Norrie, born in Scotland and who only goes by her first name, has neither a “M” or “F” on her public records. The certificate from New South Wales’ Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Australia reads “sex not specified.” Categorized as “male” at birth, she underwent hormone therapy and surgery in her twenties to become a woman, but has since stopped taking hormones, “preferring to live as neither male nor female.” Which leads to one practice matter: Which article of speech — “he” or “she” — to use to refer to Norrie. Neither, zie says. [SMH]
Richard
“Norrie, born in Scotland and who only goes by her first name…”
“Which article of speech — “he” or “she” — to use to refer to Norrie. Neither, zie says.”
fail.
Alexandre
you can fix that mistake by using “their”
marco
@Richard: “zie” was Norrie’s idea, read the link. I think it’s kind of creative.
@Alexandre: “their” refuses to the plural, and cannot be used for the singular. Many other languages don’t have this problem.
j
I’m sorry, but if he was born male, used hormones for awhile and then stopped taking them he is male. I’m completely behind the T in LGBT, but this person has not made a transition and does not intent to. They simply experimented with hormones for awhile and they’re now happy to live as a man. That’s it.
This person isn’t intersexed and isn’t a man who feels like a woman, it’s simply someone who doesn’t believe in gender stereotypes but they’re STILL a man. Why we’re allowing someone to “not specify” their obvious sex on an official document based upon a personal belief is beyond me. Belief is not fact, and if he has absolutely no inclination to become a woman, or even intersexed (although I’ve never heard of a person wanting to become intersexed, which is supposedly what “gender not specified” is reserved for, and those in the middle of a transition) then the state should stop being afraid to step on toes and use common sense.
I definitely call bullshit on this.
Richard
@marco: I’m aware of the term “zie,” and it wasn’t Norrie’s idea. I’m just pointing out that the post specifically states that there is a gender-neutral term with which to refer to Norrie, yet uses a gendered term (“her”) in the article.
@j: You’re confusing sex with gender. Gender is a socially-constructed set of norms that has traditionally been broken down by sex. To live without gender is to reject this prescription. I think Norrie is a marvelous example.
chris
@j: I agree, you can be one or the other or both, but you can’t have no gender.
Martin81
Hmmm. Neither “he” nor “she”? Then I guess the proper term is “it”? Seriously, this is ridiculous! You’re either male or female, or you transition to one or the other, or you’re intersexed. “None of the above” does not apply.
@Richard — go back to grad school.
Richard
@Martin81: Too late, already here. Go back to Pottery Barn. Your break’s almost up.
axos
Hm – I don’t know about this specific case, but I remember the film about drag kings – it also had a segment about people of uncertain sex. They do exist. I remember especially one person, where you could literally see who her/his face sort of fluctuated from man to woman and back. Both beautiful and fascinating to watch. It was quite a charming person, and straight women seeing the movie fell in love with his/her “male part”.
jason
Norrie’s stand appears to be political. His gender is in his chromosomes, and is obviously male. You can’t change this, Norrie.
The Milkman
Oh for fuck’s sake.
eagledancer
A few years ago, a Dutch judge on the World Court came up with an interesting suggestion. He observed that an individual’s “state” identity being tied to gender had only taken officially place with Napoleon, and the little guy did it specifically in order to conscript males into his army.
The judge suggested that if gender was eliminated from one’s official record, so everyone is “equal” and everyone is simply called “citizen” rather than “male” or “female,” then a lot of pesky problems that get discussed on this site suddenly “poof” away.
For example, if one eliminates gender, then two “citizens” have the right to marry. Two “citizens” are able to legally adopt children.
Don’t get distracted by your first impression of Norrie. Step back and wonder about what the legal implications might be if governmental agencies are able to NOT record gender…
missanthrope
“This person isn’t intersexed and isn’t a man who feels like a woman, it’s simply someone who doesn’t believe in gender stereotypes but they’re STILL a man. Why we’re allowing someone to “not specify” their obvious sex on an official document based upon a personal belief is beyond me. Belief is not fact, and if he has absolutely no inclination to become a woman, or even intersexed (although I’ve never heard of a person wanting to become intersexed, which is supposedly what “gender not specified” is reserved for, and those in the middle of a transition) then the state should stop being afraid to step on toes and use common sense.
I definitely call bullshit on this.”
Where’s the bullshit in this? What does it harm for zie to be legally recognized as “gender-not-specified”. I think when it comes to the gender binary, “common sense” is neither common nor sensible.
The only bullshit that I smell is your desire to arbitrate the identities of others.
Jason
“His gender is in his chromosomes, and is obviously male. You can’t change this, Norrie.”
Really, you’ve actually performed a chromosonal test on Norrie? Do tell.
InscrutableTed
@marco: “their” [refers] to the plural, and cannot be used for the singular.
That’s not true. You can use “they” and “their” to refer to a singular person if the identity of the person isn’t specified. e.g. “Someone is at the door, and they’re very impatient.” “Can I bring a friend? / Sure, what’s their name?”
Using “they” or “their” when the identity of the person is specified (e.g. “Norrie doesn’t have a sex listed on their records.”) is non-standard, and would confuse most listeners, but some people advocate its use for intergendered persons.
Jon
Perhaps this is a stupid question, but…does he/she/it/zie/they/their have a penis or a vagina? The article says she underwent surgery, so I would assume that means creating a vagina? I’m not familiar with the trans community, so does having a vagina, but no female hormones make you neither male or female? When a person who is born a woman has the menopause she stops producing hormones, yet she is still considered a woman, right??? I think most of us are not really educated on the subject. Is there a doctor in the blog who can help?
Keldawgs
@ J
Stop worrying so much about what other people do you friggin’ misanthrope.
axos
Actually, there are other chromosome combinations than XX or XY. There’s also people with XY chromosomes whose testosterone never kicked in during their fetus period, and therefore they look like females and have always been treated as females. (The female form is the default form.) So chromosomes don’t tell all, as we already know from trans-gender persons.
Norrie seems to be a t person who started a transition but decided to not complete it. If zie had gone through the whole process, zie would have been officially called a she, regardless of his/her chromosone setup, so why insist this person be forced to be a “he”?
ousslander
add another letter onto lgbt..
jizz
homosexuals are like nazis when it comes to trans people. Fuck off homonormative cissexist dickweeds.
also they can be singular, it’s been used by many writers as a singular.
MongrelKaz
Whatever happened to ‘I am what I am…and if you don’t like it, screw you’? As long as zie isn’t hurting anyone, Norrie is free to be who zie wants and do what zie wants. To be honest, more power to zie I say!
Regardless of any decision anyone makes in how they live their life and it doesn’t hurt anyone else; you don’t have to like it but at least respect it.
j
@Keldawgs: It’s not about being misanthropic, norries holds a personal belief but it doesn’t change her makeup on a scientific animal. If I decided to live my life as a fox it wouldnt’ make me one. Norrie is a man who took hormones but stopped and has decided to remain a man, remind me where the “zie” in all this is? And yes, I understand the difference between sex and gender, but if norrie is biologically male why can’t he say he just doesn’t believe in gender stereotypes without having to try and get the state to erase information about him thats already on the record? Maybe I am a misanthrope. Looking at some of these comments I certainly hate the human race just a little. Bit. More.
j
@j: Ehhh, that was meant to say “scientific level” and not animal, obviously. 😛
axos
@j:
J – but you don’t know anything about Norrie’s chromosome setup, do you? And why worry so much about the inconvenience for public records to erase and change something? Obviously they managed.
Why is this even important to you? If this makes Norrie feel OK, it’s OK with me – zie is not hurting anyone. Are you hurt?
Stop hating! No risk you will turn into a fox by whatever Norrie decides to do. 🙂
Cam
No. 18 · jizz
homosexuals are like nazis when it comes to trans people. Fuck off homonormative cissexist dickweeds.
also they can be singular, it’s been used by many writers as a singular.
__________________-
You need to back off.
1. The whole “So and so is like a nati” comparision is tired and ridiculous. Unless crowds of gay people are out there lining trans people up and shoving them into ovens your comparison breaks down.
2. The gay community (Barring HRC) got lambasted Congress for trying to put through ENDA without Transgendered protections which in the end killed the bill for the entire community. HEavily gay groups such as Equality Maryland spend millions fighting to include trans protections in state and local laws. So fuck you for coming in here and acting like you are some victim of the community because a few people are questioning the use of which pronoun is correct. Go back to your home and write bad poetry about how nobody understands you and stop lashing out.
The Milkman
Cissexual? Zie?
Sigh. I just can’t. Sorry.
Rikard
eventualy, if basic rights are assured and cultural bias is abandoned, the only significant gender information we will need to convey is what our chromosomes say.
missanthrope
“It’s not about being misanthropic, norries holds a personal belief but it doesn’t change her makeup on a scientific animal. If I decided to live my life as a fox it wouldnt’ make me one. Norrie is a man who took hormones but stopped and has decided to remain a man, remind me where the “zie” in all this is?”
Scientists usually used five characteristics to determine gender and sex, I wonder if you can even name them all?
And the fox analogy is idiotic. Humans can be female, male or intersex. They can’t be foxes. Humans=/=foxes. This is the kind of idiotic argument that the “if you allow men to marry men, then they’ll start marrying horses” people put up. Are you serious?
“And yes, I understand the difference between sex and gender, but if norrie is biologically male why can’t he say he just doesn’t believe in gender stereotypes without having to try and get the state to erase information about him thats already on the record”
Because it really sucks when you don’t ID as either gender and you have to deal with it whenever you do something official. So what? What’s your horse in this race, why do you care so much?
Jizz:
“homosexuals are like nazis when it comes to trans people. Fuck off homonormative cissexist dickweeds.”
Jizz, as a trans person, I’m telling you to STFU. Cut the hyperbole.
jizz
as a middle aged/middle class homonormative white gay male, I’m offended you think I’m being hyperbolic.
jizz
@Cam: go back to your heterosexist queer agenda and leave everyone else the fuck out of it you fucking piece of shit.
Medicine Bear
Why is it always that people are so concerned with gender and threatened if people dont fit neatly into one gender or another?
Why care so much about what is in someone else’s pants, hearts or minds? Seriously.
bri
Ok, this is just retarded. HE was BORN male. Then he took hormones after 20 or so years of BEING MALE. Then he stopped taking the freaking hormones, meaning he is STILL MALE. =.= This person and article is such a fail. Not even done anything unique.