At the Naming Project in Minnesota, each gay kid attending the summer camp is told she is a “child of god.” And by looking into a mirror and then walking into the water, Lisa Ling shows us on OWN’s Our America, gay kids can have their sexuality and their faith! From the looks of things, this camp is the opposite of places like Ex-Gay Ministry and Journey Into Manhood, where young people are told they can change their sexuality by spending some time in the woods. Snd we all know what a crock of shit that is. “Everyone in this camp has heard many times over being gay is a sin, almost as though it was a broken record,” says the Rev. Jay Wiesner, pastoral director there, and who leads a congregation at University Lutheran Church of the Incarnation in Philadelphia. “Our hope is to be able to offer a place for kids to become at peace with you they are.” So long as they’re not being told, “And to graduate, you need to turn straight.” Which is what I thought I was going to see, given the title of Ling’s episode: “Pray the Gay Away?”
Now if you want to hear from ex-gay leaders, go here.
Ogre Magi
Gays should avoid that terrible religion!
CJ
Is The Naming Project Good For Gay Kids Who Want To Hold On To Jesus?
It appears so. For those who have faith in God (which most Americans do), it offers an environment of hope and reconciliation. Much needed… especially for kids that want their faith (and sexuality) to be a part of their life.
MickW
Yes, Gay people should not let anyone, gay or straight, stop them from expressing their faith.
Kev C
And then they all danced to Pointer Sister songs.
Yuriy
@Ogre Magi:
HAHA you make me laugh 😀
next time I see a baby running away from the altar where it should have been baptized, i’ll believe in your words that it is possible to run away from your religion
Ross
@Kev C:
No Pointer Sisters, but there was a Lady Gaga workshop where the kids explained to us (I’m the Program Director for TNP) what her appeal is. I get it now.
D Smith
@Ross: a person may not be able to choose what religious background their parents choose for themselves… but a rational logical and intelligent person should be able to deduce that the evidence for a supernatural entity is by definition lacking.
J. Calvin
@D Smith: I think that’s the point of the whole ‘faith’ thing.
BamBam
@J. Calvin: so, its better to believe in the unprovable even if it becomes unbearable?
Why is it that theists treat faith like the annoying kid treats home base in tag? “Ohh, look, I’m not touching it and I’m making a rational argument. Come and get me. Even if you disprove my words, I can just reach out and touch it again.”
Oprah
Actually if you guys watched this amazing Lisa Ling documentary on OWN network,(Oprah Network),you will see that this camp is great for the gay kids. It gives gay kids self esteem and self worth. It doesnt really hurt them to put a mirror before them and affirm to them that they are worthy.I think that is excellent. If alot of gay kids were told they were worthy, perhaps they wont have engaged in a life drugs and self destruction.
Hyhybt
@Yuriy: I’d be surprised just to see someone trying to perform a baptism on the altar.
Hyhybt
@Oprah: Well-said.
Jeffree
If the gay kids who attend this project develop greater self esteem and coping skills, then it’s hard to criticize.
At least 85% of the negative speech directed at me for being an out, gay man have come from so-called Christians. If these youths learn to counter that hate speech, they’ll do all of us, believers or not, a great favor,
Andy
Without faith and religion, there’s nothing to reconcile in the first place. I don’t know a single atheist who is against gay marriage for example.
Let go of that trash people!
boo radley
This debate is just like the debate for gay marriage: should we preference the normativity of a coupling institution over other, less traditional relationships? (marriage vs. communal living) Should we preference the existence of gay-friendly religious communities over complete disavowal of religion? (this camp vs. state atheism) What’s more realistic? What’s more desired?
I’m of the mind that I’ll take what I can get. I view myself as very liberal, but also realistic. Growing up in a very Catholic yet upper-middle class liberal environment, I was very fortunate to have friends in my religious community who were both supportive and liberal-minded. At a time when so many teenagers feel pressured to take their own lives because of their sexuality, I think any community which attempts to foster such positive, constructive attitudes is a good thing. Am I religious? No, not any more. But I believe people should be allowed to express their faith in a peaceful manner, and I also believe that teenagers are generally unequipped to make lasting conclusions of their faith (at least at that age). If we’re fine with being unable to vote until the age of 18 and drink legally until the age of 21, then we should be fine with those religious communities that do not harm or impair the development of these kids.
Atheism is prejudice
“but a rational logical and intelligent person should be able to deduce that the evidence for a supernatural entity is by definition lacking.”
A ractional, logical, and intelligent person should not need to imply that everyone who experiences something he/she does not, is not rational, logical or intelligent.
Andy: “I don’t know a single atheist who is against gay marriage for example.”
I’ve met many. They are kind of odd. On one hand, they reject the validity of Christianity, but then affirm anti-gay theology, and then use science to justify prejudice against GLBTQ people.
Ba
J. Calvin
@BamBam: Not sure what you mean by ‘unbearable’ in this context as it seems to be about people reconciling their faith with their sexual orientations.
Epistemically there is a breach between old-fashioned modernist-rationalism and faith. The former demands evidence because it presupposes that human reason is capable of grasping all that is real through systems of empirical observation; that which is not observed through empirical observation is not really real and since human reason is capable of grasping all that is real in this way, it is therefore in some sense omnipotent.
Faith posits the limited nature of human reason’s capability for understanding and the possibility of knowledge of truth coming from outside the scientific method, such as from revelation. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all heirs to the Platonic tradition in which the One cannot be disproven because even though human reason participates in the Divine life, it cannot grasp or conceive God-in-himself-ness because human reason is derivative.
Atheism is prejudice
bambam ‘Why is it that theists treat faith like the annoying kid treats home base in tag? “Ohh, look, I’m not touching it and I’m making a rational argument. Come and get me. Even if you disprove my words, I can just reach out and touch it again.””
Why do atheists make up a false account of the lives of people of faith to refute?
Homophobes do the same thing – spin up a false image of the lives and experiences of GLBTQ people, as if such lies have any power to convince us anything about our lives.
Hyhybt
On the existence (or lack thereof) of atheists against gay marriage: They’re around, and every bit as (insert negative adjective here) as anyone about it. They’re just as capable as religious people of treating their personal “ick factor” as meaningful (beyond it not being something they, personally, would enjoy), and, if anything, take the “the purpose of life is to reproduce itself” line much further than Christianity ever could, which makes up for not having the “God says so” line to fall back on. The “good of society” line, both can and do use.
Whether gay is good and whether God exists (etc) are separate questions. Treating them as if a position on one followed automatically from a position on the other serves only to make enemies unnecessarily, and to cause pain to those who agree with you one one but not the other.
Jim Hlavac
Without delving into all the comments, I somehow sense that with this, and many other stories, and the Westboro church decision by the Supreme Court, and Gaga with Target, and so many other stories bubbling up everywhere — this is it — this is our moment. This is the beginning of the end of this debate. I feel that now is our time, in an Ecclesiastes sort of way — for every thing there is a time — and I cannot tell you why other than a vague sensation that I have, that this is all over. Hallelujah and Amen. Weird, I can point to no one thing that says: That!
But I can see the handwriting on the wall. This long nightmare is coming to a conclusion, within even the next four to six years. I know many don’t agree, but never have I felt more positive. Never. And I’ve been at this since 1970. The relief, the joy, — well maybe I’m wrong. But still, never before have I felt this way.
Mark
I think its “good” for kids who were brought up brainwashed into christianity or who are vulnerable and looking to find inclusion and support. So no, it’s not good. It’s still a damn cult.
Mark
@Jeffree: I don’t find it hard to criticize at all. It’s all wrapped up in unnecessary god and jesus stuff. It still reinforces that to be good, and to be accepted, you need to be a “good christian” and prove your love of god to everyone. What a shame, because the rest of it is so empowering. It’s like the worst thing would be to say you are an athiest to this camp or to their parents.
tallskin2
Oh Jesus!
[img]http://www.jesusandmo.net/2007/02/01/next/[/img]
Aaron
@J. Calvin: Careful there. Such big words and fanciful ideas are bound to burst the veins of many “WTF; All you people are stupid brainwashed sheep if you believe in god! Everything is black and white, don’t you see? Who cares if I haven’t actually done scholarly research on theology! ALL HAIL RICHARD DAWKINS!” type atheists.
I’m surprised nobody has pulled out the ole’ “RELIGION IS BAD BECAUSE IT’S THE CAUSE OF ALL EVIL IN THE WORLD AND BECAUSE LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM IT!” argument.
@Mark: The term “cult” is a subjective one. Technically speaking, it’s true/original meaning is simply a group whose beliefs and practices are considered bizarre and abnormal. This can apply to any group. Your ideas are just as bizarre and abnormal as theirs, or my own.
Shannon1981
Its better than the alternative, which would be many of these kids offing themselves because they can’t handle being gay. I don’t condone organized religion, because, at the end of the day it has done far more harm than good IMO, but kudos to the sects that are reaching out to gay kids and telling them they are just fine the way they are.
Kev C
@Ross: My reference was to film ‘Children of a Lesser God’ because it looks like a camp for the handicapped. And maybe gay kids are handicapped by society and religion and need special education classes.
But the program makes me glad.
Glad I don’t live in Wisconsin.
BamBam
@Aaron: Because of course, big words are inherently meaningful no matter how you use them?
@J Calvin: With “unbearable”, I was refering to the high costs of religious organizations. The catholic church, for example, claims its authority on the basis of faith and uses it to justify its crimes. Also, the platonic theory of forms went away a long time ago, and even if it survives today in religion, it does not clear away all the nonsense. Your statement that faith is all about the boundaries of human knowledge would make more sense if it could delineate those boundaries, instead of having to constantly backtrack and fight against all knowledge.
@AIP (18): Thats how they actually think. Notice that J. Calvin encouraged faith to understand the world is exactly something that cannot be argued with, because humans don’t know everything and never will. It does not mean however that it is not understandable if we did know it however. And the statement about homophobes is nothing more than an attempt and guilt by association.
justiceontherocks
@Mark: that “god and jesus” stuff may be unnecessary to you, but it’s where these kids live. I’m not the biggest fan of Christianity, but that doesn’t give me the right to tell others to ditch it.
kayla
Ummm…There are many atheistic homophobes…I have encountered many of them. The lie that atheism leads to some great enlightenment is truly ridiculous…There are some rather stupid, bigoted and downright mean atheists….What I simply do not understand as a person of faith, is why so many atheists are so angry all the time. Many of them don’t act very enlightened at all.
They say they don’t like religion because religion leads to prejudice, hatred and violence…But even when they are confronted by religious institutions and movements that clearly renounce all forms of bigotry, hatred and violence they still show nothing but contempt…I have to conclude that many atheists are just bigots who are pissed off that anyone dares to go against their way of thinking to believe in a higher entity!
Shannon1981
@kayla: There are bigots of every stripe, but face it, they are more likely to be religious when it comes to homophobia. Religion is the main objection to homosexuality, and they are the ones who run those foolish ex gay programs,etc. I respect people’s right to believe, but at the same time nobody will ever convince me that organized religion isn’t harmful at the end of the day, especially for queer kids.
Alfonzo
@Ross:
Hi Mike,
I want to give you a big PTL for the work you’re doing with youth who want to maintain their faith. I would have loved to have had something like this when I was that age. It would have saved me a lot of trouble.
Marz
As an atheist who attended this camp– I can say that it is a wonderful thing. No matter what your faith is. It is all about accepting yourself and becoming aware that YOU are okay. YOU are not an abomination, a freak, a f****t, or any of the names we get hurled at us. We are human beings and we deserve the love of ourselves and of people around us.
That’s what TNP did for me.
greenmanTN
I’m atheist (though raised in a church) but IMO it’s a serious error to attack believers and faith, at least as a gay rights tactic. Keep the two issues (atheism and gay rights) separate because attacking faith only whips up our enemies and ignores the fact that many gay people are believers and being gay and having faith doesn’t have to be an either/or thing. There are theologically sound reasons for churches to reject homophobia and progressive churches need to step up to the plate and challenge the Religious Right. Why let them be the only voices that are heard?
And religion isn’t just a set of beliefs, it’s also a culture and community people are raised in, often from infancy. It’s holidays that are celebrated, people you’ve known since childhood, and for many it has been a source of solace and support in bad times. Whatever your feelings are about belief, it’s unreasonable to expect all gay people to reject their history and the culture they were raised in.