being characterized by that word.
“And neither religion nor spirituality are necessary to have morals or ethics ”
You are clouding the issue yet again. How dishonest. Whether or not religion and spirituality is necessary for ethics and morals doesn’t change the fact that atheism itself contains neither ethics nor morals.
Nor can ethics and morals be derived from a purely scientific basis either. Quanta have no conscience.
“as those are based in our evolutionary/biologically designed emotion of empathy”
However, there is no evidence that this emotion of empathy is “evolutionary/biologically designed”. There are theories, of course, but to date, no one has demonstrated a link from the fundamentals of existence – subatomic particles, the laws of physics, the building blocks of everything, to morality and ethics.
Religions, generally, and Christianity in specific, teach that morality and ethics come directly from God.
“This is proven (varieties of primates have shown to have a sense of ethics based in empathy in the wild).”
No, that does not prove that empathy is “evolutionary/biologically designed”. It indicates that is appears in species other than humans. You are demonstrating one of the ways that so many atheists commit intellectual violence on science as well.
“Atheists are just as capable of adhering to morality and ethics as any person who has had them defined for them by religion.”
Again, you are avoiding the issue – the capabilities of atheists are not the issue, the fact that atheism itself expresses no morality or ethical code of conduct, and in fact, intrinsically violates the foundation of human morality, is the issue.
Because atheism does violate the foundation of human morality and relationships, it does at least suggest that atheists either are incapable of morality, or chose to turn it off and on at their convenience.
“But when they fail to adhere to those ethics, they do not have the luxury of creating a scapegoat out of gods or devils.”
Neither do people of faith. Do you have an accurate point to make?
“They can only blame themselves, recognize their weakness and deal with it.”
And yet, as evidenced here, those here at the very least, do not. Does this mean they have no capacity for morals and ethics, or simply chose to refuse to exercise it? Bearing in mind, atheism itself provides no standard of right and wrong, nothing by which to allocate blame or recognize weakness.
In contrast, the actual message of Christianity as least, and many other religions, requires self-awareness of one’s flaws, imperfections, faults and mistakes. Christianity has repentance and forgiveness, atheism rejects those notions, and, it is common to find atheist rejecting the very concept of right and wrong – as it applies to themselves.
I think that one of the core things that atheists hate about Christianity is that it tells they the are not perfect just the way they are, that they have flaws, that they are accountable for the harm they cause others or themselves.
Jeff K.
Someone who believes that worshiping Jesus washes away all one’s sins should not talk about accountability.
Cassandra
Sekai
sekai
“I thought I could have a rational conversation with you about the subject, but after this statement “Actually, the most accepting “philosophies” is progressive Christianity.”, I have pretty much abandon all hope.”
Ah, insult my intelligence and sanity as a substitute for a fact-based rebuttal.
I doubt you were actually interested in conversation, only in deceiving people. My statement that you dismiss without evidence, is factually accurate.
Progressive Christianity, such as that taught in UU’s and MCC’s, teaches that homosexuality is a gift from God, to be respected and cherish equal to heterosexuality.
“I may not have lived or studied as long as you, but even I know “progressive Christianity” is not the most accepting philosophies.”
Then you don’t know much.
“To even make such a statement is just plain arrogance.”
No, just the truth. Arrogance is what you are manifesting, frankly.
“Have we forgotten about the earlier Native American tribes like Oglala Lakota and Yuki where GLBT were thought to have special powers and perform holy rituals?”
Your deception will not go unnoticed. Your initial false statement was: “especially since their is more access to more welcoming philosophies than ever before in the history of U.S.”
How exactly do people today have access the “philosophies” of these ancient extinct or nearly extinct peoples? You are pulling a bait and switch, and that is not honest.
Paganism,especially Neopaganism, is by far more accepting of GLBT than both Buddhism and Christianity.”
Please do not lie. What you label paganism, using a derogatory term, is first of all, no where near as monolithic as you pretend, the entire movement is a collection oft-conflicting micro-religions, and the truth is, collectively they split on homosexuality the same as the rest of the U.S. and Europe, as the case may be. They reflect the degree of homophobia of the cultures they exist in.
“We all could learn a lesson in love and spirituality from these groups.”
Wiccans and their peers are no more advanced, and no worse,than anyone else.
“By the way, I was never dishonest about Buddhism.”
Actually you were, but, hey it served your purpose, right?
“I wonder if you admit that “progressive Christianity” has it’s problems.”
I know why you employ passive aggressive personal attacks.
“But more than likely, you could not, your ego will not all you to do such. ”
Because you cannot refute what I have said, you malign me directly. Projecting your issues onto me may lead you to insults that you find amusing, but, they have little power.
“Despite the fact you are older than me, you lack maturity in your faith and it is showing.”
Ah yeah, because I’m the one calling someone incapable of rational conversation. Right.
“Lack of maturity in faith that makes people lash out at Atheist ”
Really? So, when GLBTQ people lash out at homophobes, that is because of a lack of maturity too? Right? Maturity will lead you to recognize the flaw in your proclamation.
See, I rebuke and refute atheism because it intrinsically devalues the lives, experiences and testimony of most of humanity. I rigorously fight anti-gay theology because it intrinsically devalues the lives, experiences and testimony of millions of people. I fight sexism and racism for the same reasons. My resistance to injustice comes out of maturity.
Lack of maturity is what makes people lie about the experiences of millions and millions of human beings, as you and the atheists here have done, or think that insults and obscenities make an appropriate, useful argument. Lack of maturity is revealed in simplistic thinking, in relying on attacking someone’s intelligence or sanity, in place of refuting their material, on grandstanding “I’m the mature one” nonsense coupled with attempts to have the last word.
You don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to Christianity, got in way over your head about matters you are poorly informed about. Now your ego requires that you lash out with insult after insult.
I am curious to see if you have the maturity to actually live up to your promise (end this conversation.) by not responding. I know that game, Sekai, launch a tirade and then claim “this conversation is over” to prevent rebuttal. It didn’t work of course, so now what do you do? If you post again, then you lied when you said you were going to end the conversation.
Cassandra
“Someone who believes that worshiping Jesus washes away all one’s sins should not talk about accountability.”
Someone who doesn’t understand Christian theology shouldn’t use it to cast aspersions on others.
Adherents of a value system that contains no sense of right and wrong, no notion of accountability, shouldn’t raise either issue.
justiceontherocks
Oh Cassandra Cassandra. Everyone who disagree is with you is insulting you and not basing their arguments on fact. They don’t understand faith. They have no ethics or morality. They hurt your feelings. Boo hoo hoo.
Sorry Billy Graham, you’re not making any converts. You don’t make any sense. You know everything. The rest of us know nothing. Now go back to your ex-gay meeting and leave us the hell alone.
REBELComx
@justiceontherocks: Ya know…I was going to respond to her attempt to break down my questions…until I read your comment. So all I can say is this –
Matthew 7:4 – How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
Don’t feed the trolls.
declanto
@sekai: I find your rebuttal compassionately accurate. This displays the missing component to this entire debate, compassion. Where is the generosity of forgiveness that should be the fundament of any system of beliefs? I see only the greedy joy of devastating the opposing side. @Cassandra: You are a technically accomplished debater, but your ego does not allow you to see the value of your “opponent” objectively. You need a good dose of generosity and compassion, dear.
tallskin2
@Declanto- “@Cassandra: You are a technically accomplished debater”
You cannot be serious? Can anyone, honestly, tell me that they have managed to reach the end of one of her twisted, manic diatribes?
I mean to try and unpick the sense from the twisted weave of hate-filled illogic makes my head spin.
I assume you’re trying to be nice.
declanto
@tallskin2: How astute! Niceness would, in the light of the Queenie viciousness of this “debate” be a refreshing breeze. By “skilled” I imply “adroit at misleading, confusing, half-true, uncompromising, egoistic bull excrement. This is the difference between religion and practice, doctrine and faith. Here there is no room for humility, forgiveness, or generosity of spirit.
Jeffree
Cassandra resorted to name-calling, “spoiled brat” and “bigot” which, by her/his own logic, means s/he no longer has valid arguments to make.
Equating the objections to religion
{by non-theists} with the homophobes stance against gay people is fundamentally flawed: I don’t try to convert the religious into non-theists, nor the straights into gay, but the Christians try to convert non-believers into their theology and to change gays into straights.
Cassandra ‘s anger toward people who do not share the Faith is overwhelmingly obvious and offputting. My posts toward her 1000+ word essays have never come from a place of anger, but of disbelief.
In calling me a “brat” Cassandra has ceded any moral high ground.
Cassandra
declanto
“but your ego does not allow you to see the value of your “opponent” objectively. You need a good dose of generosity and compassion, dear.”
Ad hominem is a lousy communication skill, declanto. You demonstrated that you cannot refute anything I actually wrote, and so must resort to be personally abusive and degrading in the misguided hope that you will drive me away.
The more insulting you are, the more the accuracy of my material is revealed.
justiceontherocks
“Oh Cassandra Cassandra. Everyone who disagree is with you is insulting you and not basing their arguments on fact.”
By exagerating to such an extreme, and ignoring the specificity of my assertions, you prove that you are devoted to promoting prejudice. Your endorsement of vulgarity and deception reflects poorly on you.
Perhaps your posts, and those by your peers, are the very best evidence against atheism there is.
“Sorry Billy Graham, you’re not making any converts.”
You are sadly mistaken about my reason for posting.
“You don’t make any sense.”
Ah, but if that were really true, you and your peers, or sockpuppets, would have no need to vilify me. You and your peers attack me because what I present does make sense, and you are desperate to discredit me lest anyone else take my message to heart.
“You know everything. The rest of us know nothing.”
You are projecting, which is both sad and typical. After all, the heart of atheism is the egomanical belief that atheists just know the real truth of the lives and experiences of most of humanity, and everyone else is blind, deluded, etc.
“Now go back to your ex-gay meeting”
That is a great reminder of the strong correspondence between atheists and ex-gays. Both are in denial, both assert that their denial is the real truth, not only for their own lives, but for everyone else as well. Again, you are essentially projecting, you’ve pulled a comparison to your own position out of your own guilty conscience to use on me. And then used it on someone with an establish history of refuting the ex-gay/reparative therapy charade.
“and leave us the hell alone.”
What an ironic display of dominance behavior – since you don’t like what I say, you order me to leave. Homophobes do that too, you know, demanding that GLBTQ people go back in the closet, shut and go away, leave.
Homophobes, when I refute anti-gay theology, behave in exactly the same way that you, and tallskin, declanto, etc behave. Racists, when challenged on their prejudice, behave the same way. So too with misogynists, and every other bigot. Basically, anytime someone is caught out in the wrong, promoting something wrong, destructive, deceitful or malicious, they behave as you and your peers have behaved.
Too bad that correlation doesn’t mean something to you, but it ought to get you to stop and think about what you say and believe and do.
And of course, the abusive behavior, from the obscenities to the empty snipes at my character, intelligence and sanity, only act as evidence against the theory that atheists are capable of ethical or moral behavior. Your behavior here makes the case that without God, you and your peers are not even capable of being civil, much less moral or ethical.
Jeffree
@Cassandra: Was calling me a “spoiled brat” and a “bigot” civil, moral, ethical or Christian?
Ogre Magi
Cassandra just about every one here dislikes you. Why don’t you take your proselytizing elsewhere!
Cassandra
Jeffree
Distorting what I said to formulate a false accusation, is dishonest.
“Cassandra resorted to name-calling, “spoiled brat” ”
No, I did not. I characterized your behavior, not you, in that way. Here’s the direct quote:
“So until you get your way, you will behave like a spoiled brat and a bigot.”
Note that this is a description of your behavior, not you as a person.
“and “bigot” ”
But this is the really interesting part, because homophobes routinely insist that when they are called ‘bigot’ it is name-calling, and as you said, means that those who use the word have no valid argument to make.
Do you understand what this means? Not only are you again parroting the tactics of homophobes, but your premise would mean that no GLBTQ person can ever call any homophobe a bigot. In trying to escape criticism, you are trying to take an accurate descriptor that GLBTQ people use with those who oppress us, out of use.
“means s/he no longer has valid arguments to make.”
Of course, your little dishonest chide is presented in place of any honest rebuttal to any point I made.
“Equating the objections to religion
{by non-theists} with the homophobes stance against gay people is fundamentally flawed: I don’t try to convert the religious into non-theists,”
That is dishonest, besides irrelevant. Atheists continually attempt, by coercion and abuse, to convert people of faith to atheism. Here, on this thread, several people attempted such conversions. And more importantly, atheists on-line frequently assert their dream of eradicating religion completely, which would require either conversion or oppression.
But your argument is itself useless, because it does not address, much less negate, the core equivalency between religion and sexual orientation, and between the prejudice of homophobia and the prejudice of atheism.
You are simply trying to use a false hood, and a false comparison, to dismiss something you cannot refute directly.
“Cassandra ‘s anger toward people who do not share the Faith is overwhelmingly obvious”
You are projecting again. After all, I am not the one here who has libeled most of humanity, nor resorted to obscenities, or encouraged the oppression of anyone. Nor have I lied, a problem you fell into more than once.
“My posts toward her 1000+ word essays have never come from a place of anger, but of disbelief.”
So you say, but your posts indicate otherwise.
“In calling me a “brat” Cassandra has ceded any moral high ground.”
And by lying about what I actually wrote, you acknowledge that you never had any moral high ground to begin with.
Your personal attack simply demonstrates that you cannot honorably refute the material I presented to you.
Let’s look again your claim
“If someone would please let me know when the *Majority* of Christians believe that homosexuality is NOT a sin, I will gladly attend a church. At least once.”
To which I replied:
“I have lost count of how many times some homophobe has declared “As soon as the majority of homosexuals denounce NAMBLA, I will support gay rights”. Bigots are always calling for the other side to meet their demands. You are no different.”
Instead of addressing this striking and disturbing parallel, you falsely accused me of name-calling.
Doesn’t it bother you at all to find yourself using exactly the same argument that bigots use against GLBTQ people? If only we all would denounce NAMBLA, they say, they would support us. If only we would all denounce drag queens, or leather daddies, or men who have sex in the bushes in Warm Sands, or men who go to sex clubs, or men with AIDS, then they would recognize the humanity of the rest of us.
This is a pretty serious thing. When homophobes pull this mess on GLBTQ people, we realize the gross immorality and intrinsic oppression of such a offer. Yet you use it on people of faith, and in doing so, stoop to the same moral level of Fred Phelps, or Focus on the Family.
And I pointed out:
“The reality, Jeffree, is that more and more Christians are rejecting anti-gay theology, and there are several denominations that as a whole, reject anti-gay theology.”
The truth is that progressive Christian communities, like UFMCC, are leading the way to ending anti-gay theology. Atheists are not contributing to that effort, their denunciations of religion, and Christianity itself, as a “gay” position, create obstacles to ending anti-gay theology and homophobia.
How, you might ask if you actually cared? Simple. When atheists say “Gay rights now, religion is a fraud” – the message they send to heterosexual people of faith is that in order to recognize the humanity of GLBTQ people, they must abandon something that is as meaningful, and beautiful, to them, as same-sex relationships are to GLBTQ people. The stunning greediness, and abusiveness, of that demand, creates a barrier to acceptance for them. They feel that they cannot even reconsider anti-gay theology, because they are led to believe by atheists, that it requires rejecting God as well.
The comment of mine that you misrepresented was in response to this statement of yours:
“Until then, I won’t try to talk Christians out of their beliefs but I will treat them like I do astrologists and palm readers: with bemusement. They’re just so quaint!”
So, please, explain how treating people in a dismissive, degrading, objectifying way, simply because they will not all accede to your abusive demand, is moral or ethical, civil, decent, or acceptable behavior.
Then you can explain how it is not stereotypical behavior of bigots, or behavior that little children engage in when they cannot get their way.
Otherwise, I stand by my assessment of your behavior. If you want to insist that this behavior defines you as a person as well, that is up to you, but at least own that, rather than attribute it to me.
Cassandra
Jeffree
Was lying about what I said typical atheist behavior, or does it reflect only on you?
Cassandra
Jeffree
There is a larger issue than your deceitfulness in your complaint about my criticism of your behavior.
Essentially, you are really complaining about having your behavior criticized, and that creates the impression that you are to be exempt from any criticism of your behavior, that you can use the word bigot to describe homophobes, but comparable criticism is unacceptable when directed at you?
Why? Because its directed at you. That means that you see yourself, or wish to be seen, as if nothing you ever do is wrong.
Many atheists on line articulate their belief that the very notion of sin is wrong, oppressive, evil, etc. But what they are rejecting is the idea that some things are wrong, harmful, destructive, and other things are good, acceptable, uplifting.
Knowingly or not, they are rejecting morality and ethics, and often, as you have done, they only reject this foundation of right and wrong when it applies to their behavior. Right and wrong cannot be applied to them, as “bigot” is not to be applied to even your behavior, even as you, and atheists in general, judge and pass sentence on everyone else in the world.
Essentially, your posts indicate that your moral high ground is your ego, wants and prejudices.
Jeffree
Cassandra: You called me a spoiled brat.
Were you “close to God” when you said that? Did you behave as Jesus would have you do? Will you apologize?
By your own logic, that name calling means you are out of actual arguments. I expected better than that from you.
I wish you peace. Despite your unethical, immoral, un-Christian outburst, I will not fall into your own level of deception. Praying about your anger issues and your vitriol might be of help to you.
justiceontherocks
Jeffree, Jeffree, Jeffree. You’re a deceitful bigot because you disagree with a C. I’m a deceitful bigot because I disagree with a C. We (and almost all the regular readers) should seek therapy immediately or else we’ll be . . . well, it’s just too awful to think about.
Billysees
@declanto:
It’s a terrible shame that some of the religious among us cannot acknowledge the moral and ethical capability of atheists.
I’ve known many an atheist and have considered some greater than myself. I think the Book is responsible for this and it’s unfortunate too.
Keep doing good and you’ll be seen for the good that you are and the cobwebs in the Book will be revealed.
declanto
@Billysees: I acknowledge the need for a system of belief which gives each person the tools to socially coexist for the betterment of society as a whole.
I acknowledge the contributions of Christianity and the other Abrahamic faiths to our present state of enlightened democracies.
I acknowledge the independent scepticism of the atheists.
declanto
@Cassandra: “Adherents of a value system that contains no sense of right and wrong, no notion of accountability, shouldn’t raise either issue.”
You equate all atheists as nihilistic profligates.
“In the meantime, Atheism is a prejudice whose only tenet is the rejection of the experiences of most of humanity, a truly wicked thing. Atheists chose this wicked thing, and engage in subsequent wicked, destructive, abusive behaviors. Their belief system extols no virtue.”
Atheism is NOT a belief system by definition. To call them wicked is prejudicial in the extreme, i.e.bigotry. And still, you offer no evidence that atheism is INHERENTLY evil. If a rejection of the experiences of most of humanity constitutes wickedness, then the world is flat, the earth revolvesaround the sun, illness is caused by evil spirits ad infinitum. How tedious it must be to juggle all this silliness with the facts of modern science.
While you insist that all wars are fought for worldly gain and religion is misused as an excuse for warfare, there are countless examples to show you how wrong that is. The genocide of the Cathars, the crusades, Bin Laden’s jihad, how many mass-murders are enough to convince you? Obviously, you’re beyond reasoning with. You misuse your intellect to destroy. I think that should qualify as a sin.
PHOENIX
No.20 & 21 SteveC,yr tongue and fingers shud be cut off
for yr vile comments on God Almighty.If u were in front of
me……
declanto
@PHOENIX: Go crawl back under your rock in Weston. If he were in front of you, you’d be on your knees.
Billysees
Well said…
Billysees
@declanto: Well said…