AB: I know that you started – well, obviously you're a big grass roots organizer and you never really abandoned that mission, but you've also worked within campaigns, you worked with Eugene McCarthy and all that. So, I want you thoughts on the pros and cons of working within and without the system.

DM: I've never found it to be an either/or. Some people did find that it had to be either/or. I've always said that I'm the best outsider on the inside. I would work for campaigns, whether it was Eugene McCarthy or Bobby Kennedy or local officials, but I also would go down south and get arrested and go to jail – I've been to jail about a dozen times for the things I believe in. I would organize the Iowa Caucuses for McCarty and then resist the draft. For me it's never been an either/or. Somehow I've been able to get away with it, but I don't know how! I just refuse to be confined to one path.

AB: One of the pretty essential things that you've done is that you were a founding member of the Municipal Election Committee of Los Angeles, which was the nation's first gay PAC. Obviously we have many more gay PACs around and some of them have become pretty ingrained in Washington, like HRC has a PAC and they have been criticized in many ways – including by this website and myself – for becoming so ingrained that they have lost some of the -

DM: The luster.

AB: Yes, that's a good word. So, how can an organization such as HRC or the Task Force – organizations that are in the halls of Washington – keep their luster while so ingrained?

DM: I guess one of the true signs of equality is that we indeed can become like anyone else. Our organizations within the beltway at times can be as removed from what's happening outside as any other organization inside the beltway, whether it's the NRA or the National Education Association. I think by nature of the beast, having to work on legislation and being based in Washington DC, that it's very difficult to be a leading force out in the states, especially when issues are moving as fast as the marriage equality issues. I have always historically found Washington organizations catching up with local movements. Obviously the Task Force has more of an outreach into constituencies and organizations and has done a better job of redefining itself constantly as a grassroots organization. The HRC has become more and more of a traditional Washington organization, a PAC, a lobbying organization. The true test for all of our national organizations is how they respond to the epic battle that's going to take place in California this November. We’ll see what they're made of – I'm eager to see what they're going to be doing.