Queerty is better as a member
Go worship your god and I’ll worship unicorns and Zeus. All equally non-existence or we would have scientific proof of such.
So arrogant to impose your selfish views upon others with a film. The problem with these films is that the idiots who go see them will only get “confirmation” of their own hatred, then perpetuating it through their children.
And to think, churches are getting a tax break in which I’m paying for through MY taxes!
Reading this interview with Jacob Kindberg, I’m reminded of a commentator on a Southern Baptist website who wrote, “I can’t reconcile how someone could feel he or she was born with strong homosexual feelings, love Christ and yet take on the limitations of what seem to me to be straightforward biblical teachings. That’s agonizing, and I don’t really understand it.”
And this is the weird thing: “Straighforward biblical teachings” should at least be understandable to the average person. So often I hear it said, “OUR ways are not GOD’s ways,” as if God was some sort of inscrutable alien being.
Consider The Golden Rule: We do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Put all the religious dogma and ritual aside, and this is what our laws boil down to. We don’t lie or bear false witness because we won’t want people to lie to us. We don’t steal from other people because we do not want people stealing from us. We don’t betray the trust of our spouses because we wouldn’t want them doing the same to us. Same goes for killing and a variety of other “bad” behaviors.
And yet somehow there seems to be this sheepish adherence to a double standard for Gay and Straight people. If you’re Straight, it’s all so wonderful to be able to find a compatible person of the opposite sex, court and get engaged and marry and live happily ever after. But if you’re Gay, all of that is completely out of the question. Don’t even bother trying to find a compatible person. Lesbians and Gay men are precluded from any hope for romance or commitment. Gay people are simply told: “Gosh, sorry about that. You make us uncomfortable; acknowledging your existence means we might have to revise what we’ve been teaching all these years – meaning, Whoops! No infallible Magisterium or “literal” Bible … so you’ll just have to sacrifice your life and any hope of finding somebody to love. Tough luck, kid. God said it, I don’t necessarily understand it, but there it is.”
I wish more evangelicals would at least TRY to wrap their minds around why this makes so little sense to Gay people, and why constant exposure to this sort of disdain is exactly WHY so many Gay young people end up taking their own lives.
This guy is obviously crazy, or very oportunistic. And poor Dennis is just a bisexual guy who blocked out an important part of his own self.
Contrary to popular belief, homosexuals were not fully accepted in either Greek or Roman culture.110 Throughout the Roman and Greek civilizations, gender incongruent males were ridiculed. Solon, as a practical matter, legalized homosexuality to tax the earnings of homosexual prostitutes. Roman law punished homosexual behavior as early as the third century B.C., later protecting minors and forbidding the use of premises for homosexual activity upon pain of death, even by burning.111
In the Old Testament, the Ten Commandments do not include homosexual behavior (Deuteronomy 5.11-21) and the seven acts most detestable to God (Proverbs 6.16-19: “haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers” do not mention sexual misconduct. In the New Testament, Christ never mentioned homosexuality and asked for understanding and restraint of condemnation in sexual matters (John 8.1-11). The Bible never discusses homosexuality in the context of committed relationships or within the Gay community.112 In I Corinthians 6.9-10, as translated by some into English, St. Paul (coming from a cross-cultural Hebrew, Greek, and Roman perspective) discusses pagan sanctioned temple (cult) male prostitutes (???vo?, pornos), effeminate males or catamites (?????o?, malakos), and homosexuals (a???vo?oi???, arsenokoitai). St. Paul’s statements taken literally, as translated into English, would condemn celibate effeminate homosexuals. Boswell, using Koine Greek contemporary to St. Paul, translations into other languages, and early Christian scholarship and commentaries on I Corinthians 6.9-10 convincingly argues St. Paul was not discussing homosexuals or homosexuality.113
Saint Augustine, considered Pauline, admitted homosexual practices with much anguish. When Saints John Chrysostom and Augustine–both vehemently opposed to homosexuality–comment on I Corinthians 6.9-10, neither mentions homosexuality.114 St. Augustine’s major apologist, Martin Luther, wrote derisively of homosexuals, but translated “????vo?o????” as “Knabenschänder,” or child molester.115 The Christian Emperor, Justinian, who herded whole villages into rivers to be baptized so they could die in Christ, believed homosexuality caused earthquakes, famines, and pestilence and legislated homosexual behavior should be subjected to penance much like adultery.116 His wife, Theodora, avoiding abortion, had many of her illegitimate children murdered.
Bible, Torah, and Koran advocate male supremacy. The books of the Bible appear to have been generally accepted about the time of the Council of Carthage in 397. Until A.D. 858, Christians debated whether women had souls.117 The Council of Trent “condemned to anathema anyone who said marriage was as virtuous as celibacy.”118 In Christian, Hebrew, and Moslem texts male homosexuals are seen as effeminates who adopt female sexual behaviors119. The “sin” of homosexuality and legal prohibitions against homosexuals relates to cross-gendered behavior.120 Unlike the Bible, the Koran mentions lesbian behavior. The Koran calls for the punishment of lesbians. Male homosexuals can go through a purification ritual. Lesbians could be forever locked away. While Sunnis appear to follow the Koran, Shiites have adopted an extreme form of punishment for homosexuals. The first such punishment was to throw homosexuals from minarets. This distasteful practice has been replaced with hangings, beatings, being thrown from cliffs using Shariah, a strict code of law derived from “hadith, ijma, and qiyas” not found in the writings of the Prophet Mohammed.
Christian, Jewish, and Moslem passages against homosexuals may derive from the stories of “Sodom and Gomorrah” and “Ham.” Based on many Bible passages, the most illustrative to explain God’s wrath at Sodom and Gomorrah are found in Ezekiel 16:
“49. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it.” (RSV)
Homosexuals per se are not mentioned either in the original story of Sodom and Gomorrah or in later biblical explanations. Linguistic scholars of Koine, Aramaic, classical Greek, Latin, and Hebrew convincingly argue “temple prostitutes” and being unclean during religious ceremonies–not homosexuals per se were the topic of biblical discussions regarding “unnatural” sexual practices.121 It is unlikely St. Paul or the rabbinical scholars he studied understood the relationship between differences in brain anatomy and natural sexual orientation. In biblical times, natural sexual practices based on brain sex/gender would have appeared unnatural–particularly because procreation was not involved. It has been argued that St. Paul may have been condemning heterosexuals who engage in homosexual behavior (e.g., Ted Haggard, etc.). How a professed former homosexual could pronounce a total cure and heterosexuality on behalf of Rev. Haggard is unsupported by objective data. St. Paul writing to the Romans who were surrounded by idolatry and pagan religions (Romans 1.23-32) appears to renew and augment the Old Testament prohibition against homosexual behavior found in Leviticus 20: “13. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.” (RSV) The use of “abomination” in the Bible in both Hebrew and Greek referred to sacred ceremonies, idolatry, and pagan worship.
Today, mainstream churches express the belief that homosexual acts, not homosexuals, are “sinful.”122 While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints adopts the same position, the Book of Mormon fails to mention homosexuality. In the United States and in other countries, the Metropolitan Community Church has pastors ministering predominantly to Gays. Among several protestant religions, Quakers, Unitarians, United Church of Christ, United Methodist Church, Disciples of Christ, Presbyterian Church U.S.A., Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, Episcopal Church, etc. accept homosexuals and lesbians as congregants and sometimes clerics. Most Jewish synagogues in the United States fully accept homosexuals as congregants and rabbinical scholars. Many Christian churches oppose discrimination against homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered individuals and promote acceptance of same-sexed couples.
Evangelical Christian scholars state:
“Christian canon law laid down penalties [for homosexual behavior] ranging from nine years’ penance to permanent excommunication. In general, the [early Christian] church treated homosexuality as a sin needing spiritual cure rather than a crime for magistrates to punish. … In [the words of the preeminent theologian] Karl Barth’s phrase, much homosexual inclination is ‘moral malady'; it is no more to be blamed than left handedness or color blindness. . . . An alert church will not ostracize but befriend those whose constitution and circumstances make Christian living harder for them than for most.”123
The Roman Catholic Church, while eschewing homosexual acts, indicates homosexuality is innate and tells parents not to force change oriented therapies upon their children. Far from being anti-homosexual, the Vatican Declaration on Sexual Ethics exhorts pastors to be understanding of homosexuals and to include them in the communion of worship.124 The Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith advised American Bishops to fight laws extending civil rights to homosexuals. The Congregation stated, “Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.”125 Before becoming Pope, while head of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, Pope Benedict the XVI publicly stated “homosexuality is evil.” Still, American Roman Catholic Bishops have adopted a much more accepting attitude toward sexual minorities.
To the Religious Right homosexuals are an affront to the nuclear family and “family values.” Family accepted homosexuals are major contributing members to their nuclear families. Research shows that homosexual parents are as effective as heterosexuals in parenting and that living in a Gay household lacks influence on the sexual orientation or psycho-social adjustment of children.126 Many jurists appear to use the classical “traditional family” as their model in second-parent adoption cases.127 Although religious motivation appeared to have a negative influence on some, pre-service elementary teacher’s attitudes towards gay and lesbian parents appeared increasingly accepting.128 Same-sexed affirmation and commitment ceremonies, much like marriages, are performed by some religious groups and individuals. Allowing Gay couples to marry is seen by many as a way to decrease promiscuity, increase monogamy among Gays, and promote a healthy view of homosexuals. Marriage between same-sexed couples is accepted in some states and not others, and in some culturally advanced countries.
The Religious Right, through Exodus International and PFOX (Parents and Friends of Ex-homosexuals), support their views using a pseudo-journal, The Journal of Human Sexuality,129 consisting of an anti-homosexual diatribe using argumentum ad hominem, half-truths, deceptions, and articles from questionable sources, use flawed research of found in some mainstream vetted research, selectively quote from legitimate sources. Among many professional bodies, the American Psychiatric and Psychological Associations have condemned Exodus International and similar organizations for giving false hope to ego-dystonic homosexuals desiring to become heterosexual. While stating many living the “homosexual lifestyle” have become heterosexual through “reparative” or “Christian conversion” therapy,130 Exodus International and others offer no reliable or valid scientific evidence of these metamorphoses and refuse long-term follow-up studies. A study which does not distinguish between male pseudohomosexuals and natural homosexuals indicated that 11 men changed sexual orientation as a result of “folk therapy” as part of a pentecostal experience.131 Many chapters of Exodus International have fallen by the way. “Two of Exodus International’s founders, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, fell in love and left the organization in 1979.”132
The Religious Right, exemplified by the Family Research Institute and Family Research Council, have a narrow self-righteous view of sexuality and use flagrant deceit and exceptionally questionable research methods (e.g., inadequate and biased subject selection, sampling methods, peer reviewed publishing, and data sources–followed by unsupported conclusions, conjecture, and speculation).133 Some defend their views by misrepresenting and dismissing a massive body of professional literature and scientific research.134 A look at their internet sources illustrates their facile use of illegitimate and legitimate research to create a hostile view of homosexuals. Other religions with ultra-right elements also show similar bias against homosexuals.135
Other Cultures and Traditions.
In many American Indian tribes, before the coming of Christian missionaries, cross-gendered individuals found wide acceptance (e.g., Kutenai, Crow, Mohave, Pawnee, Piegan, Omaha, Arapaho, Cheyenne, Cree, Sauateaux, Ute, Flathead, Maidu, Teton-Dakota, Cocopay, Kamia, Klamath, Navaho, Mohawk, Zuni, Chumash, Colorado, Yaavapai, Mono, Sioux, Pima, Ojibwa, Chippewa, Potawatomi, Shoshoni, Winnebago, Quinalt, Apache, Mandan, Blackfeet, Oglala, etc.). In early childhood, when cross-gendered interests and play were apparent, a feminized male child was reared among the tribal women and a masculinized female child among tribal men. Often, as an adult, “she” married a male tribal member and “he” became a chief or married a female tribal member.136 Among these tribes, the inward spirit, not outward anatomy, was the key to gender behavior and sexual expression. In differing cultures and geographic regions, among a few primitive tribes, homosexual activity is still part of ritual passage through puberty.137 The indigenous tribal acceptance of homosexuals and transsexuals was used by the Papacy to justify the murder of thousands in South America and Mexico. That Christ does not mention homosexual behavior in the Book of Mormon is most unusual as his visits among indigenous American peoples is the focus of Mormon scripture. In today’s society, homosexual, bisexual, and sexual uncertainty appear to be higher among American-Indian adolescents than comparable Caucasians138
Before Western influence in the orient, China and Japan accepted homosexuals and the cross-gendered. In the silk growing regions of China, lesbian liaisons were encouraged. During the Cultural Revolution, although homosexual behavior was not subject to legal condemnation, there were accounts of persecution of lesbian and male homosexual couples.139 Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, etc., not coming from the middle eastern patriarchal tradition, have always had little or nothing to say about sexual orientation. In Hindu law, while adult females can be severely punished for seducing a young female, nothing is said about punishment of male homosexuals.
The views of ex gays, their teachings, and their “reform” programs are very dangerous. Queerty, I get that this is a news site and all, but I really wish you would not give people like this a platform from which to speak.
This Jacob Kindberg is yet one more zealot who confuses “marriage” with “holy matrimony”. A very annoying thing.
I went to college with his wife, and she’s one of the sweetest souls on the planet. This is disappointing.
@morphy0071 I am unclear as to what your point was.
murphy0071 is weird.
Do you see what Kindberg is saying? His church is the ONLY church. You Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, and other non-fundamentalists are going to Hell. This is why I hate Fundamentalism. They follow a heretical doctrine of exclusion.
@murphy0071: Since when does God approve of plagiarism?
This poor guy is the epitome of what religion can do to a good guy who doesn’t know any better and is the product of his environment and his raising. I feel sorry for him. In 2 years he’ll be regretting all of this when he meets the right guy.
When someone starts with the idea of the fall of man and “sin,” it’s all downhill from there. It grieves my soul that there are gay men who would see this video and feel like they must get right with Jesus ASAP. Sigh.
If this moron would ever actually try reading his bible, he might learn about the “special friend” of Jesus from the end of the book of John.
If he understands it, he will shut right up.
Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”
22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
It has nothing to do with physical death or violence against people with same-sex attractions.
That’s funny, because when Dennis Jernigan was vice president of Exodus International, he had to resign when it came out that he supported Jamaica’s anti-gay laws.
@murphy0071: This is Queerty, not Wikipedia.
This guy sees ALL pre-marital sex as sinful and supports that GLBT couples exist and he’s hung up on the word “marriage.”
Not that it’s good enough. But at least he’s not advocating gay bashing or saying gay marriage causes earthquakes and tornadoes and isn’t saying better dead than gay. That’s something. Not enough. But something.
News Alert: Christians Hate Homosexuals
oh dear….aren’t trailers supposed to inspire you to want to watch the entire film. FAIL! If that the best they can do in the trailer I can’t comprehend how boring the rest of it must be. Can’t see this documentary getting any awards of significance.
The “marriage is owned by Christianity” line of reasoning really needs to be shot down.
Right Wing Ultra Conservative Christians want and EXPECT hetero couples to get married… whether the couple is Christian or not! Are they upset about two Muslims getting married? Two atheists? They don’t care at all just so long as it’s heterosexual. If they truly believed that a marriage was “between a man, a woman, and God,” then any non-Christian marriages should be attacked, argued against, lobbied against, etc. SO FRUSTRATING!
And, I’M A CHRISTIAN! God, it’s even more irritating when it’s people waving MY flag who can’t think themselves out of a box…
There are so many wrongs in this movie.
Okay, this is why I honestly hate thinking of myself as Christian, because of people like this.
I believe in God. I believe that Jesus died for our sins. I don’t agree with most of the things in the Bible. God has never turned his back on me, or he’d push me to be atheist.
Marriage is not religious. It’s been around before religion was even a thing! Even if it was, it wouldn’t be Christian because Christianity was not the first religion, in fact it was founded because of Judaism. Marriage is the legal bond between two people who love each other. Why not let gays get married? They have less divorces than straights do.
To conclude…Christians don’t own the United States, so not everything has to be their way. Freedom of marriage should be added to the 1st Amendment.
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