On Friday, we invited you to watch live as the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America debated whether to permit non-celibate gays to become clergy. They ended up voting yes, in what one group will see as a sign of progress and inclusion, while another will see it as a slap in Jesus’ face.
Earlier this morning, a voting member of the ECLA posted a comment on Queerty sharing an anecdote from Friday’s convention floor.
It was about the anti-gay Pastor Ryan Mills, who spoke out against ECLA’s gay-inclusive resolution, and because he happened to star in this website’s screenshot of the proceedings, Mills became the “New Poster Boy for Hate Speech.” But as one married gay delegate told him, good might come of it. Read this.
I’m a voting member at the ELCA assembly who voted in favor of all the resolutions for blessing and ordaining LGBT people in committed relationships. I was was seated about 6 people away from Ryan on the assembly floor, though I don’t actually know him personally. I did not agree with pretty much anything of what he was saying from the floor, and there were several times when I was down right pissed off by him. In fact, I found it rather hard to talk to him. But I want to share a story that someone shared with me.
One of the other voting members is a Lutheran man who has been married to his husband for 20 years and with their children have found a loving home (along with other LGBT families) in an ELCA congregation. He had spoken passionately several times on the assembly floor about his family, about the pain he has experienced, and the rejection of the church of which he is still a part. This man is a regular reader of this blog, and he spotted this photos and comments as soon as they were posted. While I, a straight white male, had trouble talking to Ryan, this man did not. When he saw this photo, he quickly saw himself in his brother’s shoes. He went up to Ryan and let him know that he was the “New Poster Boy for Hate Speech” on queerty.com. “Have you ever gotten hate mail before?” he asked Ryan. With a shocked look on his face Ryan shook his head no. “Well, I have. And let me tell you, it sucks. But I will walk with you, and help you through it.”
The transforming power of Jesus speaks the truth when it is hard, and calls Christians to cross into unknown territory for the sake of love of the neighbor. One thing that I have learned from this experience is that we are all brothers and sisters, and all carry great pain. When we reach out from our suffering with love rather than hate–and can bear our brother or sister’s burden as if it were our own (even if that burden is homophobia) lives can be transformed, and old, old wounds begin to heal. It breaks my heart that we as the Church have failed to do this miserably (and in fact have done the opposite), especially for LGBT people, and that the conservative backlash is likely to make it even worse. But pay attention for quiet Christian voices (particularly Lutheran Christian voices) that are whispering words of reconcilation to one another.
What the ELCA has voted to do, at risk of its own institutional life, is to create an organization in which LGBT pastors and pastors like Ryan can be in one family. If there is room enough for Ryan, there is room enough for me, and room enough for you too. And if you think its strange that Christians would talk this way it is, but its what it means to follow Jesus. I’m glad we’ve made steps to reclaim what that is really supposed to look like.
Landon Bryce
Can we please politely discourage well-meaning straight people from continuing to promote the idea of the “Magical Homo?”
JT
So the takeaway is that it’s ok for people who hate gays to continue to hate gays, and we should be loving toward them rather than challenging them? I reject that, along with any religious body using the government, fear, or hate to insert their own petty worldviews into my life.
rudy
I don’t ever bother reading the lunatic ravings from morons like Mills, so I’m afraid I passed on the original.
I only tuned in here to see how and why Queerty had made him famous.
j
Sadly, following Jesus and being an institutionalised Christian are two different things. Hopefully someday (and by the looks of things, both in the UK and America that day is edging sooner, although by no means soon)they will not be different things.
WW3
The power of Jesussusis’s truth? Over it.
But it was nice to read about his shock at being on the recieving end of his bullhorn. Will it serve to defrost his heart, who knows? I give religion about 200-300 more years of influence before it collapses due to elevated sensibilies.
tavdy79
@JT: No, the take-away is that there are people out ther who actually practice what they preach. One of the best ways LGBTs can fight against Christian oppressors is to be more Christian than they are – to be more loving, joyful, peace-loving, patient, kind, good, trustworthy, gentle and self-controlled. When you consider what many Christians are like, this should not be difficult to achieve.
As the Bible says, by doing so we will “heap hot coals” of shame on them – and they will have to respond. If they respond with reconciliation we both win; if they respond with hatred they can only ever lose.
Hate is never a winning strategy. Anti-Black hate did not defeat the civil rights movement, nor will it: the more hate there is, the more support there is for equal rights.
The Nazis’ hatred of Jews, Poles, Romanies, gays and the disabled did not prevent their defeat in WWII, but did earn them a permanent status as some of the worst monsters of human history.
The CofE’s hatred of Quakers, and their attempted extermination of us during the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1630s-50s) did not result in our demise; quite the contrary – despite our small numbers Quakers are amongst the most influential religious groups around. Quaker philosophy as at the core of the US Constitution, and influenced both the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and European Convention on Human Rights. Some of it was even co-opted by the Mormons – then discarded when it inconveniently got in the way of the anti-gay crusade!
The Wahhabists’ hatred of everyone who doesn’t agree with their wingnut theology has already begun to turn on them, with both West and fellow Muslims alike increasingly rejecting their fanaticism. In time they too will be little more than an unfortunate footnote in history.
I doubt Ryan Mills will achieve even that. In time his name will be rendered irrelevant and forgotten, and his hatred will have built nothing that endures.
rudy
@WW3: ” I give religion about 200-300 more years…”
Nice thought, WW3, but the evolutionists who propose we’re wired to create Santa Clauses are probably right.
Remember how the Vatican house-arrested Galileo? They really thought if the people knew the earth circled the sun contrary to the Bible, they’d never believe any of its claims.
Even centuries after the discovery of germs and bacteria, we had Evangelicals claiming AIDS was “a punishment from God.”
Never underestimate human stupidity.
Normal Americans thought the world too sophisticated to believe the looney Joseph Smith with his Angel Moroni and plural marriage, but look at them now.
Ditto the Scientology cult.
Wait until the billion plus Chinese get into the religion business!
tinkerbell
Why gays continue to try the Christianity thing, I shall never understand. They hate, persecute, kill and discriminate against us for thousands of years, and yet some gays continue to go to their churches. What’s up with that???
They can keep their kooky religion, IMO.
EM
I’m hesitant to leave a comment as it might invite unpleasant email. But as a close friend of Ryan, I am shocked at how he is being treated. Whatever happened to tolerance and inclusion? Ryan is not a hater, a proponent of hate speech or anything of the sort. I have hardly met a kinder soul. He is, as many others did at the assembly, defending the historic faith. Those of us who consider ourselves orthodox do not hate gays. I would lose my job defending the right of a gay person to commune with me at the Lord’s Supper. As would Ryan. Yet, he is now the “poster boy of hate speech?” You know not of what you speak. I’ll pray for you and ask that you would for me as well.
Peace.
rudy
@EM: “I would lose my job defending the right of a gay person to commune with me at the Lord’s Supper. As would Ryan.”
Don’t pray for us – you need every prayer you can get for your own moral cowardice.
ras
why do i get a gay vibe from ryan mills…
D-Sun
@EM:
Leave me out of your telepathic messages to your imaginary sky daddy, KTHX.
tavdy79
@EM: Unfortunately Ryan’s motivations are irrelevant to those of us who daily live with the consequences of his actions. Hate is typically thought of as an emotion, but just like love – its antithesis – hate can be a verb as well. He may not feel the emotion of hate towards us, but he makes and action of hate every time he acts to deny LGBT people rights equal with those of cisgendered straights. We do not have the option of viewing his actions differently.
If Ryan has become a poster-boy for hate it is because of his actions, not his motives. As observers looking in, we can only ever guess at his motives based on what we see of his actions – and those actions speak of hate towards us. So if he or any other wants to avoid the reputation of a hater, the means of avoiding it is pretty simple: don’t (in the verb sense) hate.
WestCanuck
Just a question:
If Pastor Ryan Mills, who spoke out against ECLA’s gay-inclusive resolution, had spoken out against a Black-inclusive resolution, or a Hispanic-inclusive resolution, or a Jew-inclusive resolution (in a different context), would Blacks or Hispanics whisper words of reconciliation to him? Would a Jew seek reconciliation with a member of the National Socialist German Workers Party?
EM wrote:
“I am shocked at how he is being treated. Whatever happened to tolerance and inclusion? Ryan is not a hater, a proponent of hate speech or anything of the sort. I have hardly met a kinder soul. He is, as many others did at the assembly, defending the historic faith.”
Of what possible value is that? What value is there in defending a “historic faith” if that history and faith is responsible for the oppression of others? There might well be great value in *challenging* the understandings and practices and conventions of a historic faith, but *defending* a faith that has actively engaged in the harsh oppression of others on the basis of a heterosexist interpretation of a patriarchal religious tradition is hardly commendable.
Being a “kind soul” doesn’t give anyone a free pass. Until gay people stop being apologists and enablers and colluding with their own oppression in the name of “reconciliation,” there will never be any substantive progress. Religious organizations are generally self-conserving: real social change begins on the margins of society (remember Jesus)? Yes, we should seek to reconcile, but reconciliation without justice is not true reconciliation, it is a mockery of it.
Adam
This whole article stinks of bullshit.
PS – I’m good friends with Prince Harry and he’s flattered by all the attention his bulge gets him from us gays.
terrwill
Based on the picture of Ryan Mills, he looks like he is a bit of a big homo, you know the self hating kind who loves to hate himself……………
terrwill
ADAM: Where the hell does Prince Harry’s royal bulge come into play here???
Mike
Interesting picture. I always wondered what happened to Corky from Life Goes On.
Andrew
Ultimate result: Pastor Ryan writes a book or gets a t.v. or radio show. Puke.
Mike K
Oh please. The guy’s obviously a mongoloid tool and ought to be shot. Stuff this kumbaya crap up your ass!
Brian
@tavdy79: To BE Christian means homosexuality is wrong, sinful and deviant. Has your particular “flavor” of Christianity actually deleted those biblical references? If not, you’re just as bad as the rest of them. This “welcoming” gays and lesbians is just a marketing ploy and it DOES NOT represent PROGRESS.
If you want to make a difference as a “Christian” formally declare that the stuff in the bible about homosexuals is a LIE. That would be progress. Allowing some gays to wear robes and chant mumbo-jumbo on Sundays isn’t enough.
Homosexuality is Not Wrong – Religion is. (Even the “we-are-not-like-the-crazy-christians” Christians. It all the same until you actually change your beliefs.)
Eve
@Adam: Oh, Hi.
Brian
@tavdy79: By the way “anti-Black Hate” was sanctioned and promoted by your Bible and your Christianity. Christians never even apologized or rejected those biblical references.
So, please don’t suggest the “good” Christians are going to defeat the “bad” Christians. You’re all the same – delusional.
Raymond
Pastor Ryan looks like he’s missing a chromosone
tavdy79
The guy’s obviously a mongoloid tool and ought to be shot
— Mike K
That kind of statement isn’t just insulting to Pr. Mills – it’s insulting to east-Asians and to people with disabilities, as if we’re some how less human than everyone else. Personally, I see no difference between that kind of attitude and the homo- and transphobia that we’re fighting against.
If you can’t deal with this any way other than to hurl crude insults, why bother? All you’re doing is drawing attention to your own inadequacies.
If you want to make a difference as a “Christian” formally declare that the stuff in the bible about homosexuals is a LIE. That would be progress.
— Brian
I’m not going to declare those passages to be lies, simply because, like millions of Christians, I believe they’ve been intentionally misinterpreted to fit the prejudices of homophobes. Some of the passages most frequently quoted – such as the story of Sodom and Gomorrah – don’t even deal with gay sex! The “sin” in the Sodom story was the refusal of hospitality. Other passages are ambiguous (mostly those in the New Testament) while the two main ones of Leviticus both deal with ritual cleanliness – hence the use of the religious term “abomination”. The two passages actually refer to a Canaanite fertility ritual that involved the use of male temple-prostitutes, rather than to consensual gay sex. However even if the passages did refer to consensual gay sex, the ritual uncleanliness laws (the abominations) were eliminated in the book of Acts:
[Peter] saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
— Acts 10 Vs. 11-15 (NIV)
By the way “anti-Black Hate” was sanctioned and promoted by your Bible and your Christianity. Christians never even apologized or rejected those biblical references.
— Brian
I said I was a Quaker; I never said I was a Christian. It’s quite common for British Quakers to be pagan, atheist, or of some other faith background other than Christianity. My background is Christian, and many of my beliefs are rooted in it, but I don’t identify as one. Many of the teachings of Mohammed were rooted in the Bible, yet I doubt anyone would call the 9/11 hijackers “Christians” – despite the philosophical similarities of Al Quaeda and certain extremist Christian groups like the KKK or Watchmen on the Walls.
From memory, the main Biblical passage used to justify the enslavement of Blacks specifically is from Genesis – the section detailing the curse on Ham and his descendants. However there are two problems with this passage for me. Firstly, like many Christians I consider the entire story of Noah’s ark to be allegorical rather than historical, so the story of the curse is a parable rather than fact. Secondly, Biblical curses never last more than seven generations – so even if it were real the curse of Ham would have died out thousands of years ago. The Curse was merely an excuse, one of innumerable examples of situations where the Bible has been used to justify wrongdoing.
The Bible itself is not bad or evil, as some would portray it as being. What we as individuals choose to do with it can be good or bad, just as we can choose to use a knife to prepare food (good) or kill someone (bad). Ultimately what the text is used for is our choice – so the guilt lays upon us, not on the text.
If someone slaps you around the face, you do not place the blame on the hand that hit you; the fault rests with the mind that commanded the hand to hit you. It is the same with scripture: if someone uses a religious book (the Bible, Koran, Upanishads, whatever) to justify causing you harm, you should not blame the text but the person who is using it.
Andrew
The thing that bothers me most about “Christianity” is that we are to love our neighbor. Yet, our actions do not follow our words. It is just such a simple concept, yet so hard to do. The words that Ryan spoke/wrote, do not speak of loving our neighbor, rather loving our self. Every comment that is posted focuses on selfish reasons. The gay community is hurting for a Christian home and hurting for religion. What the ELCA voted on shows love and acceptance of God’s children. If people do not agree with it, then they need to love the sinner and hate the sin. I am sure Ryan is a sinner, just as I am. I can admit that I am and work daily to improve my life. Ryan needs to get off his throne and give it up to God. Ryan’s words were condemning of gay people and hurtful. In my eyes, what he said is simply not Christian, rather just judging “gay” people. Last time I checked there is only one that can pass judgment on others. Just a hint…it is not you, I or Ryan. And one last thought all sins are equal, if you are so good to pass judgement on gay people I suggest you reflect on yourself. Are you worthy to be a Pastor or deciple of God’s word, are you even worthy to enter into a Church? Because of the “Grace of God” eventhough we are not worthy, we are able to enter the house of God with other sinners and repent our sins and faults. Then walk out onto the street and preach the gospel of God to ALL people.
Peace in Christ
Andrew
PS anyone have a link to the video clip of him during the debate? I would love to see/hear it.
rudy
@tavdy79: You and the Quakers have no apologies to make in regard to slavery. Quakers were among the first abolitionists and were persecuted themselves for speaking up against it.
As to your metaphor of the Bible as a knife, I would suggest the U.S. Constitution is a better metaphor here.
While our thirteenth amendment abolishes slavery, the injustice and racism of the original wording which counts slaves as 3/5 of a person remains forever.
Most of us today (except for Anton Scalia and Clarence Thomas)view the Constitution for what it means NOW, reinterpreted in the light of amendments and enlightened by 21st century knowledge.
Those who treat the Bible (or the Koran) in the same way are often our allies.
Those like Ryan Mills who call themselves “traditionalists” and perpetuate bigotry and injustice are not.
By Brian’s logic, we atheists, agnostics, and liberal Christians who believe in our Constitution would also be bigots for failing to pass his litmus test of removing the offending text.
His thinking could be more nuanced here.
Mike K
That kind of statement isn’t just insulting to Pr. Mills – it’s insulting to east-Asians and to people with disabilities, as if we’re some how less human than everyone else. Personally, I see no difference between that kind of attitude and the homo- and transphobia that we’re fighting against.
If you can’t deal with this any way other than to hurl crude insults, why bother? All you’re doing is drawing attention to your own inadequacies.
Guess what pal? No one gives a crap about your silly bible. Why do you idiots always quote the bible to people. I hurl crude insult because that’ve been hurled at me. People like you make make me sick.
Mike K
The gay community is hurting for a Christian home and hurting for religion. So gays just need to be Christian huh? HUH? Christianity has cause more harm to more people in history that any other force or group. Your nuts pal.
Andrew
@Mike K: Mike sounds like you need to look at life from a more positive point.
Mike K
Andrew-We’ve let these people roll over us our entire lives. I just think it’s time to start kicking a little ass. What could be more positive than that? No God and no one else is going to stand up for you in this life. If you want change you have to make yourself. Sorry Andrew prayer just doesn’t cut it in politics. Why do you think that the republican party, who basicly has no power now is still setting the agenda? It not because they play nice.
tavdy79
@Mike K: What’s wrong with that is that many of the LGBT communities most important allies are people of faith. Acting like a an asshole only alienates them.
Andrew (the original Andrew)
OK, QTY: time to remove this thread and the photo of this guy — tired of looking at him. His image is almost as annoying as that of Maggie Gallagher.
BTW, I am not the “Andrew” of post #26. I’ve spent nearly 30 years trying to figure out religion and spirituality — I certainly don’t buy the “we are all sinners” and “I am not worthy” b.s. The constant drumbeat of “I am not worthy” has f’d up a lot of people over the centuries. Language is generative — you create (or at least influence) your existence through language, good or bad.
Cam
@EM: You said “”I’m hesitant to leave a comment as it might invite unpleasant email. But as a close friend of Ryan, I am shocked at how he is being treated. Whatever happened to tolerance and inclusion? Ryan is not a hater, a proponent of hate speech or anything of the sort. I have hardly met a kinder soul. He is, as many others did at the assembly, defending the historic faith.”””
______________________-
EM, do NOT try that old trick on us. Saying that we are being intolerant because we do not tolerate hate and bigotry is ridiculous. You claim that Ryan is just following his historic faith…well funny, because the church originally supported slavery, I don’t see any of the pastes getting up there and “Defending their historic faith” The simple truth is that Ryan hates gays, gays are different, and he hates them, he will use his “Historic faith” to try to pretend that he isn’t a bigot. But what shows that he is a hypocrite and a bigot is that he isn’t also asking that all adulterers and thieves be kicked out of the church. Aren’t the Ten Commandments part of his “Historic Faith”? They specifically prohibit thievery and adultery, the part in the Bible that talks about gays are merely in Paul’s letters to the Romans, however, the Ten Commandments were, according to his “Historic Faith” handed down by God..and yet, funny that he seems to have no problem with his “Historic Faith” allowing in adulterers and thieves. Geee, guess what….he IS a hateful bigot after all.
Lura
JT- Love and challenge are not mutually exclusive. We can love *and* challenge those who, with whatever motives, work to perpetrate discrimination and oppression.
WestCanuck- There are those who have done exactly that in all civil rights movements. In fact, MLK based his non-violent action in an attempt to win over the opponent, lovingly showing them where they are wrong.
We queers have a right to be angry at the church! And y’all are free to find redeeming qualities in christianity, or not. What we do not have a right to do is to perpetrate hate- and I’m sorry, many of these comments do. Ridiculing the physical appearance of an opponent is childish and hateful, and insulting someone by calling them “mongoloid” is offensive. Let’s live into the equal world we want for ourselves.
WestCanuck
Lura: I agree. That’s why I wrote that “reconciliation without justice is not true reconciliation, it is a mockery of it.”
“MLK based his non-violent action in an attempt to win over the opponent, lovingly showing them where they are wrong.”
Sure: speak truth to power. Lovingly. But speak it, don’t indulge it. “Lovingly showing them where they are wrong” is good, as is “Show them where they are wrong. Lovingly.”
Jaroslaw
What is a magical homo – I read Erik Samuelson’s post and this one and still don’t have a clue. Thanks.
TP
Question: Why does Queerty troll their own blog? It’s like an ethical hall of mirrors with some strange carnival barker going on and on with the religion crap. Xtians are not interested in us in any way that isn’t deeply sick and puerile, let’s just move on to being really campy again or something. They’ll come after us when they decide to, and reacting achieves nothing at all, K?