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Mormons Mad at Big Love

biglovecastOur favorite queer-vague show, HBO’s Big Love is under attack by the Church of Latter Day Saints after word got around that next week’s episode will feature a scene simulating a sealing ceremony within a Mormon temple. The show, created by gay couple Mark V. Olsen and Will Scheffer, follows the life of a polygamous family living near Salt Lake City that tries to ‘mainstream’ with the established Mormon Church.

The LDS issued a statement about the upcoming temple ritual, saying:

“Before the first season of the HBO series ‘Big Love’ aired more than two years ago, the show’s creators and HBO executives assured the Church that the series wouldn’t be about Mormons. However, Internet references to ‘Big Love’ indicate that more and more Mormon themes are now being woven into the show and that the characters are often unsympathetic figures who come across as narrow and self-righteous. And according to TV Guide, it now seems the show’s writers are to depict what they understand to be sacred temple ceremonies. Certainly Church members are offended when their most sacred practices are misrepresented or presented without context or understanding.”

We’re fans of the show and have been following this season, which has been more critical of the Mormon Church than in the past. One of the major plot lines is about a letter that proves that the Church never intended to give up polygamy and the Mormon sister of one of the show’s wives all but screams, “I’ll get you my pretty plural wives!” whenever she shows up on the screen.

The Church doesn’t plan a boycott saying that “it would only generate the kind of controversy the media loves” and uses the gay marriage boycotts as an example of how ignoring criticism is the LDS’ latest tactic, saying:

“In recent months, some gay activists have barraged the media with accusations about “hateful” attitudes of Latter-day Saints in supporting Proposition 8 in California, which maintained the traditional definition of marriage. They even organized a protest march around the Salt Lake Temple. Again, the Church has refused to be goaded into a Mormons versus gays battle and has simply stated its position in tones that are reasonable and respectful. Meanwhile, missionary work and Church members in California remain as robust and vibrant as ever, and support for the Church has come from many unexpected quarters — including some former critics and other churches.”

That said, there’s not much sympathy here for the Mormon Church as of late (see: Prop. 8, the Common Ground Initiative, Chris Buttars for reasons why) and if communions, briss’s (what’s the plural of ‘briss’? Help!) and Wiccan marriages all get depicted on TV, it was really only a matter of time that Momon sealing ceremonies would show up as well. In fact, in trying to think of other groups that freak out about their secret ceremonies being revealed, we could only come up with the Masons and the Scientologists.

If the Mormon Church is looking itself to become a greater part of mainstream America, it’ll have to accept that being depicted by Hollywood comes with the territory. Just be thankful nobody’s making a Mormon version of Hudson Hawk—yet.

By:           Japhy Grant
On:           Mar 10, 2009
Tagged: ,
  • 159 Comments
    • L. Kirkland
      L. Kirkland

      The entire statement from the Church might be helpful to your readers: http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/the-publicity-dilemma

      Mar 10, 2009 at 12:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brad
      Brad

      “Certainly gay and lesbian Americans> are offended when their are misrepresented or presented without context or understanding.”

      Mar 10, 2009 at 12:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brad
      Brad

      I meant to say….

      Certainly (gay and lesbian Americans) are offended when their (relationships and families) are misrepresented or presented without context or understanding.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 12:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Adam
      Adam

      I know so many people that are so curious about what goes on in Mormon temple ceremonies since they are so “secret”. There are two reasons for this: 1) the ceremonies are really, really, really weird. I wouldn’t say scary as it’s all symbolic and something akin to a play, but odd none-the-less. I know several “good” mormons who have seen these, understanding both the context and meaning and they still left thinking they were very odd. If you want to know what they are, just google Masonic initiation ceremony and it’s almost identially. Their founder Joseph Smith became a free Mason a few months before he invented these temple ceremonies and I’d say he borrowed heavily from them, but if you compare them side by side it’s more like plagiarism.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 12:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • David
      David

      The plural of ‘bris’ is ‘brises’ and It only has one s. :P

      Mar 10, 2009 at 12:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chino
      Chino

      Recalling my first trip to the temple, I doubt there’s any context in which I could understand that experience in a positive light. That said, I accept that there are apparently many faithful LDS who can and do. I wonder if they’d be willing to answer this question: is there any context in which a secular portrayal of your temple garb or ceremonies would not amount to desecration in your view?

      Mar 10, 2009 at 1:13 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darth Paul
      Darth Paul

      @Brad: And that should compel us to do what, exactly, with regard to this excellent show? Having lived in Utah, I can verify that there are plenty of heretical LDSers out there that live secret lives. To impugn this show based on the popular illusion that all LDSers are perfect, charming citizens who do no wrong is laugable.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 1:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Darth Paul
      Darth Paul

      Also, I don’t speak that HORRIBLE language, Yiddish, but the Hebrew for brit (T-T-T!) is brit milot.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 1:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • andy_d
      andy_d

      @Darth Paul: Are you aware that there are TWO versions of tav? The first has a dot in the middle which corresponds to the “T” sound. The other, without the dot, corresponds to an “S” sound, and is actually called “sav”. Common usage of the letter appears to have been lost through the use of “B’li nikudot” (without dots).

      Also, being a Jew of european descent, I feel it is insensitive, at the least, to disparage ANY language with as rich and varied a history as Yiddish (Literally “Jewish”).

      Fianlly, if you are referring to the ritual named in the Torah – the “Pentateuch” or “Five books of Moses” – it is actually ARAMAIC. Hebrew, as we know it today, is actually a relatively modern language.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 1:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • petted
      petted

      I think the Mormons forgot their activities in New Mexico and Illinois

      Mar 10, 2009 at 1:44 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      Only a Cult holds it’s ceremonies to be secretive.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 1:56 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Cam
      Cam

      @Brad:

      this show is penned by people with a huge knowledge of the LDS church and living as a mormon. All of my mormon friends say they are shocked by the intimate details that this show gets right. the church isn’t pissed because they are being misrepresented, they are upset because of how accurate the show is.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 1:58 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      I just hope they perform the pre 1990 ceremony where they do the blood oaths and pantomime slitting their throat from ear to ear and disemboweling themselves. God love it.
      P.S. Go fu#k yourselves Mormons!

      Mar 10, 2009 at 2:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mom
      Mom

      @Cam: And you seem to know the accuracy why again? Who are you to call “Big Love” and the entire HBO production staff “ACCURATE” in there recent mockery of the LDS religion? Oh and by the way if you had so many “Mormon” friends you would also know that they don’t refer to themselves as “Mormons” but as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Check those facts there buddy! Better yet go talk to the missionaries because until you do that, no one should take your “hear say” jargon and accept it as fact, you are full of it. You’re scared that the LDS religion has it correct and you will soon be in trouble.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 2:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • John
      John

      Showing Mormon rituals goes against all common decency. It doesn’t matter if we think the Mormon church is wrong…it doesn’t matter if they got the rituals from the Masons. Why do we have to belittle something that someone else considers sacred? Sure, they voted for Prop 8, but it’s not because they hate us…it’s because they disagree with us on this point. It was on the ballot…people have the American right to vote however they want, but promoting bigotry makes us hypocrites. I’m ashamed of most of the comments here.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 2:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B-Ashamed
      B-Ashamed

      @B: Your skill at taking something completely out of context so as to lend confusion to the discussion is uncanny!

      Mar 10, 2009 at 2:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jenny
      Jenny

      It is so funny how many of the gay/lesbian population scream and cry when they are misunderstood, misrepresented or mistreated. However, there is no problem with ridiculing and disrespecting people with alternative beliefs and lifestyles. The ceremonies that occur in Mormon temples are not secret. In fact, I believe they open up their temples to the public when they are first built. I do have a respect for things that are private and sacred. Why make public something that many may not understand and allow it to be trashed and mocked. It is the same concept. If you truly study the history of religion you will find that there are many traditions and teachings that they continue to follow. Bottomline, you demand respect and tolerance for your lifestyle and way of living, that is all that these people seek too.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 2:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jenny
      Jenny

      @John: That was very well said and an obvious point that so many people are missing.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 2:40 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Former Mormon
      Former Mormon

      Hah! That’s so funny because a vast majority of Mormons are “narrow and self-righteous.” I grew up as a Mormon in Sandy, Utah – where they live – and I find that a lot of the portrayal of Utah Mormon’s is dead on – even if a lot of things on the show aren’t quite accurate…This should be interesting…

      Mar 10, 2009 at 2:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ky
      Ky

      Portraying practices sacred to any religion in the way that HBO plans on portraying the practices of Mormons, is wrong.

      Presenting information in an inaccurate light before an audience of uninformed people is quite appauling.

      HBO intends to present things about the Mormon church in a “controversial” “weird” “abstract” “to be questioned” “secret” way. As if to provoke viewers into a dislike, or oddity of the mormon religion. Instead of recognizing, that ceremonies and services practiced by the mormons are sacred to them, and holy. Not to be cast about and thrown around for question.

      People are stupid, in plain terms. It’s hypocritical of the Gay community to shut down complaints, offenses, and etc from members of the LDS religion, when ALL the Gay community does is complain, and be offended, and etc.

      If anyone wanted to know TRUTHS presented in the CORRECT light about the Mormon church, it is not a SECRET- you can go right onto the church’s website, http://www.lds.org .

      Nothing is “secret” there are just some things about the religion that are SACRED.

      As for “ex-mormons” posting around here, Shame on you. That’s so small of you, and so pathetic. Good luck.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 3:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      I am a big fan of the show, it is just really good. That being said the mormon church spent considerable time and money depriving American citizens of their rights last year. I think it is stupefying that they are now asking for sensitivity for their rituals and for people to RESPECT THEIR WAY OF LIFE. Interesting because not only do they not respect other people’s ways of life but they will go to war (metaphorically speaking) against other people’s way of life.I try to be tolerant of others but I feel like Mormons deserve as much sensitivity as they show others which isn’t much.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 3:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RichardR
      RichardR

      Hey, Queerty readers, we suddenly have a lot of visitors on this matter! Welcome Mom, John, Jenny, and Ky!

      Mar 10, 2009 at 3:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark (another one)
      Mark (another one)

      After reading the comments from Mom, Ky, Jenny, John and B-Ashamed, I wondurin’ if the LDS Church has members troll blogs they perceive as a threat.

      Sorry folks, but whatever you may call your organization, it IS a cult!

      I saw first hand a few years back while in the area for Gay Ski Week in Park City. A buddy and I decided to check out SLC and take a day off boarding. We thought it would be cool to see the tabernacle and check out the Genelogy library. Little did we know what kind of trippy experience was in store for us.

      First we were by two “sisters” as we entered the grounds who offered to give us a “tour”. Within five minutes we knew they had one motive…. to get us to join the organization. Suffice it to say, after hearing about the LDS, combined with the tour of the statue dedicated to seagulls and the ending in a oval room with a larger-than-life talking Jesus (complete with light show), it was with great pleasure that we let them in on our sexuality and politely bolted for the door.

      But, the best came across the street at the library, where upon entering, we were greeted by lady behind the desk who proudly claimed that visitors have actually traced their ancestory back to Adam and Eve. How we kept from laughing I’m not sure, but we sat through the library orientation and made our way into the library to do some research.

      With all the LDS nutiness aside, I did find more about my family in fifteen minutes than any other family member ever knew. Kudos for that part.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 3:29 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mark (another one)
      Mark (another one)

      PS – sorry for the lousy grammar and missing words in my comment above… just wanted share my experience before dashing out.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 3:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Edd
      Edd

      the church “has simply stated its position in tones that are reasonable and respectful” yeah if paying millions of dollars to push your religious agenda into the public realm, affecting the live and rights of millions of people is now considered respectful then ok.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 3:38 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Brian
      Brian

      I think it’s ridiculous for the mormon trolls here (sorry, Mom, I mean the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints trolls) here to pretend they are just regular Queerty readers. Stop referring to Mormons as “they”, it is so obvious you are mormon and not gay. Just as in the Prop 8 debate, mormons hide behind a veil of secrecy. Just be honest about your anti-gay arguments, and be honest about who you are here, isn’t honesty considered a virtue by mormons? It is by most religions.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 3:43 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • zoe
      zoe

      another group that doesn’t like the exposure of their sacred cultural traditions are Native Americans – though it is increasingly open, many elders do not wish the general public to know and manipulate what their ceremonies mean to them.

      the word “sacred” is meaningful for a reason, no?

      or does nothing have any value as sacred anymore?

      Mar 10, 2009 at 3:46 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal

      “that the characters are often unsympathetic figures who come across as narrow and self-righteous. “ummmm ,prop8 anyone??sounds like em alright lol

      Mar 10, 2009 at 3:47 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      I think sticking to the facts is all that is necessary to eviscerate the mormons looking for sensitivity argument. That being said I think calling people trolls and personally insulting them does not make the point that mormons have spent a lot of time and ridiculous sums of money to attack the lives and rights of certain groups of people therefore there requests for sensitivity are hypocritical.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 4:10 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal

      @John: lets have a vote on their belief,lives.OH RIGHT,NO ONE GOT THAT CHANCE!!!they aint innocent as a wise person once said(judge judy) don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining!!

      Mar 10, 2009 at 4:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @zoe: People have less tolerance for what is sacred to people who not only don’t respect what is sacred to others but attack their right to basic equality under the law.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 4:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal

      @Jenny: first and foremost mormans can do whatever they please as long as they dont hurt anyone,but THEY stepped over the line when they made it their business to enter our homes and choose whats our rights and whats not our rights.they did it first,remember that!!!!if they just did their own thing i doubt no gay person would give a rats arse.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 4:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal

      @Jenny: ..u wanna be up in our business??we gonna be up in yours!!!!

      Mar 10, 2009 at 4:32 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      To hell with calling them Latter Day Saints, Fu@king Assholes is much more accurate.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 5:00 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Helaman
      Helaman

      Since no one knows exactly what will be depicted on the show (except HBO) how about we wait to see what it looks like. I went through the Mormon (and I always considered myself a Mormon – see Mormon.org and and tell me what you get) endowment ceremony pre-1990 so I’ll know how accurate it is. But if they do the bloody oaths and throat slitting penalties then you’ll have all post-1990 Mormons crying that it’s not accurate so heads up. There’s a huge difference and honest members will not deny this. But maybe they’ll just portray the sealing ceremony at the altar with the eternal mirrors and the Masonic costumes. The temples are open to the public before being dedicated so anyone off the street can see what the celestial room looks like. And if you want to read about the “play” then Google it; it’s all there both pre and post 1990. So it’s not “secret” even if you consider it “sacred.” One thing that is NOT accurate is the blue apron. It’s actually day glow green. I have mine right here. Now in regard to upsetting Mormons how do you think it feels for the Catholics to be called the “Whore of Babylon” in many official sources and teaching material. That’s hardly respectful to more than 1 billion Catholics. I look forward to discussing after this airs.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 5:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      @John: very well spoken. While I agree with a lot of the posters that the Mormon church should expose more of their ceremony etc. I do agree with you though that it shouldn’t be done by an outsider out of spite. In the gay community it is universally agreed that just about the worst thing you can do is out someone (I’ve been outed before… it really sucked). If the LDS Church wants to be accepted as a mainstream religion they will have to be open and transparent as most other mainstream religions are.
      One thing I will say though about Big Love is that with the exception of outing the Temple ceremony I know many Mormons outside of Utah who agree with its presentation of Utah Mormons… and living in Utah and being a former Mormon there is no love lost between me and the church… so I do find it hard to criticize the show… but in this case, I still need to criticize it.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 5:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      @ Helaman,

      Good luck finding an honest Mormon though. Most will lie through their teeth about the blood penalties. I’m sure you’re more than familiar with “Lying for the Lard” as they would say in Utah County.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 5:15 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Helaman
      Helaman

      @B: Will you settle for an honest inactive Mormon? I’ve been through temples many times and I can attest to how accurate it is once I see it. “Lying for the Lard” (“Some things that are true are not very useful” – Boyd K. Packer) is not something that I knowingly participated in but seeing others doing certainly didn’t help my “testimony.”

      Mar 10, 2009 at 5:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • B
      B

      @ Helaman, Settled. Ahh Boyd K. Packer, what a closet homo there. Gail Ruzicka as well. Paul H. Dunn was the one that really got me questioning. Steve Benson sealed the deal… or was it the Salamander letter, whatever, I’m just grateful to be out.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 5:35 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • ajarizona
      ajarizona

      Nice job Tom Hanks

      You have now jopined the ranks of Maplethorpe who place a crucifix in a glass of urine and called it art. Could the bullwhip be far behind?

      This sacreligious behavior states more about them than it does the Mormons. Classless and disrespetful. Remember, what goes around will indeed come around.

      This will indeed be the end of Hanks career.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 7:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      Why would I ask a Mormon what the missionary position is?

      It’s obviously performed through a tiny slit in their garments.

      PS Visit http://postmormon.org for hope in a future devoid of bigotry and ignorance.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 7:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Bryan
      Bryan

      Wow! All this arguing over an episode that hasn’t even aired yet.

      I unfortunately don’t have HBO, but I’ve rented the first season of Big Love on DVD. I rather enjoyed it, and quickly noticed that the script-writers did their homework. They have almost all the “Mormon jargon” down to a T. They have some novel ones too, but I just chalk that up to being Fundie Mormon lingo.

      We have to remember folks, this show is first and foremost about NON-LDS polygamists who come from a fundamentalist Mormon background. Many things in the show will remind viewers of Mormonism because these folks are from a Mormon heritage (polygamists in Utah surely aren’t Muslim!).

      As far as the penalties, 5 points of fellowship, and that annoying “Pay Lay Ale” chant, if they ARE depicted in the show, that doesn’t necessarily mean that HBO is trying to make fun of or misrepresent the LDS. The Fundie Mormons, as far as I know, have retained most (if not all) of the historic Mormon doctrines and practices. Just because LDS inc altered the endowment in 1990 doesn’t mean all the FLDS (and similar groups) followed suit, and this show is about FUNDIE MORMONS. It would be like saying a depiction of Catholic ritual was actually misrepresenting Protestants. The latter came from the former.

      And finally, Mormons: Please don’t get your garments in a bunch. I know you active members have not even bothered seeing the show. The show does a great job distinguishing between the LDS and the renegade sects.

      ~Former Mormon.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 7:21 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RENEE
      RENEE

      @John: Thank you John I think you said it all. I wish people of all faiths and races could think this way. We need to show respect even when we don’t share the same views.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 7:51 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @ajarizona: Big Love treats mormonism with a lot respect. All the characters are mormon on this show some are shown in a good light some in a bad light, even among the radical fundamentalists there are some characters that are very positive. So before you speak out of ignorance watch the show (it is very clear from your comments that you haven’t). What people have a problem with is that mormons are now calling for tolerance when Nov.4th they proved how horribly intolerant they are. To be clear I am a straight christian and I find the actions of mormons in their persecutions of gay people SHAMEFUL.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 7:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Alex
      Alex

      @Darth Paul: I don’t think that’s right. Brit milah means the covenant of circumcision, so the word milah in Hebrew serves as an adjective modifying the word brit. So the plural would be britei milah. Of course, since the word bris can be said to have entered the English language, a standard English pluralization would probably be best.

      @andy_d: Also wrong. The Torah/first five books of the Hebrew Bible is written in Hebrew. It is ancient (or Biblical) Hebrew, but it is Hebrew, not Aramaic. The characters would have spoken Aramaic, at least in their everyday lives, but it is not the same language (a good way to spot Aramaic is that lots of words end in aleph). Modern Hebrew is modern, but it descends directly from the words of the Bible. And while Paul may have been a bit insensitive, the word bris in English probably did come from Yiddish (which more Jewish would have spoken than Hebrew), and the relationship between Jews and Yiddish has been a long and complicated one.

      Everyone else, sorry for the digression. My knowledge of Mormonism is somewhat less extensive. Um…Deseret?

      Mar 10, 2009 at 8:37 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • CondeNasty
      CondeNasty

      The mormons need to get over themselves. Depictions in entertainment are usually not fully accurate. I’m a burly homo that looks like a trucker from Staten Island, but I grew up thinking I had to be a mincing chef like Jack Tripper or a leather guy from the Blue Oyster Bar in all those Police Academy movies…. Get over it LDS suckas!!!

      Mar 10, 2009 at 8:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • gandy
      gandy

      I am a card carrying, temple going, garment wearing, T totaling mormon. Have been for 26 years and it has brought me a great deal of peace and happiness. Many folks don’t have what it takes to toe the line of an organization like this. OK for them. I doubt we will be much worse or better off than them when this life is over. But to the point, I love Big Love. It has been almost accurate all along (I know polygs too). They do show normal LDS folks about 10% more self righteous and sanctimonious than they actually are. But even those folks will go to great lengths to do anything to help out a neighbor in need, gay or not. I am looking forward to watching this episode with my kids that have not yet had a chance to go to the temple. This will be a treat. The ceremony is highly symbolic and ritualistic. It is always accompanied by a spiritual buzz that you can only get in the temple. Too bad all the viewers won’t have a chance to experience that. All in all, this episode is sure to cause a good uptick in missionary conversions. Families are forever whether you want to believe it or not. And that is what everything we do in life is geared toward fostering and nurturing and protecting. The only things you get to take with you are your family relationships and any particles of wisdom that might have stuck to your shoe.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 8:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal

      @RENEE: “We need to show respect ” LMAO!!! oh where were and your words u when the mormans were funding hate??

      Mar 10, 2009 at 9:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal

      We need to show respect ” LMAO!!! oh where were you and your words u when the mormans were funding hate??@RENEE:

      Mar 10, 2009 at 9:20 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @John:
      @Jenny:
      @Ky:
      @Mike:
      @RENEE:
      @Mom:

      “Showing Mormon rituals goes against all common decency.”

      And taking away the civil-rights of a minority doesn’t?

      Show respect for people who show no respect for us?

      Kiss my ass!

      Mar 10, 2009 at 9:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal

      @gandy: mormans dont have monopoly on family,get over yourselves

      Mar 10, 2009 at 9:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Mormons.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 9:54 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Everyone should actually watch it.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 10:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sebbe
      Sebbe

      I’ve watched this show although not this season, it has always been about Mormons WTF are they talking about.

      Mar 10, 2009 at 10:28 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ger
      Ger

      Are Mormons Claymates, too?

      Mar 11, 2009 at 12:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @sal: With all respect, I don’t think gandy was saying that at all. What s/he(?) said about what really matters in life is the absolute truth.

      @gandy: your words are a breath or fresh air in here. Thanks, and I enjoy the show too. I especially like that there are important things shown which aren’t always spoken about (the cremation, for example). I am looking forward to seeing this episode.

      I suppose the big deal here is people who feel offended about the ceremony being shown (although that horse got out of the barn long ago). Mormonism has been getting a bad rep in the media and arts since long before that Sherlock Holmes book. But as Heleman said, other churches like the Catholics have received (and given, IMHO) much worse.

      And Helaman, your Packer quote reminded me of another good one by Winston Churchill (off topic a bit):
      “Sometimes the truth is so important that it must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies”.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 12:39 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Phoenix (Formerly and AngerTwink, now just Angry)
      Phoenix (Formerly and AngerTwink, now just Angry)

      Oh, yes, Poor dear Mormons, er pardon me ‘Saints’. They’re so sooo very wronged.

      Pffft. Sorry chickens, my mother (who’s not Mormon) grew up around Short Creek (you folks know what I’m talking about) and if “Big Love” doesn’t get it right, it’s only because it’s watered down. So don’t give us any crapola about this TV show sluring The Church Of Latter Day Saints. The mainstream Mormons have turned a blind eye to worse crap “break away” sects have done in real life than what’s shown up on “Big Love”. And what’s worse the main stream has actually protected them from prosecution or reform! For those who don’t believe me, crack open and read ‘Under The Banner Of Heaven’ or ‘Gods Brothel’

      I’ll leave you Mor(m)ons with some pictures of a few of Warren Jeffs lovely brides to look at while you dream up reasons to deny consenting adults the right to marry.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 1:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mister C
      Mister C

      What the fuck they’re mad about? This show has been on about 3 yrs now and their now complaining.
      Good for their ass next time stay out the LGBTQ’s business!

      Mar 11, 2009 at 1:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Kristy
      Kristy

      @Bryan:

      Bryan, you are wicked-awesome. Your comment is the best here by far. Thank you for a logical, rational opinion.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 1:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • rick
      rick

      @Mister C: Exactly! Especially since the show makes mormons and mormonism about 90% good. Which Nov. 4th show us is not exactly true.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 1:54 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      I probably shouldn’t do this, but you kids aren’t going to offend anyone here. The members and those familiar with the church who are posting here seem to be pretty sympathetic to the show, and taking this in stride. You’re preaching to the sort-of-converted.

      If you actually want to ruffle some feathers perhaps you should drop in on some sites where people are actually looking to be offended:

      http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b103779_hbo_defends_big_loves_glimpse_behind.html

      Play nice now.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 2:05 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      Not so fast Gandy.

      Read Mark 3:31-35. And before you accuse me of taking a quote out of context, please realize that many, if not most, scholars agree that this verse represents an authentic saying of Jesus of Nazareth. To boot, it comes from what is generally held as the first Gospel.

      It goes:

      Then his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside, they sent to him and called him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him; and they said to him, ‘Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside, asking for you.’ 33 And he replied, ‘Who are my mother and my brothers?’ 34 And looking at those who sat around him, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.’

      Gandy…Jesus didn’t believe relatives make a family. A family is, as Jesus would say, “whoever does the will of God.”

      Mar 11, 2009 at 2:14 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      Hmm.. if that link doesn’t work:
      http://ca.eonline.com/uberblog/b103780_HBO_Defends__lt_i_gt_Big_Love_lt__i_gt__s_Glimpse_Behind_Mormon_Temple_Walls.html

      Mar 11, 2009 at 2:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @kevin (not that one): You’re right, and though I can’t speak for Gandy that’s how I interpret the words. Family means not just blood family but our chosen family.
      The only thing that matters at the end of life is how we have grown and the lives we have touched.
      If family didn’t mean anything to us why does anyone even care about proposition 8. The fight for our equality has everything to do with family – just not some peoples’ narrow definition of it.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 2:26 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      …after all, even straight people aren’t related by blood to their partners. They choose to become family, and it’s no different for any of us.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 2:31 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Prop 8 and the mormons who fundraised sponsored and voted for it affect men women and yes CHILDREN. Watch this ( you may need a tissue)

      Mar 11, 2009 at 2:52 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • joe123
      joe123

      It’s all about hate. It’s all about revenge. Simply read the comments here. It is no surprise to me. If our American culture accepts the desecration of Christian holy and sacred relgious leaders..(remember the “art” of Jesus or Mary in a tank or urine or feces, or sculptures of John the Baptist pleasuring himself), do you think it will have the conscience to not desecrate that which is sacred and holy to Mormons? Right. I have no respect at all for Tom Hanks and the other people responsible for this show. The only consolation is that only about 0.5% of America will see the show (1.5 million out of 300 million).

      Mar 11, 2009 at 4:28 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      @Charles J. Mueller:

      Charles, you are right, Mormons (in general, not all of them) are not decent people… I refuse though to do as you would suggest and sink to their level. An eye for an eye and the world goes blind… one side has to rise up and be better men/women… sense the Mormons won’t we’ll have to.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 6:18 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @joe123:

      No, Joe123. It’s not about revenge.

      It’s about standing up to them, instead of turning the other cheek so that they can slap that one too and saying…”Stop right there…that’s as far as you go, cause if you don’t, there is gonna be a problem and you are not going to like the solution.”

      So you go right on ahead protecting the people who are looking to kick your ass, if you want, but the rest of us will fight back.

      And if that is not ok with you, well then, turn the other cheek!

      Mar 11, 2009 at 7:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @Mike:

      “one side has to rise up and be better men/women… sense the Mormons won’t we’ll have to.”

      Yeah, pity that we didn’t think that way when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and Hitler began to invade all of his neighboring countries.

      It was really stupid of us to sink to their level.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 7:50 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      @Charles J. Mueller:
      “Yeah, pity that we didn’t think that way when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and Hitler began to invade all of his neighboring countries.”
      Never did I say it was inappropriate to defend against an aggressor. You’re comparing apples to oranges though. Japan and Germany were going after territory and resources, the Mormons are going after hearts and minds. The way you defend territory and resources is indeed through force, the way you defend against those trying to win over hearts and minds is to win over hearts and minds yourself… and you do that by proving you are the better people that are worth following. Martin Luther King Jr. understood that, which is why African Americans now have all the same rights and privileges as whites (at least legally). Rising up and proving yourself to be the better men and women takes time and effort and hardship, but it has been proven to work.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 10:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Mike: I agree with you completely wining hearts and minds comes through exemplary behavior and hard work. People became energized when they saw dignified people marching for their rights and being firehosed by hateful police and have dogs sicked on them. White people poured into buses in the north and went down south to aid in the civil rights movement and helped make it’s success possible. The reason the tide of public opinion is turning (and it is it is a statistical fact) is that the general public is becoming increasingly uncomfortable watching a small minority of Americans who have done no harm to anyone be targeted politically and personally for no good reason.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 11:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Pheefs
      Pheefs

      Any organization (religious or otherwise) that complains against coverage in the news or portrayals in entertainment media, with the argument of “respect our secrets” should never ever be trusted.
      If society is not welcome to observe and fictionalize and even make fun of whatever you are up to, then NO you are not going to get my trust nor my respect.

      And ummm… poor Hudson Hawk, that movie gets such a bad rep.

      :)

      Mar 11, 2009 at 12:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      I just tickles me pink to think of all of the offended Mormons who are coming to this very queer forum to voice their opinions that they are in someway defamed.

      You mean, like the way you Mormons defamed every single lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered person in the effort to write discrimination into the California Constitution? You mean like the endless television, print, online, and radio advertisements that were akin to anti-gay blood libel? Using school children as human shields for hate? Lies and hate propaganda sponsored by the Mormons claiming LGBTs were out to oppress religious groups?

      Face it: Some of you Mormons are 100% bankrupt morally and ethically. How dare you come on here and complain about Big Love, you Pharisees! You loud gongs and clanging cymbals!

      Mar 11, 2009 at 1:02 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @Mike:

      Puleeeeze, spare me of the Martin Luther King speil.

      These fuckers stole our rights.

      Now, we are supposed kiss their asses to get them back.

      Hearts and minds, my ass. These people have neither.

      They are a bunch of heartless bastards.

      How the fuck can you defend these people and have the balls to tell us to be nice to them after what they did to us?

      Are you whacked out on weed or something?

      Mar 11, 2009 at 4:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Jason
      Jason

      Three Words: Fuck The Mormons

      You reap what you sow, you sonsabitches!

      Mar 11, 2009 at 4:25 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Mike: I agree a calm cool head is productive to political action just hating doesn’t make change. Worked for the every significant civil rights movement so far no one got their rights out-hating their oppressors.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 4:41 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @Phoenix (Formerly and AngerTwink, now just Angry): love that comment!!!

      Mar 11, 2009 at 5:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @strumpetwindsock: “If you actually want to ruffle some feathers” bite me!!! “ruffle some feathers”thats the mormons job(prop8)

      Mar 11, 2009 at 5:07 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @Mike: “the Mormons are going after hearts and minds.” HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!Well sign me up for that kinda lovin !!!(p.s. that reminds me ,Rihanna leave him,that aint love)

      Mar 11, 2009 at 5:19 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal [Different person #1 using similar name]

      @Mike: its was not just Martin luther king (fantastic) contribution.it was a fearless court that even in a time where the majority was against em they allowed equality in schools(take a hint supreme court on prop8) and a ballzy president (take a hint Obama)who sent military (military we cant serve openly in,take a hint too u guys)to protect these kids from the majority.martin luther vision alone it would of taken longer,think of all my black ancestors who, thanks to people(supreme court,president) who realized that even with great opposition the blacks deserved NEEDED a decent life NOW(then in the 1950),have been lifted to higher heights thanks to that quick change…..so,be gone!!!i’m offended with u!!!Gays are here NOW!!!! Their lives are being affected NOW!!!!!!CHANGE IS NEEDED NOW!!!!!!!

      Mar 11, 2009 at 5:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      @Charles J. Mueller:
      Charles, there is no love lost between me and the LDS church… I had to resign to avoid excommunication, I saw one of my friends go through an excommunication, I live in Utah, I see the hatred and bigotry from a large number of Mormons. That said, I know quite a few people who are Mormons who are good kind hearted people, who by the way opposed Prop 8. For us to start making blanket statements about all Mormons, not separating the good from the bad (which, yes there are good Mormons) we become just as bigoted as the bigots we claim to be struggling against.
      Oh, and we don’t need to win the hearts and minds of the Mormon church, we need to win the hearts and minds of the hundreds of millions who AREN’T Mormon (I should say, bigots, because not all Mormons are bigots, and not all bigots are Mormon) who are deciding which side to support.
      You know what though, it’s clear that you’re full of hatred and bigotry, and I can only hope that with time that will change. Life’s to short to be filled with hate.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 6:01 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • BobP
      BobP

      So many mormons on the site today. I love the way they’re so protective of their mumbo-jumbo. How ridiculous they are, scolding us. All the crap you believe in was made up, people. Gay people will never forget what you have done, not only with Prop 8, but all the other pro-Gay legislation that you have quietly fought all these years. You have been found out and exposed and you don’t like it one bit.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 6:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @Mike:

      “not all Mormons are bigots, and not all bigots are Mormon”

      Of course. Now, why didn’t I realize that?

      After all, not all Klu Klux Klansman are racist and not all racists are Klu Klux Klansman

      Mar 11, 2009 at 8:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      I was at Camp courage in Fresno (an activist training for people looking to repeal prop8) and there were all kinds of people there including mormons who are disgusted by their church and church money spent on bigotry. It is silly to think each and every man woman and child of a particular religion are responsible for what the leadership and SOME of it’s members do.If there are mormon people here and you don’t support bigotry then do something! Tell your church, your other parishioners, and donate money to campaigns looking to repeal these hateful discriminatory laws. It is not personally your fault but because of your church you do have a responsibility to help

      Mar 11, 2009 at 8:39 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      “@Mike: I agree a calm cool head is productive to political action just hating doesn’t make change. Worked for the every significant civil rights movement so far no one got their rights out-hating their oppressors.”

      From Wikipedia. Watts Riots. 1965

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Riots

      From Wordbook.

      http://www.worldbook.com/wb/Students?content_spotlight/aajourney/civilrights

      Many riots erupted in U.S. cities during the 1960’s, largely because of the economic deprivation and social injustices suffered by ghetto blacks. They included those in the Watts section of Los Angeles in 1965, in Detroit and Newark in 1967, and in Cleveland in 1968. The Detroit riot was the most violent. It led to 43 deaths and property damage of about $45 million.

      Very dignified. Very cool. Indeed! Shows ya what keeping a calm, cool head can do.

      And then there was a little thing called The 1964 Civil Rights Act. Something to do with the Supreme Court of the United States of America….

      http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAcivil64.htm

      What an amazing correlation between people who pick out what they choose to believe in the bible and ignore the rest to make their point and those who pick out what they choose to believe in their history books and ignore the rest to make their point.

      Ah yes. Good ole Martin Luther King. Kept his cool and done it all by his calm, dignified self.

      Works like a charm. Every time.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 9:06 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      If look at the communities where people marched and organized change happened if you look at communities where people rioted they remained marginalized. Anyone been to watts recently? Nothing ever got better there just worse and let’s look at Detroit where the average home today sells for just 18,000. Let’s loom at Georgia’s largest city the seat of so much dignified marching and organizing. It is in the top three cities in the world for black wealth, number of black professionals, college degrees, and home ownership.Thanks for making my case for me.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 9:16 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      “It is not personally your fault but because of your church you do have a responsibility to help”

      Then exactly whose fault is it? Sounds like a huge cop-out to me.

      If our government is of the people, for the people and by the people, then is not each and every one of us responsible for what our government does?

      And by that same token, if a religion/Church is of those people, by those people and for those people, then is not each and every one of those people responsible for what their religion/Church does?

      Mar 11, 2009 at 9:17 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      I have a right to my opinion and some of us have different ideas of responsibility than others.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 9:18 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      Delusion if a horrible affliction.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 9:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      I’m not going to get into an argument. We obviously think differently let’s leave it at that I have seen how vicious you can get if some does not agree with you. I will post my opinion but I have learned who one can and can’t have a dialogue with on this site.Thanks and no thanks.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 9:22 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @sal:

      No need to get catty… by all means carry on getting angry at the wall if you want.

      It’s just that given the tone of some of this discussion, some people might ALSO want to voice your anger to those who frequent sites that aren’t so gay-positive (I did).

      As I said, most of the Mormons and religious apologists (including me) who have spoken on this thread don’t seem too offended by the Big Love, nor even the argument that the Church overstepped its bounds by supporting Prop 8, so a lot of this very understandable anger could be better directed, IMHO.

      But again, it’s just a friendly suggestion.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 10:31 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      “I will post my opinion but I have learned who one can and can’t have a dialogue with on this site.”

      And I will post my opinion, even if it does differ from yours.

      Freedom of speech. It’s such a nice idea.

      Mar 11, 2009 at 10:53 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Awesome!

      Mar 11, 2009 at 10:57 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      “I have seen how vicious you can get if some does not agree with you.”

      Vicious?

      God, now the straight lady is even stealing our own buzz words.

      Is there nothing left in the gay world that is sacred?

      Mar 11, 2009 at 11:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Sebbe
      Sebbe

      @Charles J. Mueller – the str8s are allowed to use vicious, but not vindictive! LOL

      Mar 11, 2009 at 11:30 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @Sebbe:

      LOL

      Mar 11, 2009 at 11:33 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Mike
      Mike

      Charles, please tell me you aren’t oblivious to your own hypocrisy. You complain about people being bigoted against you, then go on to spout your own form of bigotry.
      And please don’t try to give me a history lesson, I know about the race riots, I never said they didn’t happen, just that they were not what moved along the civil rights movement… if nothing else they set the movement back. Let’s be honest, if you were living during the 60s and 70s and you were on the fence on whether or not blacks should be given equal rights and then you saw the race riots, you would no longer be on the fence, you’d probably start thinking “damn, those people really are the savages people are claiming them to be”. You’d be right too, the rioters were savages, not because they are black, but because they are rioters, but a lot of people would not be able to distinguish that.
      If what you want is for the majority of people to think that gays are a bigoted and violent group, that want nothing more than to harm those who disagree… if you want every right to be earned at the cost of ever increasing bitterness from the general public… please do continue as you are doing.
      If however you want to be accepted as being a complete person, worthy of being equal, then you must rise above the bigotry and hatred and prove that you are indeed worthy of being equal.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 12:24 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @Mike:

      “if you were living during the 60s and 70s”

      But, I was, Blanche. I was.

      I was also living at the time of Stonewall and was there while it was happening.

      Now tell me that the trans people who were rioting and throwing molotov cocktails at New York’s finest who had been fucking over gays for years before that happened were, how did you put it…savages?

      I hope the black community, as well as the trans community climb all over your bigoted ass for that comment.

      And you have the unmitigated gall to tell me what I must do in order to accepted as being a complete person, worth of being equal?

      Sieg Heil and click heels much, do you?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 12:35 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Mike: Trust me some people can’t and don’t want to rise above bigotry and hatred and they want to revel in it. They will usually get really mad if you disagree with them. Some people would rather sit around telling others to riot and hate it is not a point of view that can be reasoned with it is point of view that just wants to fight, insult, and cause trouble.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 12:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Mike: As a black person it is completely obvious there was nothing racist about your comments.I think your statements are admirable but different people speak different languages. Taking the high road is seen as silly or weak to people who have never taken it.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 12:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      And there are some people on this site who are always making reference to some people on this site.

      Apparently, that has something to do with something.

      “@Mike: As a black person it is completely obvious there was nothing racist about your comments.”

      There are some people on this site, who attack others for being racists, (actually inserted the words into another posters mouth) when in fact they never said a thing that could be construed as racist, yet find no problem with people who call the blacks who rioted in order to gain their civil-rights, “savages”?

      That’s exactly the kind of talk I used to hear as a teenager growing up in Florida before black civil-rights became a reality in America.

      Well of course. Silly me. This is the same person who informed us that the definition of the word Christer is synonymous with the word racist. We’ll make the word Christer (square peg) fit into the round hole (racist) even if we have to drive it in with a sledge hammer.

      Would we expect anything less of such an intellect?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 1:10 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      As per usual taking things out of context and on top of it simply lie. He was describing the point of view of a fictional semi-racist person watching the riots not himself. I’m starting to think some people just scan not read posts. The guy actually says he is not calling blacks savages. had you read his ad you would have seen that. I’m not going to get sucked into your daily fight that you clearly HAVE to have with someone.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 1:21 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      But they were, Blanche. They were. Who else was rioting besides the blacks?

      And if not the blacks, they who is this mystical group Mike alludes to as “savages”?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 1:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      How creepy that he calls people Blanche. Who was that his mother or his grandmother both of which he cries about on the site. Weird. I’m not your therapist dude lets just ignore each other. You are nothing but drama.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:04 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Charles J. Mueller:

      I just find it funny that you appeal to respect the sacredness of ANYTHING given your condemnation of religion.

      I do understand what you are saying Charles, but you have to admit you using that word is kind of funny.

      And it seemed clear to me that Mike was setting up a hypothetical argument – trying to explain why resorting to needless violence or attack works against any movement for positive change.
      He in no way said he considered anyone a savage; he said that some people who see a riot will leap to that judgement – and he is right.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:07 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      “I just find it funny”

      You find everything that I say “funny”.

      Do you really think that I care?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:16 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      And yes. I will continue to condemn religion, anytime and anywhere it attacks me and takes my civil-rights away from me and my brothers and sisters.

      I know you don’t believe in free speech up there, but here in American, we still have that right.

      Eat your heart out.

      PS: Seen any good porn videos lately? Or are you all for censoring them too?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      If you didn’t care you wouldn’t comment. If you don’t care find someone else to bug like oh maybe go to an anti-gay website and insult them instead of people on the same side. Hilarious!

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:23 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      Thank you for sharing, Sister Getparanoid.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:41 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Childish names make you look ridiculous aren’t you like 80 or something and all you do is troll these threads looking for people to insult. Then you whine when people ask you to ask civilized and cry about feeling ganged up on. Are you regressing or what? No don’t answer it really isn’t my problem. Just stop picking on people the way you went after that guy Mike was totally uncalled for and you do it EVERY day. Just stick to the issues. You don’t have personal relationships with us stop trying to make them relationships. It seems desperate. So let’s go back to ignoring each other go find someone else to have an argument. With your record on this site it should take you about 5 minutes.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:46 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Charles J. Mueller:
      You have the right to free speech? Our government doesn’t sue people to prevent people from publishing laws, claiming they are under copyright.

      Our government didn’t prevent the publishing of pictures of soldiers’ caskets.

      Watched any good movies on broadcast TV that have nudity or the word “fuck” in them? No, because they censor all that on U.S. non-cable television.

      We don’t have a copyright regime that pressures ISPs to reveal what I am doing on the internet, or force removal of information from the internet by the THREAT of a lawsuit.

      We don’t have a Patriot Act that can force any company to open private records. They can even open private Canadian records if they are held by an American company.

      So cut the red herring fairy tale about America being the most free nation in the world. That’s not what we were talking about here and you have already used that stale line on me a few times. You have a great country, but you have your own share of big problems

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      cue the anti-canadian rant in 1..2..3

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @getreal:

      It’s a barrel of laughs tonight…

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @getreal:

      Yes, Mommy. Must I go to my room now, Mommy?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:57 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Chitown Kev: Who needs comedy central i read that thread with you and a few people celebrity wisdom woo-hoo you are patient!

      Mar 12, 2009 at 2:59 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Clean up on aisle 3! We need a life for Charles stat!

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @Chitown Kev: Hey Kev

      What would you guys do if you didn’t have an “80 or something” coming on these threads to liven things up a bit?

      You’d have all been snoring two hours ago. ;-)

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:00 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Landon Bryce
      Landon Bryce

      The LDS Church was started by a man who was previously convicted for fraud. He claimed that he was given gold plates by God, but never showed them to anyone else. The early church committed the Massacre at Meadows, slaughtering many peopl, including many children. Until the 1960s, the theology of the LDS Church was explicitly racist, arguing that black people had the skin color that they do because they are being punished because they sinned in a pre-existent state.

      For these reasons, I cannot respect this religion. I do not understand how intelligent people who are not evil can embrace it. I am not religious, but there are only two major religious groups that I think do not deserve respect. One is the Mormons, because of the blatant phoniness of the religion (count the barely disguised quotes from the King James Bible in the Book or Mormon) and the wickedness of many of its teachings (Mormons are taught that it is bad to use rational thought and that they should instead rely on “the burning in the breast”.)

      People who claim that the Mormons deserve the respect afforded to other religions do not know enough about the history of the LDS church.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:01 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @strumpetwindsock:

      Know of a cheap apartment or house I can move into? ;-)

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:02 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Landon Bryce: Wow fascinating! Thanks for sharing that knowledge with everyone.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Chitown Kev
      Chitown Kev

      @getreal:
      not very

      You seem to be having fun over here yourself…

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:03 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      Charles hears the clicking of Mormon sympathizers anti-aircraft guns being rotated in the direction of Landon Bryce. LOL

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Chitown Kev: Sometimes it just gets so silly on here you have to roar with laughter!

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:08 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @getreal:

      “I’m so happy you’re happy”

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:15 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Charles J. Mueller: Charles cut the sh*t you pick on people and are mean to them you think you are liven things up but it is just vicious even dropping the str8 card as if that invalidates my opinions. I’m not getting pulled into your BS anymore I could post the thread if you’d like of you insulting me unprovoked for days and finally complaining that i wouldn’t get mad and fight back then whining when the site wouldn’t let you pick on me anymore. Pathetic! I’m happy when you leave me alone.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:19 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      Oh, Geez, she’s upset again.

      Drat!

      Must have been something I said.

      And here I thought she was enjoying herself?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:27 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      But what really upsets me, is that a perfectly wonderful Bette Davis line flew right over her head!

      What a waste. LOL

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      “I’m not getting pulled into your BS anymore”

      Yet, every time I bait the hook…she goes for it…

      Hook, line and sinker.

      Let’s face, girlfriend.

      You’re easy! lol

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:33 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Not upset just not wasting time on people who bully. You showed me everything I need to know about you.

      http://www.queerty.com/good-riddance-to-james-dobson-20090227/

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:34 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      The linkslady hard at work.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • nick
      nick

      @Charles J. Mueller: Aren’t you dead yet?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:38 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @nick:

      Never healthier. ;-)

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:40 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      Cute. Just going to keep posting your greatest hits. Don’t like it then buzz off.@nick: LOL! Not nice though.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @nick:

      Drumming up business for the city morgue you work at, are ya?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @nick: Just ignore him he just wants to disrupt conversations. That stuff Landon Bryce wrote was trippy! I’m glad people are starting to give us ammunition. Talk about living in a glass house do the mormon’s really want people to start scrutinizing their ways?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:44 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      Now why would I want to buzz off when I have people like you and Nick to amuze me?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:45 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

      I’m being iggied by Mommy.

      Not nice either.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:47 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      Well, this has been more fun than a barrel of monkeys but, unfortunately, it’s coming up on 4:00 am in the morning here on the east coast and I need to get some shut-eye.

      Ni ni, now.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 3:53 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @getreal: Actually Landon is partially right.
      I think the discrimination against blacks was based on that old “curse of Ham” nonsense that a lot of churches believed.

      They also believed in killing people for interracial marriages.

      Thing is, the whole anti-black thing was started by Brigham Young. Joseph Smith actually ordained a black person (I believe this is in the “Banner of Heaven” book, but I may have picked it up on the internet.

      And there is nothing wrong with the “burning in the breast” notion. Isn’t that just another term for following listening to your intuition? It’s a bit more advanced than blindly following whatever order you get from some priest. As I said in another thread, prejudices aside, there are some ways in which I feel Mormonism is far ahead of a lot of Christian churches.

      Sorry charles. I think the real estate market is a bit cheaper down there than it is here right now. If you’re really interested, Montreal is fairly reasonable, and a lot of fun. Vancouver is also great, but not so cheap.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 9:20 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @strumpetwindsock:

      Montreal is a cool city. I spent a lot of weekends up there in my younger days visiting with hot dude who was a bottom and later decided to become a top.

      I enjoyed him both ways, until the poor devil got AIDS and joined the ranks of so many of my gay brothers. So many beautiful people. So much pain.

      Growing old, as they say, is not for wimps.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 9:42 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Charles J. Mueller:
      You are absolutely right there, though I’m not quite two-thirds as far as you are.

      And yes, we have 0.01% vacancy in my city. I think this is the only place on earth that isn’t deep in recession right now (though not untouched). I was talking to a recent Russian immigrant yesterday and gave him the bad news – that house prices have tripled in the last five years. I wouldn’t be able to afford my house if I had to buy it today.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 9:48 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Landon Bryce
      Landon Bryce

      Strumpetwindsock:

      “The Curse of Ham” nonsense is not a general belief. It was a popular legend, much like the rapture is today. Only, of course, it was used to justify slavery, Jim Crow laws, and lynching. Only the Mormons, though, were stupid and evil enough to make it actual theology in their church. Only they were still giving offical credence to it when the first African American president of the United States was born.

      As to your claim about Brigham Young, the Mormon doctrine of continuing revelation makes it meaningless. This is an idea Joseph Smith borrowed from Mohammad: the explicit doctrine that Church leaders can change church doctrine whenever they want to. Thus, Smith’s teachings have no more authority than Young’s. I think you know enough about the faith to know that.

      And to know that the actual theology of the church is every male member will eventually be the God of his own planet. One of the reasons why Mormonism is more evil than most religions is that it completely eliminates humility and replaces it with “niceness” as a primary moral value.

      Finally, there is nothing wrong with a religion encouraging its adherents to listen to their hearts or follow their intuition. There is, however, something wrong with telling people to ignore rational thought. Of course, LDS teachings strain credulity so badly that leaders must demonize critical thinking.

      Sucks when people actually know what they’re talking about it, doesn’t it?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 10:36 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Charles J. Mueller
      Charles J. Mueller

      @strumpetwindsock:

      I know exactly what you mean. I too, would not be able to afford my house in Tampa, Florida if I had to buy it today.

      I recently inherited the family house in Queens, NY that was occupied by my mother’s side of the family. My grandparents (Austrian Immigrants)bought the house from blueprints in 1941 for $9,000.

      Working class folks, grandpa worked as a machine oiler in the Arden Candy Company in Long Island City, NY for $48.00 a week. Grandma stayed home as homemaker. Grandpa faithfully handed over his weekly pay envelope every Friday night to grandma, who handled all the finances in the family.

      Living in a reasonably priced apartment on Prospect Avenue in the Bronx for several years after their arrival at Ellis Island, and with grandma’s prudent management, they managed to save up the money to pay cash for the house in Queens.

      What American family could that today, I wonder?

      Mar 12, 2009 at 10:37 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Ellen Phipps
      Ellen Phipps

      @Adam: “invented?” he didn’t invent them. It’s not a secret either. If you want to go inside the temple, nonmembers are allowed inside before they dedicate them. They have open houses right before. the reason that people don’t talk about them is because it’s one of the most sacred ceremonies in our church. It’s not a play either. You have NO idea what you are talking about.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 11:29 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • RichardR
      RichardR

      @Ellen Phipps: All religions, including their ceremonies, rituals, and dogma, were invented. Every drop of it made up, Ellen, often for nefarious reasons. Invented by men, usually, for social control, and to provide some sort of answer to life’s awful questions.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 11:56 am · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • kevin (not that one)
      kevin (not that one)

      @Ellen Phipps: Can you imagine Jesus being barred from temple ceremonies because he wasn’t a member? This is partially why many Christians seriously don’t consider the LDS part of the Christian spectrum. They will accept snake-handlers, Seventh Day Adventists, and German Brethren, but Mormonism in practice is so far removed from the tradition that it might as well be another religion, like Scientology.

      Whatever.

      I don’t care what religious practices the Mormons have – most of us don’t. I care about how they use their wealth to take away rights from non-Mormons. Using your religion to bully others who don’t believe is quite literally religious totalitarianism.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 12:03 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @strumpetwindsock: @Landon Bryce: I think that these frank and informative talks about mormonism make them less monolithic, scary, and powerful. They are just a group of people some good, some bad,some terribly misguided and hateful. Thanks for offering some context to the dialogue.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 1:50 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • getreal
      getreal

      @Mike: Your posts remind me of something I read on the Dalai Lama’s twitter this morning.

      “It is anger that is a sign of weakness, whereas patience is a sign of strength”

      AND

      People rarely get angry if they are confident in what they are doing. Anger comes more easily in moments of confusion.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 1:59 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • A Voice In The Wilderness
      A Voice In The Wilderness

      “…the characters are often unsympathetic figures who come across as narrow and self-righteous.”

      In other words, they’re REAL MORMONS! (Gasp!)

      (I live in Utah, so I know from whence I speak.)

      “Certainly Church members are offended when their most sacred practices are misrepresented or presented without context or understanding.”

      Forgive me if I lack any sympathy at all. These assholes are frequently spouting off about things they know nothing of (like liquor and LGBT issues) and do not bother to pay much attention to such petty niceties as sympathy, context or understanding. Funny how quickly they start whimpering when the shoe’s on the other foot. If I weren’t convinced that most of them are legally brain dead by now, I’d be wondering about the discrepancy.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 4:36 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal

      again some people here feel ok in letting the supreme court and mr.obama off the hook.”lets peacefully protest”cool and then what??im a young,racially mix,gay person and my life is being affected NOW!!!everyday my life is a “peaceful protest”,when i get negative,homophobic garbage thrown my way everyday,for the silliest of reasons im all Mahatma Ghandi in my response ALWAYS.BUT what angers me is that where i live,and where all gays live they have governments that dont treat em as equal citizens even though they dont mind taking their taxes equally with their straight counterparts.i hate courts that cower in fear of a majority even though history shows that the majority sometimes are wrong(racism)…..so to all to geniuses here who think if u dont just think that peaceful protests do the trick u must automatically be on the side of violence,please take ur silly selves back to school pronto!!!!!

      Mar 12, 2009 at 5:09 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • sal
      sal

      @strumpetwindsock: cool

      Mar 12, 2009 at 5:14 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @Landon Bryce:
      Not sure why you made the comment about knowing what you’re talking about; I wrote nothing to imply you did not, and it wasn’t my intention to have a pissing war.

      I have never heard the story that blacks were considered to have been inferior in the pre-existence. You may be right, but I have never heard it before; I invite you to share your source, if you wish. The story I heard was that “curse of Ham” myth.

      I made the comments about Young and blood atonement WRT interracial marriage because I felt it was a significant addition to your comments, particularly that a lot of the racism was started by Young, and that Joseph Smith actually ordained one black man.

      And yes, I know about continuing revelation; I don’t think it is relevant. If you think that is an issue that trumps LDS historical information then none of the points you brought up matter, since none of this is LDS doctrine any more – it has been done away with by revelation.

      I think past doctrine does have some significance actually, though it is also significant that the worst of these beliefs were removed a century ago, and another really discriminatory one – witholding the priesthood from blacks – ended decades ago (and no, I am not saying the Church does not do many bad things right now).

      Really, I wasn’t trying to challenge your knowledge on the first point at all, though the notion the LDS church is “more evil” than most religions is simply false; that’s an argument from the Pentacostals, or Jack Chick pamphlets. Mormonism ain’t one of the best, but it sure ain’t the worst. Really they are all such multilayered organizations that you can’t make a value judgement like that.

      But I do disagree with you that personal revelation is a bad thing. Mormons believe that it is actually a message from the holy spirit, not intuition, I know. But it is still a matter of going over the heads of church authorities, and in my opinion, a bit more of an act of personal responsibility than blindly accepting everything from the pulpit.

      And ignoring rational thought and critical thinking? To the extent that they do that ignore it (and really you can’t tell me you know what goes on in the head of ANY person) certainly no more than any other major religion. They all involve some faith based on things which cannot be proven.

      But then, a lot of things in this world, including a good deal of science, is based on theory, allegory and acceptance of things unseen.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 6:26 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @sal: Gotcha. No offense intended.

      Mar 12, 2009 at 6:27 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • saved by grace
      saved by grace

      Jesus did not teach in secret…

      Why should the LDS be secretive?

      They profess Jesus, but yet are secretive?

      It makes no sense.

      In this day and age, things can not remain secretive and rightly so….

      LDS initiates should know what is expected of them in the temple before they attend. They have a right to know what their religion teaches about secretive rituals, why not tell them what they are going to do before???

      Is it because if they did tell initiates the truth, they would go running? Most likely.

      I had a friend who was raised mormon, and was married in the temple durring the time they took blood oaths ( yes, you read right – blood oaths). After she was married there, she never went back. It freaked her out and from what she told me, she had every right to go packing.

      Fortunately she and her husband and beautiful children are now Christians who know that this ritual is not from God but from man.

      My heart aches for the lost souls in the mormon church. May God open their eyes to the truth.

      In christ,

      Mar 16, 2009 at 3:11 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • GAY'S ARE WHINEY BITCHES!
      GAY'S ARE WHINEY BITCHES!

      You know..I’m not even Mormon, but it seems to me all you faggots that take the time right your long books on here fit the mold. You are overly sensitive and are bitter drama queens. Bottom line God hates the fact that you CHOOSE to be gay. News Flash for 90 % of you on this web site….There is only one way and it’s Gods way! You’re just pissed and scared that just maybe you’re not right. You can’t decide what’s moraly and ethicly right just because you FEEL like it.

      I’m so tired of the bitching and moaning it’s pathetic!

      Mar 21, 2009 at 9:48 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Landon Bryce
      Landon Bryce

      @GAY’S ARE WHINEY BITCHES!:

      Hi-

      I found your message fascinating, and I have some questions.

      1. Would you go on to a site with a largely African American readership and refer to the majority of the readership as “niggers”? If not, maybe you should reconsider your use of the word “faggot” here.

      2. It’s very nice that you have an imaginary friend that makes you happy. Imagine for minute, though, that we live in a country where people have religious freedom. Should your religious opinions (and they can ethically be referred to in no other way) take precedence over someone else’s civil rights? What if you lived in a country with an Islamic majority?

      3. I am always troubled that people who are not gay think they know more about being gay than I do and are qualified to judge us. Can you deny that Christians (and everyone else) would do much more moral good by focusing on eradicating their own sin than by demonizing others? Can you deny that the people who are effected most by gay issues are gay people? Wouldn’t an ethical person factor that in when forming his or her opinions?

      4. If you are going to insult people on the internet, take the trouble to spell your insults correctly. It makes you too easy a target when you do not.

      Love,

      A whiny, retarded, gay bitch

      Mar 21, 2009 at 10:04 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • strumpetwindsock
      strumpetwindsock

      @GAY’S ARE WHINEY BITCHES!:
      Since you bring up the subject of whining, can’t you think of anything better to do on a Saturday night than being an annoying pest?

      I’d say more, but I think Landon took care of it just fine.

      Mar 21, 2009 at 10:23 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·
    • Don
      Don

      @Mom:
      Ouch! Cam “ole buddy”. I have over 6 thousand hours of PURE study regarding the Mormon Teachings (sorry LDS teachings). ONLY a fool or a brainwashed child would ever believe their lies. Good ole buddy Joe Smith lied over and over again. After a study (over 4,000 hours) on the Dead Sea Scrolls they expose Joe as the Liar he is. Corrupt manuscripts, where? Study Good Ole Buddy Joe’s bible then compare Isaiah. Isaiah from the second century BC is on display in the museum. WOW that was over 300 years PRIOR to the Great Whore of Babylon Church ever existed. OOPS, no agenda. If you dare. Contact me and I will share by the Grace of God a COMPLETE Biblical Study on your Priesthood. You will be very surprised that I have MORE AUTHORITY than your prophits (only according to Jesus). Avoid the official HELL of the bible. Study with me. This is a Christian Challenge. Good Luck, “ole Buddy.

      Jun 5, 2009 at 8:49 pm · @ReplyReply to this comment ·

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