We know it takes leaders – so lets identify and train leaders (OK we are already doing that)

We know it takes gay people to tell their personal stories face to face to move voters. So let’s get a million gay people to tell Yes voters and Undecideds how prop 8 hurts us.

We know it takes good media messages that actually work – so lets develop those messages.

We know it takes lots and lots of money (unfortunately) so let’s get the million gay Californians and a million straight allies to throw $20 each into a savings account to fund the next campaign.

AFTER WE DO ALL THESE THINGS THEN WE SHOULD PUT MARRIAGE BACK ON THE BALLOT

If the Courage Campaign is trying to grab power, then they’re sure doing in an unusual way: by teaching OTHER gays and lesbians to be leaders, and by being as useful to other activists as they can.

Obama is a bigot and a homophobe and people who don’t take that into account do lose. Like you. And because of you all the rest of us lost when he won. And if they persist in being Obamabots after Prop 8, after Warren and all the rest then we can only conclude that they like Obama because of his bigoted position on same sex marraige.

I described a method or organizing that gets results and is anchored in a democratic internal life. Democracy means an elected not a self appointed leadership making patronizing gestures. Democracy means a discussion on strategy followed by a vote and adhering to the decision of the majority. You find that perspective disturbing and I’m not surprised.

Now it’s your turn, but please, lose the psycho babble. It’s so… childish. Try, however difficult it is, to be real.

Why not let open-minded young voters become a larger share of the electorate? Why not spend a few years working on a message, organization and fundraising? Why not try to run a public education campaign in the mean time to try to change people’s minds before you make them commit in the voting booth?

Delay is only defeat if you don’t take advantage of the time you’re given.

You don’t have to read my posts and it appears you only read them to promote some silly personal agenda. If you oppose democracy in the movement say so.

It’s common among right wingers to describe the the movtivations of people fighting for equality as ‘bitter and unhappy’ but the truth is we just do it piss off rightwingers like you.

It seems to work.

That’s not really much of an understatement — from my viewpoint in the Midwest, I see California culturally… light-years ahead of us who remain trapped in the stone-age. When California wins a battle for equality, we all win a battle, it just takes time for the rest of us to feel the effect.

From a legal standpoint, I really like the idea of removing marriage all-together, and substituting civil union — I see a huge issue with that, though, coming from the conservative right… it’s a religious ceremony in their eyes, rather than a civil contract procedure in which you’re essentially signing your life away to somebody who will likely cheat on you, alienate you, then take half of your stuff when he/she leaves.

There really isn’t a choice about going back for another Proposition 8 vote… with the margin by which it won (and was subsequently overturned) it’d be a foolish thing to not take it back, and demand equality — every election… until people get tired of hearing it, and afford us the privilege of state-sanctified misery, just like our breeder counterparts.

You need to address those political questions instead of trying to divert the discussion with silly comments about your happy times at a conference. If it made you want to ‘do a little dance’ that’s fine but it’s also unimportant. It’s even possible that you might have something to contribute, but not as long as your politics are limited to doing what you’re told by Democrats. People who do that, as we saw on November 4th, lose.

“will you offer the leaders of these organizations assistance”.

Do you mean the Courage Campaign? Did you stupidly think my comments were directed at them? I didn’t mention them because I don’t know enough about them to have an opinion. I spoke about No on 8 and the HRC, and the only assistance I’d offer them would be to open the door labeled EXIT.

We need to build a fighting LGBT left. We need to start winning.

Are you a religious zealot Republican infiltrator?

Yes, I do. The court will rule on the case within 90 days of hearing oral arguments. This is the standard procedure. I’m not a legal expert, but here is a link to the California Supreme Court, and the page that has been designated to the Prop 8 challenge.

The most interesting argument comes from our AG, Gerry Brown, on December 19, 08′, beginning on pages 75-91. His argument illustrates the religious right’s abuse of the ballot process in California. He couldn’t have said it better.

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/co...../prop8.htm

If we don’t do anything, we should float an amendment, to the California voters, stating that prop 8 supporters should be denied marriage equality. They wouldn’t be very popular in a belittlement referendum either! It would also treat them to their own brand of poison!

One, I’m wonder where Rick Jacobs and the Courage Campaign get off in saying they’re leading the way on the 2010 ballot initiative? Are they affiliated or working with Yes! On Equality, that filed paperwork to begin the signature gathering effort over three weeks ago with the CA AG’s office? Or are we going to have two separate signature-gathering efforts to totally screw us over and off the ballot completely in 2010?

Though I was initially hesitant about putting marriage on the ballot in ’10, mainly due to the conservative nature of midterm elections and concerned that a galvanized wingnut base might hurt Dem/Progressive candidates, I’m increasingly being swayed by arguments to make a pest out of myself electorally until I get my damn rights back. Bill Perdue is on to something here, we’re obviously taken for granted by the Democrats and the only way we’re going to correct that is by all voting Republican or making ourselves an obstacle to Democratic victories — meaning, they either work with us to secure our rights in legislatures or know that we’re going to fight for them ourselves, regardless of the impact on their re-election campaigns…but they can’t ignore us anymore.

Finally, Mad Professah — thank you for being the first person, besides me to mention Fresno on Queerty. If you look at the detailed analysis of the base for Yes votes and the “moveables” — and you want to know where to find a lot of those people, you need look no further than the Central Valley. The Courage Campaign shouldn’t just hold one training here, they should be based out of here.

Actually I was AT the Courage Coalition’s activist training and the day was dedicated to giving people tools and resources to build infrastructure. The whole day was about this movement being democratic and building new leaders. At one point Rick Jacobs pointed out none of us (the organizers) are getting on stage today because YOU out in the audience are the leaders we are going to give you the tools. Hundreds of people spent about 10 hours getting instruction and assistance the only directive being we need new voices new points of view let’s build an army to protect all americans civil rights. I have read previous post of yours and you are what I suspected a blowhard who criticizes but won’t get off his old keister and contribute. (I’D BE HAPPY TO WORK… BUT THEY ARE LOSERS.) For all your talk you are not doing anything to contribute but flap your gums and bad talk others who are at least trying that makes you a LOSER.

He Bruno? See this middle finger sticking up in the air?

Well, perch on it, you ageist asshole. I’m 72 year young and I have been a gay activist since Stonewall. Many of the rights you enjoy today were won by the 65+ crowd you are waiting for to kick the bucket.

Show a little appreciation for those who helped pave the way for you.

There is no such thing as an honourable fight if even one of the combatants lacks said honour. Our enemies (the only appropriate way to describe these subhumans) have no qualms about playing dirty. Well, isn’t it about time we took their own tactics and turned them against them? These people are a much more depraved and degenerate lot than we are…why not point that out? All this namby-pamby handwringing and attempted assimilation on our parts does not accomplish much of anything, at least not at a useful pace.

The anti-gay churches, socially conservative interest groups, and homophobic politicians…why are so many of us so “hands off” where these troglodytes are concerned? If you want someone to come around to your way of thinking, you need to undermine their contradictory beliefs first. Prove them wrong, repeatedly, and if that doesn’t work…well, there’s always satire, isn’t there? And what happened to all the protests? Have they stopped happening or has the news just stopped reporting on them?

It’s going to take money. It’s going to take some serious intestinal and testicular fortitude. Most importantly, it’s going to take work. Keep the issue at the forefront at all times. Get as much press coverage as you can. And don’t beat around the bush or hem and haw when you do. Speak directly, speak passionately, speak honestly. So we’re outnumbered? When aren’t we?

We need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and start taking the fight to the enemy…early and often. The modern gay rights movement came of age during a riot, for crying out loud. Let’s remember that much.

So yeah, go to the ballot every single time they print one. Put it up for a vote over and over and over again. Roll out the door-to-doors and pamphlets, and do it until people get sick of it. If they vote for us just to shut us up…well, hey, they still voted for us. A win is a win, dirty or not.

Go get dirty already.

Lets spend it wisely.

Oh and by thw way. Have ny idea what Lori Jean and Geokk Kors salery is?

“Why haven’t we done this before?”

That was my first thought exactly.

My second thought: I hope this isn’t the only Equality Summit. We need to have these things regularly.

Yeah, let’s spend $40 million EVERY ELECTION.

Let’s BANKRUPT the LGBT community!

(Are you fighting for the other side?…)

The demographic rule of thumb appears to be 1% a year. So the composition of the over 65 crowd will be different in 2010.

Actually the main reason the Arizona ban succeeded in 2008 is because it was modified to drop civil unions from the wording. LGBT activists in Arizona knew that in a year with so much effort being put into the Obama campaign and Proposition 8, they had pretty much no chance. There really was no viable campaign to stop the amendment in Arizona.

Armchair activists are the kind of Obamabot cretins who ran No on 8, who control HRC and who hired clueless straight Democrats to run the show and then sat back sipping apple martinis and watched us get clobbered. I’m not like that. I’ve been involved in the union, antiwar, anti-nuke and GLBT fights since the Vietnam War. Those ideas I presented are taken from proven methods of struggle that win victories. Although I’d be happy to work with HRC I’d much rather cultivate LGBT activist groups in local areas, on campuses, in unions and allied groups like MALDEF and the NAACP. They’re serious about winning and don’t have a clueless mentality.

No advances are made by playing footsie with Democrats (sic) and bigot panderers like Obama and letting them call the shots. Their partisan interests are very often at odds with what the movement needs. That’s why they wouldn’t take on Obama bigotry and were slack jawed when Warren, mormons and catholics used it against us.

We have to be independent of the Democrats (sic) and those in their orbit. It’s important to try to involve them in the fight but not under their control because they’re losers. People who follow them get run over by their bus time and time again. Some people like that. Most of us want to win. To do it we’ll have to be independent, militant, massive and democratic (no sic).

We need to build a fighting LGBT left.

Word. To. Your. Mother.

Thanks!

Let me ask you this because to me this is the most salient point: If Yes on 8 had lost in 2008, would they be stopping now and asking these questions?

Here’s a bit of reality of check for you: Arizona did not have a ban until 2008 because the prior ban was defeated by gay and straight allied activists in previous years. It passed in 2008 because conservative activists dusted themselves off and pushed for it again.

In CA, they brought back the parental notification bill on abortion (Prop 4) multiple times, including in 2008.

Here’s the lesson: If you want to win stop with the navel gazing. Realize you got to win by any means necessary because your enemy is certainly thinking this way. And, if you are confused, they are our enemy.

I agree with the idea that ALL avenues should be pursued, including ballot initiatives simply so that the issue stays out there.

I really want to associate myself with BILL PERDUE’s comments above.

The interesting thing about the Equality Summit for me, was “Why haven’t we done this before?”

In other words, why haven’t LGBT organizations (and the foundations and major donors who fund them) thought to have a community-wide summit in the past? Would people have come?

I think there should be another one in 6 months in Northern California and possibly another one in the Central valley, like Fresno.

The Task Force’s Creating Change has moved around the country and generally helped to clarify and strengthen LGBT alliances where it has been held. The Equality Summmit could serve a similar purpose by being held annually in different cities around the state.

We will no doubt see our old adversaries mobilize to prevent us a victory should we put it on the ballot in 2010, but the passage of Prop 8 is still so fresh that it might hurt them in 2010. The sleeping giant of the LGBT communities activism has been forcefully awakened by Prop 8′s victory and we’ve got to ensure we aren’t lulled back to sleep by waiting 4 more years. 2010 seems like the perfect mid-term election to see a real victory for same-sex marriage in California.

The average heterosexual in CA may feel annoyed at having yet to vote again on this issue, but this may work in our favor. If people are growing tired of this issue constantly coming up, they might swing the pendulum to our side so as to put it to rest. Once we’ve secured the popular vote, we can go back to fighting on legal grounds from the perspective of the victors – which always seems to me to be a better position.

As far as those who led the No on 8 campaign, they failed us. Their machine politics strategy is so 20th Century. We need a 21st century grassroots/netroots strategy that increases visibility and networking utilizing such resources such as Facebook, Twitter, Evite, etc. Our commercials MUST INCLUDE gay and lesbian couples and THIER FAMILIES. And most importantly, we need to campaign in every county where we lost by going door to door. LGBT Christians and supportive congregations must step up to the plate and counteract the anti-gay fundamentalists/evangelicals/Catholics by staging a Soulforce type of ride and going on the air to voice their opinions.

I have always believed this. To prevent it turning into a racial issue (as it already seems to have to some degree with the black vote), I believe we need a ballot initiative that takes away rights from a minority group because of an absurd moral threat.

For example, a ballot initiative preventing single women from becoming teachers because of the threat of pedophilia (then cite the 2 or 3 examples of it in our lifetimes…).

I believe we also need to put gay marriage on EVERY chance we get. I was very inspired by MILK, and did not know that Harvey Milk lost so many times before he won, and he never gave up. It just made him more and more determined. If we wait, the urgency will subside.