It’s a downlow, derriere dirty shame the Mormon Church does not have its own television-radio-web-iPhone-brain implant simulcast, because they really are depriving the world of a particular brand of Jesus-based comedy. For instance, church elder Bruce Hafen just got done on Saturday telling attendees of Evergreen International’s annual conference that same-sex attraction isn’t something to get hung up on. You can recover!
Evergreen, you’ll recall, is an organization dedicated to ridding Mormons of their gayness. And over the weekend, the 20-year-old organization had its yearly sleepover schingdig, which we’re assured is not a giant orgy for ex-gays.
So Hafen, a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy (that’s a big deal inside LDS), was on hand to tell conference-goers how they could “overcome homosexual behavior.” Step 1, it turns out, does not include “Stop putting your penis in another man’s anus.” Whatever, he’s the expert.
So what did Hafen have to share with the gays trying to reconcile their gayness and belonging to the anti-gay Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Namely, that being gay is “not in your DNA” (it is); that homosexuality should still be considered a mental disorder (it shouldn’t); that therapy can make you straight (it can’t); and that “if you are faithful, on resurrection morning — and maybe even before then — you will rise with normal attractions for the opposite sex” (highly doubtful, but we’ll never question the power of prayer, or Rohypnol).
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
“You are not simply a child of God. You are a son or a daughter of God, with all the masculine or feminine connotations of those words,” Hafen, former dean of BYU’s law school, told the crowd, forgetting that he, himself, has gay face. Or at the very least, feminine features. And also: “”Sometimes that [same-sex] attraction may make you feel sinful, even though the attraction alone is not a sin if you do not act on it. Sometimes you may feel frustration or anger or simply a deep sadness about yourself. But as hard as same-gender attraction is … it does not mean your nature is flawed. Whenever the adversary [i.e. the devil] tries to convince you that you are hopelessly ‘that way,’ so that acting out your feelings is inevitable, he is lying.”
Actually, Hafen is lying. Not only is it (practically) inevitable, it also feels great!
And then there was his whole attack on gay marriage, and how, because most Americans support marriage equality, the LDS church is outside the mainstream. Yes, they are the underdogs! The victims!
Plus the requisite misinformation about how only children from heterosexual marriages are healthy.
All that was missing was a 10-gallon jug of Pjur lube and Amanda Lepore.
Jason
Basic Christianity is the belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree…
That was not weird enough for the Mormons!
They add mystical bejeweled spectacles and golden plates that disappeared when someone other than Joesph Smith wanted to see them, multiple wives in heaven, becoming your own god and, wait for it….MAGIC UNDERWEAR!!!!
All that they can believe.
But gayness being natural? That kind of weirdness is only believed by unevolved superstitious buffoons.
Gary
Why do you report on these scumbags? Do you expect anything else? How does this help our community?
Who cares what that superstitious, hateful fossil “thinks”? By the look of him, he’ll be dead in few more years and good riddance!
THAT’S the kind of news you should be reporting.
dgz
well, he’s kindof right… being gay is NOT in your DNA.
most experts believe it’s a trait created in utero, as a product of the mother’s immune response.
j
@Jason: This.
rodney
Gary, Mormons statistically live 10 years longer than the rest of society. Ironically homosexuals live considerably shorter life spans. Obviously they are doing something right. Hafen will still be at work long after you’re pushing up daisies.
Nice try DGZ. Even with all the millions upon millions spent by science trying to prove homosexuality is anything but behavioral they still have yet to do it. The Utero theory is interesting though. I have a theory too: Homosexuality is caused by exposure to UV rays while eating popcorn. Am I right? Just as right as you are, because it’s a theory. Homosexuality is not in your DNA. Until you prove otherwise you can call me a Gay-theist.
Nothing like a brilliant and classy guy like Jason to counter what he considers “bigotry” with religious bigotry and name calling. It’s nice to pull back the curtains and see your comments about those who believe in God a year before we all get ready to win votes for the gay marriage battle in 2010. If you actually read Hafen’s talk (anyone here done that yet besides me?) he expressed nothing but love for homosexuals. Although you disagree with what he said, he never called them names, belittled them, etc. He called them Children of God and expressed his love for them. Keep your classy comments up though. You’re only alienating yourselves even more from the religious MAJORITY in America prior to the 2010 votes. You have to love the homosexual “community outreach”.
rodney
Before I forget…
Don’t forget to visit http://www.narth.com for the rebuttal to the APA proclamation.
stevenelliot
@rodney: what pompous drivel. I dont give one damn shit about what science and religion think or know. I was gay before I knew I was gay, and then when puberty hit I became sexual and was attracted to other men. End of discussion.
Regardless of the “religious majority’s” viewpoint, this is a private personal issue between me and my gonads. AND until the time that religious leaders CEASE making $$$ off this issue I have no respect for their views on the subject of Homo-transformation and discrimination.
If we persecuted people because they didnt like spinach but prefered brocoli, would that be any more ludicrous than a seventy year old man standing up telling young adults that they can change their sexual preference?? The only reason this is an issue is because its about sex. And ever since Paul couldnt get Mary magdeline or Jesus into the sack, sex has been an issue for Christians……
If the religious majority wishes to convince a certain number of gay people that they can change and inherent, predestined part of their being, then let them go sell snake oil to those idiots. BUT you have to remember that these are the very same individuals who make up fuzzy science about a whole range of other issues to also suit their world view and agenda.
Jesus was thrown on a cross because he faught the money laundering hierarchy. and what do you think these moralist leaders are????
Synnerman
Seems like this is the same Rodney spreading his religious zealotry at towleroad and trying to call it “science.”
rodney
“ludicrous than a seventy year old man standing up telling young adults that they can change their sexual preference??”
So how can someone like Cher’s daughter change her sexual preference? Are you saying that as long as it’s straight to gay it’s ok, but if it’s gay to straight that’s a problem? I’m seeing a huge flaw in your logic.
What’s ludicrous is that the Gay agenda gets promoted through anger and vitriol, yet anyone who has an opposing viewpoint is called a “bigot”.
“If the religious majority wishes to convince a certain number of gay people that they can change and inherent, predestined part of their being, then let them go sell snake oil to those idiots”. Who are you to tell someone they can’t control or change their sexuality? Where is the science that PROVES homosexuality is “inherent” and “predestined”. I’d love to see it. That’s the problem with the Gay agenda…it can’t prove that homosexuality is anything but behavioral. Keep it classy though. I love to see homosexuals making inroads with such kind and respectful language. Just because you disagree doesn’t mean you have the right to bash someones religion. Mormons are pro traditional marriage not anti gay. If Mormons were anti gay I highly doubt Hafen would be talking to a group of Mormons who struggle with SSA.
rodney
“Seems like this is the same Rodney spreading his religious zealotry at towleroad and trying to call it “science.””
What “religious zealotry” am I spreading? I haven’t mentioned religion at all? WTF are you talking about?
The constant theme I’m realizing about both Towleroad and Queerty is the authors go completely unchecked. You accuse religious Americans of being sheep, blind, etc. yet when the author says something like:
“So what did Hafen have to share with the gays trying to reconcile their gayness and belonging to the anti-gay Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Namely, that being gay is “not in your DNA” (it is); that homosexuality should still be considered a mental disorder (it shouldn’t); that therapy can make you straight (it can’t); and that “if you are faithful, on resurrection morning — and maybe even before then — you will rise with normal attractions for the opposite sex” (highly doubtful, but we’ll never question the power of prayer, or Rohypnol).”
“It is”?
Oh really, where is the science to back it up?
“it shouldn’t”
Hafen never said it was a “mental disorder” but nice job putting words in his mouth. He simply agreed with the current sentiment among researchers that the jury is still out. (Even the APA agrees with this) But, alas, who wants to actually read the entire talk Hafen gave when we can get the recklessly spinned version here?
“It Can’t”
Tell that to the thousands of scientist, researchers, and doctors at http://www.narth.com who say it can. Who wants to get a balanced view though anyway?
Rikard
Inflamitory arguments aside RODNEY, the reason we “struggle” with same sex attraction is because the overt and covert influence of society in general and religious soceity in particular tell us we are inferior, damaged, sinful, weak, sick, dangerous, doomed criminals. We are not too stupid to get the message, but fewer of us are willing to accept it’s accuracy. Every year more of us stand up, come out and say “you are wrong, you don’t know what it is to be gay, but I do”. You may not like what we have to say, but we know what we are talking about.
M Shane
No. 9 · rodney; Did it ever occur to you that you have no idea of what you are talking about; As steve said clearly , being gay is not a viewpoint: it’s an orientation over which we have no choice. As gay people experience it, and i don’t care how many hundreds of people you speak to,you will get te same report. What are you, is it something you got harrassed to believe like the Mormon religion which is nothing but a bunch of hocus pocus .
In any case, it’s irrelivant where homosexuality came from. It’s really none of yours or anyone elses damned buziness.
Who are we hurting; in the way that religious fanatics do? You can go fuck goats, I won’t interfere.We’ve been kletting you attend your crasy churches, who no place else in the world would want. So leave me and other gay people alone.
rodney
I appreciate your candor Rikard and it’s nice to see someone make a comment here that has a dose of reality in it. I have a brother who is openly gay and I’m not totally out-of-touch with the issues he faces. My brother and I have a great relationship, but that is not to say he doesn’t have his struggles related to homosexuality. He lives on the other side of the country in a VERY gay friendly area and has almost no contact with religion at all. Yet he still struggles with self esteem issues, drugs, and other things. Who’s to blame for that? Jerry Falwell? The Mormons? When you say that all of the depression and struggles that homosexuals face is a result of the straight community I don’t buy it. Homosexuals like to generalize and say anyone that doesn’t agree with their lifestyle is “right wing extremist” or “out of touch”. I don’t buy that either.
Now let me give you something to think about. If I ate nothing but oatmeal everyday eventually I would get sick and probably die. Oatmeal is good, natural, healthy, I crave it, and I feel good after I eat it, but my body wasn’t designed to eat just oatmeal.
Now lets say that human beings were made with feeling, sadness, joy, anger, affection, etc. You can’t say that humans are mindless animals. We have feeling and passions. What if we acted out on every passion and desire? What if I craved beer and spent my entire life drinking nothing but beer? I’d have my short term needs met but eventually I’d get sick and die. My personal feelings are that humans have the ability to curb desires. If you disagree with that so be it. The Mormon Church does not deny people have homosexual desires. Let me repeat that, THE MORMON CHURCH DOES NOT DENY THAT PEOPLE HAVE HOMOSEXUAL DESIRES. The Mormon Church teaches that sexual relations are to be between only a legally married man and woman. Any sex outside of marriage between a man and wife is sinful in the eyes of the Church. That will never change. The idea is that when people marry a spouse of the opposite sex and procreate, they will have joy in their posterity and perpetuate the human race. This doctrine has been taught from the beginning of time to Mormons. Disagree if you will, but know this; Mormons deserve the same respect as you and anyone else with a differing opinion. Hafen did not attack homosexuals. He offered a differing viewpoint (which is what the majority of society agrees with) yet he is bashed on this website and others as if he isn’t allowed to have an opinion. America is getting ready for some huge social issue votes in 2010, and I can assure you that bigotry towards Mormons and belittling their cherished beliefs will not win you votes. It’s time for homosexuals to recalibrate their message (most already have) to one of “look at us, we’re contributing members of society, how can I help you, let’s be friends”, instead of “nobody tells me what to do, I’ll bash anyone that gets in my way”.
Jason
Jason
Great take on what a “bible based” marriage really is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw
HiredGoons
Was this written on a gold plate somewhere?
Larry
@ Rodney:
It’s my understanding that Cher’s SON, Chaz, did not change his sexual preference. He was attracted to women prior to his sex change, and he is still attracted to women.
Identity (one’s gender) is completely separate from one’s orientation (who one is attracted to).
Which brings up another issue re: Marriage equality…
I have yet to see what definitions of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ are being used in the anti-marriage laws. Once ‘man’ and ‘woman’ are written into law, then they become legal terms and must be defined. The problem is, there are at least five different definitions and none describes everyone. Human beings are far more subtle, diverse, and complex. It therefore make far more sense to say:
“Marriage is a legal contract between two able and consenting adults.”
Rodney
Jason, I hope you’ve got better arguments for your cause then that video. Nothing like a condescending anti-christian video to win support from the religious MAJORITY. Fortunately for your cause several civil minded proponents of gay marriage realize that religious attacks only set your work back. With a down economy expected to last through 2010 people tend to get a little more humble and turn to churches for temporal and spiritual support. I’m sure those religious folks will just love a video bashing their cherished beliefs when it’s time to go to the polls.
HiredGoons, Who can’t appreciate a “totally sweet zinger” against Mormons. Whoa buddy, you better pump the breaks before your get a contract at Saturday Night Live. More and more religions of America are realizing that an attack on one man’s religion is an attack on all religion. Once again. Keep the low blows coming. You’re digging your own grave when it comes to voting time. Mormons like Hafen disagree with your views but they don’t resort to name calling, personal attacks, etc. I’d trust Hafen over Perez when it comes to what’s best for society any day.
HiredGoons
@Rodney: “More and more religions of America are realizing that an attack on one man’s religion is an attack on all religion.”
I find it ironic that you’re complaining about groups of people being attacked.
“Keep the low blows coming.”
You mean like ‘God Hates Fags?’
“Hafen disagree with your views but they don’t resort to name calling, personal attacks, etc”
You’re not serious, right?
Mike K
@Jason: Yes Mormonism the Scientology of the 19th century!
Jasper
I find it odd that the “majority” has any say in minority rights at all.
Darrien
Oh Rodney, Rodney, Rodney. You poor soul. Given your judgemental and condenatory attitude to your brother is it any wonder that your gay brother lives as far away from you as possible and may or may not have ‘drug’ problems. I’ve not met you and I’ve only read a couple of your comments and already I can see someone having self-esteem problems if they breathed the same air as you for more than two minutes. Seriously child, are you so perfect, so knowledgeable of the world, so caught up in your certainty that you can admit no doubt?
Whatever else you think you’re doing here, you’re not actually attacking us or proving your point. You’re crying out for help because you clearly know somewhere deep inside you that there’s a hesitancy in your understanding of the world.
Instead of beign aggressive, just ask your questions. Perhaps they’re the questions you’ve never asked your brother, or perhaps questions about your own relationship with your faith and how that reacts with the wider world. But either way, I’m reading your comments as a plea for help rather than a reasoned argument.
Akula
I wouldn’t have a problem with any of these religious peoples opinions if they actually followed the entire bible not just pick and choose what they wanted enforced and blew off the rest. For example if they were as adamant about the cardinal sins such as greed and gluttony two really big ones that are practiced day in and day out in this country. Until that time comes then they are hypocrites plain and simple.
K
Rodney: Funny, you mention a “religious MAJORITY” in caps. Sorry to desappoint you, but you’re not part of that MAJORITY. The MAJORITY is born-again and Catholic, not Mormon. Mormonism remains one of the most unpopular religions in the country by that same MAJORITY. Why do you think Mitt Romney will never be on the ballot as a presidential candidate? FAIL.
We don’t have to prove anything to you, as much as you don’t have to prove why you should have the right to practice your cult. We could choose to express disapproval of your cult through a ballot initiative, but we don’t; that’s the difference between you and us, between respect and intolerance, which is something you can’t understand in your narrow view of those around you and the world.
Rodney
FYI Akula, the “Cardinal Sins” are not mentioned in the bible. They are an extra-Biblical teaching in the Catholic Church.
That is sure a sweet and sentimental post Darrien, but my brother moved away for School and decided he liked the place. It’s not uncommon for families to live apart. The point of bringing my brother into this is to let you know that I do have some understanding of homosexuality’s effect on the family first hand. As I said before my brother and I have a good relationship. We obviously disagree on things but we are still civil unlike may on this message board. I’m not being agressive. I haven’t resorted to name calling and personal attacks, etc. Since when is a differing opinion = aggresive? Why so sensitive?
Mike K. Mormonism was founded long before Scientology and bears absolutely no resemblance to it whatsoever. That was a nice zinger though. Be sure and call Mike Huckabee and let him know you are using his play-book.
Jasper. Let me give you an example of majority vs minority. All across America there are people who love to smoke cigarettes. It’s a free country, it’s their body, their health, etc. Do they have the right to smoke in a McDonalds restaurant? No. They lost that right long ago. In some States they can’t even smoke in their own cars if Children are present. Who was the majority that took the rights away from the minority of smokers? It might have been you Jasper. Sure a smoker will tell you that “second hand smoke” is a big farce, but guess what. They don’t have that right because the MAJORITY voted against it. So goes gay marriage, and a slew of other things that voters voted against. Welcome to America. This is above and beyond religion. The Majority rules. I’m voted against George Bush in 04, but guess what? The majority voted for him and I had no choice but to accept it. Once again. Welcome to America where the Majority (in this case religious majority) rules.
Hired Goons, The Mormons are not attacking the Gays. The Mormons are preserving traditional marriage which they view as being under attack. In doing this you have to realize that a differing opinion does not equal an attack. Mormons are just as American as you are, and as such have every right to an opinion and a vote. Hafen did not attack Gays either. He was speaking to a group of his own Church Members who struggle with SSA and like numerous other people including NARTH.com is working to provide love and support to them in making the transition to living either a straight or celibate lifestyle. As far as “God Hates Fags” don’t try and steal the spotlight, that Church has probably spent more of it’s time and resources on its “God Hates Mormons” campaign. Obviously these people are completely nuts and were written off a long time ago. They obviously do not represent the sentiment of the vast, vast majority of religions in America.
TomEM
Now now – it’s not a sin to be a Mormon. However, acting on it…
Akula
Great Rodney I’ll just settle for the TEN COMMANDMENTS they are in the bible right?
TomEM
Oops, I think I was “being a bigot.” What I should have penned is: It’s not a sin to *be religious*…
Kenster999
@rodney (Comment #5): “Homosexuality is not in your DNA. Until you prove otherwise you can call me a Gay-theist.”
It’s very simple. I didn’t choose to be gay. I never made a choice.
I’m not lying, stupid, or being mislead by Satan.
I’m the expert on me, and I’m telling you that I never made a choice. The burden is completely upon you to prove otherwise.
jessi
Rodney take your stupid bullshit and go somewhere else! People can’t control who they are attracted to. If you aren’t attracted to fat people you never will be, no matter how many fat americans there are. If a white female is only sexually attracted to black men, should she be crucified for what turns her on? Why should gay people be crucified by a bunch of self righteous pricks like yourself because you don’t agree with who they sleep with. That would be like me telling you, you can only sleep with big fat hairy women, who can’t wipe their own asses (which is probably true anyway TROLL!) How would you like that?
jessi
My question to mormons is, since Mormonism was started in the 1800’s by a human male, why do so many sheeple flock to this religion? I mean, look at the protestant and catholic religions. They are alot older. Although they were also started by men, they have more roots and …basically what I’m trying to say is, it seems any waco can start a religion. David Keresh was Waco in Texas. He thought he was god. Lets just say he wrote a book and wasn’t infiltrated and found enough followers to start another religion. He takes passages from the bible and adds his own ideology, same as any other religion. So basically these followers are worshipping false prophets and false GOds, which is their bible. They aren’t worshipping God, they are worshipping their bible and its content and the ideas of its maker, who in fact was a man.
Brian Miller
I don’t even engage these idiots in the “choice” debate. They’re ignorant morons who don’t have a clue… the “ten years longer life” drivel is rather proof positive of that.
An argument with these doofuses over whether your own sexual orientation was a “choice” or not is pointless. They’re not interested in facts or others’ experiences, they simply are interested in hating others. Any study that disproves their “deeply held beliefs” is simply ignored or derided as “antireligious propaganda.” Ignore them and/or laugh at them. Engaging them simply provides their egos with validation.
terrwill
@rodney: RODNEY: FUCK YOU! No one here is denying any religion the freedom to worship as they chose, to associate with whom they wish to nor to preach what they wish. However when a tax-exempt church spends millions of dollars and advocates its members to donate millions of dollars in a movement to deny gays the right to marry that’s whats wrong! I didn’t chose whom to love. You DID chose to be a hateful, bigoted, scumbag………..
Cam
@dgz: you said “well, he’s kindof right… being gay is NOT in your DNA.
most experts believe it’s a trait created in utero, as a product of the mother’s immune response.
Posted: Sep 21, 2009 at 4:14 pm “”
______________________________________
That isn’t true, one expert has hypothosized that. That isn’t “Most Experts”
Cam
@Rodney: you said “Hired Goons, The Mormons are not attacking the Gays. The Mormons are preserving traditional marriage which they view as being under attack. In doing this you have to realize that a differing opinion does not equal an attack. Mormons are just as American as you are, and as such have every right to an opinion and a vote.”
_____________________________________________
Rodney, your argument could just as easily be said that the Klan isn’t attacking blacks, they are just trying to get back to what they see as the traditional America when whites had the right to whip, beat and kill their slaves.
The Mormons funded anti gay marriage amendments, the Mormons have handed down instructions through the bishops that being gay is a mental disorder. The mormons through their services have told parents that if your child is gay, you can cast them out without guilt because they are evil and rotten inside and no longer the child they knew. Please don’t try to tell us that the mormon church is trying to preserve traditional marriage. We know ALL about the mormon’s viewpoint on traditional marriage and why the polygomous cults in Utah and northern AZ are not harrassed by the Mormon dominated police forces there. Nice try though.
Jason
@Rodney:
A polite bigot is still a bigot.
Mwah!
Jason
@Rodney:
Rodney, one more thing: Look up the meaning and history of Collaborationism. Basically it means cooperating with enemy forces and complicity with oppressive and exploitive acts.
I would hate to have to atone for that when I arrive at the Pearly Gates.
By the way, I will be praying for you.
emb
Rodney seems to be obsessed with the idea of majoritarianism, that somehow because lots of people believe in one invisible magical sky fairy or another, the fact of “lotsness” mysteriously makes their fantasy true. Since a majority of people on earth have, at various times, believed the planet to be flat, or the center of the solar system, or that dark-skinned people are inherently inferior to lighter-skinned ones, seems to have escaped his notice. Majority opinion does not equal accuracy.
A majority of people are welcome to believe whatever they want about my sexuality, but frankly I’m the closest to it and a more accurate judge. And until Rodney is willing to let a majority vote on whether or not Mormonism is a particuarly silly religion (and he might be surprised at the large number of vehemently anti-mormon christians in the US), then he should clam up about letting majority opinion determine the validity of individual’s most private, personal feelings.
Steve
@Jason: That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time. (Wait for it… magic underwear!) Too bad the comments had to take such a negative turn. =P
Andrew
@Gary: “Why do you report on these scumbags? Do you expect anything else? How does this help our community?”
Because these are the people, along with their fellow christians, that have made you wrong for 2,000 years. THEY are the problem. 70% of Americans believe we are “morally wrong” and they got that belief from religious teachings.
Would you rather have some news on how HRC still hasn’t changed any minds – after 28 years and $200 million? Or how GLAAD got upset with Bruno because the little baby was named OJ?
Gay Inc., has been completely ineffective in our fight for equality. If we want to be equal, we can’t be wrong. Religion made us wrong. Religion must stop that teaching or face some very real consequences – like fewer “believers.” The last time LGBTQ stood up to religion was when Anita Bryant’s career was ended.
Our community needs to have some courage and stand up to the negative branding by religion. I really don’t care if religion survives or not, but the belief that we’re wrong is not going to survive.
Rikard
@rodney: RODNEY, your “oatmeal” analogy is silly, your “gay brother” claim is dubious and your fragmented argument is designed to make agreement impossible. You assume prople will make choices designed to enable them to live longer (at least that can be quantified) and be happier (good luck judging that one without human flaws buddy). You are either profoundly naive, or gay baiting (silly rabbit).
David
“You assume prople will make choices designed to enable them to live longer (at least that can be quantified) and be happier (good luck judging that one without human flaws buddy).”
This could be useful, actually.
A number of studies have concluded that being married decreases one’s risk for a variety of life-threatening/fatal illnesses, and effectively extends one’s projected life span.
Perhaps GLBTQ people could file a class-action lawsuit against all opponents of same-sex marriage, bringing together case law about corporate responsibility for environmental toxins they release, like asbestos, and research on the negative health consequences of being denied marriage.
Julian Edward Domain
Too many queer mormons for that to be true. But I can see them using eugenics to try and modify the gay out of the genome. Really is that any different than rejecting your child upon adulthood because they don’t conform to christofacist ideology and bite the bullet and deny their queerness.
Jonny
I love it that Mormons are worried about tradition. There are trees in this country that are 4 or 5 times as old as the LDS church.
Anyone who uses religion as an argument against human rights (or science!) is an idiot and deserves to be ignored.
There’s nothing polite about bigotry, and bigotry based on religion should be given no safe harbor anywhere.
Jonny
Oh one more thing, take your Book of Mormon and shove it up your ex-gay ass.
Cam
@Jonny: You said “I love it that Mormons are worried about tradition. There are trees in this country that are 4 or 5 times as old as the LDS church.”
___________________________
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great comment!
terrwill
BOYS AND GIRLS~IGNORE RODNEY~ this asshat is all ova this site spewing his incoherant crap. His only goal is to create controversey……please don’t feed the animals!! Ignore him…..
Ken Harper
What a shame to read all of these Pro-gay comments. It is very apparent who can keep a level head and carry a civil conversation. Reading a lot of these responses was like reading the trash in the supermarket isle, a waste of time. For a group that is screaming equality and tolerance, I tend to hear nothing but “my way or the highway”. Can’t we all just get along?
vernonvanderbilt
@Ken Harper: No. As long as one segment of the population remains hellbent on dehumanizing and oppressing a much smaller segment of the population, there will be no getting along. There can be no peace in an environment of inequality, only conflict and struggle. Until LGBT people finally win full, equal rights as American citizens, the same rights that are taken for granted by our bigoted, evil oppressors, there is zero chance for anything even remotely resembling a peaceable reconciliation. Anyone who thinks (or wants) otherwise is entirely delusional.
The real shame is that bigots like you and Rodney are under the impression that we’re living in a theocracy, and that your particular religion sets the moral standards for the entire nation. There would be no venom or vitriol directed towards you “people” if you had the common sense to stop being evil and let people live their lives the way they see fit. This especially holds true in situations where the fair and deserved outcome has literally zero impact on your life. If you want to be treated with respect, then you need to show some first. Voting against equality is as far from respectful as it gets.
And don’t think that because people might actually engage you on this topic that that means it’s deserving of debate. This isn’t a debate. It’s the act of holding up a mirror to show you “people” the reflection of your own wickedness. You choose whether to look at it or not (usually not) but that does not change what it is. You’re not only on the losing side of history, you’re on the losing side of humanity. For this, you all should be ashamed. Someday, you will be.
vernonvanderbilt
@Ken Harper: And seriously, are you completely retarded? What sort of comments would you expect on a fucking gay website. You’re an ass.
schlukitz
@Ken Harper:
For a group that is screaming equality and tolerance, I tend to hear nothing but “my way or the highway”.
Umm, I think you have that backwards, Jack! It’s the church who is saying that, not the gays.
And yeah, to echo Vernon…Hello! You’re on a gay site.
What’s scary, is that people like you vote!
vernonvanderbilt
@schlukitz: What’s scarier is that these “people” breed. They probably home school their spawn as well, so they can be well-trained in spreading hate and oppressing minorities. The world would be a better place without Ken Harpers and Rodneys in it. Why can’t we get a fucking Rapture already? Sweep these subhumans off the planet so that decent, rational people can usher in this “era of peace” that everyone seems so interested in.
schlukitz
@vernonvanderbilt:
Why can’t we get a fucking Rapture already?
I hear that they are working very hard on that. In the Middle East.
We’d call it a nuclear nightmare.
They’ll call it the “Rapture”.
vernonvanderbilt
@schlukitz: Now I have Antony & the Johnsons in my head. 🙂 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJNdEhlGI0s
schlukitz
@vernonvanderbilt:
That was very beautiful. Thank you for sharing it with me.
vernonvanderbilt
@schlukitz: You’re very welcome. I firmly believe that if more people were Antony fans, the world would be a nicer place to live. Antony is my favorite living vocalist, communicating both the heartbreak and joy of being an “other” in a manner that is more moving than anything I’ve ever heard.
Bill Perdue
Religion in each and every case is part superstition and part deliberate ignorance and a rejection of scientific truth. It’s intimately connected with rightwing politicians and combined they are the enemy.
Given the continued economic chaos, bigotries, and imperial ambitions that characterized American society, at some point we’ll have a chance to create fundamental change in this country. That’ll probably happen sooner rather than later. Then we can institute the same kinds of programs used by the French and Russian revolutionaries to neutralize cults and cult leaders.
• We can imprison lawbreakers, including scofflaw cult leaders who intrude in civil affairs.
• We can forbid any interference in civil institutions like education, partnering (including marriage) and medical services.
• We can totally suppress their near universal propensity for sexual abuse with a one strike sentence of life at hard labor.
• We can confiscate their wealth in land and real estate, art, gold and jewelry and secularize their schools and medical facilities without compensation. It’s a tradition that spans history from the Pharaohs, Henry the 8th, Ataturk and the ongoing completion of the Iranian Revolution.
In the meantime arguing with superstitious ridden louts is just venting. While that’s sometimes useful it doesn’t actually harm them, and harming them is what we should be doing. To the extent that someone buys into all that superstition and backwardness they’re deranged. They don’t hear our arguments or understand our rage. Another way to vent is to select a cult or cult leader in your area that makes a habit of interfering in civil and political affairs and who claims tax exemptions and let the IRS know what’s going on.
You may be able to get help for local civil libertarians and these kind of efforts are more successful the more people they involve.
1. Go to http://www.irs.gov
2. On the upper left activate the box for forms and publications.
3. Under the heading “Download forms and publications by:” activate the first item “Form and Publication Number (PDF)”
4. On that page locate and select Form 3949A on page 20. It’s entitled “Information Referral”.
5) Print it and fill it out with as much information as you can, appending news stories, eyewitness accounts, and etc.
6) Mail it to the address on page 2 of the form.
7) Follow up.
8) Don’t be a loner. Ask people you know to do the same.
Venting is human. Hitting them financially, divine.
jessi
@emb you made a very good point. Great Observation.
FlopsyMopsyCT
You know, I just don’t really see the relevance of nature versus nurture or choice or whatever in this whole discussion. I think the relevant is that there are homosexual men and women who are comfortable with their lifestyle, regardless of what caused it. Homosexual people exist and they lead fine normal lives. If homosexual members of the CoLDS want to try and change their sexuality, I feel that is just fine. I think it’s sad, but I think they should be able to do what they want in lines with their religion.
In regards to some of the comments that Rodney made, I’ve done quite a bit of research on the nature v. nurture dichotomy and most CREDIBLE, scientific studies (conducted by groups neither affiliated with conservative, religious nor homosexual groups) tend to show a correlation between biology and homosexuality. I would direct you to a study done by a Stanford University group (I believe the study was commissioned by the government). It’s from several years ago, but it was one of the more ground-breaking, unbiased studies done. It was also conducted during a time in which the liberal-versus-conservative homosexual debate was not politically or socially relevant. I just looked for the link and I can’t find it, but I am sure you could google it with great ease.
I would like to add though that the debate between nature and nurture is still very mucky. There is no clear answer as to from where homosexuality comes. Rodney is right in that regard, but I think he is insinuating a greater success on nurture’s part than what is really shown in unbiased studies. Granted, it was a while back that I researched this stuff, so maybe there have been more developments.
In regards to the article and the “changing gays to straights” thing. While I do not know of any studies done regarding the success of these initiatives, personal experience tells, at least me, and I am sure many others, that they are not to be taken with full heart. I went to conservatory in Arizona. My school had a big Mormon population. I knew several homosexual Mormon men (although, many cut their ties with the church) who went through these types of programs. All of these men stated the programs were a sham. Further, I heard several, horrible stories about what goes on in some of these things. Now the 12 or 13 guys that I knew that went through this are hardly a decent, representative sample to discern the success rates of the types of things. However, it did shed some light on whether these programs are ethical and, quite frankly, moral. I am a member of the Catholic Church, a notorious opponent of the gays. However, even the Church acknowledges (to a certain degree) an inability for homosexual men and women to change. Instead, they beg a life of celibacy from their homosexual members. While I do not agree with the Church on many things, that is one thing I’ve always appreciated.
One last thing, this whole mission of the CoLDS to “change” their gay and lesbian members . . . I think this is simply irresponsible and improper. The last thing America needs is more closeted men and women in heterosexual marriages. I think all of us (who are gay) could enter into heterosexual marriages, indeed we could (if we could find a partner of the opposite sex). However, is this what we really want? Allegedly changed homosexual men and women fighting sexual urges that have been scientifically and naturally proven to be very difficult to ignore entering heterosexual marriage? I can’t think of a worser fate for the institution. I’d direct people to look up Bonnie Kaye. This woman has counseled tens of thousands of women that have found themselves in a marriage with a man with homosexual tendencies . . . and that’s just men.
No offense to Rodney, but I have some real problems with the CoLDS, not only for the above reasons. While I appreciate your ability to defend Hafen (I believe you when you say he is not hateful towards homosexuals), but I do think the “change” into heterosexuality he is promulgating is highly irresponsible to the institution of marriage. That is not something that I can respect in a church, treating one of its greatest sacraments so recklessly. It is one way in which I think the Catholic Church is far superior. Granted, the Catholic Church has a lot of updating that is desperately needed. But just a thought.
One last thing, what study did you read that indicated that Mormons live 10 years longer than homosexuals (or whatever statistic you referenced above)? I (and I am sure others) would like to see that, if you have a link.
Bitch Republic
Here’s a funny web comic about the Mormon DNA thing:
http://www.smarmycomics.com/2009/09/25-september-2009.html
Neil
I am not sure where these morons was educated at but I tell you that I am very well educated and I do not live behind a shield or live in a shelter world and you will have to prove to me that your are not born this way. When there is other species on this plantedthat goes with there on sex or transform from male to female I see the church as a good thing but brainwashing is wrong and when the general authority get up judge there own and persecute people for being gay is this not the same as in Mormon history when they was persecute for being Mormons and a law was pass to kill Mormons in one state hmm let’s think about this the church can have it’s opinion but it dose not make it right. Would you want to see you’re on son or daughter commit suicide. On judgment day I think we see a different side from god for all the judging that’s going on.
B
dgz “well, he’s kindof right… being gay is NOT in your DNA.
most experts believe it’s a trait created in utero, as a product of the mother’s immune response.”
Which is why comparisons of identical versus fraternal twins showed that if one is gay, the probability that the other is also gay is about 50/50 for identical twins and under half that for fraternal twins, and still less for non-twin siblings? The evidence is that it is at least partially in your DNA.
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/17/science/gay-men-in-twin-study.html has a summary.
B
Jason wrote, “That was not weird enough for the Mormons!”
What is weird is that pictures of the Mormon’s founder Joseph Smith would probably set off a few guys’ gaydar.
http://gallery.christ.org/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2970&g2_serialNumber=2 has an example.
http://www.ldstaiwan.com/english/images/first.jpg shows him on his knees (approximately) in front of two guys in robes, suggesting something obvious about what is going to follow. Let’s not go there. 🙂
golow
Hmmm! I never thought I’d be supporting an argument like Rodney’s, but I think he’s supporting his position better than most.
Shane’s idea that the gay community has no control over who they are is a flawed conception. Of course, anyone can choose what they want and how they act. It’s a choice! We can’t make excuses when we have power over ourselves. Man is not weak! We must not decieve ourselves into believing whatever happens just happens.
Weston
All,
Let me butt in here to say a few things, hopefully to add a little respect to an extremely polarized conversation.
1. I’m Mormon.
2. I’m straight.
3. I absolutely believe the gay community should have equal rights.
4. I did not support Prop 8.
5. Yes, I can justify my Mormon beliefs with my political beliefs, because I believe in the separation of Church and State. On the one hand, I do believe Adam and Eve were made for each other, that natural procreation is an important part of life, and that we’re all sent to this earth to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.” On the other hand, I believe a person can and should be allowed to live his or her life according to the dictates of their own conscience, and I’ll only call you a “sinner” when you’re a Mormon “breaking a Mormon law” (and even then I won’t call you a sinner because that’s just plain self-righteous); that is, if you aren’t Mormon, you aren’t bound to live, say, the no-alcohol law. So do what you want–I won’t stop you. In all honesty, I’ll stand with you, as long as we can work together for a greater good (less bigotry in both camps, for instance).
To all of those call us sheeple or cultists or mindless ignorants:
1. Believe it or not, I don’t live in my oppressive parents’ basement–I’m actually an assistant prof. interested in Aristotelian and Burkean logic, as well as Ordinary Language criticism, Heidegger, and neo-platonism. In other words, I actually do think for myself.
2. I don’t believe in Christ because I’m ignorant; I don’t believe the devil exists because I’m backwoods; I don’t believe in Mormonism because I’m prone to sensationalism, Joseph Smith worship, or socially constructed collaboratism. Rather, I’ve walked the dark path of depression via substance abuse and hyper-eroticism, and the only thing that kept me alive (kept me from suicide) was finding the church. No, I wasn’t born a sheeple–Mormonism isn’t in my DNA. I chose it and it saved me, and since then, time and again, I’ve seen and heard and felt things that tell me, without doubt, that God exists. What’s more, that he loves us–me, my son, you, your partner.