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Is It Time For A Gay Marriage Ballot Initiative in California?

shopproductimg_pict5976Political consultant Chad Griffin told attendees at this weekend’s Equality Summit in Los Angeles, “There is one thing worse than losing Prop. 8, and that would be losing again.” But a growing chorus of California gays and lesbians disagree. Rick Jacobs and the Courage Campaign are leading the way on a 2010 ballot initative that would overturn Prop. 8. Jacobs said, “I don’t think anybody knows when is the best time to go back. My philosophy is having it go every time, and eventually we will win.” It’s the first major decision the LGBT community has had to face in the wake of gay marriage being outlawed in the Golden State and all signs point to it being a divisive flash point. So, naturally, we’re going to weigh in.

First, let’s face some political realities. The people saying that we should hold off on a gay marriage ballot initiative are mostly No on 8 people. Whether they realize it or not, these leaders have no clout in the gay community right now, especially when it comes to trying to promote the message that we should hold off on jumping into another fight. Put simply, they’re in no position to claim an expertise in strategy.

And then there’s the Rick Jacobs factor. Nature abhors a vacuum and, at least currently, so does politics. The Courage Campaign has moved swiftly to define itself as the spearhead of the new gay political movement. The day after the Equality Summit, Jacobs was holding a “Camp Courage” in West Hollywood, which began training activists in the nuts and bolts of running a campaign. In a sign of just how influential Jacobs has become, Equality California’s Geoff Kors attended the camp, not as a speaker, but an attendee. More Camp Courage’s are planned across the state and the Courage Campaign have asked people to vote on where the next one should be. (Watch scenes from this weekend’s Camp Courage here.)

We fail to see how any gay group would be able to sit out on another initiative battle and survive.

The Camp Courage side of the gay community has youth, idealism and energy on its side. It also is unburdened by the recriminations and self-examination that hover over the remnants of the No on 8 campaign. With two initiatives already submitted to the Secretary of State, one launched by a gay rights group in Davis that would repeal Proposition 8 outright and a second that would eliminate marriage from the State Constitution and replace it with civil unions for all, the ball’s already rolling on a 2010 fight. Who is going to tell these gay activists that they should stop working for their rights?

That said, the No on 8 folks have some good points. Pollster David Binder worries that money will be tight in a tough economy and points out that Yes campaigns are much harder to win than no campaigns. Of course, the obvious rejoinder is “Tell that to the ‘Yes on 8′ campaign.”

Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, says that these activists need “a full appreciation of the enormity of such an undertaking” and John Henning, executive director of Love Honor Cherish points to the enormous logistics needed:

“The deadline for us to be gathering signatures for a November ballot initiative would actually be this fall. We have to raise money, we have to train people how to gather these signatures and we have to get 10,000 people out doing something they may not be comfortable doing.”

But, we fail to see how any gay group would be able to sit out on another initiative battle and survive. Should the No on 8 leaders fail to join a 2010 ballot initiative campaign, they wouldn’t just be rendered irrelevant, they’d be tarred and feathered and sent on the first train out of town.

So, this thing is going to happen and our gut instinct is that it ought to happen. The time for careful, cautious strategies is over– it’s time for the gay community to embrace a “shock and awe” approach. Each new campaign, whether it fails or not, will act as a battering ram on the door of intolerance. More importantly, our sense is that the gay community can not go through another five years of free-floating frustration. A new ballot initiative will have tangible benefits in community building and organization. Camp Courage’s genius is that it’s giving civil rights activists the tools to do something tangible.

One of the lessons frm the Equality Summit is that to win marriage equality, we will need more leaders. It may be a trial by fire, but a 2010 ballot initiative will help forge the next generation of gay leadership.

We don’t really do endorsements here at Queerty, but here is one case where we will make an exception: A ballot initiative in California may not win at the polls, but if it has even an outside chance of doing so, it’s a battle that must be fought.

By:           Japhy Grant
On:           Jan 27, 2009
Tagged: , , , , ,

  • 49 Comments
    • conrad
      conrad

      lets all hope california sinks into the ocean so we dont have to hear about this shit anymore…

      Jan 27, 2009 at 9:12 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Hint
      Hint

      I agree with Japhy. Make them go through the fight and waste their money every two years if you have to (its not a waste of our money because we WILL eventually get what we want, I really doubt they’ll be able to turn the tide of public opinion backwards). Its our major issue, make them see that we’re not going away. Time is on our side or back in the closet like they want.

      And this will probably help out pro-gay Democrats like Barbara Boxer in the 2010 midterm elections.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 10:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John K.
      John K.

      A ballot initiative every chance we get until we win is obviously the only way to go. I’m glad to hear so much agreement because I was dumbfounded to read the hesitation in the news the past couple of days.

      Conrad: that attitude is exactly what we want– from the anti-gay folks. Keep the initiatives coming until they get so tired of it that their bigotry can no longer sustain itself. It’s obvious which side will have the endurance for this. It’s just a matter of wearing them down.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 11:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ksu499
      ksu499

      I definitely would not go down this road again until repeated polling shows 70% in favor of same-gender marriage. You have to have a substantial cushion on issues like this to mitigate the danger of people telling a pollster one thing and doing another in the privacy of the ballot box and the opposition’s throwing of effective red herrings (“but what about the our children?”)in the campaign.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 11:51 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Michael W.
      Michael W.

      @ksu499: That substantial cushion crap is what they said about Obama and the dreaded “Bradley Effect” all last year. It turned out to be a bunch of bullshit.

      We don’t need 70% support. We need to win. And the electorate demographics from the 2008 presidential election to a mere midterm will probably shift in our favor.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 12:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Gianpiero
      Gianpiero

      It’s imperative that we go back as soon as possible because, among other things, we’re not talking about an abstract issue of whether California’s gays and lesbians should marry–thousands of them are ALREADY married. Apart from the inequity between gays and straights, the inequity between one gay couple being married and their neighbors not being allowed to do so be must be corrected at the first opportunity.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 12:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      If the organizers of a ballot challenge are serious they’ll have to create a massive democratically run organization of activists who agree on political and tactical questions well before the public political fighting begins. Nothing like that exists now.

      They’d want hold a statewide open rally/meeting for people interested to discuss strategy, then refine that first discussion with have a round of mass meetings in GLBT communities to decide on a course of action using a website, local LGBT media, public access TV and similar venues to involve as many people possible in the discussion.

      All the negative lessons from the 2000 and 2008 battles should be addressed.
      -0- How to involve allies.
      -0- How to undercut across religious influences in the majority communities (composed of Black, Latino, Asian and Pacific Islander minorities) and among euroamericans.
      -0- How to raise funds and organize large scale door to door and similar kinds of outreach.
      -0- How to organize rallies at temples, cathedrals and Saddleback like venues before the election to stigmatize bigots.
      -0- How to galvanize the maximum effort from our own communities in the fight. Etc.

      That should be followed, well before the election, with another open statewide rally/meeting to hear reports on local thinking and elect a statewide steering committee to implement the political and tactical decisions of the majority. If the elected leaders decide they need full time managers they can provide a living stipend. But it has to be policy that all leaders, local and statewide, paid or not, serve at the sufferance of the movement and are subject to recall if, for instance, they take leave of their senses and cluelessly decide to hire a motley collection of even more clueless straight people to run things.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 12:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Tallskin
      Tallskin

      Perhaps gays in California should hold their own referendum, just amongst themselves and vote on whether to take away the marriage rights of, oh pick your group!

      It would have no real point, no legal standing at all, but if widely publicised would make the point that such referendums are outrageous and it would be mighty amusing.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 12:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      Kate Kendall needs to look up the word “enormity.”

      Jan 27, 2009 at 12:24 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ask ena
      ask ena

      @Tallskin:

      I have always believed this. To prevent it turning into a racial issue (as it already seems to have to some degree with the black vote), I believe we need a ballot initiative that takes away rights from a minority group because of an absurd moral threat.

      For example, a ballot initiative preventing single women from becoming teachers because of the threat of pedophilia (then cite the 2 or 3 examples of it in our lifetimes…).

      I believe we also need to put gay marriage on EVERY chance we get. I was very inspired by MILK, and did not know that Harvey Milk lost so many times before he won, and he never gave up. It just made him more and more determined. If we wait, the urgency will subside.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 12:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kevin
      Kevin

      Let’s get back at the root cause of what disempowers the LGBT community: invisibility. LGBT politicians have known for decades that if we are not constantly visible, it only hurts our chances at changing the tide. The more invisible we are, the stronger anti-gay Right offensive grows. In order to overcome them, we must constantly put them on the defensive. Otherwise we end up there ourselves. Right now, we’ve got quite a few of them on the ropes thanks to the slim victory they had, but also due to the tremendous protests against Prop 8′s passing all over the United States (and Canada & UK).

      We will no doubt see our old adversaries mobilize to prevent us a victory should we put it on the ballot in 2010, but the passage of Prop 8 is still so fresh that it might hurt them in 2010. The sleeping giant of the LGBT communities activism has been forcefully awakened by Prop 8′s victory and we’ve got to ensure we aren’t lulled back to sleep by waiting 4 more years. 2010 seems like the perfect mid-term election to see a real victory for same-sex marriage in California.

      The average heterosexual in CA may feel annoyed at having yet to vote again on this issue, but this may work in our favor. If people are growing tired of this issue constantly coming up, they might swing the pendulum to our side so as to put it to rest. Once we’ve secured the popular vote, we can go back to fighting on legal grounds from the perspective of the victors – which always seems to me to be a better position.

      As far as those who led the No on 8 campaign, they failed us. Their machine politics strategy is so 20th Century. We need a 21st century grassroots/netroots strategy that increases visibility and networking utilizing such resources such as Facebook, Twitter, Evite, etc. Our commercials MUST INCLUDE gay and lesbian couples and THIER FAMILIES. And most importantly, we need to campaign in every county where we lost by going door to door. LGBT Christians and supportive congregations must step up to the plate and counteract the anti-gay fundamentalists/evangelicals/Catholics by staging a Soulforce type of ride and going on the air to voice their opinions.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 12:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mad Professah
      Mad Professah

      Thanks, Japhy for weighing in. I agree. Who exactly in the NO ON 8 campaign did you hear reluctance from for going forward in 2010 for a ballot measure? Geoff Kors and Equality California are clearly on board, as is Love Honor Cherish, which was the #5 organizational donor to the NO ON 8 campaign.

      I really want to associate myself with BILL PERDUE’s comments above.

      The interesting thing about the Equality Summit for me, was “Why haven’t we done this before?”

      In other words, why haven’t LGBT organizations (and the foundations and major donors who fund them) thought to have a community-wide summit in the past? Would people have come?

      I think there should be another one in 6 months in Northern California and possibly another one in the Central valley, like Fresno.

      The Task Force’s Creating Change has moved around the country and generally helped to clarify and strengthen LGBT alliances where it has been held. The Equality Summmit could serve a similar purpose by being held annually in different cities around the state.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 12:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      The mistake that I, myself, vow not to repeat is the idea that this is simply an issue with the voters of California.

      I agree with the idea that ALL avenues should be pursued, including ballot initiatives simply so that the issue stays out there.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 1:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • The Gay Numbers
      The Gay Numbers

      I like to measure my efforts by the effort of my enemy to stop me.

      Let me ask you this because to me this is the most salient point: If Yes on 8 had lost in 2008, would they be stopping now and asking these questions?

      Here’s a bit of reality of check for you: Arizona did not have a ban until 2008 because the prior ban was defeated by gay and straight allied activists in previous years. It passed in 2008 because conservative activists dusted themselves off and pushed for it again.

      In CA, they brought back the parental notification bill on abortion (Prop 4) multiple times, including in 2008.

      Here’s the lesson: If you want to win stop with the navel gazing. Realize you got to win by any means necessary because your enemy is certainly thinking this way. And, if you are confused, they are our enemy.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 1:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darrien
      Darrien

      If you believe in something, you fight for it.
      Set a date by which you want to achieve something, and then start the snowball rolling to ensure you gather momentum to win. Fight for what you want at every opportunity and every victory, no matter how small,increases momentum. Although there may not be a unified approach on how to win, every single victory is a victory for the gay ‘community’ as a whole.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 2:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Bill Perdue: Bill since you have all these great ideas have you offered the leaders of either of these organizations assistance? This time I think we should all be more involved and not just as armchair activists.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 5:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kevin
      Kevin

      No. 14, The Gay Numbers….All I got to say is: Word.

      Word. To. Your. Mother.

      Thanks!

      Jan 27, 2009 at 5:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @getreal: I’d be happy to work in coalition with groups like No on 8 and HRC even if they are infested with Obamabots. But not under their leadership. They’re totally opposed to internal democracy in the movement. They’re losers.

      Armchair activists are the kind of Obamabot cretins who ran No on 8, who control HRC and who hired clueless straight Democrats to run the show and then sat back sipping apple martinis and watched us get clobbered. I’m not like that. I’ve been involved in the union, antiwar, anti-nuke and GLBT fights since the Vietnam War. Those ideas I presented are taken from proven methods of struggle that win victories. Although I’d be happy to work with HRC I’d much rather cultivate LGBT activist groups in local areas, on campuses, in unions and allied groups like MALDEF and the NAACP. They’re serious about winning and don’t have a clueless mentality.

      No advances are made by playing footsie with Democrats (sic) and bigot panderers like Obama and letting them call the shots. Their partisan interests are very often at odds with what the movement needs. That’s why they wouldn’t take on Obama bigotry and were slack jawed when Warren, mormons and catholics used it against us.

      We have to be independent of the Democrats (sic) and those in their orbit. It’s important to try to involve them in the fight but not under their control because they’re losers. People who follow them get run over by their bus time and time again. Some people like that. Most of us want to win. To do it we’ll have to be independent, militant, massive and democratic (no sic).

      We need to build a fighting LGBT left.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 5:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wolf
      Wolf

      Oh blah blah blah. They should just STFU and get out there and fight and do it. They’ve been jerking each other off and all of us since Novemeber trying to cover their asses. The day AFTER the loss they should have started playing for the next ballot. Instead of playing the blame game game The No on 8 Leadership just simply disgusts me now. What a bunch of losers. And to those out there who applauded them at the Equity Summit. That was just unreal. They obviously did not do their best because we lost.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 6:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno
      Bruno

      We need to wait for some of those 65+ to die first. Only about 300,000 of them or so. How long might that take?

      Jan 27, 2009 at 6:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bruno
      Bruno

      @The Gay Numbers:

      Actually the main reason the Arizona ban succeeded in 2008 is because it was modified to drop civil unions from the wording. LGBT activists in Arizona knew that in a year with so much effort being put into the Obama campaign and Proposition 8, they had pretty much no chance. There really was no viable campaign to stop the amendment in Arizona.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 6:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 2/3rd vote needed!
      2/3rd vote needed!

      what exactly is the process to REVISE our Constitution? I know we need two-thirds of the legislature to vote for it BEFORE it can be placed on the ballot. Why is no one talking about this? Can anyone imagine that the legislature would pass this with two-thirds? Am I the only one thinking about this? I sent an email to Courage asking them about this and never got a reply. Are folks in la-la land on this?

      Jan 27, 2009 at 6:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • flightoftheseabird
      flightoftheseabird

      @2/3rd vote needed!: We won’t know whether Prop 8 is an illegal revision until the Supreme Court rules sometime between March and June. What is your end goal about the revision?

      Jan 27, 2009 at 7:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • dalea
      dalea

      The NoOn8 leadership did such a bad job, they should be out of the next campaign. Many of the mistakes I saw were things that can be easily corrected. Have literature to hand out for one. And make sure it is in a variety of languages. Go to middle and working class areas with it. Take up offers of help, like from Delores Huerta of the UFW who had offered to make commercials in Spanish. We have more allies than the NoOn8 group realized.

      The demographic rule of thumb appears to be 1% a year. So the composition of the over 65 crowd will be different in 2010.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 8:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pat
      Pat

      Who exactly is the Courage Campaign’s Board of Directors?
      How is Rick Jacobs director and chair?
      That’s democratic?!

      Jan 27, 2009 at 8:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pat
      Pat

      “The time for careful, cautious strategies is over”

      Yeah, let’s spend $40 million EVERY ELECTION.

      Let’s BANKRUPT the LGBT community!

      (Are you fighting for the other side?…)

      Jan 27, 2009 at 8:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Greg
      Greg

      @Mad Professah:

      “Why haven’t we done this before?”

      That was my first thought exactly.

      My second thought: I hope this isn’t the only Equality Summit. We need to have these things regularly.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 8:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Wolf
      Wolf

      @Pat:

      Lets spend it wisely.

      Oh and by thw way. Have ny idea what Lori Jean and Geokk Kors salery is?

      Jan 27, 2009 at 9:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • vernonvanderbilt
      vernonvanderbilt

      I’m totally feeling The Gay Numbers’ vibe here. I’m a bit of a revolutionary myself, though, so I would go even further.

      There is no such thing as an honourable fight if even one of the combatants lacks said honour. Our enemies (the only appropriate way to describe these subhumans) have no qualms about playing dirty. Well, isn’t it about time we took their own tactics and turned them against them? These people are a much more depraved and degenerate lot than we are…why not point that out? All this namby-pamby handwringing and attempted assimilation on our parts does not accomplish much of anything, at least not at a useful pace.

      The anti-gay churches, socially conservative interest groups, and homophobic politicians…why are so many of us so “hands off” where these troglodytes are concerned? If you want someone to come around to your way of thinking, you need to undermine their contradictory beliefs first. Prove them wrong, repeatedly, and if that doesn’t work…well, there’s always satire, isn’t there? And what happened to all the protests? Have they stopped happening or has the news just stopped reporting on them?

      It’s going to take money. It’s going to take some serious intestinal and testicular fortitude. Most importantly, it’s going to take work. Keep the issue at the forefront at all times. Get as much press coverage as you can. And don’t beat around the bush or hem and haw when you do. Speak directly, speak passionately, speak honestly. So we’re outnumbered? When aren’t we?

      We need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and start taking the fight to the enemy…early and often. The modern gay rights movement came of age during a riot, for crying out loud. Let’s remember that much.

      So yeah, go to the ballot every single time they print one. Put it up for a vote over and over and over again. Roll out the door-to-doors and pamphlets, and do it until people get sick of it. If they vote for us just to shut us up…well, hey, they still voted for us. A win is a win, dirty or not.

      Go get dirty already.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 10:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @Bruno:

      He Bruno? See this middle finger sticking up in the air?

      Well, perch on it, you ageist asshole. I’m 72 year young and I have been a gay activist since Stonewall. Many of the rights you enjoy today were won by the 65+ crowd you are waiting for to kick the bucket.

      Show a little appreciation for those who helped pave the way for you.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 10:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Bill Perdue:I’d be happy to work in coalition with groups like No on 8 and HRC even if they are infested with Obamabots. But not under their leadership. They’re totally opposed to internal democracy in the movement. They’re losers.

      Actually I was AT the Courage Coalition’s activist training and the day was dedicated to giving people tools and resources to build infrastructure. The whole day was about this movement being democratic and building new leaders. At one point Rick Jacobs pointed out none of us (the organizers) are getting on stage today because YOU out in the audience are the leaders we are going to give you the tools. Hundreds of people spent about 10 hours getting instruction and assistance the only directive being we need new voices new points of view let’s build an army to protect all americans civil rights. I have read previous post of yours and you are what I suspected a blowhard who criticizes but won’t get off his old keister and contribute. (I’D BE HAPPY TO WORK… BUT THEY ARE LOSERS.) For all your talk you are not doing anything to contribute but flap your gums and bad talk others who are at least trying that makes you a LOSER.

      Jan 27, 2009 at 11:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • 2/3rd vote needed!
      2/3rd vote needed!

      @flightoftheseabird: Thanks flight… pretty handle! I have no goal except to educate folks on the process, which is NEVER discussed. And frankly, I am doing a lousy job of it b/c no one, xcept you has listened and I post wherever I can. I feel so invisible on this issue. I hope the Court rules 8 illegal! But if it is legal, I think Courage Campaign should evaluate the dim prospects of getting 2/3 vote from the legislature before investing all that moolah. At the same time I love their initiative and resolve. Maybe we need a prop to instruct the legislature to vote the 2/3 b/4 we invest in a popular vote? When we lost this we lost BIG time and it really sucks!

      Jan 28, 2009 at 12:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob
      Rob

      @Flightoftheseabird: Does anyone think there’s a real chance that the California Supreme Court will rule on this before June?

      Jan 28, 2009 at 12:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jennifer
      Jennifer

      @Kevin: What Kevin said, and a few more points/questions:

      One, I’m wonder where Rick Jacobs and the Courage Campaign get off in saying they’re leading the way on the 2010 ballot initiative? Are they affiliated or working with Yes! On Equality, that filed paperwork to begin the signature gathering effort over three weeks ago with the CA AG’s office? Or are we going to have two separate signature-gathering efforts to totally screw us over and off the ballot completely in 2010?

      Though I was initially hesitant about putting marriage on the ballot in ’10, mainly due to the conservative nature of midterm elections and concerned that a galvanized wingnut base might hurt Dem/Progressive candidates, I’m increasingly being swayed by arguments to make a pest out of myself electorally until I get my damn rights back. Bill Perdue is on to something here, we’re obviously taken for granted by the Democrats and the only way we’re going to correct that is by all voting Republican or making ourselves an obstacle to Democratic victories — meaning, they either work with us to secure our rights in legislatures or know that we’re going to fight for them ourselves, regardless of the impact on their re-election campaigns…but they can’t ignore us anymore.

      Finally, Mad Professah — thank you for being the first person, besides me to mention Fresno on Queerty. If you look at the detailed analysis of the base for Yes votes and the “moveables” — and you want to know where to find a lot of those people, you need look no further than the Central Valley. The Courage Campaign shouldn’t just hold one training here, they should be based out of here.

      Jan 28, 2009 at 12:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Flex
      Flex

      I don’t believe in voting for our rights, but we may have too. The christian inquisionists
      would like it if we didn’t do anything. So, why give them any pleasure?

      If we don’t do anything, we should float an amendment, to the California voters, stating that prop 8 supporters should be denied marriage equality. They wouldn’t be very popular in a belittlement referendum either! It would also treat them to their own brand of poison!

      Jan 28, 2009 at 11:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Flex
      Flex

      @Rob:

      Yes, I do. The court will rule on the case within 90 days of hearing oral arguments. This is the standard procedure. I’m not a legal expert, but here is a link to the California Supreme Court, and the page that has been designated to the Prop 8 challenge.

      The most interesting argument comes from our AG, Gerry Brown, on December 19, 08′, beginning on pages 75-91. His argument illustrates the religious right’s abuse of the ballot process in California. He couldn’t have said it better.

      http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/supreme/highprofile/prop8.htm

      Jan 28, 2009 at 11:49 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Flex
      Flex

      @ksu499:

      Are you a religious zealot Republican infiltrator?

      Jan 28, 2009 at 11:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @getreal:
      First, little fella, let’s try to get the politics settled. I’m not worried if you don’t like me but I am a little pissed that people like you never learn. I criticized No on 8, HRC and many like minded groups because they’re front groups for the Democrats (sic). The Democratic (sic) party’s leadership are bigots or they pander to bigots. That starts at the top. With Obama; he’s a bigot. Biden voted for DOMA, Frank gutted ENDA, the Clintons are bigots and racists… etc. I’m not referring here to no-clout camp followers like yourself or to people who got flimflammed by the hopey changey hype. They just made a mistake; you’re making a career of being wrong.

      You need to address those political questions instead of trying to divert the discussion with silly comments about your happy times at a conference. If it made you want to ‘do a little dance’ that’s fine but it’s also unimportant. It’s even possible that you might have something to contribute, but not as long as your politics are limited to doing what you’re told by Democrats. People who do that, as we saw on November 4th, lose.

      “will you offer the leaders of these organizations assistance”.

      Do you mean the Courage Campaign? Did you stupidly think my comments were directed at them? I didn’t mention them because I don’t know enough about them to have an opinion. I spoke about No on 8 and the HRC, and the only assistance I’d offer them would be to open the door labeled EXIT.

      We need to build a fighting LGBT left. We need to start winning.

      Jan 28, 2009 at 1:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BrianPrince
      BrianPrince

      When the Governator was seen on national television broadcasting the courageous efforts of California in leading the Nation to an accepting population, he said, “As California goes, so goes the rest of the nation.”

      That’s not really much of an understatement — from my viewpoint in the Midwest, I see California culturally… light-years ahead of us who remain trapped in the stone-age. When California wins a battle for equality, we all win a battle, it just takes time for the rest of us to feel the effect.

      From a legal standpoint, I really like the idea of removing marriage all-together, and substituting civil union — I see a huge issue with that, though, coming from the conservative right… it’s a religious ceremony in their eyes, rather than a civil contract procedure in which you’re essentially signing your life away to somebody who will likely cheat on you, alienate you, then take half of your stuff when he/she leaves.

      There really isn’t a choice about going back for another Proposition 8 vote… with the margin by which it won (and was subsequently overturned) it’d be a foolish thing to not take it back, and demand equality — every election… until people get tired of hearing it, and afford us the privilege of state-sanctified misery, just like our breeder counterparts.

      Jan 28, 2009 at 4:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Bill Perdue: First of all I’m not a fella old man. And it was not just a conference hundreds of people were actually organizing and DOING something.There are people as I type, phone banking, door to door canvassing, stuff envelopes etc. because of it. I get it I have read your posts for sometime all you ever do is complain and talk about how other people should be doing this and doing that. Being bitter and unhappy won’t change anything. DO SOMETHING. All you do is pontificate about what we should do as you do NOTHING. Lead, follow, or get out of the way and shut up.

      Jan 28, 2009 at 9:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • DonG90806
      DonG90806

      @Rob: The Supreme Court will schedule oral arguments sometime in the first week of March or the first week of April. After oral argument, they have 90 days to write their opinion. Of course, the can grant themselves a time extension, but that is a rarity. Don

      Jan 29, 2009 at 12:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @getreal: If people are doing all that it’ll produce results we can look at and judge. If your meeting forged a powerful movment we’ll know soon enough.

      You don’t have to read my posts and it appears you only read them to promote some silly personal agenda. If you oppose democracy in the movement say so.

      It’s common among right wingers to describe the the movtivations of people fighting for equality as ‘bitter and unhappy’ but the truth is we just do it piss off rightwingers like you.

      It seems to work.

      Jan 29, 2009 at 4:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Sorry life has been so hard for you. Calling anyone who does’nt agree with you a bigot, a homophobe, a rightwinger etc. is indicative of the bitter frightened apathetic person you are. I get that you are not a very erudite individual but is it likely that a rightwinger would be at an gay rights activist training on a sunday? Probably not. Since you are too lazy to actually WORK to contribute to this movement at least ask your doctor for antidepressants so your angry ramblings don’t sound so depressed and desperate for attention. Toodles!

      Jan 29, 2009 at 5:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cheesehead
      Cheesehead

      Why the rush? Assuming the California Supreme Court rules against us, and I’d wager that it will, a ballot initiative will be the only way to overturn Prop 8. There’s no time limit to fix that.

      Why not let open-minded young voters become a larger share of the electorate? Why not spend a few years working on a message, organization and fundraising? Why not try to run a public education campaign in the mean time to try to change people’s minds before you make them commit in the voting booth?

      Delay is only defeat if you don’t take advantage of the time you’re given.

      Jan 29, 2009 at 2:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bill Perdue
      Bill Perdue

      @getreal: Dearest toodles.
      You spend entirely too much time watching Oprah. And it shows. It was once said that the last refuge of a scoundrel was the flag but in your case it seems to be imitating, however poorly, talk show psycho babble.

      Obama is a bigot and a homophobe and people who don’t take that into account do lose. Like you. And because of you all the rest of us lost when he won. And if they persist in being Obamabots after Prop 8, after Warren and all the rest then we can only conclude that they like Obama because of his bigoted position on same sex marraige.

      I described a method or organizing that gets results and is anchored in a democratic internal life. Democracy means an elected not a self appointed leadership making patronizing gestures. Democracy means a discussion on strategy followed by a vote and adhering to the decision of the majority. You find that perspective disturbing and I’m not surprised.

      Now it’s your turn, but please, lose the psycho babble. It’s so… childish. Try, however difficult it is, to be real.

      Jan 29, 2009 at 4:08 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Rob Tisinai
      Rob Tisinai

      I attended Camp Courage, just as I attended the Equality Summit and a dozen other events. Camp Courage was the best of the lot because it was a day of building skills and learning how to accomplish concrete tasks. Nothing else has been as useful.

      If the Courage Campaign is trying to grab power, then they’re sure doing in an unusual way: by teaching OTHER gays and lesbians to be leaders, and by being as useful to other activists as they can.

      Jan 29, 2009 at 6:12 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John in SF
      John in SF

      Wouldn’t it make sense to raise the resources we need for a winning campaign BEFORE we decide whether to do it?

      We know it takes leaders – so lets identify and train leaders (OK we are already doing that)

      We know it takes gay people to tell their personal stories face to face to move voters. So let’s get a million gay people to tell Yes voters and Undecideds how prop 8 hurts us.

      We know it takes good media messages that actually work – so lets develop those messages.

      We know it takes lots and lots of money (unfortunately) so let’s get the million gay Californians and a million straight allies to throw $20 each into a savings account to fund the next campaign.

      AFTER WE DO ALL THESE THINGS THEN WE SHOULD PUT MARRIAGE BACK ON THE BALLOT

      Jan 29, 2009 at 9:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alfredo Munoz
      Alfredo Munoz

      You make rationalizations and excuses for this lecher.The man is obviously devoid of any morality or impulse control and hardly material for a pedestal.As a public official he should be setting the pace and showing an example.Those of you who choose to laud this man’s behavior under the auspices of “he’s gay so it’s okay” need to address their own integrity.This kind of attitude explains the Proposal 8 debacle as well as the underlying cause of the rapid deterioration of this country.

      Jan 31, 2009 at 4:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Katie Smith
      Katie Smith

      It is disgusting to read that someone wants to eliminate all marriage and make it a civil union for all. All I can really say to that is fucking idiots. Just because gay marriage isn’t legal that dosen’t mean you need to take it away from those that can marry. You would be doing the same thing that you have fought so hard for.

      Feb 17, 2009 at 6:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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