New York Governor David Paterson will introduce a bill today that will legalize same-sex marriage in New York, but many gay activists aren’t happy about it. Why? While a similar bill has passed before in the state assembly, support for the bill in the Senate is virtually unknown, despite it being controlled by Democrats.
Sen. Tom Duane, the state’s lone openly gay state Senator said “This is what I think: This isn’t Las Vegas, and I’m not willing to gamble with a new strategy on anyone’s civil rights.” Paterson, whose political fortunes have been on the wane may very well be using the recent decisions in Iowa and Vermont as a political jumping off point to boost his reelection, but does that mean we shouldn’t get on board?
Paterson has long been a champion of gay rights, so we’re not arguing that his motives are purely political, but his decision to push for gay marriage in New York appears to have been made solely on his own, leaving gay rights groups as surprised by his announcement as anyone else.
There’s really two major factors at work here. The first is that there’s an undeniable momentum created by the Iowa and Vermont victories and we’ve argued before that the LGBT movement should capitalize on the current high profile of gay and lesbian rights before the public’s attention moves to other things. New York is a fairly liberal state in many ways, but upstate New York is decidedly conservative.
How about we take this to the next level?
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Sen. Ruben Diaz Sr. of the Bronx has vowed to defeat any gay marriage bill that comes up in the Senate. This leads to the second force at work, which is basically, that people don’t like Gov. Paterson. His decision to bring gay marriage to the Legislature appears to have been made without gathering up the support the bill needs to pass. Alan Van Cappelle, executive director of Empire State Pride Agenda puts it bluntly, “We are closer than people think, but we’re not there yet.”
So, the question becomes “Can Paterson rally support for the bill?” All signs seem to indicate that he can’t. The Governor has yet to build a track record of directing legislation in the state legislature and a contentious issue like gay marriage is an unlikely one for him to suddenly find himself in a position of influencing policy.
“C.W. Post political science professor Stanley Klein said Paterson is making a transparent effort to boost dismal approval ratings. Klein predicted the move will backfire.
“Being the flag bearer for gay marriage when you know it can’t pass the Senate doesn’t do you any good,” said Klein, who is also a Republican committeeman in Suffolk. “The Republicans are still stung by the fact that they lost the majority, so they’re going to vote unanimously against anything he brings up.”
This puts the gay community in a unique and problematic position. If it sits by and refuses to support the Governor’s efforts, it could be accused of not willing to take on tough battles. If it supports the Governor and the bill fails, you’ll have angry grassroots activists marching in the streets, but ore importantly, the fight over the bill could derail future efforts.
Gimmick or not, threat of failure or not, our feeling is that any gay rights battle, won or lost, is a win for our community. The reality is, the struggle for gay and lesbian rights is one that will ultimately prevail, so long as we keep making our case. Paterson’s announcement today will be yet another opportunity for us to do so. Do we want our message to be, “Well, it looks like it won’t pass, so why bother?” or “We applaud the Governor for taking a principled stand and will fight for gay marriage anytime, anywhere?”
This seems a no brainer.
Yes, politics is the art of the actual. Yes, the victories in Vermont and Iowa were the result of long and coordinated efforts by many LGBT groups working in concert. However, opportunity knocks. We owe it to ourselves to answer.
ousslander
He ius doing it for purely to try toi boost his poll numbers. He does not have the where withall to rally enough support for this bill. He is a lame duck. However I am glad he brought this up. You never know it might pass with enough pressure from the public. Also it would show us who regardless of party is are friend adn who is are foe.
Robert, NYC
Though I’m for full marriage equality, I think the Governor’s decision is very unwise at this moment in time. I think he should have waited until after the mid-term elections. The only good thing about it is its opening up the issue for full debate, something that hasn’t happened in the state. Other than that, it doesn’t stand a chance in passing the legislature, if anything it could set us back a few more steps. I’m very uneasy about all of this. Make no mistake, the republicans will use this as a wedge issue, they’ll do or say anything to regain power, after all, they’re a bunch of sore losers. Yet again, we will be the scapegoats.
JH
I say open it up for debate and a vote before the midterm elections. If the bill fails, at least we know who voted against us and we can actively work to get people out of office. We can’t be afraid to let this bill fail. If it fails, it will inspire people to work harder for its passage the next time it comes up.
All this hemming and hawing around whether this is a good time or not is foolish. It’s always good to introduce a bill that expands civil rights. The only reason that people seem nervous is because Gov. Patterson’s numbers are in the toilet for most of the state doesn’t mean he’s wrong to try to help us out. He’s extending a hand — are we really going to slap it away?
Chris
@Robert, NYC:
Tom Duane has come out in the interim to say he thinks it can pass this year — that was a real surprise to me, but I believe Tom knows what he’s doing.
Wisefool
Editors: Keep in mind that speaking truth to power is not a gimmick or a gambit. It is our right.
Who cares what his motivations are? Do NOT look this gift horse in the mouth. Whether or not the bill passes, it calls more attention to the issue.
Re Angry protesters: If people have to protest in the streets with signs– maybe they should! And dare I say– even if the bill passes. People need to galvinze around this issue. If we have a success in New York, speaking out for those who do not have the same rights afforded to them by other states would be a good thing to do in the streets of New York– which, just for a reminder, is the media capital of the world. In social change visibility, exposure, and a clear consistant thoughtfully conveyed message is the key to action.
FYI, I was watching Patterson and Bloomberg’s press conference live just a minute ago– was there a protester in the room playing that music while Bloomberg was speaking? They had to drag someone out, right? Can we get more info?
Also– does anyone else think that, despite his lazy eye, that Patterson is a sexy, grade A, usda approved beefcake?
AlwaysGay
We can do it! Please contact New York Senators NOW! (especially Rubén Díaz, Carl Kruger, Pedro Espada and Hiram Monserrate) Urge them to vote for marriage equality.
New York Senate
http://www.senate.state.ny.us/Senatorbio.nsf/Public_MemberEmail?openform
New York Assembly
http://www.assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?sh=email
hardmannyc
Worst case scenario: It passes the Assembly easily. It did before, so that’s a no-brainer. It fails in the Senate by only a very few votes — which, if it fails (I don’t think it will), is what will happen.
That’s hardly losing face, if you consider that 10 years ago, gay marriage would have been laughed out of both chambers.
playasinmar
This is like a paraphrased scene out of Milk:
“We’re demanding what we want and we want it now!”
“No, no. Sit down and let the slow wheels of justice come around on their own. You’ll Only aggravate the straights.”
Are you kidding? We fight for what we want and we want it now.
Ben
It’s progress in and of itself when an elected official can be accused of using gay rights as a way of [i]gaining[/i] points, rather than committing political suicide.
I doubt it will pass, but if the opportunity presents itself, I don’t see any reason not to light a fire under the state Senate’s ass.
Robert, NYC
@Chris:
Chris, I hope you’re right, my only hope is that if it doesn’t pass, are we looking at a California type proposition now that the rethuglicans are galvanizing to take back power?
Robert, NYC
@Wisefool:
Hi, I too just watched live coverage in Albany, I also thought it might be a heckler or some other dissenter, I’m sure we’ll hear more about that.
Gov. Paterson is cute for sure.
Douglas Gibson Jr
Not only do right wingers not get it, some in our own community don’t get it. It is time to stand up for what we believe in and fight for our rights, whether or not someone thinks it is the right time or not. We need to demand what is appropriate and if we don’t get it, make sure we do something about it instead of voting for the same people over and over again who don’t support us, or supporting LGBT organizations who keep saying, wait, it’s not time yet!
@playasinmar – you get it!
hardmannyc
” LGBT organizations who keep saying, wait, it’s not time yet!”
And exactly which organizations are saying that? I’m really curious. HRC? Task Force? Lambda Legal? I haven’t heard them saying that.
Douglas Gibson Jr
@HARDMANNYC – Have you ever contacted one of the major organizations such that you mention about having your marriage from California recognized in another state? Have you ever contacted them about suing the federal government that you work for to get health benefits for your same sex spouse? Well I have and the response I get is “Wait, it’s not time yet.
Alec
@Douglas Gibson Jr: Have you ever contacted them about suing the federal government that you work for to get health benefits for your same sex spouse?
That didn’t stop a Deputy Federal Defender in Los Angeles from doing it. Moreover, there was a suit dismissed in the 9th Circuit challenging the CA law (properly so, as the issue was being litigated at the time in CA), there was a suit targeting the Nebraska ban in 2005 (and they declined to seek Supreme Court review after an adverse ruling, IIRC).
Strategically, I think the organizations have a point, although I do think it is time to reconsider the strategy, as the case law and legislative developments continue. Judging by the decisions in the 9th Circuit employee benefits cases, I’d start there.
Douglas Gibson Jr
@Alec – already been there – been told the same thing – no one wants to take on the case – yet – “it’s not time” – In addition there was a deal behind that where the decision would only apply to that office and not the rest of the Feds
The organization that is suing the feds for the couples in MA doesn’t even want to touch my case – Don’t even get me going on this – the steam is starting to rise
Alec
@Douglas Gibson Jr:
In addition there was a deal behind that where the decision would only apply to that office and not the rest of the Feds
That’s largely because of how the Federal Defenders office is organized. You can read the decision that reached the constitutional issue here:
http://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/articlefiles/Feb.2_2009_Final_FPD_EDR_ORDER.pdf
Anyway, I’m up for reconsidering the strategy of avoiding these issues.
GPW
Now is not a good time Rosa, go sit in the back of the bus and be patient.
MadProfessah
@JH: I agree with you and this is why I support the bill even if they don’t know what will happen in the Senate. We need to get people on the record so we know where everyone stands. Passing the Assembly again will be a very big deal.
The Governor can’t wait until after the mid-term elections in November 2010 because he is on the ballot as well, isn’t he?
Or are you saying to do it in a lame duck session, like New Jersey may be doing this year?
Cam
Fuck politics and all the nay-sayers, one of this governors FIRST actions when he came into office was to force New York to recognize gay marriages performed in other states. Now he is forcing the Senators to come out and show where they stand on this bill.
Any of you who want to sit back and let groups like HRC spend another 20 years trying to get incrimental, miniscule changes need to go sit in the back of the bus and leave the Rosa Parks’ of this world to do their thing without your nay-saying.
The Gay Numbers
I don’t see what we have to lose by fighting for it now. If we win enough votes, then marriage is legal. If not, we live to fight another day. Gay men, it seems to me, are cluless when it comes to politics.
I suppose to issue is whether it harms us perceptionally regarding momentum. How is that possible? At the end of the day- here’s the reality some states are going to get behind marriage equality, and others are not. What we are discussing is the illusion of there being a seachange shift across the country. That’s an illusion. The real substance is that we need to fight in each state as is the case of each states politics.
For the record, NY state’s political structure is fucked up. There will never be a good time. There is also know guarantee that we will have the proper Democrats we need to pass the bill.
If this were the federal courts, I would advocate caution, but this is not. This is a political process where horsetrading happens all the time. I would not assume with certainty what will be the outcome here.
The Gay Numbers
@Chris: I saw that too which is why I do not understand the certainty that gay groups have that it will fail. Their real point seems to be that they are not certain it will pass. This later attitude is dangerous because it misses the point. You will not always be certain when fighting a strategy for rights what will be the outcome. But to push forward requires more than political savvy it also requires having a bit of courage to get things done.
Bruno
@The Gay Numbers:
Exactly, courage. WTF are we all afraid of? That it won’t clear the Senate? The chance that it might, or at least that we’ll know who’s who on the issue, is one we can’t afford to pass up. After all, the next governor of NY may have a veto pen at the ready like Jim Douglas.
Chitown Kev
@The Gay Numbers:
“Gay men, it seems to me, are cluless when it comes to politics.”
I agree with you 100%.
The Gay Numbers
@Bruno: Exactly the point about NY politics. One should not assume that it will be friendly territory at some point in the future. Waiting offers as many risks as moving forward now.
Bill Perdue
The fight for same sex marriage is not going away. In fact it’s gaining a momentum of its own. In the past the fight over SSM was determined by the religious right’s use of it as a wedge. The bigot’s victories created a mass movement with formidable support and organizing potential. It’s one of the power bases of the fight for equality.
It’ll have a better chance of winning in NY if the campaign for it is not dependent on the goodwill of bigots and those who pander to them but is accompanied by everything from mass demonstrations to local picket lines and flooding Albany with letters and e-mails demanding passage.
A democratically run coalition with a mass action perspective to organize the fight is the first item on our agenda. The lack of that, combined with Obama’s bombshell “gawd’s in the mix” are what killed us in California.
hardmannyc
“It’ll have a better chance of winning in NY if the campaign for it is not dependent on the goodwill of bigots and those who pander to them but is accompanied by everything from mass demonstrations to local picket lines and flooding Albany with letters and e-mails demanding passage.”
Boy, are you naive. NYState has the most disfunctional legislature of any state in the union. This is fact. The only way this will get passed is by hardball horse trading. The legislators care about one thing and one thing only: What’s in it for me?
it sucks but that’s realpolitik not pie-in-the-sky “activism.”
Bill Perdue
@hardmannyc:
it sucks but that’s realpolitik not pie-in-the-sky “activism”
What inexcusably reactionary drivel. Realpolitik is the language of real dyed-in-the-wool accommodationists. Read some US history and find out how little you know about this country.
I have no doubt that the Democrats who control the legislature are hustlers out for a buck. That makes it all the more important to pressure them with the threat of widespread demonstrations. In a period when the economy is failing and the racist war in South Asia is grinding on and on killing GIs and muslims the last thing they want to see is a community uniting to demand their rights. That’s an example of what they fear the most.
Nor am I surprised that you oppose the fight for equality.
Alec
@Bill Perdue: That must be why Roosevelt desegregated the armed forces during World War II and the civil rights act was passed in 1944.
getreal
As someone working on the repeal Prop 8 campaign (not sure why Bill Perdue is saying us he has absolutely nothing to do it and has no idea what is going on) there is are coalitions in place. The labor movement for one is fully behind the marriage equality movement and is donating money and man hours. Last month the hotel workers labor union held panel discussion with Cleve Jones on the subject of marriage equality. For the first time in history last year California’s 50 labor unions unanimously voted in favor of marriage equality. Dolores Huerta the migrant worker labor union icon is rallying people in the hispanic community around the issue of marriage equality. There is a lot of work being done in California so it is discouraging to read posts from do nothings that have nothing to do with the work being done here. As far as the governor I think he introduced the bill because it is the right thing to do. Bigots aside the average American is simply sick and tired of the persecution of gay people. Particularly people of my generation who were raised that being gay is just something you are born with like brown eyes or black skin not something that is unusual or wrong. These anti-equality laws are simply wrong.
The Gay Numbers
@getreal: Don’t take what Bill says seriously.
getreal
@The Gay Numbers: You are right no one else does why should I?
Bill Perdue
@getreal: Obamabots united to say… nothing. Getsevenwithgaymen, is there some reason you want to pretend you’re part of the movement? That an Obamabot like you has clue?
@Alec: more drivel. I sure there’s some silly cynical point you’re trying to make but next time try harder to be relevant.
@The Gay Numbers: you and your party are extinct becasue you and your party supprot bigots like Obama, his war and his failing economy. Ignore away, the left and the new layer of activists won’t miss you.
getreal
What a phony he isn’t an activist he is mad he was exposed as a know nothing and a do nothing in the Prop8 fight. This weekend I’ll be at a Courage campaign weekend activist training working to repeal prop 8 and Bill Perdue will be on Queerty insulting people. He is just a bitter confused guy with some serious legal and mental problems.
getreal
I think when a politician shows they support equality they should be congratulated not looked at with suspicion. Just my opinion.
Bill Perdue
@getreal: Oh pshaw. You say that about all the gay men you want to get even with. There are lots of us including a couple in this thread; http://www.queerty.com/michael-lucas-takes-on-black-porn-stars-not-in-that-way-20090327/
Having any luck recruiting?
Alec
@Bill Perdue: Ahem.
As I said, Roosevelt desegregated the armed forces and the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1944. I’m supporting your claim with GoodHistorical facts. Why are you so intolerant to GoodHistory?
@getreal: Thank you for your work on Prop 8. And no worries, we all know who the adults are, here.
getreal
@Alec: Thanks for your rational posts it is gratifying that Bill is pretty much the lone kook on this site.
getreal
@Bill Perdue: You keep bringing up that thread as if it something bad it isn’t. There were many people on a thread commenting that it is pedophilia to lust after underage people is creepy and to complain about age of consent laws is suspicious. The fact that the idea that people should not sleep with kids so offends you that you have harped on it for 3 months leads me to believe that must disagree with it. Bill it is wrong to sleep with children. If it makes you angry that I have posted that too bad. The fact that you are so angry that someone dared to voice a normal and legal opinion makes many people on here wonder about your own activities. I have seen many people express discomfort for your seeming obsession with a very normal thread. If the concept that someone who seeks to sleep with children is a pedophile angers you so much what does that say about you and your desires? Doth protesth to much. I’m not going to get dragged into this dialogue with you. If you are this angry about the illegality of grown people sleeping with kids I have no doubt the authorities will catch up with you. I would bet months of standing up for pedophilia on a website has got you on a couple of watch lists already.
Bill Perdue
@Alec: GoodHistory? Is that one of the props of Hope and Change. Yes.
getreal
@Bill Perdue: What kind of self-hating homophobe are you? People are born gay or straight they cannot be recruited one way or the other. Your age is really showing.
getreal
Oh wow a different thread for once interesting that was a great discussion on the down low phenomenon in the black community. Nothing said was untoward as a matter of fact the lone hold out at the end of the thread admitted he felt I was right. I could post many of your anti-Semitic (zionists should die)posts. You are irrelevant and just seek to make every thread all about you. I’m not going to let you succeed.
Bill Perdue
@getreal: You kerep saying that but when push comes to shove you have to shut up or prove yourself a liar.
@getreal: You should change your name to getsdimmer by the hour. The thread I referred readers too contained your comments that gay Black men on the DL are responsible for the spread of HIV-AIDS. You’re the only one here with pedophilia on the brain. If you’d stick to the politics and control your urges to inject you christer garbage all the time people might not dismiss you as a hysterical version of the Church Lady, but as it is…
@Alec: Adult? Flinging charges of pedophilia? Saying that all her non-christian opponents are broken, like Dobson? Saying that they lust after children, like Dobson? Saying the AA men plot to spread HIV?AIDS, like Dobson?
I suppose if you fell for Obama you’d fall for that. Not very bright, but then you’re a Democrat so we won’t hold you to too high a standard.
getreal
@Bill Perdue: You are just a sad guy. You posts are either angry drivel or outright lies. That is why every time you post threads then lie about their content you lose credibility. That is why people on this site discount your posts and don’t take you seriously. If everyone on here is so beneath you and your enemy why don’t you just go away? Or go back to posting under the name Charles Mueller? Ever thread does not have to be about you Bill. If you really think every ally is an enemy it is clear why all your posts sound so cynical and unhappy. Why don’t you actually do some work in the movement instead of just being negative you would be a lot happier.
hardmannyc
@Bill Perdue: I stand by what I said. No one in the NY State Legislature would give two rat shits if the masses burned them in effigy. Only money and favors matter in Albany. I don’t like it, either, but you play the hand you’re dealt.
Thank you, Getreal, although you’re speaking to someone who is so steeped in his own private world he won’t hear you.
hardmannyc
@getreal: He lives in Nevada. Hey, Bill Perdue, why don’t you SIGN OFF and go do some work in your own state, which is facing not one but THREE gay-rights bills? Oh, that’s right. It would require you’re actually getting off your soapbox and, you know, doing something.
hardmannyc
@getreal: Nobody wants you here. Nobody listens to you. Go slink away.
The Lesbian Mafia
Queerty one of the few voices of reason. It’s sad how easily fooled people are when they are busy trying to pay the bills.
It’s crap. They know Dems are completely divided on the marriage issue. Piece of poo #1 Bloombucks, and peice of poo #2 Patterson, get to pretend that they care about “gay marriage” because they know it will not pass – thier own party won’t let it. Dems don’t care about anything they have to say when it comes to gay civil rights and they’re down the middle wtih women’s equal rights/reproductive rights, too. Both Reps and Dems want abortion to be legal and that’s the reason it is. Hence the term Republicrats – Reps/Dems same shit. If Dems cared about gay marriage as they pretend to, New York – a blue state, would have had marriage ages before Iowa – a red state. NY is full of Dems … “what have they done for me lately”? I don’t forsee it.
Alex
Not going to get drawn in to the arguments on the board, but just have to say that Paterson is one of the pols who I think really gets it. I once read something where he talked about his uncles, and it was an aha moment. I don’t live in New York, but I’ll support Patterson however I can, and I think this is a genuine effort to win us our rights.
Also, just saw Colbert’s take on NOM’s gathering storm. Hilarious.
getreal
@hardmannyc: Well at least I’m not disturbing anyone then. I guess there is a silver lining to every storm cloud.
getreal
@hardmannyc: Oh you were telling Bill Perdue to slink away. Good I thought I had offended you. At least he seems to disappear as soon as he is confronted.
The Gay Numbers
@Alex: He discusses it in a New York Times article when he first came to the governor’s office. It was less an ah-ha moment, and more, “this is a part of my life growing up so to try to tell me its weird is telling me that I am weird to have had these great people in my life. ” I believe his feelings on gay rights are true, but his pol instincts got in his way. Some think this is a hail mary, but I think maybe for him its about legacy.
John from England(used to be just John but there are other John's)
@getreal:
I don’t think he meant to send that to you…
Steve
Some LGBT organizations derive most of their budget from scaring people. Every day I get mail or email saying, essentially, “Give $100 to _______ today, to fight(support) the ________ campaign! If __________ passes(fails) ….”
The cumulative effect of a lot of work by a lot of people is that average people are becoming supportive of equal rights. And, of course, elected officials are trying to get in front of that parade. Some LGBT “leaders” want to slow the parade down, because as soon as equal rights are won, their ability to raise money by scare tactics will be reduced.
The Governor has good political sense. He isn’t doing this to loose. Hence, he thinks it can pass. All that has to happen is a public outcry to convince a couple of fence-sitting Senators. Public outcries happen, even in New York.
I am looking forward to the mail this week — “Give $100 to _______ today, to support the Marriage-In-New-York campaign! If Marriage-In-New-York passes ….”
In the mean time, I think I might write a few letters to some New York Senators. Actual letters are far more effective than giving hundred-dollar bills to fund-raising machines.
hardmannyc
@getreal: Goodness, that was not directed at you. Your posts have been good!
Bill Perdue
@getreal: @hardmannyc: I will be posting less for a week or two but not because a Democrat zionist who wants to nuke all muslims or an Obamabot,loser Church Lady do me the honor of opposing my ideas.
I have family business to attend to.
hardmannyc
@Bill Perdue: uh-huh. like all would-be bullies, you slink away at the slightest sign you’re losing.
DeAndre Jackson
One important and carefully conducted study found suicide attempts among homosexuals were six times greater than the average (Remafedi et al. 1998).
Then, more recently, in the Archives of General Psychiatry– an established and well-respected journal–three papers appeared with extensive accompanying commentary (Fergusson et al. 1999, Herrell et al. 1999, Sandfort et al. 2001, and e.g. Bailey 1999). J. Michael Bailey included a commentary on the above research; Bailey, it should be noted, conducted many of the muchpublicized “gay twin studies” which were used by gay advocates as support for the “born that way” theory. Neil Whitehead, Ph.D.
Bailey said, “These studies contain arguably the best published data on the association between homosexuality and psychopathology, and both converge on the same unhappy conclusion: homosexual people are at substantially higher risk for some forms of emotional problems, including suicidality, major depression, and anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, and nicotine dependence…The strength of the new studies is their degree of control.”
The first study was on male twins who had served in Vietnam (Herrell et al. 1999). It concluded that on average, male homosexuals were 5.1 times more likely to exhibit suicide- related behavior or thoughts than their heterosexual counterparts. Some of this factor of 5.1 was associated with depression and substance abuse, which might or might not be related to the homosexuality. (When these two problems were factored out, the factor of 5 decreased to 2.5; still somewhat significant.) The authors believed there was an independent factor related to suicidality which was probably closely associated with some features of homosexuality itself.
The second study (Fergusson et al. 1999) followed a large New Zealand group from birth to their early twenties. The “birth cohort” method of subject selection is especially reliable and free from most of the biases which bedevil surveys. This study showed a significantly higher occurrence of depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance abuse and thoughts about suicide, amongst those who were homosexually active.
TANK
@DeAndre Jackson:
Yeah, you stupid cunt. That has nothing to do with the constant discrimination that they experience in which they’re incessenatly being told that they’re not as good as their het counterparts by people like you? That’s a clear case of not being able to see the forest through the trees… but in reality, that’s not what it is at all. What is is a profound lack of character that causes lying and propaganda from people like you; skewing evidence to favor a predetermined conclusion. Anyway, if the shrill steady sound of bigotry hadn’t entered into the researcher’s explanation of possible causes, then that’s why it ain’t science.
getreal
@Bill Perdue: Hope you find some happiness Bill Perdue, like most fundamentalist bigots all your rhetoric seems to be a cover for very little intelligence and a whole lot of personal unhappiness.
DeAndre Jackson
@TANK: Obviously you are a white elitist and cannot contain your disdain for those that are black and gay like myself.Evidently you are a rascist Afro-phobe and sustain great delight in projecting your pointless venom at those who dare to call you on your sacrosanct idealogies of what a gay male should conform to.I am proud to be black and likewise proud of my contentions whereas you are more than likely a frustrated closet homophobe.
getreal
@DeAndre Jackson: So if someone doesn’t agree with you they are racist? If they don’t agree with you they are a homophobe? I’m proud to be black too brother and i think you are off base. I’m also very disturbed by the implication that homosexuality is connected to mental illness. If those figures are true they fail to take into account the tremendous discrimination and the psychological warfare that has been and continues to be waged against LGBT people. As a black person I would think you would understand that as our people have in American history been through similar persecution. As a black person who has experienced discrimination I feel we as black people have a certain obligation to be more tolerant as we KNOW the pain of bigotry and hate.