Queerty is better as a member
I’ll bet Warren’s son was gay. What gay person could continue to live with a father like that? None, that’s who. Remember this, Rick Warren. I know you will try to hush up the truth, but I’d bet money that Matthew was gay and you drove him to his grave with your twisted views.
You would think that Rick Warren, this cretin of “god” would know that you reap what you sow. Karma’s a bitch that bites. RIP Matthew.
What disturbs me most is Pastor Warren’s stating that he knew he was going to heaven. If you’re a Christian, which I once was, you’re taught that is a straight ticket to hell, an unforgivable sin. Is he using mental illness as an excuse to exempt his child from hellfire?
As for Matthew, severe depression is a horrible thing. I’ve wondered for years why my own mother hasn’t ended her own suffering the same way. It’s an excruciating thing to see someone you love live that life. Rest in peace, Matthew.
@Ron Jackson: Come again? Rick Warren is a bad person, so the one who pays with a lifetime of mental health issues and ultimately with his life is his son?
@Wm: “If you’re a Christian, which I once was, you’re taught that is a straight ticket to hell, an unforgivable sin.”
That’s just not true these days.
That’s just not true these days.”
So does that mean all of those people who committed suicide prior to the rules changing got transferred from burning in hell to heaven?
@jmps: Yup. Plus, they all got a $20 gift certificate for the inconvenience.
@jmps: Christians change the rules all the time to suit their needs.
Please do not make yourselves sound as hateful and prejudicial as the young Man’s Father Pastor Rick Warren. I am Catholic and do not care for my own Churches stance towards Gay Marriage and really detest evangelical Christians but do not do something as disgusting as trying to co-opt this young mans death to push an Agenda. The mother discussed her sons bipolar disorder over a year ago. Depression and Bipolar disorder are horrible burdens for that young man, who even though he did not have to deal with the hate and condemnation many of you have for being born gay, he obviously suffered tremendously to the point he felt it was better too die than to live. Do not lower yourself to Pastor Warren’s level, I see being Christian as being Christ like and condemning people is not what Christ taught us. He taught us the good news, that love is most important and new covenant was made between God and Man which was different than the eye for an eye of the old testament. Unfortunately many Christians to back up their human imperfections and prejudices reach back to the old testament to justify their un-Christian behavior.
Oh and as far as going straight to hell, the Catholic Church, I know has opened its mind and has come to understand that depression and suicide are an illness and not the young mans fault, not guilty due to insanity. As far as Karma being a bitch statement, shame on you. To some how think that any parent deserves to bury for any reason or any point of view is disgusting. I watched my parents suffer through burying my brother at 18 and then bury a grandchild years later as my sister suffer through burying my nephew at 19 both due to car accidents. Is there some how something they did in their life to deserve that. Pathetic. You would think as a group that suffered persecution you would be better than that and more empathetic and what a horrible tragedy if the sons mental illness was made worse by
intolerance of his parents or by anyone because of his sexual orientation.
Regardless of how horrible Rick Warren is, no parent should burry their own child!
My heart goes out to the Warren family, and hope this may change their outlook on life for the btter
Bravo Elie Bravo, it is the second time I saw it suggest that the son killed himself because he was gay and couldn’t live with his parents disapproval, so I tried to find a credible source, so I could discuss what a horrific tragedy, but now that I have it seems that it is wishful thinking that this is the case because it would serve that Bigot Rick Warren right. My God isn’t that what gays and I as an empathetic heterosexual want to see never happen? Should be God I hope that poor young man was not driven to suicide by his parents intolerance and his inability to live life the way he was born to. Well enough, I do not know what it is like to walk in your shoes, I am relieved that I was born straight for no other reason than I do not think I would have had the courage and the strength to endure what children and young men dealt with when I was growing up in the 70s and 80s. I was even guilty of making fun of effeminate class mates and feel horrible about it and I am glad that I have outgrown and educated myself against those prejudices I had as a youth.
So much for the power of prayer. Would have thought given this guys insinuations that he is so close to god that he would have been able to pray the mental illness out of his son.
No one should lose a child or blame mental illness for it…but seriously, Living in that household must have been beyond intense..
Rick Warren is the “mental illness’ in that family….
@Robert: Robert, you reap what you sow. Frankly, the fact that you still associate yourself with the rabidly homophobic, child abusing religious cult that is the Catholic Church means that you lose all credibility, and rightfully so, to be able to tell anyone anything about right and wrong.
First, my sincere condolences to Warren family. No parents should have to bury one of their children. But something doesn’t make sense. How quickly they indicated their beloved son suffered from depression and “mental illness” which led him to suicide. I can’t help but wonder that Mr. Warren is covering up something.
I am an intuitive and live only a few miles from this church in Orange County California. I drove by it last weekend & was instantly overwhelmed with sadness. I assumed it was due to Warren being a narrow minded bigot that hates & fears the gay community. But when I heard about the death of his son, I instantly knew that the whole story wasn’t being told. More than likely his son was strugglingly with his sexuality but couldn’t deal with it due to his father.
Coming out or just coming to grips about your own sexuality is difficult for any of us, but imagine what Matthew was going through being part of this dysfunctional hateful family. It could have been prevented if his father wasn’t such a horrible person. His father will remain on this earth for a long time to think about his views against gay marriage and the gay community. This is his life lesson to learn.
God bless Mathew and may he rest in peace.
Yes it does sound fishy…
Wow Robert, if only you worried about gay rights as much as you are worrying about the feelings of this bigot who originally supported the bill in Uganda that would have legalized killing gays.
How about I save my sympathy for the families of all the people that his intolerance and bigotry have harmed? Would that be ok with you?
@Shannon1981: Shannon as far as you reap what you sow, I hope you that you do not get the same ignorance and prejudice directed at you as you at me. To condemn all Catholics for the behavior of a few criminals. To just write me off because I am Catholic and say my opinion is not valid or lacks credibility is disheartening, It is an organization made up of humans. And should we condemn all gays because there are pedophiles who prefer children of the same sex? As far as child molesting the percentage of priests that are pedophiles is vastly lower percentage wise than the general population. I am not going to abandon my faith just because I do not agree with certain aspects of it, hell I can not get married in the Church because I am divorced. If everyone leaves the church that has progressive attitudes then change will never happen, it will not remain or become more diverse, it will become a homogenized group of narrow minded people much like the Republican party and its evangelical base. So according to YOU MATTHEW DESERVED TO DIE BECAUSE OF HIS FATHERS NARROW WORLD VIEW AND BIGOTED CONDEMNATION OF GAYS. Well one thing I did not do is direct my comments at anyone and judge them as right or wrong and really to not want to resort to personal attacks. But I hope sometime to day, you sit down and think about what you posted. The prejudices of others do not justify boorish behavior on your part. I am not going to judge you as a person but your comment is really pretty pathetic and hateful. You reap what you sow. You sound like the evangelicals who thought aids was deserved disease for promiscuous behavior. Do you not see the hypocrisy in it?
You people are idiots. The man had a history of mental health issues. That’s why he killed himself. Seriously: Idiots.
@Robert: I am kind of with you here. I was raised Pentecostal Christian, and the likelihood of my returning to Christianity gets less and less every day due to what I am hearing while the issue of marriage equality is “debated” in the USA, but we should definitely not condemn ALL Christians or ALL Catholics for the actions of some. As I have posted elsewhere on this site, Catholics in the Pew (Catholics in disagreement with their bishops) were the largest religious demographic here in the state of Washington to vote in favor of Referendum 74 and it likely would not have passed without their contribution. I also agree that its good that Catholics who do not condemn remain within the Catholic fold, because as you said, if they did not, change would not happen. Several hundred years ago, during the time of the Black Death in Europe, SCORES of good and kind Priests, Monks and Nuns and even Bishops died because they were the ones who cared for the victims of the plague. The Clergy and Religious of the Church were literally decimated beyond belief, nothing like this has happened before or since. As a result of their sacrifice, the numbers of the clergy and religious had to be replenished and rather quickly. Sadly, in the case of the priesthood and episcopacy men who weren’t really that qualified were ordained and as a result, bad policies were implemented, greedy men took power and abused their positions in the Church, etc. This may sound absurd, but its absolutely the truth. I guess my point is that if bad people being in the Church can change it for the worse, GOOD people remaining in the Church can change it for the BETTER. So thank you Robert for your support, I am very grateful for it, and please remain within Holy Mother Church and keep advocating for Change.
@Cam: @Cam: Did I defend Rick Warren or anything he has said? I just thought it was pathetic to co-opt a suicide and to vocalize that he probably killed himself because he was a closeted gay who could not handle his parents disapproval. And I think any American..Including Republican Congressman or any Clergy Member who went over to Uganda in support of or contributed money to the passing of laws making homosexuality a capital crime should be charged with crimes against humanity especially if they contributed anything more than a sound bite. I did not even ask anyone to have sympathy for him, I just have seen several posts on the social networks and it seems like wishful thinking on the posters part that his killed himself because he was born gay and his father drove him to it and truthfully is as disgusting as some of the comments that people hate warren for saying. I did not come here to argue, if some people in the gay community want to gloat and receive some satisfaction that a young man at 27 killed himself and are hoping it is because he was gay because having a gay son would serve that bigot Rick Warren right go for it. Maybe some day when they develop a conscience they will see what is wrong with that thinking. It is really easy to lack manners when you are given the gift of computer courage and anonymity. REALLY IF SOMEONE, SAY ONE OF RICK WARREN’S EVANGELICAL FLOCK, WANTED TO MAKE GAYS LOOK LIKE THEY WERE IMMORAL SPITEFUL AND WHATEVER ELSE THEY WANT PEOPLE TO FALSELY BELIEVE, WHAT THEY SHOULD REALLY DO IS SPEND THE WEEK COMING UP TO THAT YOUNG MAN’S FUNERAL, AND POST HATE FILLED STATEMENTS DIRECTED AT WARREN SAYING THAT FAMILY GOT WHAT IT DESERVED. THEN THEY CAN REALLY FEEL JUSTIFIED IN THEIR HATE AND INTOLERANCE. But they do not even have to do it, some of you are doing it for them. Have a great day.
@DarkZephyr: Thank you, It is nice to meet a truly well spoken and kind spoken person. The easy way would be for me to just tell the Catholic Church to go scratch and join the Anglican aka Episcopal Church.
Robert, so being a man of reason and of faith can you answer my question? I was born into a Catholic family and was raised Catholic but I turned away from it for all the reasons stated above and for the fact that I have come to the realization that I am an atheist. But, I really want to know what Catholics believe when the rules change. I was told in Catechism back in the early 60s that if someone committed suicide they went to hell. Now I am being told they don’t. I really want to know did all of those Catholics who committed suicide back in the day really go to hell? If they did when the rule changed did they get transferred to heaven? And, if Catholics, like you, don’t believe in all of the rules of the church and therefore don’t follow them, do you believe you will go to hell? I really have trouble with this idea that some Catholics love being a Catholic but hate the rules and don’t follow them. Also, if the Pope is supposed to have a hot line to God and yet Popes change the rules every now and then does this mean that God changes the rules? Religions can get very complicated. If I did believe in God I could see doing so in a very private and personal manner instead of following a very convoluted and ever-changing set of beliefs of a religion.
27? I thought he was 47!…….Maybe drugs and alcohol had more to do with this than “mental illness” like Warren is saying….
@Robert: A pedophile is a pedophile. Every time you tithe the catholic church, or defend or support it, you support its criminal activity. A few? Are you serious? Every other week there is a new scandal. And you all scream and holler about how you aren’t all like that, how you don’t support the church. HA! Yes you do. You support it with your words and with your money.
Further, you’re straight. I went to conversion therapy and have been subjected to all manner of prejudice from religious bigots of many stripes. I am done trying to make excuses. The Christian religion, especially Pentacostals, Southern Baptists, Catholics, and Mormons, are the dire enemies of this community, and there is nothing you can say to make me believe otherwise, especially since, as a straight person, you have not nor will you ever suffer at their hands as we have.
I didn’t come here to argue, I just was searching for facts and thought that maybe here I would see unbiased maybe even empathetic confirmation that young man was gay but unfortunately most likely shared his father’s narrow minded views. Have a great day. I am a union member, an ironworker, and all it takes is one union member to steal or not give 8 hours work for 8 hours pay for people to write off all union workers as lazy and condemn the labor movement as corrupt, when it is need now more than ever. I am not trying to push a Union agenda, I am just trying to use a “parable” to maybe think about what you say so people don’t just cast you aside. Have a great day, and thanks for the discussion, enjoy the rest of your Sunday. I am secure in my beliefs, but usually fanatics like Rick Warren are those who are in a constant crisis of faith and harboring doubt and why they have the driving desire to validate their beliefs by convincing others they are right.
One last thing though, I can see why some of you hate the man, and I can only guess at the years of abuse and intolerance that you have endured over your lives because as a straight male I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE GAY. So I can see where the anger may come from.
@Robert: You didn’t come here to argue? You’re a straight person who invaded gay safe space trying to tell us to feel sorry for a dangerous bigot who wishes all of us nothing but ill. Sorry, but, as Cam said, I’ll reserve my sympathies for the people he and those like him have harmed. As an atheist, I am sure Matthew is better to exist no more, with a family like that anyway. Not saying he deserved it, as I know nothing about him. I know plenty about his father Rick, though, and I don’t feel anything for him.
We’ll probably never know if he was gay or if it played a role in is suicide, but it’s not correct to simply state that existence of mental illness makes the question irrelevant. Depression can be triggered by life events. The stress of family rejection or simply hiding it from family can trigger depression. It’s pure speculation to say it applies in this case, but it’s not an impossibility.
Robert, you didn’t answer my questions! Don’t go!
@jmps: He won’t answer them because he can’t. Don’t waste your time- all religions are a crock and there is no reason to believe any of it. They never answer reasonable, rational questions because they can’t. Instead, they run away, as they can do so conveniently, especially on the interwebs.
Robert said, “I am just trying to use a “parable” to maybe think about what you say so people don’t just cast you aside. ”
so do you think Robert is Jesus?
@jmps: I think he is a religious person who wants us all to soften our stances against religious bigots.
@Shannon1981: Shannon, your post [No. 34] is the best post I have ever seen on this site. Succinct and absolutely accurate.
@2eo: Thank you so much! :)
@jmps: I am sorry I didn’t see your comments. I wasn’t ignoring you or running away. The there are very few things that can not change in the Catholic Church, many things have changed over the centuries as science and our evolution has progressed. You should remember from your religion classes that there are only a few things that cannot change and those are pretty much spelled out in the Nicene Creed. Where Catholics say WE BELIEVE…..THINGS SUCH AS SUICIDE AND OTHER INSTANCES WERE OPINIONS OF THE TIME AND NEVER DECLARED INFALLIBLE. So as an understanding of depression as a mental illness and a symptom can be suicide, the churches opinion changed, it was never in the Dogma that people who killed themselves were condemned. And hopefully when God makes enough Gay people they will come to realize that Homosexuality is not a choice or a sin. Like I said I do not have a burning desire to convert anyone to my beliefs and can understand why you left a church that failed you. But just for information sake here are Instances of infallible declarations
The Catholic Church does not teach that the pope is infallible in everything he says; official invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare.
Catholic theologians agree that both Pope Pius IX’s 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary and Pope Pius XII’s 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary are instances of papal infallibility, a fact which has been confirmed by the Church’s magisterium. However, theologians disagree about what other documents qualify.
Regarding historical papal documents, Catholic theologian and church historian Klaus Schatz made a thorough study, published in 1985, that identified the following list of ex cathedra documents (see Creative Fidelity: Weighing and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium, by Francis A. Sullivan, chapter 6):
“Tome to Flavian”, Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;
Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.
The Holy See has given no complete list of papal statements considered to be infallible. A 1998 commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published on L’Osservatore Romano in July 1998 listed a number of instances of infallible pronouncements by popes and by ecumenical councils, but explicitly stated (at no. 11) that this was not meant to be a complete list.
One of the documents mentioned is Pope John Paul II’s apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis on reserving priestly ordination to men alone, which the Congregation earlier stated to be infallible, although not taught ex cathedra (i.e., although not a teaching of the extraordinary magisterium), clarifying that the content of this letter has been taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium. This was confirmed in a commentary by the same Congregation and in commentaries by Cardinals Joseph Ratzinger and Tarcisio Bertone.
As well as popes, ecumenical councils have made pronouncements that the Church considers infallible
@Shannon1981: I did
@2eo: It is easy to jump and make an ignorant statement like he did after I tell every to have a nice day, AND BY SOME OF THE COMMENTS I GUESS THIS IS GAY TERRITORY SO WHY SHOULD MY OPINION COUNT BECAUSE I WAS BORN DIFFERENT.
@Robert: born different? You’re a straight male. You are the walking epitome of privilege in this society. You come here telling us what to think and how to behave when you have absolutely no idea what it is like to walk in our shoes. Don’t try to say you do, because you admitted that you do not. How dare you opine on and judge people you so clearly know nothing about the plight of?
You came here to troll us, methinks. Haven’t you ever heard of safe space for oppressed minorities? You are an interloper, trying to impose your privileged views upon us on own space. Despicable.
@jmps: There was no “rule change” because there had never been a ruling in the ultimate destination of those who commit suicide. In the case of something like this where there is no Dogma or absolute doctrine, you tend to get interpretations, so whoever told you in Catechism class that suicides for sure go to hell because its an unforgivable sin was giving you their opinion based in what they read in the Baltimore Catechism which was not the official Catechism of the entire Church (and was pretty harsh). The TRUE and official Catechism of the Catholic Church however, has this to say about suicide (please take special note of the final sentence):
CCC 2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
**Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.**
So it is not at all certain according to Catholic teaching, that one who has committed suicide is burning in Hell. There can be mitigating factors that lessen the culpability of the one committing the act.
So I guess in answer to your request for an answer “But, I really want to know what Catholics believe when the rules change.”
Depends. The only “rules” that change are disciplinary rules (such as not eating meat on Friday). The sad practice of not burying suicides in consecrated ground was a disciplinary rule that has changed. Since disciplinary rules have nothing to do with faith or morals, the only thing Catholics do is obey them. They have nothing to do with who is in Heaven or Hell.
When it comes to doctrine that is not at the level of dogma, doctrine that has not been defined formally by an ecumenical council or a pronouncement by the Pope “Ex Cathedra” (“From the Chair of Peter”) or some other formal act of the Magisterium, then this can develop over time or even be rejected because it is not considered formal teaching and instead is seen as a pious “hypothesis” and until such a time that it is dognmatized, Catholics are free to accept or reject it. Such as the doctrine of “Limbo” or Limbo of Infants and other unbaptized holy innocents (limbus infantium). This is not a dogma of the Church, so some Catholics believe in it, some do not, because there are competing pious hypothesis called “Baptism of Blood” and “Baptism of Fire”.
When it comes to Dogma itself, this never changes. It is codified as ultimate, undeniable law. This would include teachings like the Divinity of Christ, the Trinity, the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary in the womb of her mother St. Anne, the Miraculous Conception of Jesus in the womb of His mother and his subsequent Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, etc.
So, why do I know all of this if I am an agnostic ex-Pentecostal Protestant (while my former co-religionists tend to view Catholicism as the Whore of Babylon)? Because I once really seriously considered becoming a Catholic when I was in my early 20s and studied it fairly extensively, and my maternal grandmother was an AMAZING woman and a devout Catholic who did not have a judgmental bone in her entire body. Today my mother is a Roman Catholic Revert(she returned to Catholicism from Pentecostalism in my 29th year) and one of the fiercest defenders of LGBT people and their rights that you would ever want to meet. Incidentally, my father is an ordained Pentecostal Minister, and he loves me unconditionally and does not work against my rights or the rights of other LGBT people, thankfully. He and I would have serious issues otherwise. He is is no Matt Salmon.
@Shannon1981: our straight allies are welcome here and allowed to express their views.
@Shannon1981: OMG Shannon, put a sock in it.
@DarkZephyr: He isn’t an ally. He came here to try to make us feel sorry for this bigot, to tell us what to think about people who have wished us nothing but ill. No thanks! I don’t need people telling me how to feel about the cause of my suffering.
@DarkZephyr: I have just as much a right to speak here as anyone.
@Shannon1981: I didn’t answer because like I said I just made a comment and do not want to beat a dead evangelical. I applaud you for demonstrating the tolerance and open mindedness you would expect from a community that would like from others and showing empathy to your fellow humans. I really think you maybe a evangelical shill using the same tactic conservatives used in the past couple elections, getting people to claim they are democrats or tea party members dressing is SEIU T-Shirt or Acorn Shirts and causing trouble. So if you are going to speak for me and judge me as a religious person, actually more of an intellectual. I do have an advanced degree. So maybe you are a member of an antigay group sent here to be intolerant; behave obnoxiously; and personally attack anyone with a differing opinion than yourself. You are succeeding in reinforcing certain boorish behaviors attributed to those that are not “saved” go ahead and give pathetic people like the Conflicted Marcus Bachmann, the husband of the bat shit crazy Michelle Bachmann and his pray your gay away clinic because it “worked” for him. Yea it worked lol. Probably as likely as your IQ even approaching mine. I love when people sit behind a computer and have computer courage and attack and make statements they would never have the courage to say to someones face. Is it really that hard to show some manners? We if you were sent here by the right to make gay men seem like spiteful vindictive judgmental self righteous boors then you are succeeding. I have no desire or need to convince you or anything and I am confident in my beliefs they are my beliefs, WHY DO YOU SEEM TO HAVE THE NEED TO CONVINCE OTHERS THAT GOD DOESN’T EXIST? Do I sense a fanatic who is insecure and somewhere in the back of their mind they think their may be a higher purpose to life’s mystery but you have to chase that idea away because that may mean there are some consequences to your behavior, not your sexual behavior just in how you treat others with disdain and wish horrific things on families that are not enlightened or don’t approve of your live style. And you feel it perfectly fine to condemn me for my lifestyle and beliefs. Really gloating over the death of young man because of depression and feeling satisfied that maybe Rick Warren is feeling well deserved pain. Remember reap what you sow? You condemn people who voice support for Uganda but think the death by Suicide of Rick Warrens son by suicide is some how justified because of his attitude towards homosexuals. So it is Okay if Karma passes a death sentence on Rick Warrens son because Rick Warren is anti gay.
@Robert: No, what you sense is someone who is fed up with coming to gay space only to have interlopers like yourself insisting that we have to see things your way, no matter the things we have been through at the hands of your fellow religionists. I do not have to have empathy for those who have wronged me, and I won’t! I absolutely abhor all religion, particularly christianity, and you cannot tell me I have to feel otherwise.
Rick Warren is a vile religious bigot who likely drove his own son to his grave with his views. I stand by that.
Really I could discuss things with you all night and debate the merits of issues but as soon as you had to resort to personal attacks you lost all credibility and pretty much admitted you could not compete on an intellectual level so you best resort to insults. I won’t trade those because I do not want to reinforce and allow you to say see see he is just another hateful straight catholic….when that is far from the truth, but when you push peoples buttons you eventually get the result you desire.
@Shannon1981: Good for you, O Angry One.
@Robert: I wouldn’t waste my time. Not everyone is mad that you are commenting.
@Robert: I never said you were a hateful straight catholic. You’re the one who started calling me hateful and even had the gall to resort to calling me an evangelical, which is absolutely absurd.
I don’t feel anything for Rick Warren but contempt. I feel sorry for his son, because likely his upbringing is why he is in his grave at 27. However, whatever pain that grave brings to his father is richly deserved.
@DarkZephyr: You’re damn right I’m angry! Religious bigots are the reason we have no rights in this country, in case you haven’t noticed. They are the reason so many of our youth are committing suicide, why people with dead spouses are losing everything…why show them any remorse?
Those beliefs are the bane of our existence.
@jmps: now here is the difference between what is infallible and what is fail-able Roman Catholic theology divides the functions of the teaching office into two categories: the infallible sacred magisterium and the fallible ordinary magisterium.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ, “the Word made Flesh” (John 1:14), is the source of divine revelation. The Second Vatican Council states, “For this reason Jesus perfected revelation by fulfilling it through His whole work of making Himself present and manifesting Himself: through His words and deeds, His signs and wonders, but especially through His death and glorious resurrection from the dead and final sending of the Spirit of truth.” (Dei Verbum, 4). The content of Christ’s divine revelation is called the Deposit of Faith, and is contained in both sacred scripture and sacred tradition.
The magisterium (Latin: magister, “teacher”) is the teaching office of the Roman Catholic Church. Roman Catholic theology divides the functions of the teaching office into two categories: the infallible sacred magisterium and the fallible ordinary magisterium. The infallible sacred magisterium includes the extraordinary declarations of the pope speaking ex cathedra and of ecumenical councils (traditionally expressed in conciliar creeds, canons, and decrees), as well as of the ordinary and universal magisterium. Despite its name, the “ordinary and universal magisterium” falls under the infallible sacred magisterium, and in fact is the usual manifestation of the infallibility of the Church, the decrees of popes and councils being “extraordinary”.
@Shannon1981: But this is not Robert’s fault. Why get into an epic battle about his opinion? Why waste your energy? I am angry about the bigots who oppress us as well, but I am not going to battle those who are on our side over an expressed opinion that I might not agree with.
You know what, this is between you two. I shouldn’t have gotten involved.
@Robert: Thanks for explaining what the “Magisterium” is as I didn’t include that in my response to jmps, even though I mentioned the word. I figured my reply was wordy enough as it was and I did not want to get too confusing. I hope I managed that. lol
@DarkZephyr: He supports the Catholic Church, whose views against us he chooses to ignore. He isn’t on our side. He says so with his mouth on the internet, then defends and explains away their deplorable actions. Some ally. Bet he votes for who the Pope tells him to, which hurts us. Get it? He isn’t on our side. Commenting on an internet forum, yet looking the other way when real damage is done by his church means he is anything but on our side.
@DarkZephyr: Thanks Dark Zephyr have good evening it was nice talking to you It is only through dialogue can we can share our point of view and promote tolerance and celebrate life’s diversity.
@Shannon1981: I don’t think you know a thing about him, Shannon. My mother is a Catholic and a fierce defender of LGBT rights and a lioness when it comes to protecting me. A HUGE number of Catholics in Washington voted in favor of Referendum 74, despite what the Archbishop said. MANY of them marched with us for marriage equality. This is NOT “looking the other way”.
@DarkZephyr: So why be a member of the RCC then not do what it says? That makes no sense. Every Catholic I have ever spoken to gives nothing but lip service, and, further, in the voting booth, does what the church says. Your mom sounds like a great lady, but is likely the exception rather than the rule.
It is likely these people are “Catholics in name only” if they are going against the church on such huge issues. It makes no damn sense, and re- enforces my view that all religion is false, even to its followers. Nothing but harm, all of it.
@Shannon1981: WOW TALK ABOUT SPOUTING STEREOTYPES I PROBABLY VOTE FOR WHO THE POPE TELLS ME TO…..I AM DEMOCRAT, I HAVE NOT ALWAYS VOTED FOR THE DEMOCRAT RUNNING BUT I HAVE NEVER VOTED FOR REPUBLICAN, HOW DOES MY CHURCH HURT YOU IN ANYWAY? I attend mass every Sunday, and they never speak out against gays or premarital sex at mass. Unfortunately certain Bishops choose to voice an opinion on a proposed law. I am not on anyone side. I am on my side, like I said, I saw, pathetic people posting on facebook and twitter hoping that this kid was gay and killed himself due to his family not accepting him, I clicked on the article, which came up on google, I am no activist, what you do in your life doesn’t affect me, who and what you do in the privacy of your house has no bearing on my life but as a union member and a labor advocate I do think same sex couples should have the same fringe benefits as straight couples I think every one has a right to health care. I never claimed to be your ally or champion, I just found your comments rather hate filled. Well I won’t waste any more key strokes on you.
Nice meeting you DarkZephyr. Thank you for having manners.
How does your church hurt me in any way? Have you listened to the bile the representatives spout about us? Obviously not, or you would not have even asked that question. You have the blinders on, honey. You can’t see how that church has hurt this community, and countless kids?
You people are despicable. Way to exploit/politicize a tragedy. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Go ahead and attack a godly man like Rick Warren. Your time is coming…keep it up. And then you want the world’s respect when this is how you act/talk ?? There is nothing to respect about your obnoxious childlike rhetoric. whatever respect I had, you just lost. Go ahead and spew your vile responses…this was the first and last time I’ll visit this disgusting site.
@Grow Up: Call a waaaammmmbulance! Go away, troll.
@Shannon1981: Shannon feel free to tee off on this judgmental bigot. Their time is coming. I am sorry if people who claim to be Catholic have hurt you. When I speak of my Church, I speak of my own personal experience with my small ethnically mixed parish is south Rockford. I did not send that person here. And I didn’t say how has my church hurt you….what I said the way you live your life doesn’t threaten me or endanger anything. It is bullies and judgmental wankers like Grow up, now there is an oxy moron. I have been very vocal to the bishop on issues regarding gays and single couples. I can understand why especially the way people have treated you why you just flat out dislike me or cannot give me a chance it is okay. But I hate trolls like that. I love the way when I try to set a good Christian Example some asshole like that comes and reinforces your opinion of Christians.
@Shannon1981: Perhaps because of not holding the same opinion you do about the relative size of issues? The central, defining point of Christianity is, as the name implies, Christ. The “intrinsically disordered” stuff is pretty far away from there.
People who disagree on what, from the inside, are side issues stay, not because they don’t think those matter, but because they believe the main event, so to speak, isimmeasurably more important. And, of course, a church’s (or “The Church’s”) views on side issues can change. Some, whether Catholic or Baptist or whatever else, hold out for that change and work towards it in whatever measure they can; others fine a denomination that’s already there, or at least more easily movable.
@Robert: He’s decent enough so long as there’s no way to make the topic about religion. If it is… well, it’s not just you, and it’s not just straight people; anyone supportive, or even in some cases just insufficiently unsupportive, of all religion whatsoever gets the same thing.
@joeinav: How quickly? Well, after all, it’s suicide. It’s not like there’s anything particularly revelatory about announcing that a young person in apparent good physical health who’s just killed himself suffered from depression. That’s a pretty safe assumption anyway. Being gay *might* have been a contributing factor, but after all, straight people kill themselves sometimes too. For that matter, it’s even possible that he *was* gay but that it had nothing to do with the depression. Although it would be interesting to know, it’s really nobody’s business.
@Robert: I am not sure what a good Christian example is. My experiences with Christians have been of my own family members, from the age of 7, calling me a “queer,” and telling my mother she can’t let me to grow up to be that way, to conversion therapy, to the research I did into the Abrahamic religions for 3 1/2 years that confirmed my belief that no Christian would ever do anything but hate me.
I also know that many of the heads of many of these denominations do nothing but condemn this community, and I cannot call someone who supports them an ally. However, I can say thank you for not following along.
@Shannon1981: Yeah that is why Obama was reelected. Biden is Catholic, really you are speaking out of ignorance. I am not Catholic in name only, I am not cherry picking, I do my best but sometimes I fail. And I am not engaging in sex although I am dating by choice. The pope doesn’t tell us how to vote, I have never seen them influence a vote other than prop 8 and think that was a disgusting waste of church money that could have been used for good. If I am in sin, I do not take communion. Really if a Catholic looks at issues as a whole they should be progressive especially along the lines of the churches teaching on social justice, paying of a living wage and a social safety net. So any Catholic is not going to get everything they want at the voting booth. Same Sex marriage will be inacted across the entire nation instead of a state by state basis through the courts and the approach the obama administration is taking with an amicus brief and approaching it on the basis of equal protection under the law. Then the only thing that can banned it is a constitutional amendment.
@Shannon1981: I don’t understand how lob sided a discussion has gone on for 70 posts. Shannon won the exchange about 8 hours ago.
Let it die, you lost, and your god isn’t going to magically interfere and change anything, he never has before, why would he now.
@Robert: Obama was re elected because Romney scares the hell out of him. Ok, so you are for women’s and gay rights. Am I right? Then, I have to ask, how are you still a Catholic? Their position on social issues is clear. I am honestly confused at this point.
@2eo: Thank you. I just really want to understand how religious people can adhere to their religions, then come here and say they support us, despite what their churches say.
@Robert: As for Joe Biden, between his stance on women and gays, and his potty mouth..well, all I can say is he is likely quietly excommunicated any day now. I love Joe. He is definitely a Catholic in name only. He is cherry picking, and so are you. Unless you do exactly what the church says, you are cherry picking. Anyone who knows anything about religion knows that the beliefs and doctrines are absolute. What you are saying you believe here wholeheartedly goes against the Roman Catholic Church.
@Shannon1981: They can’t, their hypocrisy is frightening, the fact many can’t see their own failures as inquisitive and fundamentally intelligent people is all the more damning of religious followers in general.
They can, and will be judged by their actual actions against the worst their religion offers, very few christians offer anything other than a blase dismissal of them as “not proper” and do nothing about it. The moderates deserve the tar of the brush they allow others to wield.
@2eo: That’s my thing. I cannot forgive those who say “but I am not like that! I support you!” as they tithe and attend churches that go against justice. That is my problem with people who come here, say they are of a bigoted religion, but support us. No thanks.
@Shannon1981: I am of the opinion and my family it is better to be who you were born to be than pretend to be who you are not. My sisters first husband and my nieces father was someone who was pretending to be straight when they were not. He has been a good Dad to my niece and she is a positive outcome out of a bad situation, my sister was devastated and this was in the mid 70s Eli and his Partner have done well with her and with their Grandkids. I am sorry your family did that to you. Really if you are Catholic and not married with churches blessing no one is supposed to be having sex. It is not win or lose thing, I just voiced an opinion, I like to discuss things that is how, I define my world view, I do let anyone define it for me. And I have witnessed miracles, hell I am sort of one myself, I fell 45 ft and survived and am almost 100% But I spent 13 days in a coma induced to let my body heal but pneumonia should have killed me and I think prayer worked. It may be some power we humans have evolved to effect change but I have seen it work and seen higher power help many an addict and a drunk like myself regain power over their lives. But we all have our experiences that we base our beliefs on and I do struggle with them. One thing is true is life is a mystery and we only have one life to live so I would rather spend my time enjoying it than in conflict. Nice talking to you.
@hyhybt: valid criticism of my comment.
@Robert: I think we will never agree. You say miracle, I say medical science and/or coincidence. I just cannot condone association with the likes of the RCC for any reason and claiming to be pro gay. In fact, had I known Biden was going to be Obama’s running mate, I’d have gone for Hillary. Glad I didn’t, because he can obviously separate his church leanings from his office, but I still disagree with his Catholicism.
Sickening to read all the hate spewed by “tolerant” or”progressive” people like Shannon1981 or 2eo. You are in gross violation of proper conduct on this forum and filled with as much irrational hate as the weirdos of God Hates Fags movement.
@MartinDK: Nope. Nice try though, albeit incorrect. It’s absolutely nothing like intolerance, it is pointing out hypocrisy of the religious.
MartinDK, your usual MO is deride everyone not religious and call them haters and bigots. So you’ll be unsurprised that I don’t care what people like you think.
@MartinDK: Didn’t you say you weren’t going to post again, or did your keyword filter show up, I actually expected you to post as Balehead in a religious charged thread.
Has anyone else noticed how they do not say HOW he committed suicide?
@Shannon1981: Almost all Catholics worldwide are “Catholic in name only.” And I read that in parts of Africa the Catholic church does not require priests to be unmarried or celebate.
@MartinDK: You’re a fool. There is nothing sickening about calling it like it is.
@hephaestion: Does it really matter, and what, if any, significance are you either drawing or hinting at behind that missing information?
Somehow I doubt it, Cam.
Christians and supporters of Christianity always seem to have more compassion and sympathy for the perps than the victims. Somehow, in their twisted way of thinking, it makes them believe that they are better people for it.
@schlukitz: Indeed, they seem to think playing the victim card, despite their religion being one of the key aggressors in human history, if not THE most violent cult this past 1200 years.
They seem to be of the opinion this grants them the right to disassociate with everything their religious beliefs are in practice by pretending they are not them, when they are, and they have no right to avoid their legal and moral obligations to their fellow humans.
Believe it or not, in my late teens I was a bit of an apologist for religion, but then I grew up and accepted my moral and intellectual obligations to myself and others.
I wish more people would do the same, imagine how much better life would be without these shackles forcing hate down the throats of the billions of fundamentally good people in the world.
And Robert, once again I repeat, the amount of energy you have put into trolling for Rick Warren is ridiculous. I’ll spend my time worrying about the children damaged because of his message of intolerance.
Wow I guess it this has turned into a lets lump all christians together and bash them, I will have to say you are wrong on that generalization. I am sorry people claiming to Christian have hurt you or offended you. A person who is Christian should act as Christ would and embrace and love all men, even if we do not agree. I think because of the hate perpetrated on you see what you want to see. You remember the instances where they are shown in a negative light and dismiss I the positive. It is disgusting that people thought hiding things was the answer sweeping them under the rug, I had a sister get pregnant at 15 and I was three or four, she went and stayed with another family and came back, it wasnt until I was an adult and my sister found her did I even find out it happened. THANKFULLY WE ARE NOT IN THOSE DAYS. I HAVE TWO FRIENDS THAT WERE MOLESTED BY A PRIEST…ONE OF THOUSAND IN OUR DIOCESE AND YOU ARE RIGHT I DID HEAR SOME PEOPLE CRITICAL OF THEM FOR BRINGING IT UP. But I go who would go through the shame and embarrassment if they had not been abused. The priest is in Jail and those that thought they were protecting the Church by covering things up are retired and have to live with their stupidity. Sunshine is the best sure all. I came here because I was trying to find out all the facts, and thought if he were gay as was hinted upon by friends of friends on face book there would be fact and compassion for the young man. I did go over bunches of news reports, He shot himself in his own home, after spending the evening over at his parents house, his mother has discussed his bi polar syndrome previously, when talking about other family issues, so it is not just brought up. HE HAS BEEN UNDER TREATMENT FOR BIPOLAR FOR YEARS. THE QUESTION I HAVE IS IF HE WAS BEING TREAT FOR MENTAL ILLNESS WAS HE ABLE TO BUY THE GUN HIMSELF AND WHY WOULD A MENTALLY ILL PERSON BE ALLOWED TO BUY A GUN.
NOW I FIND OUT THAT MAY BE WRONG…WHY WOULD THEY NEED AN AUTOPSY.
Aikin said he could not confirm an earlier report by coroner’s officials to City News Service that Warren, 27, died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. He said a cause of death could not be confirmed until after an autopsy is completed Tuesday.
Well I hope I did not offend anyone here, Google did not say this was a gay website, I came for the news but by the name I thought it may be and If the young man was gay, then it wouldn’t be whitewashed away here.
@Robert: You didn’t know a site called QUEERTY was a gay site? Just wow, how could you not? The tagline says: “free of an agenda, except that gay one.”
You said, in your post no. 29, that you did not come here to argue.
Yet, of the 90 posts made on this thread, you made 20 of them…all of which defend your Catholic views and that of the church…a bigoted, hateful, homophobic organization that you chose to be a member of and support with your time, effort and money.
If you did not come here to argue, then what did you come here for? Did you not notice that many here do not support the Christian point of view or even believe in a deity for that matter?
It is a non-arguable fact that the views of the Vatican and the RC Church are diametrically opposed to each other. If you are not aware of that simple fact, then it is easy to understand why you claim not to have known that this was a gay site.
Talk about splinters in one’s eyes. You see just what you choose to see. And your only purpose for coming here was to promote your religious views and Church dogma.
Correction: “It is a non-arguable fact that the views of the Vatican/RC Church and the LGBT community are diametrically opposed to each other.”
You took the words right out of my mouth. The usual, over and over clap-trap about “Oh, but not all Christians, Catholics, et al, are like that”, yet not one shred of evidence of what they are doing, as dues-paying members and supports of bigotry, hatred and hmophobia, to combat the Vatican’s hostile stance against LGBT people and their condemnation of us.
As the old Indian adage goes, “Man speak with forked tongue”.
@schlukitz: That’s the thing- they support and defend the church. Until that is stopped, their arguments are invalid.
@Jack E. Jett: As I understand it, it’s fairly common for a depressed person who’s decided to go through with suicide to seem happy. Think about it from their point of view: with the decision made, there’s no more worrying over it, and perhaps they’re even looking forward to what they see as a relief.
Related to that, one of the side effects for antidepressants is an increased risk of suicide, because they’re no longer TOO depressed to do anything about it.
I stumbled on this site by reading about Rick Warren and once I saw the name then I was curious to see if any one would be hateful. Yep. I was right. Hmmm. talk about stereotyping…angry gay people. Yep. they are on here…
@shannon1981 – good grief. you are just bitter. you need to get help. the amount of hate that came from you was really venomous. what has life done to you??? or rather – in terms you would know – what have you done to your life???
@Robert – the unpardonable sin is NOT suicide. People were taught that because no one ever dug deep into sciptures…if Jesus died to forgive us of our sins…and we accept Him – then we are justified/pardoned in our faith. Some will know what I mean by that – so therefore…if YOU don’t ACCEPT JESUS and the fact that he DIED for your sins…then you reject HIM…THAT is the unpardonable sin. How can GOD pardon you in Heaven when you didn’t accept the WAY he SENT for you to be pardoned?? Not accepting Jesus is the unpardonable sin. All suicide is demonic activity and is pure evil. All suicide.
@ anyone who tries to argue, put me down or rant…about this…just don’t. I am not going to be coming back and I had to register and do all sorts of info giving just to say this much on here. But, I couldn’t leave without saying so. I read all of these posts. Some people are soooo angry. I had a gay hairdresser. He was nice and funny. I like happy gay people. Not hardhearted bitter ones. Grow up everyone. Too much anguish in this world. We are so narcacisstic. Get a real life. I am a christian. I don’t have a problem with gay unions. Let them have a union and an agreement so they can pass on inheritances and all that “marriage” entails, all the benefits. What I do have a problem with…isince I am a christian and I believe the BIBLE…is the sin of “sex” outside of marriage. That is from Romans in the Bible./new testament/Paul was speaking. 1:24 and so on… So, believing the Bible…ANYONE who commits sexual acts outside the confines of marriage…then they commit adultery/fornication. So, to me that is wrong. Anyone.
I have one question though. To all the gays out there…do you ever feel “guilty” or ashamed? or weird with your acts of sex? ever??? After, you engage and you are laying there…in the dark recesses of your mind – do you ever think…this is not normal. This is weird. This is strange…do you ever think that this is how it is meant to be??? The Bible says that God gave the people over to their lusts and desires of the flesh (which means sexual sin) look it up – because they turned from Him… I was just wondering. Please no weird stuff or answers…truly just wondering.
that’s it. – oh and one more thing…I saw this movie…about men in prison after so many years…turning gay. Do you think they were gay always??? You know BORN this way and never acted on it until years later in prison??? or they turned gay because they had to or were forced to? or they just decided oh, well – I will never see another woman again…so I am gonna do this now!!! Very thought provoking~~ That’s all. I hope everyone finds peace in their heart and searches their humanity. I pray that all who truly, truly seek God and not “religion” will come to a knowing of Him. Please don’t be mean to people who lost their child. That is evil. He was once their little baby…and they loved him with all their might. If you have children – you know this in your being~~~
@2eo: intellectual? Oh please. Stop. You are too funny… You are bragging about nonexistent hacking skills giving you “secret” information about other posters. ROFL. I cant think of more pathetic behaviour…
@solarsystem: Surprise, surprise. Another bigoted Christian coming to defend Rick Warren.
@hephaestion: Doesn’t say so in this article, but it was with a gun, per The Huffington Post.
Ms. Solar system, why would I feel guilty because I broke a rule of YOUR religion. Because the doctrine of YOUR religion says something is “sin” doesn’t make it a universal “sin.” I have no problem if someone is a Christian and lives by the doctrine of Christianity but I have a big problem with Christians who assume we all have to live by the doctrine of their religion. I am so happy that you have lived such a privileged and entitled life, what with your “happy” gay hair dresser and all, but apparently you have no idea what it is like to be fighting for equality and fighting for achieving civil rights. Being told over and over by people like yourself that we are second class citizens tends to make one angry. BTW have you ever actually told your “happy” gay hair dresser to his face that you don’t think he is entitled to the same rights that you are?
@jmps: *slow clap* Bravo!
Actually your posting that you posted after “Accidentally” coming here was the most hateful thing on the site.
Let me turn the question back on you. Do YOU ever feel guilty or ashamed for the acts of bigotry and abuse that you do in the name of your religion?
Does the hypocrisy of focusing so much attention to fight gay rights while completely ignoring Christ’s words speaking out against divorce and adultery every make you feel ashamed?
Christ never mentioned gays, but he CERTAINLY spoke out about divorce and adultery and yet people like you and Rick Warren never spend millions of dollars setting up organizations to lobby Congress to make them illegal?
Just curious how you can live with yourself when you lie so much about being a good Christian.
Christianity has vilified homosexuals for centuries… how any Christian, or anyone else for that matter, could blame some of us for still being a bit resentful, is completely beyond my comprehension. It amazes me how some Christians get so bent out of shape because not every gay person is willing to bend over backwards in order to plant our lips on their sphincters in eternal gratitude when they show us the slightest bit of support. Meanwhile, they continue to support these institutions that are, still to this day, fighting to deny us our equal rights. I say, don’t do me any favors… just get the hell out of my way!
@Dresden: It is not resent, nor is it hate, it is the fear that these people are only an election away from herding us up and executing us AGAIN. The religious are the worst people on the planet because they hate with a smile, and they force their beliefs on everyone no matter the cost.
We as a species have grown past the need for these intellectual handcuffs. The fundamental problem is that the religious are not as smart but they wield most of the power, and reasoning with idiots will always draw you down to their level.
That reads like a rebuttal. Apologies, not intended.
This entire thread gives me a headache.
@Shannon1981: Since you think that Robert is straight and therefore and ‘invader’ on this sight, let me give you a similar perspective from someone (me) who is gay.
This is not a “gay safe place”, this is a site about gay issues. Not every gay person on this site and those who comment here are going to agree with you Shannon.
People are people. In all walks of life you have good people and bad. Gay people are no different. If you don’t already know it, there are plenty gay people who are third degree douche bags and assholes. The gay community is not exempt from this any more than any other sect of society. I know many Christians who are just as supportive of gays and their rights as we are. It is just truly stupid and ignorant to lump or stereotype any group of people. We in the gay community surely do not like to be stereotyped, so why are you doing that to others?
You said that because Robert supports the Catholic Church he supports their criminal activity? Are you serious? Queerty does not shy away from issues where gays have partaken in criminal activities. Does that mean if you support a gay organization that had some criminal activity, that everyone in that organization was at fault and you are therefore equally supportive of their criminal intent? Does that mean everything good that has been done by that organization is now bad? Jeez man. Forgiveness isn’t just a religious thing.
If we truly want the world to accept us as equal and normal; if we want them to not exclude us from dialog and participation on issues; and if we want to stand on the same ground as they do; then we cannot do the same to them. It will just keep the divide wide and unhealthy.
Robert has the right to be here as does anyone. I would hope that more straight people would come here and learn about issues we care about. I would hope these same straight people would get a glimpse into our culture and how we view the world. And yes, I hope they give us their feedback whether I like it or not.
What I will not do is lower myself to name calling, finger pointing, stereotyping, and worst of all hate as we get from so many people.
Shannon, do you want hate against gays to stop? If so, it will never happen as long as you and people like you are spewing hate back.
So how do I agree with Robert? I think that he is right that we should feel sorry for Rick Warren. He just lost his son. No matter what you think of his views, he is still a person. We should feel for anyone who loses someone they love. If anyone on this forum thinks Warren “got what he deserved,” then they are no better than the people who were saying that gay people got what they deserved when AIDS was running rampant throughout our community killing people.
@jheryn: Why didn’t you just post that as Robert, why go through the process of making a new account to post that utter dross?
hmmm. It’s not wrong to speculate that Rick Warren’s son may have been secretly gay… it’s a common cause of suicide in kids that grow up in intolerant families. I’m sure Mr Warren will be re-examining a lot of his parenting history and faith in light of this tragedy. That’s probably a good thing. But it’s also true, straight kids do commit suicide too. No winners here…. unless Mr Warren’s reexamination leads him to modify his rhetoric and prevent future kids from feeling so hopeless.
Robert– you’re correct, there is a valid argument to be made for staying in the Catholic church IF you’re trying to effect change and being vocal about your opposition AND carefully directing your financial support to only certain causes within the church and not financially supporting the over-riding institutional bigotry and prejudice. That’s so tiring though… if you do get tired of it, try your local United Church of Christ congregation… they ordained a black minister in 1870 something, a woman minister in 1920 something, and their first openly gay minister in the 1970s. They’re very cool at the national level although of course there are local exceptions here and there.
solarsystem– there is innate homosexuality and there is situational homosexuality. Situational is where straight men in prison decide to have sex with other men, but they don’t say they’re gay… they just have sex with other men because that’s what they’ve got… like men throughout history have had sex with sheep, melons, their hand, apple pie, etc. they’re not gay just because they’re having sex with men. Being gay is about realizing that you fall in love with people of the same sex. I had sex with women and enjoyed it but never felt any real emotion toward them… then whammo I fell in love with a guy and had to accept that… as much as I tried to deny it or wait to see if I somehow outgrew it, I was gay. Is there shame surrounding gay sex? I think sometimes there is shame surrounding any sex depending on how you are raised, but in my case I know that my same sex relations are based on deepening the intimacy of love… so no, I do not feel shame for them.
As far as homophobic Christians go, I recently have had some insight into this after attending a homophobic Lutheran Missouri Synod church for some time (as an openly gay man). Without boring you with the details of that story, I’ve come to appreciate how much homo liturgy there is in many Christian services where you are constantly talking about putting Jesus’s body in your mouth and drinking his bodily fluids and celebrating this. I do believe that this imagery leads many straight male Christians to really protest at some level that although they’re celebrating eating Jesus’s body and drinking his blood, there’s nothing gay or strange about that!!! And their really against men putting another man’s body on their mouth, except if it’s Jesus. And so on…. Some of the Christian ceremonies are really so barbaric… and Christians try to find a way to gloss over that and somehow ignore it. Don’t get me started on Jesus’s special male disciple… you know “the one he loved” as opposed to all the other male disciples… and how his betrayal was signaled by another man kissing him in a garden….
Anyway, when push comes to shove, I just try to stick to the bible’s Golden Rule and treat others as I would like to be treated.
….oh yeah, and I also also accept that… as much as we want things to be easily categorized as black or white, the reality is that most complicated things like human sexuality have a lot of shades of gray in them… and just because we don’t understand something, and only have an outsider’s understanding of it, we should therefore not try to tell that person who they are or should be (unless they are somehow depriving another of life, liberty, or the pursuit of their own happiness). I have this struggle myself with some transgender issues and gender reassignment surgeries where I wish we could just all accept that some people have indistinct or contrary anatomy to their identity… and that’s OK…. without trying to force their body to match the either/or box…. but you know what?? It’s not my body and I don’t have that issue personally… so I remind myself to shut up and listen and learn and defer to those who are experiencing it first hand and living it.
…oh oh oh yeah…. my point was that like sexuality… human spirituality, religion, and Christianity have a lot of shades of gray as well, and I try to only protest and criticize the ones that are actively harming others… some are indeed deserving of hatred and criticism and some are not… some in fact do very good work and could use some help.
…and another thing, mental illness often runs in families, I would also suspect that Warren’s own religious zealotry may in some way be a reflection of his own struggle with mental illness. I know I found late in life that going to church (the RIGHT church) did play a role in helping me wean myself off anti-depressant medication. Church can be a powerful medicine if used properly.
@jheryn: Robert was not here to learn about issues, and nor was that solar system person. Both were here to defend in gay space the biggest evangelical bigot ever. I find that to be despicable.
As for the rest- there is a difference when people do and defend the active oppression of our rights. Robert oppresses us by defending a church that donates countless time and dollars to oppressing us. There is a difference. If he had a difference of opinoion- fine. I’d steer clear and do nothing. However, that is not the case. He supports a church that is virulently and actively homophobic in a political manner. Nope! Nothing doing. No sympathy here. Rick Warren and those like him can rot in hell, and I relish every ounce of pain he feels over this, for he likely caused it himself with his hateful views.
@Robert: YES idiot! it is an HOMO net site, so get fucked!. “DEAD CHRISTIAN IS A GOOD CHRISTIAN”. AdamHomo
And “DOFEK” proves that gays are sadly just the same as straights… everything bad you can find in the heterosexual majority, you will also find the same in gays…. unfortunately we have the same ignorant hate-filled types as well.
“I have decided to stick to love…Hate is too great a burden to bear.”
? Martin Luther King Jr., A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches
I use to be a BIG TIME fan of Rick Warren…I was in full-time ministry. But God saved me from the bullshit. The last church where I served was gay-affirming, which opened my eyes. To realize all during my life I had been fed lies about God seeing homosexuality as a sin just blew my mind. Even though I’m not gay, I always related well to “recovering” homosexuals, because deep down I always thought something was wrong with me too. Which left me feeling mildly depressed.
Through therapy I figured out church was perpetuating my depression instead of helping me. So I dropped out of leadership and eventually told the pastors I was leaving church all together. I’ll never forget their response: “You have serious emotional issues and should spend two weeks in a clinic so God can heal you.”
Their response…their belief that even after all these years of ministry and self-development work…to be seen as THAT messed up…it made me feel suicidal. I even called a suicide hotline that night because I felt unsafe.
But once I left the church and focused on self-acceptance…self-love…I am no longer depressed. I have incredible peace and have become a far more confident and healthy person.
When you are a sensitive person who is viewed in the eyes of religion as unacceptable for any reason, it absolutely invalidates you as a person. I wonder if Matthew would’ve felt more empowered had he left the Saddleback community altogether and dared to live like as his nature intended. There is so much more love, grace and freedom for some of us outside of the church than within it.
And may you continue to be strong, bold and patient as you stand against the utter bullshit anti-gay people believe. Please keep sharing your stories and sharing your love. Because it is not until people come to love you (or in Warren’s case lose a child) do we “wake up” to the truth of how their ignorance is destroying homosexuals’ lives.
Rick Warren killed my brother too like his own gay son, my brother committed suicide after hearing his sermons FUCK YOU RICK! You are the illness! being gay is not a mental illness! you killed my brother!
Too bad it wasn’t a murder-suicide involving his creep of a father.
Or, if Mathew was really clever, just an unsolvable murder.
@Elie: but the children should look forward to burying their creepy parents. Especially if your dad is (p)rick warren.
@Peaceful Warrior: Interesting that you supported recovering homosexuals. Do you continue to support recovering homosexuals?
@Spike: Most logical response Ive read.
It’s convenient to blame a suicide on depression, but that does not get to the root of a person’s despair. We know from bitter experience that many gay youth simply suffer in silence if their families are fundamentalist Christians.
The greater tragedy is that the Warrens will probably never know whether their son was gay or why he killed himself. “Matthew wasn’t gay,” Rick Warren said in an interview, “but if he was, we would have loved him unconditionally anyway. It wouldn’t have made any difference at all.”
His statement was certainly compassionate, but was meaningless in light of the fact that his son had already taken his own life. What he did not say in that interview is whether Matthew Warren knew that his parents loved him unconditionally. If he was gay, did he know that his sexuality would not make a difference to his fundamentalist father who had often preached against homosexuality? This was, after all, a man who had said in 2008 that “someone unwilling to repent for their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted as a member at Saddleback.” He had told Fortune Magazine that he would counsel gays and lesbians to adopt a “heterosexual lifestyle,” and had said they were “immature” if they couldn’t “reign in” their homosexual impulses.
My guess is that, someday, someone — perhaps a friend or boyfriend — will come forward and confirm that Matthew Warren was gay, and it will shed a little more light on the devastating consequences of homophobic parenting.
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