If it was just a generational thing, then the answer for gay-affirming Christians would be to just start youth churches. But that’s not it. There’s this church in Seattle that has thousands of people, many of them young. But they’re not gay-affirming; they don’t even let women preach. One of the most popular churches in New York City for young Christians doesn’t fully welcome LGBT people. Then you look at the Lutherans — the ELCA [Evangelical Lutheran Church in America] said just a few years ago that they allow gay couples in relationships to be on staff and serve as pastors. They’re not exactly the youngest denomination in the world. Some of my biggest critics are people my age and younger. Legalism is still alive and well in the church because it seems to make sense. It’s “Work hard, do good, and be accepted by what you do, not who you are.”
—Jay Bakker, the “evangelical punk preacher” and son of Jim Bakker and the late Tammy Faye Bakker, doesn’t think gay acceptance will automatically increase as The Olds die off [via]
Jonathon
What I think that Bakker leaves out is the decline in church membership, particularly among young people. Churches all across the country are “greying”, as fewer young people continue to go to church once they are adults. I think that the tide of change for greater acceptance of GLBTs is inevitable, even if it is not coming fast enough for most of us to fully enjoy it. History is going to be on our side, whether the church establishment likes it or not. They are dying, we are thriving.
David
Atheism is growing at a faster rate than any other religion.
Atheism is not infected with vicious hatred like most religions are.
‘God’ is a useless dickhead.
Soupy
David, you have now opened yourself up to a brutal attack by Cassandra, aka Atheism is a prejudice. Expect to be villified.
Shannon1981
Nothing will ever convince me that there is anything good about organized religion. If it is on the decline…good riddance. I hope Jay Bakker isn’t right. I hope the young people coming behind us have more sense than to perpetuate that crap.
Francis
He’s right, in that young brainwashed religious bigots are still young brainwashed religious bigots, their youth doesn’t change the fact they are bigots. However, organized religion is definitely on the decrease as a practice with youth. Homophobia in general is on the decrease with youth. So the issue here is identifying the kids being taught negative messages and educating them and rehabilitating them.
Luis
I’m a youth leader at my church, I’m Catholic and gay. If anything, I should renounce it and say how horrible it is to our gay youth. But then that leaves those that are involved and gay nobody to look to when they face the same challenges I did at their age. In fact, I was asked by our youth director to share my story with the kids and the struggles I’ve endured dealing with being gay and practicing my religion. They realize that it’s a reality some of our youth struggle with and ignoring it does nobody any good. I was scared because I was expecting a backlash and having to endure the gossip and people turning their backs on me. But I was amazed at how many of them came up to me thanking me for sharing my story and how they see me as a positive role model that they can look to when they face the same challenges. There were also those that shared with me that I have changed their thinking and how they look at it. I may not change the way the church works, but I can help change the way our youth looks at us and teach them to be respectful of all people, no matter where they come from.
TheRealAdam
@Luis: You serve the enemy. You do nothing for gay rights and gay acceptance at all. Being subservient to a hateful, bigoted religion, no matter your role, is not making progress, dear.
@Shannon1981: But why should they? This is exactly the type of thing that I mentioned in a different post several days ago – young people are not one monolithic group who, just because they’ve grown up with more gay visibility, are automatically pro-gay. It’s absolutely foolish to think that once Generation Y and Z replace the current bigots, that things will completely change. Bigotry is handed down through generations. It doesn’t just stop.
Jeffree
Until these “young” pro-gay equality people start actually voting and getting involved in politics, they don ‘t do much good for LGB rights. The fundies get their entire parishes to vote, lobby, protest.
Benign, passive approval by people who do nothing will never win against active, motivated haters.
Jeffree
Until these progressive Christians start standing up against homophobia and for LGB equality, they will never match the strength of the fundies who actively work against us.
Atheism is a prejudice
David writes:
“Atheism is growing at a faster rate than any other religion.”
Maybe in an alternative universe. Statistics available on the internet, though, are so contradictory that David’s claim is either wishful thinking or a deliberate lie. Even atheist website tend to report that atheists represent 1% of humanity, and that the number is relatively unchanged.
“Atheism is not infected with vicious hatred like most religions are.
‘God’ is a useless dickhead.”
The second sentence, and soupy’s subsequent remark, disprove the first.
Atheism is only a prejudice, and at some level, is only hatred.
Jonathan and Francis are playing fast and loose with the facts. Some denominations, in some parts of the world, are “greying”, while others are growing and in particular, are drawing younger members. As has always been the case, religious participation is in flux at the time. People shift from conservative to progressive denominations and faiths, definitions change, and trends ebb and flow. One common trend in the U.S. is for people to leave their churches in their 20s and then return later when they having children.
Shannon1981 echoes the hate speech that homophobes use:
“Nothing will ever convince me that there is anything good about organized religion.”
Homophobes routinely assert that there is nothing good about homosexuality and nothing will convince them otherwise. So there’s another shared trait in homophobia and atheism – a completely closed mind.
So Shannon1981, Christianity teaches ‘do onto others as you would have others do onto you’ – in other words treat people the way you want to be treated. According to your quote above, you reject this idea, it is not good. While atheism has no moral code, no ethical code, and nothing from which to develop one, religions do have such codes and the principles to develop them from. So, to take your assertion and apply it to reality, you are stating that you believe that ethical and moral behavior, like not telling lies, not stealing, not murdering people, is wrong.
Because when you say there is nothing good in religion, you are denouncing all of the principles that all religions teach, including compassion, empathy, self-sacrifice, the rejection of greed and ego, and so on.
TheRealAdam’s post is verbal abuse and nothing more, once again demonstrating that atheism is expressed through hate and contempt, as well as lies.
The majority of all support for civil equality for GLBTQ people comes from people of faith, not atheists. In fact, the vilification of religion by atheists pretending to support gay rights, has the effect of antagonizing people of faith against GLBTQ people.
Jeffree simply either has not been paying attention the last 50 years, or is telling lies as well.
“Until these progressive Christians start standing up against homophobia and for LGB equality,”
Progressive Christians are, and have been standing up against homophobia and for GLBTQ equality (nice of you to leave at trans folk, Jeffree, shows how limited your support is) for decades. The very first rally for civil equality, preceeding Stonewall by a number of years, was a meeting of heterosexual, progressive clergy.
In the U.S., the divide is close to 50/50 on same-sex marriage, (and generally even better on other GLBTQ civil equality issues) a change that reflects the changes that have occurred in Christian churches in the U.S., while there is a dearth of pro-gay atheist organizations. Support for anti-gay theology is eroding, not because of anything atheists do or say, but because of the hard work and risk-taking of GLBTQ Christians and liberal/progressive/moderate heterosexual Christians.
The reality here is that while atheists, in general have contributed very, very little toward GLBTQ civil equality, they constantly complain and libel the progressive, liberal, and moderate Christians who have done the majority of the work, make the majority of the financial and personal sacrifice.
Soupy
Why would anyone intrude on your area of expertise? Your mastery of vitriol is so complete, for anyone else to even attempt it would be disappointing in comparison to your own efforts.
The sane Francis
And the sad fact of the matter is, the progressive Christians and progressives in general are scared to put their necks on the line BECAUSE of the God factor pushed by these fundamentalists. If they speak out against these people, you are going against God and what is moral, and the impulse goes off in these individuals’ brains. If you support gays, you’re going to hell. If you support gays, you’re a fag enabler. If you support gays, you are gay. This is also why although polls and studies show our support has increased, and it has overall, we lose when it comes to voting or battles in states when it comes to marriage rights. People know what the right thing to do is, but are too conflicted to actually do the right thing. The fundies’ hate towards us is stronger than the support progressives have for us, and it’s almost all due to the God factor and all of the extensions of it. And ultimately, it doesn’t need to be this way. We can use their arguments against them, but that isn’t being done enough.
Kent M
@David: Dickheads actually exist, unlike the scary sky being.
Atheism is a prejudice
The sane Francis wrote, apparently with a trace of irony
“And the sad fact of the matter is, the progressive Christians and progressives in general are scared to put their necks on the line BECAUSE of the God factor pushed by these fundamentalists.”
This is complete fabrication, a delusion so separated from the documented facts of millions of progressive/liberal and even moderate Christians taking a wide variety of risks, including losing their jobs, to repudiate anti-gay theology. Clergy have been defrocked for preaching against anti-gay theology, for performing marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples, etc. All of this is readily available on the internet for anyone honest enough to actually research the subject.
“If they speak out against these people, you are going against God and what is moral, and the impulse goes off in these individuals’ brains.”
This statement demonstrates how little its author understands people of faith, and Christianity in particular, and the arguments used by progressive/liberal and even moderate Christians to repudiate anti-gay theology.
Why is it necessary to lie to defend atheism?
“The fundies’ hate towards us is stronger than the support progressives have for us,”
If this were true, we would not have made any progress at all in the last 50+ years.
“and it’s almost all due to the God factor”
If you knew what you were talking about, you’d understand that for progressive/liberal Christians, their support for GLBTQ people is based on “the God factor” – on Christian principles.
Kent M
Rational arguments do not need to be expressed with expletives and obscenities, but hate tends to prefer such language.
Luis
@TheRealAdam
Please enlighten me as to who the enemy is. If you think that by me telling these kids that it’s ok to be who you are even though there are many telling you otherwise serves no purpose, I’d like to know what you’re doing to put yourself out there for others. If you’re helping establish a group where young kids can go to and talk about the issues they’re having at home and guide them to do the right thing, I applaud you. I have nothing against you. But to say I serve the enemy when all I preach is love and tolerance, and to say I’m subservient, I just don’t understand your reasoning or logic.
Matt F
It seems to me that we are in the twilight of organized religion as we know it. I am not saying that humans won’t ever stop being spiritual but the myths of the bible, koran, etc., will have less and less meaning. Moral lessons of good and evil will continue to survive in my opinion.
The present day organizations of religion can not keep up with science and technology. Some religions don’t even try to adapt.
It seemed silly to me at a young age when I was taught the lessons of the bible at church along with the fabulous Greek and Roman myths at school. I remember, at six, when I asked a nun where the stories of the dinosaurs were in the bible and she told me to “shut-up”. Then and there, I knew something was up!
Atheism is a prejudice
Matt F
“It seems to me that we are in the twilight of organized religion as we know it.”
Homophobes say the same thing about homosexuality. Maggie Gallagher often brags that it is only a matter of time before all of the civil rights advances that GLBTQ people have achieved are rolled back.
“Moral lessons of good and evil will continue to survive in my opinion.”
Moral lessons come from religion. Atheism has nothing to derive, build or develop any moral or ethical code on.
“The present day organizations of religion can not keep up with science and technology.”
Many modern day organizations of religion, and many organizations of scientists, find no inherent conflict between science/technology and religion. And many modern churches have embraced science and technology where useful or relevant.
“It seemed silly to me at a young age when I was taught the lessons of the bible at church along with the fabulous Greek and Roman myths at school. I remember, at six, when I asked a nun where the stories of the dinosaurs were in the bible and she told me to “shut-up”. Then and there, I knew something was up!”
Ex-gays tell similar stories about their life as homosexuals.
Shannon1981
@Luis: I understand his reasoning completely. Your church- the Catholic Church- is a fucked as they come. They condemn homosexuals and birth control and a whole host of other things, while they can’t keep order in their own house. Molestation and the attempted covering up of it is running rampant,as is all kinds of corruption. As a queer person, rather than kowtowing to that, you should be speaking out against it. As long as you are a part of that church, you support it and therefore work for the enemy.
Soupy
Atheism is only a prejudice, and at some level, is only hatred.
Fundamentalist christian homophobes also use this argument to justify their behaviour.
TheRealAdam
@Luis: Can you explain to me why you cannot accomplish those things for youth outside of the Catholic Church, and outside of organized religion, in general? Why is that you have to use those excuses as a defense for being a part of an organization that unabashedly denies your humanity and rights, and the rights of other groups? It doesn’t absolve you of the bigotry you take part in. It’s like a Nazi soldier counseling Jewish (or gay) children that it will all get better, not realizing that their participation in that organization is the very reason Jews or gays are being persecuted in the first place.
@Shannon1981: Exactly. Thank you.
Jeffree
@Atheism is Prejudice:
Is Christianity prejudiced against Jews, Hindus, Pagans or Sikhs? You seem to know more about Christianity than anyone I’ve ever known, so I’d like to ask you first before I get the answer from someone who doesn’t know as much.
Thanks!
(I was also going to ask for your favorite P. Gomes book but I’m trying not to bother you too much !)
David
Atheism rocks!
I can be kind to everyone without ‘god’ giving out to me about it.
Ogre Magi
Cassandra just about no one here likes you! Why don’t you go hang out at the christian forums instead!
Atheism is a prejudice
David writes:
“Atheism rocks!
I can be kind to everyone without ‘god’ giving out to me about it.”
Atheism has no moral or ethical code whatsoever, even the concept of “being kind” is foreign to atheism, and comes from religious belief.
Ogre Magi
Homophobes say the same thing. For some reason, the worse they behave, the more they expect me to cultivate their friendship, to think a certain way so they will like me.
This isn’t middle school, ogre magi, and popularity is not the highest priority in life.
Jeffree, your post sounds sarcastic. That’s all the answer you will get.
David
Yawn.
As I said. Atheism rocks.
OkeyDokey
Atheists ARE generally as venemous as religious extremists (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and their followers..). But not agnostics. Agnostics are more open-minded, less obsessed with attacking anything religious. They just admit that…they don’t know either way for sure. /////////As to Jay Bakker, I have nothing against him, but sometimes he’s brought to preach at this church in Brooklyn. Who in the world invites him to NYC to do that? What could he have to say to us or advise us on? That’s as bad as the gay out-of-towners who move to NYC and then think they can stick their noses into other peoples’ business.
Jeffree
@Atheism is Prejudice:
No, it wasn’t sarcastic. You’re interpreting instead of reading. If I were being sarcastic, it would be obvious.
It is an honest question. Actually it was two questions. Please answer one.
Thanks!
Atheism is a prejudice
Jeffree
All reading is interpretation. In a very real sense, every time our brains process any form of input – visual, audio, olfactory, tactile, etc. it interprets the data.
Your question relies on the false assumption that all of Christianity, billions of people over the course of 2000 years, hold the same view. Christians hold diverse points of view about many things, including other religions and other religious people.
Further, prejudice is an attribute that people can posess, not a trait normally attributed to schools of human knowledge. Is jazz music prejudiced against calculus? Is dialectics prejudiced against cubism?
When there is a conflict between the principles in physics, for example, and geological evidence, is that mean that there is prejudice involved?
Jeffree
@Atheism is Prejudice:
So your answer is that Christianity, in your viewpoint, isn’t prejudiced against other religions. I think that’s what you meant
If that’s the case, I wish there were more Christians like you. I was reading another blog on adoption, and some self-identified Christians were saying that Jews and Moslems shouldn’t be allowed to adopt baptized babies because the babies would go to hêl£, and I was hoping that wasn’t an accurate description of all or most Christians!
Can we talk book recommendation now? If not, save it for another day.
thanks.
Jeffree
Oops, I agree that all reading involves interpretation. But one has to use the text and its context as the initial framework.
That’s why satire works poorly in short form, and rarely works in writing. (Even in standup comedy, it can go very wrong). Jonathan Swift’s pieces worked because of their exposition and working/reworking a theme.
Articles in “The Onion” work as satire because of them being preposterous as events, but not as news stories. The pieces compprise a greater whole, but taken in isolation an individual squib (item) could easily be misinterpreted.
Eminent Victorian
The Seattle church Bakker references is called Mars Hill Church, and it has satellite locations popping up all over town. They promote themselves as young and hip, but they’re basically another cult. And they strenuously keep women in secondary roles. LGBT? Forget it. The thing I don’t understand, and it’s something that many churches do–they get clearly political . . . so why do we not revoke their tax-free status?
AncientLeaves
@Atheism is a Predjudice
Please show us all some proof for this statement:
“The reality here is that while atheists, in general have contributed very, very little toward GLBTQ civil equality, they constantly complain and libel the progressive, liberal, and moderate Christians who have done the majority of the work, make the majority of the financial and personal sacrifice.”
I have yet to meet in person a single Christian who doesn’t believe that LGBTQ people are going to hell. And I know a lot of Christians.
Soupy
The arguments against atheism are very similar to those of the anti-gay movement. Homophobic.
Atheism is a prejudice
Soupy lies amusingling, “The arguments against atheism are very similar to those of the anti-gay movement. Homophobic.”
And while his simplistic attempt does mirror the way homophobes claim “your criticism of my views about homosexuals is prejudice”, my material is not homophobic, nor do I mirror the tactics of homophobes.
And let’s face facts – Soupy provided no examples to support his claim, which is the sort of thing we see homophobes do here on Queerty, and every where else.
AncientLeaves
How ironic that you ask for proof of my statements, yet atheists consistently fail to provide proof for any of theirs, and more importantly, you did not ask for proof from any of them here.
Let’s try some simple math. In the U.S., support for GLBTQ civil equality is approaching the 50/50 point on marriage, and has surpassed it in the direction of equality, on most other issues. It is fair to say that, generally speaking, 50% of Americans support, more or less, civil equality for GLBTQ people. But, only 1% of Americans identify as atheist. There is no evidence of any atheist organization in the U.S. that is actively working to create civil equality for GLBTQ people, but, the largest GLBTQ organization in the U.S., and in the world, is a religious institution, the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches, which has for all of its history, worked for civil equality for GLBTQ people.
“I have yet to meet in person a single Christian who doesn’t believe that LGBTQ people are going to hell. And I know a lot of Christians.”
I personally know hundreds of Christians, married, single, divorced, who do not believe that GLBTQ people are going to hell. In addition to those whom I know personally, there are hundreds of thousands more in liberal/progressive, even mainstream congregations who work on our behalf. Queerty has actually featured stories about some of them. And the accounts of others are readily accessible simply by googling terms like “welcoming and accepting” or “more light”.
Here is one example from current events: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/faith/117839048.html
“The Rev. Greg Renstrom has big plans for the reopened Wesley United Methodist Church. Plans that could potentially get him defrocked.
He wants to hold ceremonies to bless same-sex unions at the historic downtown Minneapolis church, even though they would conflict with Methodist policy.
“Somebody has to do it,” Renstrom said. “I cannot imagine that Jesus would ever refuse to bless a responsible, mutually respectful and reverent relationship.” ”
Here’s another for you: http://queerhistory.blogspot.com/2010/08/jimmy-creech.html
“In April of 1999, Creech celebrated the holy union of two men in Chapel Hill. Charges were brought against him and a church trial was held in Grand Island, Nebraska, on November 17, 1999. In August of 1998, the Judicial Council of The United Methodist Church ruled that the statement prohibiting “homosexual unions” was church law in spite of its location in the Social Principles. Consequently, the jury in this second trial declared Creech guilty of “disobedience to the Order and Discipline of The United Methodist Church” and withdrew his credentials of ordination.
Since the summer of 1998, Creech has been travelling around the country to preach in churches and to speak on college and university campuses, as well as to various community and national Gay Rights organizations. Currently, he is writing a book about his experiences of the Church’s struggle to welcome and accept lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender persons. He is the Chairperson of the Board of Directors of Soulforce, Inc., an interreligious movement using the principles of nonviolent resistance, taught and practiced by Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr., to confront the spiritual violence perpetrated against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender persons by religious institutions.”
This link: http://tinyurl.com/4vamc9k will take you to a google search for “more light presbyterian churches”, and you and anyone else can learn about just some of the millions of people of faith who are standing up to end anti-gay discrimination.
Here’s another: http://tinyurl.com/4bmvhnw , this time “welcoming and affirming churches” which also has a substantial list of resources for you to explore. Let me know when you have all of the nearly 2 million links those two searches return.
Now AncientLeaves, you did employ the caveat “I have yet to meet in person” which is a great way to create a false filter – limit the data to only people you have met, and from that, make a conclusion about all Christians. That is not honest of course. Perhaps honesty is not a value you value.
But I’ve seen plenty of homophobes say “I’ve yet to meet a homosexual person who wasn’t x” where x is something perceived as bad – doing drugs, sleeping around, miserable and depressed, a sex addict, etc.
What you, and the homophobes, don’t realize is that the filter “I have yet to meet in person” introduces the element of your own life and character – you meet x kind of people because of who you are, what you do with your life, how you interact with people.
Atheism = prejudice
Jeffree
Actually, what I was trying to indicate that your question itself really isn’t answerable because it is both too broad in some ways, and too narrow in others.
For example, take the concept of prejudice. I raised the issue: can a school of human knowledge be prejudiced?
So let’s look at a practical example. Physics, for example, has some very explicit, absolute rules. One is the Law of Conservation of Matter, which states that matter/energy cannot be created nor can it be destroyed. This law, of course, could be interpretted as an “unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes” about magic, and labeled “prejudice”. But the aforementioned law expresses the observational experience of thousands and thousands of men and women, to the best of their knowledge, it is the truth.
Or consider an issue I read about on the internet, where a literature professor told an author that the author did not understand his own work. When that author says “I was writing about x” does that mean he is prejudiced against other interpretations of his work? Is he not the one person who knows what he was thinking when he created it?
In standard usage, prejudice is something that people do or have. So, yes, there are some people who call themselves Christians who are also prejudiced about other religions, and in my personal opinion, that violates basic, fundamental Christian theology. I’ve been meditating on the idea that Paul, in his opening chapter of his letter to the Romans, sinned against the worshippers of Cybele and Attis (that is who Paul is most likely talking about in Romans 1:26-28) by denouncing their religion in a way he would never tolerate having his faith in Christ spoken about.
And then there is the question: What is meant by the word “Christianity” – did you mean only the teachings of Jesus Christ? or did you include the letters from Paul and other apostles, and additional canonical texts? Did you include all of the other diverse opinions within Christianity? There are denominations that teach that only their specific subset of Christians will be saved, and Christians who teach that everyone, of all faiths and no faith, will be saved.
So how could anyone accurately answer a question like yours about so incredibly diverse a group of people and their opinions and experiences?
niles
@Louis
I hope you realize that when your presence becomes known to the heirarchy you will be forced out in a cruel and vicious manner and will be barred from any further contact with children. Please save yourself this ordeal by getting out now and never looking back. You have no idea what you are dealing with.
OkeyDokey
A lot of the time, but definitely not ALL of the time : Religion : homosexuality=immoral=anti-God’s-will ; Atheism : homosexuality=immoral=Crimes-Against-the-State. Read a lot of history and you’ll see this.
the crustybastard
@AncientLeaves:
Don’t feed the troll.
Nathan
@OkeyDokey: What are these fictional countries whose persecution of gays is motivated by atheism? Hint: Not Nazi Germany, China, or the USSR. Just because a leader is atheist doesn’t mean atheism is their motivation.
WillBFair
Thanks atheism is a prejudice, for the well crafted arguments, although Idon’t agree with your name.
Atheism is not a prejuduce. Rather some atheists are prejudice, just as some christians are, and some jews are, etc…
Unfortunately, many of the new atheists are beaucoup self righteous and spend endless time attacking all religion, including their natural allies in the liberal churches, It’s funny, because to do this, these rationalists must rely exclusively on rhetorical tricks, such as cherry picking the record, ignoring the good work that mainstream christians do, and the horrifying cruelty of the atheist plutocracy.
To help out, I’ll answer Jeffree’s question. No, christinity is not prejudiced against other religions. Rather, some christians are prejudiced against other religions, just as some atheists are prejudiced against all religion.
I can’t belive this has to be said over and over. But there are good and bad people in all groups. Get a f–k— clue, people.
D Smith
@Nathan: besides which it is well documented that hitler was catholic… and had the support of the vatican during world war 2.
Pat Duffy
Personally, I’m tired of the concept that there are two choices:
Christianity or Atheism
I’ve been a member of a polytheistic religion since the 70’s when I chose not to play this silly game. ‘Course, at the time Atheism was run by Mad Murray in the USA and their opinon of us was no different than those of the Christians;>.
TheRealAdam
I’d prefer that people not debate the validity of glorified, cultish fairy tales to begin with.
In discussing religion and giving it any kind of legitimacy of thought beyond condemnation, EVERYONE loses. Period.
Mark
The bible is so full of contradictions and nonsensicalness passages that in order to accept it first you must deny logic and common sense and second you must make yourself a hypocrite.
Todays “Christians” are so adept at choosing which parts of the Bible they follow and which they ignore that they don’t even realize they are doing it.
People are insecure and they yearn to be on the side of “right.” People want to try to control things that are beyond their control. Death and mortality. Religion is the pathetic attempt to do that.
Soupy
anti-atheism = prejudice.
Any attempt to paint a whole group with singular motivations and thoughts is prejudice and akin to the tactics of homophobes.
The sane Francis
At the end of the day, it comes down to this. Why would anyone support a group of people who actively seek to disenfranchise you at every level of your existence? I’m not even talking about whether you believe in God or not. But why would you give money and support to the same people who attack you and condemn you for who you are? It’s like some people don’t want to be honest about what the real problems are.
tallskin2
@WillBFair- you say: “Thanks atheism is a prejudice, for the well crafted arguments”
Are you serious?
How can you possibly read cassandra’s pathetic attempt at logic and say it is “well crafted”??
I can only assume that you’ve never ever read a well crafted argument in order to write that. Either that or you were off your head on some mind destroying hallucinogen when you read it.
And what the fuck does all this mean? –
“…many of the new atheists are beaucoup” (‘beaucoup’ means ‘A Lot’)
“self righteous and spend endless time attacking all religion,(no, we attack homophobic christian/muslim cunts who attack gays),
“..It’s funny, because to do this, these rationalists (meaning, no doubt, by contrast, that YOU and your fellow christians are not rational)
“..must rely exclusively on rhetorical tricks, (what, like asking for a tiny, itsy bit of evidence when nutters like cassandra claim there is a sky pixie?? Is that a ‘rhetorical trick’ to ask for evidence??)
“..such as cherry picking the record” (‘cherry picking’??!!! Do you know what ‘cherry picking’ means? Ok, let’s assume you do. So, go note the overwhelming number of reports of religious homophobic horror on these very Queerty boards and count the number of them. Seems quite a consistent pattern of behaviour there. And all related to the behaviour of religiously afflicted bigots claiming endorsement from their own particular sky pixie belief. That’s hardly ‘cherry picking’. The evidence of overwhelming religious bigotry is, well overwhelming, except to an idiot who can’t see.)
“…ignoring the good work that mainstream christians do.” (You mean campaigning against birth control, against allowing a woman’s right to choose an abortion? Keeping the population of the Philippines, ill-educated, overpopulated and dirt poor etc etc etc. Or am I merely cherry picking the evidence of christians being a bad influence in the world?)
“….and the horrifying cruelty of the atheist plutocracy.” (Quite honestly, I have no fucking idea what this means, particularly since the USA is run by a bunch of plutocratic christian nutters. And no atheist would ever be elected president. No atheist plutocracy in the USA then!)
If this sort of gibberish is all you can write then it’s not a surprise you think Cassandra can construct a well crafted argument.
the crustybastard
@WillBFair:
In condemning sophistry, you compulsively engage in it.
However, it is not fair to excuse Christianity for the bad behavior of its practitioners at the same time you credit Christianity for the good behavior of its practitioners.
That is — how do you say? “Cherry-picking.”
As you’ve proven that you clearly don’t understand what a “well-crafted argument” is, your first point hardly needs further dismantling.
What’s more, merely because a thing is not inherently religious, it is not —axiomatically — inherently atheistic. A plutocracy is no more atheistic than a zoo. However, I would hasten to point out that while there are such things as the Vatican Bank, the Kingdom Bank (UK), the Islamic Development Bank, there is no such thing as the Atheist Bank or the First Bank of Nonbelievers.
Finally, your blithe dismissal of the torture-murders and exterminations of hundreds of thousands — perhaps millions — of “heretics” that attends your statement “christinity [sic] is not prejudiced against other religions,” is evidence enough of your lack of both education and conscience.
Paul F
I have this can of gasoline sitting here, may I use it to put out this flame “war”? The Christian “religion” was an invention of Saul of Tarsus.(The sucker who appropriated my name of Paul)His religion by and large now has little or nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. He faked the whole blindness and recovery on the road to Damascus thing for one purpose only. When Satan couldn’t wipe out the teachings of Christ by direct attack, he changed tactics and went for an inside job of elimination. Since Christ’s teachings were for His people,(the jews)who were a minority in the region, the devil figured to flood out the word by spreading HIS version to the majority of non-jews. Since they didn’t hear the original message, Paul could tell them ANYTHING and say his was the “real” deal.(Mere belief will save you!) If you read the Bible, it was clearly stated that THE anti-christ would follow in thier lifetimes with legions of anti-christs to follow later on. The one called “Saint Paul” is THE anti-christ and his teaching have indead decieved the masses. The proof is in “all” those “Christians” who despise so called liberalism. Should you bother to look up “liberal” in the Bible and compare it to what Christ taught, you’ll see they are one and the same. If you can’t stand those nasty liberals,I’ve got a news flash for you; You are in essance declaring that you can’t stand Jesus and are against him. When people finaly see the evil in the church, the reaction is to throw out the baby with the wash water when they (rightfuly) reject the church’s teachings. While some of you call God the invisible imaginary sky pixie (which I find amusing B.T.W.)there is a world of good to be found by focusing on what Jesus was trying to teach and acting on THAT. Whether or not you believe in Sky Pixies or Jebus, if everyone would treat others as they would like to be treated, this planet would become “heaven” on Earth. ….gets down from pulpit and goes back to reading.
the crustybastard
@Paul F:
It is well-documented that temporal and/or parietal lobe brain damage can cause intense religious feelings and even religious hallucinations.
Saul of Tarsus sustained a severe head trauma on the Damascus road.
Ta-da! Mystery solved.
No Satan. No conspiracy. Just generations of people venerating the lunatic ramblings of a brain-damaged fanatic because their ancestors knew no better.
Paul F
@49@the crustybastard: makes sense to me, conspiracy or not, the end results still suck!
Atheism = prejudice
WillbFair
“Atheism is not a prejuduce. ”
Actually, it is. I’ll explain.
Atheism has only one tenet or belief or statement, and that is “There is no god(s)”. Seems innocent enough.
However, the belief in God(s) is based on personal experience or testimony from other people about their personal experience. Religion is the product and expression of the lives of real human beings, most of humanity in fact, for at least as long as humans have been leaving things behind.
And atheism draws is conclusion not from any evidence whatsoever, but from a combination of intellectual maneuvering that mirrors the way every other prejudice establishes and promotes itself. At the most basic level, atheism is the rejection of the experiences and testimony of most of humanity simply because of who they are (people of faith) and what they experience.
So the surface and sole belief of atheism (There is no God) is really, at its root, “all people of faith are wrong about everything, to blame for everything, etc”.
This fits the standard definition of prejudice.
And this dismissal of experience and testimony is something that homophobes do about GLBTQ people all the time. We testify about our emotions, they call us liars. We say we did not chose our sexuality, they claim we did and are lying about it. We speak of love, they call it lust. GLBTQ readily recognize that homophobia is a prejudice from this behavior alone, why then is there any question that atheism is also a prejudice, when it displays all of the same characteristics and behaviors?
But more tangibly, the way atheism is expressed, consistently, is in the language and arguments of other prejudices.
We recognize that homophobia is a prejudice because one argument used to promote it is the idea that all GLBTQ people are x bad quality if even one GLBTQ person is – as when homophobes point to some gay drug dealer, or lesbian murderess, or bring up NAMBLA.
Atheism is expressed in the same fashion, with religion being blamed for all wars, all corruption, all homophobia, etc. – even though all of the ills in human society exist independent of religion. All Christians, all people of faith, are blamed for the crimes, mistakes, faults of some, and all of the positive accomplishments of Christians, people of faith in general, are overlooked or lied about or simply dismissed. D Smith just gave a sterling example – invoking the premise that Hitler was a Catholic, to smear all people of faith. Of course, Stalin and Mao imposed atheism on their respective countries, and Stalin is responsible for nearly 3 times as many deaths as Hitler, and Mao bears responsibility for something like 11 times as many deaths.
Communist regimes have implemented and enforced atheism as a cultural standard, and are considered to responsible for 2/3s of all those killed by governments, guerillas and quasi-governments. Yet D Smith invokes Hilter and Catholicism as if it means anything about religion. Never mind that most of the men and women around the world who fought and died against Hilter were people of faith, simply because numerically, most people are religious.
Then you get folks like those here who use the “mentally ill” assertion about spirituality, even though when homophobes claim that homosexuality is a mental illness, we all recognize that as prejudice, as malicious, and as unacceptable in civil discourse.
And then we get to PaulF, who, like most homophobes, makes assertions of fact that are complete fabrications. His statements about Paul:
“The Christian “religion” was an invention of Saul of Tarsus.(The sucker who appropriated my name of Paul)His religion by and large now has little or nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. He faked the whole blindness and recovery on the road to Damascus thing for one purpose only.”
While there are some minor points where Paul contradicts Jesus, the majority of Paul’s writings are directly derived from the teachings of Christ, and PaulF, is simply either lying or nearly completely uneducated about the subject. Probably he lifted his ideas from some atheist source without ever bothering to test, research or evaluate the accuracy of it. And PaulF claims to possess knowledge he cannot possibly have: he would have had to have been alive, and in Saul/Paul’s company, to know the material he presents in the last paragraph.
This deceit is standard practice in the articulation and defense of atheism, and it is also standard practice in homophobia. Homophobes make claims about things they cannot possibly know, such as the emotional life and inner thoughts of GLBTQ people, as PaulF did regarding Paul. Homophobes distort and abuse any text they find useful, spinning up elaborate lies to defend their prejudice, as PaulF has done here.
And there’s another standard tactic used by homophobes and other bigots at work here as well – personal attack and avoidance as a substitute for civil discourse and discussion. Rather than actually address the material I presented, tallskin2, crustybastard, PaulF, and company engage in personal abuse, verbal bullying essentially, and trot out the same old tired arguments as diversions. While atheism often portrays itself as the rational and logical position, its adherents rarely demonstrate either quality, and tend to go as far as they can in the other direction.
Atheism is indeed just a prejudice, and the posts from its defenders here provide substantiating evidence. And yes, they insist that they are not bigots, not prejudiced, but then
so do homophobes.
And racists.
And misogynists.
Soupy
So the surface and sole belief of atheism (There is no God) is really, at its root, “all people of faith are wrong about everything, to blame for everything, etc”.
So the sole belief of christianity (There is a god) is really, at it’s root, that all those who don’t believe are wrong, evil, and condemned to hell. While they insist that this is not a prejudice
so do homophobes
and racists
and misogynists.
D Smith
i hate to contradict you cassandra… but atheist in fact do not believe there is no god, we do not care if there were or not because without evidence it does not matter if that entity did indeed exist. if we choose to believe in your mystical sky pixie we lose much in the way of scientific rationalism… indeed we embrace a world view that champions remaining ignorant to the wonders of (including and not limited to): geology, astronomy, microbiology, psychiatry, neurobiology, particle physics, ect ect ect ad noseum.
now tell me… compared to all of the observable testable and repeatable successes that science has provided… following your own books rules, when was the last prediction the bible ever made come true? here is a hint… never.
Soupy
I still don’t understand how generalizing that all atheists think the same and are prejudice is any different than assuming that all christians are the same and prejudice. Cassandra can’t explain this, can anyone else?
WillBFair
@the crustybastard: There’s plenty of bad behaviour on all sides, dingbat.
And I don’t need anyone to teach me logic. I learned it at a very young age from Plato and Aristotle and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, and others. To paraphrase the good Dr., try judging people by the content of their character, instead of condemning others by catagory like the fundies do.
I won’t bother to point out all the rhetorical games in your arguments. You guys are bigots, streotyping entire grouos of people, ignoring the good that people do, ignoring your allies, and blaming everything on one group. It’s the oldest game in the book.
Bigots don’t resond to logic. They have unlimited lies and rationalizations to bolster their seething hatreds.
I think gay bigots do it to act act self hatred, to sabotage our movement by allienating our allies.
Paul F
@Atheism = prejudice: Sorry sweety but I’m VERY gay, not a homophobe, just ask my can’t get married “hubby” of 15+ years. 2)I not only believe but PRACTICE the teachings of Christ.(unlike some folks who claim to be “christians”)I didn’t lift any athiest’s source material, sorry. 3) I’m what is quaintly called a “born again” christian and the “knowlege” I couldn’t possibly have access to came directly from the Holy Spirit. With risk of being accused of brain trauma, when said event occured, I felt a definate surge of electricity flowing through my body. As an electrician, I personaly KNOW what it feels like to be electrocuted and recognise the feeling. (The person doing the “laying on of hands rite” said that they felt intense heat, but they could have just been saying that to make me feel good and keep the money coming in.) As far as my (opinion for YOUR comfort)of Saul goes, he has no place in dictating christian theology what so ever because there is only ONE source of that and it is the teachings of Jesus.(That was the whole purpose of all those miracles, to “prove” HE was authorised to talk for God.) But you ARE correct in that I didn’t go to an anti-christ approved seminary that is deemed manditory now a days to talk “church speak” dogma. Neither did Jesus when the officials of his day accused him of not toeing thier official line of approved dogma. They KILLED him for that audacity! Kindly refrain from doing so to me, thank you very much. All others, MYSELF INCLUDED, are just so much noise. (There, feel better?) It’s kinda like the song, “My own personal Jesus”. If the “voices in your head” are at odds with the Golden Rule, it ain’t the Holy Spirit talking, it’s just yourself, or worse. (See Fred Phelps for a shining example of that one.) So using YOUR example of logic, you have now become the one who’s engaging in “personal abuse,verbal bullying, and lies because my comments are based on revieled FAITH, just like yours are. See sweetness I didn’t even call you a nasty name, I’m simply holding a mirror up in front of you and what you are seeing is YOUR reflection, and it wasn’t very nice now was it. See Soupy, we aren’t the same, that’s why there’s SO many brands of christianity. When we squabble amoung our selves we just form a new group and claim that everybody else is wrong and OUR group is the only right one! That’s also why Cassandra/ATHEISM=PREJUDICE and I will never change each other’s minds. We each think that we have THE ANSWER and the other is wrong. It’s when you start ignoring the COMMAND to love one another that the fighting starts. So Cassandra, you’re absolutly right…and so am I.
MikeE
there is so much bullsh** being spewed regarding Christianity in this thread.
the fundy meatheads who take the bible literally are idiots. and MOST other Christians know that perfectly well and wish they’d just shut the fu** up.
My husband and I got married in a Christian church. We were welcomed with open arms, by strangers of every age within that community. The wedding was beautiful, and it was open and sharing. No one talked about the fires of hell, no one tried to get all up in your face about anyone’s sins.
every time I’ve been to this church now, it’s been wonderful. and every time the pastor has said the sermon, it’s been about interpreting the Bible to learn lessons about how to be better people, about learning to love more, and to forgive ourselves and others.
there’s never been any pouring of salt in psychic wounds, never any accusatory tone. it’s all been about using the allegory in the Bible (yes, the pastor called the Bible allegory) to better our lives.
Hell, the pastor even brought up the Hubble space telescope at one point while discussing the wonders of the universe. That certainly isn’t a refusal of scientific fact.
Soupy
So the surface and sole belief of atheism (There is no God) is really, at its root, “all people of faith are wrong about everything, to blame for everything, etc”.
So the sole belief of christianity (There is a god) is really, at it’s root, that all those who don’t believe are wrong, evil, and condemned to hell. While they insist that this is not a prejudice
so do homophobes
and racists
and misogynists.
tallskin2
@the crustybastard – And of course the fact is we have no fucking idea what jesus ACTUALLY said cos everything was written down from 50 years to hundreds of years after this mythical figure’s death. The people who wrote the books of the new testament couldn’t have known him, unless they were very long lived.
OkeyDokey
I wasn’t including Nazi Germany in the list of atheist nations. It wasn’t really atheist. More vaguely pagan…some practicing Lutherans…etc. I meant the USSR, China, and Cuba as the mass-murdering (and homophobic) countries.
Paul F
Sorry to butt in again, was trying to get to sleep,but something Cassandra mentioned in passing is preventing me from going to sleep and I have to get up for work in 4 hours. She wrote (thank you cut & paste),”
While there are some minor points where Paul contradicts Jesus, the majority of Paul’s writings are directly derived from the teachings of Christ.” A story my pastor told years ago: when you’re trying to poison an animal, you don’t just lay out the poison in the hope that it will eat it. You need to put it inside a nice juicy piece of meat so that it will gobble it down and die. Horrible story, but he was trying to use an analogy. Those “minor” points are the poison in the meat. You’ve gobbled it down. I appologise for taking up time on religious talk on this site. No matter what the response you have to that point I’m going to refrain from continuing this thread as I have worn out my welcome. As much as I would like to continue this on a more one on one manner, I don’t see a way with out getting both of our e-mail boxes filled with hate mail. I had to chuckle though when someone mentioned that you (and apparently I too) can’t keep these missives to 100 words or less. The only way to do that is to revert to my childhood years with name calling-tongue sticking out-finger wagging. Thank goodness we’ve grown beyond that. Good night all, I HAVE to get to bed.
Atheism = prejudice
D Smith writes:
“i hate to contradict you cassandra… but atheist in fact do not believe there is no god,”
Homophobes make up their own definitions as well. They always coming up with imaginative new meanings for words like “homophobia” and “marriage”.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism
atheism: the doctrine or belief that there is no god
“we do not care if there were or not because without evidence ”
There is no evidence that God does not exist. But there is evidence of God’s existence, in the form of testimony from most of humanity for as long as humans have left records. Atheists simply chose to reject that evidence in deference to their lack of evidence.
“your mystical sky pixie”
One of the symptoms of prejudice is the inability to be civil. Just as homophobes categorize the love and intimacy between two people of the same gender as “lust”, so to, so many atheists use terms like the one quoted above, because it is simply impossible for them to converse respectfully.
“we lose much in the way of scientific rationalism… ”
Your inability to embrace two schools of knowledge that address very different things, does not reflect on anyone else.
One of the ironies of most atheist arguments is how divorced they actually are from science or rational argumentation.
“indeed we embrace a world view that champions remaining ignorant to the wonders of (including and not limited to): geology, astronomy, microbiology, psychiatry, neurobiology, particle physics, ect ect ect ad noseum.”
You probably should not have raised the issue of ignorance.
There is no need to abandon any of the sciences because of religion. And sadly, atheists on-line tend to demonstrate considerable ignorance about science as well. Many scientists are also people of faith, including the giants of science.
“now tell me… compared to all of the observable testable and repeatable successes that science has provided… ”
You failed to mention all of the many thousands of theories that have fallen by the way side, the false pronouncements, the mistakes and frauds. Let’s talk about all of the failures that science has provided, just to be fair.
Oh, wait, your value system, atheism, does not encourage fairness. It has no ethical or moral code, it does not condemn homophobia, or murder, or racism, or stealing. As long as you survive to reproduce – oh wait, that’s a problem isn’t it?
tallskin2
Cassandra says: “There is no evidence that God does not exist. But there is evidence of God’s existence, in the form of testimony from most of humanity for as long as humans have left records. Atheists simply chose to reject that evidence in deference to their lack of evidence.”
Priceless, simply priceless.
Soupy
So the sole belief of christianity (There is a god) is really, at it’s root, that all those who don’t believe are wrong, evil, and condemned to hell. While they insist that this is not a prejudice
so do homophobes
and racists
and misogynists.
the crustybastard
@WillBFair: I don’t need anyone to teach me logic.
Ah, well…that explains it.
Atheism = prejudice
It is always intriguing to watch soupy prevaricate.
The problem in the post he has spammed the board with is simple – Christianity teaches that all people are imperfect, everyone.
Prejudices though are about asserting that group x is inferior to group y. Atheism asserts that people of faith are inferior to everyone else. Homophobia asserts that GLBTQ people are inferior to everyone else. Racism asserts that people of x race(s) are inferior to everyone else. Sexism asserts that people of one gender are inferior to people of the other gender.
Or to be more direct about the root of prejudice, prejudices assert that one group of people is superior to others. Atheism teaches that atheists are superior to everyone else, homophobia teaches that heterosexuals are superior to homosexuals, and so on.
In other words, prejudice is about tearing other people down to build one’s self (or one’s group) up. It is a way of building up one’s ego at the expense of others, and yes, atheism is about the ego of its adherents, as is homophobia and racism and sexism, etc.
Which explains why tallskin2 thinks that his/her empty dismissal actually means something: ego.
PaulF posts are unusual, to say the least. He writes:
“Sorry sweety but I’m VERY gay, not a homophobe,”
Trouble is, I never said he was, though, it is interesting that he provided a defense anyways. There are, after all, GLBTQ people who are also homophobes. One such person heads Exodus International.
What I actually wrote is:
“And then we get to PaulF, who, like most homophobes, makes assertions of fact that are complete fabrications.”
The above does not call PaulF a homophobe, but does indicate that he engages in a behavior that most homophobes also engage in. And while a superficial reading might lend the conclusion PaulF goes with, because of the nested subordinate clauses, the actual shared trait is explicitly stated in the last clause: “makes assertions of fact that are complete fabrications.”
But to please PaulF, I’ll revise thusly: PaulF makes assertions of fact that are complete fabrications, just like most homophobes.
He made false statements about the man to whom many of the letters in the New Testament are attributed, Paul of Tarsus. He presented as fact material he could not possibly know, that contradicts Paul’s own testimony. This obvious deception on PaulF’s part calls into question the veracity of every thing he posts.
And isn’t it remarkable how “His religion by and large now has little or nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.” has now mutated into a recognition that Paul varies from Christ only on a few issues – and to add further clarity, those differences are also simply a matter of opinion among some Christians. Many Christians will argue that Paul never contradicts Christ. How much will PaulF’s story change in the future?
The conclusions about me that he jumped to do him no credit either, not that they make any difference. The sarcasm and other behavioral nuances in his post speak for him better than any criticism I could provide. I wonder if PaulF even realizes that the very argument he used to discredit Paul would also discredit him as well?
And lastly, we get CrustyBastard employing the standard tactic of homophobes across the ‘net of ripping a phrase or so out of context to create a false, pejorative impression. Many atheists argue that religion is not necessary for one to have morals or ethics, and yet, time and time against, atheists on-line rely on immoral or unethical behavior so consistently, one truly does begin to wonder if they even know right from wrong at all.
Soupy
Cassandra, what you keep “implying” is that the non-belief of an atheist is a prejudice by its very existence. Then you say that all christians are taught that all people are imperfect. But many christians don’t follow that teaching and do indeed feel that atheists are condemned. And many atheists do not feel superior to christians because of their belief. Ultimately, it is not for you or me to judge, and I believe that your comparison of all atheists to racists, and homophobes is decidedly “un-christian”.