Mike Jones had better watch out. It seems the sex worker turned Ted Haggard turncoat’s (pictured) pissed off a few of his street walking peers. Our homies over at Proceed at Your Own Risk just sent us this link detailing how a “well-respected” male escort by the name of Benjamin Nichols (aka Nicholas) has come out against Mike Jones and his rat ways. Apparently he’s displeased with how Jones broke the ancient hooker discretionary code.
I hope that Jones feels great shame in knowing he’s ruined someone else’s life, while confirming the worst stereotypes about male sex workers: that we’re a bunch of drug-dealing whores. The vast majority of us are no such thing, of course, but it will be harder to convince people of that now. So thanks for nothing, Mike. Now, in your quest to achieve secular sainthood, maybe you can adopt a Namibian child, help Al Gore save the planet, or find a cure for HIV.
Sheesh, sounds like someone woke up on the wrong side of the John.
Also, we don’t really understand the logic: Nicholas’s condemning Jones for ruining someone’s life and perpetuating negative stereotypes, but then urges him to save the world and cure HIV? Those sound like pretty good things to us. So, Nicholas has either confused some issues or may be the biggest super-villain in history.
Brandon
I live in CO and this guy has been on all the local talk radio shows arguing his case…despite his outing of Haggard, the election still turned out bad for CO gays & lesbians—the anti-gay marriage amendment was passed and the domestic partnership referendum failed. I think Jones did more to reinforce negative gay stereotypes than gaining sympathy for homo partnerships!
ggreen
Man-whores are a strange lot. I was married to a “sex worker†aka prostitute for about 3 years. Not once during that 3 years did it feel like the sex was not up for barter. People that work in the sex for pay trade be it ho’ or “porn star†or happy ending massager have a great deal of trouble giving affection or physical pleasure for free. There always seems to be strings attached. These folks have a terrible time staying in a relationship. They get so used to being kowtowed to they get irked when they have to earn trust and respect.
Frozen North
It’s called a “market soul.” Once you’ve developed one, there is almost no going back, and there is nothing you won’t sell for the right price.
As for the that pathetic whore who justifies silence to protect a destructive client, well, PAYOR has some very salient points. And the whole “he’d be sleeping with the fishes” comments shows his true moral character.
As for the comments on CO gay interestes, com’on its not like those things were heading to success for gays anyway. Frankly, hurray for Jones for exposing a hypocrite and outing a self-destructive fag before he took us all down with him. The short term might not be pleasant, but in the long term, I suspect a lot of good will come of this.
Jonathon
1. Jones exposed a hypocrite who was done great damage to the lives of gay and lesbian people all across this country. His courageous act to out Haggard has silenced one of the most shrill and vile anti-gay voices among the moonbat right. Jones should be thanked and congratulated, not criticized.
2. By definition, if you are a “sex worker”, you’re a whore. And yes, if you obtain drugs for your john you’re a drug-dealing whore. Believe me, Jones’ actions haven’t done anything to decrease the already-low opinion most people have about prostitutes.
3. Jones isn’t trying to gain “secular sainthood”… where the hell does that comment come from?
4. If you are a gay man (a prostitute or just a regular guy) who is having sex with someone who has made his career out of bashing gay people then YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO OUT THEM!!! The stakes are too high. We have lost too much ground in the past decade and we need to stop homophobes any way that we can. Closet case gay haters need to be outed.
5. Haggard ruined his own life. All that Jones did was expose the fact that Haggard is a hypocrite. I don’t feel the least bit sorry for Haggard and sincerely hope that his professional life with the right wing evangelical movement is over for good. I can feel a small measure of sympathy for Haggard’s wife who probably had no idea that her husband was really a cocksucker. She should definitely get herself checked out and tested for HIV and other STD’s. To be sure, Jones was not Haggard’s only gay experience. I do sincerely feel sorry for Haggard’s children, however. Their father’s deceit, lies and bigotry have crashed in upon their family and their lives will be affected for many years to come. I can only hope that they will place the blame for it where it belongs: solidly with Haggard.
6. I think that it is ludicrous for “Nicholas” to criticize Jones. Shut up and do your own thing. No one needed to know that Nicholas was a hooker. No one really cares, except for perhaps Nicholas. Could it be that HE is the one seeking the limelight and is just riding Jones’ coattails in order to do it?
Hold the phone
Um..wait so male sex workers aren’t a bunch of drug dealing whores?
Hypocrite
Pastor Ted says what he did was wrong and a sin. Therefore he is NOT a hypocrite. In order to be a hypocrite he would have to not only partake in the gay sexual act, denounce gay sex and gay lifestyle to his followers, but also he would have to think it was OK. He does not think it is ok and wants go get healed of this sin nature. That is nothing more than being human like the rest of us. There are probably things most of us do that we know are wrong but we do anyhow because we can’t resist or are weak..but still don’t believe it is right. That does not make us a hypocrite. Go read the definition if you don’t agree.
Peter LeCornu
LOL at Hold the phone’s comment. Jones didn’t deal, he says, therefore he might be a cut above one of the drug dealing whores.
If I had to script a more noble act, or more articulate male prostitute than Jones, might be hard to do. The contrast between the changing story and the half truths and lies of Haggard, a leader of 30 million Christians, and the seeming straight forward sincerity, ring-true honesty of Jones, was breathtaking. Jones was courageous. Did a fantastic job. He was the hooker with not only a heart, but a conscience of gold.
How many adolescent gay males, stuck in evangelical families, will now suffer a little less, trust their instincts a little more, now that Hypocrite Haggard has been outted, by a hooker with a sense of moral conscience and public responsibility. Haggard didn’t fall off a horse and become paralyzed from the waist down, or something truly tragic. People who love Jesus and followed Haggard, aren’t going to go into spiritual crisis over this. If they do, well then their faith was pretty damn weak to begin with and time for them to ask a few questions, especially about the basic nature of homosexuality.
Jonathon
Hypocrite writes: “Pastor Ted says what he did was wrong and a sin. Therefore he is NOT a hypocrite. In order to be a hypocrite he would have to not only partake in the gay sexual act, denounce gay sex and gay lifestyle to his followers, but also he would have to think it was OK.”
Sorry, Hypocite, but you’re grasping at straws. Haggard *IS* a hypocrite because he engaged in private in activities that he described in public as “replusive”. Haggard is at the very least bisexual and yet has built his career on the backs of gays and lesbians by smearing us and working to convince Americans that gays and lesbians don’t deserve the same civil rights that everyone else has.
“He does not think it is ok and wants go get healed of this sin nature. ”
He wants to be “healed”? What does he have to “heal” about his sexual orientation? Do you seriously think that he can “change” and become another “ex-gay”? Get real, man.
“That is nothing more than being human like the rest of us. There are probably things most of us do that we know are wrong but we do anyhow because we can’t resist or are weak..but still don’t believe it is right.”
Perhaps…. but most of us don’t make a living off of demonizing something that we ourselves do also.
“That does not make us a hypocrite. Go read the definition if you don’t agree.”
Well, here’s a quote from Adlai Stevenson that sums it up for me:
“A hypocrite is the kind of politician who would cut down a redwood tree, then mount the stump and make a speech for conservation.” — Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)
Synonyms of “hypocrite” include: deceiver, dissembler (i.e., liar), pretender, etc. Seems consistent with Haggard’s actions to me.
Ken
The Ted Haggard debacle is a welcome development for all gay men. The public revelation that a hate- disseminating “messenger of Christ” dabbles frequently in that which he denounces has emphatically endorsed a new reality. This is a reality that heralds positive socal change for all Americans; the closet is no longer a refuge for famous persons and especially the damaging, self-hating hypocrite like Mr. Haggard. No longer can they count on any sort of “callboy code of descretion” to protect their internally dueling realities of existence. Because that which is mutually exclusive now must revert to the natural laws we all live by, like it or not. No longer will it be tenable to have your callboy and disparage him and his lifestyle too.
Could it really have ended any other way when thought of in these terms? It is ever possible to defy the laws of gravity indefinitely? Eventually, inevitably, a house of cards will spectacularly come crashing earthward. What a pity this less-than-a-man’s wife, children, countless and deliberately mislead “followers in faith” were all innocently escorted by Mr. Haggard into occupying spots directly underneath the crashing debris!
Wolf
So Nick the whore has HIGH morals?
Please. I’ll give him 100 bucks to just shut the fuck up.
Hypocrite
Jonathon, what exactly has Ted Haggard EVER said that was “one of the most shrill and vile anti-gay voices” that you have read or heard? Just curious, cuz I have read several of his books and attended his church for 15 years. I’m sure it’s just me, but wanted to actually see any statement of fact on that. Seems like most bloggers on the negative side of this get all their information 2nd had and are truly ignorant.
Peter LeCornu
To poster who calls himself “Hypocrite.” Since you just looked “hypocrite” in the dictionary, it is good you are finally learning the big words.
Being a hypocrite isn’t nullified by intent/ (Another word for you to look up.) I see how you are confused though. You are looking to closely.
Haggard was a hypocrite because he wasn’t practicing what he preaches. That is the same thing. That is being hypocritical, not practicing what you preach. And he was doing that on a GRAND (means “big”) scale. He preaches that homosexuality, infidelity, using harmful illegal drugs, is a sin. He preaches that as Christians, we are all supposed to be an example to others, of Christ within us. That doesn’t mean a fake example, or it is okay if others don’t see it.
He’s a liar, and continue to lie, saying he didn’t used drugs. He used meth.
As leader of a 14,000 member church, and a 30 million member evangelical organization, Haggard, of course, is held to even higher standards than your average Christian. It is assumed that a little “sin” here and there, might be acceptable in such a person, but not sin like this! You have to practice what you preach, at least a little, and Haggard seems to be almost doing the opposite of everything he preaches.
I understand that in your loopy, nutty evangelical world, all you evangelical Christians are washed in the blood, and can go into shopping malls with machine guns, and slaughter a few dozen people, and that Jesus will forgive you, because you are doing everything that Jesus has told you to do. And you are washed in the blood of Jesus, right? But, that doesn’t wash with the rest of us. Get it?
Peter LeCornu
Hypocrite:
Haggard and Dobson have harmed the lives of milions of gays, through their positions of power, and key hate (the sin of homosexuality) position.
Their spreading of false information about the nature of homosexuality, intent of homosexuals (to recruit children, to spread disease, to promote the downfall of civilization, among others) in their literature and spreading of fear, has been pervasive. It was a big money maker for Focus on the Family, that and anti-abortion, but they made more money on anti-gay. I realize it wasn’t a primary focus of New Life, but it featured publicly in their beliefs. Homos as sinners. Homosexuality as sin, when it is committed. You may have had your head stuck up your Bible for 15 years, and not been aware that he’s doing this, but I’m gay, lived in Colorado Springs, and they were annoying.
Colorado Springs. Such a beautiful place with the mountains and all. To have to hear the ranting and ravings of people, on a regular basis, about my sexual orientation, was disgusting. It was on the local news all the time, and it was a huge relief to get away from hearing all that false garbage.
Peter LeCornu
The ripple effect of the Haggard incident will last a long time. It has shown not only Haggard’s failings, but the true character of Dobson (who blamed homosexuals when the news broke, and denied that it was possible Haggard was seeing a male prostitute or doing meth) and others.
Members of New Life felt an earthquake, but will feel a swell of forgiveness, power and community as they rally to overcome this. For evangelicals, regarding their stance on homosexual behaviors being a sin, aftershocks are going to take place, little cracks are going to start showing up. People are going to question more. They may even become more interested in the real nature of homosexuality, instead of the false nature, as taught by their church. And there are many Christians who are hip to the reality of gays. Their Church may officially call it a sin, but they don’t think of it that way.
The Pope may think homosexuality is a sin, but there are American priests who will speak out to their parishoners, that it isn’t. Not a lot, but some. Why? So many gay priests.
I hope too many people won’t confuse evangelical right wingers with your average Christian.
I admire Jesus a lot but don’t profess to be SAVED, morally superior to anyone else, or in the front of the line for Heaven.
I don’t even believe in heaven or hell. I think both notions are a little demeaning to the concept of an all-loving, all-knowing God.
Hypocrite
Ok…point well made about the Haggard being a hypocrite. I do agree with that. I do know that he considers what he did or does a sin and wants to rid himself of it. Do think it is possible to get cured or healed of being gay? Not sure. Doubt you know for sure. I know you will argue against it. I have heard several who claim they have gone straight..and some who have done straight and back to being gay. So now sure any of us know for sure. I do know that there are many men who probably have desired to be with more than one woman (Threesome), yet have not. They may desire it their whole life. But never engage in it. How is that different than someone not acting out on gay urges? I just think it is more socially acceptable to be gay then it used to be, yet Threesome (not with wife) or infidelity is still fround upon. Again, not saying that someone is not gay be design, but have seen some evidence to oppose this. Problem is most gays will always discard such evidence to justify there being gay.
Also, Ted Haggard did not build New Life on the backs of bashing gays or anyone else. Again, show me proof. Just cuz someone does not agree with your lifestyle does not mean they hate you. I have never hated anyone who is gay. I just don’t agree just as they don’t agree with me on some issues. I have no problem with you being gay, however, the problem I have is having my kids force fed in school that gay is ok.
Appreciate the direct feedback…but why so hostile. Geez…I thought us Christians were the haters!!
Hypocrite
Oh…I am glad Mike Jones came out like he did. Would in now way want to follow a Pastor living such a lie. That is why he is no longer pastor. Very sad to see him go, but don’t think anyone would have it any different. Not sure if that was the best way, but hindsight tells me it was otherwise the truth may not have come out. I was taken back that Ted Haggard lied like he did so anything less than what Mike Jones did might have been covered up.
I obviously have not talked to all of New Life, but the few I have talked to have NO hard feelings toward Mike Jones.
Peter LeCornu
Hypocrite,
You asked if it is possible to be healed or cured from being gay?
No. It is not, because homosexuality is not a disease or illness. The American Pscyhological Association once listed homosexuality as a disease, but they removed it from that list in early 1970s. So, you should always ask the question. Can homosexuals be changed into heterosexuals, so that they no longer have homosexual feelings.
Current research indicates that homosexuality may be caused by lack of a hormone secretion from the mother, at a critical time of brain formation (in an area that controls sexual orientation) in the fetus.
Second-born male children, and 3rd etc., tend to be gay at a higher incidence than first born male children, because mothers tend to have less of this hormone after birth of their first male child. However, some first born males are gay. Just a lower percentage.
Between 2 and 5 percent of the human population is homosexual, with another ten percent being bisexual in a way that they have equal attraction for both sexes.
The ex-gay programs, programs designed to reprogram gays to be straight, and pioneered by evangelicals, have been very unsuccessful. Even the few who claim they have gone straight, are not void of their former gay feelings. They may even have to squeeze their eyes tight, and think of a nice big cock, or hard muscle butt, when banging their devoted wife, in order to get it up. But there are bisexuals you know.
Kinsey theorized that most everyone is a bisexual. It is just a matter of percentage of straight and percentage of gay.
Cassenova, the famous heterosexual lover, who wasn’t just promiscuous but also loved lots of women, had relationships with 4 men in his lifetime. So, he was a bit bi.
Although the Mormon therapist, and other Christian therapists are no longer using barbaric electro-shock to the genitals therapy (while viewing male porno), the psychological damage inflicted by the ex-gay programs in Colorado Springs alone is immeasurable.
I think the two male founders of the ex-gay program for Focus on the Family, ended up leaving the program, because they fell in love with each other.
When I was growing up, and an evangelical Christian, I exerted considerable willpower, to resist the idea I was gay. Then, there was a homosexual phase theory that said it was common for some adolescent boys to go through a homosexual phase, but then move on to maturity. So. Dr. David Reuben, and other “authorities” thought homosexuals were men (or women) who were frozen in childhood, and not fully mature.
Anyway, I was waiting for that phase to pass. I didn’t really have much of a problem with other sins. Didn’t drink. Didn’t smoke. Got stone only a few dozen times in my whole life. However, I fell in love with a man — unknown to him — so when for me, it was not only a strong sex thing, I really wanted to marry him, I had to admit to myself, “Hey, I’m a real homo!”
I find the defining behavior, that younger gays can guage how gay they are is simple. Who do you think of when you jerk off? Men or women.
Part of the bogus therapy to change gay to straight used to be jerking off, as usual, but at the point of orgasm, switching the thoughts to a woman. That’s about as successful as whistling Dixie with a finger up your ass, making a guy straight. It just doesn’t work.
So, the logical alternative for the homosexual in an evangelical Church, who wants to believe the other claptrap (about how everyone else is going to Hell, except their group), well then these gay people have to leave the Church.
Spirituality is a deeply personal and individual thing. If there is a God, well, he created me as gay. That is all there is to it. It is up to me to lead a life of integrity, try to be productive in society, be kind to others, and avoid destructive behavior. For example, I could have tried to get married, because I would have liked a wife and children. But I thought that perhaps at some point, I’d want to fool around with men, like always, and always be thinking about that, and I did not want to hurt my wife, or ever have to separate, while children were young.
In the end though, I like not having children. They are a huge responsibility, both financially and in time.
Hypocrite
Peter – Interesting. I lot of what you write I was not aware of. My take is that what you state is not scientifically proven any more than Darwin’s. With that said I am not saying you are wrong either. I just know there is some room for doubt. I am not gay and have never had an urge to be with a male sexually, so can no speak from first had experience, thus until I have walked in your shoes can not say for sure. I you are correct where many have not successfully stayed straight who have tried. But many have. Now are they truly “cured/healed” or whatever. Don’t know and neither do you for sure. I know you choose to argue it away, but we just don’t know.
I believe in the Bible as my moral compass (by the way, drinking and smoking is not considered a sin…only if to excess..but then still not considered a sin, just warns against it – Cuz we do stupid things when drunk). The bible says that sexual immorality is a sin. So I do my best to avoid it. Do I sin…sure. We all do. Thus most Christians I know are not haters of gays. I’m sure some are, but the majority are not. We just will never agree with that lifestyle as the Bible is unchanging regardless of what Ted Haggard does. In fact Ted always taught to be tolerant of others no matter their orientation, so that fact that some are saying he bashed gays I think is unwarranted. Is he gay cuz he has gay sex? Not sure. Is a female lesbian because she is sexually with another woman. Not sure. Most would not say they are unless they considered themselves partners…so why the double standard with men? We can coexist fine and still never agree on some issues and that is ok. Heck…my wife and I don’t agree on some issues and we are married. Anyhow, appreciate the dialog and hopefully we can continue.
Peter LeCornu
About a straight Christian male resisting the temptation to go through being with more than one woman, being similar to a gay man resisting the temptation to ever have sex with a man. I think that is a little different.
I think it would be almost abnormal for a straight man not to have the “with two women at the same time” fantasy. I don’t think there is anything immoral about two women at once, as long as the women are interested in it, same as any sexual encounter.
Haggard had the fantasy, according to Jones, of wanting to do it with four or five college boys in an orgy. That’s kind of like the two woman fantasy for a straight man. You end up trying it a few times, but it doesn’t work for establishing a long relationship built on trust. (Unless you are a Mormon in one of their poly communities.)
Some straight men, meet a woman they love and lust for, and continue to be horny as hell for that one person for the rest of their life. However, most men lose real sexual interest after the first three years of marriage, and then spend the rest of their marriage thinking about Brittney Spears or Pamela Anderson (always one of those two or both). By then, most women have gotten fat enough (after childbirth) that thinking of them as two during sex, is not a stretch.
A person’s sexuality is as individual as their personality and life’s experience. Gays share a lot of feelings and sexual fantasies in common, for example, but there are things that are individual to me, specifically, also.
Peter LeCornu
Hi Hypocrite,
You have an open mind for an evangelical. So you believe in Adam and Eve, creation of Universe in ’bout a week etc. Quite a leap to get from that to understanding anything about human sexuality or any kind of science, including evolution.
I really know homosexuality is NOT A CHOICE. (The Evangelical party line, that being gay is a CHOICE!) Who in their freaking right mind, would choose to be gay? For goodness sake, in high school, my girlfriend was brilliant and beautiful, and fun to be with, and there were no out or eligible gay men. I could have had her for anything I wanted, sex, love, a life partner, have a family. But I was gay. I had to be true to myself.
The evangelical party line for homosexuality, is love the sinner, hate the sin. So, it isn’t surprising that many evangelicals don’t hate homosexuals. They are programmed to love everyone, like Jesus would, right?
The problem is, when the sin of homosexual desire is in another person, or in you (let’s say you are Haggard), evangelicals tend to hate the person or hate the homosexual desire within themselves, or FEAR it. So, there’s really no difference between hating yourself for being gay, and hating the sin of homosexual desire.
The problem with evangelicals, and the gays they meet in their church is, they aren’t a representative sample. Evangelical gays are a bunch of f’d up cuckoo clocks, convinced that pretending to be straight is virtuous. Think that if they say “I’m really straight now, I’m healed” enough it will come true, even though that isn’t true.
Haggard continues to lie, not detailing his meth use, or real sex activity, because he thinks it will protect the movement, if people think his sins are not quite as extensive and lurid as they are. He thinks maybe if he says he didn’t use the meth, that will be true, just as the gay evangelicals may say, “I’m completely straight now, praise the Lord!” but they really aren’t.
The only gays you can really trust, sadly, are the ones outside the Evangelical church. They are the ones who are being honest. Even Mike Jones the hooker. If you had to be $1000 bucks, whose story at this point would you say is closer to the truth, Haggard or this hooker.
I say this hooker. Really a sad statement on the credibility or honest of an evangelical like Haggard. What if Haggard had hacked to pieces a few dozen hitchhikers and buried them somewhere. He’d say, “I have hurt people” and that would be as close as he could get. In the words of televangelist Jimmy Swaggart, I HAVE SINNED (blubber, blubber, blubber). His problem was hookers, kinky sex, and pocketing lots of money…the usual evangelist’s sin. What a confession. These evangelical people can’t confess worth shit can they.
I think the internet will cause a revolution, for people seeking the truth. It is only on the internet, where you can find information not in the Church library, and also communicate with people who aren’t in your social circle. That’s all for today.
Ron
Hi Peter and Hypocrite.
I think its more like asking a straight male to have NO sex at all…….that is the comparison I draw to the expectation the church has of a gay man not satisfy his sexual desires.
And I think Haggard was a hypocrite for at least 3 years and only after he was caught did he in any way admit the truth. In fact he first denied knowing Jones and I believe Haggard still lies about things in his life he can still keep hidden from exposure. Haggard needs to face reality and stop hurting himself and those who love him.
Hypocrite
Peter – thanks for thinking I have an open mind. It really isn’t though. I mean I admit that somethings are not cut in stone or I am ignorant about them. Also about the ” evangelical party line for homosexuality”….that is what the bible teaches. Sin is sin…one not better or worse than another. There are various repercusions dependant on the nature of the sin, no doubt, but in God’s eyes, sin is sin…
The thing I think is funny is that many are thinking because Ted fell that Christians are suddenly more ok with the gay agenda. At least for myself, my beliefs and walk are not tied to Ted Haggard. I doubt you will see any changes amoung the Christian community, other than perhaps more coming out of the closet. And also I would not expect the overwhelming majority of gays to admit that being gay is a choice and that they can be cured/healed, etc as that would fly in the face of “the Gay Party Line” in that being gay is not a choice. All I am really saying is that I believe what the Bible says and have seen enough evidence to the contrary to make me believe that it might possibly be a choice. Another thing that convinces me that possible gay is a choice is the characteristics that some gay men take on. I think it is phony, thus it makes my belief in their being gay not really a physical makeup thing. I mean, they develop an affeminent walk, their manner of speach changes, they dress differently, etc. By all means not all gays are this way, but enough are to make me wonder what that is all about. I know that is not natural for them….gay or not…they still have NUTs and are male, thus that affeminant things does not fly with me.
Ron,
Just because one has a sexual desire does not mean it should be fulfilled…agreed? Sex with kids, animals, infidelity, etc. I mean where does it end? Who is to say one is ok and another is not? One is the way you are made up and the other is not. Why is having sex with young kids not considered some sort of way you were made…just like being gay? I know that is ludicris..but think about it and you may see my point. They are all a degree of perversion, just being gay is more widely accepted now. I think once we succumb to any immoral act it then becomes easier to do again and more desirous as we now have the experience. I would be willing to bet that the gay desire is much greater after a gay sexual act than before one was ever commited. Not denying the desire is there, but hope you get my point.
And to both of you, we may never agree on this, but hope you at least see my point and were most Christians are coming from. The Bible is simply a moral plumb line that we do our best to adhere to. By staying true to it we avoid a lot of problems than if we do not. Life is hard even if we obeyed everything, so I just try to have as much going for me as I can. I know some Christians are insensitive Bible thumping buttheads, but most are not. Some are probably haters…but most are not. In fact I see way way more venom and hate coming from the gay crowd that I have ever seen from Christians. Just read about Ted. Granted he was doing stuff behind closed doors that is unacceptable as a pastor, but I have never heard him teach, preach, write, etc anything contrary to the Bible. Please show me some evidence if you disagree.
Matthew Rettenmund
Mike Jones did something brave. He didn’t set out to ruin a life, and if in fact Haggard’s life is ruined it’s because it was a fake life to begin with, one destined to implode. Knowing what he knew about Haggard’s sway over masses of people—and his pathological hypocrisy—Mike did the moral thing. In so doing, he stuck up for gay rights. So what if the measure passed? It’s got to start somewhere. To bother empathizing with Haggard (!) or his family or his flock, people who would probably vote to have homos killed off if they felt they could get away with it, is self-defeating and stupid. Mike Jones rocks. [And PS: How rich that some famous hustler would be angry about his profession’s image problems. Who exactly does he hope to win over with a charm offensive? He even manages to be offended at the impression that whores are whores. Shut up and suck it, Nicholas.]
Hypocrite
First, I think Mike Jones had no idea what he was getting into, but I applaud him for standing for what he believes in. Ted Haggard had to come down and I have a feeling has a sense of relief now. Sounds like Mike’s motives were honest and as a Christian and member of New Life Church, I think he did the right thing. I’m sure there are some who say otherwise, but it is not Mike that is in the wrong (granted his lifestyle and choice of professions is), but you get my point. I do think he is milking it for all it’s worth at Ted’s expense, but you do the crime you pay. This is one of the price’s Ted has to pay for his misdeeds.
Ron
Hi Hypocrite,
I see nothing perverse about sex in the context of love between two consenting adults. Be they gay or straight. I made no reference to sex with kids or infidelity and I understand the need to clearify this.
I still say that the expectation the church has of gays is unrealistic and would be similar to telling a straight guy to NEVER have sex with any woman in any context. That this straight man being asked to deny his sexuality because he can be cured of this perverse sin by prayer is simple minded thinking and impossible.
Instead I see sex as a way of expressing love and as an extention of the physical closeness two people in love share. I cannot explain “why sex” is part of it but I accept it because it flows naturally and feels correct when it happens. That is the part that cannot be explained to anyone who is not homosexual….its the mile they cannot walk in someone elses shoes.
Hypocrite
Good morning Ron,
You are right on in that I have not walked in your shoes and thus can not relate. But same must be said if you do not believe in the Bible. God designed a man to be with a women for sex and procreation. He states that sex apart from a man and women relationship is perverse. The thing is that many in the gay community have an anger towards Christians because we hold this belief and thus a gay person would be considered incorrect in their thinking that God or whatever designed them to be gay. The Bible points this out and thus the gay community thinks we are a bunch of haters. Not true (granted there are some and they are often the loudest, thus getting all the negative attention). Being a Bible believer this is what I hold to be the truth unless somehow I am convinced that there is not a God and that the bible is untrue.
Please please hear me though. I am absolutely not against gay people, we just don’t agree on why they are gay. I think the gay community fights so hard to believe that they are gay by design to avoid condemnation for their lifestyle and to feel justified in their beliefs. They don’t want the guilt associated with it.
Hypocrite
Peter,
Wanted to address something you stated earlier that you never responded to.
“Their spreading of false information about the nature of homosexuality, intent of homosexuals (to recruit children, to spread disease, to promote the downfall of civilization, among others) in their literature and spreading of fear, has been pervasive”
I think you and I have gone back and forth as to the nature and origin of homosexuality and will just have to agree to disagree, but sure you realize that Ted and Dobson have same views. I have never ever heard Ted state anything remotely resembling what you state above as the ‘intent of homosexuals’. Are you glumping all Christians who may have that view in the same bucket? If that is the case then you must know that there are some in the gay community who chose to recruit children…not sure about rest (spread disease, etc. ). Go see NAMBLA for examples. I know not all gays side with this view, but no different for someone to see that all gays are like NAMBLA than for someone to state as you have that Ted is a fear monger. Simply untrue. In fact I don’t know ANY Christian who fear gays. That is idiotic.
You also stated:
“Haggard and Dobson have harmed the lives of milions of gays, through their positions of power, and key hate (the sin of homosexuality) position.”
Because the Bible (not Ted or Dobson) says the homosexuality is a sin how is this equated to hate? I have never heard any Christian, Dobson, Ted, or any other ever preach anything on hate. If so please show me some evidence on this. Again, because we don’t agree, the gay community calls us haters. If we don’t see it your way then that is hate? Come on..
Peter LeCornu
Back to our story….about the “don’t tell” code of hookers. Great long editorial in today’s (Thurs) NY Times about it.
To summarize, the author says that 40 years ago male prostitutes and their clients kept the code — don’t tell — as a mutually protective thing. And it was just standard procedure since nearly ALL gays were in the closet.
Now, gays in society are more open…I think it said 70 to 80% of gay people tell their friends. So, the only ones left in the closet, it isn’t as big a thing to out them, because we all aren’t keeping being gay a secret anymore and many of us feel it is harmful to be keeping it a secret, especially in circumstances like this, where there is hypocrisy and rights at stake.
I don’t the the Wall Street Journal will be doing any articles on loss of income for male hookers, because all the closet cases are too scared to pay for their services.
Ron
The difference I see is: Times have Changed.
Years ago disclosing a man’s homosexuality would result in his unfair loss of his job, no matter how good a man he was or how good a job he was doing. It amounted to vicimization.
Today outing has been used to stop a man doing immoral, hypocritcal and harmful things in his job, usually a position of power and influence he is using to victimize others.
Hypocrite
Ron – Your are right on. In a perfect world there would be no prejudice towards sexual orientation, race, gender, etc. But doubt we will ever get there…but going in the right direction. And yes, times have changed. I do think that sexual orientation is a private matter and no one’s business. The issue I have is that the gay agenda is being radically forced down our throats. Everything from gay pride day and displaying of flags at work to courses on tolerance in the work place and in public schools. I mean, the gay crowd can’t even stand to see the 10 commandments up or the word God used in anything. Talk about intolerance, hypocricy and hate. They want us to swallow their beliefs hook line and sinker…yet are TOTALLY intolerant of a Christians beliefs and labels us all as haters and bigots. Unbelievable.
Ron
Yes it appears they want to turn the tables and put Christians on the defensive now. Seems dysfunctional. Emotional triggers going off prematurely jumping to conclusions. This over-reacting dosen’t give the other side a fair chance to express their views or their personal feelings; but I sure can see why its there.
Families have similar problems when the pain they carry around and continue to re-experience is footballed back and forth between them. They learn just what buttons to push to get the desired reaction. Real progress is hard to make and it is easy to fall back into old destructive patterns.
Charles Darwin
There is no one true religion. Learn it, live it, love it.
Hypocrite
Darwin also admitted that his phil0sophy was flawed before he died. Thus, it was not much more than a glorified opinion…and we all have one of those. Bible works for me.
Todd Kimbrough
I knew Mike Jones form working in the same company years ago (not his current choice of employment). He was very intelligent, articulate and polite to everyone he encountered. He deserves kudos for exposing a low life right-ringer that hid behind his pulpit and spewed hate for the exact things he was participating in……..Makes me wonder how many other “Mike Jones” Haggard has kept company with.
Derwent
Hypocrite,
I will ignore your understandably ignorant position regarding Darwin’s “philosophy”, because it is entirely off-topic and the debates we could get into over it would be long and boring. (Try actually learning something about evolution – you know, from an actual SCIENCE book, God forbid – instead of just recycling the cliche-ridden propoganda and outright lies your church feeds you.)
THIS comment from you, however, can not go unchallenged:
“The issue I have is that the gay agenda is being radically forced down our throats… [etc.]”
What agenda are you refering to?
The “agenda” to not be openly mocked and persecuted by rabid Christian fundamentalists? Or perhaps you’re refering to the “agenda” for same-sex couples to have equal LEGAL rights to hetro couples? No, wait, I got it – you’re refering to the “agenda” of being able to do something as simple as kiss your life partner on the cheek when you part, without having some bystanders think you are “flaunting your sexuality” or “forcing your sexuality down their throats” (not a good metaphor, I might add, considering…). As a Christian I would have though you’d be well-versed in the history and nature of persecution…
You got one thing right – you certainly are NOT open minded. You are just a brain-washed sheep like all your evangelical brothers and sisters.
Oh, and I see you want the Ten Cs posted in schools (and science classes corrupted with your Intelligent Design rubbish too, no doubt) but you don’t want children learning that they don’t have to hate gays like some of their parents do? Where do you get this nonsense idea that it’s the “gay crowd” who object to the forced “Christian-ization” of public schools? Are there no Jews in American public schools? No Muslims, Hindus or atheists? Are your judges – who make the final decisions in these cases – all gay?
Try reading something – ANYTHING – that wasn’t published by an evangelical Christian publishing house and you might just see there’s more to the world than the little halo-encircled snow dome your chruch tells you about.
[End rant]
(P.S. I am 100% straight and very happily married, so don’t try any of that “you’re getting all defensive and angry cos you’re feeling guilty about your gay sin” crap.)
Derwent
Todd K: “Makes me wonder how many other “Mike Jones” Haggard has kept company with.”
I’d be more interested in how many other anti-gay evangelists have kept company with their own “Mike Jones”…