In the world of online sex, Craigslist is the 21st Century equivalent of the Rambles; a place where your darkest desires can be fulfilled– bare backing, anonymous groups, “party and play” scenes and for veteran New York WABC radio anchor George Weber, a fantasy of being choked while having oral sex.
What he found was 16-year old John Katehis of Queens, a self-professed anarchist and Satanist who went over to Weber’s apartment with the promise of rough sex and $60. What Weber got was his own grisly death. Katehis bound him with duct tape and stabbed him over 50 times, according to the police. The combination of cocaine, vodka, a sociopathic teenager and a man looking to allow the teen’s disturbing fantasies to come to life were the perfect tinder for a murderous powder keg. Should the site which brought them all together be held responsible?
A recent lawsuit by the Cook’s County Sherriff’s office would say, ‘Yes’. On March 6th, Sheriff Tom Dart announced a federal lawsuit against Craigslist, saying the site has become “the largest source of prostitution in America.” It’s not the first time the site has been sued for its ads. A lawsuit last year based on discriminatory housing ads was tossed out by the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which ruled that the San-Francisco based company was not responsible for the content of the ads, but Dart says the “Erotic Services” section of the site is different. At a press conference, Dart said,
“They are not passive. They are actively involved with this… We put up … one saying 14-year-old looking for sex. That ad wasn’t taken down. It sat out there until we took it down.”
Craigslist made an agreement with attorneys general in Connecticut, Illinois and other states last November to crack down on illegal ads and CEO Craig Newmark said they would monitor the site’s “erotic services” section by requiring a credit card and phone number from all who posted ads.
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In practice, Craigslist continues to offer up illegal services. It’s not hard to find. A search for “m4m party” on the “erotic services” section on the site offers up ads like this one:
“HEY,(OUTCALLS,OUTCALLS) U WANT REGRET IT!!!!!! LOOKING TO PLEASE U GENEROUS GUYS ONLY WHO WANNA HAVE SOME FUN TONIGHT I AM 5’11 138 LIGHT BROWN SKIN BROWN EYES MIXED BLANTINO VERY GOOD AND SERIOUS ACT WHAT I DO SMOOTH SKIN TONED BODY NICE PACKAGE HERE NOW TO PLAY SAFE FOR MORE INFO CALL NOW [redacted phone number and name] (PARTY DO U?) NO BLOCKED CALLS SERIOUS REPLIES ONLY!!! READY WHEN U R!!!!!!!FAVORS HERE “
Beyond the obvious prostitution angle, this escort all but says he’s offering drugs (“favors”), as well.
A search for the phrase “generous” on the New York m4m site brought up over 75 unique ads for March 25th alone. An example is this one line ad:
“skinny teen boy looking to give head to a generous guy in the UES area. you host. d/d free only. looking for now “
His age is not listed.
Craigslist maintains that it is simply a conduit for people and that it’s not responsible for what happens on the site, but police forces across the country beg to differ. Law enforcement officials in Kentucky and New York have set up Craigslist Prostitution Task Forces. Last week, Minneapolis police took down to underage prostitution rings on Craigslist. Sgt. Grant Snyder told the Minneapolis Star Tribune:
“The majority of juvenile prostitution takes place on Craigslist. Craigslist gives people the perception of anonymity, and it’s easy for anybody to put up an ad.”
Weber’s murder puts Craiglist’s claims of innocence to the test. It’s hard to imagine the 16 year-old Katehis and Weber could have met up through any other medium. Even gay sex sites like Adam4Adam and Manhunt have a band of administrators who monitor the ads and many require a traceable credit card of their users. Craigslist, by comparison, depends on users to police the site; a policy that has enabled it to become a wholesale warehouse of underage sex, prostitution and drug use. Craigslist’s position that it is merely a conduit for others to connect to each other is at the core of the Internet’s belief that it ought to be an open and free space for all, but were Craigslist an actual, physical location, it would have been raided by the police and shut down ages ago.
The Internet is no longer the wild West and you’d be hard-pressed to find any man, woman or child in America who doesn’t have access to it. Yet, all the freedom and accessibility comes at a price. Katehis is a product of the Internet Age– His presence is scattered across the web, with profiles on MySpace, porn site XTube, Facebook and YouTube. Based on the photos of him brandishing knives and displaying pentagram tattoos, he’s clearly a disturbed young man and Weber took a lethal risk in inviting the teen to his apartment for risky sex, but Craigslist made their connection disturbingly easy. Is there such a thing as too much freedom?
Alan
Grizzly are bears. “Grisly” is the word you’re looking for. Shame you made the mistake in the title so it’s captured in the URL…
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grisly for reference.
averageguy40
I’m amazed when people want to play the blame game. The people to blame in this incident are unfortunately the victim and the murderer. No one else. Everyone involved new the risk of meeting strangers on the internet. Taking responsibility for your own actions is becoming a thing of the past. No wonder things aren’t getting any better.
Gurlene
I can’t wait to hear what pill popping, viagra using Rush Limbaugh has to say about this. Or is he (Limbaugh) also on the list (craigslist) and that is why he is remaining silent?
J
Is Craigslist responsible? Huh? Are you stupid?
jason
Craigslist didn’t murder anyone. A very evil person murdered George Weber. When your tastes run to the kinky side, you’ve got to be careful even when you’re meeting someone in a bar, let alone on a website which attracts all sorts of unvetted people.
Dan Cullinane
yeah, i agree with the other guys on here. as gross as everything about this story is, and as sad as it is that a 16-year-old is caught up in it, it’s not the fault of the ad. like you said, it’s the fault of the people involved. stuff like this happened way before craigslist, and its gonna happen if craigslist goes away. sick people find sick people and sick stuff happens, with or without an expedited service. the question of too much freedom doesn’t apply to craigslist. it applies to people who let their compulsions get in the drivers seat, and restricting that kind of freedom is not possible.
besides, craigslist is amazing for all kinds of reasons that don’t have to do with sex. let’s leave the online community alone to evolve, effectively enforce existing sexual predator laws when it comes to underage boys, and urge the guys involved in self-destructive behavior to find more positive and healthy outlets.
CF
Its a tough call. The ads are what they are… “ads”. I think there needs to be a bit more focus on the “age” factor. Lets be honest… an adult is responsible for their actions. A website which knows they are promoting illegal services SHOULD be more responsible in controling the age of the user. I am sure many of us have had a “hookup” which made us feel a bit unsafe, we knew the risks when we participated, or agreed to that said hookup. We need to keep in mind that many children do NOT have supervision, and that leads to exploitation.
Adam
Funny, I always assumed that ‘generous’ referred to the possession of a large dick.
hardmannyc
Build it and they will come. The bar doesn’t cause the alcoholic, and the kitchen knife doesn’t cause the murder. Craigslist had nothing to do with Weber’s “grizzly” (was this a play on his being a bear? Or are you just illiterate?) murder.
Jesse
@Adam: same here
steve tabarez
WEBER GOT WHAT HE WANTED. HE KNEW THE RISKS. AS FOR JUVENILES BEING ABLE TO POST ADS, CRAIGSLIST IS RESPONSIBLE. I PERSONALLY ABHOR INERNET DATING, HOOK-UPS, AND THE LIKE. WE ARE BETTER THAN THAT.
Gurlene
@hardmannyc: Thank you. That is also my opinion more or less on gun control. Guns do not kill people. People kill people.
Do we now ban craigslist? Do we now ban samurai swords for honest people who appreciate the art and culture of the samurai? Do we now ban cadillacs because a wealthy Texas socialite used hers to run over her spouse repeatedly? I think not.
This little hoodlum took advantage of a drunken, drugged out pervert who fantasized about death and he finally found out what it would be like to die. Unfortunaltely the little hoodlum featured here is also going to find out what happens to smart mouth little boys when they are thrown into the general prison population with HARDENED MURDERERS who will never in their lives get out of prison nor have access to women. He is their next best thing to virgin pussy, even though I suspect “his” has been touched several times by those with the right price or a toy was used instead.
steve tabarez
@gurlene. Yeah, he’ll learn what rough trade really is. On the outside tho, our gay mens fetishes for rough lil boys comes with a price. SAD.
Gin
If you read his Brooklyn blog, you’ll see that George Weber was ultra conservative and closeted. He railed against the liberal media, and wrote semi-frequently about gays as if he were observing a demographic species. Oddly, he included a posting about a gay person interested in being smothered as evidence of the bizarre personals one could find online.
His murder is horrific, and I am in no way attempting to diminish sympathy for him, but I can’t help but wonder what role being closeted, lonely and desperate may have played in leading Weber to the sad situation his life had become.
gay numbers
Yes, Craigslist, and the hookup culture involved is a factor.
The cause? No. A factor? Yes. Why? Because there is the potential for recklessness and often a complete lack of awareness of who people are.
Yes, people can do whatever they want. No, that does not mean we must pretend an environment (A site that promotes behaviors by a community of participants) is not a factor into self destructive behavior.
This is the least of the dangers of hook-up culture. I am more worried about the spread of disease and long term emotional implications.
Mister C
Hey Gin, I read the same story. Where he said Obama had nice ideas but he was more likely to vote for McCain. It’s HORRIFIC what happened to him. May God be with his family at such a time. And I hope that younging gets it once he’s locked up NO SYMPATHY for him at all he will a freaky bottom once out of jail. But I personally think he will commit suicide once incarcerated
But I don’t understand Gays with such mentality like Weber. You don’t have to be a screaming liberal. But why would you support folks who would hurt the very community you’re a part of?????
And I just had to say this. So much for everyone blaming African Americans in reference to “The Down Low” I guess they’re not the only ones who practices that policy!
Tony
This is definitely a tragedy. My question is what was Mr. Weber doing with a 16 year old boy? What the 16 year old did was wrong, but did Mr. Weber really think a 16 year old kid would be appropriate for sex let alone the psychology behind rough sex?
Scott in NYC
The problem I have with this train of thought is “The site made them do it.” You have a satanic-worshipping nutcase of a kid and a guy who either didn’t check out his profile/pics or did and was unbothered by what he saw. On top of that, Weber trusts him enough, having never met the guy before, to tie him up and completely incapacitate him with no chance of defending himself. Really…why is this Craigslist’s fault? At what point does personal responsiblity/discretion come into play?
manimal347
I think of Craigslist as a user-moderated bazaar; slightly more proactive than Bittorent trackers, but far more hands-off then a site like Ebay. Since they don’t screen ads, not even for removal, as I understand the law, they have no responsibility for the content on their servers. As for George? He screened the man Web 1.0-style, getting coffee before letting him into his house. I generally disdain blaming victims, and given his flash of wisdom here, I’m going to have to say I don’t like how people are making it out to be his fault. Actually, I think people are letting their morality dictate his culpability, disgusted by his rough-play p’n’p encounter with a minor.
Dabq
Craigslist is only responsible for letting a kid post on the site, if, you are into that s/m thing, I thought you did it with people who understood what the lifestyle was about and the boundaries within it, this kid was mentally disturbed and the victim found out the hard way.
You bring a stranger into your home for sex, you had better be ready to deal with the consequences.
steve tabarez
@Manimal. So his taste for rough lil boys doesn’t enter into it? If it comes out he had met other rough lil boys does that not mean anything? And despite the murderers profile, he entered into the arrangement anyway? And he met him before the liason? Come on. That a youth was willing to sell himself in itself says the boy had his share of problems. Ones that most men who feed their boy lust, seek to exploit. On top of Weber knowing the risks. You seem to want to absolve him of his culpability and responsibility in this. Wasn’t he the “adult” here? And he was a victim here. But, a victim of self as much as that psycho boy.
Doc Holliday
Another freak show, like the one you guys wrote about in DC –
http://whomurderedrobertwone.com
B F
Hey, self regulation works for Wall Street, Bernie Madoff and the SEC – why wouldn’t it work the rest of the underground economy?
rjb
I’m far more inclined to believe that the boy acted in self defense. You have a lot of repression and risky behavior going on in this situation.
“Violent sex” going too far— I’d guess a grown man would grasp the complexities of that before a 16 year old. The kid freaks, pulls the knife he may have brought for protection, and there you have it. It’s terribly sad and disturbing but the narrative of this kid being the main character in a slasher film seems inflated.
Gruesome though disturbing does not have to mean premeditated.
mademark
Craigslist is a cesspool. They don’t police their ads, its a giant marketplace for hookers and illegal transactions, and to say they are an innocent player is nonsense. It reminds me of the bath house controversy in the 1980s. I lived in L.A. then and I remember protests when the city wanted to shut down the baths. A lot of gay men made it a civil rights issues, meanwhile patronizing establishments that were killing us. I’ll take a closed bath house over a dozen dead friends any day. Anyone trolling online for sex has to accept the risks, but this libertarian defense of Craigslist is misguided. An online brothel is still a brothel and they should be sued out of existence.
lady kier
that’s like suing central park for rape when you were strolling thru at 3:00 a.m.
Chitown Kev
Now of course, this was happening to gay men long before Craigslist came around vis-a-vis those ads and classifieds in the back of gay and even mainstream publications for years. And yes, it has always been with the knowledge that there was danger involved, at least for me. And I’ll be frank, yeah, I have gotten off on the danger of it.
Simply put, know what you are getting into when you do this. This case will curb this a bit or gay men will use more specialized sites to get these services.
sbs94553
dont blame craigslist. the punk trapped the old man. i wish they had the death penalty in NY.
hardmannyc
“I’ll take a closed bath house over a dozen dead friends any day.”
Yeah, because we all know that once the baths were closed all gay men had safe sex.
Yikes!
Craigslist is NOT responsible for the murder, but is responsible for it’s content that is allowed and posted, and if that content is illegal in any way, they should be held accountable for breaking the law and imposed a hefty fine at the very least.
Clearly in the ‘erotic services’ section, a credit card should be use to affirm the legal age of the poster. There needs to be more oversite on the part of Craigslist as it lists what is allowed and prohibited on it’s site, yet clearly if you do a search, there are many postings that are prohibited and not taken off (flagged) by Craigslist.
Inviting a random stranger over to your house is a very risky scenerio if someone finds their posting on craiglist, just like it is potentially dangerous to invite a stranger over that one has met at a bar.
The man who was murdered despite his fetishes should not have been met with the brutality of being stabbed to death. No one deserves that fate, regardless if he was committing an illegal act with a minor.
My condolences to George Weber’s family. May he rest in peace.
Scott in NYC
@rjb:
The kid pulls a knife and repeatedly stabs Weber (and his background and interests seem to suggest he was into this sort of thing)…and it’s just rough sex gone too far?
Self-defense? The guy was tied up!!!!!
Come on, everyone. A fucked up 16 year-old Satan Worshipper lied about his age and used the promise of rough sex to murder someone in cold blood. Keep the finger of blame pointed in the right direction and stop excusing the murderer.
Tim in SF
@gay numbers: The cause? No. A factor? Yes. Why? Because there is the potential for recklessness and often a complete lack of awareness of who people are.
CL is a “factor” in this murder in the same sense that a gay club or a gay bookstore or a public park in a gay neighborhood was a factor in the AIDS epidemic.
You can’t make the world safe against stupidity. And every time you try, it ruins it for the rest of us.
Tim in SF
@Scott in NYC: “On top of that, Weber trusts him enough, having never met the guy before, to tie him up and completely incapacitate him with no chance of defending himself.”
Statistically, it’s probably a safe assumption. Your odds are probably much higher of slipping, hitting your head and dying in your own bathroom or getting killed in a car wreck on the way to the grocery store.
People forget that we live in a dangerous world.
Tim in SF
@steve tabarez:
WEBER GOT WHAT HE WANTED. HE KNEW THE RISKS.
and
You seem to want to absolve him of his culpability and responsibility in this. Wasn’t he the “adult” here? And he was a victim here. But, a victim of self as much as that psycho boy.
and
our gay mens fetishes for rough lil boys comes with a price. SAD.
Hey Steve! You forgot to say:
– Women who wear short skirts deserved to get raped.
– Black guys who date white women in the south deserve to get lynched.
and
– Gay guys who get fucked in the ass deserve to get AIDS.
Any other blame-the-victim lines am I missing?
rjb
@Scott in NYC:
I guess I think there is likely more to it then kid is crazy “satan worshiper.” He hunted down and murdered Weber.
That is movie stuff and more often then not the real world is uglier and less sensational.
“Satan worshiper” is the sort of silly self-identity that kids adopt to piss off their parents. I’d feel pretty confident saying that most real “satan worshipers” don’t list it on their myspace page. To me it is short hand.
Obviously the guy was horrifically murdered and that is tragic. But I don’t think it is impossible to think that his fantasy for violent sex went to far and the kid he chose to live out this fantasy with stopped thinking it was a fantasy. To me that seems very possible.
I also think it is simplistic to title what Weber was looking for rough sex. Am I the only one that would think there is a world of difference between rough sex and violent sex? To me it’s the difference between liking anal sex hard and fast and liking anal sex with someone choking you til you pass out. Just saying.
Wayne
Where were the kid’s parents in all this….. 16 years old with knives and unrestricted access to the internet, running around the city at night?
I wasn’t allowed that freedom at that age. The parents are as responsible as the child and should be prosecuted alongside him.
Ben
I’ve been wondering the same thing: Where were his parents? Did they know about his…activities?
The whole thing is just so sad. Too many factors of cause and effect at work for any of it make sense in a blame game.
Raul
Its funny how he had a profile on XTube and was only 16. As you know this is a site that features hard core porn. Goes to show how little such web sites give a damn about giving minors access to hardcore porn, and they even make money off it! And the government allows it. Pretty twisted.
The Gay Numbers
@Tim in SF: Do you notice what you did there? I describe the situation. Your response is to prescribe the solution. I have no idea what the solution might be. I am simply answering the question if it’s a factor or not. The problem with you trying to prescribe conversations that are just trying to establish what something is that you cut off any sense of reality. Did you ever think the furthest I might want to go is getting gay men to be honest in their assessment of our environment and how it influences our behavior. Perhaps, that, in and of itself, is an important conversation. I do not see how bring this up is stopping people from being stupid. Your point is a little like arguing that discussing STDs prevents people from having sex. We discuss it to produce better results for people’s lives. Indeed, hook p culture hurts gays in a lot of ways. Not just physical, but emotionally. I don’t mean gays as the individual. I mean gays as in gays as a group. There may have been a pre-Internet time where hook ups were more than what they are now. But now, there is nothing more than what Craigslist presents.
Kid A
@Tim in SF:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
steve tabarez
Ezactly Kid A. EXACTLY.
The Gay Numbers
@Kid A: Also agree.
Tim in SF
@The Gay Numbers: Do you notice what you did there? I describe the situation. Your response is to prescribe the solution.
My response was to disagree with your description of Craigslist as a contributing factor to the man’s murder. Factor: One that actively contributes to an accomplishment, result, or process. Craigslist is not, in fact, a factor in this murder. Craigslist is little more than a milieu for communication. You might as well blame The Telephone for phone scams or The Automobile for bank robberies. I mean, you certainly can but I suspect you would not.
The problem with you trying to prescribe conversations that are just trying to establish what something is that you cut off any sense of reality.
I don’t see how disagreeing with you equates to dictating what will be discussed in this comment thread or cuts off anything. (I will admit that it is possible, due to the poor grammar of your sentence, that I might be misinterpreting what you are saying.)
Your point is a little like arguing that discussing STDs prevents people from having sex.
Your analogy is nonsensical. Try again.
Tim in SF
@Kid A: Sorry, kid, there’s no strawman in my post.
1. Dumbass made argument A.
2. I compared his argument A to argument X, and left it at that.
A strawman would be continuing on arguing against argument X. I think if you were to read the examples on the page from the link you sent, you would understand the concept a bit better.
@steve tabarez: Hey Steve, how much does it suck to be quoted accurately when you spew such hateful shit?
Phil
If Weber was an old man as some here call him, I am ancient. Ancient enough to remember life in New York before the web was a gleam in Tim Berners-Lee’s eyes.
Back then a few times a year the Post would publish stories of gay men being murdered in various parks while having/seeking sex or after hooking up with someone in a bar, or just meeting on the street (or answering a ringing pay phone on the corner). What about the case of Andrew Crispo and Bernard Legaros who murdered Eigil Vesti after meeting him in the Limelight? Michael Alig/Angel Melendez? I remember someone being stabbed in the back room of the Anvil while I was there early one morning. Gay men have been murdered by tricks as long as there have been gay men and tricks. The issue here (as in the Vesti case) seems to be more about cocaine, alcohol and bad judgment.
Freedom has a price – responsibility. I don’t think it is any more or less expensive than it used to be. Weber was a victim of a crime, that’s for sure, but he also took on a risk that was lousy with red flags.
vlad
I don’t understand how anyone could claim that Craigslist is at fault here??! The radio host asked for ‘rough sex’ and found a ‘willing partner’. What happened afterwords is now in the realm of prosecuting attorney. All blame rests squarely on the person seeking the sex service and obviously the monster committing the actual murder. Craigslist had nothing to do with this.. as much as Internet, nor the ISP, nor the car manufacturer who build the car that the murderer used to drive himself to the victim’s apartment. You get the drift, right? The blame game could go on and on and on, with no end in sight.
The sand part is.. I thought the bloggers would be the first to come to defense of free speech and Internet at large.
Ed
Has crime in NYC increased since the advent of Craigslist? I think not. If anything, the reduction in the crime rate has enabled the vice squad to pursue new initiatives against sexual freedom.
Like Phil, I grew up long before the invention of the internet. These people will find each other one way or another. I speak from experience. Both these people had issues and they needed each other. The chemistry that resulted was more fatal than normal but not unexpected. If a 47 year old meets another 47 year old on Craigslist, nothing bad is likely to happen or if a teenage meets another teenager. But take a 47 year old man who wants to be choked and taped up during sex and a 16 or 18 year old who is working as a hustler, and neither knows anything about each other, add alcohol and cocaine…
The police can tell you that far more often than not, victim and criminal have a lot more in common than you might initially think.
Mark
@Dan Cullinane:
Agreed. This sort of thing will continue to happen as long as there are sociopaths and people who have some sort of genetic need to be victimized. Craigslist is today’s medium. Tomorrow, due to instant communication, it will be something else.
geoff
Where the hell were this kid’s parents during all of this? I know teenagers like their privacy and all that, but were they not paying attention, did they not care, or did they have absolutely no idea what was going on in their son’s life? I don’t want to play the blame game here, but I don’t recall anyone mentioning the parents in this horrible situation.
The Gay Numbers
@Tim in SF: You are talking out of your ass. A) You did more than what you describe in this latest post. You were not merely disagreeing. You were responding to a strawman argument that you made up about what we should do about the Craigslist as a contributing factor. The problem with your strawman is that it was not what I said, and was engaged as others have pointed out in hyperbole and exaggeration of an extreme in order to knock down the extreme you made up.
B) Environments do contribute as a factor to what happens and what we do. It does not excuse our behavior and it does not mean we are children. It’s just real life.
You strike me as an idealogue. I am not one. I understand perfectly well that something can contribute (in this case saying to people that it’s perfect okay to be focused on a hook up culture as exclusion of the emotional and physical dangers involved).
If you want an equivalent way of seeing it, while somone in a crowd is responsible for their own actions- the fact that they are in a crowd pushing them forward is a factor. One does not negate the other unless you are looking for a neat little package with a bow in which to wrap the world.
This will be my last post to you. You aren’t a very logical guy, and I don’t really want argue with your illogical thinking. It’s ironic you attribute to me what is your problem- the inability to discern what arguments are being made and what they mean. Were I the only one callin gyou on this in this discussion- that would be one thing. but I am not. That tells me that my perceptions of you are correct.
The Gay Numbers
@Phil: Another prescrptionist. The question was was it a factor. The answer is yes. What we do with that is a different story. And if you are the age you claim, as my great grandmother use to say- age does not make one smart or wise. It just make you old.
Gurlene
@geoff: There have been several people who have come forward in recent days who knew him and the family and it is what I suspected.
In front of friends and family he no doubt acted like a normal, joking teenager. By his going on craigslist and looking for sex with men he was hiding his homosexuality behind the sword and knives and such. A lot of gay boys do that. They become martial arts freaks, football jocks, anything that makes them not appear gay to outsiders and themselves.
Things have changed a lot since Stonewall but those feelings amongst teenage boys who have family or friends or maybe even themselves that won’t accept what they are will remain forever. This kid a classic case. I hope the Discovery Health channel takes an indepth look at both sides of this story.
A staunch conservative who goes home at night and searches for sex while fantasizing about death and a kid hiding behind knives and violence would make good ratings.
I can’t wait till Limbaugh and his male escort(s) lock horns in the media. With his recent outburst the time to expose that hipocrite is NOW. Does anyone doubt that possibility after Limbaugh’s drug scandal and has anyone not noticed how umcomfortable Limbaugh is on camera? He is hiding something and someone out there knows what it is too.
Tim in SF
@The Gay Numbers: You aren’t a very logical guy, and I don’t really want argue with your illogical thinking.
You don’t know me and you are not privy to my thinking, so I’m hard pressed to imagine where you get off saying that. Go fuck yourself.
It’s ironic you attribute to me what is your problem- the inability to discern what arguments are being made and what they mean.
There are multiple discussions going on and multiple arguments flying about. It doesn’t surprise me that you are under the mistaken impression that I was only writing and responding to you.
B) Environments do contribute as a factor to what happens and what we do. It does not excuse our behavior and it does not mean we are children. It’s just real life.
I’m not sure how this gibberish is relevant. Since you seem to have forgotten, the topic at hand is whether Craigslist is responsible for the grisly death of George Weber. You and the other nannies on this thread seem to think Craigslist was responsible to some degree. I think you’re nuts for such an opinion. I’d go into why but Phil, Vlad and Ed explained this far more eloquently than I ever could just a few posts up.
Were I the only one callin gyou on this in this discussion- that would be one thing. but I am not. That tells me that my perceptions of you are correct.
Oh, that’s a good one. You are right and I am wrong because you have some dumbasses agreeing with you. The only defense I can muster in the case of such a towering, mighty fortress of logic is to point out that there’s always a line at Sizzler.
This will be my last post to you.
Fine by me. Conversing with you is boring and rather pointless.
Yikes!
@Tim in SF: Very solid and accurate description of a manical judgemental and irrational minded person. When will people get that the labels they impose on others only reflect their own lack of character and their inability to see everyone as the same.
Sadly bigotry, homophobia and rascism is as strong as every around the world.
Open your eyes and see that we are all one and despite our quirks or fetishes, we are all human beings and deserve to be treating with respect and dignity, something Mr. Weber surely was unfortunately not afforded in the face of a socialpath and murderer.
mademark
Lady Kier: Central Park does not allow prostitutes or drug dealers to post signs advertizing their wares. The comparison is nonsensical. Craigslist has already been sued by at least two states and come to settlement terms. They absolve themselves and take no responsibility. Since the law apparently has not evolved to deal with the Internet, I suggested they be sued (civilly) out of existence. Were I on a jury in such a case, I would vote to bury them in punitive damanges (sometimes we must be protected from ourselves – cut the libertarian bullshit). If tobacco companies could be successfully sued, as they were, while hiding behing the ‘people make their choices’ argument, so should Craigslist.
Hardmannyc: How old are you? Were you around in 1981? 82? 85? Of course men did not stop having unsafe sex in cities that shut their bathhouses, but lives were saved. The bathhouse controversy was treated by many gay men as a civil rights issue at the time. It was a health issue. If malaria was being spread in bathhouses, would you argue they should stay open? It took years for the bathhouses to provide safer-sex education (they didn’t want to scare away the customers). In the meantime we died needlessly. The bathhouses were a place where many men found easy sex who might otherwise have foregone it. If one life could have been saved, the closing of ten bathhouses would have been worth it. My partner died in 1991, four years after we entered into a monogamous relationship. I used to see him at the Hollywood Spa. Connect the dots.
Bob Lablah
I was a job recruiter back in ’05-06 and I used craigslist for applicants. There is a positive side to it. Unfortunately there is a downside. I hope this incident does not lead to the termination of a good idea because of a few sick minded people.
Tim in SF
@mademark: How old are you? Were you around in 1981? 82? 85? Of course men did not stop having unsafe sex in cities that shut their bathhouses, but lives were saved.
Prove it.
Phil
@The Gay Numbers:
You’re right. Being old doesn’t make you wise. And being a smart ass doesn’t make you smart.
steve tabarez
AM NOT SURE HOW POINTING OUT THAT ALL PARTIES INVOLVED BEAR RESPONSIBILIY IS HATEFUL, INSENSITIVE, OR MANIACAL. WEBER INCLUDED. HE KNEW THE RISKS. HE SOUGHT OUT A LIL BOY, WHICH SAYS ALOT. HE PROVIDED THE DRUGS AND ALCOHOL TOU THAT MINOR. THAT MANY TRY TO EXCUSE THAT BEHAVIOR SAYS ALOT. THAT YOU WANT TO EXCUSE CL, AND WEBER SAYS MORE. THAT YOU SEEK TO BLAME JUST THE BOY, IS WORSE. DID WEBER DESERVE TO DIE? NO. DID HE? YES. HE PLAYED HIS PART IN THIS. BUT WHEN YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE ON THE EXCESSICE INDULGENCE EDGE, AND PUSH IT TO THE LIMIT, YOU ARE LIABLE TO EITHER SLIP AND FALL OVER IT, WHICH IS THE SAME AS BLINDLY JUMPING. OR, YOU GET SHOVED OVER THAT EDGE. EITHER WAY, HE CHOSE TO BE THERE. THAT HE IGNORED THE DANGERS IS SAD. THAT HE CHOSE A LIL, SCREWED UP BOY, A MINOR CAN’T BE EXCUSED. SEX WITH A MINOR IS MORE THAN A SEXUAL FREEDOM ISSUE. THAT CAN’T BE OVERLOOKED. NO MATTER HOW YOU WANT TO TWIST MY WORDS. SELECTIVELY, OF COURSE. ALL ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TRAGEDY.
Nick
The Gay Numbers: Another prescrptionist. The question was was it a factor. The answer is yes. What we do with that is a different story.
To say craigslist was a factor in George Weber’s murder might be about as true and about as relevant as suggesting that a paved street is a factor in a drive-by shooting.
Tim in SF
@steve tabarez: AM NOT SURE HOW POINTING OUT THAT ALL PARTIES INVOLVED BEAR RESPONSIBILIY IS HATEFUL, INSENSITIVE…
I am not sure why you cannot seem to locate your caps lock key.
Here’s a link for you:
http://www.kassj.com/netiquette/netiquette.html#1
Tim in SF
@Nick: To say craigslist was a factor in George Weber’s murder might be about as true and about as relevant as suggesting that a paved street is a factor in a drive-by shooting.
Hey Nick, good luck getting your point across to Teh Gay Numbnuts. I made the same point in a previous post above (though not as eloquent or concisely, I think): Factor: One that actively contributes to an accomplishment, result, or process. Craigslist is not, in fact, a factor in this murder. Craigslist is little more than a milieu for communication. You might as well blame The Telephone for phone scams or The Automobile for bank robberies.
Numbnuts responded by insulting me personally. So, there you go.
The Gay Numbers
@Phil: Were my great grandmother still alive I am sure she would find your comment amusing.
The Gay Numbers
@Nick: Yes, culture has no influence on us at all. It’s never a factor.
The Gay Numbers
@mademark: I don’t know if I agree with your prescriptions, but I am glad you aknowlege a far more complicated world than I’ve read thus far along this thread.
Nick
For what it’s worth, I think this trial has the potential to get really ugly. George Weber made a blog posting back in October after researching people looking for help in committing suicide on craiglist due to the economy. He was laid off from KABC in February.
The first post he highlights is damned ominous in light of recent events:
“Hi. I am white and I am miserable with my life… I want to die… Here’s where you come in. I want you to come choke me to death. I want you to choke me till my face turns purple, my eyes bulge out and the blood vessels in my eyeballs explode. Choke me till I piss and shit on myself. Choke me harder till I die. Send me to hell. I’m tired of this life and the assholes in this world.”
You can read the full post here:
http://tinyurl.com/d6scyz
Nick
KABC should read WABC. D’oh!
The Gay Numbers
I like the irony of ignoring the cultural aspect of the internet, and then speaking of how the trial maybe a big deal because of the cultural impact of being salacious.
hardmannyc
“Of course men did not stop having unsafe sex in cities that shut their bathhouses, but lives were saved.”
I was most certainly around, and I lost most of my friends and my longterm partner. I don’t think closing the bathhouses saved one life, because there was still:
the parks
the phone lines
the classified ads
the “tea rooms”
the bars
the streets
You get the idea. To say your lover wouldn’t have caught HIV if the Hollywood Spa closed is at best disingenuous. I’m sure he — like other men of the time — would have found a place to hook up. All men are horndogs and will hump a hollowed-out tree if nothing else is around. One can only educate and hope they do it safely.
geoff
@Gurlene: What a sad situation. Now as to Rush Limbaugh, I so hope you are right. I would live to be watching Fox News when and if that story ever breaks if nothing more than to watch O’Reilly’s head explode.
The Gay Numbers
@hardmannyc: My guess is he is not fixed on location. He is talking about a community that condones reckless as the simple”it’s your choice” rather than the more complex “we are both inviduals and in this together.”
I think he’s saying we do not ultimately care as a real community would about what happens to the men we fuck. They are blowup dolls rather than real live humans. I would add that places like Craigslist makes this workse.
If a man is about to run into oncoming traffic, would a community that caresnot say anything to him? Can we not even be bothered enough to yell out “hey, watch yourself”? Whether it’s Craigslist, the bathhouse or public parks- is irrelevant. It’s a cultural mindset. It’s very hedonistic and egocentric.
The Gay Numbers
@hardmannyc: One follow up: pleasure and individuality are great things, but they are not the only considerations
David Anger
As a media professional who has affair on his partner, I find craig’s list a great place to meet quality guys.
cayuga
more affairs, more debauchery! more cake!!!!
John in Boston
Several things:
It’s creepy looking at pics of John Katehis because he looks like a fairly typical teenage boy being goofy and he speaks pretty well.
Drugs, alcohol, and extreme fetishes that control you, not the other way around, are responsible.
I’ve seen pics and vids of John Katehis including his perp walk and he looks from them (especially with shaved head) like he could pass for 18 or more
George Weber didn’t look like a weak man, in fact he looked in photos like a bruiser.
Mr Weber ultimately should have been FAR MORE careful, but again drugs, alcohol and loneliness often make people do desperate and/or foolish crap.
vernonvanderbilt
Just a few random observations/opinions, as I’m a bit too tired to get in depth on this issue at the moment.
1. Pentagram tattoos (or being a Satanist) are not proof that a person is disturbed, deranged, or dangerous. Like it or not, it’s a legitimate belief system. I was a Satanist myself for many years, and I can say that most Satanists I’ve met or otherwise interacted with are generally pretty normal folks, albeit with somewhat inflated egos.
2. Katehis was sixteen. He’s not a child, or a little boy; he’s a teenager, a young man.
3. I don’t much care for the sound of it, and I’m not generally one to “blame the victim,” but don’t you think Weber was pretty much asking for trouble with his actions? We live in a culture that revels in its stupidity. We have a government which seems, at times, more intent on protecting us from our own stupidity than protecting us from the stupidity of others. As far as I’m concerned, Weber’s demise has probably enriched the world’s communal gene pool a bit.
4. But that doesn’t excuse Katehis’ actions. He took a life. Whether it was malice or self-defense, I’ll let the evidence and the jury decide that.
5. Concerning the question posed in this post: Nope. Blaming Craigslist for this is just another way to distract from the real issue, which is our society’s inherent desire to deny anything resembling personal responsibility. It’s like blaming Marilyn Manson for school shootings, or free condoms for teen pregnancy. It’s easier to get riled up over a red herring than to discuss the sticky, uncomfortable, root issues behind events like these.
Gurlene
@geoff: Rest assured if it did not only would O’reily suddenly be on vacation or special assignment but the segment itself would be relagated to the wee hours of Saturday morning around 2am regadless of the face the story would probably break early one monday morning. Expect a 30 to 45 second at best clip of the story to be aired on Fox.
Out of shame and a “what the hell do we do now” mentality expect Pat Buchanan, Newt Gingrich and Charles Krauthammer to say absolutely nothing about it. Michael Steele will be on tv for a hot minute gloating over Humpty Dumpty falling off the wall only to upstaged by Alan Keyes who will hug and embrace Limbaugh in public despite his disowning his own lesbian daughter.
Ahh, politics.
My little secret
As someone who has perused the CL M4M section in recent time, there is definitely a ton of illegal crap going on that would never be tolerated if it existed in the physical realm. Just because it’s online doesn’t mean it should be treated any different. Just as adults need to take responsibility for their actions, CL needs to take responsibility for its lack of action.
Tim in SF
@My little secret: As someone who has perused the CL M4M section in recent time, there is definitely a ton of illegal crap going on that would never be tolerated if it existed in the physical realm.
Wow, you’re right! I’ve never seen escort ads in print publications that are in the physical realm on every corner in every major city. That would NEVER be tolerated!
My little secret
@Tim in SF:
And we ALL know that if it goes down in a major city, then it MUST be okay. Reality check: there are far more people that don’t live in ‘major’ cities. Unlike San Fran or NYC, us petty “non-major city dwellers” don’t have to sell ourselves to pay our bills because we aren’t living a standard of life we really can’t afford.
Two wrongs don’t make a right buddy.
Tim in SF
@My little secret: And we ALL know that if it goes down in a major city, then it MUST be okay. Reality check: there are far more people that don’t live in ‘major’ cities.
HEY DUMBASS! This murder happened in NEW YORK CITY!
I’m sure they don’t have escort ads or Craigslist or indoor plumbing in whatever two-bit Podunk backwater hick town which hosts your trailer, and that’s all nice for you, but it’s not really the point. Try again.
David in LA
@Tim in SF.. you are AWESOME !! loved reading your posts.. and you are SO RIGHT !
on ALL counts !
Keep up the work ,,,,
Doug in NYC
Blaming craigslist for these people meeting is like blaming the sidewalk when people meet there. But police like playing the blame game, except whey they are to blame…
But I’m honestly quite surprised about how mixed up people are about this. Separate the fact that the kid was to get $60 for this, from the fact that this guy got murdered. Most arguments people are making wouldn’t hold up if the kid did it for free. Oh, and $60 is way low isn’t it? More like round trip cab fare and a small lunch. Sheesh!
John in Boston
60 bucks…..was John Katehis the lowest bidder?
This story, like most stuff you read,hear or watch in the mainstream media (especially crime stories)is FULL OF HOLES.
Check media reports about a situation you’re intimately familar with and 99% of the time you’ll just shake your head in disbelief.
Jane in Atlanta
@mademark:
I agree with you 100%. Because Craigslist is based in the physical United States they should be subject to the same laws as everyone else, even if the service they provide is web based. If I started a website that allowed terrorists to hook up with bomb makers, I would not be allowed to even continue to keep the website running.
Not only that, but Craigslist should WANT to help clean out the streets of prostitution, especially if it includes a minor. Even though the world is filled with very mature minors, they still are immature in the way they see the world and should be protected. Even though Katehis is a crazy psyopath on cocaine, maybe if someone had protected him when he was younger, he wouldn’t be the man he is today. It isn’t about blaming craigslist for the killing of George Weber, it’s about being responsible in all areas of the world that you contribute.
KJS73
This case really scares me. It’s true that the street is as dangerous as craigslist when picking up a stranger. I feel weird that I find Katehis handsome. That’s what scares me about this. I could see one falling for his looks and claim to be 18. In any case this is something I won’t soon forget. Lust isn’t worth dying for. There are handsome men out there who don’t have to be a danger to your life. This should be obvious, but I know that there is a dark side to me that seeks out dangerous men. It’s something that I must stop.