Let me butt in here to say a few things, hopefully to add a little respect to an extremely polarized conversation.

1. I’m Mormon.
2. I’m straight.
3. I absolutely believe the gay community should have equal rights.
4. I did not support Prop 8.
5. Yes, I can justify my Mormon beliefs with my political beliefs, because I believe in the separation of Church and State. On the one hand, I do believe Adam and Eve were made for each other, that natural procreation is an important part of life, and that we’re all sent to this earth to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.” On the other hand, I believe a person can and should be allowed to live his or her life according to the dictates of their own conscience, and I’ll only call you a “sinner” when you’re a Mormon “breaking a Mormon law” (and even then I won’t call you a sinner because that’s just plain self-righteous); that is, if you aren’t Mormon, you aren’t bound to live, say, the no-alcohol law. So do what you want–I won’t stop you. In all honesty, I’ll stand with you, as long as we can work together for a greater good (less bigotry in both camps, for instance).

To all of those call us sheeple or cultists or mindless ignorants:

1. Believe it or not, I don’t live in my oppressive parents’ basement–I’m actually an assistant prof. interested in Aristotelian and Burkean logic, as well as Ordinary Language criticism, Heidegger, and neo-platonism. In other words, I actually do think for myself.

2. I don’t believe in Christ because I’m ignorant; I don’t believe the devil exists because I’m backwoods; I don’t believe in Mormonism because I’m prone to sensationalism, Joseph Smith worship, or socially constructed collaboratism. Rather, I’ve walked the dark path of depression via substance abuse and hyper-eroticism, and the only thing that kept me alive (kept me from suicide) was finding the church. No, I wasn’t born a sheeple–Mormonism isn’t in my DNA. I chose it and it saved me, and since then, time and again, I’ve seen and heard and felt things that tell me, without doubt, that God exists. What’s more, that he loves us–me, my son, you, your partner.

Shane’s idea that the gay community has no control over who they are is a flawed conception. Of course, anyone can choose what they want and how they act. It’s a choice! We can’t make excuses when we have power over ourselves. Man is not weak! We must not decieve ourselves into believing whatever happens just happens.

What is weird is that pictures of the Mormon’s founder Joseph Smith would probably set off a few guys’ gaydar.

http://gallery.christ.org/main.....alNumber=2 has an example.

http://www.ldstaiwan.com/english/images/first.jpg shows him on his knees (approximately) in front of two guys in robes, suggesting something obvious about what is going to follow. Let’s not go there. :-)

Which is why comparisons of identical versus fraternal twins showed that if one is gay, the probability that the other is also gay is about 50/50 for identical twins and under half that for fraternal twins, and still less for non-twin siblings? The evidence is that it is at least partially in your DNA.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12.....study.html has a summary.

In regards to some of the comments that Rodney made, I’ve done quite a bit of research on the nature v. nurture dichotomy and most CREDIBLE, scientific studies (conducted by groups neither affiliated with conservative, religious nor homosexual groups) tend to show a correlation between biology and homosexuality. I would direct you to a study done by a Stanford University group (I believe the study was commissioned by the government). It’s from several years ago, but it was one of the more ground-breaking, unbiased studies done. It was also conducted during a time in which the liberal-versus-conservative homosexual debate was not politically or socially relevant. I just looked for the link and I can’t find it, but I am sure you could google it with great ease.

I would like to add though that the debate between nature and nurture is still very mucky. There is no clear answer as to from where homosexuality comes. Rodney is right in that regard, but I think he is insinuating a greater success on nurture’s part than what is really shown in unbiased studies. Granted, it was a while back that I researched this stuff, so maybe there have been more developments.

In regards to the article and the “changing gays to straights” thing. While I do not know of any studies done regarding the success of these initiatives, personal experience tells, at least me, and I am sure many others, that they are not to be taken with full heart. I went to conservatory in Arizona. My school had a big Mormon population. I knew several homosexual Mormon men (although, many cut their ties with the church) who went through these types of programs. All of these men stated the programs were a sham. Further, I heard several, horrible stories about what goes on in some of these things. Now the 12 or 13 guys that I knew that went through this are hardly a decent, representative sample to discern the success rates of the types of things. However, it did shed some light on whether these programs are ethical and, quite frankly, moral. I am a member of the Catholic Church, a notorious opponent of the gays. However, even the Church acknowledges (to a certain degree) an inability for homosexual men and women to change. Instead, they beg a life of celibacy from their homosexual members. While I do not agree with the Church on many things, that is one thing I’ve always appreciated.

One last thing, this whole mission of the CoLDS to “change” their gay and lesbian members . . . I think this is simply irresponsible and improper. The last thing America needs is more closeted men and women in heterosexual marriages. I think all of us (who are gay) could enter into heterosexual marriages, indeed we could (if we could find a partner of the opposite sex). However, is this what we really want? Allegedly changed homosexual men and women fighting sexual urges that have been scientifically and naturally proven to be very difficult to ignore entering heterosexual marriage? I can’t think of a worser fate for the institution. I’d direct people to look up Bonnie Kaye. This woman has counseled tens of thousands of women that have found themselves in a marriage with a man with homosexual tendencies . . . and that’s just men.

No offense to Rodney, but I have some real problems with the CoLDS, not only for the above reasons. While I appreciate your ability to defend Hafen (I believe you when you say he is not hateful towards homosexuals), but I do think the “change” into heterosexuality he is promulgating is highly irresponsible to the institution of marriage. That is not something that I can respect in a church, treating one of its greatest sacraments so recklessly. It is one way in which I think the Catholic Church is far superior. Granted, the Catholic Church has a lot of updating that is desperately needed. But just a thought.

One last thing, what study did you read that indicated that Mormons live 10 years longer than homosexuals (or whatever statistic you referenced above)? I (and I am sure others) would like to see that, if you have a link.

Given the continued economic chaos, bigotries, and imperial ambitions that characterized American society, at some point we’ll have a chance to create fundamental change in this country. That’ll probably happen sooner rather than later. Then we can institute the same kinds of programs used by the French and Russian revolutionaries to neutralize cults and cult leaders.

• We can imprison lawbreakers, including scofflaw cult leaders who intrude in civil affairs.

• We can forbid any interference in civil institutions like education, partnering (including marriage) and medical services.

• We can totally suppress their near universal propensity for sexual abuse with a one strike sentence of life at hard labor.

• We can confiscate their wealth in land and real estate, art, gold and jewelry and secularize their schools and medical facilities without compensation. It’s a tradition that spans history from the Pharaohs, Henry the 8th, Ataturk and the ongoing completion of the Iranian Revolution.

In the meantime arguing with superstitious ridden louts is just venting. While that’s sometimes useful it doesn’t actually harm them, and harming them is what we should be doing. To the extent that someone buys into all that superstition and backwardness they’re deranged. They don’t hear our arguments or understand our rage. Another way to vent is to select a cult or cult leader in your area that makes a habit of interfering in civil and political affairs and who claims tax exemptions and let the IRS know what’s going on.

You may be able to get help for local civil libertarians and these kind of efforts are more successful the more people they involve.

1. Go to http://www.irs.gov

2. On the upper left activate the box for forms and publications.

3. Under the heading “Download forms and publications by:” activate the first item “Form and Publication Number (PDF)”

4. On that page locate and select Form 3949A on page 20. It’s entitled “Information Referral”.

5) Print it and fill it out with as much information as you can, appending news stories, eyewitness accounts, and etc.

6) Mail it to the address on page 2 of the form.

7) Follow up.

8) Don’t be a loner. Ask people you know to do the same.

Venting is human. Hitting them financially, divine.

That was very beautiful. Thank you for sharing it with me.

Why can’t we get a fucking Rapture already?

I hear that they are working very hard on that. In the Middle East.

We’d call it a nuclear nightmare.

They’ll call it the “Rapture”.

For a group that is screaming equality and tolerance, I tend to hear nothing but “my way or the highway”.

Umm, I think you have that backwards, Jack! It’s the church who is saying that, not the gays.

And yeah, to echo Vernon…Hello! You’re on a gay site.

What’s scary, is that people like you vote!

The real shame is that bigots like you and Rodney are under the impression that we’re living in a theocracy, and that your particular religion sets the moral standards for the entire nation. There would be no venom or vitriol directed towards you “people” if you had the common sense to stop being evil and let people live their lives the way they see fit. This especially holds true in situations where the fair and deserved outcome has literally zero impact on your life. If you want to be treated with respect, then you need to show some first. Voting against equality is as far from respectful as it gets.

And don’t think that because people might actually engage you on this topic that that means it’s deserving of debate. This isn’t a debate. It’s the act of holding up a mirror to show you “people” the reflection of your own wickedness. You choose whether to look at it or not (usually not) but that does not change what it is. You’re not only on the losing side of history, you’re on the losing side of humanity. For this, you all should be ashamed. Someday, you will be.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great comment!

Anyone who uses religion as an argument against human rights (or science!) is an idiot and deserves to be ignored.

There’s nothing polite about bigotry, and bigotry based on religion should be given no safe harbor anywhere.

This could be useful, actually.

A number of studies have concluded that being married decreases one’s risk for a variety of life-threatening/fatal illnesses, and effectively extends one’s projected life span.

Perhaps GLBTQ people could file a class-action lawsuit against all opponents of same-sex marriage, bringing together case law about corporate responsibility for environmental toxins they release, like asbestos, and research on the negative health consequences of being denied marriage.

Because these are the people, along with their fellow christians, that have made you wrong for 2,000 years. THEY are the problem. 70% of Americans believe we are “morally wrong” and they got that belief from religious teachings.

Would you rather have some news on how HRC still hasn’t changed any minds – after 28 years and $200 million? Or how GLAAD got upset with Bruno because the little baby was named OJ?

Gay Inc., has been completely ineffective in our fight for equality. If we want to be equal, we can’t be wrong. Religion made us wrong. Religion must stop that teaching or face some very real consequences – like fewer “believers.” The last time LGBTQ stood up to religion was when Anita Bryant’s career was ended.

Our community needs to have some courage and stand up to the negative branding by religion. I really don’t care if religion survives or not, but the belief that we’re wrong is not going to survive.

A majority of people are welcome to believe whatever they want about my sexuality, but frankly I’m the closest to it and a more accurate judge. And until Rodney is willing to let a majority vote on whether or not Mormonism is a particuarly silly religion (and he might be surprised at the large number of vehemently anti-mormon christians in the US), then he should clam up about letting majority opinion determine the validity of individual’s most private, personal feelings.

Rodney, one more thing: Look up the meaning and history of Collaborationism. Basically it means cooperating with enemy forces and complicity with oppressive and exploitive acts.

I would hate to have to atone for that when I arrive at the Pearly Gates.

By the way, I will be praying for you.

A polite bigot is still a bigot.

Mwah!

Rodney, your argument could just as easily be said that the Klan isn’t attacking blacks, they are just trying to get back to what they see as the traditional America when whites had the right to whip, beat and kill their slaves.

The Mormons funded anti gay marriage amendments, the Mormons have handed down instructions through the bishops that being gay is a mental disorder. The mormons through their services have told parents that if your child is gay, you can cast them out without guilt because they are evil and rotten inside and no longer the child they knew. Please don’t try to tell us that the mormon church is trying to preserve traditional marriage. We know ALL about the mormon’s viewpoint on traditional marriage and why the polygomous cults in Utah and northern AZ are not harrassed by the Mormon dominated police forces there. Nice try though.

most experts believe it’s a trait created in utero, as a product of the mother’s immune response.

Posted: Sep 21, 2009 at 4:14 pm “”
______________________________________

That isn’t true, one expert has hypothosized that. That isn’t “Most Experts”

An argument with these doofuses over whether your own sexual orientation was a “choice” or not is pointless. They’re not interested in facts or others’ experiences, they simply are interested in hating others. Any study that disproves their “deeply held beliefs” is simply ignored or derided as “antireligious propaganda.” Ignore them and/or laugh at them. Engaging them simply provides their egos with validation.

It’s very simple. I didn’t choose to be gay. I never made a choice.

I’m not lying, stupid, or being mislead by Satan.

I’m the expert on me, and I’m telling you that I never made a choice. The burden is completely upon you to prove otherwise.