Well, this could be interesting. For the first time ever, a practicing Muslim is a finalist in the Mister Gay Belgium competition. There are probably some very strong feelings about Islam in Belgium right now, so finalist is in a position to take a stand on racism and prejudice … and also to be the victim of it.
“I want to show that 2016 should be a feasible year for the existence of different cultures, including Islam, in order to all live in peace. It should be feasible for everyone to accept people as they are,” he said in an interview. That’s a nice sentiment, but he has his work cut out for him when it comes to showing people what it means to be Muslim and openly gay.
There have been Muslim candidates in the past, but they pulled out due to fear about their families and communities finding out. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of tolerance. But Abdellah’s family has been supportive, and so he’s advanced to a final round. He’s got a hunky Instagram account, if that helps.
There’s no word on the religion, if any, of the other contestants. Obviously Islam isn’t the only religion where LGBTs face terrible persecution and abuse. But it’s still a milestone for a Muslim contestant to make it so far and so publicly in the competition — and it’s a particularly controversial time, given the attacks by religious terrorists just a few days ago.
How about we take this to the next level?
Our newsletter is like a refreshing cocktail (or mocktail) of LGBTQ+ entertainment and pop culture, served up with a side of eye-candy.
“The Koran says that we should tolerate each other – this means we have to respect others regardless of their choices and way of life,” Abdellah said in an interview.
The final round of competition is May 28 in Antwerp. Good luck to everyone!
Scroll down to see a few more photos of Abdellah.
Victor Barry
Hope he has life insurance. 🙁
broadshoulder
Good for him!
Tony Tobias
Careful keep away from high rise buildings. You have been warned.
Billy Budd
I want him to win the competition. This would send the right message to the world, especially to Islam.
Rikki Stafford
He’s gorgeous 🙂
Luke Ellison
Ooraw Good Luck mate
joeyty
Somebody put a Salman Rushdie mask on Matt Baume and send him walking through a Muslim neighborhood, please.
money718
@Victor Barry: Agreed.
slymteo
@joeyty:
What a sad, ugly life you must lead. Being in the closet turns you into joeyty.
Sweetie Pie
Kind of hot…not too much though
joeyty
@slymteo: In the closet ? Hardly. You want to hook up ? “Sad and ugly” life? I’m not the one wishing harm on innocent people like Baume and cheering him on like you.
slymteo
@joeyty:
????
You LITERALLY just wished harm on Baume. You can’t do something and then insist you’re not doing it. Especially not when there’s a paper trail.
This isn’t how deflection works. I see you didn’t keep a dictionary with you in your closet.
joeyty
@slymteo: Yeah, I did. After he wished harm on a slew of innocent people. So shut the f–k up, Slymey.
slymteo
@joeyty:
So did you or didn’t you? Because you said you didn’t, and when cornered you now say you did. What’s the truth, Joey? Again, we have the receipts.
I can’t fathom being on your intellectual level. The simplicity must be bliss.
joeyty
@slymteo: I did. I said I did from the beginning. It’s what his ilk deserves. At least to get a good scare.
joeyty
@slymteo: I said I’m not the one wishing harm on “innocent” people. Can’t you read ? Baume isn’t innocent. (Talk about intellectual levels..)
Giandorko86
@Sweetie Pie: that’s being to kind really
slymteo
@Giandorko86:
I forgot you, the troll with the mocking name, existed. You still bitter you couldn’t get laid if you sat on a dildo factory assembly
line? I’d love to see the beauty competitions you’ve competed in. I’m sure you’ve done several.
Giandorko86
@slymteo: nice to meet you to. Let’s make America great again
slymteo
@Giandorko86:
Agreed. First step is to get Republicans out of office.
Giandorko86
@slymteo: by the way how could you forget me, when you’ve never talk to me before and I’ve never seen your name before?
Giandorko86
@slymteo: you mean in the office
Giandorko86
@slymteo: my name mocks giancarlo1985 is this one of your numerous handles too
dean089
Damn, he’s yummy!
esemple
Good luck. You are an excellent role model.
dwes09
@joeyty: 1. Please provide some indication, using actual words from the article, to support your hallucination that the author has wished harm on anybody (seems you are the only one doing that, then denying it, than admitting it, than denying it…).
2. I understand that people like you live in the past, but Rushdie has been living openly for years, going where he wants, doing what he wants without fear.
You need to try and connect with reality a bit more. Here’s a clue: it is quite different from your imagination.
slymteo
@dwes09:
Imagination is all it has. There’s certainly no social interaction or love life in play for Joey.
joeyty
@dwes09: If you knew of Baume’s history before this article it would be clear what I’m talking about. And you’re a self-hating Jew who cheered the recent attacks in Belgium, so…shush up. The rest of us value innocent life.
joeyty
@dwes09: “I understand that people like you live in the past, but Rushdie has been living openly for years, going where he wants, doing what he wants without fear.” Thanks for the info. I should have told Baume to walk through a Muslim neighborhood wearing a Mohammad cartoon T-shirt instead. You too.
slymteo
@joeyty:
“self-hating Jew.”
OH. BROTHER. You’re trolling soooooo hard. Is this your actual occupation?
joeyty
@slymteo: Shush, Miss Colombia.
sdsinmpls
Absolutely Adorable!
dwes09
@joeyty: self-hating Jew who cheered the recent attacks in Belgium,
You are a lying piece of s**t! If anyone rejoices in the death of innocents it is scum like you, you should be ashamed of yourself, but lack both the ethics and intelligence to understand that! Why does hateful trash like you even come here and try to spread your sadness and mental illness around?
dwes09
@joeyty: I should have told Baume to walk through a Muslim neighborhood wearing a Mohammad cartoon T-shirt instead. You too.
You really are mentally ill! You have nothing better to do but wish ill on others! And you are blissfully unaware of how people here laugh at you. You do more damage to the gay community than the evangelicals by embodying their ideas of homosexuality as an illness!
dwes09
@slymteo: “There’s certainly no social interaction or love life in play for Joey.”
And he even makes it impossible for others to have compassion of pity for him. He wallows in his dysfunction like a pig in muck. Intrerestingly, he refers to me as a self-hating Jew because I defended statements made by Israelis that were not congruent with his imaginary beliefs about Israel.
joeyty
@dwes09: No, you’re the one doing nothing but damage to the gay “community.” You’re a vicious buttinsky, mean-spirited, self-hating. And you’re willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent people, heteros and gays and lesbians, just to prove a point. When you’re not restricting yourself to only chasing the most WASPy type men…like how Roy Cohn behaved. You’re an absolute horror who looks to start things up on the internet because it’s easier than causing harm outside, in real life.
joeyty
@dwes09: And now you’re bonding with a garish-faced pseudo-trans self-hating loon from Colombia who still denies he’s from the serial killer capital of the world. The east coast loon bonding with the west coast loon. What a nest of grotesque vipers Queerty is becoming, and the pair of you just couldn’t mind your own grotesque business.
joeyty
@dwes09: “And you are blissfully unaware of how people here laugh at you.” Oh, how will I ever survive THAT blow ?? A bunch of anonymous screen names are laughing at “joeyty” which isn’t even my real name. (Which again shows how delusional you are about thinking this is some kind of fraternal lodge with real people).
dwes09
@joeyty: “No, you’re the one doing nothing but damage to the gay “community.” You’re a vicious buttinsky, mean-spirited, self-hating. And you’re willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent people, heteros and gays and lesbians, just to prove a point. When you’re not restricting yourself to only chasing the most WASPy type men…like how Roy Cohn behaved. You’re an absolute horror who looks to start things up on the internet because it’s easier than causing harm outside, in real life.”
Project much?
Provide one quote from me that implies I do any such thing. You are a sad, sad little man (possibly not even homosexual) who adds nothing here as others constantly point out to you.
joeyty
@dwes09: There is no quote from you that provides evidence for that. But I know your type. NYC is full of you. (Look at Andy Cohen. Calvin Klein. The late George Cukor…but at least HE was talented). And we note you didn’t say one word to Baume’s whole espousal of bringing harm to innocent people in his past articles. You just like chasing me around and butting in because you’re still ticked off.
joeyty
@dwes09: “as others constantly point out to you.” “Others”? Who are the “others”? A bunch of fake names ? Again, you think we’re in a flesh and blood club here. The only things we can bring up are verifiable things in the real world. Anything we say about ourselves is worth nothing- could all be lies.
Hussain-TheCanadian
I really don’t know what is it you’re trying to prove Joey; when Queerty celebrates good Muslim stories, you begin with the usual poisonous hate filled opinion – I mean do you not see us as human beings or what is it you’re trying to show?
Would it make you better if all Muslims are really ISIS/Al-Qaeda? It seems this is what you think – It’s a shame if you do. You give off the impression that your heart is filled with anger and fear towards Muslims, it can’t be a sign of a good role model.
Calling someone a “self hating Jew” is equally horrendous; it can’t be that you think the way you talk, behave, and insult others like this is right. If you want to change people’s hearts and minds, you are going about it completely the wrong away.
o.codone
Don’t be fooled. That’s a gun in his pocket. A small gun, but it’s a cute gun. hahahah.
joeyty
@Hussain-TheCanadian: Why the hell are YOU butting in now ? I said nothing bad about this Mr. Gay competitor. I think the writer Matt Baume’s an evil horror, and said what I think he deserves. Then silly GianCarlo and the self-hating Jew (sorry, but they DO exist…you wouldn’t believe this one that used to chase me around..what he wanted me to call him..)dwes started up with me. THEY started up with ME. Get it ? You’re safe up there in Canada, anyway. you’re out of all this.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@joeyty: I doubt if you can look at me, and I at you, face to face, you’d say the hateful things you’re typing. I would think you’d have a conversation with me, discuss what we can do to make our Western values better, make sure our immigrants and their children ingrate into our society better – talk about politics, Religion, social values – that’s what human beings do.
Do you really not think the hate you type has no effect on people reading it? You don’t think it has an effect on you who is typing these thoughts?
joeyty
@Hussain-TheCanadian: “Do you really not think the hate you type has no effect on people reading it? You don’t think it has an effect on you who is typing these thoughts?” Not much. Especially not on dopey Queerty. The real people, out there, come to conclusions about things by watching what goes on in the world.
joeyty
@Hussain-TheCanadian: And why are you criticizing me (for something I didn’t even say) instead of Victor Barry and Tony Tobias for what they DID say ?
Frankie Trice
Arabs are hot…
Hussain-TheCanadian
@joeyty: I’m not criticizing you at all, I’m just asking you heart to heart – I really mean it when I say that most of your posts about Muslims are filled with anger and fear; is this article not worthy of celebration?
I read your response and its about wishing someone death by mentioning Rushdie, a washed up author, who has becomes a fixture on Bill Maher’s “Real time” – This is why I asked you why are you so angry with Muslims, and why are you responding to someone by calling them a “self hating Jew” – This is the anger im talking about – Is this why you like Trump?
joeyty
@Hussain-TheCanadian: No, don’t try to change the subject. Admit that GianCarlo and the self-hating Jew started up with ME for criticizing Matt Baume (non-Muslim). And why aren’t you asking about my venemous post about North Carolina people (non-Muslim)?
Ross D Frankel
Strikingly handsome fellow.
joeyty
@Hussain-TheCanadian: What do you call a Jew who ONLY goes after gentile females (the shiksa goddess) or the most non-Jewish men to prove that he’s made it in the world now. He’s reassured he’s good enough to get the gentile. All of which Phillip Roth, Woody Allen, Hollywood historians, and others have written about. You don’t call that self-hating ?
Hussain-TheCanadian
@joeyty: What Venomous about North Carolina people?
I don’t think Slymteo is Gian, but if he is then yeah he did start with you, and then it went down hill from there.
As for dWes, there is bad blood between you guys – you kind of “started it” some time ago when you called him a “self hating Jew” on the “Israeli novel banning” thread. It’s not nice that he said you were “hallucinating” i’ll say that – We can’t go in a loop insulting each other like this, this is not how adults talk to each other.
dwes09
@joeyty: “But I know your type.”
No, you are projecting your own illness on me and making shit up. You have no idea about me at all. As for not remarking on other articles by this writer, i read the article, and read the comment. I pay little attention to who is writing as they are universally mediocre journalists. I respond to your comments because they are so off base and foolish. The disconnect from reality bothers me.
And yes, everybody here generally uses pseudonymous avatars. So? It is so trolls and psychotics like you cannot approach us IRL. We are however ALL flesh and blood people. Do you think we are robots or voices in your head made real on your computer screen? As for “verifiable things in the real world”, you need a bit of instruction in figuring out what those are.
joeyty
@Hussain-TheCanadian: There you go. At least you admit they started it. He goes stalking me around. Maybe he likes the abuse).
Typhon
Well good for him but (without knowing the details of his affiliation re: islam and precisely how devout he might be) I still cringe as much at the idea of a gay muslim as I would a gay christian. The outright condemnation of male homosexuality in both religions is absolute… to advocate otherwise is to indulge in tortured mental gymnastics and intellectual dishonesty. If Abdellah (or anyone else for that matter) wants to do this that is their business, I will however have a hard time respecting that position. As far as I am concerned you embrace islam, christianity or whatever as the truth and loath yourself for being queer or you reject these philosophies as non or part truths and not of divine origin in which case throw it out of your life like the baby with the bathwater.
The koran says men having sex with men is unnatural and something even animals dont do. The latter is of course wrong which immediately demonstrates muhammad hardly had access to divine and absolute truth, islam if the product of man not a deity but most gay men are well aware of this as no loving god would make us queer or allow us to be born that way then sentence us to extermination.
It seems to me that Abdullah and those theistic gays like him want to have their philosophical cake and eat it to. Personally i think a religon that treats gays the way islam and chrstianity do needs to be rejected outright.
Hussain-TheCanadian
@joeyty: When did dWes say that he only goes after Non-Jewish men?
The first time I read you saying that he’s a self-hating Jew, is on the Israeli government book banning thread, which I don’t remember him saying anything about dating non-Jews only – Did he?
joeyty
@dwes09: Scram, anonymous name thing.
joeyty
@Hussain-TheCanadian: ALL self-hating Jews chase gentile men. The more pug-nosed the better.
dwes09
@Hussain-TheCanadian: “If you want to change people’s hearts and minds, you are going about it completely the wrong away.”
He clearly does not want to change hearts and minds. He believes his opinions and imagination are real and his bitterness towards the world is huge. He feels all should bow to his superior opinion and lashes out if folks question it at all. He cannot see you (or me) as other than evil creations of his own imagination.
joeyty
@Hussain-TheCanadian: North Carolina is venemous for a zillion reasons. The straights are bad, the gays are worse. The whites are bad and the blacks are worse. And ten years ago at Duke U. the New Black Panthers (Muslim) were invited to shout death threats at Reid Seligmann (because he was half-Jewish) falsely accused of rape, and gays from NYC joined in, along with the dwes types. Furious that a half-Jew dared to be athletic. And that’s just one tenth of how evil gays behaved with that case.
dwes09
@Hussain-TheCanadian: “The first time I read you saying that he’s a self-hating Jew, is on the Israeli government book banning thread, which I don’t remember him saying anything about dating non-Jews only – Did he?”
He made me into a self hating Jew in his mind because I said he was wrong about the reasons for the book banning (I felt the Israeli statement was more reliable than his imagination), and because I pointed out he knew nothing at all about marriage laws in Israel. I guess he feels i must be self hating because i do not match his imaginary notion of what Jews are, just as you do not fit his beliefs regarding Muslims. As for his notion that I only go for “pug nosed” shagitzs, that is entirely his fantasy. I like nice distinctive noses. I have one, and I like them on others. Persian men, Turkish men…woof!!! Never been much for blonds. But again, we see over and over that his imagination carries more weight for him than reality.
joeyty
@dwes09: Any gay who espouses filling up the U.S. with Muslims is self-hating, suicidal, or both. No way around it.
joeyty
@joeyty: From Lee Marvin to Kevin Bacon.
dwes09
@Hussain-TheCanadian: “It’s not nice that he said you were “hallucinating” i’ll say that”
Seems pretty clear he is hallucinating; or simply making stuff up and tossing it out there. There is no bad blood between us, though it is rather frustrating that any criticism of his skewed interpretation of things draws instant personal attack. His antisemitism offends me. And that is precisely what it is. If Jews deviate from his image of what we should be he insults. He knows little about us other than stereotype obviously , just as he imposes that stereotype on you. That offends me deeply, but otherwise he is a minor irritant with big, poorly constructed opinions.
You are much more charitable and conciliatory than I, and look where it gets you? Just as much abuse from him as anyone else who dares have a different view.
joeyty
@dwes09: Then why do you follow me around, butting in ? And what position did you take with the Duke lacrosse case ? Did you join the anti-Semitic lynchmob along with the homophobes like other gays did (including Belonsky, the founder of Queerty)? Be honest (lol..)
dwes09
@joeyty: ” Any gay who espouses filling up the U.S. with Muslims is self-hating, suicidal, or both. No way around it.”
Which of course I never said. Once again, the product of your imagination. And in any case, more Muslims are like Hussain, and my Muslim friends (gay and straight) here than your imagined bogymen.
joeyty
@dwes09: Your Muslim friends. I’ll believe that one about as far as i could throw you. Where do you live again ? Which state ?
joeyty
@dwes09: So would you elect to have the U.S. go half-Muslim or not ?
joeyty
@dwes09: If I give you my number will you invite me to visit (I can fly anywhere) and meet these alleged gay Muslim friends of yours ?
joeyty
“And in any case, more Muslims are like Hussain, and my Muslim friends (gay and straight) here than your imagined bogymen.” Yeah…I guess that’s why gays are treated so well in Muslim-majority countries.
dwes09
@joeyty: Actually I didn’t pay much attention to the “duke lacrosse case” at all. I didn’t even know Queerty existed when it happened. And i don’t remember it being in the media much here. After you made some reference to it on some past board, I looked it up. I have no position really, and so what? You are like those regressives that still refer to Jane Fonda as “Hanoi Jane”, or our governor as “Governor Moonbeam”. Things change, the past is the past. Why are you obsessed with events from 10 years ago? What does that have to do with anything!? This is why I assume you have real and serious mental illness. But I will say you make a reference to the Black Panthers as Muslims which is ridiculous. Some may be, but they are not a religious organization in any way. They are a secular black power group, originally from Oakland advocating for self reliance, gun ownership and community cohesion among blacks. Clearly that is very threatening to you.
Honestly, just because you are obsessed with something, does not mean the world is obsessed with it. Just because you have odd ides about my people does not mean those ideas are true. Get a fucking grip, or get professional help.
dwes09
@joeyty: Your Muslim friends. I’ll believe that one about as far as i could throw you. Where do you live again ? Which state ?
I live in San Francisco, have for the past 42 years. Born in Brooklyn. raised in Flushing, schooled in the Finger Lakes. And I don’t care if you believe me. I couldn’t care what you think of me, so why would i lie. Your opinion would not be reality based anyway.
dwes09
@joeyty: We could name any number of “Christian majority countries” where LGBT people have been or are poorly treated. Reality much? And how gays are treated in a place like Saudi Arabia, which comprises a tiny %age of Muslims is indicative of cultural heritage, not th religion as a whole, but like I said, reality much?
joeyty
@dwes09: No, they are a Muslim group that believes in death for homosexuality. (“Some may be, but they are not a religious organization in any way. They are a secular black power group” you say : you’re talking of the original Black Panthers) And, nevertheless, gays joined with them (including threats of murder and mutilation and handing out their home addresses)because they hated the ethnicities of the falsely-accused (Irish-American; Jewish..) All of this comes up in the books on the case (the “Strange Bedfellows” syndrome). Now, ten years later, the false accuser is in prison for murder and the three falsely-accused are VERY rich and rather hot. And you have to live with that one.
joeyty
@dwes09: Which Christian-majority countries execute gays? Some dumps in Africa ?
joeyty
@dwes09: Everybody who tells me they have gay Muslim friends just scurry away when I ask to come meet them. (Reality much? is right).
dwes09
@joeyty:”If I give you my number will you invite me to visit (I can fly anywhere) and meet these alleged gay Muslim friends of yours ?”
Give my number to a psycho? You may think me stupid, but I am not. Were I to realize I was talking to you at a bar (assuming you actually live in NYC as you have implied) I would excuse myself quickly!! You are only safe to interact with on the other side of an internet connection.
joeyty
@dwes09: That’s a good way to get out of it. LOL. Okay…but you know the difference now between the Black Panthers and the New Black Panthers who anti-Semitic gays joined with ?
joeyty
@dwes09: “Actually I didn’t pay much attention to the “duke lacrosse case” at all. I didn’t even know Queerty existed when it happened. And i don’t remember it being in the media much here.” It was in the media a LOT in San Francisco. In fact in one of the major marathons (I forget the name…a goofy one) they wore Duke lacrosse T-shirts as a joke. And it was known in San Francisco not to wear a Duke t-shirt or you’d be called (with typical San Francisco intellect) a “ r a c i s t classist heterosexist rape apologist !!”
dwes09
.@joeyty: ” And you have to live with that one.”
Huh? I have to live with your unbalanced obsession with an old event that I paid little attention to? What the hell are you talking about, you are totally off the deep end now girl! you may have been amusing to the sane, but now you are bouncing off the wall.
Continue talking to yourself. This is now too sad.
As for having Muslim friends, Yup, I do. Here in town and on Facebook in Indonesia, Malaysia, the middle east and . I am big in horticultural circles, and know a lot of folks on international forums. They see the gay stuff i post on my facebook page and are not bothered in the least. you probably think they’d stone me if we met, but that’s your illness, not reality.
Bye! I’m done here, maybe you’ll calm down after a bit.
joeyty
@dwes09: “Things change, the past is the past. Why are you obsessed with events from 10 years ago?” Then why do activists keep bringing up Matthew Shepard ?
joeyty
@dwes09: “Big in horticulutural circles” lol. And I’m a top equestrian.
joeyty
@dwes09: “Bye! I’m done here, maybe you’ll calm down after a bit” Okay. Stop sticking your nose into others’ conversations. Especially when you don’t even know what we’re referring to specifically.
dwes09
@joeyty: “Which Christian-majority countries execute gays? Some dumps in Africa ?”
OK one last comment to the reality challenged man. Not too many years have passed since gay men (and trans women) have been murdered casually and callously in the USA, a “christian majority country”, and not likely that it won’t happen again, and that the perps will not get prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Perhaps not legally executed but certainly an expression of the Christian mind set OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES YOU IDIOT. You are so far removed from reality it is funny!
joeyty
@dwes09: LOL. Yeah…that’s the same as being officially executed by the state (or by ISIS in some cases) and then stoned to death by the general population that agrees with the punishment.
Giandorko86
So dissatisfying to see our community reduced to this
joeyty
@Giandorko86: Only in San Fransilly would someone try to hang onto the idea that the U.S. is as bad for gays as any Muslim country.
Giandorko86
One persons comment justifies degrading everybody in San Francisco
joeyty
@Giandorko86: I never go by just one person’s comment. I could start listing more of San Francisco’s “brilliance”.
Giandorko86
Maybe you should call Hillary she could use your brilliance
joeyty
@Giandorko86: She sure needs somebody’s brilliance lately.
Bruce Maynard-Holly
Hott
Transiteer
Best of Luck to him! This is a brave thing to do – Muslims aren’t noted for their liberalism. I wish him well. Take care of yourself and be on guard for those that favour intolerance over humanity.
martinbakman
Nice to see this guy is out.
Been wondering how many of ISIS converts from US and Europe are closet cases.
joeyty
@Transiteer: Maybe he feels risking his life is worth the risk for any positive change.
Sluggo2007
Note to ISIS: Ya missed one!!!!
o.codone
@joeyty: “If I give you my number will you invite me to visit (I can fly anywhere) and meet these alleged gay Muslim friends of yours ?”
Those fairy wings must be tired girlfriend. And, Miss Thing, this is not a hook-up site so don’t be giving out your number like that. If you need friends go out, meet people, and hook up that way.
Finally, you live in San Francisco. That explains a lot since only crazy flakes live there.
Ogre Magi
@Typhon: A very good point
Stilinski26
Gay muslim?
myloginname
Bismillah! What a babe!
joeyty
@o.codone: Nope, my wings aren’t tired. But I agree that only flakes live in San Francisco. (Excuse me for being the one person here willing to make things real, rather than another anonymous screen name who makes up stories like every other typist here).
Xzamilio
Honestly, this just feels like pandering. I see Islam just as regressive as Christianity, but I don’t really care about the cognitive dissonance of aligning with a religion that has no qualms about its misogyny, anti-gay rhetoric, and all around retrograde ideology — although very progressive for its time — my issue is just the simple fact that in this day and age, in the age of technology and scientific knowledge, we still have this sky daddy nonsense. I mean, really? We know there was once water on Mars… we wouldn’t know that if we still clung to the iron/bronze age gobbledygook.